dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: lightning on October 23, 2010, 05:31:10 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW94V9Q3qSM
Important annoucement
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Nice to see some of the scenes of Dromtug Rinpoche Lobsang Choekye Pelden at Shar Gaden. I even recognise many of the monks in some of the pictures.
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[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW94V9Q3qSM[/url]
Important annoucement
Thanks for the video link Lightning. Appreciates the pictures...Do post an english version if anyone comes across this video.
much thanks
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There is an interesting video in Chinese language of Dromtug (Jamseng/Jamsing) Rinpoche (Serkong Tritul Rinpoche's student) explaining the switch from Gelugpa to Kadhampa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpBjU7qydZo&feature=related
Rinpoche said that this is to revert to the pure tradition (without any controversy of the protectos issue in Gelugpa), but still "change the liquid or soup without changing the medicine" - meaning a change in form but not in content.
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There is an interesting video in Chinese language of Dromtug (Jamseng/Jamsing) Rinpoche (Serkong Tritul Rinpoche's student) explaining the switch from Gelugpa to Kadhampa.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpBjU7qydZo&feature=related[/url]
Rinpoche said that this is to revert to the pure tradition (without any controversy of the protectos issue in Gelugpa), but still "change the liquid or soup without changing the medicine" - meaning a change in form but not in content.
Yes, It is true that the medicine or the essence has not change, what is change is just the form. As mentioned that Dharma wheel will keep on rounding and in future the name of some sects will change. Most importantly, the essence of teachings is preserved.
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This isnt making sense to me what does he mean he has recovered Atisha's Kadampa ?
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Nice to see some of the scenes of Dromtug Rinpoche Lobsang Choekye Pelden at Shar Gaden. I even recognise many of the monks in some of the pictures.
Thanks TS and Kadhampa has pledged to donate financial support for the necessities to Shar Garden for ten years.
This isnt making sense to me what does he mean he has recovered Atisha's Kadampa ?
Ii is reverting back to the Kadhampa lineage, Although after the establishment of Gelug, Kadhampa may seems no exists, but the teachings of Kadhampa is still passed down until today. HH 25th Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is the reincarnation of Aitsha, while HH 18th Jamseng Rinpoche is the reincarnation of Dromtonpa. As mentioned in the youtube, sensitive issues within Gelugpa will ceased to exist after the recovery of Kadhampa Sect.
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Nice to see some of the scenes of Dromtug Rinpoche Lobsang Choekye Pelden at Shar Gaden. I even recognise many of the monks in some of the pictures.
Thanks TS and Kadhampa has pledged to donate financial support for the necessities to Shar Garden for ten years.
This isnt making sense to me what does he mean he has recovered Atisha's Kadampa ?
Ii is reverting back to the Kadhampa lineage, Although after the establishment of Gelug, Kadhampa may seems no exists, but the teachings of Kadhampa is still passed down until today. HH 25th Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is the reincarnation of Aitsha, while HH 18th Jamseng Rinpoche is the reincarnation of Dromtonpa. As mentioned in the youtube, sensitive issues within Gelugpa will ceased to exist after the recovery of Kadhampa Sect.
So how is this going to work are they going to disavow everything after Atisha ?
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Nice to see some of the scenes of Dromtug Rinpoche Lobsang Choekye Pelden at Shar Gaden. I even recognise many of the monks in some of the pictures.
Thanks TS and Kadhampa has pledged to donate financial support for the necessities to Shar Garden for ten years.
This isnt making sense to me what does he mean he has recovered Atisha's Kadampa ?
Ii is reverting back to the Kadhampa lineage, Although after the establishment of Gelug, Kadhampa may seems no exists, but the teachings of Kadhampa is still passed down until today. HH 25th Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is the reincarnation of Aitsha, while HH 18th Jamseng Rinpoche is the reincarnation of Dromtonpa. As mentioned in the youtube, sensitive issues within Gelugpa will ceased to exist after the recovery of Kadhampa Sect.
So how is this going to work are they going to disavow everything after Atisha ?
Haha, u r getting wrong idea, no disavow, but returning the original pure kadhampa... all lama guru still exist including Tsongkapa, just use back kadhampa's teaching
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Haha, u r getting wrong idea, no disavow, but returning the original pure kadhampa... all lama guru still exist including Tsongkapa, just use back kadhampa's teaching
@ Losang Shengping, U are right,
@ Zach W, Not to worry, there is no disavow. Besides many Lamas from Shar Garden make offerings to HH Dromtug Rinpoche in the youtube as seen.
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Haha, u r getting wrong idea, no disavow, but returning the original pure kadhampa... all lama guru still exist including Tsongkapa, just use back kadhampa's teaching
@ Losang Shengping, U are right,
@ Zach W, Not to worry, there is no disavow. Besides many Lamas from Shar Garden make offerings to HH Dromtug Rinpoche in the youtube as seen.
Okay :)
So what exact changes have they made other then the name ? Dorje shugden is no longer an issue does this mean he is no longer theyre main protector ? Still need a bit more info :)
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Ii is reverting back to the Kadhampa lineage, Although after the establishment of Gelug, Kadhampa may seems no exists, but the teachings of Kadhampa is still passed down until today. HH 25th Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is the reincarnation of Aitsha, while HH 18th Jamseng Rinpoche is the reincarnation of Dromtonpa. As mentioned in the youtube, sensitive issues within Gelugpa will ceased to exist after the recovery of Kadhampa Sect.
Are you saying that since the time of Lama Tsong Khapa and the establishment of Gelugpa monasteries Kadampa dharma has only existed as a secret tradition? That might come as a surprise to our Lamas.
And who recognized Serkong Tritul Rinpoche and Jamseng Rinpoche as Atisha and Dromtonpa?
Was it the Dalai Lama, Trijang Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche, Gaden Tri Rinpoche, Pabonka Rinpoche, Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche, Gonsar Tulku or Ganchen Rinpoche. Or maybe all of them?
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Ii is reverting back to the Kadhampa lineage, Although after the establishment of Gelug, Kadhampa may seems no exists, but the teachings of Kadhampa is still passed down until today. HH 25th Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is the reincarnation of Aitsha, while HH 18th Jamseng Rinpoche is the reincarnation of Dromtonpa. As mentioned in the youtube, sensitive issues within Gelugpa will ceased to exist after the recovery of Kadhampa Sect.
Are you saying that since the time of Lama Tsong Khapa and the establishment of Gelugpa monasteries Kadampa dharma has only existed as a secret tradition? That might come as a surprise to our Lamas.
And who recognized Serkong Tritul Rinpoche and Jamseng Rinpoche as Atisha and Dromtonpa?
Was it the Dalai Lama, Trijang Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche, Gaden Tri Rinpoche, Pabonka Rinpoche, Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche, Gonsar Tulku or Ganchen Rinpoche. Or maybe all of them?
Are you studying Gelug teachings? If you are not aware, just to let you know that the Lam Rim Lamp commentaries are composed by Atisha, then later Je Tsong Kha Pa further develop and compose Lam Rim. There are a lot of Kadam lineage and teachings from various masters are preserved till today in Gelug. Everyone studying Gelug knows that and it is no surprise at all.
As seen on the youtube that there are so many high rankings Lamas were sent to offer Katas to Serkong Tritul Rinpoche for the certification ceremony. Serkong Tritul Rinpoche studied and acquired various lineage teachings from many important and high ranking Lamas like Zemey Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche, Song Rinpoche, Guru Deva Rinpoche etc. Serkong Tritul Rinpoche certified Dromtug Rinpoche's incarnation and Dromtug Rinpoche was enthroned in Garden Monastery.
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Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is ANOTHER GREAT TULKU. The tulku system is alive and well. Very necessary and very beneficial for this precarious time.
All the great Tulkus of the lineage must RE-APPEAR proving the Tibetan Govt wrong if you practice Shugden, you get bad results. Only tulkus can prove this ridiculous statement wrong.
Tulkus rule.
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Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is ANOTHER GREAT TULKU. The tulku system is alive and well. Very necessary and very beneficial for this precarious time.
All the great Tulkus of the lineage must RE-APPEAR proving the Tibetan Govt wrong if you practice Shugden, you get bad results. Only tulkus can prove this ridiculous statement wrong.
Tulkus rule.
Cute - Thai monk! Tulkus rule indeed!
As long as a tulku is recognised according to the monastic tradition, then the tulku must be authentic.
If anyone has a Guru who has been recognised as a tulku according to the same tradition, then it cannot be that one tulku is a real one and one is not. It's similar to saying that the teachings and practices of one Lama are all correct - and not that some are correct and some are not.
I think that tulkus make perfect sense and can only be assessed by their results and not by just anyone's criteria, especially lay people! I do get a bit narked when some lay people get all high and mighty and start commenting on tulkus. I'm like on what basis are you talking about :P oh well.. om mani peme hung.
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Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is ANOTHER GREAT TULKU.
This may be true but I would still like to know which Lamas have formally recognised him as an emanation of Lord Atisha and Jamseng as Dromtonpa. The reason I ask is because a bit of research via Google has yielded some interesting information:
www.casotac.com/CASonline Articles/23122009_2.html (http://www.casotac.com/CASonline Articles/23122009_2.html)
www.casotac.com/CASonline Articles/26032010.html (http://www.casotac.com/CASonline Articles/26032010.html)
www.casotac.com/CASonline Articles/23122009.html (http://www.casotac.com/CASonline Articles/23122009.html)
Even on this forum other people have raised questions about the legitimacy of these two "lamas".
Post no.3 here: www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.msg7942#msg7942
mentions that Serkong Tritul Rinpoche only began claiming to be a great tulku when he first went to Taiwan and also refers to him being accused of rape.
These days anyone can say anything and it can be hard to find the truth and maybe what is written in the above links is also nonsense, I don't know, but it does cause doubts to arise.
You would reasonably expect the tulkus of Atisha and Dromtonpa to be held in very high esteem and not just by those who follow the Gelugpa tradition so if they are really genuine the names of the high Lamas who recognised and enthroned them should also be well known. Does anyone know who they are? And if they haven't been recognised by HH Dalai Lama, the Ganden Tripa, Trijang Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche or HH Karmapa or HH Sakya Trizin can anyone offer an explanation as to why not?
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Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is ANOTHER GREAT TULKU.
This may be true but I would still like to know which Lamas have formally recognised him as an emanation of Lord Atisha and Jamseng as Dromtonpa. The reason I ask is because a bit of research via Google has yielded some interesting information:
[url=http://www.casotac.com/CASonline]www.casotac.com/CASonline[/url] Articles/23122009_2.html ([url]http://www.casotac.com/CASonline[/url] Articles/23122009_2.html)
[url=http://www.casotac.com/CASonline]www.casotac.com/CASonline[/url] Articles/26032010.html ([url]http://www.casotac.com/CASonline[/url] Articles/26032010.html)
[url=http://www.casotac.com/CASonline]www.casotac.com/CASonline[/url] Articles/23122009.html ([url]http://www.casotac.com/CASonline[/url] Articles/23122009.html)
Even on this forum other people have raised questions about the legitimacy of these two "lamas".
Post no.3 here: [url=http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.msg7942#msg7942 ]www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.msg7942#msg7942 [/url]
mentions that Serkong Tritul Rinpoche only began claiming to be a great tulku when he first went to Taiwan and also refers to him being accused of rape.
These days anyone can say anything and it can be hard to find the truth and maybe what is written in the above links is also nonsense, I don't know, but it does cause doubts to arise.
You would reasonably expect the tulkus of Atisha and Dromtonpa to be held in very high esteem and not just by those who follow the Gelugpa tradition so if they are really genuine the names of the high Lamas who recognised and enthroned them should also be well known. Does anyone know who they are? And if they haven't been recognised by HH Dalai Lama, the Ganden Tripa, Trijang Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche or HH Karmapa or HH Sakya Trizin can anyone offer an explanation as to why not?
haha another wang appear. Don't hide anymore...
As mentioned and seen in the youtube in the past when times are not so chaotic in Gelugpa and the pictures are taken when with many high ranking Lamas (those are "heavy weight catergory"), 98th Garden Tripa and HHDL sent their representatives, to congratulate the Serkong Tritul Rinpoche's certification. Certification was done within Gelugpa, why would other sects Lamas come into the picture? Everyone can see here and why you cannot? Do you think that the high ranking Lamas in the pictures would anyhow offering white scarfs to HH Serkong Tritul Rinpoche ? You must be insulting them? Are they not real?
As for the rape case, Serkong Tritul Rinpoche has been accused and the woman accusing Him regretted her actions later and admitted that He is innocent and He was released from the police station. Do you know that these people involved for accusing High Ranking lama suffered from their own unspeakable consequences? There are some karma ripening can be as swift as lightning due to the severity of the damage done.Like what they say never plant the seed of negative karma. Are you going to plant some?
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Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is ANOTHER GREAT TULKU. The tulku system is alive and well. Very necessary and very beneficial for this precarious time.
All the great Tulkus of the lineage must RE-APPEAR proving the Tibetan Govt wrong if you practice Shugden, you get bad results. Only tulkus can prove this ridiculous statement wrong.
Tulkus rule.
Cute - Thai monk! Tulkus rule indeed!
As long as a tulku is recognised according to the monastic tradition, then the tulku must be authentic.
If anyone has a Guru who has been recognised as a tulku according to the same tradition, then it cannot be that one tulku is a real one and one is not. It's similar to saying that the teachings and practices of one Lama are all correct - and not that some are correct and some are not.
I think that tulkus make perfect sense and can only be assessed by their results and not by just anyone's criteria, especially lay people! I do get a bit narked when some lay people get all high and mighty and start commenting on tulkus. I'm like on what basis are you talking about :P oh well.. om mani peme hung.
Thanks to both WB and Thaimonk for speaking up ;)
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As mentioned and seen in the youtube in the past when times are not so chaotic in Gelugpa and the pictures are taken when with many high ranking Lamas (those are "heavy weight catergory"), 98th Garden Tripa and HHDL sent their representatives, to congratulate the Serkong Tritul Rinpoche's certification. Certification was done within Gelugpa, why would other sects Lamas come into the picture? Everyone can see here and why you cannot? Do you think that the high ranking Lamas in the pictures would anyhow offering white scarfs to HH Serkong Tritul Rinpoche ? You must be insulting them? Are they not real?
As for the rape case, Serkong Tritul Rinpoche has been accused and the woman accusing Him regretted her actions later and admitted that He is innocent and He was released from the police station. Do you know that these people involved for accusing High Ranking lama suffered from their own unspeakable consequences? There are some karma ripening can be as swift as lightning due to the severity of the damage done.Like what they say never plant the seed of negative karma. Are you going to plant some?
Wow Lightning you sure ask a lot of common sense questions which I could not agree more.
And like what Thai Monk said...
Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is ANOTHER GREAT TULKU. The tulku system is alive and well. Very necessary and very beneficial for this precarious time.
All the great Tulkus of the lineage must RE-APPEAR proving the Tibetan Govt wrong if you practice Shugden, you get bad results. Only tulkus can prove this ridiculous statement wrong.
I think we are very lucky at this day and age that we can experience the Tulku system. The fact it's still kept alive and continues is a proven track record that shows us, not just to Buddhist but even non Buddhist that great beings does exist and can come back. The mind continues. It also shows us that the source, the lineage is authentic and does not miraculously appear from no where. Yes and it also proves to all those who says DS is evil, then Why are all these practicing Lamas back. Shouldn't they born be in lower realms?
I also agree with WB
I think that tulkus make perfect sense and can only be assessed by their results and not by just anyone's criteria, especially lay people!
At the end of the day we just really need to look at the results. Really what are these Tulkus doing? Spreading the Dharma, benefiting many, helping others?
If Serkong Tritul Rinpoche and Jamseng Rinpoche are turning the wheel of Dharma and benefiting thousands, then they must be REAL and definitely way way better then me, a lay person who benefits no one, definitely not as much as them :).
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Dear lone Hermit,
I would like to kindly to invite you to a debate and please kindly answer the following questions:
1) Can we take refuge to the worms feasting in a pool of feces?
2) Can we take refuge to Buddha's Sariras?
3) Is no self is emptiness?
These questions may look ordinary but they are not easy to answer and you may want to seek for assistance from Geshes and Rinpoches that you may know.
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Wow Lightning you sure ask a lot of common sense questions which I could not agree more.
Muahaha... I get your joke ;D I have to ask a lot of common sense questions in answering to non-common sense questions.
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Dear lone Hermit,
I would like to kindly to invite you to a debate and please kindly answer the following questions:
1) Can we take refuge to the worms feasting in a pool of feces?
2) Can we take refuge to Buddha's Sariras?
3) Is no self is emptiness?
These questions may look ordinary but they are not easy to answer and you may want to seek for assistance from Geshes and Rinpoches that you may know.
You are right these are not easy questions to answer. They are also completely irrelevant to the present discussion.
However "which high Gelug lamas currently recognize Serkong Tritul and Jamseng as Atisha and Dromtonpa" is a very simple question and I wonder why you cannot answer it?
Serkong Tritul has rediscovered "pure Kadampa" and in seeking to establish a new tradition separate from the Gelugpas (who according to everyone else have for nearly 700 years been the legitimate spiritual heirs and holders of the Kadampa lineages) is suggesting that in some way the Gelug tradition is impure or corrupt. As I said before this would probably come as a surprise to most of our Lamas. And does it mean we have all been following a degenerate and mistaken spiritual path all along?
Serkong Tritul has abandoned the practice of the Protector and seems to use the continued propitiation of him as the basis for his decision to re-establish the pure Kadampa tradition:
www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=41.msg2886#msg2886
Maybe he is 100% correct but given the doubts about his authenticity I think some real evidence as to the divine status he accords himself and his main disciple is a very reasonable request. You can make whatever claim you like but where's the proof?
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You can give DEFINITIVE proof he is not who he is.
The debate never ends.
If Gaden had recognized him as tulku. Then he is. The end.
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Gaden is our mother monastery - founded by Je Tsongkhapa - who established the Gelugpa tradition. It was also built by Kyabje Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen, who was the previous incarnation of our sacred Protector, Dorje Shugden. So if Gaden monastery endorses Serkong Tritul Rinpoche, i definitely have no objection to their recognition!
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You are right these are not easy questions to answer. They are also completely irrelevant to the present discussion.
However "which high Gelug lamas currently recognize Serkong Tritul and Jamseng as Atisha and Dromtonpa" is a very simple question and I wonder why you cannot answer it?
Dear Lone Hermit aka Wang,
These questions has high relevancy to the present discussion, as to certify whether you fit to criticize someone else by gauging your level of Dharma understanding. You had unanimously admitted defeat by admitting that the questions are not easy to answer reflected that you do not have any true understanding in Buddhism, let alone to criticize someone above you. I can pick up a few aunties who have been attending classes regularly able to answer one or two of the above questions.
You are alike a blind person trying to debate and tell other people that an elephant is thin, base on just touching its tail only. A truly learned Geshe is able to answer any Dharma questions without flinching. I am presenting you the opportunity to ask anyone around you to answer the poised questions.
Everyone here including WB and Thaimonk can see that the high ranking Lamas had offered scarfs to HH Serkong Tritul Rinpoche during the certification. As to whom had certified Serkong Tritul Rinpoche, I may let you know in due course. Do I have to repeat myself again that Jamseng Rinpoche was certified by Tritul Rinpoche and had been enthroned in Garden monastery?
Serkong Tritul has rediscovered "pure Kadampa" and in seeking to establish a new tradition separate from the Gelugpas (who according to everyone else have for nearly 700 years been the legitimate spiritual heirs and holders of the Kadampa lineages) is suggesting that in some way the Gelug tradition is impure or corrupt. As I said before this would probably come as a surprise to most of our Lamas. And does it mean we have all been following a degenerate and mistaken spiritual path all along?
Excuse me, it is recovery of Kadhampa sect, NOT rediscovery. Kadhampa is recovered in 2008 due to the sensitive issues present within Gelugpa. Quit your acting and by now everyone or most of us even here including you understand about the present status of Gelugpa.
Je Tsong Kha Pa see the ultimate benefit for the sentient beings to establish a new sect out of his previous old sect is also due to the corruption in the previous one. He had re-organized and refined teachings ever since the establishment of Gelugpa. So are you going to criticize Je Tsong Kha Pa for establishment of new Buddhist sect? As mentioned in the youtube by Dromtug Rinpoche, it is changing the soup base without changing the medicine.
Serkong Tritul has abandoned the practice of the Protector and seems to use the continued propitiation of him as the basis for his decision to re-establish the pure Kadampa tradition:
www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=41.msg2886#msg2886
Maybe he is 100% correct but given the doubts about his authenticity I think some real evidence as to the divine status he accords himself and his main disciple is a very reasonable request. You can make whatever claim you like but where's the proof?
Again have you seen the Lamas offering of scarfs from Shar Garden to Dromtug Rinpoche? There is a difference between choosing not to practice and total deny or reject of the Dorje Shugden? Kadhampa is the former. I can choose to buy noodles, does not means that I dislike eating rice. (I guessed I have to talk layman terms to you, so that I don't have to repeat myself)
Dear lone Hermit,
I would like to kindly to invite you to a debate and please kindly answer the following questions:
1) Can we take refuge to the worms feasting in a pool of feces?
2) Can we take refuge to Buddha's Sariras?
3) Is no self is emptiness?
These questions may look ordinary but they are not easy to answer and you may want to seek for assistance from Geshes and Rinpoches that you may know.
You have been repeating questions which i had already answered, so I am kindly repeating my challenge to you for a Dharma debate base on the three questions poised as above. Let's challenge on teachings and do not disappoint me, unless you do admit defeat that you do not have the ability or the right to criticize.
I hope that you do not ask non common sense questions anymore or repeated questions that have answered before.
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I have been busy but I didn't know the forum has been quite bustling with activity. This thread caught my eye and I briefly read through the entries and I must say it has always boiled down to us questioning the recognition of High Lamas. Serkong Tritul Rinpoche was recognised by Gaden Monastery and I am sure that means a High Lama or elder Lama has approved of this incarnation so there is not need to doubt. Well, that is my opinion and I really like what Thaimonk said,
You can give DEFINITIVE proof he is not who he is.
The debate never ends.
If Gaden had recognized him as tulku. Then he is. The end.
But anyway, so how would you answer the 3 questions, lightning? I think I wouldn't take refuge in worms and sariras or relics but I will hold sariras sacred because only a highly attained master can leave such traces after their passing. The relics allows us to tap into his blessing so we open our own karmic dispositions for Dharma.
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Hi, everybody...
Because got many people aganist Dharmaraja Serkong Tritul Rinpoche practice Shugden and after that recover Kadhampa, so they create a lot of paste sensitive issue, feel free to access kadhampa in facebook, by enter the following links, there are a lot of reply from Tritul Rinpoche about all misunderstand issues.
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=100214993376918&id=164038393608279
Some of the lama that defame Tritul Rinpoche already passed away because of karma.
Read more at :
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=100214993376918&id=164038393608279
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The woman that say Tritul Rinpoche rape her, already die due to cancer, although she ask Tritul Rinpoche for Apologize, Tritul Rinpoche was forgive her...
But finally, karma.........
The woman is ask to harm Tritul Rinpoche by a lama who against practising of Shugden, if it is not mistake....
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Dear lone Hermit,
I would like to kindly to invite you to a debate and please kindly answer the following questions:
1) Can we take refuge to the worms feasting in a pool of feces?
2) Can we take refuge to Buddha's Sariras?
3) Is no self is emptiness?
These questions may look ordinary but they are not easy to answer and you may want to seek for assistance from Geshes and Rinpoches that you may know.
You are right these are not easy questions to answer. They are also completely irrelevant to the present discussion.
However "which high Gelug lamas currently recognize Serkong Tritul and Jamseng as Atisha and Dromtonpa" is a very simple question and I wonder why you cannot answer it?
Serkong Tritul has rediscovered "pure Kadampa" and in seeking to establish a new tradition separate from the Gelugpas (who according to everyone else have for nearly 700 years been the legitimate spiritual heirs and holders of the Kadampa lineages) is suggesting that in some way the Gelug tradition is impure or corrupt. As I said before this would probably come as a surprise to most of our Lamas. And does it mean we have all been following a degenerate and mistaken spiritual path all along?
Serkong Tritul has abandoned the practice of the Protector and seems to use the continued propitiation of him as the basis for his decision to re-establish the pure Kadampa tradition:
www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=41.msg2886#msg2886
Maybe he is 100% correct but given the doubts about his authenticity I think some real evidence as to the divine status he accords himself and his main disciple is a very reasonable request. You can make whatever claim you like but where's the proof?
This forum does not encourage the criticism of lamas. You are in NO POSITION to judge whether a lama is authentic or not. You yourself do not have to be a dharma 'police', nor are you a monk, nor are you a religious/monastic authority. So you have no right to judge another teacher or try to forum continuously about one lama you seem obsessed on defaming. Practice Lojong, read Lam Rim and take a breather. Relax please. .
Gaden Jangtse Monastery had no doubts about Serkong Tritul Rinpoche's authenticity. So you do not need to override their decisions. You cannot be right and 1,500 sangha in Gaden Jangtse are wrong. Even the representatives of the Dalai Lama attended his enthronement ceremony in Gaden Jangtse which means he had approval of the Dalai Lama at the time of his enthronement.
Mana
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Gaden Jangtse Monastery had no doubts about Serkong Tritul Rinpoche's authenticity. Even the representatives of the Dalai Lama attended his enthronement ceremony in Gaden Jangtse which means he had approval of the Dalai Lama at the time of his enthronement.
So there must be a letter signed by Gaden Tri Rinpoche and all the Abbots of Gaden Jangste establishing him as the reincarnation of Atisha. This would also include the seal of the Dalai Lamas Private Office. Any chance of posting a copy online?
I agree it is possible Serkong Tritul is a great tulku and it is also possible he is an emanation of Atisha. I hope he is. There is nothing this world needs more than authentic dharma teachers and I will definitely seek him out and offer prostrations and white silk scarf if that turns out to be true. Unfortunately I've been around the dharma long enough to know that there are many fake tulkus and many self appointed "high lamas". After all it's just a name and who can really prove it one way or the other. It's why all of the Tibetan schools have a specific process established to verify the authenticity of so called reincarnate lamas. When it's done properly in accordance with the tradition it gives a degree of certainty to such claims.
Here we are not talking about some low ranking lama from a monastery in a village ouside Lhasa. This is someone who is supposedly the reincarnation of [probably] the second most important figure in the historical transmission of Buddhism from India to Tibet without whom there would never have been Kadampa buddhism or the Gelugpa tradition. Yet there is not one Lama with the required authority who has recognized Serkong Trituls claims, or if there is for some strange reason no one is able to tell me his name. Why not?
I haven't posted on this thread with the intention of denigrating Serkong Tritul or anyone else but when someone uploads a video to Youtube and says the lamas shown are the tulkus of two of the most important teachers in the history of Tibetan buddhism it seems reasonable to investigate such claims quite carefully. I did that via Google and discovered doubts and controversy concening both and unfortunately no one here has so far been able to provide any credible evidence that they really are reincarnations of Atisha and Dromtonpa.
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The woman that say Tritul Rinpoche rape her, already die due to cancer, although she ask Tritul Rinpoche for Apologize, Tritul Rinpoche was forgive her...
But finally, karma.........
The woman is ask to harm Tritul Rinpoche by a lama who against practising of Shugden, if it is not mistake....
as extracted from guestbook:
(2540) Wei Da
28 October 2010 18:19:26
It is so dangerous to accuse lamas especially if we can't check, like the forum post on Serkong Tritul Rinpoche the lady who accused him of rape. if the accusations are not true only negative karma awaits that person.
Better to give the benefit of the doubt. To be safe rather than sorry. I chose to view His Holiness to have his reasons to create the ban for Dorje Shugden.
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Gaden Jangtse Monastery had no doubts about Serkong Tritul Rinpoche's authenticity. Even the representatives of the Dalai Lama attended his enthronement ceremony in Gaden Jangtse which means he had approval of the Dalai Lama at the time of his enthronement.
I haven't posted on this thread with the intention of denigrating Serkong Tritul or anyone else but when someone uploads a video to Youtube and says the lamas shown are the tulkus of two of the most important teachers in the history of Tibetan buddhism it seems reasonable to investigate such claims quite carefully. I did that via Google and discovered doubts and controversy concening both and unfortunately no one here has so far been able to provide any credible evidence that they really are reincarnations of Atisha and Dromtonpa.
Lone Hermit,
Please visit the Forum house rules if you haven't and abide by it.
If you are so concerned to find out if these lamas are incarnations of Atisha and Dromtonpa then please continue to research to find proofs (as you are doing already) somewhere else which will clear your doubts.
Many forum members have answered your question via inferential logic and have respectfully asked you to not judge other lamas due to the karmic consequences.
thank you
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Hi, sorry for the lack of posts lately. I have been really snowed under with a lot of work.
Upon returning to the Forum, I got very confused when reading this thread. But after I did my own further reading on this topic, I finally understood what Lightning meant with the words, "...another Wang appeared, don't hide anymore."
This very same topic raised by Lone Hermit really sounds so similar to a past discussion raised by forum member named Wang back in April 2009.
Even then, the answers were already clearly given by other forum members - but still, Wang was not satisfied and may be just did not want to accept. History repeats itself.
I really liked what Mountains and TK replied to Wang's insistence on asking the same rather irrelevant questions. I used the word, 'irrelevant' here because out of everything that Serkong Tritul Rinpoche has achieved - i.e.
1) Being recognised in Gaden Jangtze Monastery before being expelled because Rinpoche refused to give up his Dorje Shugden practice
2) Building a huge monastery with Dorje Shugden that can house 1000 monks or more in Kathmandu, Nepal
3) Sponsoring monks in Shar Gaden
and the list goes on -
Out of everything this Rinpoche has done, Wang can only choose to speculate on the subject matter of a scandal. This really puzzles me, because I do ask myself - how does this really help any of us here and educate us further?
Most of all, how does this contribute to this website or Forum?
I shall post the replies made by others in April 2009 because their words resonate with my thoughts. I think enough has been said and written. And it is clear when some people are just not interested in real education, information but are more focussed on 'speculating rumours and gossips'.
This was posted by someone named Mountains -
Reply #2 on: April 21, 2009, 06:04:01 AM »
Dear Dharmapal,
Over ten years back, Serkong Tritul Rinpoche took his disciple Jamsing Rinpoche to Gaden Jangtze Monastery to be enthroned. So they were both Tulkus (Rinpoches) of Gaden Jangtze Monastery. Because of the Dorje Shugden ban, Tritul and Jamsing refuse to give up the practice making them the 'enemy' and target of the Tibetan exile govt. Especially more so, because Tritul's organization have very powerful and wealthy financial patrons allowing them to engage in tremendous building projects attracting the jealousy of the Tibetan Govt in exile branding them as traitors by accusing them of taking money from the Chinese Govt. Well they are not the only very wealthy Tibetan Buddhist Organization in the world. And just because you have good patrons, doesn't mean you take money from the Chinese Govt. Hence the Tibetan Govt in exile tries to blacklist them by accusing them of money from China. They want the Tibetan people against them by branding them as traitors.
Recently around 3 weeks ago, Jamsing Rinpoche (sanctioned by Serkong Tritul Rinpoche) went to Shar Gaden Monastery in South India to do the enthronement ceremony with much offerings. Jamsing Rinpoche also offered enough money for breakfast, lunch and dinner for all the Shar Gaden Monks for the next ten years.
If their organization has 'pulled' out from the Gelug lineage and stopped their Dorje Shugden practices, they would never 'patronize' Shar Gaden Monastery. Or even have a enthronement ceremony done there.
So perhaps Serkong Tritul Rinpoche said he stopped practicing to throw people off track so when he establishes centres, temples, get licenses, permits, etc, he would have 'less' obstacles.
Many Gelug Lamas claim they have stopped the practices, but in actuality they have not and are doing in secrecy. Even their close students do not know.
Another small point is that if you look at the painting on the wall of Serkong Tritul's monastery in Nepal, on this thread, he is having the 5 visions of Lama Tsongkapa painted. If he had given up on Gelug, he would not have Tsongkapa painted and so prominently.
His centre in New Zealand (home page of this site), the central image/statue is lama Tsongkapa also. Not Atisha. Not that there is anything wrong with having Atisha as their central image as Tsongkapa is an incarnation of Atisha with the same mindstream. But the 'signs' of them not being Gelugpa anymore are not strongly there.
These are my thoughts, and what I have heard from very reliable sources. Thank you very much.
This is a well written reply posted by TK on the same thread in 2009.
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2009, 04:48:06 AM »
Dear Wang,
I hope you have joined this wonderful forum for a good motivation.
We are here to learn more, not to create more schisms. I am not against the Dalai lama. I am not against China. I am not into Gelug or other sect's politics. I wish to have a support platform for the practice of HOLY DORJE SHUGDEN. This is why we are here.
I wish to express my voice that all religious practice should have no repression including Dorje Shugden's.
1. Your link doesnt help. I am not Serkong Tritul's student.
2. Serkong Tritul may or may not have cohabitated with a woman. But it does not faze me even if he did.
3. He is still doing great works, doing great building works and sponsoring the Dorje Shugden movement tremendously. He is a great force in the Buddhist world and has many sponsors that support his work. The sponsors/patrons have examined him and greatly believe in him. His work is growing faster and bigger. No one can bring him down now although many have tried.
4. He does 100 great works and maybe 1 or 2 are not permissable in our subjective eyes, but we should focus on the other works. Why always focus on the negative which is samsara's nature.
5. Which of us has not sinned. Serkong Tritul has done more for the growth of Dorje Shugden's lineage more than me and you. So we should rejoice or at least just pray. We can never do as much as he does. So instead of putting energy into bad-mouthing him, we should put more energy into practice and bringing dharma to others.
6. I don't enjoy these types of posts. It explains nothing and it just throws sex in for controversy and attention. I do not appreciate it at all. I do not mean offense to you, but please think.
7. If you are involved in the other forums, I would advise you not to slander Serkong Tritul there also. It is bad karma. You achieve nothing. You get nowhere and you also bring new comers’ faith down. Why destroy other ppl's faith.
8. I heard that many of the Administrators of the gelu.org/bbs are students of Kejok Rinpoche. Rinpoche resides primarily in Australia. Kejok Rinpoche practises Dorje Shugden up till this very day.
Even his students not close to him will not know. His residence in Australia has his private chambers/bedroom that no one is allowed in except Rinpoche himself. That room contains Dorje Shugden image that is worshipped by Kejok Rinpoche. Kejok Rinpoche keeps in contact with other high rinpoches who practise Dorje Shugden till today but very discreetly. Kejok Rinpoche’s household (labrang) and Gangchen Rinpoche’s labrang are very close, friendly, and on excellent terms. And they call each other to do Dorje Shugden pujas from time to time in Nepal.
Kejok Rinpoche also has a house in Nepal near the Sanku pilgrimage site of Vajra Yogini deity in kathmandu and there is a geshe student staying there. That geshe student is very open to saying yes, kejok Rinpoche and their close members HAVE NOT GIVEN UP DORJE SHUGDEN AND CONTINUE THE PRACTICE. This geshe affirms the holy image of Dorje Shugden in Kejok Rinpoche's private residence in Australia.
But to the outside world, the non-inner circle students of Kejok Rinpoche fiercely say, Kejok Rinpoche has given up and does not practice. And they even criticize other Rinpoches/Geshes who practice and point fingers. I guess pointing fingers is a way of self protection.
The Tibetan Govt in exile has created this type of schism. So if you want to make an issue or something scandalous, then KEJOK RINPOCHE IS STILL PRACTICING DORJE SHUGDEN IN SECRET. That would be a bigger scandal in today's Tibetan Buddhist World than Serkong Tritul sleeping with a woman.
9. So I think Serkong Tritul knows what he is doing. I think we should leave him alone. I think we should just talk about dharma and practice in this website and the website you have posted in Chinese. Wouldn't you like to be a real dharma student promoting dharma instead of negative talk? I would.
10. The Tibetan Govt is very short sighted. Instead of ostracizing their own powerful lamas that can help the tibetan cause, they should rope them in and make friends..
Just think, the Tibetan govt in exile should become friends and rope in for their cause the below just to name a few:
Serkong Tritul Rinpoche
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
Yongyal Rinpoche
Gonsar Rinpoche
Pabongka Rinpoche
Dagom Ladrang
Gangchen Tulku Rinpoche
Denma Gonsa Ladrang
Jamsing Ladrang
Kundeling Rinpoche
Rabten Rinpoche
Tsawa Rinpoche
Zasep Rinpoche
Zimey Ladrang
Shar Gaden
Serpom Monastery
Jampa Ling Monastery
Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche
Zong Rinpoche
Domo Geshe Rinpoche
kejok Rinpoche
Geshe Tsultrim of Jangtze Monastery
Tashi Lunpo in Tibet
Gaden Dorje Shugden Oracle in USA
Sera Mey Dorje Shugden Oracle in Taiwan
HH Panchen Rinpoche
Sogpu Guru Deva Ladrang
Geshe Konchok
etc etc etc
It would be better to rope in the above ppl to spread dharma, talk about tibetan cultural identity in order to preserve it, create learning centers, art, temples, sponsor the tibetan cause even to help the tibetan govt make better connections with the Chinese govt.
FOR EXAMPLE: The tibetan govt in exile always accuse Gangchen Rinpoche of collaborating with the Chinese Govt against Tibetans. Untrue but that is what they say. They have many hate campaigns specifically against this great lama. You can see on their official websites.
They say Gangchen Rinpoche has very close ties with the Chinese Govt. Well that SHOULD BE THERE CUE TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH GANGCHEN RINPOCHE AND THRU GANGCHEN RINPOCHE MAKE BETTER RELATIONS WITH THE CHINESE GOVT FOR THE SAKE OF THE SIX MILLION REMAINING TIBETANS IN TIBET. Wouldn't that make more sense???
Gangchen Rinpoche should be made into the Tibetan Govt in exile's AMBASSADOR TO CHINA. When the Tibetans have so little ppl as it is and so little qualified ppl as it is, they should rope in these qualified persons. Why does dorje shugen's practice have to be paid by Chinese govt to practice? This practice was going on for 350 years before 1959.
I myself practice Dorje Shugden and he is my only protector and the foundation of my faith. But the Chinese govt doesn't pay me any money to practice.
I wish you the best Wang.
Tk
Personally, I enjoy reading posts which promote better understanding, that helps us by giving us educated information and that enriches our personal practice.
I am seriously not interested in gossips and speculating rumours which may or may not be true. Because it adds no value to this sacred space or any space for that matter.
All in all, I prefer to rejoice in the fact that Serkong Rinpoche has done a lot of good and just the sponsoring of Shar Gaden monastery alone is something wonderful for me. I am sure it had not been easy at all for Serkong Rinpoche to stand firm with his Dorje Shugden practice and suffer the fate of being expelled from Gaden Jangtze because of it.
Some people have really taken the time, effort and even used their own resources to create this sacred space for all of us to enjoy, be educated and learn - from the creators to the owners to the site, to the members of this forum who have repeatedly posted very useful and valuable information. Various people have all taken the time and trouble to answer plenty. And I sincerely do appreciate that.
This is a sacred space for real learning and understanding.
Like what TK wrote above - what is one's motivation when he or she joins this site? Well, to me, it is quite clear sometimes with how and what they write or post.
Thank you for those who have really taken the time to educate us and contribute to this space. Thank you for enriching our understanding and appreciation of our tradition and above all, our Protector Dorje Shugden.
Have a great weekend, everyone.
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Gaden Jangtse Monastery had no doubts about Serkong Tritul Rinpoche's authenticity. Even the representatives of the Dalai Lama attended his enthronement ceremony in Gaden Jangtse which means he had approval of the Dalai Lama at the time of his enthronement.
So there must be a letter signed by Gaden Tri Rinpoche and all the Abbots of Gaden Jangste establishing him as the reincarnation of Atisha. This would also include the seal of the Dalai Lamas Private Office. Any chance of posting a copy online?
I agree it is possible Serkong Tritul is a great tulku and it is also possible he is an emanation of Atisha. I hope he is. There is nothing this world needs more than authentic dharma teachers and I will definitely seek him out and offer prostrations and white silk scarf if that turns out to be true. Unfortunately I've been around the dharma long enough to know that there are many fake tulkus and many self appointed "high lamas". After all it's just a name and who can really prove it one way or the other. It's why all of the Tibetan schools have a specific process established to verify the authenticity of so called reincarnate lamas. When it's done properly in accordance with the tradition it gives a degree of certainty to such claims.
Here we are not talking about some low ranking lama from a monastery in a village ouside Lhasa. This is someone who is supposedly the reincarnation of [probably] the second most important figure in the historical transmission of Buddhism from India to Tibet without whom there would never have been Kadampa buddhism or the Gelugpa tradition. Yet there is not one Lama with the required authority who has recognized Serkong Trituls claims, or if there is for some strange reason no one is able to tell me his name. Why not?
I haven't posted on this thread with the intention of denigrating Serkong Tritul or anyone else but when someone uploads a video to Youtube and says the lamas shown are the tulkus of two of the most important teachers in the history of Tibetan buddhism it seems reasonable to investigate such claims quite carefully. I did that via Google and discovered doubts and controversy concening both and unfortunately no one here has so far been able to provide any credible evidence that they really are reincarnations of Atisha and Dromtonpa.
Dear Lone Hermit,
I hope that you would keep you words as to offer white scarfs to HH Dharmaraja Serkong Tritul Rinpoche, if you find out the truth. If you have been around long enough to understand that there is a strict protocol is being observed for High ranking Rinpoches to whom them would like to offer the scarfs to. If the Lama is not of a higher ranking or having better qualities, they would not anyhow offer the scarfs without knowing the background of the receiver? Pictures speaks a thousand words and shown that Lamas with extraordinary status came to congratulate Serkong Tritul Rinpoche's enthronment. Tritul is a tittle given to a reincarnated Garden Tripa Throne Holder and SerKong Rinpoche had been four times throne holder in His previous lifetimes. From the youtube pictures, every one here expect you unanimously agreed and recognized His certification for enthronement.
After seeing the youtube pictures to ask for Serkong Tritul Rinpoche's certificate to show online is as alike asking a lady to strip stark naked in front of you to prove that she is a real woman, which is quite uncouth behaviour. Besides you are asking a High ranking tulku not in a very appropriate manner. I cannot imagine anyone would have ask for HHDL for his certificate either to prove Himself. Whether HH Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is going provide his certificate is up to his discretion and not for you to demand. I mean that who are you to poise this kind of request?
In the past, Potowa was not certified either but everyone recongised Him as a Geshe. Song Rinpoche also did not have money to enthrone, but He was recongised as a High Ranking Living Buddha and had top His examinations and debates. I understand that certificate is a form assurance, but the complete mastery of Dharma cannot be measure by certificate giving alone and a person with such mastery is able provide flawless explanations on any given Dharma topics. Today I am grateful to have the lifetime opportunity to hear wonderful lessons on Bodicitta and seeing emptiness wisdom from both HH Serkong Tritul Rinpoche and HH Dromtug Rinpoche, which up till today to me, I find without peers. I want you to find any persons including Geshes that you know of and provide answers to compare between both answers, but it seems that you are not willing to do so.
In the past, Je Tsong Kha Pa had subdued Khedrup Je via teachings. Khedrup Je did not held any regards to Je Tong Kha Pa and sat beside Him as offered on the same level. Upon Je Tsong Kha Pa flawless explanation of teachings on Bodhicitta compared to what Khedrup Je had learnt. Khedrup Je had no choice and was very ashamed but to prostrate at the feet of Je Tsong Kha Pa.
Today there are a lot of information from internet may NOT be of reliable sources. Besides the sources you provided are mostly from people who go against Dorje Shugden and had many unfounded accusations. Do you know that the writer from the CAS did not know that on his same side, there are people from Maitreya Projects from HHDL's organizations are displaying the same Buddha Relics as the Buddha Relics Exhibition held by Kadhampa Association. The writer "happily" accused Dromtug Rinpoche for having so many fake, coloured balls relics which Maitreya Project are displaying are actually of same source. The Buddha relics have the ability to reproduce itself and had been replicating itself over 2500 years. Do you know what kind of karma will befall for accusing so many relics left by the Buddha Himself? Even one piece would be very severe enough to befall into hell fire?
Wang had been so light on ears to take side with the CAS articles, but upon showing the evidence to him, He shy away from this topic. Same thing, he even boldly pasted the link of scandal of the rape case in effort to further smear HH Serkong Rinpoche's reputation. I had adviced Wang to checked out from both parties and the actual background before coming to conclusion, but later it is found out that Rinpoche was released without charge very soon as the girl confessed that Rinpoche was innocent.
I felt both hair stand and heart ache upon terrible karma befalls on the people involved in the accusation. The writer of CAS has written his articles and boldly spread across the internet and many people follow suits, unknowingly he had dragged a lot of people to the doors of hell for upholding his own justice. The Lama is jealous of HH Serkong Tritul Rinpoche and plotted against him and suffered tragic outcome of his own karma in lightning speed. Seriously, I do not know what kind of karma will await for Wang, the CAS writer and the other people who denigrating High ranking Lamas.
Lone Hermit, I hope that you did not had the intention of denigrating Serkong Tritul Rinpoche. If yes, I advise you to take up Yamantaka empowerment which has the ability to cleanse the five heinous sins most effectively and do self initiation and other form of confessions everyday.
Thinking back again, If you desire, I may be able to arrange an interview a meeting between you and Dromtug Rinpoche to prove you, if He drops by your country. As Dromtug Rinpoche flies around the world to spread Dharma.
To clear the misunderstanding, HH Dharmaraja Serkong Tritul Rinpoche had decided to answer in a form Chinese article, but due to time taken and my disability to translate to English properly. I hope that the English articles will be out soon. Please kindly the below link with you are able to read Chinese and do not miss the interesting articles:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=100214993376918&id=164038393608279
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I have been busy but I didn't know the forum has been quite bustling with activity. This thread caught my eye and I briefly read through the entries and I must say it has always boiled down to us questioning the recognition of High Lamas. Serkong Tritul Rinpoche was recognised by Gaden Monastery and I am sure that means a High Lama or elder Lama has approved of this incarnation so there is not need to doubt. Well, that is my opinion and I really like what Thaimonk said,
You can give DEFINITIVE proof he is not who he is.
The debate never ends.
If Gaden had recognized him as tulku. Then he is. The end.
But anyway, so how would you answer the 3 questions, lightning? I think I wouldn't take refuge in worms and sariras or relics but I will hold sariras sacred because only a highly attained master can leave such traces after their passing. The relics allows us to tap into his blessing so we open our own karmic dispositions for Dharma.
Please kindly looked into the PM by me ;)
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Tritul Rinpoche is still quietly supporting Shar Gaden Monastery is the latest scoop. He might have 'given up' Dorje Shugden publicly but privately he supports Shar Gaden.
He has also sent over 100 young monks that are from his monastery in Nepal to be educated in Shar Gaden just 3 months back.
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Sad that even lamas with great institution and financial support also has to seemingly 'back off' and 'follow the rules' :(
Perhaps Tritul Rinpoche does have great respect for His Holiness and doesn't wish to make His Holiness and the government look bad. When will the good day come for Dorje Shugden to be in the open again. It's a long wait...
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I am a HUGE fan of this website. Some of the views on it does not match with mine. But so what? Where else better than here is there to go to? Why find differences in a few issues, why not find commonality with the huge similarities.
Anyway if I don't like it, I DON'T HAVE TO COME HERE, but where can I go? I am addicted to this site.
I sure can't set up something like this with the time, energy, money, knowledge, research, thousands of hours necessary.
So I am here to stay and my respect for this site grows all the time.
Mehtra
San Diego
(source: post from guestbook)