dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: LosangKhyentse on August 20, 2010, 11:18:59 AM
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If any of the Oracles of Dorje Shugden recognizes a tulku, I will trust and believe all the way. If there was no use for the Tulku system, Dorje Shugden would not entertain any inquiries. Also if the Tulku system was damaging, then of course, Dorje Shugden would not recognize any Tulkus.
The Tulku system is so very important within Tibetan Buddhism in general and within the Gelug system. We will die, we will reincarnate and we will take rebirth. So if we practice the tantras correctly, one of the side benefits is that we can control our rebirth. So two and two makes four. If we can take charge of our rebirth, then why not Tulkus.
Within Tulkus, there are many level of attainments also. Their ranks or height of their thrones do not always indicate their attainments. How far a tulku has progressed on the path in their previous lives is how much control they will have over their rebirths.
I for one, am all for the Tulku system which is alive, active and thriving. Many great Tulkus are able to return, be recognized and continue their work. It is very important for the Dorje Shugden lineage tulkus to return. It proves to everyone clearly that practicing Dorje Shugden does not bring negative states of rebirth. How can the worship of a Buddha such as Dorje Shugden bring damage in any way.
When we worship Dorje Shugden, we are worshipping Manjushri. Since we are worshipping Manjushri, we are connecting to all the matured wisdom of all Buddhas. Therefore the 7 limbs offered to Dorje Shugden is equal to offering the 7 limbs to all the Buddhas of the ten directions and three times. It is incredible merits just to offer one light or a single stick of incense to Dorje Shugden.
Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal. It would be the first text of it's kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and hence making it quick in attainments. I wish very much a text and practice for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a yidam would arise. I would IMMEDIATELY engage in the practice and await the festival of attainments to be gained in order to benefit others to happen.
tk
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If any of the Oracles of Dorje Shugden recognizes a tulku, I will trust and believe all the way. If there was no use for the Tulku system, Dorje Shugden would not entertain any inquiries. Also if the Tulku system was damaging, then of course, Dorje Shugden would not recognize any Tulkus.
The Tulku system is so very important within Tibetan Buddhism in general and within the Gelug system. We will die, we will reincarnate and we will take rebirth. So if we practice the tantras correctly, one of the side benefits is that we can control our rebirth. So two and two makes four. If we can take charge of our rebirth, then why not Tulkus.
Within Tulkus, there are many level of attainments also. Their ranks or height of their thrones do not always indicate their attainments. How far a tulku has progressed on the path in their previous lives is how much control they will have over their rebirths.
I for one, am all for the Tulku system which is alive, active and thriving. Many great Tulkus are able to return, be recognized and continue their work. It is very important for the Dorje Shugden lineage tulkus to return. It proves to everyone clearly that practicing Dorje Shugden does not bring negative states of rebirth. How can the worship of a Buddha such as Dorje Shugden bring damage in any way.
When we worship Dorje Shugden, we are worshipping Manjushri. Since we are worshipping Manjushri, we are connecting to all the matured wisdom of all Buddhas. Therefore the 7 limbs offered to Dorje Shugden is equal to offering the 7 limbs to all the Buddhas of the ten directions and three times. It is incredible merits just to offer one light or a single stick of incense to Dorje Shugden.
Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal. It would be the first text of it's kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and hence making it quick in attainments. I wish very much a text and practice for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a yidam would arise. I would IMMEDIATELY engage in the practice and await the festival of attainments to be gained in order to benefit others to happen.
tk
This would be entirely unnecessary.
Doje Shugden alredy exists as a Yidam, he's called Je Tsongkhapa. There are many self generation sadhanas already composed.
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This would be entirely unnecessary.
Doje Shugden alredy exists as a Yidam, he's called Je Tsongkhapa. There are many self generation sadhanas already composed.
Since Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being on his own, surely he can also exist as a yidam? Like Yamantaka - who i believe exists as a yidam as well as a protector?
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If any of the Oracles of Dorje Shugden recognizes a tulku, I will trust and believe all the way. If there was no use for the Tulku system, Dorje Shugden would not entertain any inquiries. Also if the Tulku system was damaging, then of course, Dorje Shugden would not recognize any Tulkus.
The Tulku system is so very important within Tibetan Buddhism in general and within the Gelug system. We will die, we will reincarnate and we will take rebirth. So if we practice the tantras correctly, one of the side benefits is that we can control our rebirth. So two and two makes four. If we can take charge of our rebirth, then why not Tulkus.
Within Tulkus, there are many level of attainments also. Their ranks or height of their thrones do not always indicate their attainments. How far a tulku has progressed on the path in their previous lives is how much control they will have over their rebirths.
I for one, am all for the Tulku system which is alive, active and thriving. Many great Tulkus are able to return, be recognized and continue their work. It is very important for the Dorje Shugden lineage tulkus to return. It proves to everyone clearly that practicing Dorje Shugden does not bring negative states of rebirth. How can the worship of a Buddha such as Dorje Shugden bring damage in any way.
When we worship Dorje Shugden, we are worshipping Manjushri. Since we are worshipping Manjushri, we are connecting to all the matured wisdom of all Buddhas. Therefore the 7 limbs offered to Dorje Shugden is equal to offering the 7 limbs to all the Buddhas of the ten directions and three times. It is incredible merits just to offer one light or a single stick of incense to Dorje Shugden.
Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal. It would be the first text of it's kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and hence making it quick in attainments. I wish very much a text and practice for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a yidam would arise. I would IMMEDIATELY engage in the practice and await the festival of attainments to be gained in order to benefit others to happen.
tk
I agree re if the tulku system was redundant, Dorje Shugden would not recognise tulkus via the oracle. I read that the oracular pronouncements are also confirmed by high Lamas, so to me, there seems to be check and balance.
The fact that tulkus are recognised continuously means that the tulkus play an important role and keep coming back to continue their previous lives' work. If we do not believe in the tulkus recognised by Dorje Shugden, it implies that we don't believe Dorje Shugden or the high Lamas who confirmed their recognition either.
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This would be entirely unnecessary.
Doje Shugden alredy exists as a Yidam, he's called Je Tsongkhapa. There are many self generation sadhanas already composed.
This would be unnecessary or not is not up to you or me. It is a request. Let Dulzin himself decide if it is unnecessary or necessary when the request is made. Maybe now a form of Dorje Shugden as a yidam would be necessary. Je Tsongkpa as a yidam does not have generation and completion stages and it is one of the lower tantras. So theoretically not able to bring us to enlightenment in one short lifetime. The lower tantras are practiced to remove immediate obstacles to enlightenment such as Medicine Buddha for disease, White Manjushri for quick wisdom, Vajrapani for removing obstacles. But then the higher tantras must be engaged for actual enlightenment.
Yamantaka, red manjushri, black Manjushri, White Manjushri, 13-deity Yamantaka, Yellow Manjushri exists. There are so many forms of Manjushri as a Yidam. They appear as an when needed. So nothing wrong if Manjushri Dorje Shugden appears as a full fledged annuttara tantra Yidam. If I have great faith in Dorje Shugden and he appears as a Yidam, I would practice him above other yidams immediately.
Other great tantric texts have been written by qualified masters, so this would require such a master. As these sadhanas are not scholastic pieces of work, they need someone of the highest calibre to write them. Who can write, I haven't any idea. But it would be great if Dulzin himself composes it through his oracles. Just like his divination text was composed through the oracle. Many people have recieved Avalokitesvara initiation while Dorje Shugden was in trance through Choyang Dulzin Kuten.
Yes, Yamantaka exists both as a yidam and protector. He can be worshipped/propitiated as both or either. So why not Shugden. Four Face Mahakala and Kalarupa are emanations of Manjushri also. There is no limit to Manjushri's emanations. As time progresses and there is a need, I am sure the compassionate Manjushri will appear in so many new forms unheard of . It is not for us to say yay or nay. Just rejoice.
It is up to others if they wish to practice Shugden as a yidam or not. But no one has the right to say right or wrong.
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My personal opinion is that any Enlightened Being / Buddha can appear as whatever they deem fit. Because there is simply no limit to what they can do or choose to emanate as.
The only limitation that exists is our perception.
I would also imagine that the existence great texts and scriptures should not stop other high great Lamas to stop composing more great texts and scriptures. Be it self generation sadhanas or not.
Why?
Because there is no limit to the delusions and varying needs of sentient beings.
As time passes on, the needs and desires of sentient beings also evolve.
If the newly composed texts serve to help a certain understand much easier or deeper, then that itself warrants the benefits of such compositions.
After all, all the highly attained Lamas are essentially the Tulkus and they are the recent incarnations of the great Masters who once composed all the texts of the past that we still use today. The Masters are of the same mental continuum of their past reincarnations. So, in this respect, I do not see what is wrong or different about this.
If these great Masters choose to compose new texts for the generations of practitioners tomorrow, then it is a very good thing.
As long as space remains and sentient beings remain, it is always necessary to find new ways and as many ways to help. Even if it requires a great Lama to compose new texts.
The point is to help as many people as possible. So, it may as well be very necessary.
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My personal opinion is that any Enlightened Being / Buddha can appear as whatever they deem fit. Because there is simply no limit to what they can do or choose to emanate as.
The only limitation that exists is our perception.
I would also imagine that the existence great texts and scriptures should not stop other high great Lamas to stop composing more great texts and scriptures. Be it self generation sadhanas or not.
Why?
Because there is no limit to the delusions and varying needs of sentient beings.
As time passes on, the needs and desires of sentient beings also evolve.
If the newly composed texts serve to help a certain understand much easier or deeper, then that itself warrants the benefits of such compositions.
After all, all the highly attained Lamas are essentially the Tulkus and they are the recent incarnations of the great Masters who once composed all the texts of the past that we still use today. The Masters are of the same mental continuum of their past reincarnations. So, in this respect, I do not see what is wrong or different about this.
If these great Masters choose to compose new texts for the generations of practitioners tomorrow, then it is a very good thing.
As long as space remains and sentient beings remain, it is always necessary to find new ways and as many ways to help. Even if it requires a great Lama to compose new texts.
The point is to help as many people as possible. So, it may as well be very necessary.
Helena,
I like what you said and what you wrote. You really are even minded and think through things. I can see some of the things you don't agree, yet you are open and willing to consider, share and learn. Wonderful energy you bring to this space.
tk
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Since Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being on his own, surely he can also exist as a yidam? Like Yamantaka - who i believe exists as a yidam as well as a protector?
To say that it is not necessary for DS to arise as a yidam is like saying that it is not "necessary" for Yamantaka to manifest as both a protector and Yidam. As Buddhas, they emanate in whatever form is necessary for the time and practitioners.
So of course DS can exist as a yidam, being a fully enlightened being. On his side, his mind is the same enlightened state whether we propitiate him as a protector or as a yidam. It is the difference in how we meditate upon him that "determines" if he is a yidam or a protector to us.
DS practice is of course just as holy and beneficial as Manjushri and Yamantaka's practice but is considered more "effective" because DS has manifested especially to counter the obstacles of this time and in that way is karmically "closer" to us.
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This would be entirely unnecessary.
Doje Shugden alredy exists as a Yidam, he's called Je Tsongkhapa. There are many self generation sadhanas already composed.
This would be unnecessary or not is not up to you or me. It is a request. Let Dulzin himself decide if it is unnecessary or necessary when the request is made. Maybe now a form of Dorje Shugden as a yidam would be necessary. Je Tsongkpa as a yidam does not have generation and completion stages and it is one of the lower tantras. So theoretically not able to bring us to enlightenment in one short lifetime. The lower tantras are practiced to remove immediate obstacles to enlightenment such as Medicine Buddha for disease, White Manjushri for quick wisdom, Vajrapani for removing obstacles. But then the higher tantras must be engaged for actual enlightenment.
Yamantaka, red manjushri, black Manjushri, White Manjushri, 13-deity Yamantaka, Yellow Manjushri exists. There are so many forms of Manjushri as a Yidam. They appear as an when needed. So nothing wrong if Manjushri Dorje Shugden appears as a full fledged annuttara tantra Yidam. If I have great faith in Dorje Shugden and he appears as a Yidam, I would practice him above other yidams immediately.
Other great tantric texts have been written by qualified masters, so this would require such a master. As these sadhanas are not scholastic pieces of work, they need someone of the highest calibre to write them. Who can write, I haven't any idea. But it would be great if Dulzin himself composes it through his oracles. Just like his divination text was composed through the oracle. Many people have recieved Avalokitesvara initiation while Dorje Shugden was in trance through Choyang Dulzin Kuten.
Yes, Yamantaka exists both as a yidam and protector. He can be worshipped/propitiated as both or either. So why not Shugden. Four Face Mahakala and Kalarupa are emanations of Manjushri also. There is no limit to Manjushri's emanations. As time progresses and there is a need, I am sure the compassionate Manjushri will appear in so many new forms unheard of . It is not for us to say yay or nay. Just rejoice.
It is up to others if they wish to practice Shugden as a yidam or not. But no one has the right to say right or wrong.
Dear Thaimonk
It never occurred to me that this is possible,...meaning we can actually request Dorje Shugden to appear as a Yidam. Now that you got me thinking along these lines,here are my thoughts...
Dorje Shugden is most beneficial as a Dharma Protector for us due to him manifesting specifically for this period of time, and karma then wouldn't his practice as a YIDAM (if he chose to appear in this form) be just as swift in us achieving attainments towards enlightenment?!
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Dorje Shugden is most beneficial as a Dharma Protector for us due to him manifesting specifically for this period of time, and karma then wouldn't his practice as a YIDAM (if he chose to appear in this form) be just as swift in us achieving attainments towards enlightenment?!
Sure thing. Do read the good recent sharing of teachings from honeydakini below which is about create a connection to WISDOM: the most necessary method for today's ailments, problems and sufferings.
Here you go. Time to top up on the wisdom merits everyone!
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=903.0
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My personal opinion is that any Enlightened Being / Buddha can appear as whatever they deem fit. Because there is simply no limit to what they can do or choose to emanate as.
The only limitation that exists is our perception.
I would also imagine that the existence great texts and scriptures should not stop other high great Lamas to stop composing more great texts and scriptures. Be it self generation sadhanas or not.
Why?
Because there is no limit to the delusions and varying needs of sentient beings.
As time passes on, the needs and desires of sentient beings also evolve.
If the newly composed texts serve to help a certain understand much easier or deeper, then that itself warrants the benefits of such compositions.
After all, all the highly attained Lamas are essentially the Tulkus and they are the recent incarnations of the great Masters who once composed all the texts of the past that we still use today. The Masters are of the same mental continuum of their past reincarnations. So, in this respect, I do not see what is wrong or different about this.
If these great Masters choose to compose new texts for the generations of practitioners tomorrow, then it is a very good thing.
As long as space remains and sentient beings remain, it is always necessary to find new ways and as many ways to help. Even if it requires a great Lama to compose new texts.
The point is to help as many people as possible. So, it may as well be very necessary.
Helena,
I like what you said and what you wrote. You really are even minded and think through things. I can see some of the things you don't agree, yet you are open and willing to consider, share and learn. Wonderful energy you bring to this space.
tk
I agree with you Helena. Dorje Shugden is manifested especially for this degenerated age. I reckon for those who said we do not need any more texts to be composed for this time and in the future is like saying, we do not need any research on new medicine or drugs to cure the ever evolving viruses that we face in the world today.
What cure the diseases in the past may not work efficiently now as the viruses continuously mutate to try to survive and harm us. It is like our ego, delusions, ignorance, and self cherishing mind that keep mutating to make us sink deeper into the viscious cycle of the 6 realms.
So if there is such a need for a new text to be composed for this age as it deems fit by Dorje Shugden, the same mind continuum of Wisdom Manjushri, for the practice by today's practitioners, I do not see why not.
Everyone wants more effective medication to cure our sickness and diseases FAST. A new medicine or drug made specially for today's viruses is like a new holy text/sadhana composed to bring realization faster at this degenerated age.
I am all for it.
Triesa.
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Wow! This is really interesting proposition for our beloved Protector. Since he is a fully enlightened Protector, that means he can also be technically be propitiated as a yidam. On top of that, since he is in a worldly form, that means efficacy and blessings would be heightened I think.
I don't think there are any other Yidam that are in a worldly form and his karmic affinity would be much stronger than any Yidams in their enlightened form. Well, that is what I am guessing. Hence, having Dorje Shugden as a Yidam would mean that spiritual attainments would come quicker than normal. I am really excited about this possible prospect. I really hope some attained Lama will compose this. :D
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I can totally see your point, Big Uncle.
It is precisely because of our immense degeneration that we have a karmic affinity with Dorje Shugden. If we were not so degenerated, we would be able to embrace any path. We would not need such a powerful and wrathful Protector. His powerful wrath is to counter our deep-seated degeneration.
It goes to show how much we have regressed as a species and a society.
With Dorje Shugden arising as a Yidam, we would be receiving the swiftest aid to gain ultimate Enlightenment.
Because Dorje Shugden is so quick, our path to realisation would also be expedited.
It seems in our degenerate times, whereby degeneration occurs at such alarming rate/speed, we do need the swiftest form of transformation - the express route to Enlightenment.
And if Dorje Shugden can do that for us - I would certainly welcome that with open arms and embrace it in a heart beat.
I do not want to waste any more time and stay in Samsara.
Any time spent trapped in Samsara is a second too long!
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In terms of efficacy as highest yoga tantra yidam, the best one would be the Solitary Yamantaka followed by 13 deities Yamantaka due to difference in the oral instructions as It has complete and clear instructions on illusion (father tantra) and clear light (mother tantra), holding a human impale on stick can eradicate 5 henious sins etc. in the saddhana itself. Without the highest yoga tantra yidams like Yamantaka, Heruka, Guhyasamaja etc., the empowerment of protectors would not be given expect Vaisravana(Normally comes with Vajrapani empowerment) Without the Yidams, the protectors would not respond to your wishes.
Whereas Dorje Shugden would be the uncommon protector for Gelupa teachings and He is considered the most effective Dharma protector. But of course the affinity between the protectors and the yogis varies. There is difference between the functions, the effect and the results for every Yidam that you practise.
In my own opinion, if one would take Dorje Shugden as Yidam, one will be guarded by Dorje Shugden closer with better protection. He would gives warning on possible pit holes beforehand. alike a mother guarding the only child. Of course, I agreed that His practice would bring swift attainments, but the only concern is that one must maintain pure samaya after taking up Dorje Shugden empowerment.
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This is not directed at Lightning per say, but he/she did bring up a good point about keeping good samaya.
My opinion is that keeping good samaya is crucial and essential for all practices. I dare say, it is the key to all practices. Hence, the stress on Guru Devotion.
Without good samayas, there will be nothing.
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The Tulku system is so very important within Tibetan Buddhism in general and within the Gelug system. We will die, we will reincarnate and we will take rebirth. So if we practice the tantras correctly, one of the side benefits is that we can control our rebirth. So two and two makes four. If we can take charge of our rebirth, then why not Tulkus.
It makes perfect sense. The reason why we cannot control our rebirths is because we cannot control our mind now. As such, we continue to generate negative karma, thus propelling us to take rebirth in the lower realms. By practising, we learn to control our minds and we control the kind of karma we generate. Thus logically, the side or indirect benefit is a better rebirth.
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DharmaDefender, very logical point you made above. Thank you. It is this logical link of cause and effect that makes Buddhadharma so attractive to people of today.
Related to the importance of the Tulku system, there is also logic for such a system to exist and continue. Highly attained Masters have dedicated lifetime after lifetime to Dharma work. As they take the form of mortals in our realm, they must leave. Therefore, to prevent their work from loosing pace whereby they need to start all over again at every rebirth, the Tulku system allows them to take off quickly and smoothly from where they left off with the same discliples and “tools”.
Looking at it this way, it is us (sentient beings trapped in samsara) who need the Tulku system more than the Tulkus themselves. Therefore, it would be beneficial not to question this system that has existed and benefited us with endless results for so many centuries.
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Can someone tell me more about Dorje Shugden Empowerment given by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso?
Thank you TK for starting this topic.
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This is not directed at Lightning per say, but he/she did bring up a good point about keeping good samaya.
My opinion is that keeping good samaya is crucial and essential for all practices. I dare say, it is the key to all practices. Hence, the stress on Guru Devotion.
Without good samayas, there will be nothing.
Thanks and you are kind and modest. I am "He". ;)
I highlighted that maintaining good samaya for some good reasons and some Lamas have stricter requirements especially on DS empowerment participants' characters before allowing for participation.
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Can someone tell me more about Dorje Shugden Empowerment given by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso?
Thank you TK for starting this topic.
From what I know, the Dorje Shugden empowerment is also known as sogtae - the life entrustment ceremony. During this time, the person receiving the empowerment vows to take Dorje Shugden as their personal protector until they attain Bodhicitta. The initiate also receives a crystal that has special symbolism, to keep close to them wherever they go. If you are fortunate enough to have received such a practice from a qualified teacher, treasure it more than your life. Dorje Shugden will remain with you, protecting and watching over you throughout your lives. Each of us owe him much more than we could ever know.
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Thank you for sharing that beautiful information.
If I were so fortunate to receive such an empowerment, I would indeed cherish it for all lifetimes.
What a magnificent precious gift to look forward to receiving.
As it is, Dorje Shugden has helped me so much in my practice. I do owe him so so much - as it is.
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Can someone tell me more about Dorje Shugden Empowerment given by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso?
Thank you TK for starting this topic.
From what I know, the Dorje Shugden empowerment is also known as sogtae - the life entrustment ceremony. During this time, the person receiving the empowerment vows to take Dorje Shugden as their personal protector until they attain Bodhicitta. The initiate also receives a crystal that has special symbolism, to keep close to them wherever they go. If you are fortunate enough to have received such a practice from a qualified teacher, treasure it more than your life. Dorje Shugden will remain with you, protecting and watching over you throughout your lives. Each of us owe him much more than we could ever know.
Thanks for the reply Duldzin. I look forward to the day where everyone on this forum can practice Dorje Shugden as their Yidam.
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My understanding is that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso does not give the Sogte. I have heard that he gives the Jenang, which is the blessing and permission to practice.
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My understanding is that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso does not give the Sogte. I have heard that he gives the Jenang, which is the blessing and permission to practice.
Sorry to ask if anyone here has taken Sogte for Palden Lhamo before and the hand shaking ceremony considered as Sogte?
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To add to this discussion, i'd like to refer to this post on "Traditional and non-traditional methods to accomplish Manjunatha Dorje Shugden or full retreat vs. short daily practice"
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=414.0
I re-post the main post by Mountains here but you can go to the link and read the subsequent discussion:
Traditional
1. By strict tradition, if you wish to do the long kangsol or long puja of Dorje shugden you should have the sogtae (empowerment)of this protector. If you don't have sogtae you are still allowed to perform it. It depends on your lama. But Sogtae would be a wonderful commitment to take. This kangsol is done monthly as a commitment after recieving sogtae. Of course one may do it more in one month.
It is different than the yidam's practices. Within the long kangsol of Dorje Shugden, there is no meditation of generation or completion stages. The drops, winds and channels are not involved. And there is no powa of any sort. So there is no 'danger'.
2. By strict tradition: If you wish to engage in a retreat of Dorje Shugden, this is the procedure for four sessions a day until completion. You must recite daily during the sessions:
a. Guru Yoga of Tsongkapa
b. Guru Puja (lama chopa)
c. Long Yamantaka sadhana is recommended/but higher tantra sadhana also ok.
d. Then the long kangsol of Dorje Shugden with emphasis on mantra recitation with visualizations.
e. When retreat has finished 200,000, 400,000, 1,0000,000 recitations of the main mantra then one is to engage in a Dorje Shugden fire puja. Dorje Shugden has his own specific fire pujas. You have peaceful shugden, increase, control and wrathful fire pujas also. But in this case you would do the fire puja of the principal form.
Then you are complete.
3. By strict tradition, to recieve the sogtae of Dorje shugden,Yamantaka initiation is highly recommended prior although Cakrasamvara or any other Annu tara yoga tantra is permissable.
Because during the pujas and daily prayers of Dorje shugden, you should have clear visualization of oneself as a yidam. As a yidam, you bless the items of offering for Dorje Shugden before and during the pujas. For that, one has to use the blessing system of Highest yoga tantra to make the offerings free from smell, color and negative potentiality,transforming into nectar, and increases to be unlimited. Then it becomes a 'proper' offering.
4. In order to confer the sogtae on others, one should have finished the above.
5. The best is to engage in a Tsongkapa Guru Yoga retreat finishing minimum of 100,000 migtzeyma mantras. No fire pujas required.
6. After migtzeyma retreat, a yamantaka retreat is required completing minimum of 400,000 of the 3rd mantra and 100,000 of the remaining three mantras each. Then a full Yamantaka fire puja is to be done afterwards. Until the fire puja, one is to recite the Yamantaka long sadhana daily on one's retreat seat. The retreat seat shouldn't be moved throughout the retreat until the fire puja is complete.
7. Then after the Yamantaka retreat, one engages in a long Dorje Shugden retreat as described above.
The above is by strict retreat according to the writings of H.H. Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang Jetsun Lobsang Yeshe Tenzin Gyatso Pelsangpo.
For Non-traditional daily prayers
1. Refuge, four immeasurables. Then one does the guru yoga of Tsongkapa
2. Afterwards one may engage in the short daily prayers of Dorje shugden as kindly provided by the Webmaster (thank you!) on the home page.
3. During the daily prayers to exhort Dorje Shugden, one may recite more of his principal mantra more and engage in the offerings of golden drink or serkym. Any praises to Dorje Shugden written by any of the erudite masters can be included. It really depends on your time. (Please note though, Dorje Shugden would be happier for you to recite migtzeyma more than his own mantra) But if you visualize the whole refuge tree dissolving into Dorje Shugden and recite his mantra with that awareness that he embodies the Buddhas of the Three Times, then it would be powerful. Attainments definitely can be achieved from one-pointed recitation of Dorje Shugden's supreme mantra.
4. Then dedication.
5. One is allowed to recite the mantra and liturgy without empowerment or oral transmission.
6. If one wishes to download the prayers and start today, of course one may do so. Why? Dorje Shugden is not a worldly protector. He is within the same mindstream as Tsongkapa, Yamantaka and of course Manjushri. Any form of prayers, offerings, worship directed toward Dorje Shugden is the same as doing the same with any enlightened being planting the seeds of enlightenment within one's mindstream. So there is no 'fear' to do Dorje Shugden's short practice without any formal permission.
7. The above can be done before or after your yidam's practice if you have one. There is no set time,place and procedure for this.
Good luck and May Dorje Shugden's time prevail soon.
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To add to this discussion, i'd like to refer to this post on "Traditional and non-traditional methods to accomplish Manjunatha Dorje Shugden or full retreat vs. short daily practice"
[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=414.0[/url]
I re-post the main post by Mountains here but you can go to the link and read the subsequent discussion:
Traditional
1. By strict tradition, if you wish to do the long kangsol or long puja of Dorje shugden you should have the sogtae (empowerment)of this protector. If you don't have sogtae you are still allowed to perform it. It depends on your lama. But Sogtae would be a wonderful commitment to take. This kangsol is done monthly as a commitment after recieving sogtae. Of course one may do it more in one month.
It is different than the yidam's practices. Within the long kangsol of Dorje Shugden, there is no meditation of generation or completion stages. The drops, winds and channels are not involved. And there is no powa of any sort. So there is no 'danger'.
2. By strict tradition: If you wish to engage in a retreat of Dorje Shugden, this is the procedure for four sessions a day until completion. You must recite daily during the sessions:
a. Guru Yoga of Tsongkapa
b. Guru Puja (lama chopa)
c. Long Yamantaka sadhana is recommended/but higher tantra sadhana also ok.
d. Then the long kangsol of Dorje Shugden with emphasis on mantra recitation with visualizations.
e. When retreat has finished 200,000, 400,000, 1,0000,000 recitations of the main mantra then one is to engage in a Dorje Shugden fire puja. Dorje Shugden has his own specific fire pujas. You have peaceful shugden, increase, control and wrathful fire pujas also. But in this case you would do the fire puja of the principal form.
Then you are complete.
3. By strict tradition, to recieve the sogtae of Dorje shugden,Yamantaka initiation is highly recommended prior although Cakrasamvara or any other Annu tara yoga tantra is permissable.
Because during the pujas and daily prayers of Dorje shugden, you should have clear visualization of oneself as a yidam. As a yidam, you bless the items of offering for Dorje Shugden before and during the pujas. For that, one has to use the blessing system of Highest yoga tantra to make the offerings free from smell, color and negative potentiality,transforming into nectar, and increases to be unlimited. Then it becomes a 'proper' offering.
4. In order to confer the sogtae on others, one should have finished the above.
5. The best is to engage in a Tsongkapa Guru Yoga retreat finishing minimum of 100,000 migtzeyma mantras. No fire pujas required.
6. After migtzeyma retreat, a yamantaka retreat is required completing minimum of 400,000 of the 3rd mantra and 100,000 of the remaining three mantras each. Then a full Yamantaka fire puja is to be done afterwards. Until the fire puja, one is to recite the Yamantaka long sadhana daily on one's retreat seat. The retreat seat shouldn't be moved throughout the retreat until the fire puja is complete.
7. Then after the Yamantaka retreat, one engages in a long Dorje Shugden retreat as described above.
The above is by strict retreat according to the writings of H.H. Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang Jetsun Lobsang Yeshe Tenzin Gyatso Pelsangpo.
For Non-traditional daily prayers
1. Refuge, four immeasurables. Then one does the guru yoga of Tsongkapa
2. Afterwards one may engage in the short daily prayers of Dorje shugden as kindly provided by the Webmaster (thank you!) on the home page.
3. During the daily prayers to exhort Dorje Shugden, one may recite more of his principal mantra more and engage in the offerings of golden drink or serkym. Any praises to Dorje Shugden written by any of the erudite masters can be included. It really depends on your time. (Please note though, Dorje Shugden would be happier for you to recite migtzeyma more than his own mantra) But if you visualize the whole refuge tree dissolving into Dorje Shugden and recite his mantra with that awareness that he embodies the Buddhas of the Three Times, then it would be powerful. Attainments definitely can be achieved from one-pointed recitation of Dorje Shugden's supreme mantra.
4. Then dedication.
5. One is allowed to recite the mantra and liturgy without empowerment or oral transmission.
6. If one wishes to download the prayers and start today, of course one may do so. Why? Dorje Shugden is not a worldly protector. He is within the same mindstream as Tsongkapa, Yamantaka and of course Manjushri. Any form of prayers, offerings, worship directed toward Dorje Shugden is the same as doing the same with any enlightened being planting the seeds of enlightenment within one's mindstream. So there is no 'fear' to do Dorje Shugden's short practice without any formal permission.
7. The above can be done before or after your yidam's practice if you have one. There is no set time,place and procedure for this.
Good luck and May Dorje Shugden's time prevail soon.
Just to add:
Many who have the Sogte recite the Kangwa and the Kangshag daily. These are both found in the Kangso.
Some monks also recite the Kangdring (short Kangso) daily. Here at Shar Gaden, the Kangdring is recited by a group of monks every evening in the Dorje Shugden chapel.
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wow great discussion going on here about how we can do Dorje Shugden's kangso every day.
I think most important to understand is that DS does not need us, but we need his help. We do prayers everyday because we need the merit to keep us going and to purify all that nasty stuff that we have accumulated from that one day. From this merit, we our obstacles are cleared and our minds open up. Then we are able to receive and practice the Dharma.
i like this very much also:
Dorje Shugden would be happier for you to recite migtzeyma more than his own mantra
...a very good reminder to all of us Dorje Shugden is Tsongkhapa himself. When we call upon Tsongkhapa, we also call DS and vice versa. At the end of the day, he opens our mind to practice, sincerity and wisdom - the lamrim. Every time we recite a praise or mantra to him, we make it more possible for ourselves to receive this blessed help from him.
So... do more serkyems!
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Just to add:
Many who have the Sogte recite the Kangwa and the Kangshag daily. These are both found in the Kangso.
Some monks also recite the Kangdring (short Kangso) daily. Here at Shar Gaden, the Kangdring is recited by a group of monks every evening in the Dorje Shugden chapel.
True, my lama too strongly recommends the kangshag daily in combination with the serkyem and mantra. Strong confessions followed by requests to clear our worldly obstacles in order for dharma practice to prevail.
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My understanding is that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso does not give the Sogte. I have heard that he gives the Jenang, which is the blessing and permission to practice.
The sogtae is only given two people at a time. It is quite possible that Geshe-la gives it in private but in public events like the summer festivals of the past, you're probably correct that it is the jenang that is given to the entire assembly. However, as far as I know, it is not necessary to have the jenang nor the sogtae in order to engage in Dorje Shugden's practice and to receive his help and blessings.
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However, as far as I know, it is not necessary to have the jenang nor the sogtae in order to engage in Dorje Shugden's practice and to receive his help and blessings.
Oh, for sure. The Kangwa and the Kangshag can be recited by anyone with faith. This is how it was explained to me as well.
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Please exuse my ignorance and laziness,as I havent really read these posts properly,but from looking at the title..this is my point of view. The Yidam ,Deity,Guru and Dharma protector are all one. I was practising Dorje Shugden before id recieved an empowerment and also was attempting to generate as a Deity before id had an empowerment...id read instructions on generating Bodhichitta(and there are different ways) and this particular instruction was called bringing the result into the path.With a wish to move from aspiring Bodhichitta to engaging Bodhichitta..and then meditate on emptiness and from that emptiness the Deity appears,not other than emptiness. also i believe "taking and giving" a pure tantric-like practice as it involves the belief of "oneself" as a Wish granting Jewel..in one version..all similar.
So when i did my Heart Jewel or Wishfulfiling Jewel practice..even tho id not recieved an empowerment..when i got to the part,"I have the clarity of the yidam"..i just went with it....this may or may not be correct,but it seemed to work for me..and the OM Ah HUm meditation was great preparation for "more advanced" practices as well. Im not familiar with a practice of actually generating as Dorje Shugden..but surely if he is a Wisdom Buddha then we would be anyway...is this making any sense?..either way i think that we can practice Dorje shugden,recite his mantra etc..make offerings to him regardless if weve had an empowerment or not..i did anyhow..and recieved his protection and blessings...i will know go and look at the posts properly now and apologize if this has no relevance to them!
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Please exuse my ignorance and laziness,as I havent really read these posts properly,but from looking at the title..this is my point of view. The Yidam ,Deity,Guru and Dharma protector are all one. I was practising Dorje Shugden before id recieved an empowerment and also was attempting to generate as a Deity before id had an empowerment...id read instructions on generating Bodhichitta(and there are different ways) and this particular instruction was called bringing the result into the path.With a wish to move from aspiring Bodhichitta to engaging Bodhichitta..and then meditate on emptiness and from that emptiness the Deity appears,not other than emptiness. also i believe "taking and giving" a pure tantric-like practice as it involves the belief of "oneself" as a Wish granting Jewel..in one version..all similar.
So when i did my Heart Jewel or Wishfulfiling Jewel practice..even tho id not recieved an empowerment..when i got to the part,"I have the clarity of the yidam"..i just went with it....this may or may not be correct,but it seemed to work for me..and the OM Ah HUm meditation was great preparation for "more advanced" practices as well. Im not familiar with a practice of actually generating as Dorje Shugden..but surely if he is a Wisdom Buddha then we would be anyway...is this making any sense?..either way i think that we can practice Dorje shugden,recite his mantra etc..make offerings to him regardless if weve had an empowerment or not..i did anyhow..and recieved his protection and blessings...i will know go and look at the posts properly now and apologize if this has no relevance to them!
Hi Andrew,
Thank you for sharing. It is always very interesting and inspiring to hear of other people practicing so sincerely. However, please do be careful about doing practices without proper empowerments/initiations as there are sometimes commitments you need to keep to (like vows, or a commitment to do a certain number of prayers / yogas etc a day). Or there may certain specific requirements that you may need to fulfil before doing the practices.
It can be dangerous if we are doing these practices without proper guidance because sometimes we are dealing very directly with our energy channels and if we do not do it properly, it can affect our spiritual practices now or in the future.
I would recommend, like what others have already been saying here, to focus first on doing the kangsol, mantras, praises of Dorje Shugden. This is very powerful also – it will help you to create a lot of grand merit to support your higher practices later and it will also clear a lot of obstacles for you.
I hope this is helpful. Please do not take any offence in what I have said because I do not mean to in any way.
Yours, beggar
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Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal. It would be the first text of it's kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and hence making it quick in attainments. I wish very much a text and practice for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a yidam would arise. I would IMMEDIATELY engage in the practice and await the festival of attainments to be gained in order to benefit others to happen.
tk
The thought of having Dorje Shugden as our Yidam with full generation and completion stages of highest yoga tantra is indeed very exciting. If we have strong faith in Dorje Shugden, having Dorje Shugden as our protector as well as our Yidam at the same time would be very powerful practice.
As TK has mentioned, if the practice text is given by Dorje Shugden himself or a highly accomplished Dorje Shugden Lama, it would be first of its kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and can grant quick attainment. I would definitely be the first one to queue up for the initiation of such practice if it come into being in the future. How wonderful it would be if this happens!!
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If any of the Oracles of Dorje Shugden recognizes a tulku, I will trust and believe all the way. If there was no use for the Tulku system, Dorje Shugden would not entertain any inquiries. Also if the Tulku system was damaging, then of course, Dorje Shugden would not recognize any Tulkus.
The Tulku system is so very important within Tibetan Buddhism in general and within the Gelug system. We will die, we will reincarnate and we will take rebirth. So if we practice the tantras correctly, one of the side benefits is that we can control our rebirth. So two and two makes four. If we can take charge of our rebirth, then why not Tulkus.
Within Tulkus, there are many level of attainments also. Their ranks or height of their thrones do not always indicate their attainments. How far a tulku has progressed on the path in their previous lives is how much control they will have over their rebirths.
I for one, am all for the Tulku system which is alive, active and thriving. Many great Tulkus are able to return, be recognized and continue their work. It is very important for the Dorje Shugden lineage tulkus to return. It proves to everyone clearly that practicing Dorje Shugden does not bring negative states of rebirth. How can the worship of a Buddha such as Dorje Shugden bring damage in any way.
In my opinion, coming from a non Tibetan culture, I find the Tulku system not just logical but also a evidence to many that reincarnation, controlling your mind, rebirth and hence Enlightenment possible. It is definitely helpful to preserve this system as it shows the whole theory of taking a controlled rebirth NOT a theory, and NOT something made up.
Yes it also makes one think and realize that practicing Dorje Shugden - is not "EVIL". IF it was "EVIL", then WHY are all the high Lamas accused of practicing a demon back as humans benefiting so many and not in the 3 lower realms? So either the Buddhas teaching is faulty or Dorje Shugden is obviously NOT EVIL.
Hence, I really like this Tulku system and I hope it will be well preserved into the future for our next generation to witness the power of the mind of these great masters who give us hope we too can one day control our own minds :)
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When we worship Dorje Shugden, we are worshipping Manjushri. Since we are worshipping Manjushri, we are connecting to all the matured wisdom of all Buddhas. Therefore the 7 limbs offered to Dorje Shugden is equal to offering the 7 limbs to all the Buddhas of the ten directions and three times. It is incredible merits just to offer one light or a single stick of incense to Dorje Shugden.
Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal. It would be the first text of it's kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and hence making it quick in attainments. I wish very much a text and practice for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a yidam would arise. I would IMMEDIATELY engage in the practice and await the festival of attainments to be gained in order to benefit others to happen.
tk
I wish and pray that the above will become a reality one day soon! Imagine, a Protector of our times, Dorje Shugden can be practiced as a Yidam!
It would be amazing to perpetuate Yidam and Protector together literally Certainly the blessings and attainments would be so much more swifter as it is said that (Tsongkhapa/Manjushri) Dorje Shugden manifested strictly to suit the people of this day an age that have such huge negative karma.
Of course Buddhas can manifest in any way they deem fit to help the minds of the people at that time. They are omniscience. Even Vajrayogini appeared in so many different pose to suit different time/lineages and our lineage happens to be the Naro Kacho one based on Naropa's vision. Hey even the Hats can change from red to yellow, so why can't Buddhas change to suit the people's needs? So WHY NOT DS as Yidam & Protector? ...Is it Necessary? Well we'll let the Buddhas decide that one shall we heeee.
It's very possible I think and in a way I do hope Dorje Shugden does say Yes through an Oracle and for one of the great masters, as mentioned above by TK, to compose the 1st of it's kind highest yoga tantra text. I sure will be in line too :)
And Because Dorje Shugden is swift in granting blessings and attainments esp when you have clean "samaya" with your Guru, many people will see results and their faith in Dharma will become stronger.
Thanks TK, This Great Thought may well be a spark that may create the cause for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a Yidam and Protector in the near future by countless beings!
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This isn't going to happen because Dorje Shugden is the protector aspect of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang. He's a PROTECTOR not a yidam and that's his particular aspect and function. If you check Kangso, Dorje Shugden and his retinue are propitiated after the Gurus, Yidams and Three Jewels.
For example, according to aspect and function, Vajrayogini is not a Guru or a Protector. Each Deity has a particular aspect and function.
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This isn't going to happen because Dorje Shugden is the protector aspect of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang. He's a PROTECTOR not a yidam and that's his particular aspect and function. If you check Kangso, Dorje Shugden and his retinue are propitiated after the Gurus, Yidams and Three Jewels.
For example, according to aspect and function, Vajrayogini is not a Guru or a Protector. Each Deity has a particular aspect and function.
I have been trying to explain this eariler...
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Dear Lineage Holder and Lightning,
Dorje Shugden may have manifested as a Protector now, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he cannot be a Yidam as well. If we say he cannot be a Yidam, are we not saying that the Buddha has limitations? After all, Dorje Shugden is Manjushri.
I refer to what thai monk says below in reply to crazy cloud which supports this.
This would be entirely unnecessary.
Doje Shugden alredy exists as a Yidam, he's called Je Tsongkhapa. There are many self generation sadhanas already composed.
This would be unnecessary or not is not up to you or me. It is a request. Let Dulzin himself decide if it is unnecessary or necessary when the request is made. Maybe now a form of Dorje Shugden as a yidam would be necessary. Je Tsongkpa as a yidam does not have generation and completion stages and it is one of the lower tantras. So theoretically not able to bring us to enlightenment in one short lifetime. The lower tantras are practiced to remove immediate obstacles to enlightenment such as Medicine Buddha for disease, White Manjushri for quick wisdom, Vajrapani for removing obstacles. But then the higher tantras must be engaged for actual enlightenment.
Yamantaka, red manjushri, black Manjushri, White Manjushri, 13-deity Yamantaka, Yellow Manjushri exists. There are so many forms of Manjushri as a Yidam. They appear as an when needed. So nothing wrong if Manjushri Dorje Shugden appears as a full fledged annuttara tantra Yidam. If I have great faith in Dorje Shugden and he appears as a Yidam, I would practice him above other yidams immediately.
Other great tantric texts have been written by qualified masters, so this would require such a master. As these sadhanas are not scholastic pieces of work, they need someone of the highest calibre to write them. Who can write, I haven't any idea. But it would be great if Dulzin himself composes it through his oracles. Just like his divination text was composed through the oracle. Many people have recieved Avalokitesvara initiation while Dorje Shugden was in trance through Choyang Dulzin Kuten.
Yes, Yamantaka exists both as a yidam and protector. He can be worshipped/propitiated as both or either. So why not Shugden. Four Face Mahakala and Kalarupa are emanations of Manjushri also. There is no limit to Manjushri's emanations. As time progresses and there is a need, I am sure the compassionate Manjushri will appear in so many new forms unheard of . It is not for us to say yay or nay. Just rejoice.
It is up to others if they wish to practice Shugden as a yidam or not. But no one has the right to say right or wrong.
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This isn't going to happen because Dorje Shugden is the protector aspect of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang. He's a PROTECTOR not a yidam and that's his particular aspect and function. If you check Kangso, Dorje Shugden and his retinue are propitiated after the Gurus, Yidams and Three Jewels.
For example, according to aspect and function, Vajrayogini is not a Guru or a Protector. Each Deity has a particular aspect and function.
if you're going to say that, then Yamantaka could not exist as both a protector and a yidam.
If you're going to say this, then it means that the Buddhas' capabilities are limited.
From the side of Dorje Shugden (or indeed Vajrayogini or any other Buddha), they can be any of Guru, Yidam, Protector, Dakini to us. It is as TK has already explained that it is the way in which the path is presented that "makes" them either a protector or a Yidam TO US. It is how WE do the practice and propitiate them that determines the level or "type" of benefit that we receive from them. As Buddhas, from their side, they have the total ability to grant us any kind of enlightened assistance and blessings.
Their function and roles are certainly not as limited as you have presented it; if it were, then how can they be fully enlightened beings?
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Dear Lineage Holder and Lightning,
Dorje Shugden may have manifested as a Protector now, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he cannot be a Yidam as well. If we say he cannot be a Yidam, are we not saying that the Buddha has limitations? After all, Dorje Shugden is Manjushri.
I refer to what thai monk says below in reply to crazy cloud which supports this.
I apologised that I agreed too fast in my eariler reply and I do agree that DS can manifest as a Yidam. What I feel that there is too much emphasis on the protector itself over here and I believe that Dorje Shugden would be more happy if we put in more efforts in our Guru Yoga, Yidam and LamRim itself first. If we make more efforts in practicing Dharma, the protectors have samaya to protect us even if we do not practice protector. Like the rest, I do wish to have Dorje Shugden Empowerment too and it is good to rely on such a qualified protector, but I felt that more emphasis should be on the Dharma.
Lineage holder is right in a way that every individual Yidam has its undeniable primary functions such as Yamantaka is exists a Highest Yoga Tantra Yidam, Mahakala exist as a protector, Vajrapani as Kriya Tantra Yidam. No doubt that they are Buddhas but they have different roles and functions ultimately. We cannot practise and treat Vajrapani as a highest yoga tantra yidam. Also there is a vast difference if two person would to practise HYT Yamanataka and Vajrapani and we must be clear about this.
Base on my understanding, Dorje Shugden is not a highest yoga tantra yidam due to the oral transmission difference and there is no channel, subtle winds and drop practise involved also, but He is a protector to the highest yoga tantra yidam.
At times, I may appear to be a wet blanket, but ultimately I meant well.
Best Regards,
Lightning
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Having anything to do with Dorje Shugden in any way, shape or form is the pure dharma.
His body shows the complete path of Lam Rim.
His mind is all omniscient.
He has achieved full oneness with Guyasamaja.
Remembering,seeing, contemplating on Dorje Shugden would earn one great waves of merit beyond calculation.
His is Manjushri in peaceful, wrathful, controlling, mystical and protective forms. He is Manjushri as a Yidam, Bodhisattva, a Buddha, a Daka and also dharma protector.
Taking full refuge in Dorje Shugden is the same as taking refuge in the complete ultimate emptiness and great bliss inherent in all Buddhas.
Therefore, anything associated with Dorje Shugden is pure Dharma. No less and no more.
tk
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Although Dorje Shugden embodies the good qualities of all enlightened beings, so does Buddha Shakyamuni, Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara and all other Buddhas. I agree with Lightning - there is too much emphasis on Dorje Shugden practice at the expense of actual lamrim, lojong and Mahamudra meditation which are the actual precious jewels that Dorje Shugden has sworn to protect. As I said on another thread, too much enthusiasm for Dorje Shugden practice gets us the title 'Shugdenites' from those who oppose the practice because all they can see is that we are talking endlessly about Dorje Shugden and little else. It seems that DS is the main event, which is not the case, is it? I'd rather be known as a Kadampa, someone for whom lamrim is their main practice.
It must seem to them as if our main practice is the worship of Dorje Shugden and there is no doubt that we've contributed to that view through overemphasizing the importance of the practice. The Dalai Lama has tried to make the argument that we regard DS as more important than Buddha Shakyamuni. Well meaning but ultimately naive postings on this forum and the distribution of DS brochures doubtlessly support this view so we're not doing ourselves any favours in my view.
That's my twopenceworth with which none of you will agree, as usual. I think I'm on a different planet to you guys :D
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Adding another point is that Dorje Shugden practise does not have self intiaition, whereas highest yoga tantra yidams like Yamantaka have.
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Here is a copy of the Kangwa extracted from the Kangso. I made small marks in yellow where it begins and ends.
(http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww247/Tenzin13/001a.jpg)
Here is the Shagpa:
(http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww247/Tenzin13/002a.jpg)
If you would like the full-size image, email me at [email protected]
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Although Dorje Shugden embodies the good qualities of all enlightened beings, so does Buddha Shakyamuni, Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara and all other Buddhas. I agree with Lightning - there is too much emphasis on Dorje Shugden practice at the expense of actual lamrim, lojong and Mahamudra meditation which are the actual precious jewels that Dorje Shugden has sworn to protect. As I said on another thread, too much enthusiasm for Dorje Shugden practice gets us the title 'Shugdenites' from those who oppose the practice because all they can see is that we are talking endlessly about Dorje Shugden and little else. It seems that DS is the main event, which is not the case, is it? I'd rather be known as a Kadampa, someone for whom lamrim is their main practice.
It must seem to them as if our main practice is the worship of Dorje Shugden and there is no doubt that we've contributed to that view through overemphasizing the importance of the practice. The Dalai Lama has tried to make the argument that we regard DS as more important than Buddha Shakyamuni. Well meaning but ultimately naive postings on this forum and the distribution of DS brochures doubtlessly support this view so we're not doing ourselves any favours in my view.
That's my twopenceworth with which none of you will agree, as usual. I think I'm on a different planet to you guys :D
Dear Lineageholder,
Re what you said about this site just focusing on Dorje Shugden, i do expect it to be so because the entire site IS about Dorje Shugden. It's not called General Dharma.com or Buddhism.com but Dorjeshugden.com.
I must say that i did not think that DS was the main event as you say - i had thought of DS as a Protector but now that I'm thinking of the possibility of DS being a Yidam, my perspective has changed. The possibilities are much wider now.
Re seeing DS as more important than Shakyamuni - i think that practitioners see their yidam as more important than Shakyamuni, so it's not about seeing who is more important than Shakyamuni per se. Also since DS is enlightened and so is Shakyamuni, I don't think Shakyamuni will mind that we focus on DS.
Reading the post below also adds confidence to what I am feeling.
Having anything to do with Dorje Shugden in any way, shape or form is the pure dharma.
His body shows the complete path of Lam Rim.
His mind is all omniscient.
He has achieved full oneness with Guyasamaja.
Remembering,seeing, contemplating on Dorje Shugden would earn one great waves of merit beyond calculation.
His is Manjushri in peaceful, wrathful, controlling, mystical and protective forms. He is Manjushri as a Yidam, Bodhisattva, a Buddha, a Daka and also dharma protector.
Taking full refuge in Dorje Shugden is the same as taking refuge in the complete ultimate emptiness and great bliss inherent in all Buddhas.
Therefore, anything associated with Dorje Shugden is pure Dharma. No less and no more.
tk
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Dear Lineageholder,
Re what you said about this site just focusing on Dorje Shugden, i do expect it to be so because the entire site IS about Dorje Shugden. It's not called General Dharma.com or Buddhism.com but Dorjeshugden.com.
I must say that i did not think that DS was the main event as you say - i had thought of DS as a Protector but now that I'm thinking of the possibility of DS being a Yidam, my perspective has changed. The possibilities are much wider now.
Re seeing DS as more important than Shakyamuni - i think that practitioners see their yidam as more important than Shakyamuni, so it's not about seeing who is more important than Shakyamuni per se. Also since DS is enlightened and so is Shakyamuni, I don't think Shakyamuni will mind that we focus on DS.
Reading the post below also adds confidence to what I am feeling.
Dear Wisdom being,
It is dependent on the empowerment yidam you have received that matters. If you received a Manjushri empowerment only, you have to place more emphasis in Manjushri than the rest of the Buddhist Deities, because practising your own Yidam causes you to reach enlightenment faster.
Manjushri had long ago reached enlightenment, but He manifest as a tenth ground Bodhisattva "sub-actor" to co-ordinate and support the "main actor" Shakyamuni Buddha in our times. Both of them are equally enlightened but their roles are different here.
If you received a Heruka empowerment and Mahakala empowerment, more emphasis should be focus on Heruka than Mahakala. In terms of priority, Highest Yoga Yidam should come first, then comes the Yoga Tantra, followed by Perfomance Tantra, then lastly Action Tantra etc.It is not the protector placed above Highest Yoga Tantra Yidams. Without our Gurus, we do not have our empowerment yidams, without yidams, we would not have protectors.
Although Guru, Yidam and Protector are one entity, we must be able to distinguish Guru as Guru, Yidam as Yidam and Protector as Protector. Everything has their own place & order and we should not mess up and forget about our Dharma practice priorties, if not the outcome will be undesirable. This is a gentle reminder that we should not overlook or overkill main homework when practising Protectors.
By tradition, one must have Yamantaka empowerment or other Highest Yoga Tantra empowerment first, before he/she can take up Dorje Shugden as Yidam.
Yes this is a Dorje Shugden website, but I feel that this is a website where Dorje Shugden practioners and those others that are opposed by the "mainstream" to gather and united together as one strong community to clear the misconceptions about the rest of us. It is here where our voices can be heard and to display the good and enlightened qualities passed down by Je Tsong Kha Pa and Atisha's tradition.
Having anything to do with Dorje Shugden in any way, shape or form is the pure dharma.
His body shows the complete path of Lam Rim.
His mind is all omniscient.
He has achieved full oneness with Guyasamaja.
Remembering,seeing, contemplating on Dorje Shugden would earn one great waves of merit beyond calculation.
His is Manjushri in peaceful, wrathful, controlling, mystical and protective forms. He is Manjushri as a Yidam, Bodhisattva, a Buddha, a Daka and also dharma protector.
Taking full refuge in Dorje Shugden is the same as taking refuge in the complete ultimate emptiness and great bliss inherent in all Buddhas.
Therefore, anything associated with Dorje Shugden is pure Dharma. No less and no more.
tk
I agree but in fact this time Dorje Shugden manifest as protector not as a Highest Yoga Tantra Yidam.
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Here is a copy of the Kangwa extracted from the Kangso. I made small marks in yellow where it begins and ends.
([url]http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww247/Tenzin13/001a.jpg[/url])
Here is the Shagpa:
([url]http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww247/Tenzin13/002a.jpg[/url])
If you would like the full-size image, email me at [email protected]
Thank you so much :D
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Dear Wisdom Being,
The Yidam is more important than Buddha Shakyamuni? I've never heard that from anyone! They are both the same nature, surely? Only our Guru could be more important than Buddha Shakyamuni, but again, they are one and the same so this issue does not arise. Since Buddha Shakyamuni is the principal object of refuge for all Buddhists (but the Yidam is not) how could the Yidam be more important? Maybe I'm wrong.
Dear Lightning,
Although Guru, Yidam and Protector are one entity, we must be able to distinguish Guru as Guru, Yidam as Yidam and Protector as Protector. Everything has their own place & order and we should not mess up and forget about our Dharma practice priorties, if not the outcome will be undesirable. This is a gentle reminder that we should not overlook or overkill main homework when practising Protectors.
I couldn't agree more, well said.
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Dear Wisdom Being,
The Yidam is more important than Buddha Shakyamuni? I've never heard that from anyone! They are both the same nature, surely? Only our Guru could be more important than Buddha Shakyamuni, but again, they are one and the same so this issue does not arise. Since Buddha Shakyamuni is the principal object of refuge for all Buddhists (but the Yidam is not) how could the Yidam be more important? Maybe I'm wrong.
Dear LineageHolder,
My wrong choice of words - sorry - i meant it in the way that i thought that the focus of each individual practitioner would be on their personal Yidam rather than Shakyamuni. They are of the same nature, which is what i said too - they are all enlightened - so whoever we focus on is not as important.
Perhaps i misunderstood the role of the Yidam, though i do agree that the Guru should be above all, hence Guru first, then Yidam and Protector.
Re what Lightning said that each has their role, i do agree. However, i think that it is possible for the enlightened being to change their roles. I guess it would depend on what our individual Gurus advise and follow accordingly?
For example, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso doesn't follow the tulku system so his students don't either, which is fine. If another guru follows the tulku system, then his students should follow him. It's not that one is wrong or right, but whatever works for that Guru and his students.
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Although Dorje Shugden embodies the good qualities of all enlightened beings, so does Buddha Shakyamuni, Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara and all other Buddhas. I agree with Lightning - there is too much emphasis on Dorje Shugden practice at the expense of actual lamrim, lojong and Mahamudra meditation which are the actual precious jewels that Dorje Shugden has sworn to protect. As I said on another thread, too much enthusiasm for Dorje Shugden practice gets us the title 'Shugdenites' from those who oppose the practice because all they can see is that we are talking endlessly about Dorje Shugden and little else. It seems that DS is the main event, which is not the case, is it? I'd rather be known as a Kadampa, someone for whom lamrim is their main practice.
It must seem to them as if our main practice is the worship of Dorje Shugden and there is no doubt that we've contributed to that view through overemphasizing the importance of the practice. The Dalai Lama has tried to make the argument that we regard DS as more important than Buddha Shakyamuni. Well meaning but ultimately naive postings on this forum and the distribution of DS brochures doubtlessly support this view so we're not doing ourselves any favours in my view.
That's my twopenceworth with which none of you will agree, as usual. I think I'm on a different planet to you guys :D
Yes, it goes without saying that Lamrim, lojong, Mahamudra etc is what we should all be focusing on and working towards to achieve. This is definite.
I agree with Kate that we focus on Dorje Shugden here because, after all, it is a Dorje Shugden website and forum so we talk about the qualities of the practice and ask questions regarding his here. This is an appropriate place to do so.
Also, I think the average person out there in the world is NOT looking for lamrim, lojong and mahamudra. They don't even know what those words mean! The average person out there in the world is looking for a relationship, some money, a new house, a better job, some self-confidence, some method to get over their depression etc etc This can be seen across the board in almost every spiritual or new age practice - from tarot cards to divinations to therapies of all sorts.
Unfortunately, this is the situation today and this is how many, many, many people think. Just think for yourself: did you come into Dharma because you want to realise emptiness? Probably not. It was probably because you were looking for some answers to something on a much lower (although no less noble or sincere) level.
Ultimately, yes, I repeat again, we ARE all trying to get to a realisation of lojong, lamrim, etc and we wish very much for other people to get that. But, how do you teach the child the benefits of going to university when he hasn't even gone to 1st Grade yet? So you make 1st Grade classes fun - you have art classes and nap time and toys and hot chocolate. You dangle a carrot in front of people according to what they like, need or are comfortable with first, then you lead them on to the tougher stuff.
It is also wrong to just do Dorje Shugden's practice as a wishing tree - just pray, make some cheap offering and ask to win the lottery. OF COURSE, it is must bigger than that. We must also be careful not to fall into a trap of relying on him just like we rely on things like tarot cards or fortune tellers or quick fixes like that. Our motivation is to bring ourselves into the Lamrim and bring others to the Lamrim too. If the motivation is clear, then the method will fall into place- whether it is via a brochure or via a long and detailed dharma talk.
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Yes, it goes without saying that Lamrim, lojong, Mahamudra etc is what we should all be focusing on and working towards to achieve. This is definite.
I agree with Kate that we focus on Dorje Shugden here because, after all, it is a Dorje Shugden website and forum so we talk about the qualities of the practice and ask questions regarding his here. This is an appropriate place to do so.
Also, I think the average person out there in the world is NOT looking for lamrim, lojong and mahamudra. They don't even know what those words mean! The average person out there in the world is looking for a relationship, some money, a new house, a better job, some self-confidence, some method to get over their depression etc etc This can be seen across the board in almost every spiritual or new age practice - from tarot cards to divinations to therapies of all sorts.
Unfortunately, this is the situation today and this is how many, many, many people think. Just think for yourself: did you come into Dharma because you want to realise emptiness? Probably not. It was probably because you were looking for some answers to something on a much lower (although no less noble or sincere) level.
Ultimately, yes, I repeat again, we ARE all trying to get to a realisation of lojong, lamrim, etc and we wish very much for other people to get that. But, how do you teach the child the benefits of going to university when he hasn't even gone to 1st Grade yet? So you make 1st Grade classes fun - you have art classes and nap time and toys and hot chocolate. You dangle a carrot in front of people according to what they like, need or are comfortable with first, then you lead them on to the tougher stuff.
It is also wrong to just do Dorje Shugden's practice as a wishing tree - just pray, make some cheap offering and ask to win the lottery. OF COURSE, it is must bigger than that. We must also be careful not to fall into a trap of relying on him just like we rely on things like tarot cards or fortune tellers or quick fixes like that. Our motivation is to bring ourselves into the Lamrim and bring others to the Lamrim too. If the motivation is clear, then the method will fall into place- whether it is via a brochure or via a long and detailed dharma talk.
Just to add to what beggar said, in the starter kit of this website, http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=4213, it states quite clearly who Dorje Shugden is:
Who is Dorje Shugden?
Dorje Shugden is an enlightened Being, an emanation of the Buddha of Wisdom, Manjushri, who arose as a Dharma Protector 350 years ago. He emanated as a Dharma Protector in order to best safeguard the precious teachings of the Second Buddha known as Lama Tsongkhapa, to benefit all sentient beings.
During these degenerate times and due to our karma, Dorje Shugden is the most helpful Dharma Protector for us, because he is swift, powerful and benevolent. He removes our obstacles, protects us and our loved ones, and provides conducive conditions for a successful life and spiritual practice. Above all, he grants us our virtuous and spiritual wishes quickly.
It doesn't say that Dorje Shugden is a cheap wish grantor but that "Above all, he grants us our virtuous and spiritual wishes quickly."
People who may have picked up one of the brochures will come onto the website and read this. I think that it's quite straightforward who DS is and what is his purpose, which IS spiritual.
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Personally, I think that most average person, myself included, would not be seeking Enlightenment when we first enter into Dharma. To be exact, I just wanted to find a better way to deal with my list of personal issues. However, as time passed by, I find myself more focused and my desire to learn the Dharma began to shift as my mind shifted.
I think, for whatever reason a person may start practising the Dharma, with Protector Practice, all their obstacles will be removed in order for each person to learn the REAL DHARMA.
It may begin as a personal wish-fulfilling practice but it will change into a wish fulfilling practice to benefit others as well as self.
As Dorje Shugden's main purpose is ultimately to bring people to do the Dharma, HE will work to remove all obstacles to each person and bring about what he or she desires in order for real faith to arise in him or her. Once people's faith arises in Dorje Shugden, HE will undoubtedly move them into the TRUE DHARMA practice. And that will be Lam Rim.
To me, it matters not how each start, it is what they end up practising or realising that makes all the difference in their world.
As Dorje Shugden is swift, so will each person's path to Enlightenment - whether they know it or not, whether they want it or not in the beginning.
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Personally, I think that most average person, myself included, would not be seeking Enlightenment when we first enter into Dharma. To be exact, I just wanted to find a better way to deal with my list of personal issues. However, as time passed by, I find myself more focused and my desire to learn the Dharma began to shift as my mind shifted.
EXACTLY - people are not seeking enlightenment from the very beginning. They just want to reduce their anger and get some peace in their life. Let's be realistic and put ourself in the position of an ordinary person who has problems and is looking for answers that work. What they need is lamrim teachings. It would be very rare for people to develop faith in holy beings from the very beginning - heck, most people these days have aversion to religion!. You need to give them something they can relate to and practice rather than encouraging them to rely on an 'invisible being in the sky' as it were. This might work in asian cultures, but it certainly won't work in the West.
This is why it's best to encourage people to seek teachings on meditation practice rather than encouraging them to rely on Buddhas who they don't have any faith in anyway. It's about skillful means which is why promoting your Dharma Centre activities is a much better idea than the Dorje Shugden brochure.
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Dorje Shugden can manifest in any form he wants. No ONE IN THIS WORLD MAY DICTATE OTHERWISE.
As to what to promote. There are many ppl in the west and east. So just don't regionalize it. Westerners are not superior or their style better just because they 'like' meditation. Westerners have long exploited the earth and other races due to greed for many hundreds of years ago. Suddenly discovering Buddhism isn't going to change that.
You don't like the brochures, then you don't have to repeat yourself over and over.We heard you the forst 10 times. Thanks. You don't have to do it or distribute.
You go and meditate and get enlightened and then we can talk. Unitl then I will pray to shugden for what I need and want on a short and long term basis. And you or any other Westerner or Easterner do not need to curtail my freedom of how I wish to interatct with Dorje Shugden. :)
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Dear Lineage Holder,
I believe skillful means actually means that we promote practices that is best suited for that individual at that particular time and according to his or her capacity/capabilities. It may not even be meditational practice at all! Every individual is unique and different.
Personally, I 'fell in love' with the Buddha first before doing any practices and did not initially find meditational practice relevant or helpful to me at the early stages of my spiritual journey. Having said that, I have friends who found meditation to be helpful to them at the start of their spiritual path. To each his or her own. It is not for us to say what is best or better, it is for the individual to decide. It is not for anyone to impose on others.
And thank goodness that the Buddha has created the 84, 000 different ways. We can all choose whichever way we are most happy and comfortable to start our practice. Most importantly, whatever we choose, we can continue to practice with consistency and commitment.
In my experience, nothing is impossible with the Enlightened Minds and Bodies. They are infinite and the possibilities are infinite.
What's truly limiting is our own self-absorbed mind which insists on believing that things should only exist or practised in a certain way. Here, I am not referring to any individual in particualr, of course. It is all inclusive of the masses. Myself, especially.
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I believe skillful means actually means that we promote practices that is best suited for that individual at that particular time and according to his or her capacity/capabilities. It may not even be meditational practice at all! Every individual is unique and different.
Personally, I 'fell in love' with the Buddha first before doing any practices and did not initially find meditational practice relevant or helpful to me at the early stages of my spiritual journey. Having said that, I have friends who found meditation to be helpful to them at the start of their spiritual path. To each his or her own. It is not for us to say what is best or better, it is for the individual to decide. It is not for anyone to impose on others.
Helena, thanks for the sharing. I relate very much to what you said. When I joined, I actually didn't like anything of the traditional Dharma "stuff" (as i called it then). I didn't like altars, offerings, pujas; Dharma classes was a total chore for me. I liked the dharma centre because, quite simply, i liked the people there and I loved my Lama. That was enough. It was superficial, sure, but that's what got me in, in the first place and five years on, I am still here. Now i love my buddha images, my altar, making offerings, going to pujas and joining Dharma talks.
Different strokes for different folks. If it had been just another centre which threw me into the deep end with Lamrim teachings and lojong and words I couldn't even pronounce, I would have been out of there faster than you could say Tsongkhapa.
I imagine there are a lot more people out there like me who aren't looking for some deep realisation. In all probability, they're probably just looking for some answers to questions that we may now judge as being trivial, superficial, not "real dharma." So be really skilful, like Helena says, and give em what they need. Our lamas come down to our level all the time and give us advice and guidance on some of the most trivial things. They aren't just teaching us about Emptiness all the time! They teach us in all aspects of our lives, even the really mundane stuff. So why is it okay for us to receive that kind of attention, love and methods from our teachers but not okay if other people need other things and other methods?
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Dear Lineage Holder,
This website does introduce Dharma to people in the 'Dharma Reads' section (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?cat=12), where there's my favourite Eight Verses of Training the Mind (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1292), so it's not 'just' about Dorje Shugden.
I find this discussion quite interesting in that we can be so selective - for example, I like the idea of the brochures, but i do have a preference over which brochure design I like better. I realise that it is just a reflection of my own mind which is so immersed in duality. If i can develop equanimity to all methods, then all methods would be equally appealing. All brochures would be equally nice. All methods of promotion would be the same and all images of Dorje Shugden would be equally lovely to me. But they are not - so I have to contemplate what I can do about it.
I guess I would practice being more mindful and aware so i can catch myself when I am being selective. This is the only way to practice being less selective and apply what dharma I learn with immediate effect. Life is really a great journey with the guidance of the compassionate Buddhas.
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Dear WB,
You said it - it IS ALL A REFLECTION of our minds and our minds' preferences.
What would appeal to you may not appeal to me and vice versa.
Why does the Lama has come down to our level to teach us? Because we will never rise to the Lama's level to be able to remotely comprehend the vastness of his teachings and most of all, the depth. Hence, the Lama teaches us according to the aspects of our every day lives so that we can best relate. And from where we can relate, we will beging to understand more and incorporate more Dharma into our lives.
I would think that teachings on Emptiness, Meditation, Lam Rim, Lojong or even the practice of tonglen would not be easy to grasp in the very beginning for people like me who are so addicted to the secular life and all things samsara.
Personally, I am very grateful that there are so many different ways to Enlightenment and to learn the Dharma because it means every single person has a fair chance. And that chance is what each make of it - according to their level and their ability.
In this way, no one would be left behind in samsara.
That is the most powerful and liberating thought of all - we all have the equal chance to break free.
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Why does the Lama has come down to our level to teach us? Because we will never rise to the Lama's level to be able to remotely comprehend the vastness of his teachings and most of all, the depth. Hence, the Lama teaches us according to the aspects of our every day lives so that we can best relate. And from where we can relate, we will beging to understand more and incorporate more Dharma into our lives.
Sometimes I always wonder what it's like for these Bodhisattva Lamas. For them to leave their wonderful monasteries and come to Dharmically alien places like England and Europe, not receiving the support from their Sangha family, not having the respect accorded to them etc. and having to deal with many deluded students. I know they are Bodhisattvas and hence they suffer gladly for others, but it still doesn't mean that we should treat them badly.
Many of us take the Lamas for granted and think that they are just like us (even my feeling sorry for how they are treated by some students may be wrong view). They give us the most precious gift of the Dharma and often what some of the students do is just criticise them or they don't listen to their Lama's instructions. Anyway, I think it's something we should contemplate and be grateful to all Lamas for.
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Sometimes I always wonder what it's like for these Bodhisattva Lamas. For them to leave their wonderful monasteries and come to Dharmically alien places like England and Europe, not receiving the support from their Sangha family, not having the respect accorded to them etc. and having to deal with many deluded students. I know they are Bodhisattvas and hence they suffer gladly for others, but it still doesn't mean that we should treat them badly.
This probably sounds like a daft question, but do bodhisattvas suffer? After all, isn't suffering a perception of the mind? And aren't Bodhisattvas in full control of their minds? To say they suffer would imply they are subject to the same delusions as us, wouldn't it?
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EXACTLY - people are not seeking enlightenment from the very beginning. They just want to reduce their anger and get some peace in their life. Let's be realistic and put ourself in the position of an ordinary person who has problems and is looking for answers that work. What they need is lamrim teachings. It would be very rare for people to develop faith in holy beings from the very beginning - heck, most people these days have aversion to religion!. You need to give them something they can relate to and practice rather than encouraging them to rely on an 'invisible being in the sky' as it were. This might work in asian cultures, but it certainly won't work in the West.
This is why it's best to encourage people to seek teachings on meditation practice rather than encouraging them to rely on Buddhas who they don't have any faith in anyway. It's about skillful means which is why promoting your Dharma Centre activities is a much better idea than the Dorje Shugden brochure.
I have been reflecting on what Lineageholder mentioned above. I think we are operating in a very limiting view and generalised that “people” are not seeking enlightenment from the very beginning and are ordinary. Perhaps this is because we have only met these type of people around us. Too bad for us! May be we need to collect more merits and “move on” and stop being in the herd?
I am very fond of Kalu Rinpoche’s examples and teachings from the book Luminous Mind when Rinpoche talks about the stages of progression in Vajrayana. It is a bit long, but I think it’s good to share since we are at the subject of enlightenment!
In letting the clear light of mind emerge, there are 2 paths: SLOW and INSTANT.
a) SLOW / GRADUAL PATH
The veils (haze/ fog/cloud) are initially very thick that nothing shows through. But when the fog lifts/clouds disappear, space is gradually revealed and the sun shines in all its splendour. So the 2 accumulations of merit and wisdom are like the wind that blows away the haze/clouds of the mind, making them disappear and revealing the bright space of clear light.
b) IMMEDIATE/ INSTANT PATH
Flipping an electric switch is enough to illuminate a room that has been completely dark for centuries. This is a disciple who has faith, diligence, and spiritual intelligence who meets a master who opens him to the understanding of mahamudra or dzogchen, that can cause all the veils of ignorance to disappear in an instant.
Of course, for practitioners of middling or inferior abilities, definitely it is a long process through these steps below:
1. discipline of Hinayana
2. common preliminaries to develop awareness of the Lamrim teachings: value of the precious human rebirth, impermanence and death, karma, etc
3. collection of 6 perfections & calm-abiding practice
4. generate altruistic attitude of compassion thru lojong/ tonglen
5. ngondro (Vajrayana foundations/ various 100,000 preliminary practices)
Only after all these they are to practice the Deity Yoga (yidam practices) until signs of success appear. Finally, the subsequent practices such as the Six Yogas of Naropa to realise the bliss-void.
BUT there are practitioners with sublime faculties whom according to Kalu Rinpoche, “merely encountering the Dharma awakens in their hearts renunciation of samsara, aspiration for enlightenment, compassion for all beings, and trust in the lama and the Three Jewels. The meaning of emptiness, the practice of mahamudra or of dzogchen, fills them with great joy and great aspiration. Their body, speech and mind have matured through the transmission of initiations, and they recognise in a flash the meaning of mahamudra or dzogchen practice. They know how to meditate in the realm of nonmeditation, nongrasping, and nondistraction, and therefore, there is no doubt that they will attain buddhahood in this life or at the beginning of the bardo”.
Also, yidam practice is attained only by realising that the yidam, the guru, and one’s own mind are in essence indivisible. I personally think it is not that they are relying on an 'invisible being in the sky', but rather the trust in and devotion to their Guru (which is the foundation of all realisation according to the Lamrim) topped with yidam practices that will bring attainments.
As we do not possess skillful means and did not study enough to recognise each being's mind level, we may not know and should not say it should be this or that due to our limited exposure. What if that 'someone' is a high tulku (sorry if you don't believe in them) or just someone who is ready for that instant/ immediate path?
This also validates the need to recognise the "advanced" practitioners so that their path may be swift. Anyway, whether or not they are recognised, their merit/karma will lead them to a Vajra master who will start them off where appropriate.
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Dorje Shugden can manifest in any form he wants. No ONE IN THIS WORLD MAY DICTATE OTHERWISE.
As to what to promote. There are many ppl in the west and east. So just don't regionalize it. Westerners are not superior or their style better just because they 'like' meditation. Westerners have long exploited the earth and other races due to greed for many hundreds of years ago. Suddenly discovering Buddhism isn't going to change that.
You don't like the brochures, then you don't have to repeat yourself over and over.We heard you the forst 10 times. Thanks. You don't have to do it or distribute.
You go and meditate and get enlightened and then we can talk. Unitl then I will pray to shugden for what I need and want on a short and long term basis. And you or any other Westerner or Easterner do not need to curtail my freedom of how I wish to interatct with Dorje Shugden. :)
Dear Thai Monk
Avalokiteshrva manifested as Mahakala protector, thus Mahakala's function is to protect teachings and Dharma practitioners. Thus, we must be able to recongised that Dorje Shugden manifest as Protector now.
Whether east or west side, Lamas will tailor the Dharma practise according to the different mentality of the people and this is about skillful mean.
I think it is a bit rude to mention that Westerners exploit the earth, as this is a sweeping statement and not all westerners are like what you think. Beside most of us are sincere Buddhists who also do care and concern about environment.
I agreed with Lineageholder that it is more effective to distribute and promote the Dharma Center's activities than to give out the DS Broche. I feel that by doing the former, it better suits and attract more devotees. But I am not against DS Broche as it helps to create awareness. At the end of the day, the focus is to make Dharma flourish and reaching out to benefit more mother sentient beings. It is about utilizing the most effective method.
As mentioned earlier, there is certain sequences and procedures to observe in order to obtain the optimum desired results, It is not encourage to "anyhow" to Dharma practice and if not your practice will degenerate. If you advice the wrong practice method to the fellow Dharma practitioners. That will be even more disastrous.
It is also wrong to just do Dorje Shugden's practice as a wishing tree - just pray, make some cheap offering and ask to win the lottery. OF COURSE, it is must bigger than that. We must also be careful not to fall into a trap of relying on him just like we rely on things like tarot cards or fortune tellers or quick fixes like that. Our motivation is to bring ourselves into the Lamrim and bring others to the Lamrim too. If the motivation is clear, then the method will fall into place- whether it is via a brochure or via a long and detailed dharma talk.
LOL...I notice that It is irresistible for some practitioners to regard protector as a wishing tree Many fell trap to rely Him for quick fix. I feel that it is all right to do request and concurrently wish that your Dharma practise will improve, but not at the expense of our homework.
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This probably sounds like a daft question, but do bodhisattvas suffer?
Ordinary bodhisattvas experience pain. In 'Guide to the Middle Way', Chandrakirti says that ordinary bodhisattvas (those who have no direct realization of emptiness) experience pain when they give their bodies to sentient beings:
"through the pain from cutting and giving his body,
He sees through his own experience
The sufferings of others in the hells and elsewhere,
And strives with great effort to eliminate it quickly"
Then he goes on to say that a third ground bodhisattva, who is a superior being, could patiently accept his body being mutilated by someone and that for such a bodhisattva, "what is cut, by whom, at what time, and in what manner, all these phenomena are seen to be like reflections, therefore he is patient".
In summary, superior bodhisattvas do not experience pain, but ordinary bodhisattvas do - however I don't think this means that they suffer. Because they have bodhichitta and have exchanged self with others their experience of pain is transformed into compassion and so their minds remain peaceful.
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Sometimes I always wonder what it's like for these Bodhisattva Lamas. For them to leave their wonderful monasteries and come to Dharmically alien places like England and Europe, not receiving the support from their Sangha family, not having the respect accorded to them etc. and having to deal with many deluded students. I know they are Bodhisattvas and hence they suffer gladly for others, but it still doesn't mean that we should treat them badly.
This probably sounds like a daft question, but do bodhisattvas suffer? After all, isn't suffering a perception of the mind? And aren't Bodhisattvas in full control of their minds? To say they suffer would imply they are subject to the same delusions as us, wouldn't it?
Preharps it is wrong choice of word and I would rather interpret it as Supramudane Bodhisattva give appearance to take on suffering ;D
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Sometimes I always wonder what it's like for these Bodhisattva Lamas. For them to leave their wonderful monasteries and come to Dharmically alien places like England and Europe, not receiving the support from their Sangha family, not having the respect accorded to them etc. and having to deal with many deluded students. I know they are Bodhisattvas and hence they suffer gladly for others, but it still doesn't mean that we should treat them badly.
This probably sounds like a daft question, but do bodhisattvas suffer? After all, isn't suffering a perception of the mind? And aren't Bodhisattvas in full control of their minds? To say they suffer would imply they are subject to the same delusions as us, wouldn't it?
Preharps it is wrong choice of word and I would rather interpret it as Supramudane Bodhisattva give appearance to take on suffering ;D
I do think that some Lamas are enlightened Bodhisattvas and they manifest suffering as a Dharma teaching to us at our level. These holy beings manifest unhappiness when we do not do what we are supposed to do, manifest illness as a result of the students' broken samaya etc. - all out of compassion to help us realise something.
Even though they may not suffer in our sense of suffering, they manifest suffering so that we can see karma in action - the results of our actions. And again, just because they are bodhisattvas and may forgive us for our transgressions, it doesn't mean we treat them badly because we will accrue the negative karma as described in the 50 Stanzas of Guru Devotion (http://www.bodhicitta.net/FIFTY%20STANZAS%20OF%20GURU%20DEVOTION.htm).
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LOL...I notice that It is irresistible for some practitioners to regard protector as a wishing tree Many fell trap to rely Him for quick fix. I feel that it is all right to do request and concurrently wish that your Dharma practise will improve, but not at the expense of our homework.
Yes, it is true that many people in the east or in asian cultures have a strong reliance or faith in the power of the Buddhas. I have many Asian friends like this, even here in America where I am now! Sometimes I would say that it even borders on superstition.
But this can also be seen VERY WIDELY throughout the west. How popular are all those phone lines of psychics and tarot card readers? Have you been those new age kinda festivals they have all over in Europe? People consult mediums, psychics, divinations, people who claim to see visions – it is everywhere now, almost uncontrollable! This can also be dangerous.
The difference is that Dorje Shugden IS a fully enlightened being. If these are all these people out there in the world who rely on these kinds of things, wouldn’t it be better to put in their way something that is actually authentic, NOT HARMFUL and can help them to create a connection to the three jewels, full enlightenment. Engage them by their attachments – this is the very method of tantra, no?
BUT THEN AGAIN, as you have also so rightly pointed out, IT CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT STOP THERE. We cannot be relying on Dorje Shugden for money, relationships, quick fixes, for the rest of our lives.
What you said is very correct and should be the way: it is all right to do request and concurrently wish that your Dharma practise will improve
This is our hope and motivation with every being that we introduce Dorje Shugden to – to bring them ultimately to lamrim and lojong and full enlightenment. The superstition, the brochures or whatever is just an initial attraction point. You’re right though, all this should not be at the expense of doing our own homework, learning up and getting proper understanding.
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Personally, I think that most average person, myself included, would not be seeking Enlightenment when we first enter into Dharma. To be exact, I just wanted to find a better way to deal with my list of personal issues. However, as time passed by, I find myself more focused and my desire to learn the Dharma began to shift as my mind shifted.
I think, for whatever reason a person may start practising the Dharma, with Protector Practice, all their obstacles will be removed in order for each person to learn the REAL DHARMA.
It may begin as a personal wish-fulfilling practice but it will change into a wish fulfilling practice to benefit others as well as self.
As Dorje Shugden's main purpose is ultimately to bring people to do the Dharma, HE will work to remove all obstacles to each person and bring about what he or she desires in order for real faith to arise in him or her. Once people's faith arises in Dorje Shugden, HE will undoubtedly move them into the TRUE DHARMA practice. And that will be Lam Rim.
To me, it matters not how each start, it is what they end up practising or realising that makes all the difference in their world.
As Dorje Shugden is swift, so will each person's path to Enlightenment - whether they know it or not, whether they want it or not in the beginning.
Yes, most people would not be seeking Enlightenment when they first entered the dharma but will be more interested in having their worldly obstacles cleared. So by doing Dorje Shugden's practice with faith, those obstacles will be cleared and when one sees that it brings results, there will be a mind shift and improvement into the real dharma practice….the lam rim.
As posted by tk: “Therefore, anything associated with Dorje Shugden is pure Dharma. No less and no more.”
The most important is the end results of the practice.
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I agree with Pgdharma. I have heard that as skillful means, some teachers would use the protector's help to eliminate obstacles of their students and bestow protector practices to the students.
When the students see results due to the help from protector or from their propitiation, their faith increases and hence they are more interested and committed in their Dharma study and practice. For example, those with problems like spirit possession or black magic , or even those who requested for mo (divination) who later become committed students and sponsors of a lama.
Like what beggar said, many people in the east or in asian cultures have a strong reliance or faith in the power of the Buddhas. Some of them might pray to the Buddha (and protector) like a wishing tree, but it could be because they had no teacher to teach them what Buddhism is about, and in our (Asian) culture here, many still go to the temple to make a wish, and then make offerings when their wishes are fulfilled. Hence, isn't it skillful means to build on what the students already know/ have in their culture, and slowly bring them to the path ?
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Wow, thanks everyone for the rich sharing of information, points of view and experience.
There were points of view that mystical practice is the way of the East and, thus, worship of Dorje Shugden may not be as attractive compared to learning of lojong, lamrim etc. However, from what I understand, the practice of Dorje Shugden in the West is very strong and growing steadily. Therefore, based on result, Dorje Shugden practice is appealing to both the East and West. What is important is the skilful mean in which we bring our Great King’s worship to benefit others.
Vajraprotector, thank you for sharing the 2 types of general path (slow and instant) available in a Dharma journey. It brings to mind the story of Milerapa who had to do mundane work like baby sit, cook and clean for more than a decade before officially receiving a single piece of pure Dharma teachings from His Root Guru, Marpa, which started his journey towards enlightenment within that same lifetime! From this, I gather that our path can change depending on our motivation and efforts, which influence our merits. Nothing is permanent and what appeared to be a dreadfully slow journey may take a turn because we caused our positive karma opened.
I also agree with Vajrprotector that “Yidam practice is attained only by realizing that the Yidam, the Guru, and one’s own mind are in essence indivisible”. We all have our Buddha within, but we often need the “help” of the Buddha without to bring forth the Buddha within. At the end of the day, we are all interconnected.
Additionally, Vajraprotector quoted beggar: “many people in the east or in asian cultures have a strong reliance or faith in the power of the Buddhas. Some of them might pray to the Buddha (and protector) like a wishing tree, but it could be because they had no teacher to teach them what Buddhism is about, and in our (Asian) culture here, many still go to the temple to make a wish, and then make offerings when their wishes are fulfilled. Hence, isn't it skillful means to build on what the students already know/ have in their culture, and slowly bring them to the path ?”
I agree with the tendency of Asian communicaties, where many people’s spiritual practice is action oriented: make a donation, light incense, go to the temple, bow to Buddha images etc. Furthermore, I would like to add that I believe this is due to the level of intellectual education in Asian communities that (in the past more than today) are slightly behind the west. However, the good news is that the seed for Dharma is deeply ingrained for centuries and the re-opening of the seeds would not be as difficult as finding new fertile soil to plant the seed.
Taking this into consideration together with many other factors (such as our horrendous degeneration and result-oriented habits), our kind Buddha and Protector works patiently with our perception so that we can overcome some of our obstacles and persevere in our Dharma journey. Granting our wishes acts as the carrot to develop trust and faith. However, it is not going to be long term if wishes asked are motivated by selfish reasons (no Buddha or Protector will encourage us to indulge in our ignorance and self-cherishing!). Therefore, as practitioners stay on the path and collect the merits, their Dharma journey deepens and they will develop true and pure understanding and practice of Dharma.
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Granting our wishes acts as the carrot to develop trust and faith. However, it is not going to be long term if wishes asked are motivated by selfish reasons (no Buddha or Protector will encourage us to indulge in our ignorance and self-cherishing!). Therefore, as practitioners stay on the path and collect the merits, their Dharma journey deepens and they will develop true and pure understanding and practice of Dharma.
I agree with what Shugden Protect wrote above.
The Buddhas, Enlightened Beings and Protectors will use whatever means to 'attract us' into Dharma.
It may begin with very secular and material things but the spiritual journey will inevitably blossom from there because that is within the Enlightened Ones's skillful means. They will bring us into the Dharma somehow.
However, whether we stay on the path is another story. As well as how fast or slow we improve or transform. These are solely dependent on us and not the Enlightened Beings and Protectors. They are constantly doing their jobs, but are we doing ours to become better? Let's not even talk about Enlightenment here. Just better.
If we have become better, then its proof that your spiritual journey has begun.
May we all remain on the path and work diligently and devoted to remain on the path until we achieve Enlightenment.
May we ourselves remove the darkness within and become the Light for ourselves and others.
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Thanks Beggar,
I have had the empowerment quite a few times since then and recieved lots of teachings also. I appreciate your advice. There are a lot of people studying and attempting to practice Tantra without having had proper guidance and blessings to do so,because its easy to get books that are about these practices. I tried to do a Padmasambhava practice years ago from something I had read in a book.
Anyone can practice the sadhana daily of Heart Jewel or Wishfulfilling Jewel and Lama Chopa also which has lots of tantra in it..and of course Kangso. HYT empowerment enables us to practice anything within our tradition.
Bringing the result into the path when we strongly imagine we are a Buddha in Essence of Good Fortune (Buddha Shakyamuni) can be done without any type of ritual blessing or whatever we call it.
Taking and Giving is very "Tantric"...no empowerment needed.
Nothing can compare with the live transmission of teachings from a qualified teacher,no matter what it is!
I read somewhere about some sort of crystal being given to disciples by the Guru re Dorje Shugden. As far as I can remember we were given a crystal by Geshe Kelsang...if we werent then i must have dreamt it or imagined it!!!
It is in my heart...it is a Heart Jewel....
The purpose of all this is to help All living beings be free from all suffering permanently...Dorje shugden has been with me all my life protecting me...he is my protector. I certainly wont come to any harm trying to practice secret mantra...only if I tried to do it for worldly non virtuous reasons..thats not possible if we have the 4 wheels tightly fitted for our practice...Renunciation,Refuge,Correct View Of Emptiness and Bodhichitta....without this we can fiddle about with inner winds,drops channels etc..till we are blue in the face..nothings gonna happen.
Im only speaking from my own perspective...ive been saved by my protector in situations where i "should" have died so i dont think im going to come to any harm practising pure Dharma...quite the opposite..and yes of course i make tons of "mistakes"..thats the purpose of Vajrasattva and all the other purifying rituals within secret mantra practices.
Love is the greatest protector..if we dont dive in to our practice..when will it ever begin??..tomorrow?..we all know that never comes. love andy xxxxxxxx
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When you recieve the Dorje Shugden initiation (sogtae), you will recieve two items to be kept with you for life. One is a 'mandala or protection wheel' folded and wrapped in colored consecrated strings. Second is a crystal with his sacred mantras written on it.
tk
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Anyone can practice the sadhana daily of Heart Jewel or Wishfulfilling Jewel and Lama Chopa also which has lots of tantra in it..and of course Kangso.
(...)
I certainly wont come to any harm trying to practice secret mantra...only if I tried to do it for worldly non virtuous reasons..thats not possible if we have the 4 wheels tightly fitted for our practice...Renunciation,Refuge,Correct View Of Emptiness and Bodhichitta....without this we can fiddle about with inner winds,drops channels etc..till we are blue in the face..nothings gonna happen.
Hi Andy,
It sure is good to hear someone write so passionately about their practice and have so much commitment to the practice and the path. However, I would like to refer to some of what you said in your last post, which I quoted above. I am quite concerned that you mention "we can fiddle about with inner winds, drops channels etc til we are blue in the face, nothing's gonna happen". In the sense of Dharma: yes, nothing will happen and we won't gain the attainments or enlightened results because we are practising it without any real basis.
However, something will still "happen" that could potentially be harmful to you. If you're not practising on a firm basis or if you haven't already mastered the basic teachings and practices that your teacher has given to you, then doing tantric and secret practices can be like giving a child a big bunch of matches - you don't really have control of what you are doing, don't have the foundation, and are not fully versed or able to protect yourself and do the practices in the right way. See, fire can be very, very helpful for us if we know how to manage it; but if we don't, we just blow ourselves up or burn ourselves (and others)! So tantra is a lot like this.
The best way is to seek your lama's advice and he will be able to tell you how to proceed. Maybe you are already all ready for tantra, so your teacher will then give you all the right steps and instructions to follow and pass you the initiation/empowerment. If you are unsure, or if you come across a practice that you haven't received any formal initiation/empowerment, I would advise you to err on the side of caution and not just simply do it on your own steam. It could be more trouble than it's worth for yourself and others in the long run.
good luck!
yours, beggar
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I am a HUGE fan of this website. Some of the views on it does not match with mine. But so what? Where else better than here is there to go to? Why find differences in a few issues, why not find commonality with the huge similarities.
Anyway if I don't like it, I DON'T HAVE TO COME HERE, but where can I go? I am addicted to this site.
I sure can't set up something like this with the time, energy, money, knowledge, research, thousands of hours necessary.
So I am here to stay and my respect for this site grows all the time.
Mehtra
San Diego
(source: post from guestbook)
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If any of the Oracles of Dorje Shugden recognizes a tulku, I will trust and believe all the way. If there was no use for the Tulku system, Dorje Shugden would not entertain any inquiries. Also if the Tulku system was damaging, then of course, Dorje Shugden would not recognize any Tulkus.
With the increase of skeptics in Buddhism, I can see as well why people would doubt the tulku system. Fundamentally, many new age Buddhists feel that Buddhism is free of beliefs and dogmas and we do not need to believe anything to be Buddhist, including the theories of karma and reincarnation which are the cornerstone of Buddhism. So thus, they would not buy into the tulku system at all.
The Tulku system is so very important within Tibetan Buddhism in general and within the Gelug system. We will die, we will reincarnate and we will take rebirth. So if we practice the tantras correctly, one of the side benefits is that we can control our rebirth. So two and two makes four. If we can take charge of our rebirth, then why not Tulkus.
In other words, tulkus are the living proof that the Buddha's teachings are real and it is something that is tangible. results that are tangible. And this increases people's faith in the Buddha's teachings. If one were to deny the tulku system it would be the same as saying that the Buddha's teachings have no effect.
Within Tulkus, there are many level of attainments also. Their ranks or height of their thrones do not always indicate their attainments. How far a tulku has progressed on the path in their previous lives is how much control they will have over their rebirths.
I for one, am all for the Tulku system which is alive, active and thriving. Many great Tulkus are able to return, be recognized and continue their work. It is very important for the Dorje Shugden lineage tulkus to return. It proves to everyone clearly that practicing Dorje Shugden does not bring negative states of rebirth. How can the worship of a Buddha such as Dorje Shugden bring damage in any way.
personally i feel that it is not just that people will not see harm in Dorje Shugden but also of the benefit he can bring others if the line of tulkus were to be re-established. There will be many more people that will be able meet the Dharma and also reap results from it in a quicker and faster way. It will also cement people's faith in the Gelug lineage as well as they can see direct and tangible results.
When we worship Dorje Shugden, we are worshipping Manjushri. Since we are worshipping Manjushri, we are connecting to all the matured wisdom of all Buddhas. Therefore the 7 limbs offered to Dorje Shugden is equal to offering the 7 limbs to all the Buddhas of the ten directions and three times. It is incredible merits just to offer one light or a single stick of incense to Dorje Shugden.
Thank you! You inspired me to make more offerings to Dorje Shugden to gain the merits to support my Dharma practice as I do need to keep my Dharma practice afloat.
Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal. It would be the first text of it's kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and hence making it quick in attainments. I wish very much a text and practice for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a yidam would arise. I would IMMEDIATELY engage in the practice and await the festival of attainments to be gained in order to benefit others to happen.
Wow! Even thinking about its possibility brings tingles and chills to my spine. Being one with Dorje Shugden would be incredible as he has benefitted so many people and so many more will benefit from him. I would really love to do that practice as well because one of my utmost wish is to be able to be of benefit to other beings in the ultimate way!
tk
I found this very inspiring old post that really sent tingles down my spine about Dorje Shugden being a Yidam, because to me, he already is one, or so that is what I have ever felt about him, a yidam taking the form of a protector and somehow what TK has said matches with what I knew...
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If any of the Oracles of Dorje Shugden recognizes a tulku, I will trust and believe all the way. If there was no use for the Tulku system, Dorje Shugden would not entertain any inquiries. Also if the Tulku system was damaging, then of course, Dorje Shugden would not recognize any Tulkus.
The Tulku system is so very important within Tibetan Buddhism in general and within the Gelug system. We will die, we will reincarnate and we will take rebirth. So if we practice the tantras correctly, one of the side benefits is that we can control our rebirth. So two and two makes four. If we can take charge of our rebirth, then why not Tulkus.
Within Tulkus, there are many level of attainments also. Their ranks or height of their thrones do not always indicate their attainments. How far a tulku has progressed on the path in their previous lives is how much control they will have over their rebirths.
I for one, am all for the Tulku system which is alive, active and thriving. Many great Tulkus are able to return, be recognized and continue their work. It is very important for the Dorje Shugden lineage tulkus to return. It proves to everyone clearly that practicing Dorje Shugden does not bring negative states of rebirth. How can the worship of a Buddha such as Dorje Shugden bring damage in any way.
When we worship Dorje Shugden, we are worshipping Manjushri. Since we are worshipping Manjushri, we are connecting to all the matured wisdom of all Buddhas. Therefore the 7 limbs offered to Dorje Shugden is equal to offering the 7 limbs to all the Buddhas of the ten directions and three times. It is incredible merits just to offer one light or a single stick of incense to Dorje Shugden.
Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal. It would be the first text of it's kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and hence making it quick in attainments. I wish very much a text and practice for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a yidam would arise. I would IMMEDIATELY engage in the practice and await the festival of attainments to be gained in order to benefit others to happen.
tk
Thank you for the insight, tk. Dorje Shugden is Manjushri. Praying to Dorje Shugden is equivalent to praying to Manjushri and we tap into the wisdom of all the Buddhas. If there is a need, I don't see why Dorje Shugden wouldn't arises as a Yidam. He's fully enlightened and fully capable to be a Yidam. If Manjushri can be a Yidam, Dorje Shugden who is Manjushri, can equally be a Yidam.
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I have been thinking alot about this subject on how different this would be in reference to other protectors deities and also meditational Yidams and how it would affect mankind.
Dorje Shugden is with no doubt an Enlightened Being with the same attainments as that of Buddha Shakyamuni and Je Tsongkhapa. How he chooses to manifest himself is entirely dependent on not only his attainments but the needs and disposition of the people whom he will be helping.
Having arisen as an uncommon protector to the Gaden tradition(that is enlightened on the inside but portrays a worldly manner) He has both benefitted the masses of people both lay and ordained and also brought Buddhism of the Ganden tradition into the forefront of the world. Never mind who and how he protects, the results of Dorje Shugden having manifested in this form during this day and time has shown inconceivable results which has brought us here to help spread the good word of benefit.
On a personal level, Dorje Shugden does not look like another deity in Buddhism who is stucked within the Tibetan community but instead an entity which would be like a messiah to the new world chucked with the side effects of modernization(depression, anxiety, desperation, you name it, we all have it, and it is all growing and festering in our silly minds).
In the interim of the outbreak of modern illness, Dorje Shugden has chosen its form to help people though in the scriptures it is stated that he manifests himself in various forms to subdue the minds of people, it is evident that someday in the near future(I hope!) that he would manifest himself as a meditational deity who would calm the minds down and help people in coping with their lives and eventually lead them into enlightenment.
Depression, anxiety, and other forms of mental illness seems to be a choice these days. It is rarely a medical case within mental institutes that when u look deeper is someone or some entity forcing the mentally disturbed person to act in such a way. With this as a basis, it is rather evident that meditation in the proper way will help heal these afflicted people.
I pray that Dorje Shugden will manifest himself as a Yidam within all four classes of Tantras to be able to help these difficult people, pouring cure and attainments to them.
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Thank you for bringing this topic. After reading what is the differences between a Yidam and a Dharma protector, ( http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1223.msg15631#msg15631 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1223.msg15631#msg15631)), from the Buddha aspect, there is no different Dorje Shugden from Manjushri. However, from the prayers/meditation/practices aspect, a Yidam and a Dharma Protector prayers will evoke different things and bring about different results in our mindstream. E.g. yidam practices focus more on mind transformation, dharma protector practices focus on aspects such as confessions / making serkym offerings which help us to remove obstacles. So, there are slight differences and Yidam & a Dharma Protector complement one another in our practices.
Therefore, it would be wonderful to have text/prayers for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a yidam. Then it will have even greater effects & benefits to practice Dorje Shugden as he is so much closer to us. I am sure more people will be benefited from Dorje Shugden too!
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I would really like to see Dorje Shugden arise as a yidam. Why? Because he has close proximity with us and he can benefit us more easily than just a normal Dharma protector. His peaceful aspect, Duldzin, is known to give Dharma talks when in trance and has even given initiations before. Perhaps someone could request Duldzin to manifest as a Yidam or give us transmissions as one.
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Personally, I think that most average person, myself included, would not be seeking Enlightenment when we first enter into Dharma. To be exact, I just wanted to find a better way to deal with my list of personal issues. However, as time passed by, I find myself more focused and my desire to learn the Dharma began to shift as my mind shifted.
I think, for whatever reason a person may start practising the Dharma, with Protector Practice, all their obstacles will be removed in order for each person to learn the REAL DHARMA.
It may begin as a personal wish-fulfilling practice but it will change into a wish fulfilling practice to benefit others as well as self.
As Dorje Shugden's main purpose is ultimately to bring people to do the Dharma, HE will work to remove all obstacles to each person and bring about what he or she desires in order for real faith to arise in him or her. Once people's faith arises in Dorje Shugden, HE will undoubtedly move them into the TRUE DHARMA practice. And that will be Lam Rim.
To me, it matters not how each start, it is what they end up practising or realising that makes all the difference in their world.
As Dorje Shugden is swift, so will each person's path to Enlightenment - whether they know it or not, whether they want it or not in the beginning.
Helena, it is a real joy reading what you have written here. There is such a lot of great information in this post, that I was beginning to get lost and developing mental indigestion from trying to consume all the knowledge herein, although I would certainly come back for more. Like you said, I certainly did not come into Dharma with expectations of receiving empowerment into any higher practice nor could I conceive of the state of enlightenment that can be had. Sure it is a nice aspiration but hardly realistic when I am still struggling with the basic mind transformation practices.
However, if attaining Buddhahood is a process by which I am to transform myself into a body of perfect enlightenment by eliminating my afflictive emotions that shrouds my elusive true nature as we are told, and meditating on a yidam is a part of that process, then Dorje Shugden is in many ways already my yidam-in-waiting because every aspect of the Protector's practice is to help me deal with and remove the destructive feelings that I, like many struggle with. We all know how we are each afflicted by our own minds and how difficult it is to tackle our infirmities by ourselves and this is where Dorje Shugden certainly helps.
When we sit in quiet communion with the Protector and establish a connection with him, we become aware of the kind of thoughts he wants us to have, the kind of speech that would please him and the kind of bodily conduct that he would approve of. We just know if we are open to him. The more we come to know and trust Dorje Shugden the more we sense him, and from there the more we realize who this special Protector is, and the more we become aware of who we are not, and who we can be. I have always thought that if I could hold the Protector in my mind all the time and not let go for some random thought, my Dharma practice would improve as a matter of natural progression. Perhaps that is a bit too simplistic but it is a thought.
For me, Dorje Shugden is special and I am not alone when I say that he is a Buddha that I feel I have a real relationship with (and how fortunate for us that Dorje Shugden has taken the form he has, so that we can actually do that). And so it was a pleasant surprise when I read Chogyam Trungpa saying, "choosing" a yidam is a "choiceless choice" meaning it is not a function of the mind but a function of the heart. It is a relationship. Therefore if my Protector can also arise as my yidam, it is a real bonus and I am sure Dorje Shugden will reveal himself to be so when I am adequately practiced. The details will take care of themselves.
Thank you for this post.
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"Dorje Shugden is a Dharma Protector who has arisen in this form specifically to safeguard our Dharma practice. Therefore, the very moment we begin our spiritual connection with him through our prayers, offerings and refuge is the moment he begins his work to sustain us on the spiritual path."
"Yidam is a means mental bond or mind link. It refers to vivid meditations designed to bring the
Buddha’s teaching to life in one’s mind as quickly as possible." In other words practitioner's mind eventually becomes one with the Yidam, having the same qualities.
If the two were combined in to one practice... we really need not seek any other other practice because it would so complete and whole.
Right now we would need to do our Yidam practice e.g. Manjushri first and it is separate from the Protector's practice... but if both of them were combined as one, for today's modern day practitioner, it would so helpful and the path would be quicker I would presume.
Definitely it would be such a delight to have such a practice made available for today's modern busy people who wishes everything to be quick and easy... sad to say but it is a true fact. Although I myself am quite happy and comfortable with my Yidam and Protector practice as it is now... but thinking more for those who are new... it would be less complicated and easier to grasp.
If it is suited I am sure the Dorje Shugden would manifest something.
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Definitely it would be such a delight to have such a practice made available for today's modern busy people who wishes everything to be quick and easy... sad to say but it is a true fact. Although I myself am quite happy and comfortable with my Yidam and Protector practice as it is now... but thinking more for those who are new... it would be less complicated and easier to grasp.
If it is suited I am sure the Dorje Shugden would manifest something.
I dont think we should wait for the protector to give it to us, I think we should request earnestly to show our sincerity and enthusiasm towards something that would be so beneficial to so many people, because for all Buddhist teachings, we do request the teacher before they are taught, traditionally so we should logically do the same for a Yidam practice from Dorje Shugden himself. We should be more proactive for Dharma practices that will benefit many in particular, as it will create the causes for us to receive and understand more Dharma.
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Definitely it would be such a delight to have such a practice made available for today's modern busy people who wishes everything to be quick and easy... sad to say but it is a true fact. Although I myself am quite happy and comfortable with my Yidam and Protector practice as it is now... but thinking more for those who are new... it would be less complicated and easier to grasp.
If it is suited I am sure the Dorje Shugden would manifest something.
I dont think we should wait for the protector to give it to us, I think we should request earnestly to show our sincerity and enthusiasm towards something that would be so beneficial to so many people, because for all Buddhist teachings, we do request the teacher before they are taught, traditionally so we should logically do the same for a Yidam practice from Dorje Shugden himself. We should be more proactive for Dharma practices that will benefit many in particular, as it will create the causes for us to receive and understand more Dharma.
True Ensapa! What would be the best way to request for such a wonderful teaching? The oracle Or the current Pabongkha RInpoche or Trijang Rinpoche? Do you know what would be requirements? A Clean Samaya?
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True Ensapa! What would be the best way to request for such a wonderful teaching? The oracle Or the current Pabongkha RInpoche or Trijang Rinpoche? Do you know what would be requirements? A Clean Samaya?
we could request directly from the oracle himself as that is Dorje Shugden, what could be better than requesting it directly from the wisdom being himself? It would be auspicious indeed, unless he tells us to request from another Lama. Clean samaya is definitely a must for any tantric practice, and there is no exception with Dorje Shugden as well if he arises as a Yidam. But to me, he is already a Yidam as he gives advice and blessings as well in addition to protection.
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"Yidam is a means mental bond or mind link. It refers to vivid meditations designed to bring the
Buddha’s teaching to life in one’s mind as quickly as possible." In other words practitioner's mind eventually becomes one with the Yidam, having the same qualities." Quote from dsiluvu.
In these days of ''busyness'' it would be much easier to have Dorje Shugden both as the Protector and Yidam. From understanding of the above from disluvu, and since Dorje Shugden is the uncommon protector of Je Tsongkapa's doctrine, it seem possible to have the Yidam and Protector as one.
Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and that alone will suffice for being a Yidam.
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Dondrup Shugden, Dorje Shugden is a Dharmapala, not a Yidam. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I have never heard of deity Yoga practice as this Dharmapala. Though we regard him as the Guru, Yidam, and Protector, this is a subtle meaning in relation to Guru Yoga as the heart of the path, and does not mean we actually do self-generation as Dorje Shugden.