dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: thaimonk on July 22, 2010, 10:20:38 AM
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Is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso a Geshe? I am not saying he is not, or think negatively of him, I am just wondering where this comes from? It is apparently written by a close student? The statement below published by NKT secretary 1998:
http://www.nktworld.org/gyatsocred.html
The below statement does not make Geshe Kelsang unqualified to teach or hold lineages, but it is undermining and reavealing regarding his student's stances.
1. Is he a Geshe?
2. Has he recieved forwards for his earlier books from Dalai Lama?b Which book(s)? Does anyone know?
3. If he has, does he used Dalai Lama's reference to him as Geshe to be the basis of a Geshe doctrate holder?
4. If the Dalai Lama is a liar as purported by some NKT members/Geshe-la, then did the Dalai Lama lie when he referred to Geshe-la as a Geshe in his forward?
5. Geshe Kelsang and Dalai Lama had this fall out ONLY BECAUSE OF THE SHUGDEN issue? So Geshe-la has all pictures of Dalai Lama removed from NKT because he doesn't agree with Dalai Lama? So should all pictures/drawings of Trijang Rinpoche be removed from NKT because Trijang Rinpoche believed in the tulku/oracle institution?
6. Did Geshe-la and Lama Yeshe have a fall out? Lama Yeshe was not a Geshe doctrate holder also I heard. Neither is Lama Zopa (his student), but they both have organizations well known throughout the world. If Geshe-la had a fall out with Lama Yeshe decades ago and with Dalai Lama, aren't we taught to have patience and forgive?
These are questions that arise in my mind when I came across the below article. Can anyone clarify the points? Just the points please?
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GYATSO CREDENTIALS
NKT's support for Gyatso's purported Geshe degree is quoted below. However, there is no evidence of an actual document (degree) such as those granted by academic institutions. To NKT, since Gyatso seemed like he received a degree, he did.
'Geshe' is an academic-like degree granted by a monastery, not a university. While Gyatso was a Buddhist monk in the Gelug tradition during his training (never completed) to earn the Geshe degree, he has since separated from Tibetan Buddhism. Thus, in effect, by creating an indepedant 'religion' Gyatso ordained himself and granted himself a Geshe degree.
(Gyatso is not a Lama, which is a title of respect for a Tibetan teacher of Buddhism, eg The Dalai Lama, Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa and Lama Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche - all subject to abuse by Gyatso and his NKT corporation on NKT web sites and in NKT protest rallies.)
Letters to and about Gyatso from Sera Monastery (August 1996) offically expelling Gyatso are instructive and unequivocal, and other comments from Tibet are appropos...
From Sera Je,
"His Holiness The Dalai Lama is the undisputed leader of the six million Tibetans and a world renowned Buddhist leader as well as a respected statesman of great charisma for which he was awarded the prestigious 1989 Nobel Peace Prize among many others. His genuine concern for the welfare of the Tibetan people, the weak and the down trodden and his teachings on compassion to bring about a more humane and harmonious world and his call for the protection of all forms of life on our planet and their habitat in the form of what he termed as ‘Universal Responsibility’ has caught the imagination of the world and is held in great esteem by virtually the whole world irrespective of their religious affiliations or political ideology.
However, it is a measure of profound sorrow that a so called “Geshe” Kelsang Gyatso and his English supporters have embarked upon a ruthless smear campaign to tarnish the International stature of His Holiness The Dalai Lama in the name of alleged “religious persecution”. It is nothing short of blasphemy in the eyes of the overwhelming majority of the six million Tibetans.
It is nothing but a crude form of debasing the Dalai Lama for his own selfish ends...We have nothing but pity for your ignorance...Why not mind his own business and do what he likes in his own bigoted kingdom?
Actions speak louder than words and we are under no illusion with whom your sympathies are despite your statements to the contrary. The Tibetans all over the world were deeply distressed by your attempt to portray the Dalai Lama as a “ruthless dictator” an “oppressor of his own people” and smash his International stature so that the Tibetan struggle will be like a rudderless ship tossing helplessly in the sea of international intrigues and treacery. From where did you borrow your vocabulary to malign the Dalai Lama? Are they not straight from the Chinese propaganda dictionary?
These days, [in Kelsang Gyatso] the demonic cloud of overwhelming arrogance displays itself with a mass of deluded pride, like a bat who thinks he is above the sky…. This demon with broken commitments…. burns with the flame of unbearable spite towards the unsurpassed omniscient 14th Dalai Lama, the only staff of life of religious people in Tibet, whose activities and kindness are equal to the sky.
...Kelsang Gyatso who is today a pariah in the Tibetan community...
We advise him to accept the fact that he is an ordinary being and stand no chance whatsoever to challenge the Dalai Lama. He is not even a Geshe. The so called “third Buddha” is a figment of imagination conjured up by his fawning desciples as a propaganda tool to attract more people to his centre and that it should not go to his head.
Kelsang himself has transgressed the eight shortcomings of relying wrongly upon his own spiritual master H.H. The Dalai Lama. According to the circular released by the Sera Jhe Tsangpa Khangtsen, to whom Kelsang belonged, he had received both sutra and tantric teachings from H.H. The Dalai Lama when he was in Tibet. He had received the fifth Dalai Lama’s Lamrim Jampel Shalung at the Norbu Linka summer palace and the Kalachakra Initiation in 1956 from H.H.The Dalai Lama which incidently was the first Kalachakra initiation by the fourteenth Dalai Lama. As it were, there is simply no question of his not being a desciple of H.H. The Dalai Lama but he has ignored this aspect and launched a blistering attack on the Dalai Lama in the name of “religious persecution” along with his gullible followers. The outcome of all this attempt to denigrate the person of the of Dalai Lama by Kelsang clearly transgressed his spiritual relationship with the Dalai Lama and though he has mentioned in his letter that “all of us are destined to go to hell”, we are in no doubt that he will infact be the one who will land in hell.
We have therefore stripped him of his membership from our Sera Jhe Dratsang since the holy scriptures have clearly prescribed to evict such apostates who will foul the Sanga community’s spiritual purity and serenity and will have a negative influence for the whole community. Owing to the above reasons contained in the holy Tantric treatises, the Sera Jhe Dratsang’s Abbot and ex-abbots, Reincarnations of holy Lamas, Geshes, and the House Masters of the fifteen different Houses unanimously decided to strip Kelsang Gyatso of his membership in the Sera Jhe Dratsang and his own House had earlier done the same.
He states that for the last eighteen years the Dalai Lama has done nothing!!! His hatred towards the Dalai Lama obscures him from seeing any merit of the Dalai Lama...It is not the fault of the holy Buddha, nor Lama Tsongkhapa nor H.H.The Dalai Lama but the beholder like Kelsang Gyatso whose demonic instinct get the better of them...He is an object of pity and nothing else.
We sincerely hope that the cult leader and his fanatical supporters go through this and think twice before their vitriolic outpourings on the holy person of the Dalai Lama. We believe you would trust the Chinese version more than ours and because of this we took the liberty to quote from the Chinese communist periodical. It would be even better if you would care to go through the whole article and you will be surprised that even the Chinese communists have far greater respect for the Dalai Lama than cult leader Kelsang Gyatso and his cultists in Cumbria, England!!! What’s more, if any one disagrees with his “pure” cult, he gets the boot...But with Kalsang anything goes, after all he is the “third buddha” in the British Isles.
His venomous invectives against the Dalai Lama is unbecoming of a Buddhist...
The sacrilege he was committing by banning the photos of the Dalai Lama and even the utterance of his name in the premises of his cult kingdom. It is an unheard piece of news which every Tibetan will condemn with the severest indiction. The motivation behind this act was, he was now planning to wean away innocent, unsuspecting, young minds towards his cultist school called the “New Kadampa Tradition” which imposes a ban on Tibet’s Spiritual and Temporal leader the Dalai Lama and thus undermine his authority even in the exile community. His single minded motivation now is to undermine the authority of the Dalai Lama and maroon the Tibetan people. This is unacceptable to the six million Tibetans and we will challenge him for this.
In his apparent ecstasy, he even disowns being a Tibetan and works against the very people where he was born.
His Holiness Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama, is the embodiment of the compassion of all Buddhas, the golden flower in the land of snows, Tibet, the form of the deity who has appeared in Tibet, the representative of Buddha Shakyamuni, the spiritual leader of all Buddhists in the world, and the great advocate of non-violence.
For those who come from the land of snow mountains, to find in His Holiness our sacred source of refuge for this and future lives is truly our inborn nature, like our eyes which give us sight and our innermost heart.
(referring to Gyatso)...Possessed by a terrible demon, without shame, embarrassment, or modesty, he doesn't have even the slightest care or concern for any of the commitments of the three vows [pratimoksha, bodhicitta, and tantric] which he undertook.
He continuously broadcasts blatantly shameless mad pronouncements, attacking with baseless slander His Holiness the Dalai Lama, whose kindness for us, the people of Tibet, has been greater that the Buddhas of the three times. These unimaginable statements which defame the name of His Holiness have created an urgent adverse situation which no Tibetan can tolerate.
Therefore, all those connected with Sera Je College, lamas and tulkus, abbots, former executives, senior and junior geshes, together with the leaders of the individual khangtsen [regional houses], all together, in agreement, with one voice, hereby proclaim that on this day, August 22, 1996, Kelsang Gyatso, the one with broken commitments and wrong view, is cast out with the "ritual nine expulsions," and is thereby banished from this place, and the being a part of the rule of our College.
This means that we request all of our brothers and sisters, the Tibetan people inside and outside Tibet, to completely sever any relationship with him. Concerning the practice of worshiping divine protectors at this Monastery in particular, the protector who was directed by the previous great masters to advise, command, and look after our Monastery is the Dharma protector Dregpa Chamsing [Dregs Pa lCam Sring). Aside from this protector there has traditionally been no worship of Dolgyal [Dorje Shugden].
These days, we keep in the honored position on the crown of our heads the instructions of our Government, the great Ganden Potrang. Therefore, all sangha who reside here, as evidence of their commitment not to worship the protector Dolgyal, have freely signed such a pledge, and offered it before the clear eye of His Holiness. Beyond that, anyone who is not blind should be able to comprehend this with their ordinary eye of understanding and mind of attachment and aversion; as they say, no one needs a lamp to make things clear in the light of the sun and moon.
For the future, we publicly make the strongest request to everyone not to associate the good name of Sera Je Monastery with this holder of broken commitments and wrong view."
Representatives of the Tibetan people echoed these sentiments about Gyatso's fall from the Buddhist path.
For example, from the Freedom Movement, Youth Congress, Tibetan Women's Association and representatives of the Three Provinces Movement,
"… you are doomed life after life… telling others not to keep pictures of the Dalai Lama reveals that, although you wear the mask of a religious practitioner, in reality you are the running dog of China and Taiwan. Therefore, we the Tibetan people both inside and outside Tibet will unitedly stand against you as a source of harm to the spiritual and temporal affairs of Tibetans."
From Tibetans in Dharamsala to 'All the followers of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso',
"It is also a well-known fact that due to a slight disagreement on views with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, you had banned portraits of His Holiness in your business-oriented Dharma centers. This insane and demeanous (sic) act had caused disgrace to the Tibetans as a whole and is no better than the savageous acts of the Red Chinese. We, the six million Tibetans, solemnly denounce these ill-acts."
From Tibetan Community, Kathmandu, Nepal,
"We feel called upon ourselves to let you know of certain facts about him so that his impudent ravings do not lead astray well-meaning followers of the path….Your "guru" has the misguided audacity to challenge the omniscience of the Compassionate One to the utter disgust of us all."
In a 1996 response to Gyatso's letter referred to above, a Tibetan wrote,
"I suspect that this may have been instigated by the Chinese communists as his accusations of H.H. the Dalai Lama are so baseless, convoluted and depraved...Kalzang Gyatso praises the spirit, Dolgyal, with such exaggeration, trying to make him the powerful guardian of the Gelugpa doctrine, with such falsification that there is no truth whatsoever. He has caused a schism by claiming that His Holiness restricts and suppresses the Gelugpa doctrine...If one is blind, everything that appears in front is only darkness...it is the responsibility of all knowledgeable lay and ordained individuals of the snow-land of Tibet to strongly refute, with the three methods of reason, scripture and instruction, the one that hurts Buddhism in general and the Gelugpa school in particular with his evil conduct and distorted views. Having distinguished between bragrant flowers and poisonous grass, we should defeat this propounder of perversity."
'All lies' according to Gyatso and his sycophantic foot soldiers.
(In 2008, Gyatso's attacks on The Dalai Lama and other esteemed Tibetan Lamas intensified with web sites, web blogs, intimidation of NKT's critics and media-saavy protests.)
Two years after Gyatso's letters from Sera Monastery, Gyatso's attempted to defend his purported Geshe degree (published by NKT's Secretary in 1998).
“In Tibet before he joined Sera-je Monastery near Lhasa, Geshe Kelsang studied on the Geshe training program for many years in his local monastery of Jampaling. He then took two examinations at the great monastic university of Tashi Lhunpo, one for memorization of texts, the second being the actual examination. After the second examination he was awarded a degree from that monastery, and from that time on the other monks and local people called him Geshe Kelsang.
Later, he continued with the Geshe training programme in Sera-je Monastery until he left for India in 1959, where he alternately studied and engaged in meditation retreats. One day he received a letter from Sera-je Monastery in south India, encouraging him to attend a Geshe offering ceremony and to take an examination in order to receive a certificate. In 1973 he went to Sera Monastery and made an extensive offering at the Geshe offering ceremony to a large assembly of monks from both Sera-je and Sera-mey monasteries, in Sera Tsogchen Prayer Hall. He also made the traditional offerings to Sera-je Monastery. On that occasion the monks of his class offered him a ‘katag’, or ceremonial scarf, and gifts in the traditional way. If he was not considered a Geshe then what was the point of inviting him to participate in this ceremony?
At that time he declined to take the examination, which was a new system that had been recently introduced. He later explained that this was because he did not think that receiving a piece of paper was important."
With such delusional logic we could all grant ourselves doctorates.
Editor's Note:
Gyatso insists that the many reports that he is a fake Geshe are lies (Gyatso uses the 'lie' charge often against the Dalai Lama, other Tibetan Lamas, other Buddhists and the media):
“My true situation is that in Tibet I studied Geshe training for many years in my local monastery called Jampa Ling and Tashi Lhunpo university and I passed two examinations. One examination was in memorization and the other was the actual examination. Soon after that, people would publicly call me “Geshe”.
Later in Tibet I joined Sera Je monastery and I studied Geshe training further. In India I mainly emphasized retreat for meditation purposes. When I was living on a high mountain called Dalhousie I received a letter from Sera Je monastery. The letter encouraged me to go to Sera for an examination. Because I had heard that the method or system for examinations was newly created, I did not accept this new system.
However, in 1973 I did my Geshe Ceremony in Sera Je monastery, making extensive offerings to thousands of monks; and I received a special traditional khatag (white scarf) indicating that I am a Geshe.
Generally for anyone to become a real Geshe it is not necessary that the Dalai Lamas recognize them as a Geshe. Before the Dalai Lamas, so many pure and real Geshes appeared such as Geshe Potowa, Geshe Jayulwa, Geshe Langri Tangpa, Geshe Sharawa, Geshe Chekawa and so forth. These Kadampa Geshes have no connection with the Dalai Lama. I have no connection with the Dalai Lama but I still believe that I am a Geshe.
Please give a copy of this information to people if they request it. Thank you.”
On one point, Gyatso may be correct. Before the Dalai Lamas (the first Dalai Lama was a student of Tsongkhapa (1357-1419); the current Dalai Lama is the 14th), there were Geshes without recognition by a Dalai Lama. Because Gyatso despises the six hundred year lineage of Dalai Lamas, he bases his (fake) Geshe degree on pre-Dalai Lama history.
The Geshe degree is a academic-like degree, analogous to a doctorate in Buddhist theology.
Apparently, Gyatso has never been awarded the degree per se, e.g., he holds no diploma. The basis for his Geshe title is that he believes that he is a Geshe. Hopefully, he doesn't start believing that he can fly or is the President or Prime Minister. Gyatso's reliance on the Dalai Lama is notable.
Normally, Gyatso claims that the Dalai Lama is an evil liar. In this instance, Gyatso says that the Geshe degree is not based on recognition by the Dalai Lama but since the Dalai Lama called him a Geshe in a book forward that this is support for Gyatso holding the Geshe degree.
Interestingly, one of Gyatso's books was dedicated to the Dalai Lama in its first printing but in later printings, this dedication was removed. Obviously, when Gyatso likes what you are saying he will use it, when he doesn't he will call you a liar (this is the tactic widely used by NKT Internet bloggers as well).
Once again, readers should decide for themselves the credibility of Gyatso and NKT.
As for a friend of ours we call 'Doc', we pray he does not try performing surguries on patients, or a friend we call 'Captain', we pray he does not take control of an oil tanker or an airliner.
(Gyatso refers to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso)
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http://www.newkadampatruth.org/smear-geshe-kelsang-is-a-self-styled-geshe#kadampa
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Potowa is reconginsed as a Geshe although he was not conferred with Lharmpa Degree. Mastery of Dharma understanding cannot be measured by any degree or certificate. There are prodigy who graduated from doctorate at early age. There are lineage masters who got instant enlightenment upon thrown with torma. These lamas have been practicing in previous lives to manifest in unusual speed in understanding or learning. Maybe it is best that one should have an interview to find out more.
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Potowa is reconginsed as a Geshe although he was not conferred with Lharmpa Degree. Mastery of Dharma understanding cannot be measured by any degree or certificate. There are prodigy who graduated from doctorate at early age. There are lineage masters who got instant enlightenment upon thrown with torma. These lamas have been practicing in previous lives to manifest in unusual speed in understanding or learning. Maybe it is best that one should have an interview to find out more.
I agree with you and have no debate. What you wrote and the examples you give are for people who have knowledge of Dharma, Potawa, etc. For those who don't, it would help to explain and research more.
I don't have any doubts with Ven. Geshe Kelsang at all. I admire him very much in fact.
tk
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Potowa is reconginsed as a Geshe although he was not conferred with Lharmpa Degree. Mastery of Dharma understanding cannot be measured by any degree or certificate. There are prodigy who graduated from doctorate at early age. There are lineage masters who got instant enlightenment upon thrown with torma. These lamas have been practicing in previous lives to manifest in unusual speed in understanding or learning. Maybe it is best that one should have an interview to find out more.
I agree with you and have no debate. What you wrote and the examples you give are for people who have knowledge of Dharma, Potawa, etc. For those who don't, it would help to explain and research more.
I don't have any doubts with Ven. Geshe Kelsang at all. I admire him very much in fact.
tk
i second to that as I have been enjoying reading up His books before I met my Lama.
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A degree is an achievement for practitioners along the path. However it is not a measure of one's enlightened state of mind.
There are so many masters acclaimed as realized or enlightened without degrees.China's famous 6th Patriarch Hui Neng was an illiterate.
Who cares, as long as what they write benefit people , consistent with Dharma and had withstood the test of time.
I am sure many respectable institution of learning will be happy to award Geshe-la a degree on the strength of the many wonderful dharma books he had published which had transformed many people's lives for the better. I don't think people's respect for him is dependent on whether he has a title or not although it is interesting to know the history for the sake of getting the records right.
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I have met a number of Geshes, Lharampa Geshes included.
The qualification is no guarantee of ability to teach, nor even of fitness as a spiritual guide.
There are many Lamas who are not ordained. How is it logical to say that GKG is not a Lama becuase he is not a Geshe?
Neither does a Tantric Master need to be ordained as a monk, and GKG received transmission form the same great masters as HHDL. He may have received empowerments from HHDL simply by being a participant in a mass ritual, like tens of thousands of others.
In practical terms, therefore, GKG would gain no useful advantage from his Geshe status, so why would he lie?
Buddhism survived pretty well long before the Geshe programme was started, and other Tibetan schools do not seem to regard it as essential.
There was even a guy called Shakyamuni who was not a Geshe either.
In short, why focus on that issue at all ?
Maybe it is a sad and illogical attempt to disqualify and discredit him as a great spiritual leader.
The West has many Geshes. It may be prudent to ask if the remarkable growth and significance of the NKT points not only to the good qualities of the teacher, but also those of his Protector, Dorje Shugden.
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Geshe Kelsang is a Geshe.
In the colophon to Geshe Kelsang's long life prayer written by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche himself (available from Tharpa Publications free of charge), it says:
"This brief prayer for the long life of the Tsang-pa Geshe, Kelsang Gyatso, of Sera-Je Monastery, who is endowed with great learning and immaculate pure conduct, was composed by Yongdzin Trijang Dorjechang at the request of the community at Manjushri Centre, England."
In the foreword to Geshe Kelsang’s book Meaningful to Behold, Venerable Trijang Rinpoche says:
The excellent expounder, the great Spiritual Master Kelsang Gyatso, who studied myriad Buddhist scriptures at the famous Je College of the great monastic university of Sera Tegchen Ling, practised the meaning of the teachings he received, and became a wise, serious and realized Teacher.
Geshe Kelsang says:
“My true situation is that in Tibet I studied Geshe training for many years in my local monastery called Jampa Ling and Tashi Lhunpo university and I passed two examinations. One examination was in memorization and the other was the actual examination. Soon after that, people would publicly call me “Geshe”.
Later in Tibet I joined Sera Je monastery and I studied Geshe training further. In India I mainly emphasized retreat for meditation purposes. When I was living on a high mountain called Dalhousie I received a letter from Sera Je monastery. The letter encouraged me to go to Sera for an examination. Because I had heard that the method or system for examinations was newly created, I did not accept this new system.
However, in 1973 I did my Geshe Ceremony in Sera Je monastery, making extensive offerings to thousands of monks; and I received a special traditional khatag (white scarf) indicating that I am a Geshe.
Generally for anyone to become a real Geshe it is not necessary that the Dalai Lamas recognize them as a Geshe. Before the Dalai Lamas, so many pure and real Geshes appeared such as Geshe Potowa, Geshe Jayulwa, Geshe Langri Tangpa, Geshe Sharawa, Geshe Chekawa and so forth. These Kadampa Geshes have no connection with the Dalai Lama. I have no connection with the Dalai Lama but I still believe that I am a Geshe.
Please give a copy of this information to people if they request it. Thank you.”
Geshe Kelsang's qualities are extolled in the prefaces of some of his books by high Lamas, including Venerable Yongdzin Ling Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche, who were the lineage holders of the Gelugpa tradition.
In the foreword to Geshe Kelsang's book, Clear Light of Bliss, Yongdzin Ling Rinpoche says:
This excellent commentary on the joyous Mahamudra
Derived from churning the essence of the ocean of Tantric scriptures
That arose from the heart of this most precious Spiritual Guide
Is published with a pure wish to benefit migrators.
In the prayer he composed "for the long life of the Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso", Trijang Rinpoche says:
You who are skilled in the wisdom that unties the sealed knots
Of the profound meaning of the Sutras and Tantras of the Fourth Deliverer of this fortunate aeon,
Who possess an abundance of good qualities like a thousand-petalled lotus,
O peerless, great Spiritual Guide, may you live for a very long time.
The holy Dharma, a treasury of jewels that is difficult to find for many aeons,
Is borne forth on the chariot of your excellent, superior intention;
O Protector who destroy the samsaric miseries of vast numbers of disciples,
Great Knowledge Hero arisen from an ocean (of wisdom), may you live for a very long time.
In his foreword to Geshe Kelsang's Buddhism in the Tibetan Tradition, published by Routledge and Kegan Paul in 1984, even the 14th Dalai Lama addressed Geshe Kelsang Gyatso by his correct title.
"Very often people who are interested in studying Tibetan Buddhism are dissuaded from doing so because they cannot always find books that are written in a way that they can easily follow... I am therefore happy that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has attempted to present the basic teachings of Lord Buddha in a manner that people can relate to and put them into practice in their daily lives. I would like to thank the translator and editors for their efforts." H.H. The Dalai Lama (signed and sealed).
See also the refutation of the smear that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was expelled from his monastery.
This is taken from the www.newkadampatruth.org site, well worth a visit if you have not already seen it.
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The certification thing of course is not a big deal. There are plenty of "certified" geshes nowadays, it's not nearly as rigorous as before in Tibet. But it is important to recognize that Geshe Kalsang did actually study the classic scriptures and obtained a level of recognition in comprehending them. So what he is transmitting is built on a solid foundation, because these including very traditional subjects like Chandrakirti's commentary on Nagarjunas' works. Giving teachings on these subjects without studying in a traditional manner is very problematic as some erroneous views may get begin to be propagated. I certainly hope every modern day teacher giving teachings on subjects like has actually struggled and relied on a teacher to gain an internal comprehension of the material.
CERTIFICATION DOES NOT MAKE YOU QUALIFIED. BUT GADEN, SERA AND DREPUNG HAVE A SET STUDY AND PROGRAM FOR 600 YEARS. Those who go thru the program are presented this important certificate and gives confidence to many people. It's like getting Phd in Psychology from Harvard as oppose to being treated by someone who has studied Psychology and deems himself fit.
Agains, the example above is not pervasive.
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It should be obvious that Geshe Kelsang is a Rinpoche!
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Liberated Mahayanna Buddhism from Dictators by Founding the Kadampa on the Principles on the Bill of Rights!
That makes Him My Hero!
A Rinpoche? He himself and his whole group are against the whole Rinpoche/tulku thing. Unless you mean Rinpoche as he is precious. If that's the case all sentient beings are Rinpoches also.
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Whether Geshe Kelsang is a Geshe or a Rinpoche or not, it really doesn't matter. I would rather look at the results of what he has achieved. All the books that he has written that have touched the lives of many and the Dharma centers he has created around the world that have benefited so many are simply remarkable.
It is like mother Teresa, who is just a simple nun, without any particular title,but look at her work, so many people have benefited from just herself alone. It is incredible. I adore and admire mother Teresa.
I would choose to look at all the good qualitues that Geshe Kelsang has versus judging him on whether his Geshe title is real of fake, have said that, there is no harm of knowing the truth, but that doesn't mean that I would look at him differently, the impact and benefit of his Dharma work speak for itself.
Triesa
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Yes, there are no doubt about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's qualifications after reading some of his amazing books. However, I don't deny that he does have a lot of disgruntled students which is....dare I say it? A little reminiscent of the Dalai Lama with regards to Dorje Shugden. I think this is an important point because all Lamas have that due to samaya and different levels of perception.
Of course, many Shugden practitioners would claim not to be students of the Dalai Lama but if it wasn't for his ban, all of us would be fawning over him and calling him our Guru or the all-omniscient Chenrezig. What an alternate universe that would be....Perhaps, not as many people would have become Shugden practitioners anyway and this website probably wouldn't have existed as well. So strange how a ban can mobilise so much support and attention for this obscure but beneficial Tibetan deity. Well, the Dalai Lama could just renounce the ban but I don't think he is too concerned about his name and fame because if he was, he would do it in a better and a more logical way. Sorry, I digress.
Big Uncle
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So strange how a ban can mobilise so much support and attention for this obscure but beneficial Tibetan deity. Well, the Dalai Lama could just renounce the ban but I don't think he is too concerned about his name and fame because if he was, he would do it in a better and a more logical way. Sorry, I digress.
Big Uncle
This is a good point Big Uncle.
The several claims that the dalai lama is doing this merely for name and gain and power doesn’t really make sense to me – if he really was after that, then wouldn’t it be “easier” to achieve this by just “going along” with what everyone wanted and said was good? This is not just some obscure deity after all, but a practice that just about every Gelugpa practitioner and sangha were doing.
Why, even after all the protests (which doesn’t look very good at all for him), court cases, media coverage, smear campaigns against him, is he still so adamant about this ban? Why not just be the world’s nobel peace winner again and just call a truce with this whole issue?
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Both Big Uncle & Honeydakini have raised interesting points.
I had not thought about how much damage HHDL is actually doing to his reputation and image by enforcing the ban on DS in the manner that he has done so. In fact, come to think of it, this whole issue is destroying everything that he has achieved over the years. Because now, there are more people questioning where is the Nobel Peace Prize Winner in HHDL? Some people are viewing HHDL as more of a tyrant and dictator because of this issue and this is certainly something that would not be of an advantage, if HHDL is wanting to clamour for more power and popularity.
What's more - the division and dissension are happening both within the Tibetan community and outside of it.
So, the question is WHY would HHDL take on such high risks, full knowing what it will do to him?
This is something we should all contemplate on.
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The certification thing of course is not a big deal. There are plenty of "certified" geshes nowadays, it's not nearly as rigorous as before in Tibet.
Why would it be not as rigorous? It gives the impression that the great monasteries of Gaden, Sera, and Drepung are not upholding its standards..?
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Titles and certifications are useful and helpful when we are trying to check for validation on someone's actual capabilities and qualifications for a certain job.
For a doctor - obviously, there needs to be a medical cert to qualify him to be a doctor and no one, I dare say, would allow a non-certified doctor to perform surgery on him or her. Even with a certified doctor, we would still investigate and make our own research into which doctor is good for what. So, we ask questions and interview ex-patients or existing patients of the doctor. Hence, only then we can decide which doctor we would consult for whatever we need.
No one would go blindly to see a doctor and without prior investigation. Most likely, we would heed our friends and families' recommendations on which doctor to consult for specific ailments.
This is especially more important for a newbie or someone who is interested to finding out more and is just learning.
It is always good to discuss and learn more so that we can clarify mis-information and mis-interpretation of facts, and misunderstandings. However, the manner in which we do all of the above must reflect our Dharma practice. Otherwise, how can we ever say that we have improved at all, or have even benefited from the Dharma? Especially, when our behaviour after learning Dharma is no different than our behaviour before the Dharma?
I am sure there are always better ways to present facts, points of views and conduct discussions without putting down anyone. I am certain there are always better ways to show how your Dharma practice has made you into a better person. And if we can't even do it in here, then we can't definitely do it anywhere else.
Hence, a newbie will not even be impressed with Dharma, if the way we attack one another is a sample of what Dharma brings or teaches.
There is always a better way. I am sure that is why we learn the Dharma in the first place.
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Both Big Uncle & Honeydakini have raised interesting points.
I had not thought about how much damage HHDL is actually doing to his reputation and image by enforcing the ban on DS in the manner that he has done so. In fact, come to think of it, this whole issue is destroying everything that he has achieved over the years. Because now, there are more people questioning where is the Nobel Peace Prize Winner in HHDL? Some people are viewing HHDL as more of a tyrant and dictator because of this issue and this is certainly something that would not be of an advantage, if HHDL is wanting to clamour for more power and popularity.
What's more - the division and dissension are happening both within the Tibetan community and outside of it.
So, the question is WHY would HHDL take on such high risks, full knowing what it will do to him?
This is something we should all contemplate on.
If the Dalai Lama does not repudiate Dorje Shugden, The other three Tibetan Schools will not be content to be represented by him. Tibetan society will fall apart, or change into something unrecognizable. This political lama thought he could extinguish the lineage of his teacher and through samaya, politics and signatuire compaign, he thought everyone would just roll over.
now he is learning what I imagine must be a painful lesson.
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I believe what Dharmapal wrote here is pretty authoritative. The forewords by H.H. KyabjeTrijang and H.H Yongzin Ling to GKG's books says it all.
Whether there is a formal recognition or other red tapes associated with such an award I think is not so important in the context of GKG's knowledge and scholastic abilities. - at least for those who have read and benefitted from his writings.
I also agree w Samayatree's view to ensure there is no abuse or falsehood.
I think GKG, has been around long enough to overcome any doubts as to his qualities. In the end , its up to the public whether the issue of proper certification/ degree is serious enough to have a negative influence on those following him or those who intend to do so.
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. "If that's the case all sentient beings are Rinpoches also." As you say and as Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche stated. It matters not your station or status. If you are not Practicing the Dharma. You are not anything...........
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Returning to the topic, I read or watched HHDL explain that when he took part in the debating examination for his own Geshe degree he would have lost if his tutor not declared the debate over.
I'm guessing that whilst it would be unthinkable for a Dalai lama to fail such a test, some deemed it unthinkable for the pariah Geshe Kelsang Gyatso to be considered worthy of the title.
The problem with those who deny it to him is that having referred to him as a Geshe, they then had to strip him of it, making their case that he never achieved it look ridiculous.
And as I wrote earlier, a great Lama, Spiritual Guide and Tantric Master does not need the title of Geshe at all.
It's a bit like seeking to destroy the reputation of the space shuttle commander by saying that he failed his car driving test.
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I posted this thread with this question:
Is Geshe Kelsang a Geshe as awarded the Degree from Sera, Drepung or Gaden?
I am not questioning if he is qualified.
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Geshe Kelsang is a Geshe.
In the colophon to Geshe Kelsang's long life prayer written by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche himself (available from Tharpa Publications free of charge), it says:
"This brief prayer for the long life of the Tsang-pa Geshe, Kelsang Gyatso, of Sera-Je Monastery, who is endowed with great learning and immaculate pure conduct, was composed by Yongdzin Trijang Dorjechang at the request of the community at Manjushri Centre, England."
In the foreword to Geshe Kelsang’s book Meaningful to Behold, Venerable Trijang Rinpoche says:
The excellent expounder, the great Spiritual Master Kelsang Gyatso, who studied myriad Buddhist scriptures at the famous Je College of the great monastic university of Sera Tegchen Ling, practised the meaning of the teachings he received, and became a wise, serious and realized Teacher.
Geshe Kelsang says:
“My true situation is that in Tibet I studied Geshe training for many years in my local monastery called Jampa Ling and Tashi Lhunpo university and I passed two examinations. One examination was in memorization and the other was the actual examination. Soon after that, people would publicly call me “Geshe”.
Later in Tibet I joined Sera Je monastery and I studied Geshe training further. In India I mainly emphasized retreat for meditation purposes. When I was living on a high mountain called Dalhousie I received a letter from Sera Je monastery. The letter encouraged me to go to Sera for an examination. Because I had heard that the method or system for examinations was newly created, I did not accept this new system.
However, in 1973 I did my Geshe Ceremony in Sera Je monastery, making extensive offerings to thousands of monks; and I received a special traditional khatag (white scarf) indicating that I am a Geshe.
Generally for anyone to become a real Geshe it is not necessary that the Dalai Lamas recognize them as a Geshe. Before the Dalai Lamas, so many pure and real Geshes appeared such as Geshe Potowa, Geshe Jayulwa, Geshe Langri Tangpa, Geshe Sharawa, Geshe Chekawa and so forth. These Kadampa Geshes have no connection with the Dalai Lama. I have no connection with the Dalai Lama but I still believe that I am a Geshe.
Please give a copy of this information to people if they request it. Thank you.”
Geshe Kelsang's qualities are extolled in the prefaces of some of his books by high Lamas, including Venerable Yongdzin Ling Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche, who were the lineage holders of the Gelugpa tradition.
In the foreword to Geshe Kelsang's book, Clear Light of Bliss, Yongdzin Ling Rinpoche says:
This excellent commentary on the joyous Mahamudra
Derived from churning the essence of the ocean of Tantric scriptures
That arose from the heart of this most precious Spiritual Guide
Is published with a pure wish to benefit migrators.
In the prayer he composed "for the long life of the Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso", Trijang Rinpoche says:
You who are skilled in the wisdom that unties the sealed knots
Of the profound meaning of the Sutras and Tantras of the Fourth Deliverer of this fortunate aeon,
Who possess an abundance of good qualities like a thousand-petalled lotus,
O peerless, great Spiritual Guide, may you live for a very long time.
The holy Dharma, a treasury of jewels that is difficult to find for many aeons,
Is borne forth on the chariot of your excellent, superior intention;
O Protector who destroy the samsaric miseries of vast numbers of disciples,
Great Knowledge Hero arisen from an ocean (of wisdom), may you live for a very long time.
In his foreword to Geshe Kelsang's Buddhism in the Tibetan Tradition, published by Routledge and Kegan Paul in 1984, even the 14th Dalai Lama addressed Geshe Kelsang Gyatso by his correct title.
"Very often people who are interested in studying Tibetan Buddhism are dissuaded from doing so because they cannot always find books that are written in a way that they can easily follow... I am therefore happy that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has attempted to present the basic teachings of Lord Buddha in a manner that people can relate to and put them into practice in their daily lives. I would like to thank the translator and editors for their efforts." H.H. The Dalai Lama (signed and sealed).
See also the refutation of the smear that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was expelled from his monastery.
This is taken from the www.newkadampatruth.org site, well worth a visit if you have not already seen it.
so it appears that several high lamas like HH Ling Rinpoche and HH Trijang Rinpoche recognises GKG as a Geshe.
GKG himself said that "However, in 1973 I did my Geshe Ceremony in Sera Je monastery, making extensive offerings to thousands of monks; and I received a special traditional khatag (white scarf) indicating that I am a Geshe."
I find the above quite ambiguous. Does it mean that because he did the Geshe ceremony, he is a Geshe?
I am not sure of the protocol of Geshe-ship? Does the Dalai Lama have to recognise you as a Geshe in order to be a Geshe?
If one became a Geshe at a monastery and then subsequently excommunicated from that monastery, can one still hold onto the title?
By the way, I don't see this question from Thaimonk as being critical of GKG. I also respect GKG very much but i'm curious about this point, which if cleared up, would let me answer others better too. I personally don't think GKG NEEDS a title of Geshe or Rinpoche or Tulku because he is so very learned and knowledgeable and his results really speak a thousand words. But there are also others who see this issue as very important so it'd be good to know what the situation really is.
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Both Big Uncle & Honeydakini have raised interesting points.
I had not thought about how much damage HHDL is actually doing to his reputation and image by enforcing the ban on DS in the manner that he has done so. In fact, come to think of it, this whole issue is destroying everything that he has achieved over the years. Because now, there are more people questioning where is the Nobel Peace Prize Winner in HHDL? Some people are viewing HHDL as more of a tyrant and dictator because of this issue and this is certainly something that would not be of an advantage, if HHDL is wanting to clamour for more power and popularity.
What's more - the division and dissension are happening both within the Tibetan community and outside of it.
So, the question is WHY would HHDL take on such high risks, full knowing what it will do to him?
This is something we should all contemplate on.
Yes, we know all this. It seems whatever the thread topic is, the same off-topic stuff creeps in. It's a shame, especially on a forum where most members will know quite a lot about the ban, but may know little of the other topics which seem to get derailed here. :(
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Dear Yeshe,
I do not intend to derail any topic of any thread. I was addressing Big Uncle &HD's points in their posts. In any case, let us not digress any more than necessary. It is not worth to repeat. Hence, I shall write better to make myself more clearly understood next time.
Dear Trinley Kalsang, I do not think that TM starting this thread is in any way wrong. In fact, it is thanks to him for raising these issues about GKG. I do not see it as in any bad disparaging. You have taken my quote and put it into another context. What I mean in the quote you have taken out was the way in which members 'speak' to one another in this Forum. As seen in this thread alone. I asked for compassion and civility towards one another in this Forum.
I believe if no one cares to explain then someone who is unaware reading the information out there would be inclined to believe that GKG is not qualified to teach etc. I myself do not know much about GKG, but having started reading and following this thread, I will not be so inclined to believe the 'rubbish' that is written about this great Lama, GKG.
What's more, I would be able to even offer some explanation to those who may not know, if I were to come across such a situation, that is. And I can do this now because of the points raised in this thread. Looking at GKG's achievements, alone is suffice to say that he has done great things.
Then again, we can say the same for HHDL, isn't it?
Hence, in this respect, I believe what TM is asking is sincere and helps in promoting more understanding. In this way, with more knowledge that we have gathered in here, we can also help clarify further to anyone who wishes to know more. How is this a bad thing?
I only wished that we could have less unpleasant remarks made about one another. That was the point of my comments.
I am not siding anyone here. I am sharing my observations from reading what each of you have written over the many different threads. Not just here.
Anyways, I am personally glad that some difficult issues can be addressed and hopefully, it can be discussed in a more positive way that allows answers and clarity to surface. Then others reading will also learn more and not judge as easily.
Thank you all for your kind patience and for taking the time to actually explain, clarify and share.
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I agree with Triesa that whether or not GKG is a Geshe is not of pivotal importance. It seems like too much effort is put into defining titles etc. This is, once again, so much like the bickering of the secular world where holding a Phd. Certificate from which school, what job title is which company defines a person’s value.
In the spiritual sense, I believe that what is more important is the contribution that GKG has made towards turning the wheel of Dharma to benefit sentient beings. And in this matter, GKG has done a great “job”.
I have been blessed to read some of GKG’s books and I found them so easy to understand. Simply put: I love them and I believe that there are many individuals out there who developed clearer understanding about Dharma after reading these materials.
Another matter that made an impression is how similar these writing are to other thread in relation to H.H the 14th Dalai Lama and his ban on Dorje Shugden. Only this time, the name is different, i.e. 1) instead of Dalai Lama this and Dalai Lama that, it is GKG this and GKG that and 2) instead of the removal of Dorje Shugden and Trijang Rinpoce images, it is the removal of Dalai Lama images here. It is kind of like a replay of the same drama with different characters.
Perhaps all great individuals who stand against the flow will have to face such controversy and criticism. Perhaps it is because they are great that they will find the compassion and wisdom to forgive our lack of gratitude. Maybe all these events are intertwined for us to practice Dharma.
If we can view these great masters who have given us so much with understanding and acceptance (I dare not say compassion and wisdom yet), we will be able to practice the same virtues with those around us. With that as a stepping-stone, our lives and those around us will get happier and more peaceful. And I believe that this is the purpose of Dharma.
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Well said, Shugden Protect! Well said!
I agree with Triesa that whether or not GKG is a Geshe is not of pivotal importance. It seems like too much effort is put into defining titles etc. This is, once again, so much like the bickering of the secular world where holding a Phd. Certificate from which school, what job title is which company defines a person’s value.
In the spiritual sense, I believe that what is more important is the contribution that GKG has made towards turning the wheel of Dharma to benefit sentient beings. And in this matter, GKG has done a great “job”.
I have been blessed to read some of GKG’s books and I found them so easy to understand. Simply put: I love them and I believe that there are many individuals out there who developed clearer understanding about Dharma after reading these materials.
Another matter that made an impression is how similar these writing are to other thread in relation to H.H the 14th Dalai Lama and his ban on Dorje Shugden. Only this time, the name is different, i.e. 1) instead of Dalai Lama this and Dalai Lama that, it is GKG this and GKG that and 2) instead of the removal of Dorje Shugden and Trijang Rinpoce images, it is the removal of Dalai Lama images here. It is kind of like a replay of the same drama with different characters.
Perhaps all great individuals who stand against the flow will have to face such controversy and criticism. Perhaps it is because they are great that they will find the compassion and wisdom to forgive our lack of gratitude. Maybe all these events are intertwined for us to practice Dharma.
If we can view these great masters who have given us so much with understanding and acceptance (I dare not say compassion and wisdom yet), we will be able to practice the same virtues with those around us. With that as a stepping-stone, our lives and those around us will get happier and more peaceful. And I believe that this is the purpose of Dharma.
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Whatever damage the ban has done to the reputation of the Dalai lama is now forgotten or minimal.
He is still travelling non-stop, the govt leaders that have been meeting up with him are still meeting with him, the Indian Govt has done nothing re the court case. Dalai Lama is very powerful. He is still talking openly against Shugden at most public gatherings. He outlived the protests and court cases. The thing we can do is to make our Dorje Shugden practices very strong by:
1. Having more centres that practice and promote Shugden
2. Making sure shar gaden and serpom 'make' it ( we must advert them, facebook, tweet them and financially support them)
3. Supporting financially all those who support Serpom and Shar Gaden
4. Raising the status of our Dorje Shugden Tulkus whose names are already well known (they are proof positive practicing shugden does not lead you to lower realms since they are back). Tulkus are very important. The continuation of their names throughout history makes impact.
5. Bringing in more people who know nothing of the controversy onto Shugden's practice-easier to convince-hence brochures
6. Making websites/forums like this a 'hive' of activity where everyone can log on for information and resources
As the Dalai Lama has just a few years left (sorry), the Shugden movement can and will become bigger as many advices by Dalai Lama will be eventually forgotten. 5th Dalai Lama closing down Kagyupa Monasteries is barely remembered today.
After the Dalai Lama has passed, all the famous Shugden Tulkus can teach, and spread the practice without any interferences or minimal. No other Gelug lama can take the place of Dalai Lama as secular/spiritual leader of all Tibetans. No non-Gelug Lama can do so either. If any non-Gelug Lamas after Dalai Lama start talking against Dorje Shugden, he can be finger-pointed as sectarian.
Hence these days you had Sakya Trizin 'condemning' Shugden. Who listens? You had Dudjom condemning, who listened? Dilgo Kyentse nor Karmapa says anything against Dorje Shugden. Karmapa previous incarnation did not criticize nor both of the current karmapas. Dilgo Kyentse never spoke anything at least publicly against Dorje Shugden. I must say, Dilgo Kyentse whom I met, was an extraordinary individual with tremendous energy of compassion you can feel when you are in his presence. Drigung Kyabgon and Drukchen Rinpoches are silent on the Shugden issue. Kalu Rinpoche as far as I know mentioned nothing publicly. After the Dalai lama is gone, no one will listen to Gaden Tripa as no one listens to them now anyway. Dalai Lama never gave a chance for the Gaden Tripas to play their role in full. But the great Tulkus of the Gelug lineage are either admired or despised around the world because of the Dalai Lama. But either way, the Gelug Tulkus are known. Their reputations can be turned from 'bad' to good after the passing of Dalai Lama.
Constant rude writings and hate filled comments re the Dalai Lama will make this website a turn off the thousands who know nothing of what the Dalai Lama has done. When we write, we cannot write FOR OURSELVES. We have to write clearly, level headed, and even handedly to make our writings more 'neutral' to new people who come to this forum. Our writings must portray a even non-biased information for the reader to contemplate and think about when they go away. When it is one sided and filled with hate, it automatically makes people not want to read what the 'fanatics' have written. You may love Shugden, promote Shugden and sing the praises of Shugden as much as you want WITHOUT RUDE/HATE COMMENTS ABOUT THE DALAI LAMA.
Hence I like the Mission Statement of this website. Everyone presents this information without EXCLUDING THE OTHER SIDE completely. The 'other side' may be wrong, but in debate, the purpose is not to make them wrong by rudeness, but by wisdom, knowledge, information, facts and let them think it out. It is to win your 'opponent' by skill of your knowledge and presentation.
We must make platforms like this website accessible and readable to the greater many that visit for knowledge and information so they can on their own free time, digest. Therefore even handed information without unpleasantness is very important. This platform is not just for us. There are many more who are involved than just us. We can change their minds, their lives and their views for the positive with our words.
TK
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Thank you very much, TK for taking the time and writing this very valuable sharing.
I especially appreciate your words that " we cannot write for ourselves". That is very true because there are so many others who would read everything in this forum and we should be concerned about how their minds would be like after reading everything.
Thank you for putting everything so eloquently.
The reason I come into this Forum is to also learn and dispel my own doubts or confusion on subjects that are beyond my reach, so to speak. And in learning more, I can even explain to others more. That makes me feel more useful than my being at my 9 to 5 job, to be honest. Because if I have clarified something for someone in their mind about DS or anything spiritual, then I feel that I have done something truly beneficial that is beyond this lifetime.
Have a good day, everyone.
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GKG himself said that "However, in 1973 I did my Geshe Ceremony in Sera Je monastery, making extensive offerings to thousands of monks; and I received a special traditional khatag (white scarf) indicating that I am a Geshe."
I find the above quite ambiguous. Does it mean that because he did the Geshe ceremony, he is a Geshe?
From what I understand, making Geshe offerings at the monastery does not mean you are a Geshe. Anyone can make Geshe offerings throughout the course of their study - just because you have made the offering, it does not mean that you are a Geshe. There are even some monks who make this offering but don't go on to study for or become Geshes. This is not part of the validation process.
Also, whenever anyone makes any offerings to the monastery, they receive in turn a khata as a blessing from the sangha. So it isn't that clear what this means by a getting a khata to indicate he is a Geshe.
I don't mean this as any disrespect to GKG - But just sharing some general information that I have learnt; can be useful for us to know as a future reference.
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GKG himself said that "However, in 1973 I did my Geshe Ceremony in Sera Je monastery, making extensive offerings to thousands of monks; and I received a special traditional khatag (white scarf) indicating that I am a Geshe."
I find the above quite ambiguous. Does it mean that because he did the Geshe ceremony, he is a Geshe?
From what I understand, making Geshe offerings at the monastery does not mean you are a Geshe. Anyone can make Geshe offerings throughout the course of their study - just because you have made the offering, it does not mean that you are a Geshe. There are even some monks who make this offering but don't go on to study for or become Geshes. This is not part of the validation process.
Also, whenever anyone makes any offerings to the monastery, they receive in turn a khata as a blessing from the sangha. So it isn't that clear what this means by a getting a khata to indicate he is a Geshe.
I don't mean this as any disrespect to GKG - But just sharing some general information that I have learnt; can be useful for us to know as a future reference.
So does this mean that GKG has not been awarded a Geshe title properly by Sera, Drepung or Gaden as asked by thaimonk who started this thread? Is there anyone out there who have knowledge of how a Geshe title is being awarded in the Monestary? I am just thinking, for example, how many years they have to study, and how many examinations or debates they have to go through before a Geshe title is awarded. In other words, the whole process involved.
Triesa.
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So does this mean that GKG has not been awarded a Geshe title properly by Sera, Drepung or Gaden as asked by thaimonk who started this thread? Is there anyone out there who have knowledge of how a Geshe title is being awarded in the Monestary? I am just thinking, for example, how many years they have to study, and how many examinations or debates they have to go through before a Geshe title is awarded. In other words, the whole process involved.
Triesa.
Yes that's correct he's not really a Geshe but it doesn't mean he hasn't studied the same texts as a real Geshe so his knowledge might be just as good or even better. It's probably a bit deceptive to use the title but there are many levels of Geshe, even honorary ones so all in all it might not matter. More unfortunate is the fact that he was expelled from his monastery. The following letter provides an interesting insight into monastic politics although I don't know if it's an accurate reflection of GKG's character.
http://info-buddhismus.de/200514.pdf
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Quoted by Triesa : So does this mean that GKG has not been awarded a Geshe title properly by Sera, Drepung or Gaden as asked by thaimonk who started this thread?
Just like colleges/universities all over the world, there are records of students who have passed their respective examinations and I am sure that Sera, Drepung and Gaden also have their own records. If anyone who is only interested to know if GKG has this Geshe degree should contact them for confirmation.
But then again, has not GKG's students benefitted from his teachings?
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regarding of the title Is Geshe Kelsang a Geshe?
- isn't a geshe earned its title from a monastery through all tests and exams?? If so, aren't they a Geshe?
As for what i've read, Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is a fully accomplished meditation master and internationally renowned teacher of Buddhism.
From the age of eight Geshe-la studied extensively in the great monastic universities of Tibet and earned the title ‘Geshe’, which literally means ‘spiritual friend’. Under the guidance of his Spiritual Guide, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, he then spent the next eighteen years in meditation retreats in the Himalayas.
I agree with what shugdenprotect said
whether or not GKG is a Geshe is not of pivotal importance. It seems like too much effort is put into defining titles etc. This is, once again, so much like the bickering of the secular world where holding a Phd. Certificate from which school, what job title is which company defines a person’s value.
In the spiritual sense, I believe that what is more important is the contribution that GKG has made towards turning the wheel of Dharma to benefit sentient beings. And in this matter, GKG has done a great “job”.
most important is what they have done in spreading dharma and how many people been benefited vs his title. Dharma is in our heart not in titles, don't you agree?
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Thank you TK for your valuable and logic contribution to this forum. You certainly remind us where we should stand. You bring us back on track and focus what we have to do. Your advice is definitely of a huge benefit to many of us.
Whether GKG is a geshe is not an issue any more. A Geshe is merely a certification of his education in this samsaric world. What is more important is his realization and attainment in his mind stream. If we are not on the level to judge a higher attained being we can derive his qualities by using logic and contemplating on his beneficial activities - he has benefitted vast number of people around the world. His books are of excellent clarity, and precision have benefitted many. Trustworthy authoritarian and most eminent masters in the world have vouched on GTG’s qualities and his attainments. HENCE, is there still doubt on Geshe Kelsang Gaytso’s qualification???
As mentioned by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, the meaning of the teachings GTG received is practised and became a wise, serious and realized Teacher. Even Yongdzin Ling Rinpoche said GTG’s book entitled “Clear Light of Bliss” is a commentary “derived from churning the essence of the ocean of Tantric scriptures” with a pure wish to benefit sentient beings.
What else?... GTG is an accomplished sutric and tantric master as indicated in the prayer Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche composed "for the long life of the Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso":
“You who are skilled in the wisdom that unties the sealed knots
Of the profound meaning of the Sutras and Tantras of the Fourth Deliverer of this fortunate aeon,
Who possess an abundance of good qualities like a thousand-petalled lotus,
O peerless, great Spiritual Guide, may you live for a very long time.
The holy Dharma, a treasury of jewels that is difficult to find for many aeons,
Is borne forth on the chariot of your excellent, superior intention;
O Protector who destroy the samsaric miseries of vast numbers of disciples,
Great Knowledge Hero arisen from an ocean (of wisdom), may you live for a very long time.”
Well, GTG is in fact a overly qualified Geshe. ;D
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Is GKG a Geshe or not?
The answer to this question tells us very little about his qualities as a teacher, or even his realizations.
What I prefer to look at is:
1. the lineage in which he takes place is by any standard outstanding
-Trijang Rinpoche, HH The 14th Dalai Lama, Pabonkha Rinpoche, Dagpo Rinpoche, all the way to Je Rinpoche, Atisha, and eventually to Buddha Shakyamuni! WOW!
2. The quality of the translation of teachings that he has published and that have benefitted so many is truly extraordinary. Truly remarkable, Geshe degree or not.
3. His skillful means to bring the dharma to places where it was non-existent or weak. I don't know many people who would give so much in order to reach out to so many. When I see what is sometimes said of him, I think he must be very brave and his motivation can only be pure and sincere (otherwise why would he do all this?)
4. The growth of KNT is extraordinary. Would Dorje Shugden, THE protector of the Gelug teachings be so helpful to a Dharma center that does not have the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa at his heart?
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not my teacher, but if circumstances would have made that I was to be his student, I would feel extremely fortunate.
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I like what Hope Rainbow said.
In fact, the great late Lama Yeshe was never a Geshe and yet we can see how much he has achieved. In fact, Lama Yeshe always made fun about how he did not want to get a Geshe degree and be called Geshe Yeshe. I read that from one of his bio.
It is true that a title may not necessarily make you a great teacher, but it may get you the respect because you have indeed worked very hard for that qualification and have earned that title. But whether you are good at the role can only be measured by the results of your actual effort/work. And in terms of spirituality, I guess, we usually measure the success of a Guru by the behaviour of his students and the size/no. of their centers. This is of course, a very generalised yardstick.
I think to really answer Thai Monk's answer if Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is really a Geshe - I think if all his monasteries have publicly denounced him and stripped him of all his titles and his titles are from there, then, technically, GKG may not have the titles anymore. However, it does not change the fact that GKG under-studied all the great Gurus and have extensive knowledge and experience. The removal of his title from whoever, can never remove his wisdom and compassion.
I guess, what I am trying to say here is organizations, companies and monasteries can remove anything external from us - i.e. titles, jobs, positions and even power - but they cannot remove the years of experience, knowledge and our innate qualifications.
No one can remove the dharma that is already transmitted to us from our own Gurus. That stays embedded within us, and grows when we enrich ourselves further.
Which is clearly seen in the case of GKG and Lucy James...they both remain teacher and disciples. That in itself speaks volumes. NKT is one of the largest dharma organizations in the West. That also speaks volumes.
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Is GKG a Geshe or not?
The answer to this question tells us very little about his qualities as a teacher, or even his realizations.
What I prefer to look at is:
1. the lineage in which he takes place is by any standard outstanding
-Trijang Rinpoche, HH The 14th Dalai Lama, Pabonkha Rinpoche, Dagpo Rinpoche, all the way to Je Rinpoche, Atisha, and eventually to Buddha Shakyamuni! WOW!
2. The quality of the translation of teachings that he has published and that have benefitted so many is truly extraordinary. Truly remarkable, Geshe degree or not.
3. His skillful means to bring the dharma to places where it was non-existent or weak. I don't know many people who would give so much in order to reach out to so many. When I see what is sometimes said of him, I think he must be very brave and his motivation can only be pure and sincere (otherwise why would he do all this?)
4. The growth of KNT is extraordinary. Would Dorje Shugden, THE protector of the Gelug teachings be so helpful to a Dharma center that does not have the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa at his heart?
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not my teacher, but if circumstances would have made that I was to be his student, I would feel extremely fortunate.
I absolutely agree with HR. Titles can be removed but the innate quality of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso cannot be removed. This is a fact. The innate quality and qualification of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso remains and no one absoutely no one whosoever can refute this or take this away from him. :)
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As I recall, GKG once mentioned that there was the old Tibetan way, and the new Diaspora way, in these monasteries. So that would mean, that the current generation of geshes - current to GKG that is - are gesheized in either of these two ways. The actual content of the studies and so forth remained the same, but there were some differences as to the "gesheization ceremonies". Why this change happened, I do not know. Maybe the diaspora monasteries wanted to solidify themselves, or maybe they loaned some Indian University gadgetries to get some kind of universal acceptance... who knows.
Nevertheless, many "old timers" did, so I have been told (reliable source, I am, thereby), pass the new system of gesheization. Especially those, who were residing in the West. Why spend money for air-tickets and new monetarywise costume-plays, as these were just recent additions, in Diaspora?
So, by GKG:s own admission, he is a Geshe by the old system, but never took the new diasporic gesheization. He therefore both is and is not a Geshe, depending on what academic costumizing system you follow.
I might, of course, remember this all wrong. So take this with a grain of salt. Do not take this as a Tulku Arising -type of post.
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Thank you, ZP for sharing in a way that promotes learning and understanding.
I sincerely appreciate the tone and manner in which you have posted about GKG.
When there are no "emotional overtones" in the words/speech - I can hear the real message loud and clear.
Though you maintain that you could be wrong, that is already helpful enough to caution readers to think for themselves.
Unlike some who write with the deliberate intention of imposing their points of views unto others.
In any case, I never believed that we can force anyone to think like us or feel the same way as us, it is for them to discover what everything means to them and make that connection. Every mind is different and unique. Until something clicks and that light bulb goes off in their minds, they will not see the light. Hence, may be this is why the spiritual path is a journey. We go onto a journey of self discovery as well as discovering how we relate to all around us, and vice versa.
If it was so easy to make everyone think the same and feel the same, and everyone digests information in the same way and can accept how those information are delivered, then we all don't need 'personalized and customised' information delivery methods. If this were true, our Gurus would have a much easier job. Then, all the great Gurus in the world would automatically produce excellent students like a factory assembly line, within a specified time frame.
As it is not so, then we have to learn to be patient and compassionate with one another, as our Guru has always been with all of us.
Here's to more Geshes - both titled or un-titled! At the v=very least, they are making a real difference in the world!
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GKG himself said that "However, in 1973 I did my Geshe Ceremony in Sera Je monastery, making extensive offerings to thousands of monks; and I received a special traditional khatag (white scarf) indicating that I am a Geshe."
I find the above quite ambiguous. Does it mean that because he did the Geshe ceremony, he is a Geshe?
From what I understand, making Geshe offerings at the monastery does not mean you are a Geshe. Anyone can make Geshe offerings throughout the course of their study - just because you have made the offering, it does not mean that you are a Geshe. There are even some monks who make this offering but don't go on to study for or become Geshes. This is not part of the validation process.
Also, whenever anyone makes any offerings to the monastery, they receive in turn a khata as a blessing from the sangha. So it isn't that clear what this means by a getting a khata to indicate he is a Geshe.
I don't mean this as any disrespect to GKG - But just sharing some general information that I have learnt; can be useful for us to know as a future reference.
So does this mean that GKG has not been awarded a Geshe title properly by Sera, Drepung or Gaden as asked by thaimonk who started this thread? Is there anyone out there who have knowledge of how a Geshe title is being awarded in the Monestary? I am just thinking, for example, how many years they have to study, and how many examinations or debates they have to go through before a Geshe title is awarded. In other words, the whole process involved.
Triesa.
Whether Geshe Kelsang is a geshe or not, it does not really matter. There are so many of his books that have brought tremendous benefits and also touched the lives of others. And with the many centers all over the world, Geshe Kelsang has created a big imprint on people’s lives by bringing dharma to them.
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So after much debate, it seems Geshe Kelsang has never recieved the Geshe Degree from his monastery even way before the Shugden conflict.
He didn't recieve the Geshe Degree in Tibet nor in India.
He never finished his final exams.
He has the knowledge of a Geshe but not the ACTUAL certification?
So by right, he should not be called a Geshe?
You may have studied in Harvard to the point of your Phd exams and your just as good as another Phd holder, but if you don't go for your exams and leave, whether it's under the new system or old, can you be called a Phd holder or addressed as Dr or so and so is a Phd?
Again, I am not addressing Geshe-la's character, knowledge or Qualifications as a spiritual master.
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So after much debate, it seems Geshe Kelsang has never recieved the Geshe Degree from his monastery even way before the Shugden conflict.
He didn't recieve the Geshe Degree in Tibet nor in India.
He never finished his final exams.
He has the knowledge of a Geshe but not the ACTUAL certification?
So by right, he should not be called a Geshe?
You may have studied in Harvard to the point of your Phd exams and your just as good as another Phd holder, but if you don't go for your exams and leave, whether it's under the new system or old, can you be called a Phd holder or addressed as Dr or so and so is a Phd?
Again, I am not addressing Geshe-la's character, knowledge or Qualifications as a spiritual master.
I think you've had a good spread of views already, but seem to be seeking more.
The reality is that GKG was called a Geshe by HHDL and others and praised as such. So in terms of their 'reality' he is a Geshe. As for the exam, I have read that quite a few Geshes never completed their formal final exams, but they also are called Geshe. GKG has no need of the title as he could very easily call himself Lama instead, as others have done. As head of a non-Tibetan oprganisation he could also call himself 'Pope Kadam' if he fancied. LOL :)
To use your analogy, imagine if you studied for the PhD, then at the point of examination, Harvard decided to change the exam completely. Meanwhile you had already secured a good future without that final qualification, so you moved on.
Now you remember that GKG has consistently been critical of the changes the Gelugpa have made to their practices. They changed the Geshe examination system, and characteristically GKG rebelled and refused to take the changed Geshe examination. The Gelugpa have continued to move further away from their own tradition through the Shugden ban.
At one time, when I taught martial arts classes I had not yet achieved the level at which I could be called 'Sensei' yet students referred to me in that way, however often I corrected them. In the same way, if GKG's contemporaries and masters called him Geshe, what difference would it make if they arrived at that same conclusion by judging his debating or memorising skills in another situation.
Of course, we could always introduce the elephant in the room here. LOL :)
Some assert that the wrong person was chosen to be the current Dalai Lama when the tests were conducted on children to identify the rightful heir to that role. If this was proven to be true, do you imagine anyone would stop calling the incumbent 'Dalai Lama'? He is Dalai Lama because others regard him as such, and have faith in him in that role.
It's exactly the same for GKG - he is regarded as a Geshe and everyone from the Dalai Lama down has expressed faith in him in that role.
So whatever the answer to your question may be, it really doesn't matter! ;)
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So whatever the answer to your question may be, it really doesn't matter! ;)
If it doesn't matter than everyone from Sera, Drepung and Gaden who has studied may call themselves a Geshe and forget the exams. If he was awarded the Geshe before the exams changed, then he is still a Geshe. But if he has never taken the exam before or after the examination systems changed, then he is not titled a Geshe?
A doctor of 60 years ago would not be able to pass the examinations of a exam for today's doctor. But he is still a doctor as he passed the exam of 60 years ago.
:)
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So whatever the answer to your question may be, it really doesn't matter! ;)
If it doesn't matter than everyone from Sera, Drepung and Gaden who has studied may call themselves a Geshe and forget the exams. If he was awarded the Geshe before the exams changed, then he is still a Geshe. But if he has never taken the exam before or after the examination systems changed, then he is not titled a Geshe?
A doctor of 60 years ago would not be able to pass the examinations of a exam for today's doctor. But he is still a doctor as he passed the exam of 60 years ago.
:)
Ok. I'll take the bait one last time. ;)
If a student is absent for an examination, they are often granted a degree on the basis of their attainments so far and the opinion of the tutors.
On the same basis, if someone is recognised by HHDL and his root guru as a Geshe and an excellent Spiritual Guide, then I'll take their word for it, as they know the level of his attainments.
Or was the Dalai Lama incapable of that judgement, and Trijang Rinpoche also ? Other Geshes also received the title without taking the final exam, such as Lama Thubten Yeshe, founder of the FPMT, or so I have read.
Look at it from the other end of the telescope:
Since it is obviously the case that someone called a Geshe in the Gelugpa tradition need not to have taken all the exams but can be identified as such by his gurus, then it is obvious also that the answer to your question is logically 'Yes, GKG is a Geshe'.
Those who wish to claim that GKG is not a Geshe are therefore also saying that HHDL, Chenrezig, is capable of being wrong on a really basic issue, and that Trijang Rinpoche is also wrong. This would be unthinkable to the Tibetans who view HHDL as some sort of God King.
In the UK we can call ourselves by any religious title we like, simply by changing our name. To do so in order to deceive would be very wrong, but the case of GKG is very well documented and any hint at deception easily refuted, as it has been many times.
For all the above reasons, to me it does not matter at all. I can't of course speak for those who may be desperate to smear GKG, and cling to any view which feeds their anger - which is very sad.
To the NKT in moving forwards, this issue is long dead, but I do wonder why it keeps being dredged up. If it could somehow be proven that he was not a Geshe, as there is no longer a connection with HHDL or the Gelugpas under his rule, it does not matter.
The NKT has flourished worldwide, bringing the Dharma to many thousands of students, many of whom can attest to the efficacy of the teachings, so why would it trouble anyone what title was given to the head in addition to the crucial one of Spiritual Director of the NKT, which he has now passed on to his successor?
For all the above reasons, I say again - it does not matter.
Well, as a personal view, interesting as it is to dig up old smears which may also be slanders, I for one am happy that GKG is a Geshe.
We would spend our time more profitably, perhaps, in examining the current actions of those who also hold the Geshe title, a status which has made no difference in their support of violent oppression. For their actions and their breaches of samaya, perhaps we should consider whether they should immediately disrobe, let alone fuss about their Geshe degree. ;)
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Whether it matters or not, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is definitely a Geshe.
He passed the exams and got the qualification. He has explained this himself in teachings, also once saying that he did not go on to get the Geshe Lharampa degree awarded to the greatest scholars, but that he got the regular Geshe degree.
The reason the debate has arisen about whether or not he is a Geshe is because of the politically motivated letter expelling him from his monastery many years after he had left it for opposing the Dalai Lama on his ban on Dorje Shugden practice. It is a crazy piece of propaganda and should not be taken seriously by anyone with an ounce of sense.
See what it says on Wikipedia (as well as its sources):
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was born on Dharmachakra Day (the 4th day of the 6th month of the Tibetan lunar calendar) 1931 in Yangcho Tang, eastern Tibet. His lay name was Lobsang Chuponpa. His ordination name "Kelsang Gyatso" means "Ocean of Good Fortune". His mother made great sacrifices to enable her son to attend the Ngamring Jampa Ling Monastery because he showed interest and aptitude from an early age. He joined the monastery when he was 8 years old and later described memorizing the Medicine Buddha Sutra:
In my first monastery, Jampa Ling, this was the principal practice. The Tibetan translation of the Sutra is about fifty pages long. I memorized this together with some additional prayers, because this was one of the commitments for being able to stay in the monastery.[6]
(In November 1986, Geshe Kelsang oversaw the rebuilding of Ngamring Jampa Ling Monastery after its destruction, and it was fully restored and reopened by September 1988.[7])
Later Geshe Kelsang studied for 15 years at Sera Monastery near Lhasa,[8][9] one of the great Gelug monastic universities of Tibet. According to Cozort, Kelsang Gyatso is "a highly trained geshe."[10] At Sera Je, he successfully completed the full Geshe studies of five large philosophical texts. After passing two examinations at Tashilhunpo Monastery in Shigatse, he received his Geshe degree.[11] He was a member of the Tsangpa Khangtsen, one of the fifteen houses at Sera Je monastery. Contemporaries at Sera Je included Geshe Lhundub Sopa, Geshe Rabten, and Lama Thubten Yeshe.
Waterhouse cites three reasons, traditional in Tibetan Buddhism, why Geshe Kelsang is authorized to be a Spiritual Guide, saying "The combination of experience, lineage and knowledge makes Geshe Kelsang ideal as a teacher. He has the credibility of a genuine Tibetan teacher and the vision to instigate an organization (the New Kadampa Tradition) to present that teaching to westerners."[12][13]
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Whether it matters or not, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is definitely a Geshe.
He passed the exams and got the qualification. He has explained this himself in teachings, also once saying that he did not go on to get the Geshe Lharampa degree awarded to the greatest scholars, but that he got the regular Geshe degree. ....
See what it says on Wikipedia (as well as its sources):
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was born on Dharmachakra Day (the 4th day of the 6th month of the Tibetan lunar calendar) 1931 in Yangcho Tang, eastern Tibet. His lay name was Lobsang Chuponpa. His ordination name "Kelsang Gyatso" means "Ocean of Good Fortune". His mother made great sacrifices to enable her son to attend the Ngamring Jampa Ling Monastery because he showed interest and aptitude from an early age. He joined the monastery when he was 8 years old and later described memorizing the Medicine Buddha Sutra:
......
Later Geshe Kelsang studied for 15 years at Sera Monastery near Lhasa,[8][9] one of the great Gelug monastic universities of Tibet. According to Cozort, Kelsang Gyatso is "a highly trained geshe."[10] At Sera Je, he successfully completed the full Geshe studies of five large philosophical texts. After passing two examinations at Tashilhunpo Monastery in Shigatse, he received his Geshe degree.[11] He was a member of the Tsangpa Khangtsen, one of the fifteen houses at Sera Je monastery. Contemporaries at Sera Je included Geshe Lhundub Sopa, Geshe Rabten, and Lama Thubten Yeshe.
Whether Kelsang Gyatso is a qualified teacher is out of question. I heard that during the days in India, while other young tulkus/geshe candidate went for prilimage/relax during break, Kelsang Gyatso just like doing meditation. He has his own style and be respected by his folks.
But it worth to make it clear whether Kelsang Gyatso is a Geshe from the 3 monastery's view-point.
My understanding is that after leaving the monastery, tulkus seldom refer themselves as 'Geshe XX ', but XX rinpoche. For non-tulkus, it seems be tradition that if he got the geshe degree, in official environment, we call him Geshe XX(say Geshe Rabten), if not, we call him Lama YY(say Lama Yeshe), this is for respect of the 3 monastery system and we are using strict definition of 'geshe' here(ie. those who spent years in the monastery and went through the whole curriculum, normally 20 years study for non-tulku). But in non-official environment, we can call any lama 'Geshe' as far as he spent some years in the monastery for study(ie. using loose definition of 'spiritual friend' here)
From above quote, brief biography of Kelsang Gyatso is:
- born on Dharmachakra Day 1931
- joined the Ngamring Jampa Ling monastery when he was 8 years old
- studied for 15 years at Sera Monastery near Lhasa
- After passing two examinations at Tashilhunpo Monastery in Shigatse, he received his Geshe degree
It is quite strange to me why Kelsang Gyatso studied in Sera Je but 'got passing two examinations at Tashilhunpo Monastery in Shigatse'. Let's check the 'shortest path' assuming Kelsang Gyatso didn't spend any time in his home monastery Ngamring Jampa Ling : 1931+ 8+15= 1954. So if Kelsang Gyatso did spend 3 years in his home monastery(which is quite usual), after his 15 years of study in Sera Je, it was 1957!
This timeline analysis provide some hint on what might happen:
Kelsang Gyatso has completed most of his academic training in Sera Je of Lhasa(15 years), but due to the turmoil in Lhasa in 1957, his study was terminated, as for non-tulku it should be total 20 years study on the geshe program. Kelsang Gyatso might not fled to India immediately (which might be reason he 'passed two examinations at Tashilhunpo Monastery in Shigatse'), but anyway he did it after-wards. So it was early 1960s when Kelsang Gyatso arrived India, and by that time the exile community was in a mess, the 3 monasteries was not re-built yet(they were re-built in early 70s). By reading biography of other senior lamas, it looks that during 60s-early 70s, for purpose of maintaining the lineage, although monks in exile still studied hard, but the environment was not as like Lhasa, so there was a lot of exemption as compared with the Lhasa program, anyway some monks were granted with 'Geshe degree' after completion of the program, and they were required to do a 'graduation offering' to other monks according to tradition. Kelsang Gyatso should be one of those granted with this title and be accepted by the sangha as a geshe (in strict definition according to 3 monasteries) during this period.
So Kelsang Gyatso is a geshe, nothing wrong to call him 'Geshe Kelsang Gyatso' in official environment. He completed the 'program' during 60s and be granted with this title by then(the graduation offering to monks is the 'signature', not any certificate, who had the $/spare time to print a 'certificate' during this period, when they even don't know where to go for settling down..?). It was a special time special program, which not like the 3 monastery system as re-established in India now.
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He is qualified to be a Geshe, but since he never took the final exams, he is offcially not a Geshe by monastic standards and recognition?
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He is qualified to be a Geshe, but since he never took the final exams, he is offcially not a Geshe by monastic standards and recognition?
I have reported this post as you are just trolling. You've had plenty of evidence and discussion and have ignored some very clear explanations which prove that by the relevant monastic standards he is a Geshe. The fact that you then keep repeating this question is just trolling.
Of course I don't know your intention, but since you ignore all comment in favour of GKG I conclude you are just dragging out a prolonged smear in this thread, in the passive aggressive style. You also phrase your question in the negative 'he is officially not' which gives away your intention - guilty until proven innocent.
Has it occurred to ask for evidence to prove that GKG is not a Geshe? I doubt it. Trolling. :(
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There are many great people in this world who have no official titles or certificates granted to them by establishments. An example would be the infamous Mr. Bill Gates who does not even hold a university degree. However, he is revered as one of the most successful individual in the secular world for his achievements. If we can offer someone this generosity of acceptance in the secular world, why can’t we do so in the spiritual world? GKG has served us all his life by spreading the Dharma effectively and efficiently.
I also contemplate on the purpose of the “Geshe” title. Is it:
1) Just a feather we put on our hat? Or
2) A “tool” to be used to let Dharma grow in places where there is no Dharma and clarify any misunderstanding of the Dharma?
I have strong belief that the purpose of the “Geshe” title of for the latter. So, I believe and accept with humility and gratitude that GKG is a Geshe.
With regards to the technicalities of the Geshe-ization, as Wang pointed out, it was during the most chaotic period of Tibetan Buddhism history. Perhaps GKG and several other Geshes did not have the opportunity to go through the traditional ceremony although they have the knowledge of a Geshe (as recognized by Trijang Rinpoche and HHDL and reflected in his sound teachings). However, this should not mean that they are not Geshes.
Therefore, let’s not expose our kind Guru to anymore such unnecessary scrutiny and focus on absorbing his precious teachings.
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Geshe Kelsang is not a Geshe, he is an 'Extraordinary Super Geshe'! :)
No Lama or Buddhist teacher in modern times has achieved anything like what Geshe-la has achieved. That is spreading pure Buddhadharma throughout the whole world. Just in my medium sized centre alone we have 10 branch classes teaching meditation classes in the surrounding areas. From all the centres worldwide there must be over 1,000 branch classes all around the world. If you think each class may get an average of ten people, that means just in one week alone 10,000 people are listening to basic dharma teachings alone. This is truly incredible!
The only reason GKG gets bad publicity is because he stood up to the Dalai Lama when no other Lama dared! He put his very own life at risk and since 1996 when the Dalai Lama introduced the ban he has had 24/7 protections from body guards to protect him because of the frequent death threats he receives.
There is an on-going smear campaign against GKG that is for sure! But truth is on his side! It usually takes time but eventually the truth always comes out in the end!
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Inspiring Stuff, Ranger! I can picture you rejoicing as you sit in front of your campfire among the tumbleweeds....
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No other lama in the history of modern times has achieved what Dalai Lama has achieved. GKG does not hold a candle to what Dalai Lama has achieved. Nobel peace laureate, Stateman, guru to Hundreds of thousands of people, politicians, stars, scientists, thinkers and ordinary citizens. He is able to stand up and preserve all the monasteries in exile for 50 years. Single handedly preserve Tibetan culture from extinction within the exile community. When he speaks, halls of 40-50,000 will be packed wherever he goes. No other lama in modern history can command the audience as Dalai Lama. Dalai Lama is one of the most recognizable figures in the world today within the Buddhist world and secular. GKG is great but not to the level of the Dalai Lama.
Too bad for the ban. Dalai lama lost about 20% of his following because of that, but undeniably the greatest well known teacher of this modern era.
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No other lama in the history of modern times has achieved what Dalai Lama has achieved. GKG does not hold a candle to what Dalai Lama has achieved. Nobel peace laureate, Stateman, guru to Hundreds of thousands of people, politicians, stars, scientists, thinkers and ordinary citizens. He is able to stand up and preserve all the monasteries in exile for 50 years. Single handedly preserve Tibetan culture from extinction within the exile community. When he speaks, halls of 40-50,000 will be packed wherever he goes. No other lama in modern history can command the audience as Dalai Lama. Dalai Lama is one of the most recognizable figures in the world today within the Buddhist world and secular. GKG is great but not to the level of the Dalai Lama.
Too bad for the ban. Dalai lama lost about 20% of his following because of that, but undeniably the greatest well known teacher of this modern era.
The Dalai has nearly used political power to destroy his own Root Guru's lineage. If you really claim he is a the greatest lama of our day, it seems you have no wish for the Vajrayana in general or the tradition of the Ganden Ear-Whispered lineage in particular to reamain in this world.
He only gets a huge audience because many people, not knowing his true wished and actions, have been led through superstition to believe he is a god. Gladly, soon the whole world will see that he is not who they were hoodwinked into believing he is.
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Hi,
there is a blog from a german montk currently studying at Sera. http://serakhedrub.blogspot.com/2009/09/zuruck-in-sera-und-einige-bemerkungen.html (http://serakhedrub.blogspot.com/2009/09/zuruck-in-sera-und-einige-bemerkungen.html)
He is telling the following about the Geshe program (freely translated):I have to give some background information. Monks who do not like studying then sign for voluntary work like administration work, working int he monastery's restaurant or shops. ..... If the classmates of these monks (who continued studying) get their Geshe title then those monks who spent their time doing the admin, restaurant,... jobs also get their Geshe title even if they spent most of their time to work for the monastery
:o :o
This is the original text in German copied out of the blog:Ich glaube dazu muss ich noch einige Hintergrundinformationen geben. Manche Mönche merken im Laufe des Studiums, dass ihnen das viele Studieren eigentlich nicht liegt und melden sich dann vermehrt freiwillig für praktische Arbeiten wie das Betreuen der Klosterverwaltung, der klostereigenen Restaurants oder Kaufläden. Diese sind übrigens nicht profitorientiert sondern sollen nur den Mönchen das Nötigste verfügbar machen, damit sie nicht für jede neue Zahnpasta das Kloster verlassen müssen. Erreicht der eigene Jahrgang, bei welchem man eingeschrieben ist, den Abschluss des Studiums, erhält man selbst ebenfalls den Geshe-Titel, selbst wenn die meiste Zeit damit verbracht wurde für das Kloster zu arbeiten.
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Hi,
there is a blog from a german montk currently studying at Sera. [url]http://serakhedrub.blogspot.com/2009/09/zuruck-in-sera-und-einige-bemerkungen.html[/url] ([url]http://serakhedrub.blogspot.com/2009/09/zuruck-in-sera-und-einige-bemerkungen.html[/url])
He is telling the following about the Geshe program (freely translated):I have to give some background information. Monks who do not like studying then sign for voluntary work like administration work, working int he monastery's restaurant or shops. ..... If the classmates of these monks (who continued studying) get their Geshe title then those monks who spent their time doing the admin, restaurant,... jobs also get their Geshe title even if they spent most of their time to work for the monastery
:o :o
This is the original text in German copied out of the blog:Ich glaube dazu muss ich noch einige Hintergrundinformationen geben. Manche Mönche merken im Laufe des Studiums, dass ihnen das viele Studieren eigentlich nicht liegt und melden sich dann vermehrt freiwillig für praktische Arbeiten wie das Betreuen der Klosterverwaltung, der klostereigenen Restaurants oder Kaufläden. Diese sind übrigens nicht profitorientiert sondern sollen nur den Mönchen das Nötigste verfügbar machen, damit sie nicht für jede neue Zahnpasta das Kloster verlassen müssen. Erreicht der eigene Jahrgang, bei welchem man eingeschrieben ist, den Abschluss des Studiums, erhält man selbst ebenfalls den Geshe-Titel, selbst wenn die meiste Zeit damit verbracht wurde für das Kloster zu arbeiten.
So Geshe Kelsang got a degree without exams and because his classmates passed, he passed along with them??
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Hi thaimonk,
I think that this just shows that the original question of this thread is without any importance.
Godi
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Hi thaimonk,
I think that this just shows that the original question of this thread is without any importance.
Godi
Any thread has importance to somebody even if it does not to you. :)
So I respect all threads because I respect everyone who wishes to learn anything on a forum whether it is important to me or not.
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No other lama in the history of modern times has achieved what Dalai Lama has achieved. GKG does not hold a candle to what Dalai Lama has achieved. Nobel peace laureate, Stateman, guru to Hundreds of thousands of people, politicians, stars, scientists, thinkers and ordinary citizens. He is able to stand up and preserve all the monasteries in exile for 50 years. Single handedly preserve Tibetan culture from extinction within the exile community. When he speaks, halls of 40-50,000 will be packed wherever he goes. No other lama in modern history can command the audience as Dalai Lama. Dalai Lama is one of the most recognizable figures in the world today within the Buddhist world and secular. GKG is great but not to the level of the Dalai Lama.
Too bad for the ban. Dalai lama lost about 20% of his following because of that, but undeniably the greatest well known teacher of this modern era.
I think you are very jealous of GKG and New Kadampa's success. In England the top football teams in the premiership are disliked when they win honours. Are you jealous thai monk? Maybe you should try rejoicing instead of trying to smear GKG, all you do by smearing him is make him more powerful! Because when people read his books and look at his centre's flourishing around the world, your words just seem ridiculous!
The Dalai Lama is the head of the Tibetan Government in Exile, no one has ever voted against him in the Kashag since the beginning. He speaks up for democracy and human rights around the world telling everyone to respect other religious traditions. Yet his parliament mixes politics and religion, is no where near democratic. They are in a cold war with China. He harms his own people and has destroyed his own guru's lineage and spreads a mish mash of impure Dharma! He is lier and hypocrite and we can prove it here on DS.com
Remember in 1996, when he told the tibetan people that DS was the cause of Tibet not getting independence? Do you remember when he told the tibetan people, DS was harming his life? Do you remember when he told the tibetans that DS is spirit and DS practice is causing Buddhadharma to degenerate? Even though DL can't make even one single decision without first seeking advice from the state oracle Nechung! It's seems the DL is very confused and talks a whole lot of Mumbo Jumbo? But you still have faith in him, why is this?
Since then he changed his reasons for the ban because he new such mumbo jumbo wouldn't wash with press! How convenient!
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No other lama in the history of modern times has achieved what Dalai Lama has achieved. GKG does not hold a candle to what Dalai Lama has achieved. Nobel peace laureate, Stateman, guru to Hundreds of thousands of people, politicians, stars, scientists, thinkers and ordinary citizens. He is able to stand up and preserve all the monasteries in exile for 50 years. Single handedly preserve Tibetan culture from extinction within the exile community. When he speaks, halls of 40-50,000 will be packed wherever he goes. No other lama in modern history can command the audience as Dalai Lama. Dalai Lama is one of the most recognizable figures in the world today within the Buddhist world and secular. GKG is great but not to the level of the Dalai Lama.
Too bad for the ban. Dalai lama lost about 20% of his following because of that, but undeniably the greatest well known teacher of this modern era.
I think you are very jealous of GKG and New Kadampa's success. In England the top football teams in the premiership are disliked when they win honours. Are you jealous thai monk? Maybe you should try rejoicing instead of trying to smear GKG, all you do by smearing him is make him more powerful! Because when people read his books and look at his centre's flourishing around the world, your words just seem ridiculous!
No personal attacks on other forum goers. Keep all debates and statements toward the subject matter. Be polite at all times if you wish to be involved on this forum.
Mana
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He is qualified to be a Geshe, but since he never took the final exams, he is offcially not a Geshe by monastic standards and recognition?
I have reported this post as you are just trolling. You've had plenty of evidence and discussion and have ignored some very clear explanations which prove that by the relevant monastic standards he is a Geshe. The fact that you then keep repeating this question is just trolling.
Of course I don't know your intention, but since you ignore all comment in favour of GKG I conclude you are just dragging out a prolonged smear in this thread, in the passive aggressive style. You also phrase your question in the negative 'he is officially not' which gives away your intention - guilty until proven innocent.
Has it occurred to ask for evidence to prove that GKG is not a Geshe? I doubt it. Trolling. :(
NO personal accusations. Keep the debate on the subject matter at all times.
Mana
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You don't want to hear anything regarding GKG, then don't talk about the Dalai lama. This is not a NKT forum where people can just go on and on about hate campaigns about the Dalai Lama. If you wish to talk about the Dalai Lama, well, then debate, questions and inquiries may be made by any lama. Keep it consistent. We've been reading three years worth of insults towards the Dalai Lama. So when GKG is in this forum, why not discuss.
So stop trolling re the Dalai Lama. I like him. You don't. So what? You like GKG, others don't. So what?
We either talk about anyone or no one.
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I have no doubt about Dalai Lama and GKG. Both Dalai Lama and GKG are great lamas. If we think it through both of the two Lamas have great motivation and without doubt are qualified masters. Their only motivation is to promote Lord Shugden – their motivation is bodhicitta. As I see it, the Earth is a stage and Dalai Lama is the playwright and main actor while GKG is the supporting actor to promote and introduce Lord Shugden to the whole wide world so Lord Dorje Shugden may take on a big role massively in this era. What else could be the reason for 2 mighty Bodhisattvas to fight one another over a mighty Deity?
Did I side track? Of course not. I merely reiterate both of their qualities. The certification that he is a Geshe is not a criteria or an issue any more.
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He is qualified to be a Geshe, but since he never took the final exams, he is offcially not a Geshe by monastic standards and recognition?
I have reported this post as you are just trolling. You've had plenty of evidence and discussion and have ignored some very clear explanations which prove that by the relevant monastic standards he is a Geshe. The fact that you then keep repeating this question is just trolling.
Of course I don't know your intention, but since you ignore all comment in favour of GKG I conclude you are just dragging out a prolonged smear in this thread, in the passive aggressive style. You also phrase your question in the negative 'he is officially not' which gives away your intention - guilty until proven innocent.
Has it occurred to ask for evidence to prove that GKG is not a Geshe? I doubt it. Trolling. :(
NO personal accusations. Keep the debate on the subject matter at all times.
Mana
Mana
So repeated statements to the effect that a respected guru is not qualified is OK? Is that not a personal attack?
I stated a fact, not an accusation. The repeated nature of these attacks on GKG in this thread fits perfectly the definition of trolling, which is:
''Trolling is the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet, generally on message boards. ''
Exactly the same point about this member was made in the second post of the Lucy James thread. Just mischief making which serves no other purpose than malice.
Then we have the anger-laden reply from thaimonk is to the effect that as others insult HHDL, he feels free to insult GKG. And also accuses the NKT of hate campaigns, without Mods taking any action at all.
So now we have established clearly the motivation and the action. I described what 'thaimonk' has now owned up to. In effect, he is upset that HHDL is being criticised so thinks repeated accusations in several threads about GKG and the NKT is a suitable response from a Buddhist.
I hope people who are writing such posts do not have vows - insulting a Bhikkhu is a disgrace. Insulting the practices of other Buddhists (NKT) is also a downfall and a disgrace.
Terms of Service:
''We promote and value HARMONY. Please do not post anything negative about any lamas, sects, deities or anyone. ''
If this is what the forum ends up looking like, allowing threads intended to spread insults and smears, I think it would be better shut down again. I also have vows and will not be supporting a forum which permits this kind of content to be published against Sangha. Goodbye.
maitri
Yeshe
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You don't want to hear anything regarding GKG, then don't talk about the Dalai lama. This is not a NKT forum where people can just go on and on about hate campaigns about the Dalai Lama. If you wish to talk about the Dalai Lama, well, then debate, questions and inquiries may be made by any lama. Keep it consistent. We've been reading three years worth of insults towards the Dalai Lama. So when GKG is in this forum, why not discuss.
So stop trolling re the Dalai Lama. I like him. You don't. So what? You like GKG, others don't. So what?
We either talk about anyone or no one.
Um...if you mean me I haven't posted anything here against HHDL. In analogy I stated that some people assert that he is not the true Dalai Lama but that this would make no difference to his followers, and that in the same way, if some decide that GKG is not a Geshe it makes no difference.
I have not stated whether I like or dislike either of the Geshes concerned here. Neither did I say I was affiliated to the NKT or the Gelugpa under HHDL. But feel free to invent what you need to feed your anger. I thought this forum was about not taking sides, but maybe you know better.
Anger is always destructive. There seems to be a lot of it about on this forum. It may be good, therefore, to read what people actually write, rather than invent a straw man argument based on what they did NOT say, in order to have a rant.
On a forum abour Dorje Shugden I'd love to know how we could discuss 'no one'. Discussion here relates to 'anyone' but there are basic rules of behaviour, which repeated accusations about a Bhikkhu must surely break.
Your extraordinary accusation against the NKT, that it undertakes hate campaigns, is also attacking the practice of other Buddhists and is a major downfall, not to mention surely a breach of rules here.
Terms of Service:
''We promote and value HARMONY. Please do not post anything negative about any lamas, sects, deities or anyone. ''
I have nothing more to say on this thread, as it seems these repeated angry accusations, ignoring any factual debate and inventing straw men to fight, are to be permitted to run on and on if they emanate from this member, whether it be the NKT or Lucy James or GKG - the agenda is clear.
Very sad.
maitri
Yeshe
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I have no doubt about Dalai Lama and GKG. Both Dalai Lama and GKG are great lamas. If we think it through both of the two Lamas have great motivation and without doubt are qualified masters. Their only motivation is to promote Lord Shugden – their motivation is bodhicitta. As I see it, the Earth is a stage and Dalai Lama is the playwright and main actor while GKG is the supporting actor to promote and introduce Lord Shugden to the whole wide world so Lord Dorje Shugden may take on a big role massively in this era. What else could be the reason for 2 mighty Bodhisattvas to fight one another over a mighty Deity?
Did I side track? Of course not. I merely reiterate both of their qualities. The certification that he is a Geshe is not a criteria or an issue any more.
Very well said. Both of them are great lamas. Their qualities are beyond our comprehension.
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Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is one of the Great Masters who made a stand to steadfastly continue to worship Dorje Shugden and started the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT). His organisation has grown by leaps and bounds and since from the beginning there had been smear campaigns against him to the point of suggesting he is not a Geshe.
How could his teaching attract so many followers and NKT is so huge, if there is no soundness in what he teaches?
Many have contributed their opinions in this article and all I can do as a token of appreciation to great Shugden lamas is to revive this for your viewing.