dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: thaimonk on July 22, 2010, 10:18:41 AM
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What happened to Lucy James? Is what she say on this correct? :( Totally accurate? Any insider explanations to 'enlighten' us?
Please see:
http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html
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Do stop trolling Troll.
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What happened to Lucy James? Is what she say on this correct? :( Totally accurate? Any insider explanations to 'enlighten' us?
Please see:
[url]http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html[/url]
Hi thaimonk
I understanding from the article that Lucy James have been out of the organization for a while and there's
I don't mean to be trolling but this is forum but I would like to know more AND DISCUSS!
thanks
H1N1
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What happened to Lucy James? Is what she say on this correct? :( Totally accurate? Any insider explanations to 'enlighten' us?
Please see:
[url]http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html[/url]
Hello Thaimonk
Is it thai monk or monkey? It's just that you sound more like a monkey than a monk! :)
If i give you a bunch of banana's, will you go away and leave us all in peace?
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What happened to Lucy James? Is what she say on this correct? :( Totally accurate? Any insider explanations to 'enlighten' us?
Please see:
[url]http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html[/url]
Hello Thaimonk
Is it thai monk or monkey? It's just that you sound more like a monkey than a monk! :)
If i give you a bunch of banana's, will you go away and leave us all in peace?
Monsuier Ranger
With respect I request you not to ask Thai monk to leave, he has a right here. I think he is trying to be controversial, so i think someone who knows the answers to his questions should answer him.
cheers
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Hey thaimonk, Why not expound on the Qualities of your Master, Tsem Rinpoche?
Whom, I might add is a fine person doing duty in a distant land.
I do not understand the attacks on GKG, expecially after the admin warned anyone causing trouble will be banned.
You seem to be between the sheets.
Maybe I'll shake the sheets and find out about your agenda?
Hey Tc,
My master is NOT TSEM RINPOCHE! HE IS TOO YOUNG TO BE MY MASTER! He's fine or not is great!
WHY DO YOU GET RUFFLED WITH QUESTIONS ON GKG. WHAT ABOUT THE HUNDREDS OF ATTACKS YOU do on Dalai Lama daily?? How come you can attack Dalai Lama and I can't ask about Geshe Kelsang? The admin hasn't banned you. I have NEVER CRITIZICED YOUR DAILY ATTACKS ON THE DALAI LAMA.
Get over your pain, hurt, rampage against the Dalai Lama, he wronged you as you say, get over it. Move on. How to practice and get anywhere with so much anger inside of you. I wish you the best, I truly do, but let me tell you straightforward and now: I AM NOT ATTACKING GKG. I found the information on the open net and I want to understand more. If anyone has information, clear it and it will help the hundreds of other readers. This forum has nothing to do with GKG (as far as I can see) and if some of his students who are active here, answer those questions, it is neutral grounds. I didn't write what I found on GKG, but it's disturbing because I support GKG and buy hundreds of dollars worth of his books and pass out to friends.
Sorry.
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What happened to Lucy James? Is what she say on this correct? :( Totally accurate? Any insider explanations to 'enlighten' us?
Please see:
[url]http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html[/url]
Hello Thaimonk
Is it thai monk or monkey? It's just that you sound more like a monkey than a monk! :)
If i give you a bunch of banana's, will you go away and leave us all in peace?
Monsuier Ranger
With respect I request you not to ask Thai monk to leave, he has a right here. I think he is trying to be controversial, so i think someone who knows the answers to his questions should answer him.
cheers
Dear CC,
I am not trying to be controversial, but what Lucy wrote is disturbing. I want to understand more because she quotes the secretary from 1998 of NKT. Since a few here are NKT members, you might have insider's news to clear things on a neutral platform. But if your not the exclusive people of NKT who are at the top, I guess you wouldn't. But you still might know something.
thanks. :)
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What happened to Lucy James? Is what she say on this correct? :( Totally accurate? Any insider explanations to 'enlighten' us?
Please see:
[url]http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html[/url]
Hello Thaimonk
Is it thai monk or monkey? It's just that you sound more like a monkey than a monk! :)
If i give you a bunch of banana's, will you go away and leave us all in peace?
Thanks for letting Lucy win here with your snide comments.
Don't buy the bananas, instead use the money to donate to Tenzin Sungrab.
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Gosh,
are we gonna get an answer from these people or just plain mockery and childish bickering?
I think we might need to refer u guys to the complaints department
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=816.0
TM, i am with u as this article re Lucy James is a bit disturbing in my mind an appreciate some clarifications and before anyone else does, i think these two bullies must have pretty much done justice to how Lucy James might have been.
anymore enlightening remarks?
H1N!
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PARTICPANTS IN THIS THREAD
We repeat this forum is an open platform for DISCUSSION, the post below from "loneranger" does in NO way add to the discussion thread. This is not debate, and in know way reflects debate motivation.
Hello Thaimonk
Is it thai monk or monkey? It's just that you sound more like a monkey than a monk! :)
If i give you a bunch of banana's, will you go away and leave us all in peace?
Your username and ip has been recorded and will be monitored.
Thaimonk perhaps you could elaborate on what disturbs you the most about the information you found to give particpants a direction to focus their replies, as right now it sounds like your wanting to know gossip.
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This is interesting.
I actually like that Thai monk is “forcing” to giving a different way of looking at how we look at teachers out there. Sure, every Lama has his faults (or so we perceive) but he also has his fair and good points. I don’t think it is healthy to only keep going on and on about any lama’s negative points.
Sure, the Dalai Lama has been responsible for many actions that we do not agree with. But by the same token, he has also been responsible for many tens of thousands of people joining the Dharma. He is still someone’s teacher – how are we potentially destroying someone’s faith by just always using very strong words against him? “Liar, hypocrite, dictator” etc
I don’t see the recent posts about GKG as a smear campaign – it is a different way to look at how we react to posts about different teachers. Why is it okay to always bang on and on about what the Dalai Lama is doing wrong; but become so edgy when some questions are asked about other teachers? It is has certainly made me think about how I would feel if someone had posted something up about my own teacher – it’s not a nice feeling, I can assure you!
I don’t believe the things that have been said about GKG. Whether or not they are true, I choose instead to look at all the thousands of centres he has around the world and all the thousands of people who are being connected to the lamrim, taking ordination and learning dharma, inspired by his GOOD qualities. Imagine if there was another forum set up where a whole bunch of people just got together and bitched about all the things he did wrong, as a “call for justice” to “simply point out what is not being done right.” Imagine if we all did that within our own centres! Where we think that our guru is not being fair to one or two people in the centre, so we set up a tribunal to question and trial him! This is essentially what we are doing.
If you don’t agree with what is being said about GKG, then think: this is exactly what you have been doing to the Dalai Lama forever now! Why is it fair to have a smear campaign about the Dalai Lama but get antsy when some questions are asked about GKG/NKT? Note that there hasn’t actually been anything bad said against GKG – just information extracted from another site and some general questions looking for clarification about the facts. Nothing near the kind of language used to describe the Dalai Lama.
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Dear Honeydakini,
Very well said indeed!!! Whoever is your teacher must have taught you well. Intercenter harmony and never critiize teachers in other centers. I agree totally that we must always look at the GOOD qualities rather than narrowing our thoughts on only negative things.
Triesa
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What happened to Lucy James? Is what she say on this correct? :( Totally accurate? Any insider explanations to 'enlighten' us?
Please see:
[url]http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html[/url]
The link doesnt seem to be written by Lucy James, rather it is about her. There's a fair bit of stuff written online about this affair. How much of it is true is unknown. The official NKT response to this is:
"However, these types of accusations do point to a larger issue: Neither Lucy or Bjorn have made any complaints about what took place and by all accounts stayed happy and peaceful throughout. They remain loyal and practicing disciples of Geshe Kelsang and the NKT. As long as that’s the case, then what happens between them and their Spiritual Guide is, quite frankly, their business and not ours. No one had the right to put Lucy’s private letter from Geshe Kelsang on the Internet for example; this was not ethical."
As far as I know, whatever happened between Lucy James & NKT, she has not bad-mouthed Geshe-la as far as I can see. She still refers to Geshe-la as her teacher and promotes Kadampa Buddhism on her websites eg http://knol.google.com/k/kadam-lucy-james/kadampa-buddhism/3l61loh9lbw08/4#
That's what I know and if true, then she does live up to what is expected of a student of the Vajrayana.
Her story is being used as a pawn in the frequent online debates that the NKT is constantly faced with. As organisations grow bigger, these problems are bound to crop up. We do live in samsara after all. And some of the principles of Vajrayana such as guru devotion will appear cultish to the general public. So wherever misunderstandings arise, the students should endeavour to clear the name of the teacher in a manner that is befitting.
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What happened to Lucy James? Is what she say on this correct? :( Totally accurate? Any insider explanations to 'enlighten' us?
Please see:
[url]http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html[/url]
As organisations grow bigger, these problems are bound to crop up. We do live in samsara after all. And some of the principles of Vajrayana such as guru devotion will appear cultish to the general public. So wherever misunderstandings arise, the students should endeavour to clear the name of the teacher in a manner that is befitting.
Very well said. Sad to know. But I am gladdened by this post.
tk
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What happened to Lucy James? Is what she say on this correct? :( Totally accurate? Any insider explanations to 'enlighten' us?
Please see:
[url]http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html[/url]
Hello Thaimonk
Is it thai monk or monkey? It's just that you sound more like a monkey than a monk! :)
If i give you a bunch of banana's, will you go away and leave us all in peace?
Monsuier Ranger
With respect I request you not to ask Thai monk to leave, he has a right here. I think he is trying to be controversial, so i think someone who knows the answers to his questions should answer him.
cheers
Dear CC,
I am not trying to be controversial, but what Lucy wrote is disturbing. I want to understand more because she quotes the secretary from 1998 of NKT. Since a few here are NKT members, you might have insider's news to clear things on a neutral platform. But if your not the exclusive people of NKT who are at the top, I guess you wouldn't. But you still might know something.
thanks. :)
Hello sir
I know nothing about Lucy James or the inner workings of the NKT
cheers
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He is still someone’s teacher – how are we potentially destroying someone’s faith by just always using very strong words against him? “Liar, hypocrite, dictator” etc
I don’t see the recent posts about GKG as a smear campaign – it is a different way to look at how we react to posts about different teachers. Why is it okay to always bang on and on about what the Dalai Lama is doing wrong; but become so edgy when some questions are asked about other teachers?
I agree, people should be able to critisize Geshe Kelsang Gyatso with a good motivation. It is ok to "bang on and on" (is this an example of the kind speech you are always urging on everyone, HD?) about what the Dalia Lama is doing wrong becase it is by bringing his criminal activities to light, we benefit the world. As you probably know, the very existence of Shar Ganden and Serpom Norling have arisen due to these protests. It is no problem calling someone a liar wiht a good motivation if a liar they are, don't you think?
I agree wiht you, though, noone should become edgy if people want to probe your Guru, what do you have to fear?
If you don’t agree with what is being said about GKG, then think: this is exactly what you have been doing to the Dalai Lama forever now!
incorrect.
Why is it fair to have a smear campaign about the Dalai Lama but get antsy when some questions are asked about GKG/NKT?
There is no smear campaign because a smear implies something incorrect is being said, whereas in fact the Dl is a liar, and of course we have the evidence that proves it.
Once again, HD, you fall into the trap of thinking we can only say things that everyone is happy to hear.
Remember that the first Panchen Lama Losang Chokyi Gyaltsen said
"Since we cannot see others' minds.
We should make an effort to appreciate everyone's views,
But I cannot accept those who spread wrong views
and by this lead many living beings astray."
Khedrup Je, in his polemical defense of Je Rinpoche's teaching said things like
"...he is like a child boasting about being a scholar..."
"...Over and over you take refuge in a vessel of lies...."
"...lacking shame or guilt you wear the belt of ordained discipline loosely...."
"...they are a pack of fools..."
etc etc
we can find many examples like this.
If you would like to see lies, sarcasm, and critcal speech from the DL and his camp, I have plenty of examples for you.
So clearly criticizing other lamas is deemed acceptable by the great lamas of old AND by modern lamas on both sides of this issue.
There is a danger in losing our critical faculties if we just say "Oh, I can't see any faults or say anything because someone else thinks this person is a lama."
Frankly, that's just foolish.
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CC its getting really tired listening to you defend your "strong" words as a behaviour thats ok, and where you come from it must be an endearing quality that makes you very popular.
But I just want to point out one thing. Forget HHDL, forget GKG, what future is there for Buddhism where there is immense critical eye syndrome. I don't care what you say, the future for buddhism is dead when anyone can say anything about Dharma Teachers. True or not keep it to yourself.
Question:
a) If you believe a person is a Buddha and make sincere offerings to that person, would you collect merit or karma?
b) Would you still collect merit or karma if other people do not think that person is a Buddha?
c) Would you collect merit or karma if you stop someone making sincere offerings because you believe the person they are making offerings to is not a Buddha?
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But I just want to point out one thing. Forget HHDL, forget GKG, what future is there for Buddhism where there is immense critical eye syndrome. I don't care what you say, the future for buddhism is dead when anyone can say anything about Dharma Teachers. True or not keep it to yourself.
You know this a good point. What's the value in all this negative mud slinging and hostile energy? People here do bang on and on about the Dalai Lama being so bad but clearly millions of people don't agree and after a while it's so repetitive it becomes meaningless, like empty propaganda. As Buddhists we all know that things are just mere appearances and our reality is a reflection of our own minds so spewing hatred at the DL or GKG or anyone else just reveals to the world the poison in our own minds. How does Buddhism benefit from this and what sort of example does this set for others?
Instead of endlessly creating the cause for suffering why not just get on with practice? It's stupid to keep saying Shugden is banned when now we have Shar Gaden and Serpom Gompas where hundreds and hundreds of monks are free to do as they like. Or is the information on their websites not accurate?
If other Gompas don't want to practice that's also fine it's their choice too.
Please stop the hatred and stupid abusive posts these do more harm than good. People visiting this site will start to think that all DS followers are cultivating anger and hatred instead of LOVE AND COMPASSION FOR ALL LIVING BEINGS!
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What do you think People think as you dismiss 350 years of suppression as inconsequential?
Why do you think millions of people you think have such an opinion?
Many more millions could not give a fig whether he stands on his head and walks on his hands.
We gave the money to him and we deserve the truth.
Otherwise, what do you think the Buddhas was doing?
Picking his teeth or giving the status quo what for?
A friend a foe, a foe a friend. Treat everyone with equanimity
I already did that and now it is his turn.
Going over the truth makes it well known
"If other Gompas don't want to practice that's also fine it's their choice too./tm"
Did you read that he used fear and imtimidation to force their hands to feed their faces.
What was done in thirty.
We can undue in ten.
If Shugden had not been killed by the Dalia Lama and his Ministers
He would reigned Supreme and Banned Servitude and Slavery 350 years ago.
Instead the Tibetans got a War Lord posing as a Priest.
Exactly what I'm talking about...no wonder so many people think we're a bunch of fanatics.
What's the point of posting something like this for all the world to see.
Are you trying to destroy our credibility or what?
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"Dalai Lama being so bad but clearly millions of people don't agree "tm
How many Western Mahayanna Buddhist do you think were there in 1966?
Some to none! I know, I was there.
How many Anti War Protestors were there in 1966?
Some to none. It grew quickly once the truth was out!
I remember a Buddhist Monk in Viet Nam sitting in a fire he had set to Protest the Insansity of War, that was 1965. I was overwhelmed that someone could self ignite and never budge an inch from his Lotus while the fire consumned his body.
. What Power! What Conviction of Self
How many People even knew who Dl was before he received his Nobel Prize?
Who do you think arranged Dl's first formal visit to the West?
Gonsar Tulku and Geshe Rabten and Ganchen Rinpoches with Geshe Helmut did with open and happy hearts.
They arranged his invitations to meet heads of State. His Security,Everything.Drove his car, translated for him.
Dorje Shugden Lamas and monks acted as Plymouth rock for Mahayanna Buddhism Entering the West.
Back when you could sit with the Dalia lama all day long and maybe one security. What happened to those day thaimonk?
Alan Ginsburg was reciting poems on peyote soaking in a bubble bath blatthering about the Mystic Lamas and Beat Zen .
Millions might change their minds, if he does 'not' first recant and ask forgiveness. That we can do. That we have offered with folded hands millions of times ,all go unheeded until our knees made me get up and say.I am Mad as Hell and I am not Going to Take this Anymore! One simple little kind reply to one of his Earlier Benefactors. Just to discuss it like Brothers.
They had little resources in 1977, little recognition. Just some harmless cute little men.I donated a 115 acres in 1979 to preserve the Culture of Tibet to the Dalia Lama,actually it was 1977 in Indiana. a hubbub of Tibetan Buddhism.
With Geshe Rabten guided by Kyabje Trijang, Zong Rinpoche, Pabonkaba Rinpoche,Ling Rinpoche.
All guided and supported as well by the man who stayed behind .in Lhasa to collect art and relic spending ten years in prison to begin the Tibet House in New Delhi, Domo Geshe Rinpoche
All acting in concert as One
One could safely go to anyone.
All Devoted to Shri Dorje Shugden and the Preservation of the Teachings of Je T'Song Khapa transmittted as Purely as the day Lord Buddha first spoke them.
As Gelugpas we pride ourselves on logic and reasoned argument not meaningless babble. Posts like this make us look ridiculous.
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As Gelugpas we pride ourselves on logic and reasoned argument not meaningless babble. Posts like this make us look ridiculous.
Post like this does make some people look ridiculous. Yet, the fact is, it exists. But there are many people out there who are exploring and do not know what a Gelug is a how Gelugs pride themselves on logic. So it would be good to clarify. How many thousands of people find this on the net. Wouldn't it be nice if it was explained on a non-nkt platform so the stigma of bias is out of the way.
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What happened to Lucy James? Is what she say on this correct? :( Totally accurate? Any insider explanations to 'enlighten' us?
Please see:
[url]http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html[/url]
The link doesnt seem to be written by Lucy James, rather it is about her. There's a fair bit of stuff written online about this affair. How much of it is true is unknown. The official NKT response to this is:
"However, these types of accusations do point to a larger issue: Neither Lucy or Bjorn have made any complaints about what took place and by all accounts stayed happy and peaceful throughout. They remain loyal and practicing disciples of Geshe Kelsang and the NKT. As long as that’s the case, then what happens between them and their Spiritual Guide is, quite frankly, their business and not ours. No one had the right to put Lucy’s private letter from Geshe Kelsang on the Internet for example; this was not ethical."
As far as I know, whatever happened between Lucy James & NKT, she has not bad-mouthed Geshe-la as far as I can see. She still refers to Geshe-la as her teacher and promotes Kadampa Buddhism on her websites eg [url]http://knol.google.com/k/kadam-lucy-james/kadampa-buddhism/3l61loh9lbw08/4#[/url]
That's what I know and if true, then she does live up to what is expected of a student of the Vajrayana.
Her story is being used as a pawn in the frequent online debates that the NKT is constantly faced with. As organisations grow bigger, these problems are bound to crop up. We do live in samsara after all. And some of the principles of Vajrayana such as guru devotion will appear cultish to the general public. So wherever misunderstandings arise, the students should endeavour to clear the name of the teacher in a manner that is befitting.
LoneRanger is ruffled over TM's sincere question and I just wonder why.
I agree with Duldzin and see logic in what is said about Lucy James and her teacher. If Lucy has been used as a pawn on online debates, I hope someone who has the insider story will clarify and enlighten us and also clear the name of the teacher as a practice of guru devotion. I am sure Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche would have done it.
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Sorry, I am getting a little confused with all the drama surrounding the topic but nothing that shed light on what happened to Lucy James. As I was reading the link, I was confused by the politics and what's happening according to the sources within NKT. With the resignation of NKT's no 2 mentioned within the same site, I wonder if Lucy James the no. 3 within NKT....
Big Uncle
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"Wouldn't it be nice if it was explained on a non-nkt platform so the stigma of bias is out of the way. "bu
Yes! It would be quite nice to take a strool through Regent's Park
Boring topic, is it not tm?
Well people like you who have been wronged by Dalai Lama, hate him and his subject boring. People who wrote up about Lucy James were wronged by Geshe Kelsang. It could be boring to them but they made a blogsite about to let the world know of their grievances. Maybe you can make a blogsite about your's or have someone do it for you and you can write your heart's (dis)content all about it everyday, week and year non-stop since you don't get bored of writing about Dalai Lama. I was wondering what is up with the Lucy Blog? If there's any truth.
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Just found a cool "reverse email" look-up service:
[url]http://www.spokeo.com/email/[/url]
It scans blogs, Amazon, social networking sites (Twitter, flickr), etc. and compiles it all together for you.
Guess what happens when you put in thaimonk's email address ([email protected]) taken off his DS.com forum profile?
Go check it out for yourself!
Pretty depressing actually
Dear TC
What has this got to do with the discussion and contribution of thaimonk on this forum? Everyone in here has much to contribute but a few seems to have been more interested in bashing each other up. Please contribute to this forum in ways which advances our learning.
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It is ok to "bang on and on" (is this an example of the kind speech you are always urging on everyone, HD?) about what the Dalia Lama is doing wrong becase it is by bringing his criminal activities to light, we benefit the world. As you probably know, the very existence of Shar Ganden and Serpom Norling have arisen due to these protests. It is no problem calling someone a liar wiht a good motivation if a liar they are, don't you think?
There is a danger in losing our critical faculties if we just say "Oh, I can't see any faults or say anything because someone else thinks this person is a lama."
I do understand what you are saying about calling attention to these "criminal activities" and bringing to light the wrongs that have been done against so many millions of innocent people, the abuse of human rights etc
I feel though that there is a marked difference in approach between pointing out the Dalai Lama's actions and personalising it. Yes, there is evidence for the very contradictory and harmful actions of the Dalai Lama and it is not that we are just keeping mum about this and letting it slide. I agree that there should always be transparency and we have a right to check things out for what they are.
The reason I have said what I said in my earlier post is that in this whole issue I have felt that there is always a large group of people (not necessarily on this forum alone, but from what I have read in various articles/blogs, in forums, even in the great deception book) that bring a lot of rhetoric into the discussion, that it begins to feel like it has become a very personal attack against the dalai lama, in a way that - if you weren't away of the history or background - you would come in and just think, "hang on now, this is how buddhists are talking about other buddhists?" I thought the research of great deception was excellent and thorough, but I was very put off by the way it was written because it adopted such a belligent tone that seemed so opposite to the very cause of harmony and peace the book was trying to encourage!
Remember that not everyone is not up-to-date or well versed in the issues; they may know nothing except that there is this vague controversy. Someone new may have chanced upon a post which just stated, "Dalai lama is a liar and hypocrite" (despite the fact that the poster who wrote that had evidence and a strong and logical backing for what he said) - how does that come across or present itself at all for what everyone here in this forum has been trying to build for such a long, long time? Dalai lama may be sarcastic and incendiary with his words, but we don't have to match this responding in the same way, do we? It becomes rather like a case of tit for tat?
Many, many of you who have been here much longer than any of us have collated a tremendous amount of research and evidence for your points and I do respect that very much. Now, how do we present it without sounding rhetorical, petulant, or like we are launching a personal attack on dalai lama? This is how I - and I believe many of the newer people coming to this website/forum - are feeling. That is it personal against dalai lama himself, not his actions.
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from honeydakini
I do understand what you are saying about calling attention to these "criminal activities" and bringing to light the wrongs that have been done against so many millions of innocent people, the abuse of human rights etc
I feel though that there is a marked difference in approach between pointing out the Dalai Lama's actions and personalising it. Yes, there is evidence for the very contradictory and harmful actions of the Dalai Lama and it is not that we are just keeping mum about this and letting it slide. I agree that there should always be transparency and we have a right to check things out for what they are.
The reason I have said what I said in my earlier post is that in this whole issue I have felt that there is always a large group of people (not necessarily on this forum alone, but from what I have read in various articles/blogs, in forums, even in the great deception book) that bring a lot of rhetoric into the discussion, that it begins to feel like it has become a very personal attack against the dalai lama, in a way that - if you weren't away of the history or background - you would come in and just think, "hang on now, this is how buddhists are talking about other buddhists?" I thought the research of great deception was excellent and thorough, but I was very put off by the way it was written because it adopted such a belligent tone that seemed so opposite to the very cause of harmony and peace the book was trying to encourage!
Remember that not everyone is not up-to-date or well versed in the issues; they may know nothing except that there is this vague controversy. Someone new may have chanced upon a post which just stated, "Dalai lama is a liar and hypocrite" (despite the fact that the poster who wrote that had evidence and a strong and logical backing for what he said) - how does that come across or present itself at all for what everyone here in this forum has been trying to build for such a long, long time? Dalai lama may be sarcastic and incendiary with his words, but we don't have to match this responding in the same way, do we? It becomes rather like a case of tit for tat?
Many, many of you who have been here much longer than any of us have collated a tremendous amount of research and evidence for your points and I do respect that very much. Now, how do we present it without sounding rhetorical, petulant, or like we are launching a personal attack on dalai lama? This is how I - and I believe many of the newer people coming to this website/forum - are feeling. That is it personal against dalai lama himself, not his actions.
I agree very much what you say here HD. There are many new ppl who come to this website and never sign up but simply read, want to understand and learn. Very important that our forum as forum goers share information that 'educate' with a open mind while sharing our views we may be firm on. Firm does not mean we are stubborn, it simply means that I believe in what my stance is, but NOT AT THE EXCLUSION OF YOUR'S.
What happened to Lucy James would be misunderstood by many new people. It certainly took me aback a few steps. Especially the blog re Lucy is free floating and open for all to read. So who will explain what is happening to all the hundreds that come across and read it. Very bad views can be formed. Many can be turned away from the dharma because of it. This forum can be helpful in explaining as we are linked in one way or another with NKT because we worship the same protector. There are policies in NKT I do not agree on at all, but far be it for me to criticize. I would not join NKT because of what I read and examined, but that is for now. I am sure there are hundreds like me out there.
Speaking about this issue here is very helpful to many.
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What happened to Lucy James? Is what she say on this correct? :( Totally accurate? Any insider explanations to 'enlighten' us?
Please see:
[url]http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html[/url]
The link doesnt seem to be written by Lucy James, rather it is about her. There's a fair bit of stuff written online about this affair. How much of it is true is unknown. The official NKT response to this is:
"However, these types of accusations do point to a larger issue: Neither Lucy or Bjorn have made any complaints about what took place and by all accounts stayed happy and peaceful throughout. They remain loyal and practicing disciples of Geshe Kelsang and the NKT. As long as that’s the case, then what happens between them and their Spiritual Guide is, quite frankly, their business and not ours. No one had the right to put Lucy’s private letter from Geshe Kelsang on the Internet for example; this was not ethical."
As far as I know, whatever happened between Lucy James & NKT, she has not bad-mouthed Geshe-la as far as I can see. She still refers to Geshe-la as her teacher and promotes Kadampa Buddhism on her websites eg [url]http://knol.google.com/k/kadam-lucy-james/kadampa-buddhism/3l61loh9lbw08/4#[/url]
Thanks duldzin for the website link. I haven't seen anywhere online of Lucy James talking bad against GKG. Who knows what happened behind the scenes but the fact that there has been no public criticism speaks volume of Lucy James. Since Lucy's a student of GKG, doesn't it reflect well on GKG also?
I'm hoping that someone can shed some light on a few things re NKT.
http://www.nktworld.org/readmore.html has summarized quite abit of what circulates on the net.
- Is it true that NKT does not consider itself a form of Tibetan Buddhism
- The vows of its monastics are confined to NKT-defined vows? What does this mean?
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Firstly, I did not know who Lucy James was until I read this thread. And with the link provided by TM, one can deduce a lot of negativity about both Lucy James and NKT just from reading that post. Worse of all, it does not represent a good view on Tibetan Buddhism at all.
This is my personal opinion, of course.
With all the 'airing' of unhappy feelings and 'voicing' of negativities for everyone's viewing pleasure, Tibetan Buddhism looks like the stuff Hollywood Dramas are made of. How would anyone have any respect for it and trust that the path it teaches is valid or beneficial - regardless of the teacher, center and name. So, be it HHDL, GKG, NKT or whoever - it seems every name has some skeletons in their closet. I say again, it seems that way when all we read are such unpleasant things.
Of course, when we read the students' internal dialogue - be it in this Forum, or Lucy James's Blog or anywhere else, then no one will care to think much of the Dharma at all.
In this respect, it is TURNING AWAY a lot of people from potentially entering the Dharma or learning more about the Dharma. Either way - it is not a positive thing.
Attacks of any kinds will not be valued, respected or even applauded. Not in the realms of spirituality, not in the name of religion. Not when whatever we seem to be preaching or learning is LOVING KINDNESS.
I think, as a newbie, I would like to see more examples of what Compassion actually entails, means and how it is practised in real life situations.
And the only way, I can see Compassion in action is when real, mature, sincere practitioners actually practise it and engage in it. Not just talk about it, quote from texts or scriptures but it does not flow into their manners of body, speech and mind.
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From a western perspective, all this talk about scandal, cult, sex, one spiritual leader has already had its effects.
I do consider myself a buddhist I do understand the whole Vajrayana aspect of spiritual practice, where nothing is as it seems but all of this has been seen before, many many times before where 1 man stands up breaks away and becomes responsible for the path of many.
I tried searching online to find out more about this lucy james, NKT involvement and GKG just to see what I would find out. You know we are supposed to check out our teachers right before entering into a spiritual relationship lifetime after lifetime.
I am not trying to put down NKT because i don't know anything about it I am just offering a perspective from a westerner who is wanting some form of spirituality what they would think if they dug a little under the surface. In this instance there is whiff of coverup and intrigues, the makings for another waco, ghayana, manson and more... as soon as there is a hint of sex scandal thats the end of making any connection with quite a large group in society.
They will continue as before in their usual existence, of having children, praising their children for having children of their own, then having a meaningless death with not much else to show for a whole lifetime.
I also wonder whether the western student has also taken things a bit at liberty, as it seems to be the case online these days, that its a selective dharma practice, to take a piece from here and there and call themselves spiritual people.
And the only way, I can see Compassion in action is when real, mature, sincere practitioners actually practise it and engage in it. Not just talk about it, quote from texts or scriptures but it does not flow into their manners of body, speech and mind.
i will continue to quote this saying whenever I see this in the forum from now on... seems to be aLOT of these types of beings, and they call it debate, but it waters down their reputation.
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Wow, so much information and so many comments. Unfortunately, there seem to be limited Dharma learning available in many of the posts, which were more like attacks and criticism.
With this experience as a new Dharma student, reading such exchanges can create a very damaging impression of the Dharma and Dharma practitioners. As Iloveds stated, sex, politics, hypocrisy etc. can be real turn off for spiritual seekers. There is enough of this in the “real” world, no one needs to come to a spiritual/religious forum for more of it.
It is very sad to see the DL and GKG being criticized so harshly by fellow Dharma practitioner because:
1) Regardless of the mistakes they have done, he has done so much good for so many. For example, Tibetan Buddhism flourished like wild fire outside of Tibet for the first time in history under the leadership of His Holiness. GKG established 1000s of centers so that many will be touched by the Dharma. Even in the basic upbringing of a child, we teach them to have gratitude for being fed, dressed and sheltered. I trust that we should offer more to beings who showed us the way to liberation.
2) If Dharma practitioners behave no differently from the non-Dharma practitioners, then, what is the point of studying the Dharma? This point is awfully frightening because it can completely defeat the purpose of Dharma’s existence: to spread in all ten directions to benefit all sentient beings.
Looking at the bigger picture, if we can criticize and bring down one Master, we can proceed to justify the bringing down of a Dharma Centre. As these points from which Dharma can spread is brought down, the Dharma is tarnished and may not touch as many mind streams as possible.
Don’t get me wrong, we can never destroy the Buddhas, highly attained beings (like GKG and DL) or the Dharma down as they are way above that. The people we actually bring down at the end of the day, are ourselves…our minds, resulting in the reinforcement of our vicious cycle within the 6 realms of samsara.
Therefore, it is clear that, it is us who need the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Not the other way round. Therefore, it would be more constructive to put our efforts into choosing our Guru wisely, keeping clean samaya with him/her and focus on developing Dharma understanding and practice.
If we are all sincere in our declaration that our purpose of promoting the anti/pro DL and anti/pro GKG etc. campaign is to protect the lineage of Lama Tsongkapa, we should remind ourselves that the best way to achieve this goal is to practice consistently with pure motivation.
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I think what separates a smear campaign from a sincere discussion is the intent.
I don't believe that TM's intent is to smear or disparage. He was asking a honest question and asking if anyone had any info to add to help clarify. Then the name calling started, which I believe we all can read for ourselves. So, there is no need for me to even repeat in here.
Again, I see that we should separate ourselves by even thinking that someone has ulterior motives in this Forum with whatever they post here. Some people seem to be dead set on thinking that and so, their language does come across as such.
This is a place where by we should be able to learn from one another and have healthy discussions in order to gain more understanding. With more understanding and real knowledge, we can help clarify even more - with others beyond this Forum. So, those with real info to share, please do share. But please, refrain from name calling and unpleasantries. They are so un-necessary.
Those with nothing more to add, and no real info to share, please refrain from adding fuel to any fire, if at all. It is really not helpful at all.
And please, by all means, stop making assumptions of this or that. Seriously, everyone in here has been guilty of it one way or another. Just go read your own old posts and comments. I am not excluded either.
Now, as hard it is for some to hear about such unpleasant things about your own centers, Gurus and etc - imagine how others have felt when you did the same with HHDL or anyone else, even to each other.
Every Lama in here is someone's Guru. Each has done great things. That is why they are so famous and where they are now. Otherwise, no one would be even writing about them.
I used the analogy of the doctor to describe our Guru - because that is how I do view it, but it does not mean that I would be imposing it on everyone else and forcing them to agree with me.
For the lack of a better analogy, please bear with me here - if your Guru has saved you and helped, of course, you'd be eternally grateful and that is why you are following this Guru. This is equivalent to finding that great doctor who has saved your life.
Now, everyone here has their own doctor who saved their lives in one way or another, it is not at all pleasant to read someone else criticize the doctor who has saved your life now, is it? Hence, then stop doing it to others.
Please just address the issue at hand and help clarify without getting all emotional and adding anger or hatred into the whole discussion, because it is really obvious that the anger and hatred is really yours and yours alone.
I have really valued those who shared more knowledge and provided different points of views in here. Now, perhaps Lucy James may have written those things about her own Guru or may be she did not at all. In any case, if she still refers to GKG as her Guru to this day, then may be there is something that we really do not know and understand here.
It is also possible that Lucy may have written all those things when she was feeling unhappy but it does not seem that she cannot grow and learn from there. She may have changed and matured since then. It is also possible, no?
We all grow and change as time progresses when we learn new things and understand more. I remember that my own relationship with my Guru took a while to grow into what it is today. There were times when I had doubts and I was unhappy. But that is not my Guru's fault, but my own. I do know that now.
The Guru has been always there for us, the students and the Guru has been constant. Where as, we the students would go through ups and downs and all our own emotional roller coaster before arriving to a place of a true Guru-Disciple relationship. I am not implying that Lucy James went through the same, but I am saying that I would not be reading into everything a student writes with blind trust. I'd be examining more and staying open.
Which is why the Forum is a good place to have - we can share more, examine together and those with more info can enlighten the rest of us but please, minus all the ugly words. There is no need.
Thank you for your kind patience. Have a good evening, everyone.
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The purpose of this forum is to try to get as much correct facts from as many resources as possible. If the collective efforts can sieve out fact from fiction or half truths, then everyone can benefit or learn from the subject matter ,whether its debate or just sharing views since the discussion will have a proper platform. That is I beleive the intention of TM..
I like what Duldzin said , that Lucy had not gone on a campaign to disparage GKG after what happened or engage in exposing NKT’s dirty linen or any form of vendetta. So the issue could really be a private matter between Guru and disciple which may seem like a negative thing for outsiders and which had been exploited by anti NKT campers. What Lucy should do ,( and which all of us as students should do, if faced with similar situation) is to come out to clarify and protect our Guru’s good name.
By not doing so, even though she has not spoken anything bad about her Guru, the controversy and speculation will create negativities and disturb the minds of others and students with respect to GKG and which will not be what any spiritual head of an organization would like to see happen.
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Dear Honeydakini
Very well written and I agree with you.
To quote you, “Sure, the Dalai Lama has been responsible for many actions that we do not agree with. But by the same token, he has also been responsible for many tens of thousands of people joining the Dharma. He is still someone’s teacher” and the same goes for GKG as quoted by you “I don’t believe the things that have been said about GKG. Whether or not they are true, I choose instead to look at all the thousands of centers he has around the world and all the thousands of people who are being connected to the lamrim, taking ordination and learning dharma, inspired by his GOOD qualities." Both of them have a large follower of students and that’s great. However, if one is not happy of what is being said of GKG then how would his students feel if the Dalai Lama is always being criticized and attacked by others?
As a Vajrayana practitioner, it is best that we have inter-harmony and never criticize each other’s Guru.
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There’s something really quite ironic about the fact that in spite of all that has arisen out of this Lucy James controversy, she still considers him her Guru – that speaks a lot in itself I think.
I have said this before and I will say it again: that if we really are concerned about the welfare of another practitioner, it would be more beneficial to give them clear guidance and advice on the aspects they should look for in a teacher, or how to best conduct themselves in a Dharma way, for the best results in their practice. This is a much more positive way and will allow people to think for themselves, clearly, to arrive at an educated and logical conclusion regarding any Guru.
I don’t agree that just pointing out a teachers’ faults (even if with good intention) is very inspiring. Nobody likes to hear that their teacher is doing something wrong. Nobody. It is very hurtful and, for someone who is less advanced in their practice, they will become even more defensive of their teacher and practice. Just look at how the Dalai Lama’s students reacted to the demonstrations. Yes, they did bring to light a lot of important issues, and monasteries like Shar Gaden and Serpom did arise from that; but by the same token, how many other people’s practice could they have damaged?
If in fact we see that a teacher IS conducting himself in a way that we perceive as bad or incorrect, then it is more helpful to advice a student by way of showing him what would be A CORRECT WAY – such as by referring to the 50 verses of guru devotion, and if the guru is acting in an incorrect manner, to then advise them on what they can do to not break samaya while preserving and continuing well with their own practice.
Simply holding smear campaigns and creating these kinds of alternate websites to bash an organisation and lama doesn’t help to clear confusion or give new practitioners an idea of what to do or where to turn to. It just makes them have more doubt, more confusion and at worst, turn them away completely from practice. It works both ways – smear campaigns against lamas like GKG, as well as against the Dalai Lama.
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It is not very clear to me from this thread what exactly Geshe Kelsang or Lucy James are being accused of doing or saying, but everyone knows that Lucy James is a loyal and devoted disciple of Geshe Kelsang and has never said anything critical of him publically (and, in all likelihood, not privately either).
The NKT World website everyone is referring to on this thread has nothing to do with her apart from the fact that they use her. Because she was asked to stop teaching around the time of the demonstrations, the anti-NKT group who run that website seized on this, and used it to spread propaganda against Geshe Kelsang and the NKT. They have no idea of anything that went on behind the scenes, of course, and the claims they make on that website on that page and in general are extraordinarily way off the mark and generally possess not a shred of truth, or at least are grossly distorted. It helps to look at the website www.newkadampatruth.org to see how this is so.
Lucy's relationship with Geshe Kelsang remains as close as ever. Being relieved of her busy teaching responsibilities after almost 30 years has given her the freedom to do long retreat, which she had wanted to do for a long time. She is reportedly very happy.
I hope this helps.
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Well, we're always opening a can o' worms once we start talking about teachers! You just can't get away from the fact that with every teacher, there will be people who will speak nasty things against him - we're in samsara, ho ho! And this is what we will always be faced with. Even the good Sage Shakaymuni had Devadatta which only goes to show that it sure is never about the teacher and his merits but the students and their demerits.
It is always good to question and ask if we are doing it with the intention to clear our doubts and understanding but not so good if it is only to create an argument or stir up some sort of hostility. Sometimes, too, we gotta be careful because even if we do have a good intention, the words that come rolling out of our mouths may not and then we still create hostility. So this is always a good practice of awareness - how we are talking and what we are talking about. And what do we want to achieve by it?
Poor old Lucy James - whatever the true story is between her and her good Guru - became a big pawn in this campaign. This whole thread isn't about lucy anymore - it's about bickering about teachers and trying to find justifications for bickering about Gurus or the Dalai Lama. Every teacher will encounter a difficult student - imagine if we dug up all the stories of all the teacher-student conflicts, it will never end. Seek justification, sure is a good thing - but in this case, what happens if you don't get it, ever? In the case of Lucy James we may never know what happened between her and her teacher. In the case of the Dalai Lama we may never know why he said the things he said or did the things he did. So we have two choices: speculate forever or try to remain positive, beneficial and helpful. Find ways to continue to inspire others, not put them down or create more doubt in these uncertain times.
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if we really are concerned about the welfare of another practitioner, it would be more beneficial to give them clear guidance and advice on the aspects they should look for in a teacher, or how to best conduct themselves in a Dharma way, for the best results in their practice. This is a much more positive way and will allow people to think for themselves, clearly, to arrive at an educated and logical conclusion regarding any Guru.
I totally agree with honeydakini. To my opinion, every Guru has different methods in training a student pending on their mindset and experience. At times, we might not be in agreement, but we don't have the clairvoyance as our Guru has. It's the trust that we have in our Guru in order for us to go through any training and become a victor!
I know it's easier said than done with all the critics, accusation etc coming towards one's direction. It will take a lot of wisdom and patience for any one to overcome it.
It's also a Guru's compassion and bodhisattva's nature that a Guru 'sacrifice' their name and reputation in order to help one student.
Om mani padme hum
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Well, I certainly don't know who Lucy James is before I read this thread. As I was reading the postings, I felt a bit disgusted in the way, no names mentioned here, that the postings did not really answer the questions posted by Thaimonk initially, but went on for a long time bashing each other.
I guess this has all arisen because obviously some of us here are students of GKG. And they have immediately put up a defensive mode and engaged in retaliation. I guess it's normal reaction since no one like to hear anyone attacking their own teachers.
So we all touched on the subject that we should not bark on the negativities we see on an outward level on any Gurus, which I totally agree. Who are we to judge on someone's Guru, when even Lucy James herself has not said anything bad about hers?
I believe at this 21st century, internet has been used to spread a lot of good and useful information as well as been abused to spread rumours. Whatever is posted on the net, how do we verify the authenticity of all those letters posted? And why are these supposedly private letters being posted for everyone to view? If these letters are real, what is the motivation behind the one who posted these letters up?
Once again, I am in sync with a few people here that we should refrain ourselves from bashing others' Dharma centers and others' Gurus as it really reflected badly on us here at this forum, as we are all Dorje Shugden practitioners. At the end of the day, we can all investigate to find out more on whatever we would like to discuss but with the true spitituality of having harmony and respect for each others.
I guess the only way to resolve what happened to Lucy James is when she can come out and speak up again. Right now, she has not critized anything or said anything bad about her own guru GKG, so as Honey Dakini said, that speaks volume of who Lucy James is.
when NKT grows, obviously there are people out there who are anti-NKT. It is such a common phenomena that there is literally no surpise to it at all. Some like and some don't like. So be it. But being Dharma practioners and especially being DS practitioners, we MUST by all means promote harmony in one own's center and also among other Dharma centers. Afterall, if we do not, what Dharma are we talking about here?
Triesa
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Anyone read Chinese? Just be who you are! The same canon copier that post on the
guestbook with slimey statements
http://www.gelu.org/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=7985&page=2
[email protected] appears there too, with Google translator mentioning something about a publishing company, which I think is "Keqie La Buddhist centers" = Kechara.
The username is "sagan" and when you click on his "view website" link, there is a Tsem Tulku blog:
http://zhandugu.blog.163.com/
Who are you??
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if we really are concerned about the welfare of another practitioner, it would be more beneficial to give them clear guidance and advice on the aspects they should look for in a teacher, or how to best conduct themselves in a Dharma way, for the best results in their practice. This is a much more positive way and will allow people to think for themselves, clearly, to arrive at an educated and logical conclusion regarding any Guru.
I totally agree with honeydakini. To my opinion, every Guru has different methods in training a student pending on their mindset and experience. At times, we might not be in agreement, but we don't have the clairvoyance as our Guru has. It's the trust that we have in our Guru in order for us to go through any training and become a victor!
I know it's easier said than done with all the critics, accusation etc coming towards one's direction. It will take a lot of wisdom and patience for any one to overcome it.
It's also a Guru's compassion and bodhisattva's nature that a Guru 'sacrifice' their name and reputation in order to help one student.
Om mani padme hum
I think that with Lucy being a student of GKG for 28 years, the practice that she has with her Guru is between the two of them. Just as how readers of this forum have their own relationship with their Guru, who are we to question someone else's? Some...most of us might not even have clean samaya with our own Gurus.
I strongly agree with a lot of what HoneyDakini has written on this topic, and like him/her, although I don't necessarily agree with NKT's methods of 'non-aggressive protesting' against HHDL that GKG permits (correct me if I'm wrong), "I choose instead to look at all the thousands of centres he has around the world and all the thousands of people who are being connected to the lamrim, taking ordination and learning dharma, inspired by his GOOD qualities."
Lucy has always spoken nothing but praises about GKG (as can be seen in an interview just a month before the letter leaked http://bit.ly/aNrRkr) so I don't really feel that we have the right to judge (and for some, very harshly so) whether she really has wronged NKT and her Guru, or to mock GKG for any of his actions.
With regards to what Triesa has said, we can't verify the authenticity and those private letters (according to nktworld.org) 'The Gyatso Dear Lucy email was not private. It was distributed by NKT without wish for confidentiality (actually, just the opposite according to Dekyong) and thus it and others pertaining to Lucy James distributed freely by NKT were widely available on the Internet.'.
From what I deduce, it seems to me that it's part of the practice between GKG and his student. I don't about Lucy's case, but I feel that some students who are nurtured to become Dharma teachers and do teach for a few years, they might unintentionally, and unknowingly let their ego's grow. With so many people looking up to you and constantly thanking you for helping them, I would find it hard to be sure that my own ego might not be affected, considering that I'm a lay person coming from a layman's background and living a layman's life (in a lot of ways, just like her).
I can't imagine how I'd feel if such a controversial and damaging (to my reputation and ego) personal issue was circulated in the center that I was part of (and in Lucy's case, where she taught) and even worse, around the globe for everyone to speculate. It really must not be easy for someone who's still very attached to ourselves, our ego...our "I"'s and "me"'s.
IF she isn't guilty of anything that she has been accused and look-down for, I really do respect her for being exemplary with her Buddhist practice.
IF she isn't guilty of anything, I really do respect GKG for putting his and NKT's reputation on the line for the practice of his student.
IF she isn't guilty of anything, I really do respect all of GKG's students and NKT's followers for not holding negative views and taking flight upon hearing the news.
According to this link, she has returned back to teach.. (http://www.nktworld.org/air.html)
This is just my personal opinion, please don't take it so strongly to heart. I'm only here to learn and have been reading this forum for a few months now. I feel like a lot of very good writers with apparent in-depth Dharma knowledge have taken things personally and instead of imparting knowledge, they write nasty comments. Do share with the intention of a healthy discussion.
Thanks, JJ
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Anyone read Chinese? Just be who you are! The same canon copier that post on the
guestbook with slimey statements
[url]http://www.gelu.org/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=7985&page=2[/url]
[email protected] appears there too, with Google translator mentioning something about a publishing company, which I think is "Keqie La Buddhist centers" = Kechara.
The username is "sagan" and when you click on his "view website" link, there is a Tsem Tulku blog:
[url]http://zhandugu.blog.163.com/[/url]
Who are you??
No offense, but this forum topic is about the controversy surrounding Lucy James. Please do read the posts and stick to the relevant topics. I'm trying to do that as well. It would be good to read the post that I have just written and reply. I'm always here to learn and you seem to be good at researching.
What you write are what seems to me like little gossips, I've been following this forum for a good 4-5 months now here in the States (and yes, I can read Chinese) and I really don't think that people in this forum care about these things. There are so many websites that are filled with real gossip and it really leads me nowhere with trying to expand my knowledge. I'm only thankful that this site is up, and there are people here on healthy discussions. It allows me to learn. Please just contribute accordingly.
Thanks, JJameson
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Another made up person protesting from the same old tired worn out site.
You people are really a piece of work
Now we have another schism as a diversion from the actual schism
Why do you not stay the same person or do you think you are Dorje Shugden?
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Anyone read Chinese? Just be who you are! The same canon copier that post on the
guestbook with slimey statements
[url]http://www.gelu.org/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=7985&page=2[/url]
[email protected] appears there too, with Google translator mentioning something about a publishing company, which I think is "Keqie La Buddhist centers" = Kechara.
The username is "sagan" and when you click on his "view website" link, there is a Tsem Tulku blog:
[url]http://zhandugu.blog.163.com/[/url]
Who are you??
What is the problem? That is my email. I am multi-lingual. I am a great fan of Tsem Tulku. And I linked his blog to the China world so that the Chinese world can receive his teachings !! What did you discover? What is wrong? You found another blog about His Eminence Tsem Tulku Rinpoche and it is done by me. Who knows how many other fans out there have created blogs about Tsem Tulku Rinpoche. By the way I don't think Tsem Tulku Rinpoche knows Chinese.
What does this have to do with Lucy James?
THAIMONK
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Nothing to do with Lucy,but everything to do with your little coup
Did you think you could just walk in here and take over the site for your lama's fame and fortune
Here in the West, little mind, We do not care to put anyone up on a throne except for Teachings.This is not Malaysia and we have no history with God Worshipping Men as Gods. So forget your fantasy and get back to reality. Your friend lonely hermit is a real piece of nonsense. Where did you get him the nursery or mental ward.
If you guys want to get serious, then shut up and leave others alone. Post what you like, but stop defending your made up kingdom. I like what you are doing, but you are not smarter than the rest of us. So stop be deceptive and sly! It makes me sick and angry to read the Lone Hermit and yours suggestions.
You stop attacking GKG and me and you'll be fine. Otherwise you leave me no choice, but to go after you and your posting.
If you do not like what I say, to f...... bad!
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The reason I have said what I said in my earlier post is that in this whole issue I have felt that there is always a large group of people (not necessarily on this forum alone, but from what I have read in various articles/blogs, in forums, even in the great deception book) that bring a lot of rhetoric into the discussion, that it begins to feel like it has become a very personal attack against the dalai lama, in a way that - if you weren't away of the history or background - you would come in and just think, "hang on now, this is how buddhists are talking about other buddhists?" I thought the research of great deception was excellent and thorough, but I was very put off by the way it was written because it adopted such a belligent tone that seemed so opposite to the very cause of harmony and peace the book was trying to encourage!
Remember that not everyone is not up-to-date or well versed in the issues; they may know nothing except that there is this vague controversy. Someone new may have chanced upon a post which just stated, "Dalai lama is a liar and hypocrite" (despite the fact that the poster who wrote that had evidence and a strong and logical backing for what he said) - how does that come across or present itself at all for what everyone here in this forum has been trying to build for such a long, long time? Dalai lama may be sarcastic and incendiary with his words, but we don't have to match this responding in the same way, do we? It becomes rather like a case of tit for tat?
Hi, I'm new to this forum, i have read through a few posts in this forum, i agree with what Honeydakini said, many of the conversation here has become personal attack instead of sharing information.
To someone very new like me, it can be easily putting off by reading all these posts in this forum, why? reason is because for what I understand a Buddhism is suppose to practice to let go, forgive, to cultivate care, kindness, compassion, etc, etc... but what I've seen here is contradict to what I've learned. If someone who are without dharma knowledge said this, i would have understand it, but if this comes from a dharma practitioner, it does sound funny, many people told me, we are human, we live in samsara, but, in other thought, does it sound like it is an excuses for us to continue be what we are? an excuses for us to not to change?
People tend to use their own assumption to judge what's going on with DL or GKG, but how much they understand about what they are doing?
I like what is says here http://www.nktworld.org/revisit.html
"Selfishness is causing all the suffering in this world.
We are all slaves to the demon of excessive self concern.
We have 84,000 delusions. 21,000 different types of anger. 21,000 different types of desirous attachment and 21,000 different types of ignorance and 21,000 different types of inappropriate attention.
We need to stop looking at other's faults, our main preoccupation in life.
We have a lot of views that are wrong, they are completely wrong.
Life seems very simple to the deluded mind.
People who seem to make us feel bad, although actually nobody really has that power, no one has the power to make us feel bad. There's only one thing that makes us feel bad. Just one. And it's not a person, it's the demon of self cherishing.
The vast majority of people have the unfortunate title of stranger. And we feel indifferent to all of them. Sad, so sad. We feel indifferent to others...That can include an entire race of people, an entire group of people that hold particular religious views, an entire group of people who hold political views. We can just wipe them out with one amputation. We forsake them and have indifference towards them.
All we need to do is stop cherishing our self and learn to cherish others. This takes a humble mind."
But how many of us can do that???
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What is the problem? That is my email. I am multi-lingual. I am a great fan of Tsem Tulku. And I linked his blog to the China world so that the Chinese world can receive his teachings !! What did you discover? What is wrong? You found another blog about His Eminence Tsem Tulku Rinpoche and it is done by me. Who knows how many other fans out there have created blogs about Tsem Tulku Rinpoche. By the way I don't think Tsem Tulku Rinpoche knows Chinese.
What does this have to do with Lucy James?
THAIMONK
I read that Tsem Tulku has advised his students to follow the DL with regards the Shugden dispute. He said it was just Tibetan politics and that it has no relevance to our dharma practice.
www.freesangha.com/forums/index.php?topic=923.0
TM are you able to clarify this one way or the other?
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Nothing to do with Lucy,but everything to do with your little coup
Did you think you could just walk in here and take over the site for your lama's fame and fortune
Here in the West, little mind, We do not care to put anyone up on a throne except for Teachings.This is not Malaysia and we have no history with God Worshipping Men as Gods. So forget your fantasy and get back to reality. Your friend lonely hermit is a real piece of nonsense. Where did you get him the nursery or mental ward.
If you guys want to get serious, then shut up and leave others alone. Post what you like, but stop defending your made up kingdom. I like what you are doing, but you are not smarter than the rest of us. So stop be deceptive and sly! It makes me sick and angry to read the Lone Hermit and yours suggestions.
You stop attacking GKG and me and you'll be fine. Otherwise you leave me no choice, but to go after you and your posting.
If you do not like what I say, to f...... bad!
Dear Tc,
You have been warned regarding your slanderous talk and rudeness. Your accusations educate no one and you provide no information that leads to any knowledge. Your posts for years are negative, angry words against the Dalai Lama.
We ask you to please not be on this website any further. We are sorry for this. But this website will not tolerate any more slander, harsh words and accusations from you. We wish you to make peace with yourself and the world around you.
Mana
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Another made up person protesting from the same old tired worn out site.
You people are really a piece of work
Now we have another schism as a diversion from the actual schism
Why do you not stay the same person or do you think you are Dorje Shugden?
Dear TC
Do not generalize and put down the people on this forum. You are being very rude and disrespectful. Who are you to say who is made up and who is not? And how many names have you used on this forum?
You have not put in the effort to build, design, develop this website. What rights do you have to criticize this website that it's tired and worn out!
TC, how have you contributed to this website. If this website is so bad, why are you still here!
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Nothing to do with Lucy,but everything to do with your little coup
Did you think you could just walk in here and take over the site for your lama's fame and fortune
Here in the West, little mind, We do not care to put anyone up on a throne except for Teachings.This is not Malaysia and we have no history with God Worshipping Men as Gods. So forget your fantasy and get back to reality. Your friend lonely hermit is a real piece of nonsense. Where did you get him the nursery or mental ward.
If you guys want to get serious, then shut up and leave others alone. Post what you like, but stop defending your made up kingdom. I like what you are doing, but you are not smarter than the rest of us. So stop be deceptive and sly! It makes me sick and angry to read the Lone Hermit and yours suggestions.
You stop attacking GKG and me and you'll be fine. Otherwise you leave me no choice, but to go after you and your posting.
If you do not like what I say, to f...... bad!
Extremely unnecessary.
Mana
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Another made up person protesting from the same old tired worn out site.
You people are really a piece of work
Now we have another schism as a diversion from the actual schism
Why do you not stay the same person or do you think you are Dorje Shugden?
So unnecessary. What a rude way to 'welcome' the newcomer. This is not called for here nor accepted here on this Buddhist forum.
Mana
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There have been cases of many people on this Forum (inother threads) who have been very rude with their name-callings. any many people have asked for them to be at least civilised. This Forum is for all to engage in debate and get questions answered.
So, what happened to Lucy? She has not come forward here to answer this question herself. Like Triesa, I do not know of Lucy if not for this thread. And yes, no one has been able to answer that question : What happened to Lucy James? Looks like no one is bothered to help TM get the correct answer as the thread has gone off on a different angle to other matters.
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Is this thread going thread going anywhere?
Is it getting personal?
Is anger the norm of this forum?
Why should 1 person decide to be the champion of anger to achieve a point of view, other than to stroke their verbal ego on a public platform.
If you have a problem with someone, why do you use the board to have your personal debate and disrupt and abuse the use of the forum.
You could have sent PM's to the user, you could after not resolving your differences requested the admins support.
Did you try all this before the tyrade of replies which only served to fan a fire that was never really necessary. Your tactics to draw response sound like barking to me.
Whom am i talking about? The selfish one, the take me as me, and the whole world should because I really am "I".
People make me "Hate" others make me who I am today. When I wake up tomorrow may I bless the world with my "
manjushri speech" or my worldly speech.
Thought people here took refuge in the Lamrim. I'm not scholarly enough to quote from it, but just based on attitude alone, can we Honestly say Lamrim is soo dear to us all?
Admin's please if this discussion doesn't go anywhere may I suggest the thread be locked / deleted to please the few.
iloveds
~ but definitely not this.
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If Lucy is being used as a pawn and it could be so, why doesn't she speak up? Why doesn't she write the opposite or ask them to remove her name from their blogsite and any reference to her so she can't be used as pawn?
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reading this thread initially makes me wonder and also inquisitive about what had transpired between Lucy James and GKG in NKT and get some good updates.
As I go down the thread, I find it a bit disheartening to find people here still go about bashing other people/centre/Lama in order to get them to look really silly which in turns makes this entire thread pointless and frivolous.
Personally, we have to be honest with ourselves what kind of message we wanna send out to the people who are gonna read this thread here. If something has transpires between a guru and his/her disciple, it is a lesson to be learnt by the disciple and kept to heart never to repeat that mistake again. On the teacher's side, it is obvious that the teacher will be forever compassionate and will find ways to "re-tune" their students back onto the good path in order to bring benefit to the student and the people this student can benefit.
Untiringly, the guru suffers from ridicules, back lashing and other negative comments for being 'unfair' but in actual fact exhibits unlimited compassion which is unfathomed by the eyes of a normal person. This is a well known fact if he is a real Lama which wishes to benefit his student/disciple. Through this great kindness, coupled by the efforts and mertis of the wronged student, that student will heal/transform to be a better being.
I don't know if what has been reported is true about Lucy James but indeed there's always hope and another chance for people in life, whether secular or spiritual. This is well known fact.
I wonder who else shares my sentiments/feelings.
H1N1
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I'm going to ignore the side tracks and go straight to the initial question posed - what happened to Lucy James... and the whole truth is I don't know. This is despite the fact that for some odd reason, NKTworld website linked little old me to NKT and Lucy James' replacement, Kelsang Demo - because we happened to be facebook friends. That article caused some ripples on my facebook with anti-NKT people asking some of my friends to not be friends with me. Very bizarre.
So as you can imagine, I am not particularly enamoured with NKTworld and take everything they say with a pound and a half of salt. As I read through their article on Lucy James, I felt that the reporting was very biased against NKT and if i did not know better from my personal experience with them (the website), I may have believed all the negative things said about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
In a way, whether the emails were real or not, whether Lucy James had a real gripe with NKT or not, i feel that it's none of my business. Whatever transpired in their centre, between Guru and student, is between them. I don't know the context nor the background of their relationship and even if i did know them well, i would know them in the context of their guru/student relationship so it would be not fair for me to comment.
If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.
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HD, I like your posts, and I think a lot of readers here like them, for they don't put fuel on the fire, they don't "take side", they are informative and put the topic back on track.
Now, about Lucy James, I really can't answer the question.
Yet, I would like that we go back to some basic before we scrutinize other peole's relation with their Gurus, as this exercise could be pretty un-conclusive when our mind is clouded by delusions.
The Lamrim lists FOUR GREATNESSES OF THE DHARMA:
1. the greatness of allowing you to realize that the teachings are without contradiction
(that requires humility, open-mindedness as well as a sincere and pure motivation AND WE KNOW HOW HARD IT IS!)
2. the greatness of allowing all the teachings to present themselves to you as instructions
(that would equate to "walking the talk")
(AND THAT WON'T HAPPEN IF WE STILL SEE CONTRADICTIONS!)
3. the greatness of allowing you to easily discover the tue thinking of the Victorious One
(that would be to attain realizations)
(AND THAT WON'T HAPPEN IF WE DON'Y PRACTICE!)
4. the greatness of allowing you to save yourself from the worst misdeed
(AND THAT LIKELY TO HAPPEN IF WE DON'T GET ANY RESULT FROM OUR PRACTICE!)
(that would be to abandon Dharma)
The Lamrim also says that THE ROOT OF THE PATH IS DEVOTION TO ONE'S SPIRITUAL GUIDE (GURU).
Don't we all suppose that Lucy James knows this?
Maybe she has even realized these headings? I can't say, i don't know...
But sure, in the relationship between a Guru and and student, there is more than meet the eyes.
What more? I don't know, maybe in this case, there is nothing more than meet the eyes.
But on the basis that I don't know, I would rather refrain from making a judgement.
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I'm going to ignore the side tracks and go straight to the initial question posed - what happened to Lucy James... and the whole truth is I don't know. This is despite the fact that for some odd reason, NKTworld website linked little old me to NKT and Lucy James' replacement, Kelsang Demo - because we happened to be facebook friends. That article caused some ripples on my facebook with anti-NKT people asking some of my friends to not be friends with me. Very bizarre.
Dear WisdomBeing,
It's sad to read the amount of backstabbing, rumours, politics, segregations, camps that's out there surrounding all the good that's available in the Buddhist path. It's commendable that you have remained unbiased on your facebook and in this forum...and I wish to thank you for reflecting the Buddhist path well as a practitioner.
So as you can imagine, I am not particularly enamoured with NKTworld and take everything they say with a pound and a half of salt. As I read through their article on Lucy James, I felt that the reporting was very biased against NKT and if i did not know better from my personal experience with them (the website), I may have believed all the negative things said about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
Good point! I suppose that's how rumors spread like wild fire...when people jumps to conclusions.
If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.
Kudos to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Lucy James!
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In a way, whether the emails were real or not, whether Lucy James had a real gripe with NKT or not, i feel that it's none of my business. Whatever transpired in their centre, between Guru and student, is between them. I don't know the context nor the background of their relationship and even if i did know them well, i would know them in the context of their guru/student relationship so it would be not fair for me to comment.
If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.
Well said, Kate.
To be honest, I am not as interested in what happened between Lucy and her Guru, as I am in how this episode has become so blown up all over the Buddhist world. I am sure there are hundreds if not thousands more cases where a student had a kind of fall out with her teacher – perhaps even worse. This even happens in the monasteries, where monks blatantly forsake their teachers, disrobe and leave.
I am curious as to how this has become such a tremendous issue when actually, it is happening all the time. It happens with every single one of us too. It’s on a smaller level perhaps but it still definitely happens: each time we don’t listen to what our teachers tell us to do, go against his word, try to prove ourselves right over him. Many practitioners out there are probably worse than Lucy in the way they go around badmouthing their own Gurus after they leave.
So my question is (a slightly different take on the original question of this thread) how did this Lucy James issue become so big? And why? This would certainly say a lot for how the Buddhist world has become that something so sacred – a guru-disciple relationship – has become so sensationalised.
Love, Rachel RahRah
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Great sharing, Kate. Thank you.
I especially like the part you wrote about how Lucy James has refrained from saying anything and still regards GKG as her Guru. And that is the very testament that her Guru has taught her well, and that their relationship is still very much a teacher-student relationship.
I am sorry to hear about you being dragged into the anti-NKT war.
I don't really believe what NKTworld posts - it seems to be taking bits and pieces of stories from the little that they know and then crafting it into something they want the reader to see - that is, their very own perspective. This is the most dangerous kind of reporting, because it sounds so credible and professional. Scary to even think how many people read the stuff and totally buy it. How very sad!
Yes, if I didn't follow this thread and read the more meaningful information shared here, especially, the logical thinking from various members, then I think I might be inclined to believe the stuff NKTWorld writes. For this and more, I am very glad to be in this Forum and have this space to discuss and ponder on all issues - some may be difficult and ugly, but if we do address them in a manner that promotes better understanding, it can only benefit more people.
I for one have learnt something much more about NKT, anti-NKT and I have come away feeling more respect for GKG and Lucy James.
I'm going to ignore the side tracks and go straight to the initial question posed - what happened to Lucy James... and the whole truth is I don't know. This is despite the fact that for some odd reason, NKTworld website linked little old me to NKT and Lucy James' replacement, Kelsang Demo - because we happened to be facebook friends. That article caused some ripples on my facebook with anti-NKT people asking some of my friends to not be friends with me. Very bizarre.
So as you can imagine, I am not particularly enamoured with NKTworld and take everything they say with a pound and a half of salt. As I read through their article on Lucy James, I felt that the reporting was very biased against NKT and if i did not know better from my personal experience with them (the website), I may have believed all the negative things said about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
In a way, whether the emails were real or not, whether Lucy James had a real gripe with NKT or not, i feel that it's none of my business. Whatever transpired in their centre, between Guru and student, is between them. I don't know the context nor the background of their relationship and even if i did know them well, i would know them in the context of their guru/student relationship so it would be not fair for me to comment.
If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.
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Not that this is my business to comment on the "Lucy-issue", but it seems that people miss a few general points, so I feel justified to comment here:
1 - a student or a disciple can disagree with his or her Guru or Lama, on basically just about everything. This is a logical necessity within Buddhism, because, no disciple can be expected to share the view of the Guru, for otherwise the disciple would already be a Buddha, and thattaway not be a disciple. Hence, all disciples necessarily disagree with their Gurus, at some level at least. (In Tantra, this 'mental gap' is tried to overcome quickly, and the methods of overcoming it form the major part of the practice. But it holds true also in Sutra, as the original students of Shakyamuni - Ananda, Shariputra, Mogallana, and so forth - were not immediately Buddhas themselves. Only after a week or practice, or after a 40 years of practice)
2 - any Teacher of Dharma must conform to the views of his or her Guru or Lama in public, that is, while being in a role of a Teacher, for the transmission of Lineage to take place. In cases when the Teacher is also a student (read: always) he or she can in private hold different views, as per the above point 1, but cannot express them aloud, in public, while being in the role of a Teacher of the lineage of his or her own Teacher.
The so called "Lucy-issue" is just that, as far as I understood it. She spoke something in direct opposition to, not merely misquoting or lacking understanding, the words of her Lama (no matter what the point of differing view was) as a Teacher of the lineage of her Lama, and was therefore by default no longer fit to be an official transmitter of the lineage. Thereby GKG had no option but to take the teacher-status away from her. This decision was not made as any 'punishment' towards her, nor was it personal, but it was made so that the lineage would really and thoroughly be transmitted to all those who were her current students. One cannot transmit a lineage coming from someone with whom one disagrees diametrically and openly. If your Guru says "go left" and you then as a teacher-student say to your students "let us go right", would you in that case be transmitting the lineage? What would your students think then? "Guru L says non-x, while Guru L's Guru, the Big K, says yes-x, so what is Guru L then teaching, really? Her own vision, or the lineage?" The decision to 'boot' Lucy was made for the benefit of the many, not for the punishment of a single. She still is of course a practitioner, and a disciple of GKG, as is fitting and wonderful.
PS: For what I know about the happenstance in question, I agreed with Lucy. Therefore I would have been 'given the boot' also, had I been in her shoes. :P
PPS: Hopefully this thread now stops here... it is a weird thing that this popped up here in the first place, and that so many people who neither knew about this, or knew about it very well without never thinking about it in dharmic terms, have seen it necessary to comment comment comment...
Buddha taught Lamrim, not Gossip.
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Great sharing, Kate. Thank you.
I especially like the part you wrote about how Lucy James has refrained from saying anything and still regards GKG as her Guru. And that is the very testament that her Guru has taught her well, and that their relationship is still very much a teacher-student relationship.
I am sorry to hear about you being dragged into the anti-NKT war.
I don't really believe what NKTworld posts - it seems to be taking bits and pieces of stories from the little that they know and then crafting it into something they want the reader to see - that is, their very own perspective. This is the most dangerous kind of reporting, because it sounds so credible and professional. Scary to even think how many people read the stuff and totally buy it. How very sad!
Yes, if I didn't follow this thread and read the more meaningful information shared here, especially, the logical thinking from various members, then I think I might be inclined to believe the stuff NKTWorld writes. For this and more, I am very glad to be in this Forum and have this space to discuss and ponder on all issues - some may be difficult and ugly, but if we do address them in a manner that promotes better understanding, it can only benefit more people.
I for one have learnt something much more about NKT, anti-NKT and I have come away feeling more respect for GKG and Lucy James.
I'm going to ignore the side tracks and go straight to the initial question posed - what happened to Lucy James... and the whole truth is I don't know. This is despite the fact that for some odd reason, NKTworld website linked little old me to NKT and Lucy James' replacement, Kelsang Demo - because we happened to be facebook friends. That article caused some ripples on my facebook with anti-NKT people asking some of my friends to not be friends with me. Very bizarre.
So as you can imagine, I am not particularly enamoured with NKTworld and take everything they say with a pound and a half of salt. As I read through their article on Lucy James, I felt that the reporting was very biased against NKT and if i did not know better from my personal experience with them (the website), I may have believed all the negative things said about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
In a way, whether the emails were real or not, whether Lucy James had a real gripe with NKT or not, i feel that it's none of my business. Whatever transpired in their centre, between Guru and student, is between them. I don't know the context nor the background of their relationship and even if i did know them well, i would know them in the context of their guru/student relationship so it would be not fair for me to comment.
If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.
It is very interesting to see what you both posted here. I find it a nice interesting read.
It is nice to express opininons and not have to bash the Dalai lama. Bashing the Dalai Lama is not dharma, good karma or in accordance with any dharma teachings. And it would be slandering.
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It is nice to express opininons and not have to bash the Dalai lama.
Bashing the Dalai Lama is not dharma, good karma or in accordance with any dharma teachings.
And it would be slandering.
Now this of course depends on what we mean with the word "bashing".
It it means "purposefully telling bad things", it is a non-dharmic thing, and so forth, as there is an evil intent to tell baddities.
But if someone would say that the DL has "went against his own Guru, has caused a division within Tibetan community, etc" with the intent of trying to inform people that they should not venerate an evil-doer, but to request him to stop His non-dharmic activities, would that be "bashing", or dharmic?
As to karma, I understand that intentional silence is equal to the act committed by another (more or take). Dharma-teachings do not say, to my knowledge, that people should be silent in the face of evil. And as for slandering, the HHDL has himself declared his Gurus to be "wrong", and all the reports of ostracization and violence towards DS-practitioner to be "just rumours", while we all know very well, that they are a constant fact.
In fact, not to speak out, is a karmic act,
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Kate's recent post have made me think deeply about how influential this entire post is to the people outside which of course affected me as well. NKTworld has made itself too accessible as a paparazi of the New Kadampa Tradition and of course its founder and members of this organization.
I was thinking to myself, why put so much effort into bringing up uncanny issues within the organization which doesn't really benefit anyone but in actual fact causes so much unnecesaary upheaval and distress amongst its readers. Aren't all the great translated works of the venerable GKG worthy of our praise for our own personal and spiritual growth that we cannot thank this venerable enough for making so easily available for us.
I am going for a more balanced, optimistic approach towards this matter and in all matters in regards to all holy masters regardless of their practice and belief in DS or not. I think that is the spiritual way and that is the right way to do things. There is no way around it which makes it better/worse or more palatable with scandals or other unnecessary stories. Whether what transpired between Lucy James and GKG was true or not, the important matter is that Lucy is back teaching and benefiting people in NKT.
If the story behind it is beneficial for us to know, it would've been published by now. Don't u guys think so.
take a look at this new thread by Honey Dakini, I feel that this is more of a sensible approach to take.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=851.0
thanks
H1N1
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Now this of course depends on what we mean with the word "bashing".
It it means "purposefully telling bad things", it is a non-dharmic thing, and so forth, as there is an evil intent to tell baddities.
But if someone would say that the DL has "went against his own Guru, has caused a division within Tibetan community, etc" with the intent of trying to inform people that they should not venerate an evil-doer, but to request him to stop His non-dharmic activities, would that be "bashing", or dharmic?
As to karma, I understand that intentional silence is equal to the act committed by another (more or take). Dharma-teachings do not say, to my knowledge, that people should be silent in the face of evil. And as for slandering, the HHDL has himself declared his Gurus to be "wrong", and all the reports of ostracization and violence towards DS-practitioner to be "just rumours", while we all know very well, that they are a constant fact.
In fact, not to speak out, is a karmic act,
I think the 'bashing' is the tone of the post. For example, i can state that I think that the Dalai Lama's ban goes against his Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche's teachings. In doing so, isn't he breaking the samaya with his Guru? I don't think there is anyone here who disagrees with that premise. Ok, i might be wrong, but i don't think that is slandering or bashing him up. It's factual.
I don't think anyone here AGREES with the ban. And everyone AGREES that the ban is destructive and yes, schismatic. Shar Gaden and Serpom are supreme examples of how schismatic. HOWEVER, I think it's just how we perceive the reasons BEHIND the ban and it's very clear that there are different points of view on it, which is fine, since this is a forum where we can all express our opinions respectfully.
Re the ostracisation and suffering by the Shugdenpas is beyond doubt - and i think that is also mutually agreed by all in this forum. In fact, i'm always saying that it's fine for me in my nice comfy (ok sometimes the heating doesnt work so well) flat in London, with Sainsbury's just round the corner, to do my prayers and meet my friends and talk about Dorje Shugden. Nobody (not yet anyway) is beating down my door and sending me death threats. But for those in the Tibetan refugee camps - i feel for their angst. And thank goodness for people like Tenzin Sungrab, who is there on the ground and tells us what's happening - eg the monk who looks after the DS chapel who gets beaten up.
So i always think - what can i do to help - positively that is? i'm not rich (I wish) but i can contribute a bit to Tenzin Sungrab's mission - where he directly helps the monks - bravo! To Tk - who is always the first to say he supports any request for help. To this website - someone must be paying for it, maintaining it. To the upcoming movie - someone is researching, producing it.
I can also read up on what's going on so if people ask me, i can give an objective (i try) overview of what's going on, and more importantly focus on this practice rather than its politics.
Most of all, i can be a good example of my Dharma practice. Of course i'm not a Buddha.. far from it, but I try to live my life with Dharma guidelines as much as I can.
There are many people who come to this website - i've noticed the counter jumping.. what information will they see... what impression of this Protector will they get? This is the Protector of Lama Tsongkhapa's tradition... what are the practitioners of this Protector like? Who are we? Are we Buddhist?
I've always thought that Buddhism is about others. To focus out on their needs. So for these new people, what can i do? I've answered this question in other threads too so i don't need to repeat it here.
Re speaking out - definitely we must speak out - firmly but with logic and respect. I don't think speaking out is about taking personal swipes at each other. Just because someone doesn't agree with my opinion, i don't call them stupid or foolish. That's basic etiquette, i think. Free speech is not about personally attacking the other person if they don't agree with you.
I really hope you understand where I'm coming from. Please look at our similar goals and not our differences. I love Dorje Shugden and I hope many people will have the opportunity to have his blessings and connect with Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings.
Let's share the blessings that we have received with the world... how have we benefited from DS practice or even the Dharma in general? Has our Dharma practice made us kinder, more patient, more respectful? Why are we learning Dharma? What is it for?
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WB, you always write the best stuff that echoes the things in my heart and mind!
Thank you so much!
I can definitely relate because I live both in London and Hong Kong. Now, mostly Hong Kong. But I have the luxury, comfort and ease of openly talking about DS and even putting DS's picture in my desk without as much anyone raising an eyebrow.
So far, I have not come across anyone who would be beating down my door and asking me why this and that, or have me reported to TGIE. In fact, some colleagues are so fascinated with my picture that they have been asking what's someone like me doing with that picture? That allows me to start a dialogue, and even direct those who are very interested to this site.
Anyways, my point is there is a huge difference between presenting your views and debating - to attacking and using very angry words to the point of name calling. Who will listen to the real message in all those "ugly noise"?
We can still respect each other even when we can't agree. What is so difficult or wrong about that?
So, if I don't like chocolate ice cream but prefer vanilla, and you like chocolate ice cream, does it mean that I can't share ice cream with you ever again?!
We can still enjoy having ice cream together, even though its different flavours for you and me, right?
This is my very simple analogy.
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Dorje Shugden is being put down by the Dalai Lama on so many levels. Does Dorje Shugden take any action? If he does not, is it he has no power over a mere mortal like Dalai Lama?
Each time he takes trance, he bades his followers to exert patience and never criticize the Dalai Lama. So that is the example of WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.
The Dalai Lama did this to me and that to me so I can bash him, curse him, called him all types of names because he hurt me is NOT THE PROPER CONDUCT OF A DHARMA PRACTITONER. You have given your life, property, name, reputation to much less in this life and previous lives, so let it go. What do you rant, rave and jump like a lunatic for the rest of your life. Count your losses, accept your karma and move on. WHO ON THIS FORUM HAS NOT BEEN CHEATED, DISILLUSIONED, DISAPPOINTED, USED OR NOT ABUSED at one time or another in your lives by people you trusted/believed in/or were close to? Everyone has. That is the whole reason we are in the dharma, counselling or medication. Get help and stay there till you are helped.
Being mad and typing obcenities every where does not heal you. The persons who encourage this behaviour does not help that person at all either.
The people who are around people with so much anger SHOULD NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR ANGER whether it's to a lama, deity, thought, situation, centre, friend, animate and inanimate object. Anger is the cause of the Three lower realms. If the Dalai Lama is wrong, then see you in hell as the saying goes. But if you keep it up, then you will be there. Is that where you really want to go? Take rebirth there due to your anger?
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Now this of course depends on what we mean with the word "bashing".
It it means "purposefully telling bad things", it is a non-dharmic thing, and so forth, as there is an evil intent to tell baddities.
But if someone would say that the DL has "went against his own Guru, has caused a division within Tibetan community, etc" with the intent of trying to inform people that they should not venerate an evil-doer, but to request him to stop His non-dharmic activities, would that be "bashing", or dharmic?
As to karma, I understand that intentional silence is equal to the act committed by another (more or take). Dharma-teachings do not say, to my knowledge, that people should be silent in the face of evil. And as for slandering, the HHDL has himself declared his Gurus to be "wrong", and all the reports of ostracization and violence towards DS-practitioner to be "just rumours", while we all know very well, that they are a constant fact.
In fact, not to speak out, is a karmic act,
I think what you have said here is very clear and I understand what you mean about the intent with which we are speaking.
Not speaking up in a strong manner however is not to say that we keep mum and don’t speak at all – no, keeping quiet is just as much a manifestation of a selfish mind that wishes only to protect itself.
I do, however, also agree strongly with what Kate has said here: “I don't think speaking out is about taking personal swipes at each other. Just because someone doesn't agree with my opinion, i don't call them stupid or foolish. That's basic etiquette, i think.”
This too is very clear – and applies of course to both sides. Whether you’re speaking in this way in defense of the DL (but against Dorje Shugden) or in defence of DS (and against the DL), personal swipes are just never cool and certainly doesn’t reflect well on ourselves as a practitioner.
What Zhamed Palmo has pointed out is very good – it makes us consider why we are saying what we are saying?
However, I do think that often, a good intent is not really enough and we need a certain level of skilful means to be able to carry out that good intent all the way to its desired result. This is why I have also often spoken about looking at other methods for bringing our message across – instead of merely just pointing out all that the DL is doing wrong, perhaps for some people, it may be more helpful to explain to them what they should look for, the positive and correct aspects of teachers and practice that they should strive for. This way, they can come to their own logical and informed decision about how to proceed in their practice.
I have written about this before but I mention it again as I think it’s relevant in the context of this post: I respect very much the great amount of research that went into the Great Deception book, for example, but I was totally put off by the excessive rhetoric and very strong language used throughout the book. I felt that this was very clearly a book that “bashed”. Rather than presenting the facts in a clear and direct manner, the details were always coloured by what seemed like very personal interpretations – by the end of the book, I felt like I had had a view completely jammed down my throat: “Subscribe to this view or else you are a traitor to our cause because DL is such and such and such, and how can you think otherwise?” I felt like I was being totally patronised and didn’t have the space to debate things or look at things objectively because there was always such a strong view being forced upon me. I dread to think what a new person would have thought upon reading this. This, I feel is “bashing” when we are consciously trying to strongly influence and change someone’s view to be that of ours, instead of allowing them the facts and respect to think for themselves.
We talk about the importance of having debate in Buddhism, but this kind of forced view – “bashing” – is not an open debate. What I have liked about this website is that it presents all the information – articles about the ban, videos about the protest, evidence of what the Dalai Lama and TGIE have done to suppress DS practitioners, personal letters etc etc etc BUT it leaves it up to you to make a decision – what do you make of all this information? It is clear who is suffering, who needs support. At the same time, plenty of information is also provided about the practice itself, Dorje Shugden, the masters who propitiate him etc. It is then also clear what aspects of the ban are correct, incorrect/totally false, illogical. It allows people the room to investigate and come to an informed decision on their own. In this way, I believe, the practice and faith becomes stronger as it is based on conviction and understanding, not merely because someone has said rude things to them or patronised them into thinking that only one view (about either DL or DS) is right
Consider that “bashing” isn’t subjective merely from the side of the person speaking, but also from the person who is on the receiving end. And how we are tailoring our information, speech and presentation will totally influence how they make their own decisions about spiritual practice.
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I do, however, also agree strongly with what Kate has said here: “I don't think speaking out is about taking personal swipes at each other. Just because someone doesn't agree with my opinion, i don't call them stupid or foolish. That's basic etiquette, i think.”
This too is very clear – and applies of course to both sides. Whether you’re speaking in this way in defense of the DL (but against Dorje Shugden) or in defence of DS (and against the DL), personal swipes are just never cool and certainly doesn’t reflect well on ourselves as a practitioner.
I really like what you wrote up here. Calling eachother by different deragotory names such as liar, stupid, and the likes is so uncalled for.
This forum is not just for us. It is for the thousands every year who drop by to read. For their sakes we must have good writings here.
TK
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This too is very clear – and applies of course to both sides. Whether you’re speaking in this way in defense of the DL (but against Dorje Shugden) or in defence of DS (and against the DL), personal swipes are just never cool and certainly doesn’t reflect well on ourselves as a practitioner.
If we wish to convince the world about the ban and what the Dalai Lama is doing, we should first attract them with posts that are relevant, educational, and pleasant to the newcomer and eachother. Otherwise, they will get turned off at the first instance.
tk
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However, I do think that often, a good intent is not really enough and we need a certain level of skilful means to be able to carry out that good intent all the way to its desired result. This is why I have also often spoken about looking at other methods for bringing our message across – instead of merely just pointing out all that the DL is doing wrong, perhaps for some people, it may be more helpful to explain to them what they should look for, the positive and correct aspects of teachers and practice that they should strive for. This way, they can come to their own logical and informed decision about how to proceed in their practice.
This statement is so powerful. GOOD INTENT IS NOT ENOUGH. To justify any actions by intent alone is not enough. Intent, action, and the concluding effects must all be CONSIDERED. When we consider from beginning to end, then that is a true lam rim practitioner. It is our responsibility to consider all of this for others before we speak or act.
We must consider the effects from beginning to end. If the way we speak hurts more than helps, then we shouldn't expect the whole of samsara to ACCEPT US AS WE ARE. Then why strive to be a Buddha. As a Buddha is far from the WAY WE ARE. We have to constantly strive to find generous, skilfull and pleasing methods to soothe the minds of others. We can't go up to level of a Buddha, but they can come down to our level and manifest as we need for the moment. If we turn others off because of our presentation style, then we are not going to win them over are we? If we think, well too bad, that's who I am. Well that is who you percieve yourself to be so if it is not effective, change it. Life's too short to be stuck on a ineffective mode of conduct.
Giving information that is not biased and presenting it to the general public TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES on this forum or in a book or website is really THE WAY TO GO.
tk
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I have written about this before but I mention it again as I think it’s relevant in the context of this post: I respect very much the great amount of research that went into the Great Deception book, for example, but I was totally put off by the excessive rhetoric and very strong language used throughout the book. I felt that this was very clearly a book that “bashed”. Rather than presenting the facts in a clear and direct manner, the details were always coloured by what seemed like very personal interpretations – by the end of the book, I felt like I had had a view completely jammed down my throat: “Subscribe to this view or else you are a traitor to our cause because DL is such and such and such, and how can you think otherwise?” I felt like I was being totally patronised and didn’t have the space to debate things or look at things objectively because there was always such a strong view being forced upon me. I dread to think what a new person would have thought upon reading this. This, I feel is “bashing” when we are consciously trying to strongly influence and change someone’s view to be that of ours, instead of allowing them the facts and respect to think for themselves.
I had great hopes in the book Great Deception. I bought over 100 copies to pass out to people and distribute. 70% of the feedback I got back was it was too anti-dalai lama with very strong rhetoric that was excessive. Some after flipping through felt it was a hate book against the Dalai Lama.
The book was well researched and had so much wealth of information. The title and presentation style should be more 'democratic' with information presented for people to think, digest and come out with their own conclusions. That style of presentation might be too 'gentle' and not win your point across immediately, but it will not leave a wrong negative imprint in the minds of people about the Shugdenpas. Eventually they can hear more, go on the net and do more research. Truth will come out if it is presented correctly.
Why doesn't anyone listen, respect, or even care about the Talibans. Their presentation is over extreme. Shugdenpas or people on this forum are nowhere near Talibans, but it is just an example.
TK
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Consider that “bashing” isn’t subjective merely from the side of the person speaking, but also from the person who is on the receiving end. And how we are tailoring our information, speech and presentation will totally influence how they make their own decisions about spiritual practice.
Superb point! Spoken like a dharma practitoner. 'Bashing' is not merely from the side of the person speaking, but the recipient must be fully considered. That is most important for a dharma student. To always think of the recipient.
tk
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I like Samayatrees’ analogy of the doctor and patient. In relation to some of the posts on this thread, it would seem like some students (patients) are like a contaminated cup whereby whatever good thing (Dharma teachings) the doctor (Guru) put into the cup, it will become soiled. From the writings, it seems like everyone is well read in the Dharma and know the various happenings in the Dharma world. However, it is very unfortunate that some are using this knowledge to create such disharmony, confusion and disruption in this forum.
It is certainly sad and awful that, in the past, “bad” decisions have been made and suffering has been caused. However, grasping onto this past and continuously talking about it does not help matters. In fact, such reinforcing negative actions results in the suffering of more individuals, such as new practitioners who come across this thread/the anti-NKT site and get disheartened by the poor reflection on Dharma by the participants.
If we believe in group-karma as Dharma practitioners, we are creating the cause for Dharma to fall right here with such words and use of such content. Therefore, instead of using harsh words & brainpower to criticize the many kind Dharma teachers who have spent their lives spreading the Dharma and other students and centers, we need to re-focus on our Dharma practice.
As to whether an act is “bashing” or Dharmic, I have been taught to look at the result around. If the result is one that creates happiness and peace, then it is probably Dharmic. If the result is confusion, aggression, name calling etc. then it would be fair to deduce that the act is “bashing”.
Again, some decisions and actions of DL and/or GKG are not agreeable and caused problems, but holding onto the negative past and adding fuel to fire, is not a solution (if it were, this problem would have long been solved). There are other more Dharmic methods available to solve this problem and it is the way that we choose that determines the type of person we are. If students would simply refer to constructive ways of the Dharma like the 50 verses of Guru Devotion to resolve this controversy, there is no need for hurtful words towards “old” Dharma sisters and brothers. Additionally, our “innocent” new Dharma brothers and sisters would not have to read such aggressive and damaging accusations. Like HoneyDakini say, think of OTHERS before we act.
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As I read all the posts again - I keep seeing that there is a Lucy James in every one of us. Because she is a student like all of us, and her relationship with her Guru may mirror ours with our own Teachers.
Do we always trust our Guru and will go all the way - all the time? How many of us can say that?
Have we been guilty of speaking badly about our Guru behind his back? May be some.
Have we publicly disobeyed our Guru because we couldn't understand why he said or did certain things, and have that disobedience landed us in some sort of trouble? Yes, probably more times than we care to admit.
Did we need all of our Guru's advice, all the time? Probably not all the time, and not on everything - just the things we like or can relate to, or can accept.
WE will always find it most difficult to do anything or say anything that we cannot accept. No, there is nothing wrong here. Just goes to show everyone is deeply attached to their own way of thinking and do not trust their Guru 100% as they should. After all, this is the path of Vajrayana. And we all know what that entails and means.
So, at the end of the day, we may have the karma to meet the great surgeon who will save our lives or the great teacher who will help transform our minds, but when we will not take the bitter medicine - nothing will happen. In fact, we can easily become worse and degenerate further.
So, what happened to Lucy James? A little bit of "her" lives inside us all.
What can we all learn from Lucy James?
1) All the things that she apparently did say and do to give 'anti-NKT' enough ammunition to create confusion and bad press about her Guru and NKT itself, to the point of smearing herself in the process. May be.
2) All the things she didn't say or do, and continued being a student of GKG and still regarding GKG as her Guru.
The teacher and student relationship is never an easy one. Yes, not easy on the student. But most challenging for the teacher, above all.
I have been reading this book called, "A Dangerous Friend". It really talks about the teacher and student relationship extensively. It has truly opened my eyes. So, I am really not quick to judge who is right or wrong. It is strictly personal, between that particular student and teacher. Only they know the truth.
I am sure no one is able to speak for you about your own relationship with your Guru and no one can, because it is not their journey but yours alone.
Yes, we may learn from one another and exchange notes, but we can never judge. We do not walk in their shoes nor live their lives.
So, you are students of GKG - great, let see how good a person you are and what wonderful works you are doing. Similarly, we say we are DS practitioners, then we will be measured by how we speak and treat one another.
And if we are not reflecting a good impression - then we have to ask ourselves why? Perhaps it is time to go back to the drawing board or training camp? :)
Let's create good causes for Dharma to grow and DS to be embraced by those who do not know him, everyone. All of you here are very well learned and talented (from the way you all write). So, these talents should be put to much better use and create better causes for what we all believe in.
Have a good night.
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I take your points, Helena, and agree that we are works in progress when it comes to being good disciples. But for the record Lucy James herself has never spoken badly about her Spiritual Guide. She was asked to resign because the director of her center resigned because he thought that Geshe Kelsang was engaging in political behavior. She had apparently never said publicly that it was political behavior according to her other students, and had been at the demonstrations, but seemed to end up being a fall guy for whatever reason, karmic or otherwise. That reason is between her and Geshe Kelsang, who was most likely at least giving her food for deep thought, and Lucy herself seemed to take it as a teaching and stayed good humored throughout. Geshe Kelsang offered her the option to teach shortly afterward at a larger center, but at the time she was already doing some retreat and helping the NKT with various useful projects, or for her own reasons did not rush to take up that offer, which Geshe Kelsang accepted. For the last year she has been enjoying a long retreat with Geshe Kelsang's blessings.
I am not going to write this all over the Internet as I don't think we should intrude on her privacy further (leave that to the anti-NKT sites); but as everyone has been speculating like crazy on this thread, I thought it might be helpful to give these additional details from what I understand of the situation. Thanks.
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Not that this is my business to comment on the "Lucy-issue", but it seems that people miss a few general points, so I feel justified to comment here:
1 - a student or a disciple can disagree with his or her Guru or Lama, on basically just about everything. This is a logical necessity within Buddhism, because, no disciple can be expected to share the view of the Guru, for otherwise the disciple would already be a Buddha, and thattaway not be a disciple. Hence, all disciples necessarily disagree with their Gurus, at some level at least. (In Tantra, this 'mental gap' is tried to overcome quickly, and the methods of overcoming it form the major part of the practice. But it holds true also in Sutra, as the original students of Shakyamuni - Ananda, Shariputra, Mogallana, and so forth - were not immediately Buddhas themselves. Only after a week or practice, or after a 40 years of practice)
2 - any Teacher of Dharma must conform to the views of his or her Guru or Lama in public, that is, while being in a role of a Teacher, for the transmission of Lineage to take place. In cases when the Teacher is also a student (read: always) he or she can in private hold different views, as per the above point 1, but cannot express them aloud, in public, while being in the role of a Teacher of the lineage of his or her own Teacher.
The so called "Lucy-issue" is just that, as far as I understood it. She spoke something in direct opposition to, not merely misquoting or lacking understanding, the words of her Lama (no matter what the point of differing view was) as a Teacher of the lineage of her Lama, and was therefore by default no longer fit to be an official transmitter of the lineage. Thereby GKG had no option but to take the teacher-status away from her. This decision was not made as any 'punishment' towards her, nor was it personal, but it was made so that the lineage would really and thoroughly be transmitted to all those who were her current students. One cannot transmit a lineage coming from someone with whom one disagrees diametrically and openly. If your Guru says "go left" and you then as a teacher-student say to your students "let us go right", would you in that case be transmitting the lineage? What would your students think then? "Guru L says non-x, while Guru L's Guru, the Big K, says yes-x, so what is Guru L then teaching, really? Her own vision, or the lineage?" The decision to 'boot' Lucy was made for the benefit of the many, not for the punishment of a single. She still is of course a practitioner, and a disciple of GKG, as is fitting and wonderful.
PS: For what I know about the happenstance in question, I agreed with Lucy. Therefore I would have been 'given the boot' also, had I been in her shoes. :P
PPS: Hopefully this thread now stops here... it is a weird thing that this popped up here in the first place, and that so many people who neither knew about this, or knew about it very well without never thinking about it in dharmic terms, have seen it necessary to comment comment comment...
Buddha taught Lamrim, not Gossip.
Dear Zhalmed Pawo,
Thank you very much for your explanation. I am very interested to study more on what you mentioned in point 1 and 2. May I know what is the source or from where can I study more?
1. From a Dharmic point of view, I think when worldly affairs creep in, often there will be confusion on the student's side on what role the Lama actually 'plays'. Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche said, that in each of the three yanas, the teacher has a different role. In the hinayana, he is the elder (Skt. Sthavira), or wise man. In the mahayana, he is the good spiritual friend (Skt. kalyanamitra). In the vajrayana, he is the master- almost a dictator- who tells us what to do. The relationship must be very strong, definite, and direct- one of great devotion. If a student's faith in the Guru is strong and with no agenda, then perhaps there won't be such issue of disagreeing with the Guru when it comes to even worldly matters I guess. If we trust our Guru for bigger things like the path to enlightenment, why do we have to disagree when it comes to enrolling people to protest (although I personally do not agree with the protest!)? Perhaps she really should have been removed because she was an unsuitable vessel for transmitting the ‘lineage’ of GKG as she doesn’t trust her Lama.
2. There will always be people who criticise or be against someone else, for example, there are people who are against GKG/NKT, there are people who are against His Holiness, there are people against Dorje Shugden etc. In the case of Lucy James, we have arguments from NKT world (http://www.nktworld.org/readmore.html) vs New Kadampa Truth (read reason 5 from http://newkadampatruth.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/nathaniels-31-reasons-for-leaving-the-nkt/) etc.
I guess as Shugden practitioners, whether or not we personally pro or anti GKG/NKT or HHDL, that should not be the issue or our view when it comes to the forum. The forum is not about what we feel and try to get others to support our ‘cause' and position, but rather, a platform to dispel wrong views and encourage each other's practice & learning. So, I hope we can all work towards this aim.
I also agree with Helena’s point that there is a Lucy in all of us, and that is really a good point to contemplate on our devotion to our spiritual guide, and the REAL reason behind why we are ‘devoted’ to our spiritual guide.
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Dear Dharmapal,
Thank you for your sharing. Again, I am sorry that we had to intrude on Lucy's privacy and have you divulge what you know in order to 'educate' us. Having said that, please know that you have done a great justice by this sharing. At least, more people know about Lucy now and how devoted she is to her Guru. That alone, is something more than redeeming (for the lack of a better word).
So, to be fair - although it sounded like crazy speculation proposed by TM with this thread. The ending is a good result. Lucy James has more people who knows better now - at the very least, from this Forum. Of course, not that Lucy needs any of us standing by her or understanding her situation. But more importantly, people would be more cautious about the nonsense that NKT World writes from here on. So, I think that is a very good thing.
Sometimes we get caught in something we don't like and may have had to endure some suffering in the process, but if the result brings greater good and understanding for the greater whole, then I think it has been a very beneficial process indeed.
In this respect, I do thank TM for bringing this up in the first place although many people got very unhappy about it. Perhaps, the language in we choose to communicate with each other could be much improved. At the end of the day, I am very happy to know that Lucy James is happy, doing her retreat and has her Guru's blessings. That's the most important thing - that she is well and happy.
Have a good day :)
I take your points, Helena, and agree that we are works in progress when it comes to being good disciples. But for the record Lucy James herself has never spoken badly about her Spiritual Guide. She was asked to resign because the director of her center resigned because he thought that Geshe Kelsang was engaging in political behavior. She had apparently never said publicly that it was political behavior according to her other students, and had been at the demonstrations, but seemed to end up being a fall guy for whatever reason, karmic or otherwise. That reason is between her and Geshe Kelsang, who was most likely at least giving her food for deep thought, and Lucy herself seemed to take it as a teaching and stayed good humored throughout. Geshe Kelsang offered her the option to teach shortly afterward at a larger center, but at the time she was already doing some retreat and helping the NKT with various useful projects, or for her own reasons did not rush to take up that offer, which Geshe Kelsang accepted. For the last year she has been enjoying a long retreat with Geshe Kelsang's blessings.
I am not going to write this all over the Internet as I don't think we should intrude on her privacy further (leave that to the anti-NKT sites); but as everyone has been speculating like crazy on this thread, I thought it might be helpful to give these additional details from what I understand of the situation. Thanks.
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You know what I have learned in this thread ... "What happened to Lucy James?"
1) When we voice our comments, always think of how others feel.....
2) Present our comments or facts in a non-aggressive manner.... very important when we are posting our comments as there are many new people checking this website.
3) Be respectful to all forum members, refrain from calling each others by names.
4) It is our job as Dharma practitioners to promote peace and harmony, yes we can state the facts of the case, but we must strive not to stir up other unnecessary ill intentions.
5) Don't hold anger within oneself, it doesn't do any justice to oneself nor to the readers.
6) Have a bit of "Good" humour sometimes may be good when we are posting, especially when the tension is high.
7) Guru-disciples realtionship is a very personal matter, only those involved know the truth. In this case of Lucy James, after reading all the intensive sharings from all forum participants, my choice is that I respect both Lucy James & GKG.
8) Better not to mix politics in one's spiritual practise. Politics is an ineviatble product in this degenerated world. Just know it exists, be aware and try to stay away from it. Better put Dharma practise into actions that always benefit others.
Cheers,
Triesa
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i also saw Lucy James at the one of the nkt festivals shortly after everything had happened. Laughing and joking may i add! I can't remember which festival, seems such along time ago now. I just remember seeing her and rejoicing that she was still following Geshe-la and the tradition.
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i also saw Lucy James at the one of the nkt festivals shortly after everything had happened. Laughing and joking may i add! I can't remember which festival, seems such along time ago now. I just remember seeing her and rejoicing that she was still following Geshe-la and the tradition.
Wonderful news to rejoice in, thank you!
And goes to show, as ever, that we can never judge what is going on because there is so much between a teacher and disciple that remains sacred, known only to each other. Ultimately, our own samaya never lies and knows the "full story"
Thanks LoneRanger. I'm really very happy to hear that Lucy is doing well
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i also saw Lucy James at the one of the nkt festivals shortly after everything had happened. Laughing and joking may i add! I can't remember which festival, seems such along time ago now. I just remember seeing her and rejoicing that she was still following Geshe-la and the tradition.
Good to hear though I'm now surprised...if Lucy James wanted to smear dirt on GKG's name, she could have long time ago.NKT is huge and with with any huge organization, there has bound to be some issues. However, I rather focus and rejoice in the good that GKG and NKT has brought about through the years.
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If Lucy is being used as a pawn and it could be so, why doesn't she speak up? Why doesn't she write the opposite or ask them to remove her name from their blogsite and any reference to her so she can't be used as pawn?
If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.
I think that when the news came out and it became wide-spread over the internet, Lucy James had three options:
1. To give a public statement (or to write an official reply via the Internet) denying everything, and in hopes, try to clarify any doubts which had affected her reputation.
2. Throw a little tantrum, denounce GKG as her guru, stop being part of NKT and 'lama-hop'/'center-hop' to somewhere which accepted her, and she could start of on a clean-slate again.
[ Sounds like something T.Canada would do...*smacks mouth closed* :P ]
3. Keep quiet and take it as part of her Dharma practice.
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I think that for many of us, if someone was to say, "I heard that you did this and that at your center" or "I heard that you did this to your Lama *looks shamelessly at you*" - we would take it quite harshly and do everything and say anything to justify and defend ourselves.
We might feel picked upon and like how TM says, we might feel like we're 'being used as a pawn".
No one likes feeling victimized.
There are many times when someone has said something untrue, or blamed me for something that I had never done. My response has always been to continuously justify myself by denying everything and say, 'I didn't do it' or 'It wasn't me'. Even without saying anything, a little bit of anger arises in me, and I'm sure in all of us, it's really hard to control such a natural reaction.
How Lucy responded: by keeping quiet, continuously support her Lama and stay on as an NKT member and practitioner speaks SO much for herself. To feel like your reputation has been completely tarnished and to be publicly asked to resign as a teacher in your "spiritual home", mustn't feel too good. Imagine feeling ashamed and embarrassed that everyone gossips and talks about you over something that (perhaps) you hadn't done.
She didn't try to justify herself, she didn't try to defend herself, she didn't put up a fight and "ask them to remove her name from their blogsite and any reference to her so she can't be used as pawn".
To me, she is exemplary of how a student should be in her reaction to her Gurus words and actions: don't put up a fight, accept it and take it as your Dharma practice. After all, who knows better: me (who has spent most of my life just doing things for me, myself and I) or your Guru (who has devoted his life and vowed to bring sentient beings out of suffering and onto the path to Enlightenment)?
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Below is something that DharmaDefender quoted on the "What can we DO??" (http://bit.ly/cWFsxs) forum topic.
I thought that I should share it because it complements what I was trying to convey in my post above:
Quote
If your Guru acts in a seemingly unenlightened manner and you feel it would be hypocritical to think him a Buddha, you should remember that your own opinions are unreliable and the apparent faults you see many only be a reflection of your own deluded state of mind. Also, you should think that if your Guru acted in a completely perfect manner, he would be inaccessible and you would be unable to relate to him. It is therefore out of your Guru's great compassion that he may show apparent flaws. This is part of his use of skillful means in order for him to be able to teach you. He is mirroring your own faults; therefore check within and learn from him how to remove your shortcomings. If you are only intent on criticizing your Guru, you will never be able to benefit from him.
....there's gonna be a lot of my terrible, personal faults that my Guru will mirror!! :'( :P *braces for it!*
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Below is something that DharmaDefender quoted on the "What can we DO??" ([url]http://bit.ly/cWFsxs[/url]) forum topic.
I thought that I should share it because it complements what I was trying to convey in my post above:
Quote
If your Guru acts in a seemingly unenlightened manner and you feel it would be hypocritical to think him a Buddha, you should remember that your own opinions are unreliable and the apparent faults you see many only be a reflection of your own deluded state of mind. Also, you should think that if your Guru acted in a completely perfect manner, he would be inaccessible and you would be unable to relate to him. It is therefore out of your Guru's great compassion that he may show apparent flaws. This is part of his use of skillful means in order for him to be able to teach you. He is mirroring your own faults; therefore check within and learn from him how to remove your shortcomings. If you are only intent on criticizing your Guru, you will never be able to benefit from him.
....there's gonna be a lot of my terrible, personal faults that my Guru will mirror!! :'( :P *braces for it!*
How true what Dharmadefender said and thank you Jessicajameson for bring this up. As a vajrayana practitioner, Guru devotion is of prime essence. What inspires me most in the Lucy James issue is that after all the rumours, gossips and criticisms, Lucy appeared and attended events in her own center. She chose to remain calm and silent without affirming or denying, I think that she is a REAL dharma practitioner. Her devotion to her Guru, GKG,is undeniable.
May I always be inspired by this and constantly practise whole heartedly the 50 stanzes of duru devotion!
Cheers,
Triesa
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If the guru/disciple relationship had broken down for whatever reason, I am glad that Lucy James has not appeared to retaliate against NKT (though perhaps that is because there is nothing to retaliate against). I googled to see if there were any statements by her regarding the controversial issues - and I didn't find anything which gives me the impression that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso taught her well and she is a good Dharma practitioner.
Every Guru has his own methods to train his students. What GKG did could be a way of training Lucy James. Anyway whatever has transpired between them, is between them. I do not know about Lucy James until i read this thread, so it is not fair for me to comment much. However, I feel that Lucy is a good dharma practitioner in the sense that whatever had been said about her, she has kept quiet, has continued to support her Lama instead of bad mouthing him. I haven’t read anywhere of her talking bad against her Lama..
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Absolutely correct, every Guru has his own methods for every student. Only the Guru and Disciple will know best. After all, it is designed by the Guru for that particular disciple. Not everyone is the same and would require the same methods. We all have different issues.
In any case, I am very happy to learn that Lucy James is well and happy.
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The Lama is the terrifyingly compassionate gamester who reshuffles the deck of your carefully arranged rationale.
Ngak'chang Rinpoche, Wearing the Body of Visions
Thank you Helena for reminding me about the book, Dangerous Friend: The Teacher-Student Relationship in Vajrayana Buddhism .
I would like to quote a line from the book: The student must maintain 'pure vision' - viewing the vajra master as continuously acting for the benefit of beings, and regarding all of his or her behavior as manifestations of unceasing enlightened activity.
For Lucy James, she has to devote to GKG & trust GKG, because that is the Guru that she has chosen and he has accepted. It might seem worldly that GKG has asked Lucy James to send support for protests, but on the other hand, it is also a 'test' of devotion and trust. Who are we to say that "oh, it is just politics".
Thank you Lone ranger for sharing the info about Lucy James. I am happy to hear that Lucy is still practising under her Guru, showed that her faith has not been shaken.
Also another article the original site that is said to defame NKT (NKTWorld: http://www.nktworld.org/readmore.html)
" It seems Lucy James is trying to get back in good standing with GKG after he removed her as resident teacher. She is doing it by attacking anti-NKT web sites. She was editor for wikipedia. I have no doubt she is behind newkadampatruth.org . It seems Miss James is power hungry and will at all cost say and do anything to get her "throne" back. Let's hope she gets reinstated as RT."
I don't want to agree on the power hungry part, but good to read that she's still very much an integral part of her Guru's organisation and doing Dharma work.
I guess there's no way we can stop sites like NKT world that criticise a Buddhist organisation, in fact Kadampa has counter website like http://www.newkadampatruth.org/ to tell their version.
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Also another article the original site that is said to defame NKT (NKTWorld: [url]http://www.nktworld.org/readmore.html[/url])
" It seems Lucy James is trying to get back in good standing with GKG after he removed her as resident teacher. She is doing it by attacking anti-NKT web sites. She was editor for wikipedia. I have no doubt she is behind newkadampatruth.org . It seems Miss James is power hungry and will at all cost say and do anything to get her "throne" back. Let's hope she gets reinstated as RT."
I don't want to agree on the power hungry part, but good to read that she's still very much an integral part of her Guru's organisation and doing Dharma work.
I guess there's no way we can stop sites like NKT world that criticise a Buddhist organisation, in fact Kadampa has counter website like [url]http://www.newkadampatruth.org/[/url] to tell their version.
I prefer to view Ms. James' actions as standing up for and defending her teacher, whom she has faith and unbroken samaya in. We are very quick to point fingers at those who are in a bad light, and use them to further our point of view and we fail to recognise or ignore their good actions to further our own agenda.
Enough said about Lucy James and this entire business methinks. NKTworld's main reason for existing, seems to be to criticise a buddhist organisation and a buddhist teacher - to cause a split in the sangha. We already hold vows to refrain from such actions. And whatever their basis is for setting up such a site, there is no reason good enough to cause harm to any ordained sangha member who is one of the three jewels.
I have heard it said that in the Kalachakra texts, there is a section which states that if one is unable to continue viewing our teacher as a Buddha, due to unfortunate circumstances beyond our control, then it is permissible to quietly take one's leave and seek out another teacher whom we are able to follow, WITHOUT defaming or speaking badly against our original teacher.
That makes sense to me. If we had gained insight and attainments from our original teacher, whom we viewed as a Buddha, and then some incident occurs that prevents us from holding that view however hard we try to, then continuing under the original teacher is futile as trust and faith is no longer possible from the side of the student. We should then seek a replacement teacher in order to continue our spiritual path. But refrain from defaming our original teacher - otherwise, everything gained under the first teacher would be destroyed.
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I have heard it said that in the Kalachakra texts, there is a section which states that if one is unable to continue viewing our teacher as a Buddha, due to unfortunate circumstances beyond our control, then it is permissible to quietly take one's leave and seek out another teacher whom we are able to follow, WITHOUT defaming or speaking badly against our original teacher.
That makes sense to me. If we had gained insight and attainments from our original teacher, whom we viewed as a Buddha, and then some incident occurs that prevents us from holding that view however hard we try to, then continuing under the original teacher is futile as trust and faith is no longer possible from the side of the student. We should then seek a replacement teacher in order to continue our spiritual path. But refrain from defaming our original teacher - otherwise, everything gained under the first teacher would be destroyed.
Dulzin, Thank you for sharing this. I am also reminded of the very clear example of the Dalai Lama's relationship with his first teacher, Reting Rinpoche.
In this case, his own lama was sent to jail and executed for being involved in some political scheme. But at the same time, he was still the Dalai Lama's guru. The Dalai Lama would say that although his Guru would be in a jail downstairs, he continued to see Reting Rinpoche as his Guru during his meditations. He would meditate upon the kindness of Reting Rinpoche - who had been his first teacher, given him his vows, gone to search for his incarnation and brought him up when he was still young.
It is a very inspiring and apt example - that we can choose to let our minds be overcome by our doubts that forsake our teachers, or, as it states in the texts, to just leave quietly, without a lot of fanfare, and continue to hold a pure view of our teacher and our practice. Most importantly, is to not begin talking, criticising and bashing our Lama who we may feel has "done wrong" because it has a potentially very harmful effect on many of his other students. They may not be as discerning and may give up their practice and relationship with their teacher altogether. See, it's not just about our personal relationship with our teacher, but also how that very relationship can inspire or totally damage the guru-disciple relationship of an entire Dharma community around us.