dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: harrynephew on July 16, 2010, 11:32:23 PM
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Hey guys,
I found this really disturbing article from the controversial True Buddha School based in Taiwan and USA headed by the master Sheng-Yen Lu.
here's the story from the following link:
http://tbsn.org/english2/article.php?id=68
apart from being controversial with authentic Dharma lineage and practice, they come out with all sorts of weird stories. We have to sound it out
H1N1
Revoking One`s Dharma Power
Translated by Lotus Cheng. Edited by Luljeta Proofread by Mimosa
Once, I had a rather strange dream. I found myself flying through mountains and ridges. While ascending to the highest peak, I saw a Tibetan Rinpoche sitting on a flat platform with two lamas beside him. One of them was hoisting a banner while the other was blowing a trumpet.
I simply floated into the space above and soared freely above the Tibetan Rinpoche.
This Rinpoche asked the lamas beside him, `Who is that Chinese man?` One lama replied, `He is Living Buddha Lian-sheng, Sheng-yen Lu.` The other lama added, `Sheng-yen Lu is very famous and possesses great Dharma power. He has been to the Drepung Loseling Monastery to give a discourse on the Buddhadharma.`
The Tibetan Living Buddha paused for a while and then said, `I want to recall his Dharma power.`
After having this dream, I had another dream involving the same Tibetan Rinpoche.
The Rinpoche and I were standing on the bank of a mighty river. Turbulent rolling waters characterized this river to the point where its depth was simply beyond measure.
The buoyancy of this river was considerably poor. I saw a leaf fall into the river, and it could not stay afloat. It disappeared into the whirling water in no time. This mighty river is like a `mythical cosmic sea of low-buoyancy,` such that even a goose feather is unable to remain afloat in it.
The Tibetan Living Buddha said to me, `Sheng-yen Lu, you shall demonstrate your Dharma power and cross this river first. You are not to fly across but actually walk on the water.`
This was a test of my skill and power.
First, I visualized my lineage gurus above my head. Then, I formed the `Heavenly Water Mudra` with my hands and recited the `Water Resistance Formula`:
This ocean of no mercy
Through millenniums carried no living.
Now I shall walk across.
The massive sea is transformed into a mulberry field.
Execute this order at once. Execute this order at once. Execute this order at once.
I stepped into the water and just as I thought, the water felt like solid ground. Very soon, I reached the other shore of the river with no problem along the way at all.
Now it was the Tibetan Rinpoche`s turn. He hesitated for a moment before taking the bold steps, then finally attempted to walk on the water. Then came a sound, `Splash!` and he fell right into the water. Drenched all over, he was a total mess.
Just as the Tibetan Rinpoche was about to drown and lose his life, the Dharma Protector of the Rinpoche, a gigantic Golden-Winged Garuda came to his rescue. It caught hold of him by his collar, and lifted him and released him onto land.
The Tibetan Rinpoche felt very embarrassed. He turned towards me and said, `I will revoke your Dharma power.`
These two dreams were very unusual. During that period of time, many Tibetan Rinpoches took refuge with me. I conducted a Dharma ceremony together with His Holiness Ganden Tripa, the head of the Gelugpa Tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. I had a meeting with the Dalai Lama. I ascended the Dharma throne and expounded the Buddhadharma at the three largest Tibetan monasteries, and I was the only ethnic Chinese to be given this honor.
My reputation spreads far and wide throughout India and Tibet. Many Tibetan Rinpoches took refuge in me. One of them is Jigme Lhundup Rinpoche, who was formerly the chairman of the Sixth Assembly of Tibetan People`s Deputies of the Tibetan Government in Exile.
My photo is enshrined in the Ganden Shartse Sockpa Khangtsen Monastery, Drepung Tsawa Khangtsen Monastery, and others.
I figure this will certainly establish a deep affinity with Tibetan Tantric Buddhism. This is naturally a good thing because my lineage transmission had come from Tibet, through Guru Norras, Monk Liao Ming, Thubten Nima, Thubten Dali, Guru Thubten Taerchi, the 16th Great Karmapa, Master Sakya Chenkon and others.
But likewise, there are some drawbacks to this. Because my Dharma power and my reputation are too widespread, this results in attracting much resentment.
Of course, even Rinpoches can be disgruntled by it. I felt that the Rinpoche in my two dreams was discontented as he had repeatedly said that he wanted to recall my Dharma power. These two dreams came as a wake-up call, and appeared inauspicious.
Thus:
Without first realizing one`s Tathagata nature
Playing the role of Dharma King is but a worthless pursuit
Unenlightened, yet in this place one dwells
How could anyone ever realize True Nature
By scrambling to be the best and most powerful?
* * *
I have been cultivating Tantric Buddhism, setting up the Tantric shrine, reciting mantras, achieving yogic response by body, speech and mind, eradicating negative karma, increasing wisdom, and transforming from mortality into immortality. Such merits and spiritual powers are inconceivable.
I have received the very heart teaching that flows from the heart of Maha Vairocana Buddha as he transcends the past, the present and the future, and imparts the inner secret doctrine to Vajrasattva Bodhisattva, among others, at the Most Victorious Dharmadhatu Palace of the Akanistha Heaven.
After receiving the empowerments from many masters and acquiring the secrets of the Dharma, I expounded the Tantric teachings, founded the True Buddha School and established the mandala. Only the Buddhas can measure my achievement.
I know the great merits I have cultivated are literally unheard of in this world. As such, I am True Nature Itself.
Thus:
The four levels of secret I expound
Are very intricate and deeply profound.
The three karmas of body, speech and mind
Are transformed through the ways of Tantrayana.
How mysterious and esoteric they are.
These two dreams were clear and vividly real. As my consciousness is one and the same as the Buddha Nature itself complete, undifferentiated in nature and creating no illusion or karma, such dreams are naturally different from those of the ordinary person.
Besides dreaming, my meditation revealed an interesting vision. I found myself walking in the nether world. There was no lamp to help navigate my direction. An inner light radiating from within my heart lit the way.
In addition, three golden lamps floated above my head. These are the lights of my lineage transmissions.
Suddenly, a giant Garuda came soaring in the sky above. It dived and snatched away the three golden lamps with its beak. Fierce beasts were roaring around me and sounded extremely horrifying. Blood-curdling screams and cries were heard from many evil ghosts. What a frightening world it was.
I saw a mighty Dharma Protector, riding on a horse and wearing a straw hat. He was none other than Dorje Shugden. I was surprised. These visions came as a flash and disappeared, leaving me puzzled and confused.
Soon after, a certain Sonam Lama visited me from India and secretly told me, `There is trouble, Living Buddha Lian Sheng.`
`What trouble?`
`A Khenpo, an abbot by the name of Chod Khang Rinpoche who possesses great Dharma power and holds a high position in cultivation is going to perform a rite to recall your Dharma power.`
`Chod Khang Rinpoche?` I thought for a moment and said, `I don`t know this person.`
`You don`t know him. But he knows you.` Sonam Lama said.
`Why does he want to recall my Dharma power?` I was perplexed.
`Because you are too famous.`
`It`s not my wish to be famous.`
`Chod Khang Rinpoche feels that you have stepped onto his turf.`
`I hold no territory myself.`
`When you went to India, you did not pay him a visit!`
`At which monastery was he residing?`
`You visited Drepung Monastery and then Ganden Monastery, but you did not visit Sera Monastery. Chod Khang Rinpoche is outraged. He will surely teach you a good lesson!`
`Is not visiting him a crime?`
`Yes.`
`How powerful is this Chod Khang Rinpoche?` I asked.
Sonam Lama said, `Chod Khang Rinpoche became famous at an early age as a sorcerer in the Tibetan regions. He established his fame early on and had defeated many sorcerers. Should he cast his spell, his opponent would either die immediately from vomiting blood, or suffer from a tormenting illness. Others had fallen from their horse rides and suffered great injuries. Still others had fallen off cliffs and died, and so on.`
`That`s quite powerful!` I exclaimed.
Sonam Lama said, `To my knowledge, Chod Khang Rinpoche has two major Dharma Protectors. One of them is the most famous Dorje Shugden and the other is the Great Golden-Winged Garuda. These two great Dharma Protectors render him unrivalled.`
`Dorje Shudgen,` I remarked, `Isn`t there an order banning this cultivation?`
Sonam Lama replied, `Tibetan Buddhism has split into two factions over this controversy. One faction bans this cultivation while the other allows it. However, the practice of Dorje Shugden enables one to have great Dharma power in a relatively short time. Thus, more and more people are drawn to cultivating Dorje Shugden practice. This crisis is threatening to split up the community of Tibetan Tantric Buddhism.`
I was greatly shaken by these words from Sonam Lama, but I felt no fear because I reckoned that `A clear conscience has no room for evil.`
Sonam Lama said, `You must take precaution!`
`But how?`
`By summoning one Dharma Protector to fight against another Dharma Protector!` Sonam Lama said.
After giving me this warning, Sonam Lama left in a hurry. I took this warning from Sonam Lama very seriously because it somehow tied in with the two recent dreams I had. However, when faced with such a pressing issue, you can only stay alert and remain still and unmoved in the eye of the storm.
* * *
As expected, Dorje Shugden descended from the heaven, and this is how he appeared:
While the four hoofs of his horse step magnificently,
Unperturbed, he supports the heaven with his straw hat.
He roams freely without barriers,
Riding his horse impressively up the highest clouds.
Dorje Shugden hit the top of my head with a Vajra. If I were just an ordinary cultivator, a hit from Dorje Shugden would have crushed my head fatally, sending me to report to the Lord Yama.
However, I do keep up my practice of Dharma protection, thus Yamantaka is always by my side. Naturally, Yamantaka will appear above my head and shield me in all directions. Yamantaka appears in a wrathful form with many heads, arms and legs.
I observed the situation and realized if I had to summon Yamantaka to fight Dorje Shugden, there would be nothing wrong with it. But why let it come to this stage?
I instructed Yamantaka to step back immediately.
I willed my skull to break open into eight petals. A cracking sound was heard and my skull unfolded like a lotus in full bloom. Sitting in meditation on the lotus was Amitabha Buddha himself, manifesting all of his thirty-two major and eighty minor physical marks.
Thus:
Just as the lotus pond that reflects the moon mirrors only Emptiness
And the bamboo forest seems to sing as the wind blows across it
How many cultivators living on Earth
Have mistakenly thought Amitabha resides on another mountain peak?
When Dorje Shugden realized it was none other than the Amitabha Tathagatha himself in all his compassion and radiance, blossoming like a single lotus in the lotus kingdom, he quickly withdrew his Vajra, held his palms together in respect and left.
Thus, a battle was averted.
At first, I assumed that when Dorje Shugden left, this matter would close. Yet, there was more to it that met the eyes.
Normally, whenever I cultivated and chanted the Invocation Mantra:
`Om Sobawa Suda Sarva Dharma Sobawa Sudo Han.`
And added,
`Om Ah Hum Svaha`
The deities that I invoked would manifest themselves. Now, they were nowhere to be found. There was not a trace of wind or shadow, nothing. I felt very strange. It seemed that my mantra power had disappeared.
So, I summoned the presence of the most fundamental?he Earth Gods of the four directions:
`Namo Samanta Buddanam Om Duru Duru Devi Svaha.`
I formed a mudra with my hands and stamped my foot on the ground. Usually, the Earth Gods of the four directions would immediately appear. Yet, this time they did not show up. It seemed that my chanting had fell on deaf ears and was not working at all. It was as good as not reciting the mantra at all. I was really worried. My Dharma power had disappeared. Feeling like a punctured leather ball, I could not effectively express my power.
Usually, as I made my offering and recited the Elixir (or Nectar) Mantra:
`Namo Surupaya Tathagataya Tadyatha Om Suru Suru Prasuru Prasuru Svaha.`
As I would sprinkle the nectar, spiritual beings would gather to receive the offering. Yet none came. The water was simply water and not the elixir it should have been.
Now this was serious! The Food Transformation Mantra that I had recited was also ineffective. My attempts to summon any deity were futile. Chanting and empowering the Great Compassion Dharani Water did not work. No matter what mantra I chanted, none of them worked. I had indeed lost all my power. Losing all the power of mantra meant that I was no better than an ordinary mortal being. That was scary.
I thought about my ability of seeking divination through my fingers, as I wanted to find the cause of this predicament. I extended my hand and prayed to the gods who were passing by to give me some directions. How strange! My fingers did not dance and quiver. Without the spiritual current, I cannot get a divination, as this type of divination requires that the fingers bend automatically. If they don`t, then I cannot predict!
I looked up at the sky above. The sky being the sky was all empty. Then it occurred to me that the three golden lamps above my head were nowhere to be seen. These three golden lamps are the symbolic manifestation of my lineage transmission empowerment. How could they have disappeared?
Then it occurred to me that while I was facing Dorje Shugden, the Great Golden Winged Garuda secretly stole away the lamps. This occurrence tied in with my dreams. I realized that once the power of lineage transmission was gone, no mantra could ever work.
The book, Doctrinal Essentials of Tantrayana states, `The Tantric School arises from divine wisdom realized by the Buddha and transmitted directly to the mortals of this Saha or human world. Tantric cultivators receive a surge in spiritual strength and gain inconceivable power. However, Tantrayana emphasizes heavily on the lineage transmission power and anyone who wishes to cultivate must enter into the Great Mandala and receive the empowerment from a Vajra Master. Only then he shall have the power of the lineage transmission. Without this power of lineage transmission, all mantras will be void, rendering all practices as acts of embezzlement.`
It also says, `The lineage transmission power is the single most important fundamental in Tantric practice. It comes from the cosmic universe and awakens the very wisdom that lies within the heart. This is the root wisdom of the Tantric lineage transmission.`
In order to regain my Dharma power, I realized I had to get back my three golden lamps. This meant I had to face Chod Khang Rinpoche. I felt that this Chod Khang Rinpoche was really powerful, and my character is such that I do not really want to reveal my Personal Deity to demand the return of my three golden lamps.
Fortunately, I am a Tantric lineage holder and I am well aware of secrets beyond all secrets. Even though the three golden lamps had been stolen, I would still be able to light up the three golden lamps again. I can simply manifest immeasurable numbers of these three golden lamps.
The Dharani Sutra of the Great Wheel(Mahachakra) Vajra says, `Recite this mantra twenty one times and you shall achieve success in all mantra cultivation. All virtuous deeds shall find accomplishment swiftly. This mantra also helps complete the attainment of all mudra practices. In all mandala practices, one enters the great mandala shrine without the need of an actual shrine.`
The Sutra of Collection of Dharani states, `Recite this mantra for three or seven times, and one shall gain entrance into any mandala and attain all accomplishments. Body mudra, among other mudra exercises, may accompany mantra recitation. If a hand mudra is formed while reciting a mantra, it would be easier to obtain results. If one has not entered the shrine of empowerment, one cannot form any hand mudra. However, when one recites this mantra, it is equivalent to entering the Tantric shrine. Forming a mudra for practice would not be viewed as an embezzlement of the Dharma.`
The Great Tibetan Essential Tantra states, `According to the Dharma, all mantras and mudras must be transmitted by the guru. Prior to entering the empowerment shrine, forming any mudra for any practice constitutes as an act of Dharma embezzlement. All of one`s practice will yield no results. However, if one recites this mantra twenty one times before the statue of Tathagata, it would be as good as seeing the Buddha himself and entering into all mandalas. All Dharma requested for practice will gain success and attainment.`
I immediately reviewed the Great Wheel Vajra Mantra and visualized all my lineage transmission masters above me transforming into the three golden lamps.
I recited the Great Wheel Vajra Mantra:
`Namo Sitriya Tivikanam Tathagatanam Om Viraji Viraji Mahachakra Vajri Sada Sada Sarati Sarati Dariyi Dariyi Vidamani Sambajani Tramati Siddha Griya Deram Svaha`
I recited this mantra twenty one times. I looked up and saw not only three, but many uncountable glittering golden lamps, forming a string of vajra chain.
The current was reconnected, and I unleashed the highest force of Dharma power.
The golden lamps above emit a thousand rays.
From the light, lotus upon lotus springs and hovers.
All Dharma power is filled and complete?
Sparkling like pearls, shining as exquisite as jade.
It was said that Chod Khang Rinpoche found that the three golden lamps he stole from me through the Great Golden-Winged Garuda suddenly hovered into the sky and vanished.
Chod Khang Rinpoche invoked Dorje Shugden, but Dorje Shugden ignored him and refused to be summoned.
Chod Khang Rinpoche`s face turned black; his vital energy weakened. As a result, he fell sick three times and had to struggle with lingering illnesses ever since. He became a wretched old man.
Chod Khang Rinpoche told people, `You can challenge any sorcerer except Living Buddha Lian-sheng, Sheng-yen Lu. His Dharma power is simply inconceivable. After losing his three golden lamps, he was able to manifest thousands of golden lamps.`
What I really want to say is that I did not cast any spell on Chod Khang Rinpoche. I actually did nothing at all.
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Good lord... he should be a children's fantasy story writer....
I googled him and found that he has a huge following... and he declared himself as a living Buddha. Amazing what people can say and get away with. I don't really care what he declares himself to be but i am not happy that he says that Dorje Shugden folded his hands in respect to him?????
Om mani peme hung.
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First of all, it was really hard to read this article and take it seriously…”disturbing” is too mild a description. Nevertheless, it was necessary to read the entire writing to determine what the writer INTENDS to create with this information.
My summary is: self-promotion. From the beginning to the end, it is like a narrated fairy tale of a super hero who cannot be beaten because he has so much super powers.
From my understanding, a true Dharma practitioner is always humble and will never insinuate possession of any ability above other sentient beings. In fact, they always view themselves to be inferior to all sentient beings (practicing the 8 verse of mind transformation). In this article, not only did Sheng-yen Lu express his mastery of the Dharma and abilities to communicate with the Buddhas, he did it in a rather blatant manner: describing every detail. Even Lama Tsongkapa who communicated with Buddha Manjushri did not proclaim this openly! This article is a scorn to the secrecy of tantric practice.
To imagine that Yamantaka would “engage in battle” with Dorje Shugden completely insult the basic fundamentals of Buddhadharma. Oh my Buddha!!!! It is painful to read such material is created around the subject of pure Dharma.
On another point brought up, Dharma is inside our mind, no one can take that away. If the Buddha cannot clean out our negative karma and give us Dharma realizations, attainments and enlightenment. It is unlikely that Buddha can cause the negative karma that enables other to have the power to remove our “Dharma power”. If the Buddha, cannot do that, who else can?! Only and solely our own karma which is caused by our own actions.
I sincerely hope that this is a huge misunderstanding and that someone ignorant and malicious out there wrote it to with the intention to defame a popular Dharma teacher. If it is really written or permitted to be written by Sheng-yen Lu himself, it should act as a warning to pure Dharma practitioners everywhere.
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Shugden Protect, you're absolutely right that Dharma should be about humility. Tsongkhapa embodied this beautifully and even banned his followers from showing off 'magical powers'. Unfortunately, in our degenerate age, people are often attracted to 'magical powers' and hope for miracles rather than Dharma practice. This article is everything which is contrary to Tsongkhapa's teachings.
The article came from the "True Buddha School Net" and seems to be a translation of a 'teaching' given by master Lu.
In the spirit of this website's mandate of not slandering other teachers, i shall not say more but hope that whoever follows this teacher, they will meet the essence of the real Dharma and practise it.
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Shugden Protect, you're absolutely right that Dharma should be about humility. Tsongkhapa embodied this beautifully and even banned his followers from showing off 'magical powers'. Unfortunately, in our degenerate age, people are often attracted to 'magical powers' and hope for miracles rather than Dharma practice. This article is everything which is contrary to Tsongkhapa's teachings.
The article came from the "True Buddha School Net" and seems to be a translation of a 'teaching' given by master Lu.
In the spirit of this website's mandate of not slandering other teachers, i shall not say more but hope that whoever follows this teacher, they will meet the essence of the real Dharma and practise it.
Test them on Dharma instructions, it is guaranteed that you will laugh till your teeth drop!
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This doesn't sound any more far fetched than a comic book or some other things mentioned on this website. Plus doesn't this go against the mission of this website that is invoked daily now: "Please do not post anything negative about any lamas, sects, deities or anyone."
Trinley Kelsang
YOU are not allowed to point out blatant hypocracy here, you will experience "the shunning."
be careful.......
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I have heard of this school of Buddhism - apparently it is quite big and has commanded very large followings from around Asia in particular. I must admit that I am quite doubtful of these "stories" and am a little skeptical of any person who talks openly of his dreams, visions and attainments (This being not part of Gelugpa practices or Je Tsongkhapa's lineage of teachings).
I would also, however, be cautious of passing judgment too quickly. If indeed this master is bringing benefit to people and they are beginning a spiritual path because of him, then all the power to them. As I have repeatedly said in recent weeks, it is more helpful to share advice with other practitioners as to the ways in which we can be assured of a safe, beneficial and effective practice, than to merely judge, criticise or talk about what their teachers are doing wrong.
As WisdomBeing said, there are many people these days who are drawn to miracles - so perhaps this is again, a method that first connects these people to the real teachings. I am not sure of the teachings that this Master gives so I can't really comment much further on whether his methods are right or not. Perhaps these proclamations of dreams etc are just one facet of his teaching methods, that lead to something else...
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As Kyabje Dagom Rionpoche stated very clearly, It matter not what rank or titles we claim. Unless we are Practicing the Dharma, we are not anything.
Well said! The most inspiring Lamas are, conversely, the ones who have always said that they are just simple monks with no attainments (when you know in fact, they've got a truckload of them!)
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Perhaps this Master is trying to reach some audience that is way beyond our own minds' abiltiy to grasp. Then again, I remember clearly someone rebuking me saying that no dharma is better than contaminated Dharma. Now, where is that friend lately?
Frankly, it sounds like an April Fool's joke. What a minute, it isn't April!
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Well, I'm delighted that Buddha Garuda was given a major role in the story.
He is often given a very minor part - totally unfair as Garuda is a really powerful and useful Buddha! ;)
As for the story itself, it reads like the transcription of a dream by a self-obsessed poseur. ;)
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I have heard of this school of Buddhism - apparently it is quite big and has commanded very large followings from around Asia in particular. I must admit that I am quite doubtful of these "stories" and am a little skeptical of any person who talks openly of his dreams, visions and attainments (This being not part of Gelugpa practices or Je Tsongkhapa's lineage of teachings).
I would also, however, be cautious of passing judgment too quickly. If indeed this master is bringing benefit to people and they are beginning a spiritual path because of him, then all the power to them. As I have repeatedly said in recent weeks, it is more helpful to share advice with other practitioners as to the ways in which we can be assured of a safe, beneficial and effective practice, than to merely judge, criticise or talk about what their teachers are doing wrong.
As WisdomBeing said, there are many people these days who are drawn to miracles - so perhaps this is again, a method that first connects these people to the real teachings. I am not sure of the teachings that this Master gives so I can't really comment much further on whether his methods are right or not. Perhaps these proclamations of dreams etc are just one facet of his teaching methods, that lead to something else...
Agreed re passing judgment too quickly, which i did in my earlier post. Who am I to comment really. Even though this article is contrary to Tsongkhapa's principles, the tone of my previous post was implicitly arrogant so i do apologise to the forum.
An interesting realisation that this forum is a perfect place for practice because it allows me to watch my monkey mind as it gleefully thinks it is so smart.
Thanks Rach, for the timely reminder ;)
lots of love
Kate
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I would also, however, be cautious of passing judgment too quickly. If indeed this master is bringing benefit to people and they are beginning a spiritual path because of him, then all the power to them. As I have repeatedly said in recent weeks, it is more helpful to share advice with other practitioners as to the ways in which we can be assured of a safe, beneficial and effective practice, than to merely judge, criticise or talk about what their teachers are doing wrong.
Dear Dakini,
You may look at their most recent Dharma talk on emptiness under this link and there are many others too. You can distinguish whether this Teacher is teaching the right thing or the wrong ones?
http://tbsn.org/english2/talk.php?id=190&classid=17&page=0&keyword=
<quote by Master Lu:
Buddha is sentient beings; upon enlightenment, sentient beings are Buddha.......
Practicing Buddhism is to concentrate on being like Buddha. There is no hindrance. Six Patriarch said, examine your self-nature, find the intrinsically pure mind, then you are enlightened. Accumulating knowledge may not lead you to enlightenment. More knowledge might actually create more karmic obstacles. >
If anyone has been to Lam Rim or Madhyamaka classes are able to detect the flaws within this type of sentence. I will not further comment on about TBSN. You guys are not aware of happenings in South East Asia...
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<quote by Master Lu:
Buddha is sentient beings; upon enlightenment, sentient beings are Buddha.......
Practicing Buddhism is to concentrate on being like Buddha. There is no hindrance. Six Patriarch said, examine your self-nature, find the intrinsically pure mind, then you are enlightened. Accumulating knowledge may not lead you to enlightenment. More knowledge might actually create more karmic obstacles. >
If anyone has been to Lam Rim or Madhyamaka classes are able to detect the flaws within this type of sentence. I will not further comment on about TBSN. You guys are not aware of happenings in South East Asia...
Lightning,
I'd be interested to know what the flaws are that you detect within this quote. This is not a trick question because honestly, when I read this paragraph, I take a lot of goodness from this and I actually find that much of it can be related to the teachings of the Lamrim. I'd like to know what you find is so wrong or misleading about it.
Also, I do think it's quite dangerous to just take paragraphs out like this and quote them as a stand-alone excerpt; we may be taking it completely out of context from the larger teaching and the meaning within that excerpt alone many not be the intended meaning of the entire teaching.
Anyway, do share your thoughts (everyone else too). I'm interested to know how people might read or interpret this quote.
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<quote by Master Lu:
Virtuous and knowledgeable friend, not enlightened, Buddha is sentient beings; upon enlightenment, sentient beings are Buddha. Since all dharma is immanent in the self-nature, why not from within suddenly see the Tathata? The Buddha Precepts Sutra mentions, \`Our essence of mind is intrinsically pure, if we knew our mind and grasped self-nature, all would attain Buddhahood.\` The Jing Ming (Pure Name) Sutra mentions, \`The instant of awakening, restores self mind.\` .......
Practicing Buddhism is to concentrate on being like Buddha. There is no hindrance. Six Patriarch said, examine your self-nature, find the intrinsically pure mind, then you are enlightened. Accumulating knowledge may not lead you to enlightenment. More knowledge might actually create more karmic obstacles. >
If anyone has been to Lam Rim or Madhyamaka classes are able to detect the flaws within this type of sentence. I will not further comment on about TBSN. You guys are not aware of happenings in South East Asia...
Lightning,
I'd be interested to know what the flaws are that you detect within this quote. This is not a trick question because honestly, when I read this paragraph, I take a lot of goodness from this and I actually find that much of it can be related to the teachings of the Lamrim. I'd like to know what you find is so wrong or misleading about it.
Also, I do think it's quite dangerous to just take paragraphs out like this and quote them as a stand-alone excerpt; we may be taking it completely out of context from the larger teaching and the meaning within that excerpt alone many not be the intended meaning of the entire teaching.
Anyway, do share your thoughts (everyone else too). I'm interested to know how people might read or interpret this quote.
<quote by Master Lu:
Buddha is sentient beings; upon enlightenment, sentient beings are Buddha.......
Practicing Buddhism is to concentrate on being like Buddha. There is no hindrance. Six Patriarch said, examine your self-nature, find the intrinsically pure mind, then you are enlightened. Accumulating knowledge may not lead you to enlightenment. More knowledge might actually create more karmic obstacles. >
Dear Dakini,
Before sharing, I would to know what are you agreeing to what was quoted earlier. Please kindly state your reasoning for supporting the above Dharma views in your best abilities, before I provide my answers. Regards,
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<quote by Master Lu:
Buddha is sentient beings; upon enlightenment, sentient beings are Buddha.......
Practicing Buddhism is to concentrate on being like Buddha. There is no hindrance. Six Patriarch said, examine your self-nature, find the intrinsically pure mind, then you are enlightened. Accumulating knowledge may not lead you to enlightenment. More knowledge might actually create more karmic obstacles. >
Dear Dakini,
Before sharing, I would to know what are you agreeing to what was quoted earlier. Please kindly state your reasoning for supporting the above Dharma views in your best abilities, before I provide my answers. Regards,
Dear Lightning,
I'm just curious - why do you need to hear the reasoning before providing your answers? This is a forum for discussion, not a test. If Dakini has the wrong reasoning, are you wanting to hear it and condemn it before you share your 'right' view? If Dakini has right reasoning, then you will agree with her?
Sorry - i just don't see the point why you have to wait for her to respond before you share. Please just share :)
Love
Kate
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<quote by Master Lu:
Buddha is sentient beings; upon enlightenment, sentient beings are Buddha.......
Practicing Buddhism is to concentrate on being like Buddha. There is no hindrance. Six Patriarch said, examine your self-nature, find the intrinsically pure mind, then you are enlightened. Accumulating knowledge may not lead you to enlightenment. More knowledge might actually create more karmic obstacles. >
Dear Dakini,
Before sharing, I would to know what are you agreeing to what was quoted earlier. Please kindly state your reasoning for supporting the above Dharma views in your best abilities, before I provide my answers. Regards,
Dear Lightning,
I'm just curious - why do you need to hear the reasoning before providing your answers? This is a forum for discussion, not a test. If Dakini has the wrong reasoning, are you wanting to hear it and condemn it before you share your 'right' view? If Dakini has right reasoning, then you will agree with her?
Sorry - i just don't see the point why you have to wait for her to respond before you share. Please just share :)
Love
Kate
Alright just to share...I may not have a prefect answer but I have better ones. Correct me if I am wrong, I am still learning, I am explaining in my best knowledge ...
1) A Budhha (Supramudane) cannot be a sentient Being (Mudane) , A sentient being cannot be a Buddha. A male cannot be a female and a male cannot be female. Before attainment of Buddhahood, the practitioner is a Bodhisattva (path of seeing and above). therefore sentient beings cannot be Buddha upon enlightenment? If Buddha is sentient beings, then everyone should be enlightened, then why are we still in samsara?
2) If accumlating knowledge can be a cause for karmic obstacles, then we do not need to learn about the 3 kayas of Buddha. Buddha is all knowing, we need to get rid of the ignorance in order to attain enlightenment? Sit there and mediate like stone? We need samadhi and vipassana to be on the right track. We also need to aquire from the guidance of a qualified spiritual guide.
3) If we examine our self nature to be intrinsically pure, then we gain enlightenment? If our self nature is intrinsically pure. One day if we become attain intrinsically pure to become enlighten again. Then can we be inpure again and what is there for us to attain enlightenment for?
The above views was very far fetched, if you have some background in Madiyamaka topic, you should be able to agree what i pointed out that there is flaw in the above Dharma view. btw I am a nice guy, i won't condemn her, just interested why she agreed to Master Lu's view?
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I actually enjoyed the story of Master Lu and Dorje Shugden. I love the fantastic scenes and the way he describes Dorje Shugden. However, I found the story inconsistent. At times Master Lu sounds accomplished and at times, he sounds like a comic hero. How can one's realisation and samaya with one's lineage masters be taken physically away by another being? ie The Garuda.... Isn't one's Samaya with one's Guru determined by one's action of body, speech and mind? Sorry, that was my huge gripe about the whole story.
On the point of Master Lu's quote, Buddha's do have the ability to emanate as sentient beings. They do not need to be practicing Buddhism or act in the conventional sense of how a Buddha should act. Hence, in the scriptures and prayers, the Buddhas can emanate as ghosts, men, women.... the Dalai Lama and..... even Master Lu. Don't be so quick to judge his fantastic story because he is actually benefitting a huge group of people in his own way.
Learning for just learning's sake can be detrimental because it is just knowledge. If knowledge is put into practice, then it becomes realisation and wisdom. Hence, there are many Geshes who know a lot through a whole lifetime of religious learning but go to hell because they don't practice what they learn.
Just my 5 cents worth...
Big Uncle
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I actually enjoyed the story of Master Lu and Dorje Shugden. I love the fantastic scenes and the way he describes Dorje Shugden. However, I found the story inconsistent. At times Master Lu sounds accomplished and at times, he sounds like a comic hero. How can one's realisation and samaya with one's lineage masters be taken physically away by another being? ie The Garuda.... Isn't one's Samaya with one's Guru determined by one's action of body, speech and mind? Sorry, that was my huge gripe about the whole story.
On the point of Master Lu's quote, Buddha's do have the ability to emanate as sentient beings. They do not need to be practicing Buddhism or act in the conventional sense of how a Buddha should act. Hence, in the scriptures and prayers, the Buddhas can emanate as ghosts, men, women.... the Dalai Lama and..... even Master Lu. Don't be so quick to judge his fantastic story because he is actually benefitting a huge group of people in his own way.
Learning for just learning's sake can be detrimental because it is just knowledge. If knowledge is put into practice, then it becomes realisation and wisdom. Hence, there are many Geshes who know a lot through a whole lifetime of religious learning but go to hell because they don't practice what they learn.
Just my 5 cents worth...
Big Uncle
Dear Big Uncle,
when a Buddha emanate as a ghost, an animal or mad man or anything else in order to lead sentient beings He must be able to explain the 3 Kaya of Buddha without flaws. if not how do we distinguish, He is the real deal? From the way one speaks, one can discern the standard of one's learning and wisdom.
Benefiting the sentient beings with wisdom or misleading sentient beings with wrong views are two opposites.You are right that Buddha is beyond practicing as They attain enlightenment, but Buddha like Je Tsong Kha Pa can appear to practice Buddhism from start to set an example for the sentient beings on how to practice. But why follow the "Buddha" who appear to teach the wrong view and obscure our path to enlightenment. How to differentiate whether a spritual guide is authentic or just another heretic, It is by distinguishing the teachings through sharp reasoning.
If learning is detrimental, then do you think you can awakened to Buddha hood by yourself without learning. As taught in LamRim, we must learn, contemplate and put to learning to practise, If one is not taught how to fish with a rod. Do you think he can catch fish with a fishing rod? Knowledge can make a difference!
Is there any Buddha who is ignorant?
My 2 cents worth...
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Dear HoneyDakini,
Thank you for showing me the "other" way of looking at things. You are right, there are so many sentient beings who have varying needs. Therefore, the kind Gurus have continuously adapted themselves to utilize methods that best penetrate our deluded minds.
Great Gurus have appeared controversial and "crazy" in the past such as the book by John Riley. On hindsight, for each of these compassionate Masters, we know that they did all those "crazy" things to benefit their students. Because these Gurus do not have an ego, they do not consider how others think of them but focus fully on what the student or sentient beings require of them.
Before ending, I humble thank all participants because your sincere comments are in itself a rich well of Dharma information, sharing and experience!
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Great Gurus have appeared controversial and "crazy" in the past such as the book by John Riley. On hindsight, for each of these compassionate Masters, we know that they did all those "crazy" things to benefit their students. Because these Gurus do not have an ego, they do not consider how others think of them but focus fully on what the student or sentient beings require of them.
Speaking of controversial lamas, I think a group who have done well to explain the 'crazy' methods of a lama are Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche's followers, when they did Words of My Perfect Teacher. Having said that, do you think Master Lu's story could've just been a mistranslation of sorts? Because I've just read Singa Rinpoche's biography (http://www.singaclub.tw/en/about302.aspx) and well, the English is interesting, to say the least.
On the point of Master Lu's quote, Buddha's do have the ability to emanate as sentient beings. They do not need to be practicing Buddhism or act in the conventional sense of how a Buddha should act. Hence, in the scriptures and prayers, the Buddhas can emanate as ghosts, men, women.... the Dalai Lama and..... even Master Lu. Don't be so quick to judge his fantastic story because he is actually benefitting a huge group of people in his own way.
"How a Buddha should act"...is there any way a Buddha SHOULD act? Just by pigeon-holing them, don't we limit the methods they can use on us to cut through our delusions? We expect so much from our lamas - they should do this, they should be able to explain that, they should behave in this way - and our lamas expect so little of us (I say that relatively speaking, since mind transformation isn't easy when you're faced with lifetimes of delusions).
And as you've shown, 'emanate' refers to their physical body only, and not their mental state. These beings are inherently Buddhas since enlightenment is an unchanging state - the physical body will manifest in whatever way best suits the student. So in the case of Rinpoches and lamas and masters, they are still Buddhas, regardless of their outward appearance. So to some extent, it doesn't matter what a Buddha physically emanates as. They can be the most perfect lamas but then there are stories about perfect lamas going away from the Dharma because their students have poor samaya, or the lamas weren't nurtured properly by their students / attendants.
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"How a Buddha should act"...is there any way a Buddha SHOULD act? Just by pigeon-holing them, don't we limit the methods they can use on us to cut through our delusions? We expect so much from our lamas - they should do this, they should be able to explain that, they should behave in this way - and our lamas expect so little of us (I say that relatively speaking, since mind transformation isn't easy when you're faced with lifetimes of delusions).
And as you've shown, 'emanate' refers to their physical body only, and not their mental state. These beings are inherently Buddhas since enlightenment is an unchanging state - the physical body will manifest in whatever way best suits the student. So in the case of Rinpoches and lamas and masters, they are still Buddhas, regardless of their outward appearance. So to some extent, it doesn't matter what a Buddha physically emanates as. They can be the most perfect lamas but then there are stories about perfect lamas going away from the Dharma because their students have poor samaya, or the lamas weren't nurtured properly by their students / attendants.
Yes - we are all so deluded, how do we judge? i know some people say we can examine but I'd just like to refer to one of Dorje Shugden's earliest incarnations as the Mahasidda Birwapa, whose name was literally 'bad man' because he was seen to have broken his vows by cavorting with women when in truth, he was being visited by Vajrayogini and her dakinis. To those without attainments, these holy deities appeared as ordinary women, therefore since we - or most of us - do not have attainments, how can we trust our own judgment? Especially of Lamas or Dharma teachers.
If we personally do not agree with a teacher's methods, we simply do not have to follow the teacher. It is not necessary to criticise the teacher because we really don't know for sure and he or she may be benefiting others. If we were to criticise a Lama because of our wrong view, we would end up accruing negative karma for ourselves. I think i have enough negative karma to last me quite a bit so i don't really need to add to it :)
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Dear lightning,
these are my thoughts
1) A Budhha (Supramudane) cannot be a sentient Being (Mudane) , A sentient being cannot be a Buddha. A male cannot be a female and a male cannot be female. Before attainment of Buddhahood, the practitioner is a Bodhisattva (path of seeing and above). therefore sentient beings cannot be Buddha upon enlightenment? If Buddha is sentient beings, then everyone should be enlightened, then why are we still in samsara?
Buddhas can emanate as sentient beings, and are subject to many of the limitations of the form they choose to emanate. eg Dromo Geshe Rinpoche is an emanation of Tsongkapa yet has to eat, sleep etc.
2) If accumlating knowledge can be a cause for karmic obstacles, then we do not need to learn about the 3 kayas of Buddha. Buddha is all knowing, we need to get rid of the ignorance in order to attain enlightenment? Sit there and mediate like stone? We need samadhi and vipassana to be on the right track. We also need to aquire from the guidance of a qualified spiritual guide.
Knowledge alone can be a cause for karmic obstacles because without practice and realisation, knowledge may just lead to arrogance, superiority and larger ego. Only when knowledge is applied, then does it lead us to enlightenment
3) If we examine our self nature to be intrinsically pure, then we gain enlightenment? If our self nature is intrinsically pure. One day if we become attain intrinsically pure to become enlighten again. Then can we be inpure again and what is there for us to attain enlightenment for?
Our self nature IS intrinsically pure, that is why we all have the capability to become Buddhas ourselves. Its just that we have so much negative karma and bad habituations that we lose touch of our pure nature which is selflessness and end up being very selfish and egotistical always. And once we have attained that state of inner purity which is Buddhahood, there is no going back.
So with the main topic of this thread which is Master Lu - I don't agree with the logic of his story - attainments once gained cannot be taken away, and even more so if he is a living buddha. And I definitely don't agree with how Dorje Shugden is portrayed as a mundane protector or even a worldly spirit. If he is a truly a living-Buddha, then his actions will be for a greater good and are pure in motivation, however strange it may appear to our untrained eye. But with all respect, I will choose a different teacher whose teachings can be examined by logic and debate, and with less elements of mysticism within.
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Dear lighting,
I don't think you understood me or what some of us here are saying. Knowledge is not bad or good! It is how we use it. If knowledge is just acquired like some art piece, just to be admired then it is detrimental. Why is it detrimental? It is bad because how can we admire Buddha's teachings and gain enlightenment by just admiring it? Buddha's teachings are meant to be practiced so we should acquire knowledge of Buddha's teachings so we can apply. There is a huge difference between the two.
On the topic of emanations of Buddhas, how do we know that they are emanations? We can't ascertain ourselves but if you look at the actions of these emanations, it will always result in benefit. They don't need to be able to explain the 3 kayas....well Buddhas can even emanate as non-Buddhist and propagate love and compassion through action like Mother Teresa. Her actions was clearly Bodhisattva-like although she has never taken the vows of one nor even believe in the Buddha. Her actions reveals her state of mind and like that we have a rough guide.
I hope I am clearer this time around.
Big Uncle
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Dear lighting,
I don't think you understood me or what some of us here are saying. Knowledge is not bad or good! It is how we use it. If knowledge is just acquired like some art piece, just to be admired then it is detrimental. Why is it detrimental? It is bad because how can we admire Buddha's teachings and gain enlightenment by just admiring it? Buddha's teachings are meant to be practiced so we should acquire knowledge of Buddha's teachings so we can apply. There is a huge difference between the two.
Lovely sharing, Big Uncle. In the UK, i find that there is a group of spiritual seekers who are very well read, scholastic, and good at debate. However, for them, it is more of an intellectual exercise rather than an application of the teachings. Yes there is a huge difference. I've met some wonderful people who couldn't quote one sutra from another but fantastic in their compassion for others.
On the topic of emanations of Buddhas, how do we know that they are emanations? We can't ascertain ourselves but if you look at the actions of these emanations, it will always result in benefit. They don't need to be able to explain the 3 kayas....well Buddhas can even emanate as non-Buddhist and propagate love and compassion through action like Mother Teresa. Her actions was clearly Bodhisattva-like although she has never taken the vows of one nor even believe in the Buddha. Her actions reveals her state of mind and like that we have a rough guide.
Buddhas definitely can emanate as non-Buddhists. There is no limit to a Buddha's abilities. I think Jesus was a Buddha too :)
I hope I am clearer this time around.
Big Uncle
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Dreams, visions, mysticism exists in pretty much every religion/faith that I've come across. I've learnt to stay neutral, not sure if it's a good or a bad thing. From my personal observation, people tend to find it easier to believe miracles which happened long ago. Anyway, best way to judge the tree is by its fruits.
May we meet the perfect dharma and holy masters in each and every lifetime until we achieve freedom from all delusions..
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Big Uncle, I am curious why you think Jesus was a Buddha?
Christianity is as portrayed as an Open Arms Approach
Whereas the Buddha portays his approach in the Lotus Position.
A Christian might pull you back from an approaching bus
A Buddhist might let you step off the curb
It's you karma!
Make any general sense?
As the Dalia Lama stated"We brought the dharma to them
Not they to us
I do not care" if they stand on their heads and walk with their hands
We brought the dharma to them."
Whereas Jesus might have said, Go forth and spread the good word
I agreed that Jesus is not a Buddha. Do not mistake a crystal for a diamond, ulitimately, if we want to learn Buddhism, we need to choose a spritual guide who can really lead us to supramundane attainments(path of seeing), not be misleaded into staying longer in samsara. I am kinda of busy this 2 days, will give my input soon. As mentioned from, one's speech, we can roughly gauge one's understanding in Buddha Dharma. Duldizin has something in common with me, can discern some wisdom from his speech. but I still have something to debate on his points provided.
Aside to Big Uncle, may I ask you? How can you confirm and tell apart whether a person is a real emanated Buddha or a layman?
Aside to Wisdom Being and everyone else, you may share your understanding of how to tell apart too.
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Dear TC and lighting,
Perhaps my point was not clear, I said perhaps Mother Teresa not Jesus or whomever.... is a Bodhisattva. I say that based on her actions and results of her actions. If only we had an ounce of her compassion, we would progress so much on our own spiritual paths. If you say Buddhas and Bodhisattvas can only emanate and benefit only by teaching Buddhism, you limit their capability to benefit others into a box. Why a box? Not all beings have the karma to receive teachings. Hence, Buddhas and Bodhisattvas will even emanate as great teachers of other religions to benefit those beings who don't have the karma.
I know you may not agree with me but I still hold strongly that they are able to do this to bring a certain group of beings to spiritual maturity. Remember, it takes quite a lot of merit to receive and understand Buddha's teachings and even more so to practice Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings. If Buddhas can emanate as bridges, spirits, demons, men, women and children, why not a holy being, saint etc of another religion.
As for differentiating an emanation from an ordinary person is not about how... it is about do we have the wisdom and clarity to perceive the qualities of that being. If we do not have the wisdom, we don't judge or make assumptions. Hence, even if we do not agree with Master Lu's teachings and stories, we don't be so quick to judge because he does have millions of followers.
There must be something that he is doing that is benefitting them. Perhaps these people need his style of teaching to develop faith in the Buddha. Since he can benefit so many, isn't he more beneficial than most of us here who benefit only a handful and some of us can hardly benefit ourselves. At the end, I don't have the wisdom to judge either so I am not saying he is definitely an emanation and that he is a Buddha or benefitting these people but I am saying the possibility is there. Don't you think?
Big Uncle
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Sorry, I've been away for a few days, but here's my reply below:
<quote by Master Lu:
Buddha is sentient beings; upon enlightenment, sentient beings are Buddha.......
Practicing Buddhism is to concentrate on being like Buddha. There is no hindrance. Six Patriarch said, examine your self-nature, find the intrinsically pure mind, then you are enlightened. Accumulating knowledge may not lead you to enlightenment. More knowledge might actually create more karmic obstacles. >
If anyone has been to Lam Rim or Madhyamaka classes are able to detect the flaws within this type of sentence. I will not further comment on about TBSN. You guys are not aware of happenings in South East Asia...
I think that much of the confusion can arise from the simple problem of semantics and language. This is also why I think it is important to understand the full context of the teaching and to consider many other contributing factors, such as the teacher's style of speaking, language barriers, translations etc.
My understanding is as follows:
Buddha is sentient beings; upon enlightenment, sentient beings are Buddha.......
I take this to mean that all sentient beings have the potential to be enlightened and contain within them Buddha nature. Upon attaining full enlightenment sentient beings too become Buddhas - it is not we are here forever as samsara as sentient beings and the Buddhas are "up there" in a far away place that we can never attain. I take this sentence to mean that every single sentient being can attain the fully enlightened state of mind, thereby becoming a Buddha.
Practicing Buddhism is to concentrate on being like Buddha.
This is very much like the higher tantric practices on the Yidams, where we focus on the qualities of the Buddhas and strive to develop and embody those enlightened qualities also. In these practices, we identify with the Buddhas and strive to become one with them - this naturally "spills" over even in our daily, mundane activities, where we practice and focus on embodying these enlightened qualities in every aspect of our thought, speech and mind.Ultimately, we are striving to become Buddhas ourselves and therefore, "concentrate on being like the Buddha", adopting his qualities.
examine your self-nature, find the intrinsically pure mind, then you are enlightened
the intrinsic nature of our mind is one of purity and great clarity. It is only by many lifetimes of delusions that his pure, clear mind has become clouded over and covered. It is like a clear lake, which has become "polluted" and dirtied over the years by rubbish and pollution. Ultimately, the nature of the water itself is still clear and pure. In the same way, if we can uncover this intrinsically pure mind - by removing our delusions and obscurations - and begin to live by it, we begin to identify with and awake the intrinsically pure nature of our mind: the Buddhanature within every one of us which can bring us to full enlightenment.
Accumulating knowledge may not lead you to enlightenment.More knowledge might actually create more karmic obstacles
For sure knowledge alone cannot lead us to enlightenment. think of all the hundreds of scholars out there who study and write volumes of books about Buddhism who are still not enlightened. There are universities who have entire degrees dedicated to the study of Buddhist philosophy and many, many academics who dedicate their whole lives to Buddhist philosophy. They have probably more knowledge of the Buddhist texts than many of us here, but for them, it remains purely an academic exercise. They are not enlightened by it. Knowledge remains only as knowledge if we don't put it into practice, and that too will be lost when we die.
More than that, knowledge can definitely also create more karmic obstacles for us. Instead of being a tool for us to become better people, practise and gain attainments, having more knowledge can actually just make us more arrogant and proud. We think, "I have more knowledge than you, I am better than you" and become puffed up with pride. Our egos and self-cherishing mind becomes even greater. We may even use the knowledge to put others down, or use it decetifully to cover our lies, deception, laziness, or use it for selfish gains (such as to get more money, fame, power). In this way, the knowledge doesn't help us at all in our spiritual path; it just makes our egos and selfishness bigger, which is opposite to everything we're trying to achieve in our spiritual practice!
This is my interpretation of this passage of teaching (I am not commenting on the whole thread that was posted by Harry Nephew; only this passage in isolation as quoted by Lightning).
Like I said before, I take it to be a positive teaching that is not at all contradictory to the Buddha's teachings. I'd be interested to know if, after having considered this interpretation, you still think that these teachings are flawed and wrong?
I don't mean to be arrogant or challenging, but am sincerely interested to understand why you are quite quick to regard these teachings as flawed? It's worrying to me to hear how people are quick to criticise teachers and their teachings, instead of trying to understand them first or clear their doubts. So I'd like to know why you'd see these teachings as flawed?
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Hi All, ultimately the bottomline is that we have to reconginesd who is truly a spiritual guide who can really lead us to enlightenment. I am trying to point out that from the Dharma instructions expounded, we can distinguish whether this spiritual guide deserves to be followed. Buddha can manifest in many forms, He may appear not explain the 3 Kaya of Buddha but He must know 3 kaya. Upon tested, He must be able to explain such teachings effortless without contradictions.
I know personally about the background of this Master, that is why I picked up some of the quotes. In hoping that anyone with strong Lam Rim or Madiyamaka background able to see what I discern.
Dulzin is able to perceive what I am seeing. Honey Dakini is able to produce excellent explanation to back up her ground, but did not see what I have pointed out. I felt that the statement from this spiritual guide is bizarre and misleading. He is trying to advertise his spiritual power to attract ignorant followers and using the "big" name like Yamantaka, Dorje Shugden etc. to show how mighty he is. The surest way to find out whether He is the real deal is by quoting his statement and let us examine whether it displays the essence of all Sutras and all Buddha's teachings, Whether he is able to explain the essence of 3 Buddha kaya properly.
It is important that the spiritual guide should have for lineage tracing back to the Buddha (original source). As the teachings are passed down orally without flaws in understanding the underlying meanings to Buddha's Dharma instructions from Buddha Shakyamuni down to all the lineage masters till our generation. These authentic teachings are the password to the meaning as expounded on the sutras or Lamrim etc. From receiving this type of oral instructions from qualified spiritual guide, then only there will be hope in reaching supramundane attainments. No one can ever guessed these underlying instructions without "passwords" handed down from the lineage masters.
Nowadays, there are people who claim themselves to be Buddhists without even truly understand about taking refuge to triple gem. Understanding about triple gem is not as simple as what many think. Do you really think that we should take refuge in All Buddhas, All Dharma and All Sangha, then you have been greatly mistaken! Because there are a lot of "dissecting process" to understand Buddha Dharma. For example, when we talk about taking refuge to Sangha. It does not mean taking refuge to all the monks, but it means to take refuge to the Enlightened beings who have attained the path of seeing and above (Arhats, Bodhisattvas). To mistaken into taking refuge to all Dharma is also wrong, Because we cannot take refuge in evil Dharma etc. Understanding these teachings may throw some into confusion and takes time to absorb.
Human beings consist of man and woman. Man cannot be a woman, because they are opposite. Man cannot be human beings because there are woman, (This is taught within Madiyamaka topic)
Therefore Buddha cannot be Sentient Beings, because there are sentient beings that have not attain complete enlightenment like Bodhisattvas, Arhats and unenlightened humans etc. I have to add that Jesus is like Buddha as both have compassion, but the biggest difference is that Buddha is stainless and complete, stainless from mental and all knowing obscuration and complete in 3 Buddha Kayas and 5 Dhyani Buddha wisdom, whereas Jesus do not have such attainment. In comparison with both teachings, we can see the difference. From here, we can see that Jesus is not the manifestation of Buddha.
Similarly, we cannot mistake compassion as Bodhicitta, as Bodhicitta's magnitude is so much stronger than compassion. If we have Bodhicitta, we have compassion.
Buddha and enlightenment beings can manifest murder, mad man, prostitute etc. He can even display great magical power to attract Dharma followers or whatever suitable methods to tame sentient beings. But ulitmately from the Dharma instructions given, one can almost straight away recongised whether He is an enlightened being and qualified spiritual guide.
Anyway thanks to honey dakini, Big Uncle, Dulzin and many others for replying
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<quote by Master Lu:
Buddha is sentient beings; upon enlightenment, sentient beings are Buddha.......
Practicing Buddhism is to concentrate on being like Buddha. There is no hindrance. Six Patriarch said, examine your self-nature, find the intrinsically pure mind, then you are enlightened. Accumulating knowledge may not lead you to enlightenment. More knowledge might actually create more karmic obstacles. >
If anyone has been to Lam Rim or Madhyamaka classes are able to detect the flaws within this type of sentence. I will not further comment on about TBSN. You guys are not aware of happenings in South East Asia...
<I think that much of the confusion can arise from the simple problem of semantics and language. This is also why I think it is important to understand the full context of the teaching and to consider many other contributing factors, such as the teacher's style of speaking, language barriers, translations etc. >
I agreed to your above statement.
My understanding is as follows:
Buddha is sentient beings; upon enlightenment, sentient beings are Buddha.......
Buddha is not sentient beings because there are those who are not fully enlightened, If Sentient beings are Buddhas, we are completely enlightened! why do we need to pick up Buddhism? Sentient beings have the potential to become Buddhas (like matches can light up fire). But that does not match the point that sentient beings are Buddhas.
Practicing Buddhism is to concentrate on being like Buddha.
At least this quote seems logical, but concentrate on being like Buddha seems funny. But Honey Dakini provides valid explanation.
examine your self-nature, find the intrinsically pure mind, then you are enlightened
the intrinsic nature of our mind is one of purity and great clarity. if it is pure originally that meant we were enlightened originally and if we attain enlightenment, we may one day revert back to unenlightened state. Similarly if a pearl was originally clean and after sometimes it becomes dusty. After cleaning it becomes bright again and later it will become dusty again. We will be forever wiping that pearl????
Our mind is neither pure or inpure, our mind can hold either good or bad thoughts, not both at the same time. What we are purifying is our negative karma. From my understanding, there is a more complete view to perceiving emptiness, that is the Nagajurna or Chandrakriti's view of emptiness, which provides better explanations (sorry I can't explain due to my mingle learnings and understanding of the topic)
Accumulating knowledge may not lead you to enlightenment.More knowledge might actually create more karmic obstacles
From his statement, I would interpret that he is trying to discourage accumulating of knowledge, though I agreed that accumulating knowledge may not lead you to enlightenment. This is a bizarre view and incomplete statement which will mislead countless people who would follow him.
From my understanding we need to accumulate knowledge that leads us to full enlightenment such as how to practise Bodhicitta, correct view of perceiving of emptiness, learning how to reach samadhi and vipassana etc. Accumulating such knowledge that lead us to supramundane attainments has more benefits than disadvantages. Only those who accumulate such knowledge for own gain will become obscuration to their advancement. Overall it is better to have such knowledge. In lam Rim, we are encouraged to learn, contemplate and put into practice. Not to discourage learning
I know that you are worried as i am, but my point is that one should examine and able to differentiate truth or fake from Dharma instructions, even by quoting some points out.
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Dear TC and lighting,
I know you may not agree with me but I still hold strongly that they are able to do this to bring a certain group of beings to spiritual maturity. Remember, it takes quite a lot of merit to receive and understand Buddha's teachings and even more so to practice Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings. If Buddhas can emanate as bridges, spirits, demons, men, women and children, why not a holy being, saint etc of another religion.
There must be something that he is doing that is benefitting them. Perhaps these people need his style of teaching to develop faith in the Buddha. Since he can benefit so many, isn't he more beneficial than most of us here who benefit only a handful and some of us can hardly benefit ourselves. At the end, I don't have the wisdom to judge either so I am not saying he is definitely an emanation and that he is a Buddha or benefitting these people but I am saying the possibility is there. Don't you think?
Big Uncle
I am pointing to the incomplete part of his teachings. From the completeness of the teachings, is the spiritual guide deserve us to follow? I agreed that Buddha may manifest any possible ways, but let us not to mistaken crystal as a diamond.
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Dear lightning,
So with the main topic of this thread which is Master Lu - I don't agree with the logic of his story - attainments once gained cannot be taken away, and even more so if he is a living buddha. And I definitely don't agree with how Dorje Shugden is portrayed as a mundane protector or even a worldly spirit. If he is a truly a living-Buddha, then his actions will be for a greater good and are pure in motivation, however strange it may appear to our untrained eye. But with all respect, I will choose a different teacher whose teachings can be examined by logic and debate, and with less elements of mysticism within.
I also agreed that teachings is examined by logic and debate ulitmately.
Attainment of path of seeing and above is irreversible, as one will be free from samsara forever and will never be revert as a normal layman. But worldly sidhhis maybe removed, for example from Lam Rim, there is a student who floated above his guru and started to develope haughty thoughts that he is better than his Guru. At that instant, he lose his ability to float in air and fell to his death.
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Dear TC and lighting,
I know you may not agree with me but I still hold strongly that they are able to do this to bring a certain group of beings to spiritual maturity. Remember, it takes quite a lot of merit to receive and understand Buddha's teachings and even more so to practice Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings. If Buddhas can emanate as bridges, spirits, demons, men, women and children, why not a holy being, saint etc of another religion.
There must be something that he is doing that is benefitting them. Perhaps these people need his style of teaching to develop faith in the Buddha. Since he can benefit so many, isn't he more beneficial than most of us here who benefit only a handful and some of us can hardly benefit ourselves. At the end, I don't have the wisdom to judge either so I am not saying he is definitely an emanation and that he is a Buddha or benefitting these people but I am saying the possibility is there. Don't you think?
Big Uncle
I am pointing to the incomplete part of his teachings. From the completeness of the teachings, is the spiritual guide deserve us to follow? I agreed that Buddha may manifest any possible ways, but let us not to mistaken crystal as a diamond.
In other words, you agree with me... Glad to know that because a 'complete' teaching for you is completely inaccessible for some people while teachings on emptiness that brings realisation of emptiness according to Nagarjuna's view is still incomprehensible to you or to me. Hence, what am I saying? There are other styles and methods of teachings but that doesn't make them any less complete or any less real because ultimately, it is helping a group of people and our style and method is helping us. That was my point. Hope that didn't make things more complicated here...
Big Uncle
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Who is He and what do I agree bu?
"There must be something that he is doing that is benefitting them."
The teachers of other methods and ways and "don't you think" is just a figure of speech.
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It is important that the spiritual guide should have for lineage tracing back to the Buddha (original source). As the teachings are passed down orally without flaws in understanding the underlying meanings to Buddha's Dharma instructions from Buddha Shakyamuni down to all the lineage masters till our generation. These authentic teachings are the password to the meaning as expounded on the sutras or Lamrim etc. From receiving this type of oral instructions from qualified spiritual guide, then only there will be hope in reaching supramundane attainments. No one can ever guessed these underlying instructions without "passwords" handed down from the lineage masters.
This is an excellent point. I won't go back to debating the quote from Master Lu as I have already explained my reasons and understanding for why I think it is a valid teaching but this point about being able to trace our lineage is most key to any of our practices. I agree with you there lightning - at the heart of every single teaching, our teachers should be able to tell us where they got their teachings from, so that the teachings can be traced all the way back via an authentic unbroken lineage.
I also agree with you on the point that spiritual teachers should not be boasting about their spiritual powers, attainments, visions etc as that is so much not in line with the buddhist teachings on humility. The real power of a teaching comes in the whole lineage of blessings that comes before it, that is traced back to shakyamuni who is fully enlightened and an object of refuge; power doesn't come from just one individual claiming this because who will believe that? and how can we ever prove it?
To me, I think the best miracles, powers and attainments I have ever seen in my own lama is his kindness. All the other supernatural stuff - flying in the sky, controlling weather, seeing things - can be attained even be lesser beings, through black magic and sorcery and the like. Kindness isn't something we can just magic out of the air. And all this kindness that our teacher shows us finds its basis in the teachings of the lamrim, a totally solid, sound foundation with a very traceable lineage.
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It is dangerous when teachings have no lineage, then there is no verification of a reliable source. Then how can attainments arise? The lineage from a reliable source ensures that there will be results, i.e. real attainments when we follow the teachings/path.
However, there are many methods and several lineages out there - all available for the different individuals. As long as they are authentic, then the individuals who follow them will gain attainments. So, for every single person, there would be a path that's best suited for him or her. And to each, his/her own.
Who am I to judge?
As long as there are real results, I would say that it is authentic and beneficial.
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Thank you Lighting , Duldzin , Big uncle, HoneyDakini,etc for very good debates and explanations. This is really fulfilling the purpose of this forum which is to debate,share resources and knowledge so that we become better Buddhists and people. I can see the postings here are very sincere and genuinely with intention to benefit.
I like Lighting's statement that ' We are not pure or impure....' This is consistent with what I learned from my Lama that we are a mixture of good, bad and neutral karma.Sakyamuni discovered that we can remove the bad ones,like hydrogen from oxygen, thus attaining a pure mind.
I find the Buddhist model above,( I remembered Master Sheng Yen also said this in a talk many years back.) most acceptable compared with the Christian view that ' Man are born sinners' or the Confucian view that 'Man are fundamentally pure/virtuous' because I can experience the three states of mind and my daily actions influenced by them.
It should also address the question asked by many as to when or how we ' first' lost our pure mind to ignorance.
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Wisdom Being, I agree with you. Ways that are outside of our fixed beliefs are the best to cut through our delusions and ego. Our minds have a funny way of “playing games with us” and it is quite amazing to notice how our minds react to information or situations that are not aligned to our expectation.
For example, when I first read this article, I quickly came to a conclusion that Master Lu is certainly a “bad” teacher. However, reading other comments, I noticed that my reaction is created by a mind that have been molded into a certain response-pattern from years of habituation. This reminds me of a teaching I heard about re-habituation: changing the habits of our minds so that we go beyond limits that we have set upon ourselves.
One of the tools I have been blessed to come across is the teaching on the 8 verse of mind transformation by Langro Tangpa. Geshe Kelsang Gyatson wrote a commentary on these verses in his book “8 steps to happiness”.
In this situation, had I applied the second verse of mind transformation (Whenever I associate with others, May I view myself as the lowest of all; And with a perfect intention, May I cherish others as supreme), arrogance and judgment that causes and enhances ignorance could be avoided.
Once again, I thank the participants of this forum and the Dharma for always presenting an opportunity to learn and grow through constructive input and sharing.
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There are very clear scriptures and teachings that give us very clear guidance as to the qualities of a teacher that we should look out for when we check the teacher. We don’t simply get taken in by someone because they are charismatic or have a big following or are famous. It states clearly in the 50 Verses of Guru Devotion for example,
“In order for the words of honour of neither the Guru nor the disciple to degenerate, there must be a mutual examination beforehand (to determine if each can) brave a Guru-disciple relationship.
A disciple with sense should not accept as his Guru someone who lacks compassion or who is angersome, vicious or arrogant, possessive, undisciplined or boasts of his knowledge.
A Guru should be stable in his actions, cultivated in his speech, wise, patient and honest. He should neither conceal his shortcomings, nor pretend to possess qualities he lacks. He should be an expert in the meanings of tantra and in its ritual procedures of medicine and turning back obstacles. Also he should have loving compassion and a complete knowledge of the scriptures.
He should have full experience in both ten fields, skill in the drawing of mandalas, full knowledge of how to explain the tantras, supreme faith and his senses fully under control.”
There are many very clear teachings which give further commentaries on this such as Alexander Berzin’s book Relating to a Spiritual Teacher or Gurus for Hire, Enlightenment for Sale, by Tsem Tulku Rinpoche. They are very clear and logical points to consider – much like a process of checking out the qualifications of a doctor or a teacher.
And it is not just to check him as a person, but his teachings – where do they come from? His lineage? Where he received these teachings from? These are all factors to consider so we don’t end up in a relationship that could be harmful or which we lose faith in quickly.
Many people get themselves into trouble because they don’t check what they are getting themselves into. This is why the teachings so clearly state that the process of checking a teacher beforehand is of utmost importance. It is to protect ourselves if nothing else. Sometimes, it may not even be that the teacher is unqualified. It could just be the simple fact that you don’t “click” with this teacher or have that particular affinity. Still, you would need to check things out to see if you could really learn from this teacher or not – either way, the process of checking is very clear and important.
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Hi HoneyDakini,
Thanks for your above further clarification for the rest of the newbie, who are in search for spritual path.