dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: a friend on July 01, 2010, 04:08:32 AM
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Well, the Forum is back.
As unexpectedly as it was gone.
I thank you dear friend Administrator for bringing the Forum back. But please, don't close it again! And also, I'm sure that many would be very happy if you could participate in the discussions. If you prefer not to do it, it would be very useful that you be so kind as to give some rules that are explicit. We do have the old advice of the Forum: We promote and value HARMONY. Please do not post anything negative about any lamas, sects, deities or anyone. But the word "negative" is quite general and can have any number of connotations. It would be useful for everybody to know what exactly made you close the Forum and to state which are the things that you are not ready to tolerate in the future.
About the Guestbook, I ask the writers of several pages of insults, many of whom are not even members of the Forum, what is the gain of hatred? What is the gain of judging actions that you don't understand?
I'm sorry Mohani for the spate of hatred that you received for your innocent and sensible action of creating another Forum. They should've rejoiced for one more space where people can talk about our Deity. Instead of that they called you and others thiefs and traitors !!!
Do you know the meaning of those words? This is quite typical. To accuse the innocent while ...
But better to stop here. Anyway, I guess that we will have to start afresh. Yeah, the sowers of hatred are my best Mahayana teachers, thank you for reminding me that in the unaccountable beginningless life times I surely did onto others what you did onto us ...
But still, next time at least try to find out what's going on before starting to throw stones.
I love you all.
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Dear Friend, I think we reserve the right to exercise our judgement based on what Mohani and gang wanted to do. I do not find it ethical at all. I do not believe I cast an unfair stone. I am merely expressing my dislike for their means and ways. So, I have taken the liberty to re-post what you wrote to Samayatree. So, please read and follow your own advice and allow others to exercise theirs. I believe everyone stated very clearly why they did not approve of what Mohani and gang wanted to do. It can't be that everyone has the same feeling. I could be wrong and a whole lot of others could be wrong, then you alone would be right, I guess. In any case, I am simply stating "I am not a fan".
Thank you and I sincerely hope that you do love us all. That would be comforting to know.
Much care and happiness to you.
(your own post to samayatree)
Dear Samayatree, you don't need to be enlightened to judge. Actually you are required to judge, all the time. Required as a practitioner. You need to ponder and judge actions and results following the advice of Lord Buddha. This is the basis of the Buddhadharma. The matter that is exclusive object of the Buddha's mind is the actual results of karma in every one and all beings, the intricacy of that extraordinary "computer" where no action is lost ... that, yes, only an enlightened mind can follow.
But you, like all of us, need to judge the Lamas, particularly if you are thinking of taking them as "your" Lama. This is a requirement.
And by implication one needs to be clear in the judgement of somebody who can become the Lama of new people seeking Dharma. They will need also to judge the candidate. So if you are not a fan of the DL's ways and means say it, and in a logical, clear Dharma way, in accord with conventional reality, stating your good Dharma reasons for your "not being a fan".
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Thanks.
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Dear a friend,
Thank you for moderating this forum, I have been observing during the past few days when the forum is closed and I would like to share my opinion:
As a moderator, I request you to refrain from differentiating between the oldies and the newbies, both can contribute equally well to the forum so there shouldn't be such differentiation.
Also, you have to stop siding with people you are in contact with, or your friends in forum. A moderator should be unbiased, then you will gain even more authority and respect as a moderator.
thanks.
thaimonk
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Dear Thaimonk,
The only moderation I do consists on deleting posts from electronic intruders. I do not moderate what people say in the Forum (with the exception of Thom, but I don't do it as moderator, simply as a friend).
All the rest I post is my opinion.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity, though, to expand on the oldies and newbies matter. It's a fact that this Forum radically changed when we had in January a flock of new people all sharing a common view: that the views of the older people of this Forum was wrong, and theirs, right. Since this is a debatable question, no problem, it has been debated and will continue to be debated.
Together with the new blood that should be always welcome came a new element, though, or a collection of new elements, that many cannot appreciate because they were not here before, and the gist of the matter consists precisely in the difference between old and new.
Today emotions run high, reasons are taken as insults, some judge the practice of others based on their participation on the Forum, for the first time people gang up many against one person ... And just right now, in the last few hours, in the post just close to yours, people dare judge the ethics of the Forum participants. This never, ever happened before. Heavens know that we had heated discussions in the past, even outbursts of anger, which are natural. But never such tensions nor hostility. The old Forum was a better place to "live" in. The secret is that we were all friends, I guess.
Since we didn’t insult members of the Forum, since we didn’t gang up against a member of the Forum, since we didn’t judge the ethics of a member of the Forum, since it didn’t occur to us to judge the religious practice of a member of the Forum, then what’s left? That the new majority of the members of this Forum (with happy few exceptions) dislikes our views.
To dislike the views of others is not the best of feelings, it produces all of the above. It’s preferable to disagree and to give reasons. This constant turning debatable matters into personal fights it’s tiresome, sterile and is giving this new athmosphere of hostility and suspicion that I truly regret because it does not benefit anybody. This Forum used to be a gem. I would like the new people to enjoy that same athmosphere that we had before, relaxed, friendly, and very interesting because we were constantly debating different and opposed points of view.
So this is all it is about oldies and newbies. It’s not about different views, it’s about a different way to be together.
Now, I don’t wish just to point to problems without giving a solution.
This is a difficult thing to do, because of course all of those that fit the description above are going to be angry with me, and it’s understandable. And it's a well known fact that younger people don't like to be given unsolicited advice by old people like me. I just beg you to forgive me the pointing out of the differences, it’s just this once and I do it not to defy anybody, just to try to create a new awareness that will make our relationships here more pleasant.
The only “recipe” that occurs to me is to try to establish a rule: LET’S ONLY GIVE OPINIONS ABOUT THE VIEWS OF OTHERS, WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT THE PERSON EXPRESSING THE VIEW. Like for instance, let’s say that I disagree with Loneranger about the brochures. In this case I should talk only about the brochures, not about Loneranger. Not telling him you’re wrong, or you’re not enthousiast enough, or you don’t truly love the Protector, etc. Instead, “the brochures are good for such and such reasons, and to oppose them, even if it’s anybody’s right, might harm for such and such reasons”. Something like that.
I love you all.
Dear newbies, I love you all, and I wish we could become friends.
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Dear A Friend, you have always been very eloquent and articulate, as seen very clearly from the way you write your posts. From reading your posts, you do seem to carry a 'high quality' heart, for the lack of a better word. But adverse reactions do not arise from no where. There cannot be smoke without fire, and it is not just from one person. There are many comments. I shall not waste anyone's time to go into what's right or not right and I shall not recount what sparked this whole deluge of remarks - it is not worth the space this precious website/forum is created for. If you are truly sincere as you say and do love us all, then please do show just that. If you do, it will be FELT BY ALL - NOT JUST NEWBIES OR OLDIES. IT WOULD BE THE SAME EFFECT FELT BY ALL. As always, I really appreciate words that help me understand more and words that challenge me to seek higher knowledge - but not just cleverly crafted words just to challenge people or to merely justify just how right and wonderful a person is or is not. Those gifted with the power to use words, should use that gift to create more harmony and more understanding with love for all - equanimity. You have that gift, and that is a beautiful gift. Let's hope your love truly shines through your every word. I have no intention to offend you in any way with mine. I hope that you take it as advice from a friend. Thank you.
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There cannot be smoke without fire, and it is not just from one person. There are many comments.
Precisely, precisely. This is what we never did before. Gang up against other members of the Forum.
I wish people would stop doing that, going against other persons.
Love cannot be felt by all ... if this were true, then we all in all worlds would fall to our knees feeling the incomparable love that the Buddhas have for us sentient beings.
So before people become mature enough to "feel" the love of others, whether from the Buddhas or from ordinary beings, I suggest that we follow some rules. Like the one I suggest, that we only discuss views and not go against people.
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That is a good start - let's discuss the topics and share more info on the topics and also, PLEASE REFRAIN from teaching people how to write or speak in a clear logical manner. Are we holding a writing class here or what? Be a real friend and use your knowledge to build understanding and friendship. We need that and you have the gift of speech. So, please. Thank you.
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teaching people how to write or speak in a clear logical manner
:D :D :D
This is a new one. First time I've been accused of trying to be an English teacher.
Anyway, it's true that in general I try to convince people that they should use Dharma logic, it does not matter good or bad English. My Lamas didn't speak perfect English but their logic was razor like sharp.
Logic is the backbone of our lineage. Two of the Six Ornaments are logicians. Actually two have the title of logicians, but you certainly can count more than two among them. This clearly points to the unavoidable need to use Dharma logic.
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:) I respect your wealth of knowledge, for sure, and now, I am beginning to appreciate your sense of humour. I hope I have found a new friend in here, at last :)
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I forgot to add - please do share how you use Dharma Logic - I'd like that very much. Especially when you are going to show me your case against HH DL. I'd like to see the different perspectives presented through Dharma Logic. Thanking you in advance. :)
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I'll try to do that.
Can I suggest that you read some book on Logic?
Kadampas, please, what's the name of Geshela's book on Logic?
Samayatree, let me look for titles, I can't do it while I write here. I'll be back with them.
Of course you have found a friend here ... didn't you see my name? :D
Hey, no joking, of course I am your friend.
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No worries, A Friend. About spreading the concept of friendship in here, I think when you loosen up like this, everybody can feel your friendship vibes. Not joking either. Let's spread the LOVE and hopefully, it can go all the way to Dharamsala TGIE! I am going to be logging off soon but if you don't mind, please start a new thread whereby we can all learn about Dharma Logic. I believe this will benefit many, not just me. THANK YOU and have a lovely day or evening or night - wherever you are! :D
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Dear all,
You know what, I am just happy that the forum is back on. Thank you Admin for your quick action!
Having said that, I am equally disappointed that the closure of this forum for such a short period of time can create so much back stabbing against each other. Now I think we must move on, if you have supported this forum before and like what was being discussed, then now is the time to express your views again.
Even though I am quite new here in the forum, I still believe, as I have stated in the guest book, that we should exercise patience and support during hiccups,this is very important. Even if it may happen again, I will still adhere to the same principle.
This forum is to share our dear lord Dorje Shugden to the world, to clear his name and to promote his practice to benefit more people who may chance on the website.
So lets start practising the qualities that Dorje Shugden would like us to be!!!
with folded hands,
Triesa
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I love you all.
Dear newbies, I love you all, and I wish we could become friends.
Dear A Friend
It would be wonderful for everyone in this forum to become friends. And I wish to extend my appreciation for the years of sharing and how much knowledge you have deposited into this forum. Well, one thing for sure is everyone in this forum LOVES the forum and especially King Dorje Shugden. Thinking about this warms my heart...that people from all walks of life congregates in this online debate hall almost daily! Pretty amazing I should say..
wishing you well always
DSFriend
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Thanks friend, that was kind.
aF
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It's a fact that this Forum radically changed when we had in January a flock of new people all sharing a common view: that the views of the older people of this Forum was wrong, and theirs, right. Since this is a debatable question, no problem, it has been debated and will continue to be debated.
Together with the new blood that should be always welcome came a new element, though, or a collection of new elements, that many cannot appreciate because they were not here before, and the gist of the matter consists precisely in the difference between old and new.
Dear a friend,
Forum will always change because the flock of new people (like me in January) are now semi-oldbies and there are more newbies coming in.
New people who join perhaps lack the insight compared to old-bies like you, TK, trinleykelsang, Thom and many other seniors who has the experience and this platform for discussion/ debate for a long time. Hence, I would like to request you to always encourage others to be open, so that newbies will feel that this forum is a learning ground, and not a debate court to be "pinned down" by seniors who knows much more.
I thank you for your friendly posts and I do hope this forum continues to serve the Shugden community well.
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From Vajraprotector
so that newbies will feel that this forum is a learning ground, and not a debate court to be "pinned down" by seniors who knows much more.
Thank you for bringing that up. One way or another this seems to be a hurtful point for some newoldies. ;)
I'm scratching my head right now. How to go about this one?
Because this is a type of lay people debate ground. This is what we have been doing a good part of the time before you all came: debating.
Also sharing information, pictures, asking others for advice ... and being alert to lend a hand to the victims when the DL's persecution becomes more active or produces new victims. This for us is a huge activity, no doubt by nature intermittent, but very very important. I would have liked to see some more activity last week, when we alerted about Jampa in Nepal, for instance. But with very few exceptions I didn't see much reaction. This type of activity does not require much knowledge and it would create a link between us, a non negligible benefit, like a bonus on top of the obvious necessity of helping that monk.
So I cannot promise not to debate (particularly that main subject 8) that has our opinions divided) but I sincerely don't think that to debate should be offensive. It doesn't matter who knows more or less. It does matter to avoid hatred, personal attacks, offended feelings about views. It's not easy but not impossible. At least not for you, I don't perceive that hatred is a big propensity.
So what do you think about the rule that I would like us all to adopt, that when debating only refer to the views and not to the people holding the views?
I thank you for the friendly post and share in your hopes about the Forum.
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whereby we can all learn about Dharma Logic.
Dear Samayatree,
This is the book that I would recommend right now about Logic. LIKE A HEART SO DEARLY NEEDED FOR LIBERATION. http://www.mstp.us/Books/HeartSoDearly.php (http://www.mstp.us/Books/HeartSoDearly.php)
It's not an official manual of logic, it applies Dharma logic directly to the basic knowledges that we need to start the path. It's such a great book, so uplifting!
Let me quote from their presentation:
Indeed, what is the heart of the path? The logical mind. By proving that Buddha is a perfect refuge, that past and future lives exist, and that liberation and enlightenment are truly possible for us, we can tread the path surefooted, with confidence, not as followers of blind faith, but as accomplished followers of reason.
If sometime you have the opportunity to get it and read it you will enjoy a wonderful cup of the sweet nectar of Dharma.
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when debating only refer to the views and not to the people holding the views?
I thank you for the friendly post and share in your hopes about the Forum.
Dear A Friend,
you really a true friend! Thank you for all your views.
I like your suggestion VERY MUCH that we are debating the points and not the people. In some cases, it may also be that we are commenting on the tone used in the forum in the event that it begins to become unfriendly, hurtful or when people are making it an unpleasant atmosphere to post in. This again is not meant as an attack on the person, but on their delivery and approach in debating and talking to each other.
I don't think anyone has any deliberate intention of hurting each other or that it has ever been a case that it is a personal attack against anyone. Actually, if we look at the little "feuds" or what seem like "arguments", it is actually just proof of how much everyone on this forum really is passionate and cares about our protector and wanting to protect the slanderous views and judgements against him and the Lamas in recent years. At the bottom if it all, we do love each other very much, especially as we are all still here, talking to each other, sharing views, debating and learning from each other!
I urge all to take on this approach to debate views and not get personal - this would be the best way for creating a friendly, safe and nurturing environment for learning. Thanks a Friend!
Rachel
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Hello Folks,
I wanted to say thank you to people here. The last couple of days I have been feeling pretty uncomfortable, I felt sad about what people had been saying about me. I have felt scared to post on here. But it has helped me to look in my mind to see that the pain is coming from attatchment to my reputation and wanting people to like me, so I needn't be scared to post on here, because I know I have not done anything wrong and that I have acted from love. If people feel I have and they see me as a problem then that is their negative mind and I am sorry to have acted as a condition for that, but then maybe it has helped them to identify the enemy within their mind.
I have always been happy to help people on this forum with anything I can, and I will continue to do so.
May mara be destroyed by the swift and wrathful Dorje Shugden.
Love,
Mohani.x
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Dear afriend and samayatree,
Geshe-la book that covers Logic is ' Understanding the Mind', There is an explanation about Syllogistic reasoning in the chapter on Inferential Cognizers. It is a fantastic book, out of this world.
Also people here might be interested in this, I came across it a couple of years ago when surfing:
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Dear everyone - especially to Mohani, A Friend and Samayatree,
Firstly, I would like to express my deepest and sincere apologies. I must admit when I first read about how some people wanted to open a mirror site and just abandoned ship like that, so easily - it sparked a defense mechanism within me. As it stands, DS practitioners are already getting bullied in all ways. So, I felt much incensed by how our own members would seemingly do the same. Having said all that, I realise these are just my own perceptions. Whether they are right or wrong, I cannot say. I have no right to say. Whether they themselves understand what they are doing and what their real motivation is, I am also not in a position to judge. As our main practice is always loving kindness, I felt most ashamed that I displayed none of it. As I logged in and read all the posts - especially the conversations between A Friend and Samayatree and how they resovled their differences and ended up friendship, it truly moved me. In addition, when I read Mohani's own post - it brought tears to my eyes. I am sure it is not easy for Mohani to do this. I know it would not be easy for me, personally, if I were Mohani. But I have gained faith and respect in the members of this Forum due to what has happened recently. Sometimes we ourselves may not know how well our sincere intent may be received. Some of us may not even realise whether our intent is sincere or genuine in the first place as well. After much reflection on my own shameful actions, and the kind actions of others in this Forum - my belief and faith in this Forum are deeply reinforced. This website and Forum not only share a treasure of valuable information but it brings people to a higher understanding of one another, and of ourselves. And that is truly amazingly beautiful to me.
I had to re-value my own thoughts and feelings as well. Perhaps this is similiar to what is happening in Dharamsala & TGIE - HH DL may have his own plans in doing what he does with DS - but the ways in which the TGIE has executed those policies have been too extreme. Some may have been over-ruled by their own highly defensive emotions, some may be over-ruled by their own desires for more power and money and some may be just plain confused and are swept by the whole TIDE OF THINGS. Hence, there is a real difference between those who execute and those who issues a statement or policy, or those who want to do something important but the sincerity of the intent is not understood, or even appreciated. So much misunderstanding can arise from it, as can be exemplified by what happened in here. This is just a mirror to our outside world.
It is vry clear to me that I know very little and understand very little. Above all, it is so important that we begin everything with compassion so that we can end with compassion.
I can safely say that no one here is bad or has any ill intent. So many people – oldies or newbies have taken the time to post things and share so much meaningful information and have enriched us all. This Forum is great because of everyone’s collective efforts and dedication to share more. And that is what I truly value most of all.
So, once again, I am deeply sorry to have caused anyone, any grief or discomfort in any which way or form. And I humbly request that we all remember how valuable this Forum this and how important all of us are to this Forum. We are the ones who make this Forum special, every input and every word we put in here – may it all be drenched with loving kindness, and the true motivation to help others understand DS better and the glory of DS.
May this Forum be a haven, be an institution of learning and healing, a place of comfort and solace to anyone who needs and seeks for it.
May this Forum be a sanctuary of friendship, hope and great faith.
May the supreme glory of DS spread into the ten directions from here and change lives.
I shall re-post my comments here in other threads where I have commented so that the people whom my apologies are directed to can read them. This is my only intention and it is not to spam.
Thank you for having me here. It is a joy and priviledge.
May I always strive to behave and speak in a way that reflects my Guru’s teachings and kindness. May I always embody what I aspire to practice through my words. May I strive to be a good example of a student of Dharma and follower of DS.
THANK YOU ALL and have a wonderful day
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Dear friend,
Please read my answer ... I don't remember where, but you'll find it.
Thank you again.
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Thanks Mohani for the name and the link. If you like Logic, then please please read LIKE A HEART SO DEARLY NEEDED FOR LIBERATION. It's been compiled by one of the last yogis that got enlightened in our times, Trehor Rinpoche, but the texts compiled are mostly from Gyeltsab Je, the main disciple of Lord Tsongkhapa, if I remember correctly. It's Logic put to work to prove the basic tenets of our holy system.
Honeydakini, thank you for your words. I was thinking that when we have the following, that you describe: In some cases, it may also be that we are commenting on the tone used in the forum in the event that it begins to become unfriendly, hurtful or when people are making it an unpleasant atmosphere to post in we should send a private message to the person.
Any such or similar situation should be treated privately, it's better for the mind of the person receiving the comment.
Same thing for laudatory remarks. To be constantly lauding each other might create a source of anxiety, why is he complimented and me not? why nobody is saying nice things to me anymore? We are all under the weight of the 8 worldly dharmas, it would be a good idea to avoid them.
These are ideas not diktats. I'll try to put them into practice myself.
Thank you again for your words.
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Hello Folks,
I wanted to say thank you to people here. The last couple of days I have been feeling pretty uncomfortable, I felt sad about what people had been saying about me. I have felt scared to post on here. But it has helped me to look in my mind to see that the pain is coming from attatchment to my reputation and wanting people to like me, so I needn't be scared to post on here, because I know I have not done anything wrong and that I have acted from love. If people feel I have and they see me as a problem then that is their negative mind and I am sorry to have acted as a condition for that, but then maybe it has helped them to identify the enemy within their mind.
I have always been happy to help people on this forum with anything I can, and I will continue to do so.
May mara be destroyed by the swift and wrathful Dorje Shugden.
Love,
Mohani.x
Dear Mohani
I'm so glad to revisit this thread and find harmony restored, lesson learnt, our ego slayed. Thank you for staying and continuing to contribute to this site. There's so much experience and knowledge from the seniors that I feel will be a great lost if we focus on petty differences... when we all share a very STRONG LOVE and GRATITUDE to our BELOVED PROTECTOR KING DORJE SHUGDEN whose time has come!
DSFriend
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Hey A Friend,
I must have missed your post in all the mountain of new threads and discussions. Thank you so kindly for taking the time to suggest this title to me. I will try and look for it. Yes, I'll enjoy a cup of sweet nectar of Dharma. What a beautiful phrase indeed. Thank you again, friend.
Dear Samayatree,
This is the book that I would recommend right now about Logic. LIKE A HEART SO DEARLY NEEDED FOR LIBERATION. http://www.mstp.us/Books/HeartSoDearly.php (http://www.mstp.us/Books/HeartSoDearly.php)
It's not an official manual of logic, it applies Dharma logic directly to the basic knowledges that we need to start the path. It's such a great book, so uplifting!
Let me quote from their presentation:[/color]
Indeed, what is the heart of the path? The logical mind. By proving that Buddha is a perfect refuge, that past and future lives exist, and that liberation and enlightenment are truly possible for us, we can tread the path surefooted, with confidence, not as followers of blind faith, but as accomplished followers of reason.
If sometime you have the opportunity to get it and read it you will enjoy a wonderful cup of the sweet nectar of Dharma.
[/quote]
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Hello Folks,
I wanted to say thank you to people here. The last couple of days I have been feeling pretty uncomfortable, I felt sad about what people had been saying about me. I have felt scared to post on here. But it has helped me to look in my mind to see that the pain is coming from attatchment to my reputation and wanting people to like me, so I needn't be scared to post on here, because I know I have not done anything wrong and that I have acted from love. If people feel I have and they see me as a problem then that is their negative mind and I am sorry to have acted as a condition for that, but then maybe it has helped them to identify the enemy within their mind.
I have always been happy to help people on this forum with anything I can, and I will continue to do so.
May mara be destroyed by the swift and wrathful Dorje Shugden.
Love,
Mohani.x
I like what you say here, Mohani. I also don't like to feel apprehensive to post things and be accused of being a robot or whatever bot. If i feel that someone is being personal and antagonistic, i'd rather not engage with them because i feel it's not constructive. Then i receive sarcastic comments?
Actually i looked up sarcasm and it's defined as “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt." and some of our forum members say they like being sarcastic. I'm not angry but i feel sad.
May Dorje Shugden please help us not hurt each other.
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Great New Frontpage !
yes it is... congratulations to the webmaster/designer and thank you for spending so much effort and time on this site to continuously improve it. Your dedication to Dorje Shugden is immeasurable!
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Dear Website Admin and team!
WOW! Beautiful new skin for the website. Looks fresh, modern, classy, approachable. What an amazing team (i assume there is more than one of you) to always look for ways to improve the site. Hats off to you...talking about hats, Dorje Shuden's hat looks fabulous on the frontpage!
three cheers
DSFriend