dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: LosangKhyentse on June 04, 2010, 09:56:37 PM
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"I doubt however that this campaign will stop there.
If you didn’t know, they have already “CLEANED UP” the LAM RIM lineage prayer and REMOVED "Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang’s name from that lineage.
Sherig Pharkhang, the official printer for the Department of Religion and Culture, has even removed Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang’s name mantra from the consecration mantras that they print.
This means that if one were to order the collection of mantras that are used to fill statues, stupas and many holy objects they WILL NOT INCLUDE Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang."
Some may wonder why we fight? Look back at the photo of young Kyabje Choktrul Rinpoche arm being held by the Dalia Lama and then think of this fact and look again into the eyes of the Dalia Lama and you see as we have said, an Imposter!
(extracted from Thomas David Canada in the Guestbook: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/Guestbook/ )
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What sad news... and I thought the Dalai Lama said that Trijang Rinpoche was a great Master?
Isn't this like the ancient Chinese Emperors who would arbitrarily delete names of their predecessors/rivals and change history to make themselves look good.
Om Mani Peme Hung.
:(
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Looks like history is repeating itself...to name two prominent figures, Pabongkha Rinpoche's (previous incarnations) and Tulku Drapga Gyelsen's and whose line of incarnation got "deleted"? What I find "hopeful" (if that's the right word to use) is that the name can be deleted and changed, but NOBODY can stop these incarnations from returning and continuing their work to benefit others!
The question is,..how will this affect our lineage if this continues and more names are being deleted?!
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All those who are following the Dalai lama are pretty much now killing the pure lineage of the Gaden tradition...I suppose it just goes to show the degenerate times we live in.
Looking back upon this perhapes this movement is a much needed step at least the monks who have been expelled are perserving the purity of the doctrine. :)
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Is this really true, or just something said to incite people? For example, was the name removed or it wasn't there in the first place (in the consecration rollups)?
His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang's name mantra was DEFINITELY in shiri parkhang Dharamsala. In fact both tutors including Ling Rinpoche's name mantra was definitely available also. It was a part of the established mainstream group of mantras that would be purchased by the public to insert into one's statues and very sought after in fact by the Gelug community and general lay communities throughout India.
I was in Dharamsala many times and have purchased it myself. Have requested monks to purchase for me a few times also in the past for statues.
Tk
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The question is,..how will this affect our lineage if this continues and more names are being deleted?!
Dear DSFriend,
In a general way the teachings of Lord Buddha will follow the universal law and will disappear from this world in a relatively short time.
I don´t know if the teachings of our second Buddha Lord Tsongkapa will disappear before or not, but they will disappear too, like the teachings of the Buddhas of old.
One thing is sure: we can prolong the time that this teachings will last in Jambudvipa with our own actions. If we practice purely, following the advice of Je Tsongkapa, studying, analyzing, contemplating, meditating, then his teachings, the churned cream of Lord Buddha's teachings, will stay for a longer time. If we don´t do that, or if we only focus in pernicious politics, then we are hastening their end.
About our lineage and the destructive actions of the Dalai Lama: I don´t think these will end the lineage. He can erase as many names as he wishes, if we still have heroic practitioners, both monastic and lay people, believe me, the holy names of our Lamas will continue to shine with glory for the sake of our mother beings. Happily we still have those practitioners, and we can try to help the new ones to gradually focus on the Lamrim and forget about this unfortunate Dharma tragedy.
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Re HH Trijang Rinpoche, I have just read this which Lama Zopa said about him:
"The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him. That’s absolutely shameful. Therefore, the people around him have to think very extensively. In his previous life he performed incredibly holy actions; therefore, his present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light."
Even though Lama Zopa's stance is against Shugden, he still saw HH Trijang Rinpoche as such. If only others can see it too.
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someone told me that the dalai lama said nobody can practice dorje shugden except trijang rinpoche. is that true? why so biase????
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this is a stupid question but - does this mean it would be ILLEGAL to recite his name? Even if it's removed from the lamrim, can't monks and practitioners just continue to recite it anyway? And continue to print his name mantra for consecration mantras? I mean the government doesn't really have any right to just cut off a lineage does it. These things are generally voted upon and decided by the sangha, no? so what happens if they continue to recite his name as if it wasn't removed?
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:D Illegal? Honeydakini, the only one doing "illegal" things here is the Dalai Lama. By "illegal" I assume you mean "against the Dharma" or "against our vows".
You can repeat, and for your own good fortune I wish you did, you can repeat the name of Trijang Dorjechang as many times as you wish, the more the better. You can write it and fill your statues with it. He is our Lama, we received everything we have from Kyabje Pabongkapa and him, his main disciple.
We owe these two Lamas everything, much more than our lives. We owe them the possibility of liberation, of enlightenment. How the usage of their salvific holy names could ever be illegal? Those who broke samaya with them are lost in some very sad space, and transmitting what? What can you give to others when you have cut yourself from the source?
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someone told me that the dalai lama said nobody can practice dorje shugden except trijang rinpoche. is that true? why so biase????
Hi Bouncy,
Yes, it's true (he is on youtube saying it!) and it is very illogical isn't it? If Dorje Shugden is such a terrible demon who threatens the Dalai Lama's own life, like the Dalai Lama professes, then no one should be allowed to do his practice, so by saying Trijang Rinpoche can practice, he contradicts himself.
Cheers
Kate
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This is so ridiculous ::). How can removing the name of “Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang” from the Lamrim Lineage prayer just because he is a Dorje Shugden practitioner can change the fact that Trijang Rinpoche was one of the greatest Lamrim lineage holder of all times and the guru of almost all the High Lamas of the Gelukpa tradition.
However, even if it is true that Dharamsala has removed it, supporters of Trijang Rinpoche can always maintain it. What can Dharamsala do as not all Dorje Shugden practioners are under their jurisdiction. Therefore, the responsibility of preserving the Lamrim lineage prayer in its entirety will fall in the hands of gelukpa practitioners who are non Dharamsala supporters.
To disregard Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche who has transmitted all the Lamrim teachings to our guru or our guru’s guru so that we can receive these precious teachings that can lead us out of samsara and all types of sufferings would be truly ungrateful to say the least. But what’s worse is that it will destroy your samaya with this holy being who is a great source of all holy teachings within the gelukpa tradition and your chances of receiving the Dharma from him or any Lamas connected to him in the future.
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Welcome Wosel Tenzin.
Clear thinking, l can see. Very useful.
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Yes, it's true (he is on youtube saying it!) and it is very illogical isn't it? If Dorje Shugden is such a terrible demon who threatens the Dalai Lama's own life, like the Dalai Lama professes, then no one should be allowed to do his practice, so by saying Trijang Rinpoche can practice, he contradicts himself.
How come DL can be harm by dorje shugden and DL is the person who make dorje shugden more famous then buddha , there is something behind he want to do .
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This is so ridiculous ::). How can removing the name of “Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang” from the Lamrim Lineage prayer just because he is a Dorje Shugden practitioner can change the fact that Trijang Rinpoche was one of the greatest Lamrim lineage holder of all times and the guru of almost all the High Lamas of the Gelukpa tradition.
However, even if it is true that Dharamsala has removed it, supporters of Trijang Rinpoche can always maintain it. What can Dharamsala do as not all Dorje Shugden practioners are under their jurisdiction. Therefore, the responsibility of preserving the Lamrim lineage prayer in its entirety will fall in the hands of gelukpa practitioners who are non Dharamsala supporters.
To disregard Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche who has transmitted all the Lamrim teachings to our guru or our guru’s guru so that we can receive these precious teachings that can lead us out of samsara and all types of sufferings would be truly ungrateful to say the least. But what’s worse is that it will destroy your samaya with this holy being who is a great source of all holy teachings within the gelukpa tradition and your chances of receiving the Dharma from him or any Lamas connected to him in the future.
Wosel,
I like what you said, especially "the responsibility of preserving the Lamrim lineage prayer in its entirety will fall in the hands of gelukpa practitioners" - so it's up to us, which is the Buddhist philosophy of taking responsibility for what happens in the future. I guess this is what we are doing now - raising awareness so that people will not forget who our lineage Lamas are, despite others' wishes to eradicate them. Removing the name will not remove the fact that he existed and all his great works which will benefit others for generations to come.
Thank you Wosel :)
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someone told me that the dalai lama said nobody can practice dorje shugden except trijang rinpoche. is that true? why so biase????
Dear Bouncylittlebee
A warm welcome to Rattle That Cage! In here, you will find many INTERESTING topics discussed and debated out. The question you asked have been previously discussed so do freely browse this forum to read up.
For now, I'd like to point you to this video:
Dalai Lama Says Trijang Rinpoche Can Practise Dorje Shugden
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=295
best wishes
DSFriend
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:D Illegal? Honeydakini, the only one doing "illegal" things here is the Dalai Lama. By "illegal" I assume you mean "against the Dharma" or "against our vows".
You can repeat, and for your own good fortune I wish you did, you can repeat the name of Trijang Dorjechang as many times as you wish, the more the better. You can write it and fill your statues with it. He is our Lama, we received everything we have from Kyabje Pabongkapa and him, his main disciple.
We owe these two Lamas everything, much more than our lives. We owe them the possibility of liberation, of enlightenment. How the usage of their salvific holy names could ever be illegal? Those who broke samaya with them are lost in some very sad space, and transmitting what? What can you give to others when you have cut yourself from the source?
A friend: No, no I meant "ILLEGAL" in terms of it being considered an offense by the TGIE. And what basis they would have for stating that reciting a Lama's name is illegal! I mean, what happens if say, a monk from Gaden is "caught" still reciting his name mantra or printing it on consecration mantras? (I don't mean karmically, but I mean do they get fined/ kicked out of monastery etc)
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DS is demon? How you can prove? Removed Kyabje Trijiang Rinpoche's name from mantra because he is DS pratitioner, doesnt make sense. A pratitioner still will continue do their prayer even though you kick him out from monastery or remove his name from mantra; as a high lama they still continue what they will do. My point is dont always create a negative situation towards all the holy high lama.
Because their motivation is pure and only for benefit sentient being. So, neither Trijing Rinpoche is DS pratitioner or not is doesnt matter, why? Because what they doing for society, sentient being is more important than other.
Please give them respect and protect them always, dont always make difficulties!! What you think??
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Can someone reveal Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's Name mantra to all of us, so that we may all recite it and receive His blessings?
We can't stop others from doing what they want, but we can choose to take up what they have given up.
Would be good if someone can post a huge photo of Him.
Peace.
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It is sad how an elite master is treated this way. ???
They can remove Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's name from Lamrim linage prayer but they can never remove it from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche students' mind and heart. May they carry on Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's linage and teachings to benefit many for now and generations to come.
Om Mani Padme Hum
VS
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Honeydakini,
From the TGIE's point of view it's illegal to be a DSh practitioner. Practitioners are banned from everything, not only from the teachings. The draft Constitution for a future democratic Tibet has been changed to include a specific clause barring a DSh practitioner from holding public office. Not that the Constitution in any version had ever any value, except to talk about it to unsuspecting Westerners that will believe in the desire for democracy that DL has ...
As you know, from 2008 on, entire Tibetan communities around the world, not only in India and Tibet, have been mobilized for the lay people to take the oath of never again have any contact with a Dorje Shugden practitioner, not even for human necessities.
So of course if you are in those communities, where the Associations of Youth and Women are all working for the Dalai Lama and the TGIE, you are not going to publicize that you are a practitioner, let alone that you are printing Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's name. If you do it, you do it in secret.
This is partly why I insist in not publicizing theories that justify the DL's behaviour in the name of religion, because sooner or later it will give a very bad name to Buddhists, and the Buddhadharma, to be protecting or justifying so many blatant attacks against a minority's human rights.
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It is sad how an elite master is treated this way.
They can remove Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's name from Lamrim linage prayer but they can never remove it from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche students' mind and heart. May they carry on Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's linage and teachings to benefit many for now and generations to come.
The importance of Kyabjes Pabongka and Trijang Rinpoches is that they are our only gateway to the blessings of our lineage, the only gateway for the transmission of the holy teachings. Litterally they are our entrance gate for liberation and enlightenment. Everything we have we received from them. Unfortunately their great disciples are mostly gone to the Pure Lands already, and I can perceive how even among DSh practitioners the younger generations talk about them in a very respectful way ... but quite remote already, as if they were starting to be forgotten. This saddens my heart, no doubt, but also makes me fear for the lineage. Little by little people might start thinking ... well, they are gone, why not take the teachings from the DL and the "kosher Lamas" (as they are called today those who are following the DL in the ban's issue) ... not realizing that if the lineage has been abandoned, then the blessings of the lineage are gone ... maybe until another far away kalpa, heavens forbid!
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Welcome Wosel Tenzin.
Clear thinking, l can see. Very useful.
I agree. Thank you.
TK
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The importance of Kyabjes Pabongka and Trijang Rinpoches is that they are our only gateway to the blessings of our lineage, the only gateway for the transmission of the holy teachings. Litterally they are our entrance gate for liberation and enlightenment. Everything we have we received from them. Unfortunately their great disciples are mostly gone to the Pure Lands already, and I can perceive how even among DSh practitioners the younger generations talk about them in a very respectful way ... but quite remote already, as if they were starting to be forgotten. This saddens my heart, no doubt, but also makes me fear for the lineage. Little by little people might start thinking ... well, they are gone, why not take the teachings from the DL and the "kosher Lamas" (as they are called today those who are following the DL in the ban's issue) ... not realizing that if the lineage has been abandoned, then the blessings of the lineage are gone ... maybe until another far away kalpa, heavens forbid!
This is true - the Lamas who escaped from Tibet in the 50s are now in their 80s or have passed into clear light. Like Kyabje Kensur Lati Rinpoche from Gaden who just passed in April this year. Many of them have even been reborn already and are in their youth, like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. But between the surviving esteemed Lamas in their 80s and these young Lamas in their 20s, there is a generation of Lamas who were the direct disciples of the older generation of Lamas. I believe it is that crucial generation of Lamas who will pave the future of the Gelugpa tradition before the younger Lamas mature into their own.
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In the "Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand" - it is stated very clearly that after our Guru is gone, the teachings remain and they stand as our Guru. As the lineage is one that is preserved and kept alive via LIVING TRANSMISSIONS from Guru to students, erasing a Guru's name will not destroy the teachings alone. Further destructive actions following that might. And I should think, these are the things none of us should waste our energies and time on, but rather, to invest in more time and energies in upholding what has been passed down to us by our Gurus. No one can remove the Dharma inside us. They can only remove the Dharma outside of us. As long as it remains intact inside all of us, then we are the holders of the lineage and keepers of the teachings. In this way, yes, the responsibility lies with us - the students are still around and have the time adn energy to keep them alive and work on propogating them IN THE RIGHT WAY. There are many ways to win the war. Long live, Gelugpa!
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I agree with Samayatree (No one can remove the Dharma inside us. They can only remove the Dharma outside of us.)
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Thank you...So, ban or no ban - we still continue and will find ways to continue until the KING returns. And the KING will return. So, perfect our own practices and be true to our lineage, and surrender ourselves to our Gurus. While our Gurus are alive and with us, learn and absorb all that we must learn in order to become the people we are meant to become. Do not wait until we have to prostrate to a statue representation of our Gurus and then regret. That would be too late then. Do not engage in activities and things that do not benefit ourselves or others. And by all means, please do not disparage others and harm others. THIS IS NOT WHY WE STUDY THE DHARMA. Ask ourselves, why do we study the DHARMA in the first place? Do not be so hasty to launch a war outside of ourselves when we have not even conquered the battles within ourselves. Our real religion is LOVING KINDNESS. May we all be shining examples of that, and make our Gurus proud by honoring their memories with our noble deeds. LONG LIVE THE DHARMA KING AND THE GELUG LINEAGE! MAY ALL LINEAGES OF BUDDHISM UPHOLD the 6 PARAMITAS in every sense of the word. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.
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Guru Devotion is important. I like what you wrote about upholding our end, our side of things. Thank you, Samayatree.
Thank you...So, ban or no ban - we still continue and will find ways to continue until the KING returns. And the KING will return. So, perfect our own practices and be true to our lineage, and surrender ourselves to our Gurus. While our Gurus are alive and with us, learn and absorb all that we must learn in order to become the people we are meant to become. Do not wait until we have to prostrate to a statue representation of our Gurus and then regret. That would be too late then. Do not engage in activities and things that do not benefit ourselves or others. And by all means, please do not disparage others and harm others. THIS IS NOT WHY WE STUDY THE DHARMA. Ask ourselves, why do we study the DHARMA in the first place? Do not be so hasty to launch a war outside of ourselves when we have not even conquered the battles within ourselves. Our real religion is LOVING KINDNESS. May we all be shining examples of that, and make our Gurus proud by honoring their memories with our noble deeds. LONG LIVE THE DHARMA KING AND THE GELUG LINEAGE! MAY ALL LINEAGES OF BUDDHISM UPHOLD the 6 PARAMITAS in every sense of the word. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.
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I personally find it interesting that the TGIE's press can do such a thing. It makes no sense to do so. If Trijang Rinpoche's name is removed from the lineage prayer, then the lineage breaks. There'll be a gap from Je pabongkhapa to HHDL. There's no link and hence the blessings of the lineage simply stops at that juncture and is really bad to think that there's power in the prayer.
I really am saddened and shaken by the fact that such a thing can happen with the Tibetan Buddhist community. What are we really preserving here? A heritage of sacred teachings passed down by the Buddha or is just mere manipulation sprung from the egoistic mind?
sad.
H1N1
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Bouncylittlebee,
Its very odd that HHDL would only allow Kyabjye Trijang Rinpoche to practice, HHDL is no fool is there more than meets the eye :o
Dear Crimsontide,
I have the same feeling as you. I personally respect HHDL very much. All these propagandas created by HHDL is so obviously illogical to be originated from him. For a holy being to speak illogically and to create so much commotion on Dorje Shugden, I can only deduct the fact that HHDL is actually helping to promote the practise of DS. First HHDL openedly allow Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche to continue the practise of DS, and now HHDL removed Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's name mantra, creating a gap in the lineage prayers. HHDL is doing all these to make himself look even worse, more madness. what would you think of HHDL if you witness all what he is doing now? Since it doesn't make sense, so it will naturally propell you to practise DS. I actually repect HHDL for finding so many ways to put his reputation at stake in order to pave the way for the King to come.
Thank you.
Triesa
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January 13, 1999
H.H. the Dalai Lama paid visit to Trijang Labrang, the residence of His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche (1900-1981), his tutor.
At a gathering of the Labrang's, H.H. the Dalai Lama says: “...during my visit to Switzerland, Lobsang said, the current Choktul Rinpoche be allowed to worship Dorje Shugden like his predecessor, without a decision through the dough ball divination. He also told me that the ban on Shugden worship is causing widespread suffering to everyone, and that it may be revoked. This is ridiculous talk. My reason for banning the Protector is in the interest of Tibetan's politics and religion, as well as for the Gelug tradition. In our face to face meeting, I also told Rinpoche to understand that we may meet each other for the last time."
During this private audience with H.H. the Dalai Lama, Ven. Choezed la, the eldest official at Trijang Labrang, mostly humbly pointed out that the religious ban has created an unprecedented atmosphere of hostility against both Shartse monastery and against Trijang Labrang which is not very different from the atmosphere of the Cultural Revolution in Tibet. He requested that, to lift the suffering within the Tibetan public from this atmosphere, he may kindly consider revoking the ban.
To this, H.H. the Dalai Lama angrily said,
“there will be no change in my stand. I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution. If they (those who do not accept the ban) do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them.”
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Dear everyone - especially to Mohani, A Friend and Samayatree,
Firstly, I would like to express my deepest and sincere apologies. I must admit when I first read about how some people wanted to open a mirror site and just abandoned ship like that, so easily - it sparked a defense mechanism within me. As it stands, DS practitioners are already getting bullied in all ways. So, I felt much incensed by how our own members would seemingly do the same. Having said all that, I realise these are just my own perceptions. Whether they are right or wrong, I cannot say. I have no right to say. Whether they themselves understand what they are doing and what their real motivation is, I am also not in a position to judge. As our main practice is always loving kindness, I felt most ashamed that I displayed none of it. As I logged in and read all the posts - especially the conversations between A Friend and Samayatree and how they resovled their differences and ended up friendship, it truly moved me. In addition, when I read Mohani's own post - it brought tears to my eyes. I am sure it is not easy for Mohani to do this. I know it would not be easy for me, personally, if I were Mohani. But I have gained faith and respect in the members of this Forum due to what has happened recently. Sometimes we ourselves may not know how well our sincere intent may be received. Some of us may not even realise whether our intent is sincere or genuine in the first place as well. After much reflection on my own shameful actions, and the kind actions of others in this Forum - my belief and faith in this Forum are deeply reinforced. This website and Forum not only share a treasure of valuable information but it brings people to a higher understanding of one another, and of ourselves. And that is truly amazingly beautiful to me.
I had to re-value my own thoughts and feelings as well. Perhaps this is similiar to what is happening in Dharamsala & TGIE - HH DL may have his own plans in doing what he does with DS - but the ways in which the TGIE has executed those policies have been too extreme. Some may have been over-ruled by their own highly defensive emotions, some may be over-ruled by their own desires for more power and money and some may be just plain confused and are swept by the whole TIDE OF THINGS. Hence, there is a real difference between those who execute and those who issues a statement or policy, or those who want to do something important but the sincerity of the intent is not understood, or even appreciated. So much misunderstanding can arise from it, as can be exemplified by what happened in here. This is just a mirror to our outside world.
It is vry clear to me that I know very little and understand very little. Above all, it is so important that we begin everything with compassion so that we can end with compassion.
I can safely say that no one here is bad or has any ill intent. So many people – oldies or newbies have taken the time to post things and share so much meaningful information and have enriched us all. This Forum is great because of everyone’s collective efforts and dedication to share more. And that is what I truly value most of all.
So, once again, I am deeply sorry to have caused anyone, any grief or discomfort in any which way or form. And I humbly request that we all remember how valuable this Forum this and how important all of us are to this Forum. We are the ones who make this Forum special, every input and every word we put in here – may it all be drenched with loving kindness, and the true motivation to help others understand DS better and the glory of DS.
May this Forum be a haven, be an institution of learning and healing, a place of comfort and solace to anyone who needs and seeks for it.
May this Forum be a sanctuary of friendship, hope and great faith.
May the supreme glory of DS spread into the ten directions from here and change lives.
I shall re-post my comments here in other threads where I have commented so that the people whom my apologies are directed to can read them. This is my only intention and it is not to spam.
Thank you for having me here. It is a joy and priviledge.
May I always strive to behave and speak in a way that reflects my Guru’s teachings and kindness. May I always embody what I aspire to practice through my words. May I strive to be a good example of a student of Dharma and follower of DS.
THANK YOU ALL and have a wonderful day
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This news is really sad and yet at the same time so absurd. By removing Trijang Rinpoche's mantra is like saying the Lamrin is WRONG and all the lineage lamas are WRONG including ATISHA . Then why do we have GURU TREE pictures on our altar. LASTLY, what is the point of TIBETAN BUDDHISM, isn't it about LINEAGE and it's teachings!! Where is the logic????
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Dear Cleojean,
It's difficult to show enough appreciation for the effort you have put into analyzing the situation and your own mind. Let's live up to the new awareness and friendship that is starting to timidly sprout after so many misunderstandings.
It doesn't matter that we have two quite clearly defined visions about the actions of the Dalai Lama. Before we can truly reflect and ponder such difficult matter it's of capital importance, if we wish this Forum to survive in any meaningful way, that we set aside any hatred among ourselves. Superficial outbursts are of no importance and easily fixed. The athmosphere that we had reached of suspicion and hostility has started to clear up or so it seems. Your position clearly states a willingness to abandon such feelings and I wish with all my heart that all of us end up friends no matter the differences.
After all, do we know the incredible number of Buddhists schools that have sprouted since the Blessed One adorned this Jambudvipa with his holy presence? A lot. Possibly many have even disappeared without a trace. Still, all of them tried to express and live up to the speech of our Lord Buddha. So I am trying to put our differences in that broad context.
No doubt I am going to express my position with total clarity, I cannot do it otherwise. But it never will express any contempt, hatred, dislike or whatnot against others. I don't want to shoot myself in the foot. I'm not planning to ruin whatever small things I've reached in my practice by starting the cultivation of hateful thoughts. I'm sure nobody is planning to do that either.
So again, thank you. Thank you for your good mind, for your efforts and your example.
I'm sorry too, from my heart, for any involontary hurt that I might've produced.
And now, let's keep on praying and reflecting about these very difficult, painful matters. May the waves of blessings from the Holy objects of refuge flood this Forum and all worlds !!!
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Hear hear loud and clear, cleo and afriend... this attitude is what Dharma is all about!
**Makes a serkym offering, signs the Dorje Shugden forum peace treaty, liberally sprinkles loving stardust all around and hugs everyone in the forum**
now let's move forward and discuss the issues at hand...
I personally find it interesting that the TGIE's press can do such a thing. It makes no sense to do so. If Trijang Rinpoche's name is removed from the lineage prayer, then the lineage breaks. There'll be a gap from Je pabongkhapa to HHDL. There's no link and hence the blessings of the lineage simply stops at that juncture and is really bad to think that there's power in the prayer.
I really am saddened and shaken by the fact that such a thing can happen with the Tibetan Buddhist community. What are we really preserving here? A heritage of sacred teachings passed down by the Buddha or is just mere manipulation sprung from the egoistic mind?
sad.
H1N1
so if they remove Trijang Rinpoche's name - what happens to the lineage? i thought that an unbroken lineage is crucial to the transmissions of the lineage practices?
what is the implication? and if anyone rejects the Dalai Lama - how does that affect our lineage?
Tk mentioned in his commentary (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1425):
"Zong Rinpoche (previous), Dagom Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche,Geshe Tendar, current Trijang Rinpoche, current Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, current Pabongka, Gonsar Rinpoche, the oracle monks, Gangchen Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Tsultrim Gyeltsen, etc etc all took teachings from the 14th Dalai Lama, let’s not forget, at once time or another. So if we have taken teachings from the above lamas, then 14th Dalai lama is also our lineage lama which we must respect. Logical?
Since we say the Dalai lama must respect our lineage lamas such as Pabongka, then we must also reverse the situation and respect the Dalai lama as our lineage lama. So either way, the system is set up for you to ‘lose’. If that is the case, there must be a MUCH BIGGER PICTURE that current infractions with our lineage lamas can be repaired later FOR THE BIGGER PICTURE."
interesting.
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Hear hear loud and clear, cleo and afriend... this attitude is what Dharma is all about!
**Makes a serkym offering, signs the Dorje Shugden forum peace treaty, liberally sprinkles loving stardust all around and hugs everyone in the forum**
now let's move forward and discuss the issues at hand...
I personally find it interesting that the TGIE's press can do such a thing. It makes no sense to do so. If Trijang Rinpoche's name is removed from the lineage prayer, then the lineage breaks. There'll be a gap from Je pabongkhapa to HHDL. There's no link and hence the blessings of the lineage simply stops at that juncture and is really bad to think that there's power in the prayer.
I really am saddened and shaken by the fact that such a thing can happen with the Tibetan Buddhist community. What are we really preserving here? A heritage of sacred teachings passed down by the Buddha or is just mere manipulation sprung from the egoistic mind?
sad.
H1N1
so if they remove Trijang Rinpoche's name - what happens to the lineage? i thought that an unbroken lineage is crucial to the transmissions of the lineage practices?
what is the implication? and if anyone rejects the Dalai Lama - how does that affect our lineage?
Tk mentioned in his commentary ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1425[/url]):
"Zong Rinpoche (previous), Dagom Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche,Geshe Tendar, current Trijang Rinpoche, current Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, current Pabongka, Gonsar Rinpoche, the oracle monks, Gangchen Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Tsultrim Gyeltsen, etc etc all took teachings from the 14th Dalai Lama, let’s not forget, at once time or another. So if we have taken teachings from the above lamas, then 14th Dalai lama is also our lineage lama which we must respect. Logical?
Since we say the Dalai lama must respect our lineage lamas such as Pabongka, then we must also reverse the situation and respect the Dalai lama as our lineage lama. So either way, the system is set up for you to ‘lose’. If that is the case, there must be a MUCH BIGGER PICTURE that current infractions with our lineage lamas can be repaired later FOR THE BIGGER PICTURE."
interesting.
I am not sure how it works but I assume that if my root guru who gave me HYT (Heruka and Vajrayogini) empowerments has Trijang as his root guru for the same thing, there is no need for the Dalai Lama to appear anywhere for that lineage to be unbroken, regardless of HHDL having maybe taught my guru other aspects of the path.
I understand that it is possible to have more than one root guru, so a lineage may be transmitted through any of them, I guess. And I am guessing! ;)
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I personally find it interesting that the TGIE's press can do such a thing. It makes no sense to do so. If Trijang Rinpoche's name is removed from the lineage prayer, then the lineage breaks. There'll be a gap from Je pabongkhapa to HHDL. There's no link and hence the blessings of the lineage simply stops at that juncture and is really bad to think that there's power in the prayer.
I really am saddened and shaken by the fact that such a thing can happen with the Tibetan Buddhist community. What are we really preserving here? A heritage of sacred teachings passed down by the Buddha or is just mere manipulation sprung from the egoistic mind?
sad.
H1N1
This is interesting.
Does this implicate that teachings given by anyone from Trijang Rinpoche onwards is nullified?
Though somehow I don't think a lineage can be nullified merely by omitting the teacher's names - the blessings of the lineage and that teacher will remain, surely, whether or not he is mentioned!
What is worrying is that then, historically and factually, the authenticity of the lineage becomes slightly compromised, doesn't it? When Gurus give teachings, they always state where they had received that teaching, from which Guru and so on, tracing all the way back to Shakyamuni himself. So if one person starts permitting the removal of names from the lineage, doesn't this set a terribly dangerous precedent? A few hundred years later, we cannot be sure of the lineage that we have really received. It begs the question: if it has been so easy to remove a lineage lama in this day and age, then has it also been done before? And has the lineage we think we are following in fact, been jiggled about? How can we ever be sure then of the authenticity of our lineage and where we're receiving teachings from?
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Wasn't Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's name removed from all the prayers and books as well sometime back? TO the point that to search for his incarnation is banned, and that the mere mention of his name is also frowned upon? Hence, is this not proof that they have "doctored" history and changed it according to what they want to project?
Is it not surprising that there is a ban all over again? Erasing of an esteemed Master's name is happening yet again?
They can erase all they want but it does not stop the belief, faith and trust that the students have in their Gurus. Hence, the lineage continues when the students upholds the teachings and transmissions passed onto them by their Gurus and have kept them well and clean. And their students will pass onto their own students. The deletion is in name only. Not in the real sense.
In the case of Enlightened Beings, just because someone decides to ban his incarnation and not search for it, does not necessarily mean that this Enlightened Being has stopped incarnating or emanating all this while. How can a mere mortal halt an Enlightened Being's compassionate work or incarnations/emanations?
It just doesn't sound logical to me.
So, if a tree fell in the forest and just because we didn't see it, does that mean that the tree did not fall?
Even China's invasion of Tibet could not stop Tibet from flourishing. And what is truly the essence of Tibet - beyond its land of snows, its ground and its population? Is it not its sacred jewel teachings?
So, without Pabongka mastering all of them and passing them onto a heart dsiciple that is the perfect vessel that is Trijang Rinpoche, hten the rest of us here and now would not have a single thing. This forum would not even exist in the first place. It would be the end of Gelugpa.
From Trijang Rinpoche, tanother generation of students rose to become Masters in their own right. Each holding the same sacred teachings that Pabongka had passed down to Trijang. These new students have now become the perfect vessels to propagate the lineage throguh their own students. These students are now Masters and they are Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Zong Rinpoche, etc.
Zong Rinpoche has since passed on, and his new incarnation is now in Gaden. But before Zong Rinpoche passed on, I am sure he must have passed on a great deal to a few heart disciples. As I am sure Geshe Kelsang Gyatso would be doing as well.
Hence, it is in the students that a lineage lives on. NO one can take away the DHARMA that is inside of us.
They can earse all they want, burn books and tear down buildings or statues - as long as a student is still breathing, the lineage continues.
When we began to hold everything within, we become our own temples, centers and a walking breathing living transmission of everything sacred that can be traced all the way to the times of Buddha.
This is my own personal simplistic and personal view.
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What I find terribly intriguing and really rather illogical is that in spite of removing all these names, banning even the mere mention of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen (it all sounds very Valdemort and Harry Potter, doesn't it!), many of the main monasteries such as Gaden Shartse still widely study PANCHEN SONAM DRAKPA's texts - as their central syllabus for the Geshe qualification, no less! The entire foundation of their learning and teachers arise from scriptures written by the very being they have "BANNED".
Even in the case of more "recently" banned lamas such as pabongkha Rinpoche... His text "Liberation in the palm of your hand" is also still studied in the monasteries. So the entire person is "bad" and "wrong" and most of his teachings and lineage is not valid by virtue of his wrongful practice, but some of his teachings are still regarded as very beneficial, clean and correct? Ironic that "liberation" is Lamrim teachings - the basis of all other practices! So he is correct in this - the very foundation of all all lineage teachings and therefore his own practice - but wrong in all the others?
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What I find terribly intriguing and really rather illogical is that in spite of removing all these names, banning even the mere mention of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen (it all sounds very Valdemort and Harry Potter, doesn't it!), many of the main monasteries such as Gaden Shartse still widely study PANCHEN SONAM DRAKPA's texts - as their central syllabus for the Geshe qualification, no less! The entire foundation of their learning and teachers arise from scriptures written by the very being they have "BANNED".
Even in the case of more "recently" banned lamas such as pabongkha Rinpoche... His text "Liberation in the palm of your hand" is also still studied in the monasteries. So the entire person is "bad" and "wrong" and most of his teachings and lineage is not valid by virtue of his wrongful practice, but some of his teachings are still regarded as very beneficial, clean and correct? Ironic that "liberation" is Lamrim teachings - the basis of all other practices! So he is correct in this - the very foundation of all all lineage teachings and therefore his own practice - but wrong in all the others?
I went inside of Gaden Shartse's main prayer hall a few weeks ago and was delighted to see that they still have a huge statue of Panchen Sonam Drakpa. They also still have a throne devoted to Trijang Rinpoche and one devoted to Trisur Rinpoche, Jetsun Lungrik Namgyal. Very cool!
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Re HH Trijang Rinpoche, I have just read this which Lama Zopa said about him:
"The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him. That’s absolutely shameful. Therefore, the people around him have to think very extensively. In his previous life he performed incredibly holy actions; therefore, his present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light."
Even though Lama Zopa's stance is against Shugden, he still saw HH Trijang Rinpoche as such. If only others can see it too.
We need to highlight this issue to the world of Buddhists. How can such a thing happen within the Tibetan community?? It is really absurd, but then again, what's new with the TGIE?
They create controversies which the Tibetans themselves find it hard to believe or abide by. What's new in the event this pulls through? Who's gonna get the sh*t(sorry for the language) in the end? Wouldn't it be His Holiness that would have to step up to cover their sorry as*es? (sorry again)
Has it not been enough damage caused within the community, religion and system as a whole?
Even high Lamas such as His Eminence Lama Zopa is speaking up against such an absurd action. I think the rest of the world should do something to preserve the teachings of the Buddha and especially this holy Lineage of Gaden!
H1N1
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Re HH Trijang Rinpoche, I have just read this which Lama Zopa said about him:
"The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him. That’s absolutely shameful. Therefore, the people around him have to think very extensively. In his previous life he performed incredibly holy actions; therefore, his present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light."
Even though Lama Zopa's stance is against Shugden, he still saw HH Trijang Rinpoche as such. If only others can see it too.
We need to highlight this issue to the world of Buddhists. How can such a thing happen within the Tibetan community?? It is really absurd, but then again, what's new with the TGIE?
They create controversies which the Tibetans themselves find it hard to believe or abide by. What's new in the event this pulls through? Who's gonna get the sh*t(sorry for the language) in the end? Wouldn't it be His Holiness that would have to step up to cover their sorry as*es? (sorry again)
Has it not been enough damage caused within the community, religion and system as a whole?
Even high Lamas such as His Eminence Lama Zopa is speaking up against such an absurd action. I think the rest of the world should do something to preserve the teachings of the Buddha and especially this holy Lineage of Gaden!
H1N1
Lama zopa ? is standing up as well ? Do you have any evidence of this ?
I find it highly unlikely The FPMT is far to subserviant to the DL.
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It is truly awful that such an attained Master who dedicated His life to benefit us lifetime after lifetime could be treated this way. It is even more frightening to imagine that these events, directly or indirectly, hinders the current incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche from continuing His work to spread pure Dharma so that Dharma will stay longer for the benefit of sentient beings.
There are thoughts that the importance of Guru devotion comes from sincere practice and the removal of Trijang Rinpoche’s name mantra, images etc. is not of utmost importance. I partly agree with this thought. However, what I find worrisome is the severe COLLECTIVE negative karma we are collecting in samsara with such actions.
Clean Guru samaya is the foundation for successful Vajrayana practice. Without clean Guru samaya, how could one consider keeping the 3 sets of vows? With broken vows, how can one believe that negative karma is purified and positive karma for attainments could be gained? With no attainments, how can we think of controlling rebirth and enlightenment? This chain reaction is terrifying.
Additionally, the accumulation of so much collective negative karma can be seen as a cause that quickens the end of Dharma age. With this, we are in a rapid downward journey to the Dark Age.
Therefore, it may “just” be a name but the significance may be more than fathomable. Furthermore, if it is just a name, why don’t we just leave it there and not hasten the already swift degeneration of our time?
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Being trapped in samsara is definitely a clear sign that we all have collective bad karma. And every single moment we spend in samsara is designed to collect more bad karma. The only way is what the Great Masters have done and this is something I have begun to seriously contemplate on, it is no wonder the Great Masters keep stressing on renunciation.
They have all chosen the life of monastic vows and studies, and not be actively living in samsara. It is no wonder that all High reincarnated Lamas must be found at a young age and begin their studies in the monastery. It is not to deny anyone of anything that is valuable but really to save them all from everything that is contaminated, and will contaminate them further.
Hence, the only way out is total renunciation from samsara - of the body, speech and mind. And to start and end with the mind is really the hardest of all.
Now, more than ever, I have come to respect monks even more. They truly understand where the exit door lies.
A whole lot of us are still trapped inside and thinking that the little Dharma that we get will free us in every sense of the word.
The world needs more GREAT MASTERS. We truly do, and we need to really value them, honour them and remember them with every breath we take.
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Re HH Trijang Rinpoche, I have just read this which Lama Zopa said about him:
"The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him. That’s absolutely shameful. Therefore, the people around him have to think very extensively. In his previous life he performed incredibly holy actions; therefore, his present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light."
Even though Lama Zopa's stance is against Shugden, he still saw HH Trijang Rinpoche as such. If only others can see it too.
y
Even high Lamas such as His Eminence Lama Zopa is speaking up against such an absurd action. I think the rest of the world should do something to preserve the teachings of the Buddha and especially this holy Lineage of Gaden!
H1N1
Lama zopa ? is standing up as well ? Do you have any evidence of this ?
I find it highly unlikely The FPMT is far to subserviant to the DL.
Zach, I think HarryNephew refers specifically to this instance when Lama Zopa speaks up for Trijang Rinpoche's good qualities and notes how terrible it would be if he "is hidden away" which is practically what is happening now. Indirectly, it could be seen as "standing up"... though more in the sense of defending Trijang Rinpoche (and therefore DS practitioners?) than as a challenge.
I do not know what FPMT's policy is as a whole or even as individual centres, but what has struck me about the explanations I've read of Lama Zopa, his stances is very respectful towards the dalai lama and encourages people to not practice DS out of respect to the dalai lama etc but on the other hand, I have not heard him speak badly or offensively in any way against DS. The stance is more in deference and respect to DL than to bash DS, which is quite a different view that what is more commonly propagated against DL supporters.
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Re HH Trijang Rinpoche, I have just read this which Lama Zopa said about him:
"The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him. That’s absolutely shameful. Therefore, the people around him have to think very extensively. In his previous life he performed incredibly holy actions; therefore, his present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light."
Even though Lama Zopa's stance is against Shugden, he still saw HH Trijang Rinpoche as such. If only others can see it too.
y
Even high Lamas such as His Eminence Lama Zopa is speaking up against such an absurd action. I think the rest of the world should do something to preserve the teachings of the Buddha and especially this holy Lineage of Gaden!
H1N1
Lama zopa ? is standing up as well ? Do you have any evidence of this ?
I find it highly unlikely The FPMT is far to subserviant to the DL.
Zach, I think HarryNephew refers specifically to this instance when Lama Zopa speaks up for Trijang Rinpoche's good qualities and notes how terrible it would be if he "is hidden away" which is practically what is happening now. Indirectly, it could be seen as "standing up"... though more in the sense of defending Trijang Rinpoche (and therefore DS practitioners?) than as a challenge.
I do not know what FPMT's policy is as a whole or even as individual centres, but what has struck me about the explanations I've read of Lama Zopa, his stances is very respectful towards the dalai lama and encourages people to not practice DS out of respect to the dalai lama etc but on the other hand, I have not heard him speak badly or offensively in any way against DS. The stance is more in deference and respect to DL than to bash DS, which is quite a different view that what is more commonly propagated against DL supporters.
Thank u HD for pointing my intent out. Indeed at this juncture all Lamas owe their kindness to the great Holiness Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang for all direct and indirect transmissions of the Dharma under the glorious parasol of Je Tsongkhapa's incomparable Dharma of Gaden. Where has this spirit of protecting our lineage gone? Are we not to stay true and loyal to what we practice? Let alone what we preach?
C'mon people, speak up!!!
It is time we petition the high Lamas of our time to speak from compassion in all the aspects to bring out the truth of DS! It will be one way to usher in the time of our Lord Dharma and Protector.
Let's start listing down the Dharma centres and monastries which have association with Dorje Shugden in the past and ask them to compassionately bring this subject up to the public.
H1N1
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On the subject of Lama zopa i had an odd dream where he died last night... :'(
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Lama zopa ? is standing up as well ? Do you have any evidence of this ?
I find it highly unlikely The FPMT is far to subserviant to the DL.
Dear Zach,
Lama Zopa is not 'standing up' for Shugden. He has been advocating that members of FPMT not practice Shugden but his reasoning is interesting. He supports the ban because of the Dalai Lama's achievements and influence.
In Lama Zopa's Advice book (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1166), it is quite clear what Lama Zopa thinks. I quote:
"Therefore, it becomes very important to support His Holiness and to fulfil His Holiness’ wishes. For that reason, Kopan Monastery stopped doing this practice. This was done for His Holiness. This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Zong Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil."
With relations to abandoning one's Guru, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Lama Zopa said this:
"A student wrote to Rinpoche saying that he had forsaken one of his gurus, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The student said that he was not keeping his vows and was aware of the negative karma that could result from these actions. Rinpoche answered as follows.
Once you have made a Dharma connection with the virtuous friend, your guru, you cannot give up this relationship unless the guru himself or herself says, “Don’t come,” or “Don’t regard me as your guru.”
By giving up Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, you have created heavy negative karma in this life. Since you haven’t given me up, I suggest that you confess to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso about what happened, and devote yourself again to this virtuous friend."
Lama Zopa calls Geshe Kelsang Gyatso "this virtuous friend".. while the TGIE has called him the devil incarnate (ok my own words but you know the idea)..
It is these subtle ways that Lama Zopa expresses support for Shugden while towing the Dalai Lama line.
I hope this helps, Zach.
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It is these subtle ways that Lama Zopa expresses support for Shugden while towing the Dalai Lama line.
I hope this helps, Zach.
Elsewhere in the same speech, Lama Zopa clearly states several times that Dorje Shugden is a worldly ghost.
This can hardly be characterized as 'support' for Dorje Shugden if you think about it.
Lama Zopa is trying to give advice to help practitioners avoid breaking their guru devotion.
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It is these subtle ways that Lama Zopa expresses support for Shugden while towing the Dalai Lama line.
I hope this helps, Zach.
Elsewhere in the same speech, Lama Zopa clearly states several times that Dorje Shugden is a worldly ghost.
This can hardly be characterized as 'support' for Dorje Shugden if you think about it.
Lama Zopa is trying to give advice to help practitioners avoid breaking their guru devotion.
I believe that Lama Zopa is trying to be politically correct but he is quite inconsistent in his referral to DS as a worldly ghost. I think it's great that Lama Zopa advises people to keep their guru devotion - because the Dalai lama's edict is effectively telling people to break their guru devotion by abandoning a practice given by their guru. In that sense, i feel Lama Zopa is being supportive.
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It is these subtle ways that Lama Zopa expresses support for Shugden while towing the Dalai Lama line.
I hope this helps, Zach.
Elsewhere in the same speech, Lama Zopa clearly states several times that Dorje Shugden is a worldly ghost.
This can hardly be characterized as 'support' for Dorje Shugden if you think about it.
Lama Zopa is trying to give advice to help practitioners avoid breaking their guru devotion.
I believe that Lama Zopa is trying to be politically correct but he is quite inconsistent in his referral to DS as a worldly ghost. I think it's great that Lama Zopa advises people to keep their guru devotion - because the Dalai lama's edict is effectively telling people to break their guru devotion by abandoning a practice given by their guru. In that sense, i feel Lama Zopa is being supportive.
yes, I agree, it is inspiring that even in the heat of the controversy Lama Zopa has the courage to support true Buddhist views even when it puts him in an awkward position to do so.
Though it's true that, as you say, in a sense he is being supportive, I'm afraid I can't agree he is being in any way supportive of Shugden. I think that's going too far and gives Lama Zopa a sympathetic look that he actually does not earn in his speech about Dorje Shugden or his treatment of practitioners, instituting the ban in his centers. Shameful behaviour, really.
On the other hand, to your point, he also did put in a line suggesting that it would be very heavy negative karma if one did critisize and DS were a Buddha, so maybe you have a point. Can't remember the actual line, it's been a while.
expresses support for Shugden while towing the Dalai Lama line.
The expression you want here is actually toeing the line and refers to placing your toes right on a line such as a starting line or other demarcation. It's funny how we can so easily misunderstand idioms even after hearing them literally hundreds of times. In a strange turn of events, I just learned earlier this evening that the word is "somersault," not "sombersalt" with a "b." I've been saying it with that "b" sound my whole life, never caught it.
cheers.
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Lama zopa ? is standing up as well ? Do you have any evidence of this ?
I find it highly unlikely The FPMT is far to subserviant to the DL.
Dear Zach,
Lama Zopa is not 'standing up' for Shugden. He has been advocating that members of FPMT not practice Shugden but his reasoning is interesting. He supports the ban because of the Dalai Lama's achievements and influence.
In Lama Zopa's Advice book ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1166[/url]), it is quite clear what Lama Zopa thinks. I quote:
"Therefore, it becomes very important to support His Holiness and to fulfil His Holiness’ wishes. For that reason, Kopan Monastery stopped doing this practice. This was done for His Holiness. This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Zong Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil."
With relations to abandoning one's Guru, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Lama Zopa said this:
"A student wrote to Rinpoche saying that he had forsaken one of his gurus, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The student said that he was not keeping his vows and was aware of the negative karma that could result from these actions. Rinpoche answered as follows.
Once you have made a Dharma connection with the virtuous friend, your guru, you cannot give up this relationship unless the guru himself or herself says, “Don’t come,” or “Don’t regard me as your guru.”
By giving up Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, you have created heavy negative karma in this life. Since you haven’t given me up, I suggest that you confess to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso about what happened, and devote yourself again to this virtuous friend."
Lama Zopa calls Geshe Kelsang Gyatso "this virtuous friend".. while the TGIE has called him the devil incarnate (ok my own words but you know the idea)..
It is these subtle ways that Lama Zopa expresses support for Shugden while towing the Dalai Lama line.
I hope this helps, Zach.
Certainly is interesting kate...But non the less many of his students and Lama yeshes where and still are Shugden practitoners what does that say about the person who institutes as ban based on Non Dharmic politics...It is a little like of the story where a Non Buddhist says to a practitoner to give up his refuge, He refused is a killed and immediatly reborn in the higher realms...Apart from its the opposite. :-\
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I agree with what Kate wrote.
I think High Lamas have to be skillful in their ways and means of NOT going against DL and TGIE. Their subtle ways speak the loudest. Subtlety does not necessarily mean weak or unsupportive. Sometimes the most obvious acts or ways may not produce much effect, and may not necessarily say anything at all.
I am sure we are used to people who speak the "loudest" and say a lot, but yet convey nothing. Nothing of value, that is.
The High Lamas have much to lose when they speak out so openly. There are many other monks under their care and responsibility. Not everyone are able to endure harsh living conditions. Some people can, and kudos to them. But we cannot discriminate against those who cannot either. We are not living their lives and we are not subject to their everyday conditions. So, it is very difficult to judge from where we stand or sit.
I am very sure when DL passes away (I say this with great repsect), we will the truth behind all these farce.
The shadow play will be over then.
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The High Lamas have much to lose when they speak out so openly. There are many other monks under their care and responsibility. Not everyone are able to endure harsh living conditions. Some people can, and kudos to them. But we cannot discriminate against those who cannot either. We are not living their lives and we are not subject to their everyday conditions. So, it is very difficult to judge from where we stand or sit.
I am very sure when DL passes away (I say this with great repsect), we will the truth behind all these farce.
The shadow play will be over then.
good point.