dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lineageholder on May 13, 2010, 12:20:03 AM
-
Hello friends,
Want to see the latest in evil propaganda? Here ya go:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cuckoo-Peacock-Palace-Tradition-Buddhism/dp/1906791546/r%5C%3Cbr%3Eef=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273664358&sr=1-1
it says "...this book provides a detailed study of the dogmas, doctrines and politics which have blighted the Tibetan religio-political world for the last three and a half centuries.". I don't think he's talking about the Dalai Lamas, unfortunately, but if he had any wisdom he would be ::)
Bring it on!
-
Hello friends,
Want to see the latest in evil propaganda? Here ya go:
[url]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cuckoo-Peacock-Palace-Tradition-Buddhism/dp/1906791546/r%5C%3Cbr%3Eef=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273664358&sr=1-1[/url]
it says "...this book provides a detailed study of the dogmas, doctrines and politics which have blighted the Tibetan religio-political world for the last three and a half centuries.". I don't think he's talking about the Dalai Lamas, unfortunately, but if he had any wisdom he would be ::)
Bring it on!
bringing daft arguments out into the open is a good thing.
-
Hello friends,
Want to see the latest in evil propaganda? Here ya go:
[url]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cuckoo-Peacock-Palace-Tradition-Buddhism/dp/1906791546/r%5C%3Cbr%3Eef=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273664358&sr=1-1[/url]
it says "...this book provides a detailed study of the dogmas, doctrines and politics which have blighted the Tibetan religio-political world for the last three and a half centuries.". I don't think he's talking about the Dalai Lamas, unfortunately, but if he had any wisdom he would be ::)
Bring it on!
The Amazon listing is teetering on the brink of libel in the Description.
As it is a direct attack on the NKT as a legal entity I hope the book will be very closely read and any necessary legal action taken for any unsubstantiated and damaging content. This statement is pretty close, but carefully phrased:
''Since the NKT is certainly among the West's most controversial Neo-Buddhist Movements, members of New Religious Movement and Cult Watching groups should also find the work helpful, both in terms of understanding the history of the group itself, as well as in distinguishing factors common to various NRMs, sects and cults. ''
I love the 'Neo-Buddhist' label - even the author of this book places the tradition as dating from the 18th Century in the case of Shugden. This makes the NKT 'Neo-Buddhist' - for ...... adhering to an ancient tradition. Hmmm. If the book reflects such tripe, it will only attract those who are already anti-NKT and who will see it as justification of their equally illogical whinges.
-
Yeah, I think the guy's sailing close to the wind legally. His name rings a bell, I think he might be a person I came across a few years ago who had an obsessive grudge not just against the NKT but also other 'new' Buddhist movements such as the FWBO, anyone familiar with him?
-
OMB (Oh my Buddha)... tit for tat? But they couldn't get enough sponsorship so it's like more than three times the price of the Great Deception?
Well, if this book brings the controversy back into the limelight again so people don't forget about Dorje Shugden, at least that's a good thing. Someone said - what's worse than being talked about is not being talked about... and i feel that DS has faded away on the international scene while the persecution in the monasteries and the refugee camps continues.
Maybe as a result of this book, people will do some research on their own and find this website, READ and gain some knowledge for themselves.
Yes, I'm always optimistic.
-
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3556
I am New Here – A step by step starter kit
STEP 1 : BACKGROUND
Dorje Shugden, the Indestructible power of the enlightened mind
Who is Dorje Shugden?
An emanation of Manjushri, the enlightened Buddha of Wisdom. He manifests as a Protector who removes obstacles, protects us and our loved ones and grants our wishes quickly.
His lineage
As a direct emanation of Manjushri, he has manifested as many renowned figures throughout history, such as :
• Lord Dulzin, who built Gaden Monastery
• Panchen Sonam Drakpa, whose renowned teachings are still studied in monasteries today
• The legendary Chinese emperor, Kangxi
• Practiced all over the world and very revered in China.
• Practiced in many grand monasteries and also by laypeople everywhere.
Read more here: Lineage
Why does he look this way?
Learning about iconography is a great way to discover any deity’s nature, function, and the methods that are applied in their practice.
With beauty and power the following excerpts (in quotation marks) from prayers and praises to Gyalchen Dorje Shugden express via his outer appearance his inner intent and wishes.
“Although you outwardly exhibit the haughty manner of a terrifier to conquer enemies of Lozang the Victor’s teachings, you are, in nature, that very Manjushri Yamantaka; with the supreme, unsurpassed devotion.”
“In the middle of a dark wind-swept wisdom fire, on lotus and sun, and an enemy-trampling, frightening, watchful lion is the supreme heart jewel of Dharma protectors, Dorje Shugden, the mighty King. Monk robes beautifying his body, wearing a domed golden hat, his hands hold wisdom sword and enemy heart. Smiling at practitioners, he destroys enemies and obstructers with a wrathful look.”
“Smiling with ruby complexion of affection and compassion, elegant in whatever emanation of wrath, passion, or smiling peace, the instant one remembers the limitless secrets of your body, all needs and desires are granted, to you I praise. Your razor sword of superior wisdom rips through the foe, samsara, and you hold the heart of great bliss which slaughters the extreme of nirvana; to you who, for the glory of infinite migrators, shows signs of the skilful means, which have arisen from extremes of both samsara and nirvana, I offer praise. The system of Nagarjuna, the highest view, free from extremes, and the supreme behaviour of vinaya, the code of conduct of the Buddha; as an instruction to migrators that one should practice thus, you are adorned by the domed hat and saffron robes, to you I praise.”
-
For As Long As the Winds Blow
The Grass Grows
The Dharma Will Flow!
-
Raven Hatchlings Hop From Branch to Tree
Gripping with Talons
They Squawk and Squeeze
Papi circles the Tall Trees
Until They are Safe Again in the Nest
A Storm Approaches
The Sky is Inky Black
With Hope of Pacific Rain Showers
The Hatchlings as We Are Secure In Their Nest
Until Tomorrow or the Next Day
They Will Take Flight
As We Will Fight
To Preserve the Pure Pristine Teachings of Lord Je T' Song Khapa
The Lineage That Comes Directly From Lord Buddha
I Know That Ravens Are Strong. Courageous, Intelligent, Sensitive,Curious Beings
Always Dressed In Their Best
As All Of You Don the Protection of the Supreme Dharma Protector,
Shri Dorje Shugden!
His Devoted Are Protected With Great Bliss
There Is Nothing to Fear
-
Around these parts, people ride Bulls and Broncos and Brandish Large Silver Belt Buckles
We Drill the Earth and Harnass the Winds
Once, We get a grip on whatever it is,
We Never Let Go
We've latched onto a SideWinder,
A Nasty little Devil!
They Coil and Spit
But have No Bite
Like this Lama called Dalia
We've got a Hold of Him
We Will Squeeze Him Until
He Relents
Now he just Hide Himself In His Self Pity
Poor Norbu Boys
Born a century too Late
To Rule and Fight
While they tortured others
To the Potala Delights
-
Good news: Gary Beesley's (libellous) book has been withdrawn by the author and the publisher. The publicity will be removed from Amazon and other sites over the next 30 days.
-
Good news: Gary Beesley's (libellous) book has been withdrawn by the author and the publisher. The publicity will be removed from Amazon and other sites over the next 30 days.
Näh.
Bummer, in a sense.
The published outline of the book seemed to repeat the "official DS-story", with all the usual lies and misrepresentations, but the other stuff might have been interesting. (Really, truly, for sure, please-do-not-throw-rotten-tomatoes-at-me ).
You see: There shall not be Dharma or Buddhism in the West unless the practitioners learn to disagree and discuss. If there is no internal Buddhist ranting, there will be no Buddhism.
-
Zhalmed Pawo is right. For us lay practitioners who do not have the chance to debate like the monks do in their monasteries, forums like this one serve a similar purpose. The difference is that the monks debate on Buddhist philosophy but here, anything can be discussed. I notice that there is a lot of "internal debate" going on too, besides the "verbal martial art" (Michael Palin in "Himalaya"), so it is a very healthy exercise.
-
Yeah, part of me was disapointed too, but bilge is bilge & where was the debate going to happen with this with the public at large? Proper debate needs discipline, otherwise you're just in a fire fight, which is partly what we have with the DL issue, including on this site at times. I don't have a problem with diagreeing with anyone & if the book had been released so be it, but I don't think sitting back & allowing blatant slander would have been good in this case.
-
In any event, we all have quite enough misinformation to "discuss" already without having to refute and argue with a whole bunch more lies. The book dissolving into emptiness has saved us some precious time.
-
I note that the NKTWorld tabloid blog conveniently left out the bold part below in their 'report':
Dear Colleagues
It is with sincere regret that I write to inform you that, due to the threat of legal action from the New Kadampa Tradition, and in light of the inadequacies of UK libel law, I have been forced to withdraw my forthcoming book, ‘A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace: The Decline of Tradition in 21st Century Western Buddhism and the Rise of the New Kadampa Tradition’ from publication.’ I appreciate that many of you will be very disappointed by this decision, a disappointment that I share with you from the very depths of my heart. However, as a Buddhist layman with a wife and children, I must place the short and long term well being of my family at the very fore of my considerations. Having raised myself up from poverty through dedication, hard work and the blessings of the Buddhas, I could not bear to impose an undeserved life of poverty on my wife and children when I leave this world. Therefore, for the sake of my family, as well as the good name of the Dharma, I have made this difficult, indeed heart wrenching decision. The NKTs legal representative kindly reminded me that, as Buddhists it is very important that we try to resolve our problems in a peaceful manner. I hope the withdrawal of the book is an indication of my intention to observe such advice in my dealings with others from now on.
With respect and sincere regret for any hurt or disappointment I may have caused.
Yours in the Dharma
The layman Gary Beesley
-
Well, while the book might be crap, and therefore it would seem sensible to wipe out the crap before it hits the public fan, I think there is a rather problematic tendency at work here: Avoidance of crap.
All Buddhist traditions and organizations operating in the West seem to do this. They seek to isolate themselves from all crap. They cannot handle any crap. They avoid the crap. This is utterly harmful tendency, and will lead into Buddhist Institutions isolating and fossilizing themselves. This tendency seems to come from Asian Buddhism, it must be added. The outcome of this is that Organized Buddhism will become fossilized, irrelevant and meaningless, as can be observed from Asian countries. Dead formalism is the future of all the existing Traditions, if this tendency is not countered in time.
Just look at the various issues raging in the Buddhist World. Sex scandals of many Tibetan High Lamas, Karmapa-issue, Diamonway-issues, FWBO-antics, Zen-lineality-issues, Soka Gakkai Pure Land issue, and whatever. There seems to be a general unease with handling these things, as they seem to be just crap and crappy issues. If there is a troubling issue, when have you seen the disputing parties share a space and admit that they do not agree? To even agree on the disagreement, and accepting the opposing points of view, without the other becoming "the other"? When have two practitioners continued to treat each other as practitioners while simply agreeing that there are some deep issues and rifts between, and then nevertheless continued to practice together? Whenever crap comes, people avoid it all, by distancing themselves from the other party, or throwing the other party away. There is no dialogue there, only two monologues shouted with megaphones over the fence, for a fence there is, never a shared space - sometimes even literally, as we know. Then "our party" is clean, and over the fence there is just dirt, crap, faults, and confusion. No need to talk after that, is there. This is the current situation of Buddhism. We all isolate ourselves into our own little compartments.
Because we Buddhists cannot live with crap, we are crap ourselves.
-
Don't agree with that. There's no reasonable dispute to be had here, we've tried, are trying - crap abounds! Slander laws exist for a reason, yes they can be mis-used, but there's a time & place. I think we've found it here.
-
I may not know much about UK slander/libel laws, but if you're writing a book and you've got the facts to back it up, why back out now? Surely Mr. Beesley thought long and hard about the NKT's possible legal response, or had it not crossed his mind before he sought out a publisher and started advertising the book's release on cult-watch websites? If there were slander/libel issues, wouldn't Arena Books as the publisher have been the first one to turn it down?
-
Oxford University Press turned the book down as it had no sources etc. Other publishers may also have turned it down, I don't know how many Gary Beesley approached. Arena are so-called "self publishers", which means that Gary Beesley was paying them to publish the book, not the other way around. Self publishers are not stringent when it comes to checking the manuscripts, they'll publish anything on the whole. There were very scant sources given in the manuscript and the basic premise, that the NKT are in bed with the Chinese, was deeply flawed.
-
Has anybody seen more from the book than the Table of content ?
-
This forum is degenerating :'(
-
This forum is degenerating :'(
How so?
-
Hi Lhakpa Gyaltshen,
you deleted the message which was the reason for me saying that this forum is degenerating.
Thank you
I think, the way you write in this forum is not apropriate for Dorje Shugden followers.
I feel sad, that this forum is degenerating. I am sure that it is one of the main source for people investigating on the Dorje Shugden issue.
-
Can we see Godi's deleted message please? If there is no freedom of speech here, people will leave. I noticed many have already.
-
I read Lhakpa Gyaltshen's post a moment ago. Now it's gone. What is happening? Anyway, I didn't understand a word of it. One needs to be very patient on this forum. Very good training for practising Buddhists.
-
There´s no Godi´s message deleted. It´s Thom´s, self deleted.
Nothing new. Our friend does that, this has nothing to do with freedom of speech being threatened. There are times when he prefers to erase what he wrote.
Please, let's not make a big thing from something that is just an established routine.
It´s true that many people are falling silent. Maybe some are just getting tired of talking about such an unfortunate issue as the one created by the Dalai Lama.
-
Trinley Kelsang, my friend, any Tibetan military resistance was condemned by the population numbers. Not to forget the lack of preparation, except for the guerrillas trained by the CIA. A handful of people. Do you remember the numbers of the Chinese population? Had it not been for the USA ending that guerrilla program, the Tibetans might´ve been erased from the map of Tibet.
The sad thing is rather what you point out: that marxism wiped out religion, and not only Buddhism, from the Iron Curtain in Europe to the confines of Asia. But it still is somehow fashionable to proclaim oneself to be a Marxist. It does not dammage anybody´s reputation. Religion? I don´t think religion has been very important in this issue. Rather, it seems to have been sacrificed. Probably, as you say, to the institution of the DL.
The other sad thing is the meaningful role that the Tibetan freedom fighters played in the Dalai Lama´s escape. Of course he knows that they were Protector´s devotees, for the most part. His lack of gratitude towards those who sacrificed their lives for him has been among the most unfortunate part of his actions.
Unfortunate, yes, but probably politically motivated. Don´t forget that his second great wave of attacks against the Dorje Shugden practitioners came right after his brother Norbu, a practitioner himself, had started his March for Independence, toward the end of 1995, in complete opposition to the Dalai Lama who had already forsaken Tibetan independence.
We tend here to talk much from a religious point of view. But it´s important to look into the political events behind the ban if we really wish to understand it.
-
All right, I understand the necessity to self-delete. I do that sometimes.
I think it is sad that Gary Beasley had to withdraw his book. The NKT should not have felt threatened by it. At least let it be published and see what the author says. How do you know it's crap before you read it? Because the other person does not belong to your camp?
And why is there now an "Asian Buddhism" and a "western Buddhism"? Buddhism is Buddhism! Who is being sectarian now?
-
That's easy to say, but what about all the people who lose faith because of such writings? I'm on record here saying the Catholics shot themselves in the foot covering up the child abuse scandal, but that had a valid basis of i'mputation. The NKT kept quiet for ten years about all the crap that was thrown at it. Enough's enough - people's spiritual paths are being needlessly damaged through the strong encouragement of doubts tending away from the truth & plain old deluded doubt. Having something in print lends it some credibility so this book would have had extra power to hurt people. Protecting your reputation is not necessarily a worldly concern (Geshe Kelsang has been pretty fearless in putting his reputation on the line repeatedly to protect the lineage), it can be done without attachment in order to benefit others. How do we know the book was tripe? The guy's got form, lots of it. & the Amazon write up was kind of revealing in that regard. I believe the production of that book would have brought no benefit & much harm. There will be critical books printed in the future about the NKT, but out right insanely biased lies have no value, especially now. Is that a value judgement? Yup. One the NKT is confident the courts would agree with. Should anyone be allowed to print absolutely anything they want in the name of free speech? English libel law doesn't think so & neither do I.
Anyway, that's all I'm going to say on the matter. I hope this post sounds reasonable, I might not agree with all the views here but at least we can have a reasonable discussion. No need to call the lawyers :)
-
Hi,
has anybody seen more from the book than the Table of content or does anybody know someone else who has seen more than the TOC ?
The reason for my question is that I can not really believe that someone is writing a book for weeks and weeks and after hundreds of hours of work then just stopps publisihing the book.
-
The reason why the book should not be published is because it contains false information that defames the reputation of the New Kadampa Tradition, such as the NKT is in league with the PRC. Where does freedom of speech end and being able to publish defamatory lies begin? This is the reason why the libel laws exist.
The book also appeared to be repeating the false claims published by Dreyfus and others about Dorje Shugden and the history of the practice, thus further 'demonising' this Deity and assisting the Dalai Lama in accomplishing his agenda of destroying the practice.
It's also clear from the title headings that it was not neutral -for example,
The Arrogation of Manjushri Institute: While the Cat’s Away
In case you're not sure (and I wasn't), 'arrogation' means 'To take or claim for oneself without right'. The implication is that Geshe Kelsang stole Manjushri Institute from Lama Yeshe which is completely false. There was a vote of the Residents who all wanted Geshe Kelsang to stay and be their Resident Teacher. It also became clear that the FPMT managers were going to sell Manjushri Institute to fund other activities, something the community did not want, so to protect the centre and community they eventually split from the FPMT. I doubt very much from the title of this chapter that such information (including the fact that the FMPT were raising money through drug smuggling) would be mentioned. This is what really happened:
http://www.newkadampatruth.org/smear-geshe-kelsang-gyatso-stole-manjushri-institute-from-the-fpmt
This being the case, why should NKT allow lies about the 'arrogation' of Manjushri Institute be spread about? Allowing lies to be spread in the name of 'free speech' is not helpful. Anyone can say, for example, 'Dorje Shugden is a demon' or 'NKT is in league with the Chinese Government against the Dalai Lama'. They are free to say this, but since it's a wrong view, it's not helpful to spread it around. The various accusations made against Dorje Shugden, NKT and the WSS by people who are misinformed or even malicious, as Middleway said, affects people's faith and therefore interferes with people's spiritual lives. We can therefore say that books containing these false claims are maras and every effort should be made to prevent such obstacles from arising.
-
Of course, none of those things are maras....
-
Middleway, Lineageholder, I agree with you. If a book filled with calumnies about your Lama, your Deity and your lineage can be avoided, it should be. If there are legitimate ways to stop such obstacles for the mind of others to arise then it´s very good to do it. I would say that not to stop such harmful book to appear would be a mistake. Lies, lies, lies ... basta! The nazis used as astute propaganda weapon the notion that you only need to repeat a lie enough number of times for it to become a truth. Also, in the world, there is this unfair view that if something bad is said of somebody ... then there must be some good reason behind it. So again, well done NKT lawyers!
-
I went to the website indicated by lineageholder. I understand a bit more now NKT's history. But at the same time I feel very sad because you have become very angry people. I respect your guru a lot and read his books. I'm sure many people have benefited from reading his books. I hope you will cultivate a peaceful state of mind and overcome your problems.
Just before I logged in, I was reading the last paragraph of the Preface to "Joyful Path of Good Fortune" and was thoroughly inspired by it. It is about practicing the Lamrim.
The Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso says: "By controlling our mind we can solve all our daily problems, and by gradually improving our daily practice of Lamrim we can advance from our present stage to the stage of a Bodhisattva. By progressing further we can become a fully enlightened being. This is the essential meaning of our human life."
-
Dear Midakpa,
Why do you say we have become very angry people?
-
I note that Gary Beesley has also been active in criticising the FWBO. Personally I appreciate constructive and honest criticism I think it helps organisations remain accountable to the wider society in which they exist. From this pov I liked Zhalmed P's article about crap :-)) but I do think the criticsm must have a basis in truth and think it would be sad to see another book trot out the same tired lies about Je Phabongkha, Dorje Shugden and Geshe Kelsang. Lies which I have seen first hand destroy peoples inner peace / path to wisdom.
Anyway, here's a quote by Bodhipaksa taken from the comments, to a review of a book by Sangharakshita, interesting to consider some parallels between these two popular and resolutely westernised presenters of Buddha's universal truths :
"I don’t think Sangharakshita has written anything in response to the critical information about him and the FWBO, although there is a video in which he discusses his sexual activities. I don’t think he’d dignify his fiercest critics with a response. There are three principle actors. There’s Mark Dunlop, who was formerly an Order member and who had a sexual relationship with Sangharakshita. Some time after the relationship ended he became increasingly bitter, and then he started his campaign. The second (the author of the FWBO Files) is Gary Beesley, who is a religious education teacher and Tibetan Buddhist. He’s never had any direct experience of the FWBO. His campaign isn’t just against the FWBO, but also against SGI and the NKT, and is a kind of personal crusade. The third is Jurgen Schnake, who runs fwbo-files.com. He also has no experience of the FWBO. Schnake has nakedly asked for money in return for ceasing his activities. I don’t think that was his initial motivation, which seems mainly to be mischievous. He’s quite happy to make stuff up, like claims that the FWBO is a branch of scientology. Unfortunately none of these people has any great regard for honesty or accuracy, and they’ll say anything if they think it helps damage the FWBO (Dunlop has accused the FWBO of murdering children, and I’ve mentioned Schanke’s alleged Scientology takeover). I’d be astonished if Sangharakshita was to address their often outlandish accusations. We’re dealing with “fake moon landing” psychology here."
from
http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/book-reviews/the-essential-sangharakshita
-
Also, in the world, there is this unfair view that if something bad is said of somebody ... then there must be some good reason behind it.
Where there's smoke... there's arson! :-\
-
But at the same time I feel very sad because you have become very angry people.
>:( >:(
HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT?!?! I WON"T PUT UP WITH THIS KIND OF TREATMENT ON THIS....oh...uh...
uh...I mean....
Why do you say that?
-
Where there's smoke... there's arson! :-\
:D
-
I visited the Wildmind website and read some articles and comments. The comment by Bodhipaksa is very interesting because he mentioned Gary Beesley. He thinks that it is "... all Sangharakshita's karma playing out (in conjunction with the karma of his critics)... If there was no Mark Dunlop there would quite probably be no Gary Beesley and no Jurgen Schnake".
By reacting to Gary Beesley's book, one is creating karma. Am I correct? Anger is a sign that one has no real understanding. Insight stops anger (Thich Nhat Hanh in "Anger", 2001). If you are not angry, then please accept my apologies.
-
By reacting to Gary Beesley's book, one is creating karma. Am I correct?
yes! If we react with loveliness, we create good karma, for example, stopping this poor man from slandering and increasing his negativity.
Anger is a sign that one has no real understanding.
I agree
Insight stops anger (Thich Nhat Hanh in "Anger", 2001).
I agree
If you are not angry, then please accept my apologies.
I personally become angry from time to time, but as I do not feel I am an "angry person," I do not feel that any apology is necessary.
I was just wondering if you might offer an explanation as to WHY it is you think we have become "angry people?"
Thanks for your time.
-
Dear Sangha,
I'm starting to work on dispelling the many misconceptions found on NKTWorld.org. I work at a print shop and printed the whole website out, and it came close to 700 pages! (albeit a lot of the same stuff over and over and over and over again...)
I went through and highlighted the stuff I want to address and came up with a "top 10" list of common misconceptions repeated more than once, which will appear as 10 separate blog posts. The first one is up now:
http://puremindpureworld.wordpress.com/2010/05/28/the-nkts-abuse-of-religious-freedom/
MJW
-
Dear Midakpa
To correctly identify anger several things must be present, principally the wish to harm and also that object one wishes to harm does not really exist in the way it appears. Normally the object is exaggeratted and appears to exist as inherently or truly unpleasent, meaning without any dependence on the mind (angry mind) that beholds it. There is no wish to harm any sentient being within the web site you visited, nor does it identify it's object falsely. Perhaps you would like to investigate the sight bearing these points in mind and the say if you think it is the product of an angry mind. I'd be very interested to read your findings :-)
With very best wishes
Robert
Btw here is a proper definition and a link to a very nice website dedicated to the subject of solving anger:
Anger is a deluded mind that focuses on an animate or inanimate object, feels it to be unattractive, exaggerates its bad qualities, and wishes to harm it
from:
http://www.anger-management-techniques.org/index.htm/
-
Dear Robert,
Thank you for your explanation on anger. I still have a lot to learn.
But I think there has been a misunderstanding regarding my comments. I was not referring to the website I visited when I made the comment on "angry people". I was referring to the people who reacted strongly to the publication of Gary Beesley's book, especially to those who engaged lawyers and threatened legal action. Please read Gary Beesley's letter in the NKTWorld tabloid blog posted by Emptymountains on May 21 2010 in this thread.
Dear Crazycloud,
I hope my explanation above has answered your question. By withdrawing his book, Gary Beesley is, consciously or unconsciously, cutting the karma between him and his enemies. Someone has to take the first step.
-
I was referring to the people who reacted strongly to the publication of Gary Beesley's book, especially to those who engaged lawyers and threatened legal action. Please read Gary Beesley's letter in the NKTWorld tabloid blog posted by Emptymountains on May 21 2010 in this thread.
Dear Crazycloud,
I hope my explanation above has answered your question. By withdrawing his book, Gary Beesley is, consciously or unconsciously, cutting the karma between him and his enemies. Someone has to take the first step.
Hey Midakpa
Actually it doesn't, as my question was largely rhetorical. I am hoping to indirectly show that "strong reaction" does not equal anger. If having a strong reaction were the same as anger, we would be doomed to always be mild, which would preclude us from engaging in the controlling and wrathful actions that are sometimes required.
So what if lawyers were engaged? Previous posters have elucidated well how allowing people to lie and slander is not good for anyone, so why not force them to stop doing illegal things like libel by using the laws of our country?
So what I was trying to point out was that you then tarred an entire group of people with the same mistaken brush.
I understand a bit more now NKT's history. But at the same time I feel very sad because you have become very angry people. I respect your guru a lot and read his books
Another error in your post is the statement that Mr Beesely is cutting the Karma between himself and his enemies. "Someone has to take the first step," you say. But Mr Beesely is avoiding being sued for libel knowing he has no case. This is no practice of offering the victory, this is a predator being scared off by the return of a parent. He is being assisted in avoiding the creation of truly miserable karma for himself. There is no doubt he has created a great deal of painful karma through his actions.
much respect and best wishes,
cc
-
"most telling the difference between NKT and the Dalai Lama. Facing criticism, NKT raises fists and screams into megaphones, the Dalai Lama chuckles."
Yeah - chuckling's all he does - to those in the West. To those in the monasteries he can be a bit more unpleasant. Dialogue isn't something he's interested in (we tried. And tried and tried...), hence the shouting... Do you think he heard us?
-
Dear Midakpa
Thank you for your reply and clarification - I also have a lot to learn. Regarding the letter I don't have anything to add following my earlier post in this thread. Only that there is no evidence that people from NKT acted out of anger. Even if u don't agree with their decision I think it's easy for anyone who knows the teachings of GKG to see the motivation was more likely compassion, trying to protect the author and spiritual practitioners from creating and experiencing more suffering. Do you agree this is a valid alternative explanation?
With very best wishes
Robert
-
Dear Robert,
I do accept your explanation and apologise to those who have been offended or hurt by my remarks. I didn't understand fully the background of this issue. Now after reading more, I'm beginning to understand why there are such strong sentiments.
I agree that it all boils down to motivation. If our motivation is pure, for example, if the NKT acted out of compassion, it's all right.
Thank you for your patience.
-
Thom, is it possible that you abstain from importing the horrors that are published out there about Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and the New Kadampa Tradition?
I know that you put that specific long text because you are named there, as Lhakpa Gyaltsen, but still, it's too much, we don't need to give them more space in the web than the one they already take.
Please?
-
Hi Midakpa
It's very considerate of you to apologise and it's wonderful to see how honest and sincere you are, but you might also be happy to know that I doubt very much that you hurt or offended anyone. It's quite right to express your concerns honestly and openly, especially on such fundamentally important points as: does a spiritual teacher and community who teach the faults of anger, respond to problems by getting angry? Of course if they do then it's unlikely that they could really be reliable.
The truth is no one can know anothers mind, my conclusion is based on faith in Geshe Kelsang and the NKT, this faith has arisen from experience and logical reasoning, relying on Buddha's advice regarding how to rely on the 3 Jewels. This faith gives me confidence that I do know the mind or intention of NKT - but it is a personal experience and I can't force anyone else to share it. I only wanted to describe to you my experience and line of thinking so you would have the opportunity to contemplate it and reach your own conclusion. I am naturally very uncomfortable with stopping people publishing anything. But as the action was legal, and as I have personally witnessed both the falsity of the books main claims and the destruction of people's spiritual lives that these endless smears create, I accept the decision.
Over many years I have checked again and again the teacher, teachings and sangha of the NKT and found them to be reliable and wise. In other words I have faith in the three Jewels and believe that NKT is suitable to embody the three jewels. This experience is something very precious, it is the root of the path and necessary before you can recieve the profound benefits of any Buddhist lineage. Everyone needs to develop it through their own wisdom and experience - guided by Buddha's teachings on reliance and faith. Because of this not everyone follows exactly the same presentation of Dharma. So of course you can always disagree with me or any one else in the NKT - but Buddhas advice is to do so with an open mind which is prepared to change if there are good reasons for doing so. I think you have already demonstrated this quality which shows you are very well qualified to follow a Buddhist path, and I rejoice in that and wish you great happiness and success from your practice!
With very best wishes
Robert
-
Dear Robert,
Thank you very much for your kind words. I will remember your words and practice well.
Midakpa