About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Admin on January 09, 2008, 08:27:24 PM

Title: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: Admin on January 09, 2008, 08:27:24 PM
(Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008)

Broadcaster: With strong emotion, Kalon Tripa (Tibetan Cabinet Minister) has urged the Three Seats of Gelugpa to cut off the relationship with Dholgyal (Dorje Shugden) in the future. Likewise, he has explained how important it is to implement the gist of relinquishing the relationship with Dholgyal directly, indirectly and thoroughly, base on Charter of Monastic Discipline of Gelugpa Sect. Furthermore, he spoke about the colorful contact between Dholgyal organization and China:

Kalon:  Whether you worship the worldly deity or not is an ordinary question. However, at the present situation, [the worship of shugden] has already became a political assignment relating to Tibetan Cause. People Republic of China thinks that some including Dholgyal followers are the best tool to employ to the opponent of the Dalai Lama, and [they] are supported with finance and property. They set up organization.  People's Republic of China states that she will meet the expenses if any (lama) who transmit Dholgyal practice is invited. Even if Dholgyal followers come there to receive the teaching and empowerment, people Republic of China say that she will meet their expenses.

Dholgyal followers make open and overt contact with People's Republic of China. And People's Republic of China manipulates Dholgyal followers. Is this alright, if everyone who has responsibility on accomplishing Tibetan Cause, remains paying no attention?  Meanwhile, [they] have engaged in violence and threatening. This is recorded in the account. It is not something whether you like or dislike.

Tibetan Government in Exile declared that it is not allowed to make spiritual contact with the Dalai Lama. Apart from that, we didn't make distinction of long and short in terms of any rights, be it in foreign countries or in Tibetan settlements. We have danger, but they say to Indian government from time to time that they have danger. Indian Government could not be deceived by [their] lies. They think if they tell lie like hill, they get truth like a yak animal. It is a work of taking advantage of opportunity.

What is the result after Amnesty International thoroughly investigated? What is the final news of National Human Rights of India? 
You all know this. Therefore, it has a problem in terms of religion. In terms of politics, [they] remain the worse tool for People's Republic of China. Along with that, I think it is very difficult if you still remain like fish and tadpoles together in the Three Seats of Gelugpa Tradition.
Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: Admin on January 09, 2008, 08:32:21 PM
Wouldn't it be wiser for the Tibetan Government to endorse the practice of Dorje Shugden, so that China would stop investing in Dorje Shugden?  ???
Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: a friend on January 10, 2008, 04:27:44 AM

You are assuming, dear Administrator, that wisdom was ever used in Dharamsala concerning this matter.
It's assuming a lot ...

Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: lodoe on January 10, 2008, 03:22:10 PM





Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: Alexis on January 10, 2008, 09:19:30 PM
These 12 monks are heroes.

I will dedicate my next Kangso to them!

May they be reborn in Tushita!
Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: Vajra on January 10, 2008, 10:40:08 PM
As the Admin says, it would be wiser (therefore better) to endorse the practice of Dorje Shugden.

If the problem of the freedom of Tibet is the connection between China and some supporters of DS, why the Dalai Lama does not lift the ban? China would not have any pretext to delay or banish the hope for a free Tibet.

But, on the other hand, actually the DS controversy is not a struggle or a problem of DS per se/itself, on the contrary, is that of a person or people who create the ban, the conflict, this is a mundane conflict. In reality, this is a political conflict.

Think about this: why before the ban of practice of DS there was not conflict between Tibetans??? Before this, all of them or most of them, lived in harmony, there was respect among the schools.

It is due to the ban of DS that all these conflics began to emerge. To think or conceive that Tibet is not yet free because of Dorge Shugden, in my opinion is stupid, is ludicrous, are assumptions of irresponsible and unwise people. The same it would have been with another protector or lama or deity or whoever or wahtever.

They cannot, the opponents of DS, think about karma??? Nothing in samsara lasts forever, entire nations are devasted because of bad karma or collective bad karma. Tibet is not yet free bucause of collective bad karma, the chinese invation to Tibet is due to karma also. Bad things that come to us are the returning of what comes out of ourselves. Sometimes there is nothing we can do to avoid bad karma. We have to accept what is really happening now.  Instead of blaming others and arguing many things, they have to create a consciousness of living in peace together, leaving people with their beliefs, no matter who deity or protector or lama, etc the follow as they, as practitioners, are founded in Lord Buddha's teachings in principle.

How wonderful it would be for all the tibetans and practitioners and non practitioners to regain or recover Tibet and leave in peace as there was before the ban. A great part of the Bhuddist world would be better if the ban is lifted, living in tolerance.

Why many of the protectors of Tibet or the protectors in Dharamsala, and the Dalai Lama himself (because he is Chenrezig) and other high lamas and Buddhas who were and are against Dorje Shugden have not defeated Him, making some wrathful pujas and so on???

What they want to do or who they want to defeat? The practitioners of DS or DS himself? If we stop practising DS, anyway He will continue to exist, or if DS is defeated we will continue to believe or have faith in Him. So what is the point finally? Stop the ban and promote tolerance and  freedom of cult and belief. We must, as practitioners of DS, respect the Dalai Lama and all the living creatures, embrace them all with love, no matter what they do. And of course they must love us and respetc our choice to believe in DS. We must live in peace in order to make a better Buddhist community and a better world to inhabit. Love and compassion are the better protections, not the conflicts.

There must be ignorant or bad intentioned people who "believe" in DS, as well as people who do not believe in DS, and quite the contrary. There is all in this world. But is is irresponsible that we or they speak about others in a general way saying that all DS supporters or non supporters are bad. Of course I feel bad and I am sad about that kind of assertions, because although I believe in DS and have His empowerment, I'm not a bad intentioned person, and I am convinced with faith about the benevolence, perfection, stainess and Buddhahood of Dorje Shugden.

With love
Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: Bodpa Lhakpa on January 11, 2008, 01:29:43 PM
Is Karma something that can be used so easily to describe/reason everything that people don't want to accept but have got no choise?  This sounds supporting what China/the invader/communist keeps telling that they are reprsenting the interests of menkind and they are to liberate all people suffering difficulties because of 'backwarded' cultures and all the religions are poison.... In this case, why should we fight for justice, freedom, culture perservation and so on. Just let the 'karma' goes the way how it supposed to go.

well, english hasn't yet been mastered well. sorry to cause a confusion or more.

Tashi Delek.   
Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: Vajra on January 11, 2008, 06:54:46 PM
Bodpa Lhakpa,

My intention was not to say that karma is the only reason, there are many reasons, situations, related phenomena, etc. Why do I want to support china? My friend, I´m Mexican, I´m not interested in China, I am very far far away from that countries; simply I consider and conceive that things could be done in a different way, changing our attitudes. My main point is to express or stress that if Tibet is noy yet free because of a connection Between China, Dorge Shugden and DS supporters or due to Dorje Shugden itself, for me is stupid, irresponsible, and that many other things can be done to finish this conflict, instead of the ban of DS. I just invited to think many situations, not only karma.

Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: Alexis on January 11, 2008, 07:31:23 PM
In the Voice of Tibet website I saw that HH is proposing a referendum on 'Dholgyel'.

All four schools are now getting their say in gelug affaires and practices.

Next year we could hold a referendum on Dzogchen or Vajrakilaya.

I guess this is a proof the governement in exile is a real democracy. They are even holding a very democratic referendum on the subject. Who can be against a referendum?

Seriously, could you imagine a western politician proposing a referendum on any minority religion? eeeeeeeh! I think this reflects to a high degree the microcosm in which the governement in exile operates.

And how can the Indian Gov. keep quiet on this?

Check it out:
Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: thubwang on January 11, 2008, 11:13:16 PM
Hello Friends of DS, Over the years this problem around the DS practice has gone from worse to bad, the thing what strikes me is: in the western society we are living with religous freedom. To merely state in public that one has to abandon this practice, which bears the sign of emulating the feelings to develop the mind of Bodhicitta and recomments to wish all beings well, therefore one can classify this as a genuing practice, seems to me an evading of human rights. Second, to draw the westerners in and cause in dharma organisations a bias as to and from, whithout a decent and proper explanation as what this is all about , to me is creating, to say it in bold words A SCHISM. The westerners are an highly intelligent people with a long respectable tradition of thinking and articulation. I have seen a lot of damage amongs the dharma practicioners from the east and west because of this. Westerners are not familiar whith the letheral style of thinking in the political correctness of the deep tibetan culture. The Dalai lama is a very respectable man of state and no doubt a very special bodhisattva, but to westernern DS friends the actual cause of the problem seems so remote and so hazy that the ones whom agree with abandoning the practice do so because of hear say. We are in the 21st century now we have walked on the moon, The DS mantra has been in orbit around Saturn and is broadcasted around the Jovian system now on one of the space probes as a message of world peace, Religious warfare is something of the dark middleages to us and highly damaging. We learn from the tantric heritage that the Buddha gave many teachings and practices to suit the time and age in which it was ripening and the practicioners. Perhaps this is a way to pacify china, let every leader in china develop bodhicitta as it says in the Kangso!, we would have a wonderful situation on our hands. we keep praying for worldpeace.
  lama thubwang ;)
Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: beggar on January 12, 2008, 05:31:57 PM

Dear Venerable Lama Thubwang,
thank you very much for your message which we are honoured to receive, and your clear, logical look -scientific so to speak-at things, which a lot of us understand is what the Buddha's teachings are about.
I didn't know that Dharmapala's mantra has been around Saturn and is broadcasted into outer space as we speak, but it makes it seem all the more ironic that the public are being fed with a media/information policy that appears indeed as medieval. So much so that it begins to remind me of another medieval phenomena - the inquisition, then and now it is enough to point an accusing finger and books burn... When books (statues, houses, etc) burn people soon follow. While the Tibetan governments quotes AI, monks are being expelled, and we heard more shocking news from South India... let us pray that these are the pains of birth.
The darkest hour is just before dawn, as they say.
As Lama and Sangha member you may appreciate the irony (or what?) of the fact that the final TEN days of HH Dalai Lama's teachings in Drepung were on texts written by PANCHEN SONAM DRAKPA, the amazing abbot of all three great Gelug monasteries, Gaden Tripa and author of 45 texts of which many are still in use today, who took rebirth as TULKU DRAKPA GYALTSEN who is, so to speak, the reason why we are all meeting here.
Hoping to hear more from you, and let us say a prayer today for those who have no more Sangha, no more monastery and nowhere to turn -

yours, beggar

Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: beggar on January 12, 2008, 07:02:04 PM
                                           UPDATE FROM SOUTH INDIA

Dear human beings everywhere who care about Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, freedom of speech and thought, goodwill and tolerance - the following was emailed to me by a companion today:

"Now the situation is degrading very rapidly. I learned that the message you received from Lode is not an exaggeration. With the Dalai Lama in Southern India all the monasteries are now under attack. Something happened unheard of: for the first time the Winter Retreat that reunites all of the main monasteries for a whole month of logic and debate was sabotaged by DSh's enemies, and it had to be stopped many days before the date of closure. Disobeying the orders of their disciplinarians and abbots, they refused to debate with DSh practitioners and even threw eggs against the Hall where the meetings were taking place. And guess what: the DL congratulated the troublemakers and scolded fiercely the guigous, abbots and other authorities that had tried to put an end to their bad behaviour. And now the DL is giving the strongest of injunctions: apparently he ordered all the monasteries to stop the activities of DS practitioners once and for all, he said that he doesn't want to repeat the same things every year, that he had said the same things for 11 years now, and that was that ... This seems like the ultimate witch hunt.

I really feel ashamed. Those monks harassed, with nowhere to go, and we here pleasantly talking about our joys and pains, enjoying freedom. They are the ones suffering directly a most unfair religious persecution. They cannot turn towards the Indian government, that protects all religions, because the Indian government has a policy of not intervening in Tibetan in exile affairs. Everything, every moneys, every document, everything goes through the Dharamsala government. From a human point of view they are almost defenseless.

What can we do? I don't know. But at least we should give a more detailed account of the facts, I think. This is just a rough chronicle. We should look for a complete account of the facts, and also find out what is going on right now, and let people know. May be someone that can help them will arise. "

Please offer your prayers for peace and understanding, that compassion and forgiveness may prevail. And that the noble homeless Sangha will be cared for in every way -
Thank you.
Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: thubwang on January 13, 2008, 03:02:47 AM
Dear, beggar, we should beg for realisations. Thank you for your reply,
To expel monks/ nuns Bhikshus/ bhikshunis or male / female shramanera's on the basis of engaging into practice bearing the the three recognitions, such as compassion, wisdom and insight as to acqiure realisations onto the path liberation and during which vinaya is kept, or is in line with the monastic procedures ,is incorrect and not in line with the monastic tradition. To halt certain exercices such as comunnal debate, puja's or retreat acrivities which are agreed upon by the forum of elders and seniors is possible only in situations of emergency such as damage to the monastery because of natural causes such as extreme whether, fire, outbreak of illness or a member of the residing Sangha passing away.
Perhaps attacing monasteries is a new form of extreme whether, political whether? Racing against Buddhas ideas. Also one can not just be expelled from the monastery, this needs to be done according a process which is discribed in the Dulwa tekst. If this is not folloewed in the decision taken to expel then this will be incorrect and unjust. Also it is not permitted for a sangha member whom is not residing, living or related to that very monastery to take such descisions, let alone to take action. The sima, or ordination ground can only be governed by them whom took ordination there. All interfearence to the sanga community if they are whithin proper moral conduct is a crime as far the vinaya tradition is concerned.

You know, we only need to look what happened to the early christian believers. During the early Roman empire they even thrown before the Lions and hungry tigers, and look how far Christianity has spread!
Who do they think they are by trying forceful weeding a powerfull protector out?  :) We keep on doing and dedicating to dharma peace and world peace. Lamathubwang please my apologies for spelling mistakes 
Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: mountains on January 13, 2008, 10:45:34 AM
Dear Lama Thubwang,

You are right. Early in Christianity, the Christians were persecuted and thrown to the lions to make sport of and eaten. And look how far Christianity has spread. Definitely Dorje Shugden's practice, lineage, rituals, benefits will spread farther and wider into the ten directions.

HH the Dalai Lama is very kind to 'push' Dorje Shugden to the Chinese and to bring the Chinese Government's attention to it. Lets hope more and more Chinese in China will practice Dorje Shugden and spread it. After all, China doesnt like HH the Dalai Lama at this time, so any practice put down by him, they would not be negatively affected.  In fact they would be encouraged to take up this practice that
'harms' the little minority region within the Chinese Motherland and it's de facto leader, the Dalai Lama. Of course we know Dorje Shugden could never harm anyone as he is a Buddha.  As the Chinese practice Dorje Shugden more and more, then they will see the benefits. If at first they promote Dorje Shugden for political reasons, slowly it will filter down and become a genuine practice. From that it will grow.

We can see the might and power of the Chinese country grow in the world. As they grow, so will their ideas, culture and religion spread and influence the world as the Amercian culture currently holds sway worldwide. So therefore China has 1.2 billion people as compared to 6 million plus Tibetans. Who would be more powerful to spread Dorje Shugden? Of course China. I do not lose confidence in HH the Dalai Lama and Lord Dorje Shugden. After all, the many dharma protectors of Tibet coudnt stop the Chinese invasion in 1959 which forced Tibetan Buddhism onto the world stage. SO WHY SHOULD DORJE SHUGDEN BE BLAMED NOW FOR NOT ACHIEVING INDEPENDENCE OF TIBET?? SHOULDNT NECHUNG, PELDEN HLAMO, MAHAKALA BE BLAMED FOR LOSING TIBET IN THE FIRST PLACE. WEREN'T MILLIONS OF TIBETANS BACK IN 1959 AND EARLIER DOING SO MANY RITUALS AND PUJAS TO THEM TO STOP THE CHINESE INVADERS FROM THE NORTH TO RANSACK TIBET?? WHAT HAPPENED?? WHY ARENT THOSE PROTECTORE BEING BLAMED FOR LOSING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE AND DORJE SHUGDEN BLAMED FOR NOT GETTING IT BACK???  Just like the Muslim invasion of North India forced Buddhism to the nearby Asian neighbours where it took strong roots.  The Muslim invasion at that time spread Buddhism to the world stage. So perhaps all this had to happen so Dharma can spread working with our negative karma and merits simultaneously. Due to our karma and it's instincsts, Dharma finds many obstacles to spread.

So lets promote Dorje Shugden to China. Then China practices it. Eventually China promotes it to the whole wide world.    

No one wishes the Tibetan people and Tibetan Government any harm, or ill-will, but HH is directly promoting Dorje Shugden to China. Dorje Shugden has become a Tibetan National issue of patriotism now. Let's be realistic, Tibet getting freedom is unlikely, but autonomy is a possibility if Tibetan Government in exile stop provoking China. They should become freinds with China. So being a National issue, that is if you practice you are against Tibet, if you dont then you are patriotic to it's cause has become the catch phrase being repeated by HH, Tibetan Govt and Prime Minister Samdhong Rinpoche. So the more China hears that Dorje Shugden practitioners are 'against' Dalai Lama and what he stands for, the MORE THEY WILL PROMOTE DORJE SHUGDEN AND FUND THE ACTIVITIES. HH the Dalai Lama found a very GREAT SPONSOR FOR THE DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR FINANCIAL NEEDS.  After all, if the Chinese Government funds this cause, it would 'harm' no country, govt, ppl, organizations in this world besides the Tibetan government in exile.

Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: Bodpa Lhakpa on January 13, 2008, 03:32:26 PM
So who is to congratulate? The chinese? or DS followers, or HH Dalai Lama?

Be realistic! If precious Je Tsong Kapa were with us, if Precious Dharma King Songtsan Gampo or the precious one, Thomi Samboda, to whom we Tibetan owe the most forever as long as untill Tibet to extinct, were with us, what would they suggest about the current Tibet?

None of the great persons in the entire Tibetan developmental history did/do not start their first step for achieveing ultimate goal(enlightenment for some people who think they are not responsible for persperity of their own land; regaining ownership of their own land for some other people) with learning KHA ka GHA NGA... and saying NGA RANG SOSO YI PA YU LA GHA...

Remember, Tibetan language is considered now a dying language! Do not rely the hope of rebooming of your own culture VIA another language!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I don't know where is my root objectively speaking
Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: beggar on January 15, 2008, 08:09:40 PM
Shiri N. Shiva Prasada
Superintendent of Police
Karwar, North Karnataka                                                                    December 13, 2007

Phone number 08382 226307, 226233

Fax: 08382 226550

Dear respected Sir,
This Great Nation, India, is a democratic and secular country, which fully condemns discrimination and religious abuses. But a segment of Tibetan monks is discriminating and abusing Shugden devotees in the place under your jurisdiction.
            On November 17, Mr. Lobsang Choeder and Mr. Thupten Choepel from Sera-Jay monastery has agitated the monks to outcast the monks who worship Lord Dorje Shugden from any religious gathering. As a result, some monks didn't attend the religious gathering, saying that the participants were worshippers of Dorje Shugden. Then, day before yesterday, some monks from Ganden Jangtse monastery refused to engage in debating study with the monks from Gaden Shartse monastery. Although they held the debate study together eventually, some among the gathering has thrown eggs, breads and stones. It is more or less a motivation to spark a riot.
            Mr Choedar and Mar Choepel have initiated the discrimination and abuses against Shugden devotees, and he put efforts to spread the diseases of anti-social element among other monks and monasteries in South India. And we think that they are threats to peaceful and harmonious co-existence of the general public.
            Shugden devotees have highly reservation that some anti-Shugden monks would create turbulence and trigger a riot in your area.. And these sort of persons have been practicing the violation of rights and freedom with impunity.
            Therefore we would like to request you to immediately end these anti-social elements spearheaded by Mr. Choedar and Mr. Choepel lest the peaceful co-existence turns into turbulence.
Yours sincerely,
Geshe Sopa Thomey
Acting President
Title: Re: Broadcast from Voice of Tibet Radio, on Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Post by: beggar on January 15, 2008, 08:13:47 PM
Lhochog Phonya (Southern Envoy)
Serial No: 43, December 1, 2007.
Published in Mundgod,
On 22 of this month, in the reception room above Sera-Jay Assembly Hall, Sera-Jay disciplinarian Lobsang Choedar and Lobsang Choedar has convened the local press conference, where he released the statement contained the [following] four points.
1)         In the year 1998, the resolution of the stand on Dholgyal devotees, presided by Gaden Tripa. The resolutions during the Gaden National Conference must be effectively implemented from the year 2008.
2)         There is no condition at all to co-exist with those two who contradict the spiritual           commitment according to religious tenet.
3)         In terms of politics, since those who worship Dholgya are the organization tool of           Chinese government, there is no meaning to co-exist.
4)         It is worthwhile to act Dholgyal followers' saying that the decision of Gelupa (followers of Gelug Traditon) must be taken by the general Gelugpa.
It was explained, base on these four points, a campaign of collecting signatures among monks are carried out. This campaign supports His Holiness the Dalai Lama and benefits Tibetan politics and religion. Earlier, the signature campaign has already conducted among over two thousands monks.
Mysore correspondent Tashi Delek
Title: This is also for the Tibetans. Re: Voice of Tibet Radio, January 8, 2008
Post by: a friend on January 16, 2008, 03:18:48 AM
Dear friends of the supramundain Dharmapala:

I don't know about you, but I am still in respectful astonishment and fillled with gratitude for the courteous, clear, honest and heartbreakingly moving message that our Global Moderator sent to the Samdhong Rinpoche.

I suggest now to try to excercise our imagination and intelligence and make a tentative pool of ideas, any idea that anyone of us might have to bring some improvement to this sad and dangerous situation.
My suggestion is to state the ideas and see which ones could be applied or improved or whatever.

Both Mountains followed by enthousiastic Beggar, and briefly Zawa Rinpoche, all of them had the idea of a monastery to house the victims of Dharamsala's persecution, i.e., the rejected monks of the various monasteries in Southern India.

The Dorje Shugden Society in India and other monks are trying to alert the local authorities.

These two ideas/actions are not contradictory. What are the variations that one could find on them, to improve them or make them more efficient?

For example, even though the thought of a monastery housing monks from all monasteries of the Ganden tradition is just thrilling and great and gives goose bumps, it might be more useful in the immediate term to contact the different ladangs of our Lamas residing in free countries, to see if they would be able to receive some monks among those orphaned by the persecution.

Also, I think these poor people that are trying to deal with the Indian authorities need help. Does anybody have lawyer friends in India by any chance, that could guide them and help them (even language wise)?

This is a call to the Tibetans that follow this website, too. Please come up with some ideas, meet among  yourselves, shed your fear, try to do something!

All the best to all

a friend