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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: LosangKhyentse on March 01, 2010, 12:07:10 PM
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Decades ago Gaden Jangtse Serkong Tritul Rinpoche who resides in Taiwan recognized a Jamseng Rinpoche (Taiwanese) and had him enthroned from Gaden Jangtse Monastery. Since then, Jamseng Rinpoche has been doing quite alot of work, travelling, meeting dignitaries, teaching, opening centres, etc.
Since then Jamseng Rinpoche did not go to Gaden Jangtse to swear against Dorje Shugden as he opted out and joined Shar Gaden Monastery. Shar Gaden is being partially supported by both Serkong Tritul Rinpoche and Jamseng Rinpoche financially.
Serkong Tritul invited Drepung Loseling Monastery's Denma Locho Rinpoche to Taiwan to turn the wheel of dharma and pass some important lineages. Here is a picture of Denma Locho Rinpoche holding affectionately Jamseng Rinpoche's hand.
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I was just thinking, with the current situation in the monasteries, I don't think HE Denma Locho Rinpoche is having a conducive environment to practice and teach the Dharma, won't it be beneficial if Denma Locho Rinpoche can benefit more people with the outreach the Kadhampa Buddhists Association people are having now?
(I'm sorry the picture of Locho Rinpoche being set aside during grand teachings still disturbs me. Does anyone know of Rinpoche's current condition now?)
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I just noticed that Denma Locho Rinpoche and Jamseng Rinpoche are reported in another article: Desecrating the Dharma???? Another 'interesting' article from Singapore!! http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=554.0 which reported that Jamseng Rinpoche conned Denma Locho Rinpoche to take photos with him. Is the article below true?
PROVEN Dishonesty
Most Venerable Denma Locho Rinpoche, one of Tibet's most respected hierarchs, received an apparently innocent request for a short audience. Having received easily a few thousand requests for audiences a year, Locho Rinpoche's secretary acceded to what appears to be yet another devoted audience for blessings, naming of new-borns or scriptural clarifications.
What ensued spurned completely out of imagined sacrileged. The self-proclaimed incarnation of Guan Yin or Chenrezig ( the main organiser of this brazen circus with his oh-so recognizable little stub of goattee ) popped deftly into Locho Rinpoche's room, flashed one sample of his claimed "relics" across Rinpoche's eyes, lashed out his limb to grab Rinpoche's blessed palms and gruffly commanded his attendants to snap pictures upon pictures from every angle !! The subsequent nightmare was flooded into the literally millions of booklets and posters: Denma Locho Rinpoche recognized these thousands of coloured balls as Lord Buddha's saliva, blood and brain relics; applauded his relic world-tour and in short, approved and loved him as the recognized incarnation of holy Chenrezig !!
When the matter bombed-shelled, Locho Rinpoche's office issued an open clarification to His literally hundreds of thousands of disciples, both lay and monastic, and also to His Holiness the Dalai Lama's Private Office, that He has NOT endorsed anyone as Chenrezig incarnate nor affirmed any archaelogically unproven pellets as the venerated relics of Lord Buddha, the Enlightened One.
Despite every attempt to get this party to stop making misleading claims in relation to Locho Rinpoche ( they have been duly informed !! ), this time round, they continued with their dirty deception by re-publishing pictures of Rinpoche and the goattee man, lying about how Locho was head over heels with their enlightened activities and how lovely Locho Rinpoche considered his absurd pellets to be !!
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Hi Harrynephew, I agree with you on the non-conducive environment in which Denma Locho Rinpoche has to operate from. Taking this point of view one scope bigger, this challenge is not only encountered by Denma Locho Rinpoche but also other members of the Sangha community.
If one has to be cautious about who he interacts with because he is susceptible to criticism, judgment and eventual expulsion from the Shangha community, one cannot practice, teach or represent the Dharma completely well.
Furthermore, this situation contradicts the essence of the 3 Jewels whereby the Buddha, Dharma and Shangha is established to benefit all sentient beings. Here, Rinpoches, monks, nuns and lay practitioners are instructed to ostracize Dorje Shugden practitioners. How will this benefit ALL sentient beings when it already causes harm to so many individuals?
To return the focus on Dharma learning, practice and teaching is vital for the growth of Dharma in the future. The Sangha is the jewel that is essential in upholding and keeping complete the Dharma teachings. Therefore, for the benefit of all sentient beings, it is important to provide a safe environment for the Sangha. The opening of Shar Ganden Monastery is one of the first steps to do so. Next is the maintenance and success of Shar Ganden so that it sets an encouraging example for more and more such monasteries will be set up.
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I just noticed that Denma Locho Rinpoche and Jamseng Rinpoche are reported in another article: Desecrating the Dharma???? Another 'interesting' article from Singapore!! [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=554.0[/url] which reported that Jamseng Rinpoche conned Denma Locho Rinpoche to take photos with him. Is the article below true?
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Some of this organization's web site for your information:
http://220.130.222.208:84/kadhampa/text003.htm
http://www.nzkadhampa.org/main/news.html
Besides Jamseng Rinpoche(he is called Drom-Tug Rinpoche now), there are other 14 Rinpoche assigned by Tritual total of 15 in this Kadhampa organization. They have a very logical naming convention:
- Under Atisha there were 9 major disciple (X)
- Each disciple has body, speech, mind, merit, business (Y)
Say, Jamseng Rinpoche's new name is Drom-Tug Rinpoche, Drom stands for Dromtonpa, Tug stands for mind. So he is now said to be the 18th re-incarnation of Dromtonpa's mind, instead of Guanyin.
As a whole they have room for up to 9X5=45 rinpoches, now 15 filled up(btw, except for one as 16th and one as 17th, other X-Y Rinpoche are in their 18th already, as said in the site.)
Some photos about '18th ga-gu rinpoche' and their activities in the NZ center downloaded from their site:
PS: Ga stands for Gawa, Gu stands for body, so Ga-Gu Riinpoche is the 18th re-incarnation of Gawa's body.
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Jamseng Rinpoche and their organization grows very fast and has so many supporters. It is incredible to see all the activities they do. They are building a huge temple in Nepal, Taiwan and finished building in Tibet. They also financially support Shar Gaden Monastery. That is so helpful, because we have to support financially Shar Gaden. If we don't do, who will?? If we cannot do as much as them, at least we can feel happy they are doing that.
I hope they can continue their activities and support Shar Gaden without a break.
tk
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So this picture of Denma Locho Rinpoche and Jamsing Rinpoche is what got Locho Rinpoche into so much trouble with Loseling.
Tritul Rinpoche, Jamsing Rinpoche are financially supporting Shar Gaden, keeping it going. Tritul Rinpoche even sent his monks from Nepal to Shar Gaden to build up the numbers there.
Tritul Rinpoche and Jamsing Rinpoche also offered a large sum of money to Locho Rinpoche after Locho Rinpoche gave some teachings in Taiwan. Locho Rinpoche then donated a large portion of this money to Drepung Loseling.
The money that Locho Rinpoche donated to Loseling was still used for the expansion of the monastery and never returned. But they ostracise this great master citing that he has associated with Shugden practitioners and taken their money but they still keep the money!! Why doesnt Loseling returned the so-called 'dirty money'? Then they would really have a basis to talk instead of appearing hypocritical.
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Dear Duldzin,
You are absolutely correct. Tritul Rinpoche and Jamseng sent many young monks from nepal to Shar Gaden to be educated to be the teachers of the future. They send monks there for education and finances to help Shar Gaden. Fantastic!
Tritul Rinpoche and Jamseng, quietly very much supports the Dorje Shugden practice and monasteries. I have contacts who told me directly.
tk
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I just noticed that Denma Locho Rinpoche and Jamseng Rinpoche are reported in another article: Desecrating the Dharma???? Another 'interesting' article from Singapore!! [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=554.0[/url] which reported that Jamseng Rinpoche conned Denma Locho Rinpoche to take photos with him. Is the article below true?
.....
Some of this organization's web site for your information:
[url]http://220.130.222.208:84/kadhampa/text003.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.nzkadhampa.org/main/news.html[/url]
Besides Jamseng Rinpoche(he is called Zong-Tu Rinpoche now), there are other 14 Rinpoche assigned by Tritual total of 15 in this Kadhampa organization. They have a very logical naming convention:
- Under Atisha there were 9 major disciple (X)
- Each disciple has body, speech, mind, merit, business (Y)
So they have room for up to 9X5=45 rinpoches, now 15 filled up(btw, except for one as 16th and one as 17th, other X-Y Rinpoche are in their 18th already, as said in the site.)
Some photos about '18th ga-gu rinpoche' and their activities in the NZ center downloaded from their site:
Despite all the accusations on Dorje Shugden. His practice monasteries and lineage still continues to grow everywhere. Thank you for sharing this with us wang. It just shows that Dorje Shugden is Enlightened and Real and helps those that sincerely practice and spread the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa. Rejoice! And may there be many all these Gurus live long to turn the wheel of Dharma. Dharma is Life and it is for everyone ;)
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<Quote from CAS Online>
Questionable "Relics"
No Buddhists could recall any exhortation by the Buddha to fully equate happiness with worshipping Him .... much less, relics claimed to descend from Him and of truly unclear origins: historically / scripturally or otherwise !!
The big problem here is that there is not one single Buddhist scripture which has mentioned about the Buddha having left relics of saliva / blood or brains. There has never been any historical references, however weak, hinting about the existence of such relics. The blatant claims have confused and shocked indeed many Buddhists world-wide and has prompted not a few Buddhist umbrella organisations in many countries to distance themselves completely from the party hosting this event.
<Quote from CAS Online>
In regards to the source of the Buddha Relics, we found similar Buddha relics in Matreya Project. We also found out that Dalai Lama also offered Buddha Relics to the Matreya Project for their world tour. Please Kindly see the link here:http://www.maitreyaproject.org/en/relic/gallery-shakyamuni.html
http://www.maitreyaproject.org/en/relic/gallery.html
Not only that, I have witnessed the Ceritficate of the Relics issued by monestary and it is officially opened by Kadhampa Buddhist Association.
<Extracted from Maitreya Project Website>
All of his life, Lama Zopa Rinpoche has been collecting sacred relics offered by Buddhist masters around the world. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has offered eight relics of Shakyamuni Buddha to the collection. Eventually the entire collection will be enshrined at the heart of the Maitreya Buddha statue being built in India.
From time to time, visitors at Relic Tour events offer to the collection, relics with which they themselves have been entrusted. Their intention is that many others may benefit.
This incredible generosity and kindness means that the collection is becoming larger and more varied, and now includes masters from many different Buddhist traditions. This reflects the Relic Tour's non-sectarian approach and universal message.
Thus, as the Tour travels around the globe, the Maitreya Project Heart Shrine Relic Tour collection is constantly evolving and growing.
The Benefits of Seeing the Relics
Viewing holy relics inspires us to develop our own hearts and minds, to develop loving-kindness and compassion and to understand spiritual teachings.
When the Buddha lived in India in approximately 563 BCE the people of that time had the opportunity to actually see and hear him, to be blessed by him in his human form. In approximately 483 BCE the Buddha left the Earth by passing into nirvana (the enlightened state) during the body's death. At that time he compassionately left relics so that today we still have the opportunity to receive the blessings of the Buddha, directly.
Spiritual masters throughout history have blessed the world with their relics in this way and this phenomenon is still happening today. For instance, in 2001, Geshe Lama Konchog, a revered Tibetan scholar and meditator, passed away at Kopan Monastery in Nepal. After his body was cremated those attending the funeral rites were astonished to find hundreds and hundreds of crystal-like relics among the ashes.
<Extracted from Maitreya Project Website>(http://)
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What Khensur Rinpoche talk about is:
'the big problem here is that there is not one single Buddhist scripture which has mentioned about the Buddha having left relics of saliva / blood or brains.'
Not saying that no relic ever exist. So you are mixing up the two.
Rinpoche explain as below(http://www.casotac.com/CASonline%20Articles/23122009_2.html):
'When Lord Buddha manifested Nirvana at Kushinagara, it is recorded in the scriptures that the bone relics of Lord Buddha were devotedly collected by the gods to be enshrined and offered devoted services in their heavens. Venerable Ananda and Venerable Kashyapa requested the gods to leave some relics in our human realm as a source of merit and blessings for our world. As a result, some of the Buddha's bone relics remained with us and subsequently, it is recorded, too, that Nagarjuna enshrined some precious relics in treasure casket at Bodhigaya.
However, the claims by this association, of the sudden but un-accounted for revelation of thousands of blood, brain or saliva relics, could not be referenced from any of the holy scriptures, history, tradition or in the Tibetan circle. '
This Kadhampa Buddhist Association arrange regular relics tour in Asia, with thousanads of relics. CAS Online mentioned that kind of 'magic' show in TV:
'The Taiwanese "tulku", the alleged incarnation of Chenrezig, has also, in front of television audiences, held an alleged hair of Lord Buddha between his fingers, with the hair apparently twitching like a worm from side to side in his hands. When he dumped the hair in a mug of liquid, the hair apparently "swam" of its own efforts, '
It is said that $ trading is involved behind it.
See one of their advertisment as enclosed.
Khensur Rinpoche also mentioned :
'There has never been any historical precedent or valid scriptural basis for wearing these green-striped robes. In fact, I am concerned that their lineage is not authentic because "Serkong Tritul", head of this association, has flipped-flopped by declaring himself to be the reincarnation of this, and then, that, different Ganden Tripas in the past. In addition, he has switched his claim before to having been the reincarnation of a great yogi practitioner "Apong". It appears that there has been some contradictions in his own claims !!
Let me recount, in short, how reincarnation became institutionalised in Tibet. The first recognised reincarnated master of Tibet is the first Gyalwa Karmapa. Subsequently, the recognition of reincarnation of past masters ( called "tulkus" ) spread to the other traditions. In the Gelugpa lineage, it is mainly the Dalai Lama or the Ganden Tripas who will recognise Tulkus. In the Sakya lineage, the Sakya Trizin will be mainly responsible while for the Nyingma lineage, great masters such as the Mindroling Trichen, the late Dudjom Rinpoche or Palyul Penor Rinpoche will be the authority. In the Drikung Kagyu, the Drukpa Kagyu and other lineages, the respective great masters will fulfill the task and they each have their respective, stringent and definitely valid systems of recognising incarnations of great masters from their lineage.
Here, "Serkong Tritul" is not recognised by any of the senior lineage-holders of any of the schools. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has never recognised him as a Tulku and neither has any of the heads of the other lineages. This association claims to represent the Kadampa lineage, but all the old Kadampa masters have passed away, so these old, holy Kadampa masters could not have recognised them as Kadampas or as tulkus of the Kadampa lineage.
The formal inheritors of the Kadampa lineage are the Gelugpas. None of the Gelugpa lineage-holders alive today - not His Holiness or the Ganden Tripa - recognised him as a tulku. So, merely claiming himself to be a tulku does not and could not, at all, factually make him one.
They have been requested to offer proofs of their recognition as Kadampas. "Serkong Tritul" has also been questioned many times to provide proof of who recognised him as the real tulku of Serkong Tritul and to date, they could not offer any answers or proof.'
Trinley Kalsang mentioned some frequent quoted POV in this forum which looks strange. I would like to add one more:
- Those claim themselves practicing DS must be right in all aspects, those not practising it must be wrong in all aspects
So it is kind of ''X don't practice DS-> X is not worth listening to, no matter what it is about(those not related to DS). Y practice DS-> Y must be non-questionable in his discipline, his activities etc..'
Chairman Mao once said 'enemy's enemy is our friend'. It is a right tactic politically, but for religious matter this may not be a good idea.
BTW, this Kadhampa Buddhist Association has announced no further relationship with DS openly. How come they come back now?
I don't want this forum be a sub-firum of Kadhampa Buddhist Association. I put it straight: this Kadhampa Buddhist Association organization is not appreciated by the Chinese-speaking Gelukpa community, no matter they practice or not practice DS.
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Some people will believe anything and the Three Poisons know no boundaries.Mormons based their beliefs upon Golden Tablets that were transcribed, then dissappeared.
All kinds of superstitious nonsense exist in religiousilous
One test they always avoid is Scientific scruntiny under the microscope.
But if people can think their Absolute Master is an actual God King, and he condemned them to suffer as Serfs?
Which apparently they thank him for, is as big a mystery to me, as any other Cult's behavior.
If it makes them happy.
Well there is a fool born every second!
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As Serkong Tritul was an incumbent of Gaden Jangtse, would they have enthroned him as a Rinpoche without proper recognition?
Whether he is a real rinpoche or not doesnt really matter. More important than titles are real dharma practice and the qualities that come along with it. Many tulkus manifest with or without titles as required by circumstance. Serkong tritul has built huge monasteries in Taiwan and Nepal. He is supporting the sangha of Shar Gaden in these difficult times. His student Jangsem Rinpoche is spreading the teachings in south asia. He stuck by dorje shugden and got thrown out of the monastery for it. Yet he's doing fine and growing ever bigger. THat's pretty good results by me.
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What Khensur Rinpoche talk about is:
'the big problem here is that there is not one single Buddhist scripture which has mentioned about the Buddha having left relics of saliva / blood or brains.'
Not saying that no relic ever exist. So you are mixing up the two.
Rinpoche explain as below([url]http://www.casotac.com/CASonline%20Articles/23122009_2.html[/url]):
'When Lord Buddha manifested Nirvana at Kushinagara, it is recorded in the scriptures that the bone relics of Lord Buddha were devotedly collected by the gods to be enshrined and offered devoted services in their heavens. Venerable Ananda and Venerable Kashyapa requested the gods to leave some relics in our human realm as a source of merit and blessings for our world. As a result, some of the Buddha's bone relics remained with us and subsequently, it is recorded, too, that Nagarjuna enshrined some precious relics in treasure casket at Bodhigaya.
In regards to the source of the relics, HH Dalai Lama's Maitreya Project also have Shaykamuni Buddha's blood relics and "head" Relics. Preharps Khensur Rinpoche must have overlooked that Maitreya Project (under Zopa Rinpoche) also have similar relics and may have not even seen real Buddha Relics before? There are other Buddhist organizations including HH Dalai Lama 's organization having blood relics, forehead or head relics (it is actually brain relics), flesh relics of Buddha Shakyamuni. Are you saying that their relics also came from unreliable source too? Please kindly open your eyes and see under the link below: http://www.maitreyaproject.org/en/relic/gallery-shakyamuni.html (http://www.maitreyaproject.org/en/relic/gallery-shakyamuni.html)
<Extracted from Maitreya Project Website>
Relic and Source
Buddha Shakyamuni's blood relics - These relics came from Meiktila Relic Museum in Burma and were offered by the abbot who manages the museum.
Buddha Shakyamuni's head relics - These relics were offered to Lama Zopa Rinpoche by his student, Wu Wen Yuen, during a long life puja (prayer ceremony) for Rinpoche held in Taipei, Taiwan on 18th March 2001.
The small granular relics came from a Thai monk who brought them to Malaysia. They were then given to a layperson whose practice was to make many offerings to the Sangha (ordained monks and nuns).
The white, flake-like relics came from Meiktila Relic Museum in Burma.
The one large and three smaller relics came from a senior monk in Borobudur, Indonesia where there is a great Buddhist monument. Upon Lama Zopa Rinpoche's request he offered these relics, which had been in his possession for many, many years, for placing in the Heart Shrine of the Maitreya Buddha statue.
The four identical relics were offered by His Holiness the Fourteenth Dalai Lama for the purpose of enshrining them at the heart of the Maitreya Buddha statue.
The very white relics were offered to Lama Zopa Rinpoche by his student, Wu Wen Yuen.
<Extracted from Maitreya Project Website>
below are some of the links where the simliar Buddha relics does not from Kadhampa are found identical:
http://newsuperkingbuffet.com/culture-n6619
http://www.bukisa.com/articles/61388_extraordinary-rare-and-precious-sacred-buddhist-relics-of-all-time-superb-photograph
Blood relics and head relics are mentioned here in Maitreya Project
http://www.buddha.sg/htm/general/relic.htm
http://blog.forestmeditation.com/2008/05/20/hello-world/
http://myanmarspace.com/user/crazycmh/blogs
http://aryamahayana.forumup.com/about57-aryamahayana.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ginasant/2450114841/
Blood relics of Shakyamuni Buddha
http://bgf.buddhism.org/graphics/bgf/photogallery.htm
Buddhist Gem Fellowship have showcased the Buddha Relics in the BGF Center from 29th Dec 01 to 1st Jan 02.
http://slz.goodweb.cn/faq_1.asp
http://photo.tamtay.vn/photo/view/166593__7
http://space.tv.cctv.com/video/VIDE1237210184325888
http://www.gscn.com.cn/get/picture/0771615090987304_79.htm
http://www.docin.com/p-25305812.html
http://blog.bandao.cn/archive/66219/blogs-596682.aspx
http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=8128292
Below pictures are the various blood and head relics extracted from Maitreya Project Website:
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What Khensur Rinpoche talk about is:
Khensur Rinpoche also mentioned :
'There has never been any historical precedent or valid scriptural basis for wearing these green-striped robes. In fact, I am concerned that their lineage is not authentic because "Serkong Tritul", head of this association, has flipped-flopped by declaring himself to be the reincarnation of this, and then, that, different Ganden Tripas in the past. In addition, he has switched his claim before to having been the reincarnation of a great yogi practitioner "Apong". It appears that there has been some contradictions in his own claims !!
Here, "Serkong Tritul" is not recognised by any of the senior lineage-holders of any of the schools. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has never recognised him as a Tulku and neither has any of the heads of the other lineages. This association claims to represent the Kadampa lineage, but all the old Kadampa masters have passed away, so these old, holy Kadampa masters could not have recognised them as Kadampas or as tulkus of the Kadampa lineage.
The underlying and compelling reasons as why the change to from Chinese Gelug Sect to Kadham Sect is due to that HH Dalai Lama is involved in politics and has made a great mess out of entire Gelug Sect. In fact, Kadham is part of the Gelug lineage and so long as the true essence of the Buddhism has been preserved and changing to "orchid" sect or "table" sect does not matters at all. Serkong Titul Rinpoche has maintained the top postion in debate in the Gaden Monastery (not an easy feat) and had refused to accept the position as Ganden Tripa, knowing something will happen...
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This Kadhampa Buddhist Association arrange regular relics tour in Asia, with thousanads of relics. CAS Online mentioned that kind of 'magic' show in TV:
'The Taiwanese "tulku", the alleged incarnation of Chenrezig, has also, in front of television audiences, held an alleged hair of Lord Buddha between his fingers, with the hair apparently twitching like a worm from side to side in his hands. When he dumped the hair in a mug of liquid, the hair apparently "swam" of its own efforts, '
It is said that $ trading is involved behind it.
See one of their advertisment as enclosed.
The hair relics belongs to Kasyapa Buddha and Maitreya Project also have relics of Kasyapa Buddha: http://www.maitreyaproject.org/en/relic/gallery-kashyapa.html
This hair relics will spin itself to mass chanting of Om Mani Pe Mei Hum and the spinning speed changes according to the fast or slow chanting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpjvoUe53Ok
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For more info on Serkong Tritul, do read this thread:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=41.0
It starts with a letter dated 20 November 2007 from Nepal Manjushiri Society and Nyenang Phelgyaling monastery, which states that "Much astonishing and poignant is they gave up not only the practice of Dorje Shugden in Thali Mahayana monastery, but also have emptied photos, scriptures, and statues of Dorje Shugden. It is said that statues of Atisha, Dromtonpa and so on are being constructed. This trend is indeed shocking and distracting to Shugden devotees."
However, we know that Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is the main patron and sponsor of Shar Gaden Monastery in South India. Does anyone know what happened between these two contradictory events?
Thanks,
Kate
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For more info on Serkong Tritul, do read this thread:
[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=41.0[/url]
It starts with a letter dated 20 November 2007 from Nepal Manjushiri Society and Nyenang Phelgyaling monastery, which states that "Much astonishing and poignant is they gave up not only the practice of Dorje Shugden in Thali Mahayana monastery, but also have emptied photos, scriptures, and statues of Dorje Shugden. It is said that statues of Atisha, Dromtonpa and so on are being constructed. This trend is indeed shocking and distracting to Shugden devotees."[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=634.15[/url]
However, we know that Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is the main patron and sponsor of Shar Gaden Monastery in South India. Does anyone know what happened between these two contradictory events?
Thanks,
Kate
For your information, there is a difference between giving up completely and not to practise Dorje Shugden. In the mass campaign to make the monk to swear not to practice Dorje Shugden, HH Dalai Lama tried to make HH Serkong Tritul Rinpoche give up Dorje Shugden completely but He didn't give in to HHDL and was cast out by HHDL.
Whatever the lineage masters has recongised and predicted, as the followers of Gelug cannot deny at all. This fact can be verified by some of our well known members as they have posted some where in this forum. Serkong Tritul Rinpoche was groomed up by Song Rinpoche from young and had maintained as the top debater in Ganden Monastery. Zemey Rinpoche passed all the Yamantaka Lineages to Serkong Tritul Rinpoche making Him the Lineage holder of Lone Yamantaka. He also acquired 8 Maha Teachings and many others valuable uncommon teachings from various renowned masters, like Guru Deva, Kensur Rinpoche Sonam Kunga, Zemey Rinoche, Locho Rinpoche etc.
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I can't comment on the relics as I have not seen them for myself. It would be possible for the hairs to vibrate or dance. After all, miraculous feats such as divination etc are definitely possible and is a commonly recognised practice. If the future can be told via dice, prayer and reliance upon the enlightened beings, then it is a small thing for an artefact of that enlightened being to jump or dance or vibrate. If miracles are what is required to attract people to the dharma, so be it. Times are degenerate after all. Just don't forget it is a means to an end and don't just stop at worshipping the relics.
Serkong Tritul still practices Dorje Shugden, but on an outer level, the temples no longer feature his image and the practice is done secretly. This is the first I am hearing that Tritul Rinpoche's status is in doubt?
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I can't comment on the relics as I have not seen them for myself. It would be possible for the hairs to vibrate or dance. After all, miraculous feats such as divination etc are definitely possible and is a commonly recognized practice. If the future can be told via dice, prayer and reliance upon the enlightened beings, then it is a small thing for an artifact of that enlightened being to jump or dance or vibrate. If miracles are what is required to attract people to the dharma, so be it. Times are degenerate after all. Just don't forget it is a means to an end and don't just stop at worshipping the relics.
Ultimately, Buddha Shakyamuni has left His relics behind out of compassion to the salvage the sentient beings and lead them to purse Buddhism to attain complete happiness. According to one of the Buddha Sutra, seeing Buddha relics enable to gain a lot of merits and one will not enter the hell realm within that life time.
Seeing these relics is actually seeing Buddha Himself, one will gain faith and inspiration to purse the peerless enlightenment and diligently seek for Dharma.
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My favourite story with regard to relics and their authenticity thereof.
The Story of the Dog tooth
There once was a Tibetan man who traveled to India to trade. He took things like salt or yak tails, and brought back tea and other things to sell. Since India was where Shakyamuni taught, this trip also became a pilgrimage. Because of this latter aspect, his mother, a very religious woman, asked him to bring back a momento from the Holy Land. He promised to do so. However, over the years although he took many such journeys, he forgot and came back empty handed. His mother no longer inquired on his return as to what he had brought. “Next time,” he promised always, “Next time.”
One year coming back, almost in sight of home he remembered.“Uh oh,” he said, which translated from Tibetan is Uh oh. “I’ve forgotten again, and my mother is getting older. Why—she may even be dead already.” He felt he could not come home empty handed again.
Seeing a dead dog by the wayside he took out one of his teeth, wrapped it in silk, and placed it into a portable amulet box. “She will not know,” he said, “and it will not do any harm.”
At home his mother was making mo-mo’s, and he called, “Guess what I brought you from India?”
“You finally remembered?” she laughed.
“Yes. I brought you a Buddha’s tooth.”
She was overcome with joy. “Oh, I only expected a little dirt where Buddha walked. This is so sacred!”
She placed in on her altar and every morning did prostrations to it. The son smiled at the sight of his happy mother.
One day he was passing the room and a beam of light came out. On striking old people, they became young. Poor people became rich. Sad people became happy.
“What is happening?” he asked his mother, who was churning butter. “What do you expect of a Buddha’s tooth?” she replied.
The mind of the woman, through her devotion, had changed the dog’s tooth into a Buddha tooth. We can do that also.
John Brzostoski
Maitreya Festival 2003
http://www.bro-pa.org/dog-tooth.html
As such, like the story above, whether the relics are authentic OR not doesn't matter. The power of the object is up to the subject rather than the object. This also ties in with whether we see our Guru as the Buddha or not. As the Buddhist saying goes, if we see our Guru as the Buddha, we will receive the blessings of the Buddha. If we see our Guru as an ordinary being, we will receive the blessings of the ordinary being. So whether the Guru IS a Buddha or not is not relevant but how we view him.
In that sense, if we view the Dalai Lama as Chenrezig, whether he is or not, only we will gain the benefit.
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As for the relics, there indeed are in this world true relics of the Buddha. Usually they are housed in large and venerated old stupas/chedis, but are not made to dance to the audience.
In fact, the same kind of real relics that the Buddha left us are "produced" even today by Arhats of all traditions, Tibetan, Theravada, or Korean. The great temple of Khon Kaen, Thailand, houses over 300 reliquaries of rilbus left behind by attained practitioners. Just go and see. But there are no hairs, only rilbus, you see. And no dancing.
Sorry to be a cynic, but the trick of the dancing hair is something so basic that David Copperfield would be ashamed. Get real, folks.
If a Teacher wants to impress the audience by showing them something that originates from the Buddha, then why not proclaim Samyutta-Nikaya? It has the hard-core topics, is surely and unambiguously the common ground of all known Buddhist traditions, and the best thing is, that it is free for all who have ears to hear. But maybe just that is the problem. Namely: It is free, and that all Teachers can give the Samyutta-teachings (provided of course that they are Buddhist Teachers). This kind of approach would not make the Teacher special. Or famous. Or rich. But it would make him Buddhist.
And as for the compassion of Shakyamuni Buddha, he actually stated that "whoever wants to see me, is to look at the Dharma, and whoever sees the Dharma, sees just me". No dancing hairs needed, only Dharma.
Get real, folks.
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get real, folks. Second that emotion.
Tulku worship, oracles, politics, promoting "King Shugden" etc
=
the end of Dharma in this world
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And as for the compassion of Shakyamuni Buddha, he actually stated that "whoever wants to see me, is to look at the Dharma, and whoever sees the Dharma, sees just me". No dancing hairs needed, only Dharma.
Get real, folks.
Dear Friends,
As mentioned Buddhas have left their relics out of compassion as a skillful mean to salvage sentient beings to purse Dharma instructions to gain Enlightenment. Kindly do not commit the same folly like Wang did as you do not even witnessed it yourself? At times, Shakaymuni Buddha also need to displayed great magical powers to lead sentient beings to gain faith in Dharma. Movever, Only enlightened beings can verified by them. A dog tooth can be even venerated and become a real relic out of faith. Kasapa Buddha relics are very rare and few in this world have His relics. There are devotees sensitive to out of "worldy" things could see lights from these relics or experienced bliss by venerating them.
Sometimes, the lay people including us also need some amazing things to appear before us to "get real" and inspired to diligently purse Dharma. It is amazing how the enlightened beings & dharma protectors manifested many skillful means to lead sentient beings to enlightenment.
The benefit of venerating Buddha relics can be found on
The Sutra On The Merit Of Bathing The Buddha.
http://www.purifymind.com/Sutras34.htm
The power of the object is up to the subject rather than the object. This also ties in with whether we see our Guru as the Buddha or not. As the Buddhist saying goes, if we see our Guru as the Buddha, we will receive the blessings of the Buddha. If we see our Guru as an ordinary being, we will receive the blessings of the ordinary being. So whether the Guru IS a Buddha or not is not relevant but how we view him.
I seconded to this quote and thanks for the beautiful story :)
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This also ties in with whether we see our Guru as the Buddha or not. As the Buddhist saying goes, if we see our Guru as the Buddha, we will receive the blessings of the Buddha. If we see our Guru as an ordinary being, we will receive the blessings of the ordinary being. So whether the Guru IS a Buddha or not is not relevant but how we view him.
In that sense, if we view the Dalai Lama as Chenrezig, whether he is or not, only we will gain the benefit.
I suppose even chenresig can manifest as an out of control politician.
Is this what you mean?
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I can more easily and realistically perceive WisdomBuddha as Vajrayoginni.
Than I can visualize the Dalia Lama as Chenresig.
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Anyone can be seen as Buddha, but surely Buddha doesn't manifest as someone who causes his own doctrine to degenerate? Where's the benefit in that? In the scriptures it says that Buddha can manifest as a handicapped person or even as an insane being if that benefits living beings, but what benefit is there in manifesting as someone who increases ignorance and attachment to worldly concerns such as the freedom of Tibet? Buddhas benefit living beings by appearing as teachers who spread wisdom, so what benefit is there in destroying the teachings? This is not a Buddha action!
Should we then also view Langdarma and Mahmud of Ghazni as emanations of Chenrezig as well? Surely there appear to be deluded sentient beings who are actually engaging in harmful actions? should we deny this and see everyone as a Buddha?
We have to be clear - of course you can see the Dalai Lama as Chenrezig but if that then makes you accept his actions of mixing Dharma with politics, this is a mistake, I feel. If your view makes you hold back from the full strength of condemnation that such actions deserve, this is also a mistake.
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I just noticed that Denma Locho Rinpoche and Jamseng Rinpoche are reported in another article: Desecrating the Dharma???? Another 'interesting' article from Singapore!! [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=554.0[/url] which reported that Jamseng Rinpoche conned Denma Locho Rinpoche to take photos with him. Is the article below true?
Looking at the photos, Jamseng Rinpoche along with his monks and nuns are no longer wearing the yellow inner vest but wearing the green colored vest. What does this symbolise? A new lineage?
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Anyone can be seen as Buddha, but surely Buddha doesn't manifest as someone who causes his own doctrine to degenerate? Where's the benefit in that? In the scriptures it says that Buddha can manifest as a handicapped person or even as an insane being if that benefits living beings, but what benefit is there in manifesting as someone who increases ignorance and attachment to worldly concerns such as the freedom of Tibet? Buddhas benefit living beings by appearing as teachers who spread wisdom, so what benefit is there in destroying the teachings? This is not a Buddha action!
Should we then also view Langdarma and Mahmud of Ghazni as emanations of Chenrezig as well? Surely there appear to be deluded sentient beings who are actually engaging in harmful actions? should we deny this and see everyone as a Buddha?
We have to be clear - of course you can see the Dalai Lama as Chenrezig but if that then makes you accept his actions of mixing Dharma with politics, this is a mistake, I feel. If your view makes you hold back from the full strength of condemnation that such actions deserve, this is also a mistake.
I think in another thread, it was mentioned that we can view someone as an enlightened Being, but their actions may not necessarily be so. Eg if the Buddha manifests as a thief, his thieving is wrong (on our mundane view anyway?), though there may be a higher reason for it.
I do think that the enlightened Beings can manifest as anything be it even a murderer, if it has some benefit in the long run.
I strongly do NOT agree with the Dalai Lama's actions in the ban on Dorje Shugden practice. I also do not agree with his passive endorsement of ostracising Shugdenpas in the Tibetan monasteries and refugee camps. Definitely NOT.
However, my personal viewpoint (and it's not that i want to persuade you that it's the correct one but just what i have personally chosen) is that I will respect the Dalai lama for who he represents. If he is not real, i lose nothing. If he is the real deal, i haven't been cursing a Buddha. Even if it's 100% sure he is fake (although in our deluded mind, we can never be 100% sure?), I would still not criticise him because Dorje shugden said we shouldn't.
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I think in another thread, it was mentioned that we can view someone as an enlightened Being, but their actions may not necessarily be so. Eg if the Buddha manifests as a thief, his thieving is wrong (on our mundane view anyway?), though there may be a higher reason for it.
I do think that the enlightened Beings can manifest as anything be it even a murderer, if it has some benefit in the long run.
This is not is question, I believe, by anyone in the forum. This is straightforward Buddhist doctrine.
I strongly do NOT agree with the Dalai Lama's actions in the ban on Dorje Shugden practice. I also do not agree with his passive endorsement of ostracising Shugdenpas in the Tibetan monasteries and refugee camps. Definitely NOT.
Smart woman
However, my personal viewpoint (and it's not that i want to persuade you that it's the correct one but just what i have personally chosen) is that I will respect the Dalai lama for who he represents. If he is not real, i lose nothing. If he is the real deal, i haven't been cursing a Buddha. Even if it's 100% sure he is fake (although in our deluded mind, we can never be 100% sure?), I would still not critisise him because Dorje shugden said we shouldn't.(sic)
This is where I think you are still struggling. I think you find it difficult NOT to promote this view. You seem to want it to be true so very much, and in this I sympathize with you. I think everyone here remembers holding this view at some point early in their DS/DL experience. But it's time for us all to grow up now.
The dog tooth story followed by your summation "In that sense, if we view the Dalai Lama as Chenrezig, whether he is or not, only we will gain the benefit." is clearly advice from you on how to apply the Buddhdist scriptures to the Dalai Lama.
Again, as on other threads, your view is technically correct, straight out of a book. It is the application that lacks sophistication.
Respect the Dalai Lama if you want, but to avoid valid criticism because someone might be a Buddha means one can never criticize anyone, ever. Only a moony-eyed Brand new Buddhist, someone who completely mistakes the teachings based on a misplaced idealism, would try to practice this way.
ANYONE could be a Buddha! If there were a child molester who was responsible for the children of an orphanage and he was doing his thing, would you speak out? Criticize? Say "He is a child molester" when others couldn't see what the problem was?
Would you respect him for "who he represents?" (Children with no protector?)
Would you say, "Well, he COULD be a Buddha manifesting to give these defenseless children some lojong opportunities, or perhaps by molesting them he is creating the causes for them to develop renunciation and compassion. By creating such a scandal, he is bring the problems of Child Molestation to a wider audience..... etc etc ."
When someone behaves like a monster, you speak out.
If he is the real deal, i haven't been cursing a Buddha.
Although I am certain you mean it in good faith, this is essentially a suggestion to others that if they criticize the DL, they are flirting with aeons in hell. It is a form of intimidation-discourse that many western Buddhists have happily picked up from the Tibetans.
No one said ANYTHING about cursing anyone. This view seems to be a default view of those who want to make nicey-nice with the World's leading religious dictator. I can honestly say, it is baffling to me how this view continues to appear here. Either you go along like a sheep, or you hate (curse) the Dalai Lama (and by extension, end up in the lower realms for it). So let's everyone be careful, shall we?
These are not the only options here. Please consult many other postings where this view is clearly refuted, over and over again.
You are correct, you cannot be 100% he is a fake, but can you give me one reason to suggest he's not? Don't we have to finally act on the evidence, especially when it is so overwhelming??
DID Dorje Shugden in fact "Say" not to lose faith in the Dalai Lama. When did he say this? To whom was he speaking? you? Are you certain about this? I can tell you I am not. And if he did, what did he mean?
I would be happy if you would answer, please.
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Looking at the photos, Jamseng Rinpoche along with his monks and nuns are no longer wearing the yellow inner vest but wearing the green colored vest. What does this symbolise? A new lineage?
Green color is used to represent as Kadhampa. Green colour represents the Buddhas' activities and also Tara as well. Atisha relies on Tara as well. The Gelug is actually New Kadhampa Lineage. Kadhampa is not new at all and it is reverting and advocate the way of the Kadhampa master's spirit in practicing Dharma.
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I just noticed that Denma Locho Rinpoche and Jamseng Rinpoche are reported in another article: Desecrating the Dharma???? Another 'interesting' article from Singapore!! [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=554.0[/url] which reported that Jamseng Rinpoche conned Denma Locho Rinpoche to take photos with him. Is the article below true?
Looking at the photos, Jamseng Rinpoche along with his monks and nuns are no longer wearing the yellow inner vest but wearing the green colored vest. What does this symbolise? A new lineage?
That's part of their China strategy!
Everybody talk about the big business opportunities in China, and they started penetrating this 'religious market' already.
In 2007, 'Jamseng Rinpoche' had his relic show in Wutaishan, Manjushiri's holy place. They also sponsored a local monastery in Zhejiang, where the Avalokiteshvara Pota Island located. I believe there were more activities un-exposed yet. As their fellow appear more often in China's web recently, it seems they gained some success.
Forming the Kadhampa Buddhist Association in 2008 further fine-tune their marketing road-map in China:
- change of company logo: with green colored vest they can distant themselves from the Gelukpa mainstream which make them easier to deal with the local officials. They can claim that they are a lineage not associated with Tibetan(remember Mar 08 there were turbulence in Tibet) to the officials, at the same time they got 'essence of Tibetan Buddhism' to attract the locals.
- organization re-structuring: with the new 'Rinpoche assignment methodology', they can have 45 Rinpoche in their organization. To cover the Taiwan/ASEAN region, they have 15 'Rinpoches' assigned already. So there are 30 vacancies left, enough for further assignment to their fellows in mainland(who really work things out for them), and giving away to some locals( as honorable gesture to build up affiliated). Please note that there are 32 provinces in China and assigning one manager to handle 2-3 provinces is quite a common practice for MNC running office in Beijing.
I suspect that the recent preach of 'Pachen supporting DS' and 'DS follower growing in China' are part of their 'business progress report'.
It is just about business...
PS: If uou are are able to read their websites, you would find that they got no mentioning of any recent Tibetan masters. 'Jamseng Rinpoche' is 'the biggest Living Buddha of all Living Buddhas' in their words, even Serkong Tritul is lightly mentioned. Their intention is quite obvious.
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Dear Wang,
How do you know the intentions of these people? Why do you portray them as mere merchants trying to sell Dharma?
I don´t think it´s fair to accuse them based on the color of clothing and a propensity to find Rinpoches. Are they teaching Dharma or not? This is what one should be checking.
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Dear a friend,
I wonder you can read Chinese or not?
Without reading through their sites by yourself, it would be hard to convince you that it is exactly what the Han Buddhist community's view about them. I have tried to use as much quote from their sites as possible, please not take it as my mere invention. I am doing a translation only.
In general, they have a very non-Gelukpa style of presentation.
About dharma:
- They don't have books print by big publication house, but have some sadhana of their own print which once appeared in the Buddhist bookstore(but only once,not anymore).
- Their sites don't have Jamseng or Serkong Tritul's teaching available.
- They do have their tsog, fire puja etc. (otherwise it won't be a center...)
About relics show:
- They didn't price it, but I do know a case of someone bought it from them a few years ago, not by small dollar. Chinese is quite crazy of relics.
Tsem Rinpoche of Malaysia take a non-traditional style in his activities, he is not non-disputable in the Han Buddhist community either. But as we can download his teachings from his site to see what he really taught about, all his center's items(statue, protector knots etc.) are priced publicly, his center has books of various topics published, and even recently a big Taiwanese publication house has his book about guru devotion printed, I won't doubt he is spreading the Dharma, though in a bit non-traditional way. But sorry that I am not convinced of accepting Kadhampa Buddhist Association's style to be contributing the same as Tsem Rinpoche did...
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ANYONE could be a Buddha! If there were a child molester who was responsible for the children of an orphanage and he was doing his thing, would you speak out? Criticize? Say "He is a child molester" when others couldn't see what the problem was?
Would you respect him for "who he represents?" (Children with no protector?)
Would you say, "Well, he COULD be a Buddha manifesting to give these defenseless children some lojong opportunities, or perhaps by molesting them he is creating the causes for them to develop renunciation and compassion. By creating such a scandal, he is bring the problems of Child Molestation to a wider audience..... etc etc ."
When someone behaves like a monster, you speak out.
An unfortunate, but perfect analogy. I hope it opens peoples eyes.
DID Dorje Shugden in fact "Say" not to lose faith in the Dalai Lama. When did he say this? To whom was he speaking? you? Are you certain about this? I can tell you I am not. And if he did, what did he mean?
I would be happy if you would answer, please.
Perhaps it only means not to lose faith in the pure nature of living beings (i.e., living beings are not their delusions). This does not deny that they have delusions, only that the faults we normally see in a person are actually the faults of their delusions. The only appropriate response to a deluded person is compassion, as well as restraining them from harming others, which is exactly what I see people in the WSS and others doing. They seem to be avoiding both extremes of idolizing the person or cursing him.
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Dear a friend,
I wonder you can read Chinese or not?
Without reading through their sites by yourself, it would be hard to convince you that it is exactly what the Han Buddhist community's view about them. I have tried to use as much quote from their sites as possible, please not take it as my mere invention. I am doing a translation only.
In general, they have a very non-Gelukpa style of presentation.
About dharma:
- They don't have books print by big publication house, but have some sadhana of their own print which once appeared in the Buddhist bookstore(but only once,not anymore).
- Their sites don't have Jamseng or Serkong Tritul's teaching available.
- They do have their tsog, fire puja etc. (otherwise it won't be a center...)
About relics show:
- They didn't price it, but I do know a case of someone bought it from them a few years ago, not by small dollar. Chinese is quite crazy of relics.
Tsem Rinpoche of Malaysia take a non-traditional style in his activities, he is not non-disputable in the Han Buddhist community either. But as we can download his teachings from his site to see what he really taught about, all his center's items(statue, protector knots etc.) are priced publicly, his center has books of various topics published, and even recently a big Taiwanese publication house has his book about guru devotion printed, I won't doubt he is spreading the Dharma, though in a bit non-traditional way. But sorry that I am not convinced of accepting Kadhampa Buddhist Association's style to be contributing the same as Tsem Rinpoche did...
Dear Wang,
Perhaps you might not agree or find Jamseng Rinpoche's style or methods of teaching agreeable or even beneficial but do bear in mind that there are many people out there who have benefited from his teachings, who like his methods and who are probably practising Dharma because of him. Methods vary quite differently from teacher to teacher and there will definitely be some that we do not like. Yes perhaps some of what he does may look "commercial" to some people, but it may be what other people are attracted to and like, and therefore will be led to practise Dharma from there. Also, they may get a lot of sponsorship but who are we to comment on this - what are they using the sponsorship for? If results is anything to go by, they are have certainly brought many people to dharma, so they must be doing something very well. I certainly have not heard of them doing anything harmful to anyone.
In any case, it is dangerous, I believe to start judging Lamas and their intentions, methods and styles. After all, have we been monks/nuns, taken vows, studied in the monasteries and practised Dharma as much as them? If we haven't, and if we are just laypeople, then who are we to criticise and comment on their methods? And there are many, many lamas out there - if you don't like this particular Lama's methods, then there are many others who you could choose to follow as a Guru.
Yes, we may not agree with their style, but we can still maintain respect and not judge or criticise. After all, we all have our own karma to answer to at the end of the day.
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Dear Wang,
Perhaps you might not agree or find Jamseng Rinpoche's style or methods of teaching agreeable or even beneficial but do bear in mind that there are many people out there who have benefited from his teachings, who like his methods and who are probably practising Dharma because of him. Methods vary quite differently from teacher to teacher and there will definitely be some that we do not like. Yes perhaps some of what he does may look "commercial" to some people, but it may be what other people are attracted to and like, and therefore will be led to practise Dharma from there. Also, they may get a lot of sponsorship but who are we to comment on this - what are they using the sponsorship for? If results is anything to go by, they are have certainly brought many people to dharma, so they must be doing something very well. I certainly have not heard of them doing anything harmful to anyone.
In any case, it is dangerous, I believe to start judging Lamas and their intentions, methods and styles. After all, have we been monks/nuns, taken vows, studied in the monasteries and practised Dharma as much as them? If we haven't, and if we are just laypeople, then who are we to criticise and comment on their methods? And there are many, many lamas out there - if you don't like this particular Lama's methods, then there are many others who you could choose to follow as a Guru.
Yes, we may not agree with their style, but we can still maintain respect and not judge or criticise. After all, we all have our own karma to answer to at the end of the day.
Dear honeydakini,
You are the best! ;D
Maintaining and running a non profit organization is no easy feat and needs sponsorship to keep going. A growing organization needs to adopt strategies in order to expand and attract more people, this applies to non profit organizations as well.
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Dear Wang,
Thank you for your answer. Unfortunately I don't read Chinese.
Thank you for trying to shed some light to dispel my ignorance. I definitely share your worries about the "selling Dharma" subject. This is something I am very sensitive to, I can assure you.
Nevetheless I don't think it possible to judge a Lama and a Dharma Center through a website or through a couple of hearsays.
To tell you the truth, after the events we have witnessed coming from Dharamsala I tend to be very open and not too demanding. If they are not harming others in any serious way I am not ready to judge their "style" as a Dharma Center. Are they spreading Dharma? It seems so. Are they approved by everybody? No. But not even Lord Buddha Shakyamuni was universally accepted ... So let's hope for the best.
Thank you again for your message.
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Maintaining and running a non profit organization is no easy feat and needs sponsorship to keep going. A growing organization needs to adopt strategies in order to expand and attract more people, this applies to non profit organizations as well.
Yes. While I remain cynical concerning some relics, what you lightning said here is absolutely true.
It is easy to think that everything just falls from the sky, or that money pops out of nothingness, but the truth is, that if one wants to promote and spread the Dharma in this human world, one needs money and resources, and they do not come by themselves. In one thread here I linked Gregory Schopen's lecture called "Buddha as a Businessman", and I think everyone should watch it. Buddhism is a realistic and rational religion, so even from the Day One, there has been a keen sense of having to "pay the bills" so to speak.
Mere faith might be enough for a singular practitioner, but for a Dharma-organization, more is needed. That means income. Money.
Heck, there are good historical examples of selfish Dharma-businesses turned good (I do not imply that Jangsem is doing this, I merely wish to mention that Dharma is great). Prime example is Marpa, who started to translate Dharma just to get money, but eventually the texts changed his mind, and he became a real practitioner, and became enlightened, and furthermore, his realizations gave birth to the powerful Kagyu-schools. So even if the initial motivation might be base, there is a great hope!
So maybe Jangsem does things in an unusual way, but so what? We "shugdenites of today" are not mainstream either. ;D All discussions of this kind should end in the discussion of whether there is Dharma taught. If Jangsem provides that, then all is well. Or should be, at least.
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I suppose most of the difference in view here are due to mis-match of information. Below are biographies of Serkong Tritul and ‘Jamseng Rinpoche’ as presented in their website:
a. Serkong Tritul
Here is a list of his previous lives :
1. White Manjushiri, 2.Maha Kashyapa, 3.Nagarjuna , 4. Chandrakirti, 5..., 6. Shantideva, 7...., 8. ..., 9.Great translator Vairochana, 10. Atisha, 11...., 12...., 13...., 14...., 15. Great Vehicle Dharma King Kunjesinpa (note: a Sakyapa grant title of Dharma King by the Ming emperor, the other two most famous grant with Dharma King titles were Karmapa and Jamchen Choeje Shakya Yeshi , founder of Sera Monastery), 16. 4th Ganden Tripa, 17. 13rd Ganden Tripa, 18...., 19.32th Ganden Tripa, 20...., 21. 56th Ganden Tripa, 22. Hui Hung Rinpoch, 23.Hui tong Rinpoche,24.Hui Peng Rinpoche, 25.Hui Yuen Rinpoche.
Note: ‘Serkong Tritul’ is not the name most commonly quoted in their web-site. Instead the title of ‘Most Venerable the 25th Great Vehicle Dharma King ’ and ‘39th Yamantaka lineage holder’ are the most frequently quote.
b. ‘Jamseng Rinpoche’
Unlike Serkong Tritul , there are a lot information about ‘Jamseng Rinpoche’ in their web-site,. Here is some translation from their site:
- The venerable 6th Jamseng Rinpoche’s past lives are: 1.Mahipa(one of the 84 Mahasiddhas), 2. Dromtonpa (founder of Kamdapa), 3. Sakya Pandita (the 4th Sayka great master) 4. Jamyang Choje( Founder of Drepung Monastery) 5…6. Jamseng Rinpoche…
- …The current 6th Jamseng Rinpoche is said to be ‘the biggest Living Buddha out of all living Buddha’, ‘Sangha King out of the sangha’, holding super high degree in sutra, and high degree in tantra. He is first abbot of Nepal’s biggest monastery(Great Vihecle Monastery, with 2600 monks)…Jamseng Rinpoche hold a superior position, practicing Shakyamuni Buddha and Je Tsongkapa’s sutric/tantric total lineage…and got dieties’ endorsement. During practice in Taiwan, chakra appeared in the window glass. Duing Yamantaka fire puja in NZ, 5 color appeared in the mandala. 5 color appeared during dharma teaching in HK and in Malaysia. Yamantaka appeared during fire puja in Singapore…
The site further say that:
Jamseng Rinpoche has fully mastered the three vehicle, four views of tenets, four tantra, four initiations, generation stage, completion stage, all teachings from Tsongkapa’s lineage.
The site further on his biography, I make it concise here:
- Born in 1964 in Taiwan
- By end 1994, met Serkong Tritul and received the Yamantaka initiation from him. Got a dream about lightning, earth split and decided to be monk.
- 1995 tonsured by Serkong Tritul
- 1996 recognize as Jamseng Rinpoche by Serkong Tritul
- 1996 enthroned as Jamseng Rinpoche in Gaden monastery. Received Sramanera Precepts and got ordained by Sera Abbot Sayka Rinpoche in Tibet.
- 1997 appointed as 1st abbot of Great Vehicle Monastery in Nepal by Serkong Tritul
- 1998 performed tonsure ceremony for over 300 kids in the Great Vehicle Monastery
- 1999 recognize as one of the high Dharma King in Tibet by Serkong Tritul, with previous lives as Mahipa, Dromtonpa , Sakya Pandita etc..
- 2000 Received highest sutra and tantra degree from Great Vehicle monastery
Here is translation of his ‘Tulku certificate’ from their site:
Tulku Certificate
Father Tsei MG, the 6th Jamseng Rinpoche named Tsei JT
Studied in the Great Vehicle Monastery on subjects of Treatise on Valid Cognition, Ornament of Clear Realization, Introduction to the Middle Way, Abhidharma, The Root of the Vinaya (ie. The 5 texts), three vehicle four tenets, fully master sutra scripture and grant with doctor degree in sutra, called the Super-Lharampa Degree.
Jointly by
Nepal Great Vehicle Monastery Great Vehicle Dharma King
Great Vehicle Monastery Abbot Date: July 3rd 2000
PS: by 2008, with setup of Kadhampa Buddhist Association, 6th Jamseng Rinpoche's new name is 18th Drom-Tug Rinpoche, Drom stands for Dromtonpa, Tug stands for mind. No re-incarnation list of his previous 17 lives provided yet. Same case for the other 14 'Rinpoche', who mostly be 18th re-incarnations of Atisha's disciples.
In essence,
i. For Jamseng Rinpoche :
He was ordained in 1996, be abbot of the ‘Great Vehicle Monastery’ in 1997(which was bought by Serkong Tritul in same year), and by 2000, he got a ‘Super Lharampa Degree’ from the same monastery which he has been abbot. He completed equivalent of Lharampa degree(if not superior to it) in 3 year’s time, 4 years after ordination!
ii. For Serkong Tritul
Besides the re-incarnation list as 25th Great Vehicle Dharma King, there is not much other information available in their sites. To supplement the missing part, this is re-construction of his biography based on input from ex-members of his center, magazine and bits and pieces from his site:
Serkong Tritul was born in 1965 in Nepal. By age 11 he entered Sera Monastery, and moved to Gaden Monastery afterwards. He studied in the monasteries for 10 years. At age of 21, he left Gaden Monastery to Singapore, then in 1989 to Taiwan. He was never recognized as a tulku in Sera or Gaden Monastery, but started to self-claim name of Serkong Tritul in Taiwan. It was in early stage of Tibetan Buddhism development in Taiwan, he was a pioneer bringing in the Gelukpa teachings to Taiwan(note: with 10 years stay in the monasteries, his mastering of Buddhist tenets would be far deeper than a lot average Han Buddhist monks already. ).
The turn-around point about Serkong Tritul was in 1992. He was involved in a sex scandal, accused of rape by a girl serving in his center. He admitted having sex with this girl to the police(so his admission was documented by the Police), but denied of rape. The charge was resolved at the end after the girl gave up the accusation (note:she died a few years later out of cancer, said to be due to depression). Serkong Tritul left Taiwan after the event, and back in 1994 fall with more title (ie. The 25th Great Vehicle Dharma King and four times be Gaden tripa etc.). In 1997, he bought a monastery in Nepal and named it ‘Great Vehicle Monastery’, which is root monastery of his organization afterwards.
lightning said:
‘Serkong Tritul Rinpoche was groomed up by Song Rinpoche from young and had maintained as the top debater in Ganden Monastery. Zemey Rinpoche passed all the Yamantaka Lineages to Serkong Tritul Rinpoche making Him the Lineage holder of Lone Yamantaka. He also acquired 8 Maha Teachings and many others valuable uncommon teachings from various renowned masters, like Guru Deva, Kensur Rinpoche Sonam Kunga, Zemey Rinoche, Locho Rinpoche etc.’.
Serkong Tritul(by then his name was Thitill Lobsang Jyongne, not Serkong Tritul) was just a ordinary monk, most probably not even completed the Madhyamaka Uma class when he left the monastery. How possible would it be for Zemey Rinpoche to grant him 39th Yamantaka Lineage Holder?
I am not saying that Serkong Tritul didn’t receive any teachings from those high lamas, or received any financial support from them. But as an ordinary student monk, he got no privilege as like those tulkus who can jump class or receive special transmission on special event. So if he did receive any teachings from those high lamas during that time, it would not be ‘uncommon teachings’ specific for him, but to all the monks in the monastery. If he did receive any care from the high lamas, it would be a support to all young monks who has financial difficulties by then, not specific for him.
Serkong Tritul is benefactor to a lot high lamas and DS related sangha, which is what I rejoice at. That’s why although the portraits about him and ‘Jamseng Rinpoche’ here differ a lot from the Han Buddhist community, I didn’t say much. However, recently I notice that here started to have attack on other Rinpoche(or centers) who don’t recognize Kadhampa Buddhist Association’s activities, as demonstrated in this thread, or other posts about CAS’s web(which is not DS related), although I am not connected to Khensur Rinpoche/CAS, by law of ‘action and reaction’, I felt obliged to provide some further information about them in the Chinese media.
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I suppose most of the difference in view here are due to mis-match of information. Below are biographies of Serkong Tritul and ‘Jamseng Rinpoche’ as presented in their website:
Serkong Tritul(by then his name was Thitill Lobsang Jyongne, not Serkong Tritul) was just a ordinary monk, most probably not even completed the Madhyamaka Uma class when he left the monastery. How possible would it be for Zemey Rinpoche to grant him 39th Yamantaka Lineage Holder?
I am not saying that Serkong Tritul didn’t receive any teachings from those high lamas, or received any financial support from them. But as an ordinary student monk, he got no privilege as like those tulkus who can jump class or receive special transmission on special event. So if he did receive any teachings from those high lamas during that time, it would not be ‘uncommon teachings’ specific for him, but to all the monks in the monastery. If he did receive any care from the high lamas, it would be a support to all young monks who has financial difficulties by then, not specific for him.
If you think that Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is an ordinary monk maybe the attached pictures of many high ranking lamas offered Him white Silk scarf (Ka Tas) speaks a thousand words. I will try my best to translate the names of the lamas if there is time and with my best knowledge, If anyone can reconsiged them kindly help me to correct the names of these high lamas
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Serkong Tritul Rinpoche in His age 16 years
Left 1: Rinpoche
Middle: Rinpoche
right: Serkong Kangzhu Rinpoche
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Serkong Rinpoche offering to Ji Cai Se Jia Rinpoche
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Abbot of a monastery: Geshe Palayoubeng Rinpoche
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Left 1: Ji Kang Zi Rinpoche
Middle: Geshe Tenzin ji Ba Rinpoche
right: Rinpoche
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Offering Taka: Loh Cai Rinpoche
Left: Geshe Tenzin Ji Ba Rinpoche
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Left 1: Yu Lin Rinpoche
Left 2: Dan Zhu Rinpoche
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Offering Taka: Dalai Lama's steward Ji Cai Qi Dan
Left 1: Geshe Serkong ...
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More...
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Offering KaTa: Geshe
Left 1: Trijiang Rinpoche Steward Qi Zai
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Highest Throne: 98th Gaden Tripa
Offering KaTa: Gaden Monastery Current ... Geshe Lobsang Du ji
Right 1: Geshe Lobsang An Zhu
Left 1: Geshe Dama Lo sang
Serkong Ga Se Rinpoche and 3000 Lamas
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Offering KaTa: Qi Ji Lama
Left 1: Geshe Lobsang Tenzin