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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: thaimonk on October 09, 2018, 09:50:22 PM

Title: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: thaimonk on October 09, 2018, 09:50:22 PM
Why does Lama Zopa and The Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition (FPMT) still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?

1. Since Lama Yeshe practiced Dorje Shugden his whole life, isn't he disqualified as a teacher?

2. The Dalai Lama said, those who practice Shugden will go to Hell or three lower realms. Since Lama Yeshe went to hell, why does Lama Zopa and FPMT keep his statues throughout their centre? Isn't he a hell being? Why worship a hell being?

3. Since Lama Yeshe worshipped Dorje Shugden, that means all teachings, lineages, oral transmissions, initiations passed from Lama Yeshe to Lama Zopa and many disciples are corrupted. So since all that is from Lama Yeshe is corrupted, why keep a statue of him on the shrine? Why worship corruption?

4. Does keeping a statue of Lama Yeshe on the shrine send the wrong message to their disciples? Since Dalai Lama banned Shugden and banned Shugden lamas, should Lama Yeshe be posthumously banned?

5. Why does FPMT condemn other lamas and organizations that practice Shugden and yet silent on their own founder Lama Yeshe? Why do they still have Lama Yeshe's books in print and still selling? Why do they promote teachings by Lama Yeshe on videos?

6. Since teachings, initiations and practices from Lama Yeshe to his disciples in FPMT namely Lama Zopa and the older students are corrupted, why do they continue practicing these teachings and passing them on to new students?

7. Why do FPMT encourage new students to pay homage and worship Lama Yeshe's statue? Since the statue is placed on their shrines, it becomes an automatic object of worship? It becomes an automatic object of respect.

9. All pictures, books, audios, videos, thangkas, practices, statues of Lama Yeshe throughout their FPMT should be eliminated and then FPMT can become clean. Why do they not eliminate everything? Why the double standard?

10. Since Lama Yeshe went to hell, why does FPMT ask the Dalai Lama to recognize Lama Osel? Is Lama Osel fake? Because Lama Yeshe practiced Shugden his whole life and he is supposedly in hell now according to the Dalai Lama? So why is Lama Osel recognized? This makes everyone contradict everything they say about Shugden? So does that mean practicing Shugden does not take you to hell? But Dalai Lama said it does? But Lama Osel is back. So which one is it? Is Lama Osel fake? Or Shugden does not take you to hell? Is Dalai Lama wrong or how?

11. Lama Zopa is recognized by Dorje Shugden (via the Dromo Geshe Oracle in Dungkar Monastery in Tibet), so is Dorje Shugden wrong by recognizing Lama Zopa? Lama Zopa is a fake tulku since recognized by Shugden? (read more- http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=49.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=49.0))

Why are they not doing all this and still keeping images and teachings of Lama Yeshe? Anyone has an answer?

Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: pemachen on October 09, 2018, 10:59:26 PM
The Dalai Lama said, those who practice Shugden will go to Hell or three lower realms. Since Lama Yeshe went to hell, why does Lama Zopa and FPMT keep his statues throughout their centre? Isn't he a hell being? Why worship a hell being?


(http://i65.tinypic.com/20ssoys.jpg)

(http://i67.tinypic.com/119azrb.jpg)

Based on His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama’s confirmation of Lama Zopa’s observations, Ösel Hita Torres was recognized as the unmistaken incarnation of Lama Yeshe. He was subsequently enthroned as Tenzin Ösel Rinpoche on March 1987 at Tushita Retreat Centre in Dharamsala, India.

This really confuses the public. If those who rely on Dorje Shugden take rebirth in hell or the three lower realms, so is Ösel Hita Torres fake? So if Lama Yeshe has returned as Ösel Hita Torres, so obviously those who practice Dorje Shugden don't go to hell or the three lower realms then? 

I find it odd that they still have Shugden lamas on their teachers' list, or rather, Lama Zopa Rinpoche’s Teachers as they wrote it. This list is on the same category where they listed the anti-Shugden "Collection of Advice Regarding Shugden (Dolgyal)"  ::)

Why feature these lamas who are supposed to be polluted and going to the three lower realms for practising Dorje Shugden? I really wonder why they feature these lamas on the website. 8) See the image below taken from the FPMT website: https://fpmt.org/teachers/lineage-lamas/ (https://fpmt.org/teachers/lineage-lamas/)

Let's see, there's HH Ling Rinpoche who wrote prayers to Dorje Shugden, Kyabje Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo who's definitely one of the biggest proponents of Dorje Shugden practice, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche who wrote "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protector", the comprehensive text that explains Dorje Shugden's enlightened nature, function and history, there's Kyabje Zong Rinpoche who practices and gives initiation of Shugden to many, including in the West (including Tsem Tulku, before he was recognised as a tulku). The rest, Tsenshab Serkong Rinpoche, HH Serkong Dorje Chang, Geshe Rabten Rinpoche, Ribur Rinpoche, Choden Rinpoche, Khensur Denma Locho Rinpoche, Khyongla Rato Rinpoche... almost all of them are Shugden lamas! So should all these teachers and their reincarnations be banned from teaching in FPMT too?

(http://i65.tinypic.com/14kfn92.png)
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: AshRao on October 09, 2018, 11:02:18 PM
Thaimonk has raised some very interesting questions regarding the veneration of Lama Yeshe within FPMT. I guess the only reason they are keeping images, statues, teachings by Lama Yeshe is because it would invalidate their entire organisation, let alone their religious practices if they were to denounce Lama Yeshe as a Dorje Shugden practitioner.

A lot of interesting points were raised about the fact that Lama Yeshe was a Shugdenpa, and if FPMT so fanatically denounce Dorje Shugden why are they not denouncing Lama Yeshe too. It doesn't make sense unless you realise that they are being hypocritical because doing so would invalidate themselves. And that is another point, don't they even realise that what they are saying about other Shugdenpa's applies to themselves since their very spiritual organisation was founded by one!

It's really absurd if you think about it. Ask an ordinary FPMT member what they think about Dorje Shugden and be ready for a hounding diatribe against practitioners. But ask them about Lama Yeshe and all they talk about is multicoloured clouds and rainbows. Lama Yeshe was definitely a great being, a light in the world for sure AND he was a Shugdenpa. But FPMT simply want to brush that under the carpet in order to give a facade of keeping up with the Joneses. A real shame if you ask me. Lama Yeshe should be celebrated for his entire being, not just the parts of his life that were politically correct according to today's standards.

I leave you with another photo of that same statue I think. Its beautiful and depressing at the same. Beautiful to see Lama Zopa venerating Lama Yeshe, but depressing to know what has happened to Lama Yeshe's legacy of Dorje Shugden practice.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: aboutthetruth on October 09, 2018, 11:11:48 PM
Why are they not doing all this and still keeping images and teachings of Lama Yeshe? Anyone has an answer?

Denial is not just a river in Egypt...

If I’m going to be honest, I think it’s nothing more than a financially motivated decision. Watching a Dorje Shugden lama like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche performing funerary rites for their teacher then ditching their teacher’s practice, I can’t imagine that any of that can lead to something positive.

But they probably excuse it away in their heads by saying it’s a small sacrifice to pay for spreading Dharma around the world. Well, I call BS on that. Fake Dharma has no blessings so there’s no point in spreading it anyway.

Just very disappointing seeing such a large organisation basically have no balls to stand up for what’s right and ethical.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: pemachen on October 09, 2018, 11:29:48 PM

Denial is not just a river in Egypt...

If I’m going to be honest, I think it’s nothing more than a financially motivated decision. Watching a Dorje Shugden lama like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche performing funerary rites for their teacher then ditching their teacher’s practice, I can’t imagine that any of that can lead to something positive.

But they probably excuse it away in their heads by saying it’s a small sacrifice to pay for spreading Dharma around the world. Well, I call BS on that. Fake Dharma has no blessings so there’s no point in spreading it anyway.

Just very disappointing seeing such a large organisation basically have no balls to stand up for what’s right and ethical.


You have said the honest truth. I wish FPMT would really reflect this about their founding lamas lineage practice.

 Lama Zopa said:

Lama (Yeshe) and I practiced Shugden for many years. That was always the main thing that Lama did whenever there were problems to overcome. At the beginning of every Kopan course, Lama always did Shugden puja to eliminate hindrances.

(http://i67.tinypic.com/bdtq84.jpg)


Some other people couldn't keep mum anymore when it comes to FPMT.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/2i9coy.jpg)

More haunting pictures and stories here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-dalai-lama-and-dorje-shugden/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-dalai-lama-and-dorje-shugden/)
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Big Uncle on October 09, 2018, 11:34:27 PM
This is true, what FPMT is doing with promoting the worship of Lama Yeshe while condemning his lineage and practice of Dorje Shugden is contradictory at the very least. Its very obvious that FPMT broke their samaya and its no wonder Lama Osel, Lama Yeshe's incarnation is unable to manifest any Dharma work in this lifetime. It is very obvious that FPMT's samaya is in taters. They should really do something to restore things.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Alex on October 09, 2018, 11:34:42 PM
Thaimonk has raised some very interesting questions regarding the veneration of Lama Yeshe within FPMT. I guess the only reason they are keeping images, statues, teachings by Lama Yeshe is because it would invalidate their entire organisation, let alone their religious practices if they were to denounce Lama Yeshe as a Dorje Shugden practitioner.

A lot of interesting points were raised about the fact that Lama Yeshe was a Shugdenpa, and if FPMT so fanatically denounce Dorje Shugden why are they not denouncing Lama Yeshe too. It doesn't make sense unless you realise that they are being hypocritical because doing so would invalidate themselves. And that is another point, don't they even realise that what they are saying about other Shugdenpa's applies to themselves since their very spiritual organisation was founded by one!

It's really absurd if you think about it. Ask an ordinary FPMT member what they think about Dorje Shugden and be ready for a hounding diatribe against practitioners. But ask them about Lama Yeshe and all they talk about is multicoloured clouds and rainbows. Lama Yeshe was definitely a great being, a light in the world for sure AND he was a Shugdenpa. But FPMT simply want to brush that under the carpet in order to give a facade of keeping up with the Joneses. A real shame if you ask me. Lama Yeshe should be celebrated for his entire being, not just the parts of his life that were politically correct according to today's standards.

I leave you with another photo of that same statue I think. Its beautiful and depressing at the same. Beautiful to see Lama Zopa venerating Lama Yeshe, but depressing to know what has happened to Lama Yeshe's legacy of Dorje Shugden practice.

I agree with AshRao. The reason they are keeping all those images, statues, and teachings by their founder Lama Yeshe is that if they invalidate their own founder, they are actually directly invalidating their entire organization, practice, and lineage. They would not risk having their center to be called demon worshipping center, would they?  It is not logical for them to invalidate their founder but yet keep practicing his teachings.

In Tibetan Buddhism, we put great importance in the lineage and to ensure the lineage is authentic and unbroken. The lineage is very important because it is where the blessings will come through from Buddha Shakyamuni and lineage masters. It makes sure the teachings are from an authentic source and not made up by someone who had a dream or vision.

Lama Yeshe is well known to be a Dorje Shugden practitioners and they made a real life statue of him to be placed on their altar. Why are they making a statue of a demon practitioner to be placed on their altar? Did they just conveniently forget the fact that their founder is a Dorje Shugden practitioner? So they continued their practice, and their centers but turning a blind eye on the fact that their organization is founded by one of the most famous Dorje Shugden Lama out there?

It is amazing how FPMT can just look past that and pretend everything is fine when they had broken their samaya with their founder, Lama Yeshe.

Here is another picture of a real-life statue of a younger version of Lama Yeshe that will be installed at Vajrapani Institute’s new gompa.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: dsnowlion on October 09, 2018, 11:58:13 PM

Denial is not just a river in Egypt...

If I’m going to be honest, I think it’s nothing more than a financially motivated decision. Watching a Dorje Shugden lama like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche performing funerary rites for their teacher then ditching their teacher’s practice, I can’t imagine that any of that can lead to something positive.

But they probably excuse it away in their heads by saying it’s a small sacrifice to pay for spreading Dharma around the world. Well, I call BS on that. Fake Dharma has no blessings so there’s no point in spreading it anyway.

Just very disappointing seeing such a large organisation basically have no balls to stand up for what’s right and ethical.


You have said the honest truth. I wish FPMT would really reflect this about their founding lamas lineage practice.

 Lama Zopa said:

Lama (Yeshe) and I practiced Shugden for many years. That was always the main thing that Lama did whenever there were problems to overcome. At the beginning of every Kopan course, Lama always did Shugden puja to eliminate hindrances.

([url]http://i67.tinypic.com/bdtq84.jpg[/url])


Some other people couldn't keep mum anymore when it comes to FPMT.

([url]http://i65.tinypic.com/2i9coy.jpg[/url])

More haunting pictures and stories here: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-dalai-lama-and-dorje-shugden/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-dalai-lama-and-dorje-shugden/[/url])


This is truly so disappointing to see Lama Yeshe's hard work and pure motivation to spread the dharma via FPMT go down the drain because of politics. It is so sad that Lama Yeshe's students picked politics, wealth and fame over their own Lama who was the founder of FPMT.

Yes Thaimonk sure brought up some very good & interesting questions. Why would you (Lama Zopa & FPMT) condemn your very own teacher, spiritual master, spiritual father's practice and yet have his statue all over your centre? You are worshipping a Shugden Lama, so how is that okay and considered legit at all?

Why discriminate and condemn other Shugdenpas? Seems VERY hypocritical. So this shows FPMT is just all about politics not real Dharma. SAD :'(
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: phyag na rlangs pa on October 10, 2018, 12:17:24 AM
Quote
Kopan Monastery had been performing the Dorje Shugden practice from the beginning, as this was Lama Yeshe’s main protector, on whom he relied whenever he needed help for anything.

Thaimonk has raised some important points that show how Lama Zopa and FPMT's advice on Dorje Shugden show how bigoted they are.

It's evident from Lama Zopa's writings on FPMT sites that Dorje Shugden as Lama Yeshe's main protector has protected them and increased their growth as a Dharma institution.

Quote
If you are making a new Dharma connection with a teacher, aside from the other qualities of the teacher that you should check, you should also examine the teacher to make sure that he or she is in harmony with His Holiness Dalai Lama regarding the practice of what is called döl-gyäl, the protector Shugden. Make sure that the teacher does not do this practice. These days, that is an extra analysis you should make. In that way, you’ll avoid problems in the future.

For Lama Zopa to advise people to check that their teachers do not practice Shugden while his own teacher was one of the most devoted Dorje Shugden lamas has to be among the most hypocrite things to do.

Quote
If you have already made a Dharma connection with such teachers and you criticize them or give them up, that is totally incorrect; that is opposite to lam-rim practice. The lam-rim, sutra, and tantra teachings all explain how to practice guru devotion so that we can avoid creating such heavy negative karmas as criticizing our gurus. It’s for our benefit. Since we disciples want profit, not loss, since we aspire to achieve the highest profit, enlightenment, the complete qualities of cessation and realization, it is crucial to know how to practice guru devotion.

Lama Zopa should take his own advice on guru devotion - on how a student should not criticise his teacher or give them up is not only totally incorrect but will create negative karma. By Lama Zopa rejecting Lama Yeshe's Dorje Shugden practice, he has already rejected Lama Yeshe!

How does one fully accept the guru as an object of refuge, and confess love and devotion to the guru but at the same time think and say, "No, that thing the guru does is not correct."? Is this Lama Zopa's version on guru devotion? What a fake!

In Tibetan Buddhism, the qualities of a lama is often reflected on their practices, their yidams and the protectors they propitiate. FPMT's lineage stems from a lineage of Dorje Shugden lamas yet they publicly denounce Dorje Shugden lamas on their websites. If FPMT is proud of their lineage, they should be promoting the practices of the lamas in their lineage for it's those practices such as Dorje Shugden protector practice that have benefited them for so many decades.

I wonder when Lama Zopa visits the FPMT's Vajrapani Institute goma and sees 1,000 statues of Lama Yeshe, does he see 1,000 statues of Dorje Shugden?

If Shugden lamas, as Lama Zopa says, will take rebirth in hell, then I wonder what realm Lama Zopa will take rebirth in for:
1. Breaking his samaya with Lama Yeshe
2. Creating schism among the sangha community
3. Use the guru he broke samaya with to get donations
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: michaela on October 10, 2018, 12:33:54 AM

I find it very strange that a huge established Dharma center like FPMT, which was established by a Shugden lama, is so obsessed with being "clean"! Whether individual practitioners decide to practice Dorje Shugden or not, it is up to them.

But there is something not right with FPMT's obsession to appear "clean" by not practicing Dorje Shugden and tried to erase the Dorje Shugden heritage from their center. Lama Yeshe had relied on Dorje Shugden. Lama Zopa also had relied on Dorje Shugden. So why do they try to erase the traces of the practice by their own lama?

Why the students of FPMT could not see the contradiction in the Dalai Lama's statements. If Dorje Shugden practitioners are doomed to the lower realm, why did the Dalai Lama recognize the reincarnation of Lama Osel? Isn't that contradicting his own word?

Just something for FPMT to contemplate.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Tracy on October 10, 2018, 12:51:22 AM
We can see there are contradictions here in the anti-Shugden camp.

1. Lama Yeshe was a Dorje Shugden practitioner. If according to the Dalai Lama's theory that Dorje Shugden is a spirit, Lama Yeshe should be born in the three lower realms, why did the Dalai Lama recognise his reincarnation? If the reincarnation is real, it just means Dorje Shugden is not a spirit.

2. While the FPMT and other Gelug monasteries don't allow Dorje Shugden practitioners to participate in their Dharma teachings or activities, their own teachers actually received the teachings from Dorje Shugden lamas. For example, Lama Zopa, many of his teachers such as Lama Yeshe, Pabongkha Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten Rinpoche, etc were strong Dorje Shugden practitioners. If he has received teachings from Dorje Shugden lamas, then what he is teaching now would be corrupted. He should just close down all his centers.

3. Lama Zopa should not worship or have his students worship Lama Yeshe's statue. Lama Yeshe was a Dorje Shugden practitioner, why does Lama Zopa still worship a spirit worshiper? This is very confusing. If he has such devotion for Lama Yeshe, he should not have banned Dorje Shugden practice and discriminated Dorje Shugden practitioners. It is either he is completely against it, so he has to remove everything related to Lama Yeshe or admit that Dorje Shugden is not a spirit.

4. Lama Zopa should give an explanation to the students why when he said Dorje Shugden is a spirit but yet all FPMT centers still keep Lama Yeshe's statues and spread his teachings.

I personally think Lama Zopa knows Dorje Shugden is not a spirit, he might still be practising Dorje Shugden secretly. Perhaps he has made a promise to Lama Yeshe to protect their Dharma centers and don't go against the Dalai Lama. What he is doing now, is merely to keep his promise to his guru. Lama Yeshe as a highly attained lama, he must have known there would a ban on Dorje Shugden and given instruction to Lama Zope before he entered into clear light. By still worshiping Lama Yeshe and spreading his teachings, Lama Zopa is indirectly telling us Dorje Shugden is not a spirit, this might be the hidden message he wants everyone to know!
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: SabS on October 10, 2018, 01:36:08 AM
Yes, it is indeed strange that FPMT should keep the statue of Lama Yeshe on the altar where he bestows blessings on the practitioners? Being a Shugden practitioner, how can Lama Yeshe bestow blessings on the disciples if they deem Dorje Shugden to be evil? Being a lineage master that brought the practices to their centre, it just doesn't make sense to give up on their Guru and keep their practices. What blessings or attainments can they get from their practices? The most direct question would be how can the Dalai Lama recognise Lama Osel as the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe if Dorje Shugden practice will bring him to hell? Weird, weird, weird. Contradiction, hypocrisy?? Certainly no valid explanation at all. Lama Zopa had received the Dorje Shugden practice from his Guru, Lama Yeshe and one of the promise is to keep the practice close to heart and never give up. So did he break his Guru Samaya to look good and in line with the Tibetan Leaders or is he still a closet practitioner?

I find it interesting what Big Uncle said :
"Its very obvious that FPMT broke their samaya and its no wonder Lama Osel, Lama Yeshe's incarnation is unable to manifest any Dharma work in this lifetime. It is very obvious that FPMT's samaya is in taters. They should really do something to restore things." - Is that why Lama Osel is not interested in donning the robes and teachings to the disciples? I guess then Lama Yeshe's legacy is in taters. Lama Osel as a Western Monk would had been a very powerful Guru/Lama due his reach capacity to the Westerners. He would have been a living proof to the Westerners that it is possible to gain attainments through practice and realisatons. What a shame really!!
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: vajratruth on October 10, 2018, 05:10:26 AM
When I think of the FPMT and Lama Zopa Rinpoche, I cannot help but have this image of a huge and impressive oak tree that is hollowing out from the inside and rotting at the roots, beneath the surface. And I say this based on what I can gather from teachings from the Lama Yeshe's Archives itself.

When I first started to become interested in Tibetan Buddhism, there were scant information that I found to be reliable and consistent and with comprehensive information. There two resources I found which were helpful were lamayeshe.com and tsemrinpoche.com. Frankly after I heard about the Dorje Shugden ban, I stopped relying on lamayeshe.com because on the one hand Lama Yeshe was hailed by the FPMT and even Lama Zopa as a Buddha and on the other hand, they regard him as a fallen teacher because he was a keen practitioners of the deity they now regard as "dolgyal" apparently [to them now] a malicious deity and a common river ghost. I found these 2 thoughts disturbingly inconsistent.

In fact, a number of things about Lama Zopa and FPMT disturbing:

1. I read on numerous occasions that Lama Yeshe would never start anything important before consulting and propitiating this "ghost" including asking for this dolgyal's help to build what is today the FPMT. That got me stumped! Why would a malicious river ghost help Lama Yeshe build what was then a Buddhist fortress that preaches Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings? Wouldn't helping lama Yeshe build a Dharma institute be the act of a being who is synonymous with the dharma and not the anti-dharma? I mean a malicious being would surely wish to see any institution propagating the dharma fail or become destroyed.

2. As a new student of Lama Tsongkhapa's lineage, one of the first texts I was taught was the Yön-ten-shir-gyur-ma. In fact, it was taught by Khunu Rinpoche and translated by Lama Zopa to the students in Nepal in 1975! And the very first line said:

The foundation of all good qualities is the kind and venerable guru;
Correct devotion to him is the root of the path.
By clearly seeing this and applying great effort,
Please bless me to rely upon him with great respect.


And a few stanzas later, I read this for the first time which moved me deeply:

At that time, the basis of accomplishing the two attainments
Is keeping pure vows and samaya.
Having become firmly convinced of this,
Please bless me to protect these vows and pledges like my life.


I was told that the above stanzas meant that the foundation for Bodhicitta and Wisdom i.e. the two pre-requisites for enlightenment, is to keep the vows and commitments made to especially to the Guru and to guard these with our lives!

So why did Lama Zopa teach this key practice in 1975 and then go on to break his commitments to his Guru and the very Dharma Protector who must have also be one with his Guru, Lama Yeshe, after it became politically correct to do so??? So, what is it - vows or commitments or become sycophantically and politically correct? And why does Lama Zopa now prevent FPMT students from practicing this key "foundation" of Vajrayana? Why does the FPMT claim to follow Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings even though they have demolished the foundations Tsongkhapa said to establish and protect with their lives?

This instructions were written by Lama Tsongkhapa himself! Lama Zopa's abandonment of his teacher's practice of Dorje Shugden and encouraging/forcing others to do so means that, not only does he think Lama Yeshe was wrong but also that Lama Tsongkhapa was wrong. Lama Tsongkhapa did not teach "...please bless me to protect these vows and pledges until it became financially and politically beneficial to break them..."

If the FPMT no longer trusts Lama Tsongkhapa's sintructions, why not tear down FPMT and start Lama Zopa own lineage that cherry picks what teachings suit them and discard what doesn't. Why even keep LamaYeshe.com up (not to mention the statue of Lama Yeshe) when it was written by such a 'hopeless' Lama who could not tell the difference between an enlightened Dharma Protector and a common ghost???

Either you believe through and through and keep your commitments and vows all the way as Lama Tsongkhapa instructed or you cannot regard yourself as a legitimate holder of the lineage.

3. By the FPMT's own reckoning, Lama Zopa is a bit of a demon worshipper. Not by my words but by actions of Lama Zopa - (i) first by still,venerating Lama Yeshe, a demon practitioner again by the FPMT's reckoning since Lama Trusted trusted "dolgyal" so much and (ii) Later I read that Lama Zopa would also pay respects and worship the holy stupa with Trijang Dorje Chang's remains are kept. [see thishttp://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/lama-zopa-worships-trijang-rinpoches-stupa/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/lama-zopa-worships-trijang-rinpoches-stupa/)

Why would Lama Zopa worship Trijang Dorje Chang's holy stupa unless he believed and knew that it contained the relics of a Buddha? If Dorje Shugden is truly a demonic force, then Trijang Dorje Chang was at fault because it was Trijang Dorje Chang was the one who taught that Dorje Shugden is in fact Manjushri, the same belief Lama Yeshe held. Shouldn't Lama Zopa and his FPMT campaign to destroy the stupa and throw away the ashes like they did with the ashes of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen who arose as Dorje Shugden? To be seen worshipping Trijang Dorje Chang's holy stupa is to encourage others to do the same. Why do the opposite of what you preach?

Again this is highly inconsistent.

Hence my opening words i.e. I cannot help but think of Lama Zopa and FPMT as hollow since they renounced Dorje Shugden.

4. And to cap it all off, Lama Zopa himself wrote that he was recognised by the oracle of Domo Geshe's monastery and who else can this oracle be but the hugely famous oracle of Dorje Shugden.

Lama Zopa wrote:

"...Next day in the morning my aunt made a very nice thermos of tea and bread in a bamboo container inside a basket and took me to the small branch monastery of Domo Geshe Rinpoche’s main monastery about fifteen to twenty minutes’ walk away, where I met the tall monk again – he was the Lopon of this small monastery. The Lopon heard stories of me from people in the village, that I was a tulku from Lawudo near Thami. So the Lopon for his own benefit asked the oracle of the monastery if this was true".

The is the very same oracle of Domo Geshe's monastery who famously took trance of Dorje Shugden and Kache Marpo and Namka Barzin (both deities are also in Dorje Shugden's entourage and assists Dorje Shugden) whom the 14th Dalai Lama had met earlier and then proceeded to write the famous praise of Dorje Shugden called Melody Of Unceasing Vajra. In it the 14th Dalai Lama referred to Dorje Shugden as:

"...Miraculously powerful protector of Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings
Arisen as a lord of all wrathful worldly hosts
Come from the abodes of Tushita, Kechara, and so forth"


Who else would guard Manjushri and Tsongkhapa's teachings and come from Tushita, Kechara and so forth except a Buddha??? So Lama Zopa is saying the 14th Dalai Lama, Chenresiz himself messed up!

5. Let's set aside all these dharma stuff. I have seen pictures of Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa. There was so much love and care. Lama Zopa himself said that Lama Yeshe was like his own father and mother. So what happened? What happened to simple old gratitude and loyalty?

So why does Lama Zopa still keep a statue of his Guru Lama Yeshe and encourage others to revere Lama Yeshe and at the same time, denounce Lama yes he's trusted Protector? Only a few logical reasons:

1. Lama Zopa was forced by the CTA to do so. In fact, in  Lama Zopa's first comments about Dorje Shugden after the Dalai Lama's ban on the practice, Lama Zopa refused to outrightly denounce the deity and even said that he is not saying that Dorje Shugden is bad.

Lama Zopa in a answer to a question on Dorje Shugden wrote this:

"Recently, I also introduced a new guideline for the protection of the Dharma centers and their students, which is not to invite to the center teachers who do the protector practice and are therefore against His Holiness the Dalai Lama. However, this doesn’t include gurus who may have practiced the protector in the past. It doesn’t mean that they’re bad. I’m not saying that. If you have already made a Dharma connection with such teachers and you criticize them or give them up, that is totally incorrect; that is opposite to lam-rim practice. The lam-rim, sutra, and tantra teachings all explain how to practice guru devotion so that we can avoid creating such heavy negative karmas as criticizing our gurus. It’s for our benefit. Since we disciples want profit, not loss, since we aspire to achieve the highest profit, enlightenment, the complete qualities of cessation and realization, it is crucial to know how to practice guru devotion".

That the complete opposite of Lama Zopa's actions in supporting the 14th Dalai Lama to force practitioners to denounce their Dorje Shugden worshipping teachers regardless of whether they are still alive or not!

2. Lama Zopa is putting on a show for the Dalai Lama and Tibetan government not to get into trouble but are still quietly practicing Dorje Shugden. The Dalai Lama's government (The Central Tibetan Administration) is known to use heavy handed means to force people to stop, even violence and abusing legislative instruments to criminalise the practice.

3. Lama Zopa and FPMT simply sold out and chose to follow the Dalai Lama's political diktat instead of being loyal to Lama Yeshe and Lama Tsongkhapa.

In any case, the FPMT is very much part of the machinery that is eroding the the integrity of the dharma, the sanctity of Guru Devotion and the purity of Lama Tsongkhapa's lineage. You may say they had no choice but many other lamas like Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, Gonsar Rinpoche, Tsem Tulku Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche and many others chose to protect Tsongkhapa's foundation and the honour of their teacher with their lives.

Lama Zopa? Well he made what he thought was savvy business move. So, yup...hollow. Like a tree that has forfeited its roots. Lama Tsonghapa's lineage is 600 years old and is growing in spite of the Dalai Lama's attempts to tear it down. There are no 600 year old business that is still standing no matter how politically correct they were...except for the profession of 'soliciting' in the liberal sense of the word.

(https://biglovelamayeshe.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/pictureee.jpg)

(https://biglovelamayeshe.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/lama-zopa-rinpoche-and-lama-yeshe-1970-dorje-and-bell.jpg)

(https://lamazopa2018munich.com/wp-content/uploads/LamaZopa-LamaYeshe_1969_LYWA_small.jpg)
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Ringo Starr on October 10, 2018, 05:25:18 AM
Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?

This is a good question and some of Lama Zopa's advice pertaining to Dorje Shugden practice found here https://www.lamayeshe.com/advice/dorje-shugden] [url]https://www.lamayeshe.com/advice/dorje-shugden (http://[url) [/url] can perhaps answer this question.

Here are some pertinent quotes from Lama Zopa:

Once you have made a Dharma connection with the virtuous friend, your guru, you cannot give up this relationship unless the guru himself or herself says, “Don’t come,” or “Don’t regard me as your guru.”
By giving up Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, you have created heavy negative karma in this life.

According to guru devotion practice, no matter how many gurus you have, you should look at all of them as one being, one mind, and that is Dharmakaya. That view must come from the disciple’s side. You look at them as one mind in different bodies, acting in different ways, according to the karma of sentient beings and their ordinary mistaken minds.


Causing heresy and anger and giving up the virtuous friend is much worse than killing and waging wars. This is because the object is very powerful. One’s guru is the most powerful among all powerful objects, such as buddhas.

The karma from forsaking one’s guru is worse than the karma generated by Hitler and Mao Tse Tung. Mao Tse Tung caused harm to many holy beings, but they were not his gurus. In the world, someone who kills many millions of people can still achieve enlightenment in that same lifetime. But generating heresy toward the virtuous friend and giving up one’s devotion to the virtuous friend makes it difficult to achieve enlightenment, even if one practices tantra with much hardship. It will be like taking a rebirth in hell.
Therefore, what I am saying is this: In the world, actions such as killing and waging war have very bad repercussions and are terrible, but the karma from these actions is mild compared to heresy and giving up one’s guru.

You can see in the outline in the lam-rim, even if one commits the five heinous crimes—killing one’s father, killing one’s mother, drawing blood from a Buddha, causing schism in the Sangha, and killing an Arhant—one can still achieve enlightenment, but not based on mistaken devotion to the virtuous friend. If you read Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, or The Essential Nectar, particularly the lam-rim outline on guru devotion, you will understand.


Kopan Monastery had been performing the Dorje Shugden practice from the beginning, as this was Lama Yeshe’s main protector, on whom he relied whenever he needed help for anything. But since His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the one who holds, preserves, and spreads the entire Buddhist Dharma—both the lesser vehicle and the Mahayana, Paramitayana, and Secret Mantra Vajrayana—without the existence of His Holiness, not only Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism but Buddhism in general would suffer in the world. It would be similar to when children are left behind when their parents die. It would be like that.

Therefore, support for His Holiness becomes very important. Another thing is that His Holiness is the main source of world peace. In this aspect, His Holiness gives so much peace and happiness to so many millions and millions of people in this world. This aspect of His Holiness is the greatest inspiration, bringing many millions of people’s hearts toward Buddhism. Even though we have many high lamas, not everyone is able to manifest this particular aspect, even though from my side the virtuous friends are of the same essence.


Another side of the teaching is that it is mentioned that the protector is an Arya Bodhisattva, a manifestation of Manjushri. So, then, there is also the risk of our creating very heavy karma in that context.



Personally, at the ultimate level, I do not see Lama Zopa or FPMT people as having broken samaya or having any contradictions in their practices. Having lots of Lama Yeshe statues and perhaps not openly practicing Dorje Shugden can go hand in hand in fulfilling the requirements of guru devotion and the view that Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa and the Dalai Lama are indeed all Buddhas.

When Lama Osel takes over as spiritual advisor, he could perhaps manifest a different aspect with regards to this current issue.

My favorite quote:

"Even though we have many high lamas, not everyone is able to manifest this particular aspect, even though from my side the virtuous friends are of the same essence."

Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Ringo Starr on October 10, 2018, 06:11:42 AM
Having said the above, it would also be pertinent to remind that there are many "ordinary view" practitioners in FPMT and elsewhere who should ponder the questions posted by Thaimonk.

Being vehement and even violent against DS persons/organizations is not what Lama Zopa teaches. Don't ever think that he teachers that. In fact I would like to quote Lama Zopa once again on this issue:

"Another side of the teaching is that it is mentioned that the protector is an Arya Bodhisattva, a manifestation of Manjushri. So, then, there is also the risk of our creating very heavy karma in that context."

And there is a whole post you can read here about this:

https://newkadampatruth.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/letter-from-a-senior-fpmt-monk/ 

Letter from a senior FPMT monk
November 24, 2008

Below are some extracts from a letter written by Yeshe Sangye, a senior FPMT monk and close disciple of Lama Yeshe. The full letter can be found here. As he says himself at the end of his letter:

I hope all that read this would understand better.
That is my hope to write. As I have not said anything for over twenty years.

Why are we including his letter here? Because many times NKT-IKBU Centers and students have been at the receiving end of slander and disruption at the hands of FPMT Centers and students, ever since the Dalai Lama spoke out against Dorje Shugden and the FPMT decided to follow his lead. This is a fact, and it is backed up by Yeshe Sangye (below).

It is a serious matter to be involved in criticizing other Mahayana traditions (it’s a downfall of the Bodhisattva vows) and impeding the spreading of pure Buddhadharma is contributing to the suffering of others. This is a big world, big enough for NKT~IKBU and the FPMT and all other Buddhist traditions.  There are billions of suffering beings and these beings all have different karma.  While we rejoice in the FPMT’s work of spreading Buddha’s teachings, we do not rejoice in their political actions against the NKT because of following the Dalai Lama’s view.  Dharma mixed with politics is like delicious food mixed with poison – the only result will be suffering in the end.

As explained on the New Kadampa Truth website, FPMT members are regularly contributing to  Internet forums where they criticize the NKT and try to dissuade anyone reading their posts from attending NKT Centers.  The NKT has written to the FPMT asking them to desist from criticizing our tradition and specifically mentioning some individuals on the Geshe program (Tenzin Peljor); but nothing has improved. Quite apart from the fact that the FPMT de facto has an official policy of discrimination in place by not allowing Dorje Shugden practitioners to be teachers, to ordain in the FPMT tradition, or even to attend FPMT teachings, here are a few specific examples of the treatment the NKT has received from the FPMT:

FPMT Mexico has officially criticized NKT on their website.
One FPMT student claimed on an Amazon Buddhist discussion group that we are praying for the death of the Dalai Lama or FPMT Teachers such as Thubten Gonpo, one of our main critics.
A personal story from an NKT Teacher: “A student of mine who was heading for Foundation Programme spent the summer in Nepal.  He took one of the 10 day Lamrim courses at Kopan and told one of the nuns, a Swedish nun called Ven Karen, that he was from Kingston and went to the NKT Centre there.  He said she then spent a long time trying to convince him that we were a cult and that he should not go there.  She brought up things like we worship an evil spirit, we’re all about money etc. He came back disillusioned about our Centre and Buddhism in general. He wasn’t impressed with the FPMT that much, but her words stuck and after a couple of meetings with him, he left, taking with him our core students from the University.”
Another personal story from an NKT Teacher: “We had a student in Taiwan whose auntie became an FPMT nun and was banned from coming to our centre. His name is ***** and N**** is still in touch with him.”
A story of discrimination from France: “Around 2004 Vivre Autrement alternative health fair in Paris. We were denied a stand at this very popular annual event which attracts 1000s. I had applied under the name of Editions Tharpa, mainly to offer books etc. FPMT people turned the organizers against us, as they wanted to have a stand, and we were refused.”

According to one testimonial received from an NKT member in Boston:”We were constantly hearing feedback from General Program students about how they were told by the FPMTers that we who attended NKT centers were not Buddhists, we were a money making cult, we had no authority to teach, our ordinations were not real, Geshe Kelsang was an evil wizard leading us all into hell … you get the idea.”
These are just a few examples – we have many more examples of FPMT interference in the development of the NKT-IKBU, and this sad state of affairs is still continuing today.

Lama Yeshe of the FPMT was no spirit worshipper. His wish in establishing the FPMT was to spread Dharma in the West, a wish that the New Kadampa Tradition is fulfilling. There is no conflict between Lama Yeshe’s and Geshe Kelsang’s intentions, and they were close friends and peers who regularly engaged in Gelugpa spiritual practice together, including monthly Dorje Shugden pujas; so why is the FPMT attacking us? It can only be because FPMT members have become a political tool of the Dalai Lama’s to fulfill his wish to destroy this tradition. Is this any way to repay Lama Yeshe’s kindness?


(https://info-buddhism.com/bilder/TIN-Shugden/DSC_6412-2.jpg)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQt-3IlrvebhuujZyYO8FsWQ0vmvQAnIXSGWDpuY5f4mrq4nISZqA)

So please think before you act and this includes the Tibetan leadership in India.
Karma bites!
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: kris on October 10, 2018, 09:42:56 AM
Unfortunately, not many will ask logical questions that are posted by Thaimonk. Many when asked about such logical questions, and when they can't answer, they will just reply that "Dalai Lama said so", and just quickly change the conversation to another topic.

This is from their website: https://www.lamayeshe.com/advice/dorje-shugden (https://www.lamayeshe.com/advice/dorje-shugden)

Quote
Kopan Monastery had been performing the Dorje Shugden practice from the beginning, as this was Lama Yeshe’s main protector, on whom he relied whenever he needed help for anything. But since His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the one who holds, preserves, and spreads the entire Buddhist Dharma—both the lesser vehicle and the Mahayana, Paramitayana, and Secret Mantra Vajrayana—without the existence of His Holiness, not only Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism but Buddhism in general would suffer in the world. It would be similar to when children are left behind when their parents die. It would be like that.

So, it clearly said that, Kopan Monastery chose Dalai Lama's instruction over their founder Lama Yeshe's practice. It is really sad that Lama Zopa has denounced the practice even though the practice was given to him by his guru. May be he chose Dalai Lama for political reason? Or is it some other reasons?

Another things which anti-Shugden people always claimed was, if you practice Shugden, you will go to 3 lower realms. But then again and again, high lamas such as Zong Rinpoche etc all reincarnate back and they are recognized by HH Dalai Lama. What an irony. HHDL said practice Shugden will make you go to 3 lower realms, but the reincarnation that came back was recognized by HHDL himself.

See this interesting video about Kopan monks requesting Dorje Shugden Puja for Lama Zopa"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3a13Lsv_AE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3a13Lsv_AE)
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: thor on October 10, 2018, 11:15:41 AM
Thaimonk raised some excellent questions. I would be amazed if anyone from the FPMT attempts to answer them. Because by all principles of Tibetan Buddhism and Guru Devotion, what Lama Zopa and the FPMT are doing are wrong and bereft of logic.

Here are more questions for Lama Zopa and the FPMT:

1. Kopan Monastery was built with the blessings of Dorje Shugden and with sponsorship of Dorje Shugden practitioners. If FPMT are so obsessed with being clean, why don't they return the unclean sponsorship?

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/04/2c/89/042c8954fadc4a8ba47ed947ca8c5a8c.jpg)


2. Why does FPMT advise its students to recite Lama Osel's long life prayer? Since Lama Yeshe was a Shugden practitioner, he would have reincarnated in the lower realms. So why make long life prayers to a person who isn't the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe?

(https://imgur.com/a/ROBF6zi)


3. Why doesn't Lama Zopa denounce his own teacher? Why doesn't Lama Zopa publicly announce that Lama Yeshe made a mistake when it came to Dorje Shugden? Even the Dalai Lama has publicly said on multiple occasions that Trijang Rinpoche made a mistake. If Lama Zopa wants to pursue the politically correct path, why doesn't he dare do the same to his own teacher? By extension, why don't senior FPMT students condemn Lama Yeshe for making a mistake?

(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/9d/35/8f/9d358f0a17f1dfe57e40e85a1d54080d--lamas-the-picture.jpg)


4. Why did Lama Zopa barter away his root teacher for political correctness?
Why give up this precious connection....

(https://www.lamayeshe.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/12640_sl-4.jpg)

(http://sandraestivals.e-monsite.com/medias/album/lama-yeshe-et-zopa.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhXPAUMUEAUZSsc.jpg)

(http://teachingsfromtibet.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/38502_ng.jpg)


...for this???

(http://detongling.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/director_a.jpg)



Is it worth giving up your root teacher, your principles, your honor, your integrity, all for the sake of association with the Dalai Lama, political correctness and money? Is that what the Buddha taught? Was it all worth it?
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: DharmaSpace on October 10, 2018, 11:50:26 AM
I don't think anyone still at FPMT would want to answer these questions.

FPMT was founded by the charisma and practice of Lama Yeshe who remained a Dorje Shugden person till the end of his life. FPMT only like to police others, but they will not want to return all the properties and statues, stained by a demon or spirit

FPMT, has broken their samaya to Dorje Shugden it is a real shame, the very force of nature that brought FPMT to the pinnacle of its success and development, they have cut ties to Dorje Shugden. Their actions is quite similar to how the Sakyas have abandoned this practice.

The succession planning for FPMT is on everyone's mind, who will take over this Buddhist organisation?


 

Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: DharmaSpace on October 10, 2018, 11:55:40 AM
This I think was the same Dorje Shugden found at Kopan Monastery. 
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Aurore on October 10, 2018, 12:12:42 PM
I believe the answer is quite obvious. FMPT WILL HAVE NO LINEAGE and CREDIBILITY.

Aside from being selective on what fits their purpose and to be in the good books with the Dalai Lama, it's quite obvious FMPT feel the need to keep Lama Yeshe’s image, teachings, maintain his website, books, etc although he was a DS practitioner because they will have no lineage, and no founder.

Hence, it is so dangerous and ignorant to claim Dorje Shugden is a spirit because it’s destroys the blessings of the Gelug lineage, the transmission of pure teachings and practices from the lineage masters is broken. This is not a danger to Gelug lineage only, but a danger to Buddhism as a whole.

The truth is FPMT as an organisation is NOT valid even by not denouncing Lama Yeshe. This is why Lama Osel renounced FPMT for this reason alone. FMPT only has broken samaya.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dLt_lt_b9eA/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: christine V on October 10, 2018, 12:40:52 PM
Very True on these points. It make a lot of logic thinking!

If Dorje Shugden is a demon or hell being why did the FPMT believed in Lama Yeshe  who is the practitioner of Dorje Shugden himself!  I thought in Tibetan Buddhism, those who need to achieve higher practice the first thing they need to learn is Guru Devotion. Why did FPMT do not followed their founder and guru all the way? Why did they change because of Dalai Lama. Is Dalai Lama their guru? Or maybe to take care of their face, to look good is more important than Guru Devotion?

And now, why did they still keep the statues of Lama Yeshe in their prayer shrine. On the other hand, they are telling the whole world that their guru is wrong about Dorje Shugden, on the hand, they worshiped their guru and put him on Shrine. What dharma their trying to teach to the students now?
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Jushri on October 10, 2018, 04:03:47 PM
FPMT has to keep Lama Yeshe's statues on their shrine because they do not have a choice as Lama Yeshe is their founding father and removing all his image would make FPMT look ungrateful ie bad PR (Bad PR will mean less sponsorships). More importantly, for spiritual reasons, removing their Guru's image would mean that there is a break in their lineage blessings and they will lose their credibility.

Given that they STILL have Lama Yeshe's images on their altars, FPMT should not be so vocal in their anti-Dorje Shugden sentiments because everyone knows that Lama Yeshe was a well-known Shugden practitioner all his life and Lama Zopa himself used to practice Dorje Shugden. This shows what huge hypocrites they are - They venerate a Shugden Lama on their altar and yet they huge anti-Shugdenpas.

What is sad is how Lama Osel is unable to come back to fulfill his role in this lifetime since students of Lama Yeshe has broken their samaya as FPMT has stopped Dorje Shugden practice. It is sad that political and economic benefits have taken precedence over spiritual commitments.

Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Tenzin K on October 10, 2018, 04:07:09 PM
Lama Yeshe was the root guru of Lama Zopa and has taught him for what Lama Zopa has become now. How can Lama Yeshe be wrong just because he practices Dorje Shugden and Lama Zopa is right where he has learned so much from Lama Yeshe and just because Lama Zopa stop practicing Dorje Shudgen. It doesn’t make sense. In this case how can people choose over Lama Zopa who breaking his samaya with his Guru? If one can say his Guru is wrong the isn’t that also mean that the entire lineage is wrong because we receive the lineage teaching from our Guru? So what lineage does FPMT follow now? Where is the blessing coming from?

Looking at Lama Osel returning back and being recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama is really a great slap to the ban of Dorje Shugden. It does prove that practicing Dorje Shugden doesn’t not make one to take rebirth in hell. But a very obvious scenario we can see here is that Lama Yeshe with his pure devotion and faith in his practice he took rebirth in human realms with his attainment but due to the broken samaya of his students with him, it doesn’t help Lama Osel to continue his work in this life effectively.

Being in the good book of Dalai Lama by choosing to break the samaya with their own Guru will not make any good for FPMT. FPMT huge negative stance against Dorje Shugden directly send the message to the people that their founder is at wrong and how would the organization be right where the founder is the one teaches the students? 

FPMT need to clear this contradiction to the world for their stance. Their founder Lama Yeshe is a Dorje Shugden practitioners but FPMT going against Dorje Shugden practice and practitioners but why still worship and continue the practice that been passing down by Lama Yeshe? If practicing Dorje Shugden is evil that would mean that all Lama Yeshe’s practices is evil and wrong then why FPMT still continue with Dorje Shugden lama’s teaching?
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Gabby Potter on October 10, 2018, 04:16:57 PM
The contradiction on this is very obvious, if practising Dorje Shugden brings one to the three lower realms, why did they even bother to recognise Lama Osel as the incarnation of Lama Yeshe? Why do FPMT and Lama Zopa still promote Lama Yeshe's teachings? Why are they still promoting a person who has 'broken' his vows?

The Dalai Lama says that by practising Dorje Shugden, it causes one to take rebirth in the three lower realms; On the contrary, he himself is seen endorsing Lama Osel and recognising him as the incarnation of Lama Yeshe. Hello??? Doesn't this sound or look weird to anyone? So what is it now? Does practising Dorje Shugden actually break one's vows and send them to the three lower realms? Cause certainly it didn't send Lama Yeshe to the three lower realms.

Due to the broken samaya between FPMT and Lama Yeshe, they didn't have the merits to sustain their own lama and thus we see Lama Osel as the person he is today. Some people may think that he's not the real deal and some may believe that it's some sort of manifestation, but the bottomline is that FMPT made a huge and terrible mistake by abandoning and going against their own Guru's practice.  :-\
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: fruven on October 10, 2018, 04:23:51 PM
It is very dishonest to lie to people who wish to involve their spirituality in FPMT centers by not letting others know what they are getting into.

Lama Yeshe never gave up Dorje Shugden practice. However Lama Yeshe is still one of the Dorje Shugden lineage gurus in FPMT. FPMT claimed they are clean from anything to do with Dorje Shugden. Why continue to pray and ask for blessings from Dorje Shugden lamas? It doesn't make sense to me.

Clearly they are taking advantage of kindness of Dorje Shugden lineage masters while condemning the Dorje Shugden practice at the same time. What happened to all those years of receiving teachings and practices from Lama Yeshe? This seems contradictory but it is happening now where the FPMT is getting away with hiding this information.

I guess they're in for the reputation. If FPMT did truly follow Lama Yeshe they wouldn't have condemn Dorje Shugden. They don't need to condemn Dorje Shugden if their goal is spirituality.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: pemachen on October 10, 2018, 07:49:04 PM
Personally, at the ultimate level, I do not see Lama Zopa or FPMT people as having broken samaya or having any contradictions in their practices. Having lots of Lama Yeshe statues and perhaps not openly practicing Dorje Shugden can go hand in hand in fulfilling the requirements of guru devotion and the view that Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa and the Dalai Lama are indeed all Buddhas.

When Lama Osel takes over as spiritual advisor, he could perhaps manifest a different aspect with regards to this current issue.

My favorite quote:

"Even though we have many high lamas, not everyone is able to manifest this particular aspect, even though from my side the virtuous friends are of the same essence."


You have a point there Ringo. After all, Tenzin Ösel Hita is only 33 this year, I believe he has a long way to go. There is a chance for them to stop criticizing and banning Dorje Shugden practitioners/teachers from teaching at their centres in the future, although I'm not sure if FPMT will practice Dorje Shugden again. His Holiness the Dalai Lama seems to have stop the hostility against Dorje Shugden, manifesting a bit more 'tolerance' with Dorje Shugden practice and practitioners nowadays.

Tenzin Ösel Hita gave talks about eleven European FPMT centers and one Brazilian center last year alone, so definitely he is not abandoning FPMT or leaving the scene anytime soon despite FPMT's broken samaya.

(https://www.fpmt.dk/wp-content/uploads/b1fb5f1345.jpeg)
Tenzin Ösel Hita giving a talk at Centro Shiwa Lha, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2017
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: mindyful on October 10, 2018, 08:23:17 PM
Lama Zopa believe and mentioned before that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Dechen Nyingpo are Buddha. Both of them have strong faith and practice Dorje Shugden in previous life. Now, they have returned in perfect human body form and continue to spread dharma for the benefit of others. Same as Lama Yeshe, he was also practiced Dorje Shugden and now return as Lama Osel and has been recognized by HH Dalai Lama. This clearly stated that great masters are definitely won’t reborn in the Three Lower Realms due to their Shugden practice.

Quote
Since Lama Yeshe worshipped Dorje Shugden, that means all teachings, lineages, oral transmissions, initiations passed from Lama Yeshe to Lama Zopa and many disciples are corrupted. So since all that is from Lama Yeshe is corrupted, why keep a statue of him on the shrine? Why worship corruption?


Totally agree with thaimonk, WHY FPMT worship corruption and keep maintain the website www.lamayeshe.com? (http://www.lamayeshe.com?) Is their purpose is mainly for reputation and wealth? This is really hypocritical.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Joo Won on October 10, 2018, 08:45:27 PM
Thaimonk has brought up some important questions. To say Dorje Shugden is a spirit and all lamas who practice Dorje Shugden are going to Three Lower Realms is very dangerous and hypocritical at the same time.

This is not only apply to FPMT, but all the dharma centres and even individuals who claim that those who are practising Dorje Shugden will be going to hell. For Lama Zopa Rinpoche to abandon Dorje Shugden practice passed down by his guru and the founder of FPMT Lama Yeshe, he is actually abandon his guru, throw his samaya, all the other teachings, practices or initiations from his Lama Yeshe to the drain. There's no such rules that student can choose to practice 99 practices passed down by the guru and gives up 1 practice (whether Dorje Shugden or any other practices) by your guru; and you are still consider holding your samaya well and intact.

Furthermore, all the teachings, initiations and practices passed down by Lama Yeshe will be not valid, and there will be no blessings for those who receive it, since you have denounce your guru, your lineage - the very source of all the blessings come from. Since the source has been polluted, then the down stream (all the teachings, initiations or practices being passed down), will be polluted and not pure as well. How come total 100 practices passed down by a demon worshiper, would be the other 99 teachings will be PURE and VALID, but only the one - Dorje Shugden is POLLUTED? Illogical. How can you separate the CLEAN water then the POLLUTED water from the whole stream of water from the ocean of your guru's teachings, and pick the CLEAN ones to pass down, abandon the POLLUTED one?

Not only that, after breaking the samaya, abandoning one's guru, FMPT centres around the world go out to attack centres which practice Dorje Shugden and create troubles for those centres. It's wrong to attack other dharma centres even they're not from the same lineage, and it's even worse when you attack with political motivation in heart - to woo members from these centres, to attract more funds and support from HHDL...

I do believe Lama Zopa Rinpoche is a real practitioner, he must have some reasons he does not want to tell to denounce Dorje Shugden practice passed down by his guru Lama Yeshe. FMPT and Lama Zopa's students should see through this and stop immediately to attack any dharma centre which practice Dorje Shugden; and explain the logic behind abandoning Dorje Shugden practice is abandoning Lama Yeshe, reviving the practice is repairing the samaya with Lama Yeshe the founder, and getting life to the empty and invalid FPMT. It's still not too late to do so. May be Lama Osel will be coming back to FPMT and teaches intensively, and fulfilling his deeds as his previous incarnation did.


Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Alex on October 10, 2018, 11:08:28 PM
It is very dishonest to lie to people who wish to involve their spirituality in FPMT centers by not letting others know what they are getting into.

Lama Yeshe never gave up Dorje Shugden practice. However, Lama Yeshe is still one of the Dorje Shugden lineage gurus in FPMT. FPMT claimed they are clean from anything to do with Dorje Shugden. Why continue to pray and ask for blessings from Dorje Shugden lamas? It doesn't make sense to me.

Clearly, they are taking advantage of the kindness of Dorje Shugden lineage masters while condemning the Dorje Shugden practice at the same time. What happened to all those years of receiving teachings and practices from Lama Yeshe? This seems contradictory but it is happening now where the FPMT is getting away with hiding this information.

I guess they're in for the reputation. If FPMT did truly follow Lama Yeshe they wouldn't have condemned Dorje Shugden. They don't need to condemn Dorje Shugden if their goal is spirituality.

It is also dishonest for them to get more followers because since they had rejected a part of their Guru's practice, they had broken their samaya with their Guru. The blessing of the lineage is not there. Their spiritual activity in FPMT will not bear fruit because of the broken samaya. This is stated in the 50 stanzas of Guru devotion. No attainment will arise if your samaya with your Guru is broken. Hence, FPMT members can practice whatever they want, but they will not get any results.

There is no point for them to make a Lama Yeshe statue and put him on the altar. It is hypocrisy because they do not accept their Guru as he is. They choose to be politically correct by siding His Holiness the Dalai Lama to gain more benefit and invalidate the teachings that Lama Yeshe had given. There will be no blessing or whatsoever no matter what they offer the statue.

They have to keep Lama Yeshe's statue, teachings, and books because it is their lineage. If there is no Lama Yeshe, there will be no FPMT. However, they turned a blind eye on Lama Yeshe's identity as a Dorje Shugden practitioners and took what they need which is his image, teachings, and name. This is how they USE their lama even after their lama had passed away.

Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: dsnowlion on October 11, 2018, 02:12:01 AM
Thaimonk raised some excellent questions. I would be amazed if anyone from the FPMT attempts to answer them. Because by all principles of Tibetan Buddhism and Guru Devotion, what Lama Zopa and the FPMT are doing are wrong and bereft of logic.

Here are more questions for Lama Zopa and the FPMT:

1. Kopan Monastery was built with the blessings of Dorje Shugden and with sponsorship of Dorje Shugden practitioners. If FPMT are so obsessed with being clean, why don't they return the unclean sponsorship?

([url]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/04/2c/89/042c8954fadc4a8ba47ed947ca8c5a8c.jpg[/url])


2. Why does FPMT advise its students to recite Lama Osel's long life prayer? Since Lama Yeshe was a Shugden practitioner, he would have reincarnated in the lower realms. So why make long life prayers to a person who isn't the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe?

([url]https://imgur.com/a/ROBF6zi[/url])


3. Why doesn't Lama Zopa denounce his own teacher? Why doesn't Lama Zopa publicly announce that Lama Yeshe made a mistake when it came to Dorje Shugden? Even the Dalai Lama has publicly said on multiple occasions that Trijang Rinpoche made a mistake. If Lama Zopa wants to pursue the politically correct path, why doesn't he dare do the same to his own teacher? By extension, why don't senior FPMT students condemn Lama Yeshe for making a mistake?

([url]https://i.pinimg.com/236x/9d/35/8f/9d358f0a17f1dfe57e40e85a1d54080d--lamas-the-picture.jpg[/url])


4. Why did Lama Zopa barter away his root teacher for political correctness?
Why give up this precious connection....

([url]https://www.lamayeshe.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/12640_sl-4.jpg[/url])

([url]http://sandraestivals.e-monsite.com/medias/album/lama-yeshe-et-zopa.jpg[/url])

([url]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhXPAUMUEAUZSsc.jpg[/url])

([url]http://teachingsfromtibet.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/38502_ng.jpg[/url])


...for this???

([url]http://detongling.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/director_a.jpg[/url])



Is it worth giving up your root teacher, your principles, your honor, your integrity, all for the sake of association with the Dalai Lama, political correctness and money? Is that what the Buddha taught? Was it all worth it?


These are also VERY GOOD QUESTIONS raised by Thor. Thank you Thor.

Yes I would also really like to know from FPMT members seriously WHY did they trade over their own Guru, the founder of FPMT over for the sake of looking politically correct, good and clean? Is really sponsorship and fame more important?

Look at Osel Hita now? He is now a Lama, not teaching, and nowhere. How did the legendary great Lama Yeshe become just another samsaric layman who is heading nowhere? And if FPMT was really honest and truthful, they would not even acknowledge this incarnation of Lama Yeshe, because by right Lama Yeshe should be in hell because he NEVER GAVE UP DORJE SHUGDEN!

Will senior fpmt members care to shed some light? I wonder...
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Geraldine Sarie on October 11, 2018, 06:59:27 AM
If Dorje Shugden is a demon or spirit, how come there were many incarnations of high lamas? Since he was a spirits, strong wraftful pujas can perform to subdue him. Why not any monasteries are doing so? The Dalai Lama said practicing Dorje Shugden will get rebirth in three lower realms. Surprisingly, how come those got rebirth and came back as human? Aren’t they are supposed to be rebirth as animals, ghosts, spirit or in hell according to the three lower realms categories. Is this logical?
I think FPMT is corrupted like CTA therefore create commotion on other organization to gain fame and power. This is truly sad, FPMT has break samaya with their Guru, Lama Yeshe who was faithfully devoted to Dorje Shugden.  :'(
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: samayakeeper on October 11, 2018, 12:17:20 PM
What Thaimonk opines here is logical and relevant.

FPMT act as if they are the police of the Dalai Lama to crack down on people and dharma institutions who want to stick to their Dorje Shugden practice. Since they are so gung-ho about this then they should look at within themselves and their own dharma centers.

I do not think Dorje Shugden is wrong in recognising Lama Osel. I think the Dalai Lama is wrong about everything he said about Dorje Shugden. Thus said, whoever Dorje Shugden recognises is real, including Lama Zopa.

I am not concerned what others including the Dalai Lama say negatively about Dorje Shugden because humans always condemn one other. Why condemn others on their religion, skin color, gender? What is important is love, happiness, compassion, kindness, harmony, patience, and all good qualities should prevail. Live and let live.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: bambi on October 11, 2018, 03:15:30 PM
Absolutely good points & answers from thaimonk!Its always contradicting when it comes to Dorje Shugden and high Lamas who practice Him reincarnate.Dalai Lama & CTA always say that those who practice Dorje Shugden will go to hell then how come so many Lamas reincarnate & recognized again?It is confusing & ridiculous.On one hand Dalai Lama condemn Dorje Shugden & practitioners. On the other hand Dalai Lama recognized Lamas who practice Dorje Shugden in previous lives & reincarnate.What does Dalai Lama trying to show the world.This is one reason why I absolutely do not believe Dorje Shugden ban is logical.Very unfair for those who believe & practice.Then what about lineage.I receive my practice from my precious Lama.And he receive from his precious Lama Trijang Rinpoche also practice Dorje Shugden and recognized.Same as Dalai Lama also receive from Trijang Rinpoche so if Dalai Lama day is wrong then where do we get blessings & attainments.Then why we bother practicing Buddhism if we can’t get blessing & attainment.Still does not make sense for me.More people must read understand so many wrong information from Dalai Lama & Cta.All false information.Very misleading.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/what-happens-to-dorje-shugden-lamas/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/what-happens-to-dorje-shugden-lamas/)

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Ling-enthrone3.jpg)

Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Brian Little on October 11, 2018, 04:31:43 PM
Opinions on the whole Shugden issue has always been contradicting isn't it? With this latest issue, i hope it is creating more doubts among those haters of Dorje Shugden and make them realise the reasoning behind demonizing Dorje Shugden has always been contradicting. Time to really think and analyse all the claims against Dorje Shugden and revive this sacred practice in Tibetan Buddhism.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: kikyoenrique on October 11, 2018, 04:49:47 PM
The statement that mentioned, practicing Dorje Shugden will be borne in Hell is absolutely false.
There are so many evidences that have shown, the previous highly attained Lamas has reincarnated and they were recognized by His Holiness 14th Dalai Lama as follows:-
 
a)6th Yongzin Ling Rinpoche aka Hi Holiness Kyabje Ling Rinpoche (Previous),  The 7th Kyabje Yongzin Ling Choktrul Rinpoche (Current)
b)His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche (Previous), Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche (Current)
c)His Holiness Kyabje Zong Rinpoche (Previous), 4th Zong Rinpoche Tenzin Wangdak (Current)

There are more in the photos









Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Belinda Mae on October 11, 2018, 05:10:42 PM
Good questions raised by thaimonk. Why follow what other people say blindly? We should check it out for ourselves who and what is right or wrong. No one should make the decisions for us what we should or should not practice.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: kikyoenrique on October 11, 2018, 05:16:21 PM
Look at the photo HH Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Lama Yeshe. Such a happy moment and they are close to each other.  They are Dorje Shugden practitioner. 
However, with the ban of Dorje Shugden practice, all these has created disharmony, segregation, suffering of physically and mentally.

Dorje Shugden is definitely not harming and it has been practiced by His Holiness 14 Dalai Lama (HHDL) teachers ie HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, HH Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and etc So what harming does it cause?
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on October 11, 2018, 05:17:26 PM
Could Lama Zopa be doing all this to keep Lama Yeshe and his Dorje Shugden practice alive in a "Secret Manner".

On one hand condemning Dorje Shugden while on the other hand creating statues of Lama Yeshe a great public teacher of Dorje Shugden.

There may to more to all this than meets the eye.

Just a possible theory.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Alex on October 11, 2018, 05:46:16 PM
Look at the photo HH Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Lama Yeshe. Such a happy moment and they are close to each other.  They are Dorje Shugden practitioner. 
However, with the ban of Dorje Shugden practice, all these has created disharmony, segregation, suffering of physically and mentally.

Dorje Shugden is definitely not harming and it has been practiced by His Holiness 14 Dalai Lama (HHDL) teachers ie HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, HH Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and etc So what harming does it cause?

Before the Dorje Shugden ban, there is no problem in the Buddhist community. All lamas get along and all monasteries get along. Since the ban has been implemented by Dalai Lama, the Buddhist community has been reluctantly divided into 2. There is so much of disharmony and discrimination between the 2. All of this can be avoid if only the public would investigate a little further into the ban and they will find the ban is illogical and makes no sense.

Because of the ban, FPMT being one of the biggest Buddhist group in the west have to decide between His Holiness the Dalai Lama and their Guru, Lama Yeshe. Sadly, they chose to abandon the practice and hence abandoning their Guru, Lama Yeshe. The lineage is broken, the blessing is gone. Now they are trying to fool themselves by making statues of Lama Yeshe and pretend that they never chose to be politically correct over their Guru. However, what's done is done. Lama Osel who is the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe is now choosing secular life instead of a spiritual life is a big indication that FPMT does not have the merits for the current incarnation of their Guru to pick up his work and continue where he had left off in his past life.

All of this just to be politically correct. Is it worth it to lose a Guru's blessing? A lineage is gone because of this. Whatever activities that they do now at their centre will not produce any results and attainments will not arise from it. FPMT should wake up and amend their mistakes to mend their samaya before Lama Osel manifest further signs of leaving.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19702122 (https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19702122)
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on October 11, 2018, 06:30:07 PM
Has Lama Osel publicly condemned Dorje Shugden or Lama Yeshe's practice of Dorje Shugden??
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: RichardTam on October 11, 2018, 06:49:31 PM
If practicing Dorje Shugden is wrong, then the whole lineage of Gelug is wrong. If Dorje Shugden is evil spirit, then the whole lineage is practicing evil spirit, including Dalai Lama. Nowadays Dalai Lama suddenly come out a statement that he doesn't need to responsible at. For example, he said Buddha was not born in Nepal. He thinks people said that Buddha was born in Nepal was nonsense. Dalai Lama said there's no discrimination and chaos about anti Dorje Shugden supporter, he thinks that was rumours. It seems, he simply say something out of what he thinks is right. As an emanation of Chenrezig, I'm sure that he knows the consequences of saying such things, for example saying that Dorje Shugden is evil spirit. I'm sure he knows how great is the impact to Dorje Shugden practitioners, especially to Gelug lineage. How people look at Tibetan Buddhism now? Yet, he said it out. Nobody knows why, but people around him, blindly follow, deafly listen to what he said, and created all these discrimination and segregation. As an emanation of Chenrezig, I'm sure he doesn't have any karma by saying so, but people around him who blindly follow, for sure will get very heavy bad karma. Yet, people think that whatever Dalai Lama said is correct. Because he is the "king" of Tibetan Buddhism. They thought so. But, I think Dalai Lama is wrong. If one Guru was wrong about practicing Dorje Shugden, it couldn't be all the Guru also wrong. If practicing Dorje Shugden is wrong, then what does Gelug still exist? If Gelug doesn't exist anymnore because of practicing Dorje Shugden, then I think should Dalai Lama exist also.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on October 11, 2018, 07:08:37 PM
Has Lama Osel publicly condemned Dorje Shugden or Lama Yeshe's practice of Dorje Shugden??

If Lama Osel has not condemned either Dorje Shugden or Lama Yeshe why not??

You would think he would.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on October 11, 2018, 07:30:35 PM
Could Lama Zopa be doing all this to keep Lama Yeshe and his Dorje Shugden practice alive in a "Secret Manner".

On one hand condemning Dorje Shugden while on the other hand creating statues of Lama Yeshe a great public teacher of Dorje Shugden.

There may to more to all this than meets the eye.

Just a possible theory.
Has Lama Osel publicly condemned Dorje Shugden or Lama Yeshe's practice of Dorje Shugden??

If Lama Osel has not condemned either Dorje Shugden or Lama Yeshe why not??

You would think he would.

Has Lama Zopa ever stated publicly that Lama Osel condemns both Dorje Shugden and Lama Yeshe for practicing Dorje Shugden?

If not why not?

It would only make sense that he would have Lama Osel condemn them both.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: DharmaSpace on October 11, 2018, 07:49:16 PM
It does not make any good sense for FPMT to keep statues of their founder, and they do not agree with what he practices or what their founder represented, a good solid practitioner of Dorje Shugden, faultless and loyal towards Dorje Shugden.

There are also pictures of Lama Zopa doing practices towards Trijang Rinpoche's stupa, of course Trijang Rinpoche is compassionate and forgives all who break samaya with him and Dorje Shugden. But why on one hand ban Dorje Shugden and on the other hand do puja at Trijang Rinpoche stupa who was a great Dorje Shugden lama who proliferated the teaching to thousands. isn't that somewhat hypocritical?



Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on October 11, 2018, 08:09:31 PM


Could Lama Zopa be doing all this to keep Lama Yeshe and his Dorje Shugden practice alive in a "Secret Manner".

On one hand condemning Dorje Shugden while on the other hand creating statues of Lama Yeshe a great public teacher of Dorje Shugden.

There may to more to all this than meets the eye.

Just a possible theory.
Has Lama Osel publicly condemned Dorje Shugden or Lama Yeshe's practice of Dorje Shugden??


If Lama Osel has not condemned either Dorje Shugden or Lama Yeshe why not??

You would think he would.

Has Lama Zopa ever stated publicly that Lama Osel condemns both Dorje Shugden and Lama Yeshe for practicing Dorje Shugden?

If not why not?

It would only make sense that he would have Lama Osel condemn them both.




Here is a link to an article on this forum about Lama Zopa giving money to the CTA.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6198.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6198.0)

Could Lama Zopa be paying the CTA "Blackmail" money to stop the CTA from demanding that Lama Osel publicly condemn Lama Yeshe for his Dorje Shugden practice?

Is this why the FPMT is allowed to have statues of Lama Yeshe???

Just a theory.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Vajra10 on October 12, 2018, 12:51:21 AM
To examine if a person is good or bad, the only way is to observe how oneself is behaving, his/ her daily activities & motivation of doing them.

We can't examine & judge people by what they practice in term of religion. In fact, people who really practicing in the dark side is always close, private, & we can sense the evilness by our sensory abilities, some of us will uncomfortable & fear.

Many pure lamas who hold their vows strongly, who are still practicing Dorje Shugden are good & they are open to public. I don't feel fear when I meet them, they care for their students & others who come to them for assistance.

Who in the hell will help people? For good..
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: dsnowlion on October 12, 2018, 02:04:43 AM


Could Lama Zopa be doing all this to keep Lama Yeshe and his Dorje Shugden practice alive in a "Secret Manner".

On one hand condemning Dorje Shugden while on the other hand creating statues of Lama Yeshe a great public teacher of Dorje Shugden.

There may to more to all this than meets the eye.

Just a possible theory.
Has Lama Osel publicly condemned Dorje Shugden or Lama Yeshe's practice of Dorje Shugden??


If Lama Osel has not condemned either Dorje Shugden or Lama Yeshe why not??

You would think he would.

Has Lama Zopa ever stated publicly that Lama Osel condemns both Dorje Shugden and Lama Yeshe for practicing Dorje Shugden?

If not why not?

It would only make sense that he would have Lama Osel condemn them both.




Here is a link to an article on this forum about Lama Zopa giving money to the CTA.

[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6198.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6198.0[/url])

Could Lama Zopa be paying the CTA "Blackmail" money to stop the CTA from demanding that Lama Osel publicly condemn Lama Yeshe for his Dorje Shugden practice?

Is this why the FPMT is allowed to have statues of Lama Yeshe???

Just a theory.


No I do not think that FPMT is paying CTA "Blackmail" money to stop the CTA from demanding that Lama Osel publicly condemn Lama Yeshe for his Dorje Shugden practice but rather to be on their good books, to be seen close to the Dalai Lama to gain more sponsorships. Not so much blackmail CTA or pay them to shut up becuase they have voluntarily already used poor Lama Zopa to denounce Shugden practice.

But I do think that the reasons why Lama Zopa is still worshipping Lama Yeshe who was a strong Shugden Lama is a clear indication of his devotion to Lama Yeshe and that it is possible, secretly Lama Zopa still practices Dorje Shugden.

Hence, Lama Zopa's statement of warning in one of his speeches about Dorje Shugden; "Another side of the teaching is that it is mentioned that the protector (Dorje Shugden) is an Arya Bodhisattva, a manifestation of Manjushri. So, then, there is also the risk of our creating very heavy karma in that context.".

This statement by Lama Zopa is Dharmic and says a lot about him and his stance.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Rowntree on October 12, 2018, 03:57:02 AM
The basis of enlightenment based on the 50 verses of Guru Devotion by Ashvagosha (the Indian poet known by many names, such as Aryashura, Matriceta, Patriceta, Matichitra, and Bhavideva) is guru devotion. This is the core practice of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism as the guru is the guide to our enlightenment. Therefore, going against one’s guru will invite many negative karmas that obstruct us from enlightenment.

Breaching the guru devotion does not mean that one physically harms the teacher. A breach of guru devotion happens when one proclaims that I do not practice Dorje Shugden although my guru practices it. For a real and genuine student, having guru devotion mean she follows in the guru's footsteps and never let the mind slipped even a moment to give rise to negative view the doubt the guru's advice and practice. This means that one should not have any negative view of the guru's actions and give rise to not even a single negative view. It is sufficient to say that the moment a negative view arises, one is considered to have breached her guru devotion.

Lama Yeshe (the founder of the FPMT) is a close student of His Holiness Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. Both of them are firm practitioners of Dorje Shugden to the end of their lives. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche went to the hospital just before Lama Yeshe passed away to perform the last rites and prayers for him. Lama Yeshe's mind was lucid, alert and full of devotion for Kyabje Zong Rinpoche although he was paralyzed physically. (Lama Zopa also experienced a stroke. I wonder if this is the form of sickness run in the spiritual guide of the FPMT.) It is very much demonstrated in the picture taken below. It is clear that Lama Yeshe did not lose any control of his powerful mind.

Lama Yeshe was the first person who has invited His Holiness Kyabje Zong Rinpoche to the west and to his centres. He has praised Kyabje Zong Rinpoche as a highly attained mater who is without any mistakes or faults. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche has transmitted so many teachings to Lama Yeshe. When Lama Yeshe was in Sera Jey Monastic College in Lhasa, he has received the highest tantric initiations, teachings and discourses from esteemed Dorje Shugden lamas such as the Dalai Lama's tutors H.H. Kyabje Ling Rinpoche and H.H. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, and Geshe Rabten Rinpoche. He was also ordained as a fully ordained monk by H.H. Kyabje Ling Rinpoche.

The higher tantric initiations Lama Yeshe received were Heruka, Vajrabhairava and Guhyasamaja, while the teachings conferred onto him are the Lam-Rim from Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, instructions on Prajnaparamita, Madhyamika, the Six Yogas of Naropa and Shantideva’s Guide to the Bodhisattva’s Way of Life amongst others.

Lama Yeshe was known to have relied on Dorje Shugden strongly for the growth of the FPMT. He often attributed his success to the blessings of his teachers and his Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden. According to Lama Zopa, Lama Yeshe would always begin each course at Kopan Monastery with a Dorje Shugden kangsol and request for his assistance for all his dharma activities through the FPMT.

When Kyabje Zong Rinpoche was invited to the FPMT, Lama Yeshe’s students were all blessed with the authentic and pure teachings, initiations, oral transmissions and protection from Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. He is an enormously perfect master who was a master of the highest calibre of the Sutra and Tantra. A seasoned teacher of teachers so rare to be found.

Lama Zopa and the FPMT students should be just like Lama Yeshe and follow the teachings of H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche’s lineage or Lama Yeshe perfectly without a doubt. They should be devoted to Lama Yeshe just like how Lama Yeshe was devoted to Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. This is the real meaning of having Lama Yeshe's statue in the FPMT centre.

Obviously, most people do not understand what it means to have guru devotion these days. So they choose to listen to teachers who have big names, such as His Holiness the Dalai Lama. If the advice comes from a  qualified guru who can pass on an authentic oral transmission who has a low-profile, nobody cares because he is not famous.

One should not follow a guru just because of their high ranks or famous. A famous guru's advice should never override the advice from one's personal lama, for example, Lama Yeshe's advice should not be overridden by the advice of the Dalai Lama for all FPMT students. Lama Zopa should know this very well. Instead of encouraging the FPMT students to follow Lama Yeshe, he is now asking the FPMT students to follow the Dalai Lama. Therefore, Lama Zopa has breached his guru devotion posthumously following the death of Lama Yeshe. Why should the FPMT offer the Lama Yeshe's statue in their centre then?

Lama Zopa (who is recognised by Dorje Shugden himself) and the FPMT students should not abandon the Dorje Shugden practice even if the famous Dalai Lama tells them to. They should not listen to any guru because they are famous or for any other reason. In order for many spiritual attainments to grow, everyone in the FPMT should follow Lama Yeshe's teachings sincerely from their heart. They should keep their samaya with Lama Yeshe clean and never to breach it. They should be grateful for the teachings he compassionately practices and attained and should never entertain, spread or contemplate negative thoughts on Lama Yeshe's Dorje Shugden practice. Pursuing gurus with fame and big names cannot save them at the time of death, only the close guru can because when death arrives, fame cannot do anything at all.

One should never go against one’s guru and keep that relationship and samaya very clean at all costs. Always respect one’s guru no matter what happens strongly and firmly. Only by following through the teachings one's guru has compassionately taught unconditionally with gratefulness, then only can the mind be transformed. This is the essence of Tsongkapa’s unerring path and the only cause for one to gain higher attainments. The is the true meaning behind keeping Lama Yeshe's statue in FPMT and venerate it.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Namgyal G on October 12, 2018, 06:56:45 AM
The whole issue of this is just extremely contradictory,  doesn’t make sense at all. Condemning and disagreeing the DS practise Lama Yeshe did yet still keep the statue of Lama Yeshe and pay  homage to Him, what kind of messages FPMT want to send to others? Like what previously has mentioned by others, the current incarnation of Lama Yeshe - Lama Osel is unable to proliferate Dharma far wide like what he did in his previous life, shows clearly not only about guru-student samaya must be kept clean, but also it is a fact that how the ignorance and wrong views of people can directly stop the dharma to grow. CTA has a big part to play on this.

FPMT mission statement “based on the Buddhist tradition of Lama Tsongkhapa of Tibet as taught to us by our founder, Lama Thubten Yeshe and our spiritual director, Lama Thubten Zopa Rinpoche” - why FPMT chose Dalai Lama over their founder? There is no FPMT without Lama Yeshe, obviously. What role does Dalai Lama play here in FPMT? Just because he is the head of Tibetan Buddhism? But guru devotion is not about who is the head nor based on any political reasons, Lama Zopa should know this very well, isn’t it? Anyone who has sense should understand this policy of banning Dorje Shugden is very wrong, Buddhism is so tainted due to people’s wrong views.

Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Fan Jing Jing on October 12, 2018, 07:01:56 AM
Agreed with you bambi. It’s very sad to see people claimed themselves as Buddhists but they did everything so not Buddhists. They followed blindly even though they knew this is not logic at all. Even thoug they doubt but they still follow. So since Lama Yeshe was one of the DS practitioners, he should take rebirth in hell according to His Holiness. But then Lama Oser was recognised by His Holiness himself as reincarnation of Lama Yeshe. Well, hokay.. DS practioners not going to Hell.. we rejoice!! And he’s being enthroned as a Tulku some more! Waahhhh.. then let me think ????. Isn’t His Holiness Dalai Lama showed the world that Dorje Shugden is not an evil? He showed the world that it’s ok to practise Dorje Shugden, he showed the world that practice Dorje Shugden can achieve buddhahood! Then why ban Dorje Shugden!? Isn’t Dorje Shugden is a practice that everyone should count on for spiritual path. So many Dorje Shugden Lamas came back as Tulkus!

For those who still think Dorje Shugden is bad, is like believing the fish cannot swim!

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/what-happens-to-dorje-shugden-lamas/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/what-happens-to-dorje-shugden-lamas/)

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Ling-enthrone3.jpg)
[/quote]
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Dondrup Shugden on October 12, 2018, 03:32:07 PM
Reading all the comments and viewing the photos, I really like the one of Lama Yeshe with his Guru, Zong Rinpoche during his last days before Lama Yeshe entered clear light.  The trusting and loving way which Lama Yeshe expressed himself with his Guru was a true picture of Guru devotion.  As such it is without doubt that Lama Yeshe was a Dorje Shugden Lama, as Zong Rinpoche had been.

It is therefore a very good question to ask FPMT specifically Lama Zopa who denies that FPMT worship Dorje Shugden and yet has the photo of Lama Yeshe on FPMT altars and temples. 

I fear to think that this denial by FPMT is a break of their samaya with their founding Guru, Lama Yeshe.  What then is the essence of Vajrayana Buddhist who takes refuge in their Guru?

It is always easier not to answer questions posed by lay Buddhists by proclaiming that high lamas have clairvoyance and have a bigger vision beyond our understanding. This is the logic I have found to be unacceptable as how can a student learn when the facts are not explained.

The questions asked by Thaimonk are perfect if answers are given so that the controversy on Dorje Shugden can be somehow cleared.

I hope that answers are given to these very valid and important questions.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on October 12, 2018, 03:36:19 PM
What would the Dalai Lama and his CTA do if Lama Zopa and Lama Osel publicly stated that they practice Dorje Shugden?

Would they close their monasteries and tell their followers to turn their back on these Lamas?

Would that be the end of the FPMT worldwide?

Yes
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: lotus1 on October 14, 2018, 04:54:10 AM
It does not make any good sense for FPMT to keep statues of their founder, and they do not agree with what he practices or what their founder represented, a good solid practitioner of Dorje Shugden, faultless and loyal towards Dorje Shugden.

There are also pictures of Lama Zopa doing practices towards Trijang Rinpoche's stupa, of course Trijang Rinpoche is compassionate and forgives all who break samaya with him and Dorje Shugden. But why on one hand ban Dorje Shugden and on the other hand do puja at Trijang Rinpoche stupa who was a great Dorje Shugden lama who proliferated the teaching to thousands. isn't that somewhat hypocritical?

Very good points from Dharma space! Yes, if do not agree on Dorje Shugden practice of their founder, why still keep Lama Yeshe Statue and paying homage to H.H. Trijang Rinpoche's stupa?

Guru devotion cannot be selective. Either you don't follow that Guru, or once you have followed, you must go all the way and accept everything that the Guru do.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: lotus1 on October 14, 2018, 05:00:40 AM
Opinions on the whole Shugden issue has always been contradicting isn't it? With this latest issue, i hope it is creating more doubts among those haters of Dorje Shugden and make them realise the reasoning behind demonizing Dorje Shugden has always been contradicting. Time to really think and analyse all the claims against Dorje Shugden and revive this sacred practice in Tibetan Buddhism.

Fully agreed. Tibetans and those just blindly following CTA or Dalai Lama to discriminate Dorje Shugden practitioners should really think after seeing all the contradictory facts. THINK!!! May they have clearer mind to see the truth and push for the stop of the ban!
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Namdrol on October 14, 2018, 07:17:16 AM
From the FPMT website: “Restriction: FPMT has recently issued a new policy regarding the Shugden practice in accordance with the wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Lama Zopa Rinpoche has expressed the wish “not to have a guru-disciple relationship with anyone who is practicing Shugden.”

If that is the case, why is Lama Zopa and FPMT still worhsip Lama Yeshe's statue in FMPT center? Why do they still worship their late guru Lama Yeshe? Should't they cut off any guru-disciple relationship with Lama Yeshe since Lama Yeshe was a Shugden practitioner when he was alive? Why the double standard?

FPMT POLICY: FPMT teachers and key staff should not attend teachings by teachers who are known Shugden practitioners.

So please remove all teachings from FPMT because all of that Lama Zopa teaches are from his guru Lama Yeshe, and after all Lama Yeshe's teachings removed, there is nothing left in FPMT, so please close down all FPMT centers?

FPMT is full of absurdities in their policy regarding Dorje Shugden: https://fpmt.org/teachers/zopa/advice/shugden/
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: thaimonk on October 14, 2018, 10:20:03 AM
From the FPMT website: “Restriction: FPMT has recently issued a new policy regarding the Shugden practice in accordance with the wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Lama Zopa Rinpoche has expressed the wish “not to have a guru-disciple relationship with anyone who is practicing Shugden.”

If that is the case, why is Lama Zopa and FPMT still worhsip Lama Yeshe's statue in FMPT center? Why do they still worship their late guru Lama Yeshe? Should't they cut off any guru-disciple relationship with Lama Yeshe since Lama Yeshe was a Shugden practitioner when he was alive? Why the double standard?

FPMT POLICY: FPMT teachers and key staff should not attend teachings by teachers who are known Shugden practitioners.

So please remove all teachings from FPMT because all of that Lama Zopa teaches are from his guru Lama Yeshe, and after all Lama Yeshe's teachings removed, there is nothing left in FPMT, so please close down all FPMT centers?

FPMT is full of absurdities in their policy regarding Dorje Shugden: https://fpmt.org/teachers/zopa/advice/shugden/


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is an excellent point. If Lama Zopa does not wish to have a guru disciple relationship with those who practice Shugden, why does he still have statues of his root guru Lama Yeshe who practiced Dorje Shugden his whole life? Why does he place statues of Lama Yeshe at various FPMT centres and Kopan for students to pay homage to? If he places statues of Lama Yeshe on the shrines, then obviously he is still having a relationship of guru-disciple with Lama Yeshe. Why the double standard.


Strange.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: SabS on October 14, 2018, 01:41:23 PM
Having said the above, it would also be pertinent to remind that there are many "ordinary view" practitioners in FPMT and elsewhere who should ponder the questions posted by Thaimonk.

Being vehement and even violent against DS persons/organizations is not what Lama Zopa teaches. Don't ever think that he teachers that. In fact I would like to quote Lama Zopa once again on this issue:

"Another side of the teaching is that it is mentioned that the protector is an Arya Bodhisattva, a manifestation of Manjushri. So, then, there is also the risk of our creating very heavy karma in that context."

And there is a whole post you can read here about this:

https://newkadampatruth.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/letter-from-a-senior-fpmt-monk/ 

Letter from a senior FPMT monk
November 24, 2008

Below are some extracts from a letter written by Yeshe Sangye, a senior FPMT monk and close disciple of Lama Yeshe. The full letter can be found here. As he says himself at the end of his letter:

I hope all that read this would understand better.
That is my hope to write. As I have not said anything for over twenty years.

Why are we including his letter here? Because many times NKT-IKBU Centers and students have been at the receiving end of slander and disruption at the hands of FPMT Centers and students, ever since the Dalai Lama spoke out against Dorje Shugden and the FPMT decided to follow his lead. This is a fact, and it is backed up by Yeshe Sangye (below).

It is a serious matter to be involved in criticizing other Mahayana traditions (it’s a downfall of the Bodhisattva vows) and impeding the spreading of pure Buddhadharma is contributing to the suffering of others. This is a big world, big enough for NKT~IKBU and the FPMT and all other Buddhist traditions.  There are billions of suffering beings and these beings all have different karma.  While we rejoice in the FPMT’s work of spreading Buddha’s teachings, we do not rejoice in their political actions against the NKT because of following the Dalai Lama’s view.  Dharma mixed with politics is like delicious food mixed with poison – the only result will be suffering in the end.

As explained on the New Kadampa Truth website, FPMT members are regularly contributing to  Internet forums where they criticize the NKT and try to dissuade anyone reading their posts from attending NKT Centers.  The NKT has written to the FPMT asking them to desist from criticizing our tradition and specifically mentioning some individuals on the Geshe program (Tenzin Peljor); but nothing has improved. Quite apart from the fact that the FPMT de facto has an official policy of discrimination in place by not allowing Dorje Shugden practitioners to be teachers, to ordain in the FPMT tradition, or even to attend FPMT teachings, here are a few specific examples of the treatment the NKT has received from the FPMT:

FPMT Mexico has officially criticized NKT on their website.
One FPMT student claimed on an Amazon Buddhist discussion group that we are praying for the death of the Dalai Lama or FPMT Teachers such as Thubten Gonpo, one of our main critics.
A personal story from an NKT Teacher: “A student of mine who was heading for Foundation Programme spent the summer in Nepal.  He took one of the 10 day Lamrim courses at Kopan and told one of the nuns, a Swedish nun called Ven Karen, that he was from Kingston and went to the NKT Centre there.  He said she then spent a long time trying to convince him that we were a cult and that he should not go there.  She brought up things like we worship an evil spirit, we’re all about money etc. He came back disillusioned about our Centre and Buddhism in general. He wasn’t impressed with the FPMT that much, but her words stuck and after a couple of meetings with him, he left, taking with him our core students from the University.”
Another personal story from an NKT Teacher: “We had a student in Taiwan whose auntie became an FPMT nun and was banned from coming to our centre. His name is ***** and N**** is still in touch with him.”
A story of discrimination from France: “Around 2004 Vivre Autrement alternative health fair in Paris. We were denied a stand at this very popular annual event which attracts 1000s. I had applied under the name of Editions Tharpa, mainly to offer books etc. FPMT people turned the organizers against us, as they wanted to have a stand, and we were refused.”

According to one testimonial received from an NKT member in Boston:”We were constantly hearing feedback from General Program students about how they were told by the FPMTers that we who attended NKT centers were not Buddhists, we were a money making cult, we had no authority to teach, our ordinations were not real, Geshe Kelsang was an evil wizard leading us all into hell … you get the idea.”
These are just a few examples – we have many more examples of FPMT interference in the development of the NKT-IKBU, and this sad state of affairs is still continuing today.

Lama Yeshe of the FPMT was no spirit worshipper. His wish in establishing the FPMT was to spread Dharma in the West, a wish that the New Kadampa Tradition is fulfilling. There is no conflict between Lama Yeshe’s and Geshe Kelsang’s intentions, and they were close friends and peers who regularly engaged in Gelugpa spiritual practice together, including monthly Dorje Shugden pujas; so why is the FPMT attacking us? It can only be because FPMT members have become a political tool of the Dalai Lama’s to fulfill his wish to destroy this tradition. Is this any way to repay Lama Yeshe’s kindness?


(https://info-buddhism.com/bilder/TIN-Shugden/DSC_6412-2.jpg)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQt-3IlrvebhuujZyYO8FsWQ0vmvQAnIXSGWDpuY5f4mrq4nISZqA)

So please think before you act and this includes the Tibetan leadership in India.
Karma bites!

It is really sad to see the legacy of such an eminent Lama (Lama Yeshe) go down the drain due to the broken samaya of the students. From your earlier article, Lama Zopa's statement had that underlying meaning of the authenticity of DS practice and that he still believed in DS but circumstances belied his open practice. It seem as though his students acted just like how CTA took the Dalai Lama's words and propel the whole ban into discrimination, persecution and all the negative actions that is totally against any Buddhist tenet of compassion. The world is so big, what is wrong with the existence of differences? After all there are other different religions as well, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc. So why does FPMT not take actions against those too? Speak about narrow minded neurosis. It is very scary the kind of Karma that they are gathering.  I could just imagine the hearts of the older disciples who were true to their practice....must really be heavy from watching how their Guru, Lama Yeshe's hard works get desecrated by such wrongness.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Alex on October 14, 2018, 04:12:10 PM
Having said the above, it would also be pertinent to remind that there are many "ordinary view" practitioners in FPMT and elsewhere who should ponder the questions posted by Thaimonk.

Being vehement and even violent against DS persons/organizations is not what Lama Zopa teaches. Don't ever think that he teachers that. In fact I would like to quote Lama Zopa once again on this issue:

"Another side of the teaching is that it is mentioned that the protector is an Arya Bodhisattva, a manifestation of Manjushri. So, then, there is also the risk of our creating very heavy karma in that context."



And there is a whole post you can read here about this:

https://newkadampatruth.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/letter-from-a-senior-fpmt-monk/ 

Letter from a senior FPMT monk
November 24, 2008

Below are some extracts from a letter written by Yeshe Sangye, a senior FPMT monk and close disciple of Lama Yeshe. The full letter can be found here. As he says himself at the end of his letter:

I hope all that read this would understand better.
That is my hope to write. As I have not said anything for over twenty years.

Why are we including his letter here? Because many times NKT-IKBU Centers and students have been at the receiving end of slander and disruption at the hands of FPMT Centers and students, ever since the Dalai Lama spoke out against Dorje Shugden and the FPMT decided to follow his lead. This is a fact, and it is backed up by Yeshe Sangye (below).

It is a serious matter to be involved in criticizing other Mahayana traditions (it’s a downfall of the Bodhisattva vows) and impeding the spreading of pure Buddhadharma is contributing to the suffering of others. This is a big world, big enough for NKT~IKBU and the FPMT and all other Buddhist traditions.  There are billions of suffering beings and these beings all have different karma.  While we rejoice in the FPMT’s work of spreading Buddha’s teachings, we do not rejoice in their political actions against the NKT because of following the Dalai Lama’s view.  Dharma mixed with politics is like delicious food mixed with poison – the only result will be suffering in the end.

As explained on the New Kadampa Truth website, FPMT members are regularly contributing to  Internet forums where they criticize the NKT and try to dissuade anyone reading their posts from attending NKT Centers.  The NKT has written to the FPMT asking them to desist from criticizing our tradition and specifically mentioning some individuals on the Geshe program (Tenzin Peljor); but nothing has improved. Quite apart from the fact that the FPMT de facto has an official policy of discrimination in place by not allowing Dorje Shugden practitioners to be teachers, to ordain in the FPMT tradition, or even to attend FPMT teachings, here are a few specific examples of the treatment the NKT has received from the FPMT:

FPMT Mexico has officially criticized NKT on their website.
One FPMT student claimed on an Amazon Buddhist discussion group that we are praying for the death of the Dalai Lama or FPMT Teachers such as Thubten Gonpo, one of our main critics.
A personal story from an NKT Teacher: “A student of mine who was heading for Foundation Programme spent the summer in Nepal.  He took one of the 10 day Lamrim courses at Kopan and told one of the nuns, a Swedish nun called Ven Karen, that he was from Kingston and went to the NKT Centre there.  He said she then spent a long time trying to convince him that we were a cult and that he should not go there.  She brought up things like we worship an evil spirit, we’re all about money etc. He came back disillusioned about our Centre and Buddhism in general. He wasn’t impressed with the FPMT that much, but her words stuck and after a couple of meetings with him, he left, taking with him our core students from the University.”
Another personal story from an NKT Teacher: “We had a student in Taiwan whose auntie became an FPMT nun and was banned from coming to our centre. His name is ***** and N**** is still in touch with him.”
A story of discrimination from France: “Around 2004 Vivre Autrement alternative health fair in Paris. We were denied a stand at this very popular annual event which attracts 1000s. I had applied under the name of Editions Tharpa, mainly to offer books etc. FPMT people turned the organizers against us, as they wanted to have a stand, and we were refused.”

According to one testimonial received from an NKT member in Boston:”We were constantly hearing feedback from General Program students about how they were told by the FPMTers that we who attended NKT centers were not Buddhists, we were a money making cult, we had no authority to teach, our ordinations were not real, Geshe Kelsang was an evil wizard leading us all into hell … you get the idea.”
These are just a few examples – we have many more examples of FPMT interference in the development of the NKT-IKBU, and this sad state of affairs is still continuing today.

Lama Yeshe of the FPMT was no spirit worshipper. His wish in establishing the FPMT was to spread Dharma in the West, a wish that the New Kadampa Tradition is fulfilling. There is no conflict between Lama Yeshe’s and Geshe Kelsang’s intentions, and they were close friends and peers who regularly engaged in Gelugpa spiritual practice together, including monthly Dorje Shugden pujas; so why is the FPMT attacking us? It can only be because FPMT members have become a political tool of the Dalai Lama’s to fulfill his wish to destroy this tradition. Is this any way to repay Lama Yeshe’s kindness?


(https://info-buddhism.com/bilder/TIN-Shugden/DSC_6412-2.jpg)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQt-3IlrvebhuujZyYO8FsWQ0vmvQAnIXSGWDpuY5f4mrq4nISZqA)

So please think before you act and this includes the Tibetan leadership in India.
Karma bites!

It is really sad to see the legacy of such an eminent Lama (Lama Yeshe) go down the drain due to the broken samaya of the students. From your earlier article, Lama Zopa's statement had that underlying meaning of the authenticity of DS practice and that he still believed in DS but circumstances belied his open practice. It seem as though his students acted just like how CTA took the Dalai Lama's words and propel the whole ban into discrimination, persecution and all the negative actions that is totally against any Buddhist tenet of compassion. The world is so big, what is wrong with the existence of differences? After all there are other different religions as well, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc. So why does FPMT not take actions against those too? Speak about narrow minded neurosis. It is very scary the kind of Karma that they are gathering.  I could just imagine the hearts of the older disciples who were true to their practice....must really be heavy from watching how their Guru, Lama Yeshe's hard works get desecrated by such wrongness.

The passing of Lama Yeshe at an early age is already a sign that FPMT is having a broken samaya with him. If the students are diligent and maintain a pure and good samaya with their Guru, the Guru will be able to stay longer and only leave at the ripe age of 80 or higher. When a lama manifest illnesses and death at a young age, it is a direct indication that the students broke their samaya. Lama Zopa suffered a stroke recently and that is a bad news for FPMT.

Both their lamas suffered a stroke and have difficulties in expounding Dharma is an indication for broken samaya. Even the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe, Lama Osel disrobed and chose a secular life over the life of monkhood. All these signs are worrisome and FPMT is not doing anything to reverse it.

Abandoning their Guru's teaching is the worst thing that they can do and they give up Dorje Shugden practice just to be politically correct for their centers. They think they can get away with it by pretending nothing is wrong and continue to worship Lama Yeshe. Karma will catch up and it has already begun. If they lose both Lama Osel and Lama Zopa this time, I doubt FPMT will have the merit to support their spiritual guides to return to FPMT to continue their work there.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Rowntree on October 14, 2018, 06:02:59 PM
From the FPMT website: “Restriction: FPMT has recently issued a new policy regarding the Shugden practice in accordance with the wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Lama Zopa Rinpoche has expressed the wish “not to have a guru-disciple relationship with anyone who is practicing Shugden.”

If that is the case, why is Lama Zopa and FPMT still worhsip Lama Yeshe's statue in FMPT center? Why do they still worship their late guru Lama Yeshe? Should't they cut off any guru-disciple relationship with Lama Yeshe since Lama Yeshe was a Shugden practitioner when he was alive? Why the double standard?

FPMT POLICY: FPMT teachers and key staff should not attend teachings by teachers who are known Shugden practitioners.

So please remove all teachings from FPMT because all of that Lama Zopa teaches are from his guru Lama Yeshe, and after all Lama Yeshe's teachings removed, there is nothing left in FPMT, so please close down all FPMT centers?

FPMT is full of absurdities in their policy regarding Dorje Shugden: https://fpmt.org/teachers/zopa/advice/shugden/


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is an excellent point. If Lama Zopa does not wish to have a guru disciple relationship with those who practice Shugden, why does he still have statues of his root guru Lama Yeshe who practiced Dorje Shugden his whole life? Why does he place statues of Lama Yeshe at various FPMT centres and Kopan for students to pay homage to? If he places statues of Lama Yeshe on the shrines, then obviously he is still having a relationship of guru-disciple with Lama Yeshe. Why the double standard.


Strange.

Why does Lama Zopa still meet with Lama Osel and allowed Lama Osel to give teachings at the FPMT? Lama Osel is Lama Yeshe's reincarnation who was a Dorje Shugden practitioners. Why is Lama Zopa maintaining this guru-disciple relationship with Lama Osel?

Lama Zopa is contradicting his own words to be on the Dalai Lama's good book. He even donates to the CTA through FPMT and showing more and more interest in politics. The CTA happily receive money from FPMT that was left behind by Lama Yeshe, a Dorje Shugden practitioner. How shameless and greedy the CTA is!
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: daka on October 15, 2018, 08:26:41 AM


Why are they not doing all this and still keeping images and teachings of Lama Yeshe? Anyone has an answer?

Logically speaking, according to anti-Shugden people's logic, both founders of FMPT are not qualified to pass down any lineage teachings as both are corrupted.

Lama Yeshe is a strong Dorje Shugden practitioner throughout his life. Whatever teachings that transmitted by him should be regarded as invalid. Hence, as a student of Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa's teachings are also corrupted. All FPMT's teachings are corrupted.

Lama Zopa was recognized by Dorje Shugden. If Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, then shouldn't we think that whoever being recognized by Him is also the wrong candidate? Then who is Lama Zopa? A reincarnated lama who was recognized by Dorje Shugden? A student of a Dorje Shugden practitioner?

Where do all FPMT teachings come from? Are they still valid if both of their founders are corrupted in the beginning?

So by keeping Lama Yeshe's statue on their shrine, it's either FMPT is trying to hide the truth, hoping that no one will figure out the logic, or they themselves are naive to the logic itself. Either by hiding the truth or being naive, they are not qualified to pass down any lineage teachings, as one is lying, and another one is incapable. 
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Alex on October 15, 2018, 02:44:24 PM


Why are they not doing all this and still keeping images and teachings of Lama Yeshe? Anyone has an answer?

Logically speaking, according to anti-Shugden people's logic, both founders of FMPT are not qualified to pass down any lineage teachings as both are corrupted.

Lama Yeshe is a strong Dorje Shugden practitioner throughout his life. Whatever teachings that transmitted by him should be regarded as invalid. Hence, as a student of Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa's teachings are also corrupted. All FPMT's teachings are corrupted.

Lama Zopa was recognized by Dorje Shugden. If Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, then shouldn't we think that whoever being recognized by Him is also the wrong candidate? Then who is Lama Zopa? A reincarnated lama who was recognized by Dorje Shugden? A student of a Dorje Shugden practitioner?

Where do all FPMT teachings come from? Are they still valid if both of their founders are corrupted in the beginning?

So by keeping Lama Yeshe's statue on their shrine, it's either FMPT is trying to hide the truth, hoping that no one will figure out the logic, or they themselves are naive to the logic itself. Either by hiding the truth or being naive, they are not qualified to pass down any lineage teachings, as one is lying, and another one is incapable.

You got that right. FPMT's entire lineage comes from Lama Yeshe who practice Dorje Shugden practice strongly which FPMT now labeled it as demon practice. Any other practices from Lama Yeshe should be automatically categorized as a demon practice. It is impossible for true Buddhist to accept practices from a demon practitioner no matter how authentic they may sound because the lineage is not there and the blessings of the Buddha is absent due to the breach in the Refuge Vow.

It is not logical for FPMT to give up Dorje Shugden practice but still practice other practices from Lama Yeshe. They cannot be selective on the teachings that the Guru gives. On the other hand, when they condemn Dorje Shugden practice is a demonic practice, they are indirectly saying their Guru is a demon practitioner. How can they still practice any other practices that are given by a demon practitioner?

Even if they say Lama Yeshe is a true Buddhist and he made a mistake in praying to Dorje Shugden and hence they can just ignore the practice and continue with the other practices that they deem authentic. In Tibetan Buddhism, if we are to give up a practice that our Guru gave us, we have to seek permission from the Guru that gave the practice to us to stop the practice. Since Lama Yeshe had passed away when they gave up Dorje Shugden practice, they would have broken their samaya with Lama Yeshe. A broken samaya means whatever spiritual practices that they engage in the future, attainments will not arise. Hence, all FPMT activities will have no blessings from the Guru and no attainmetns will arise.

Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: dsnowlion on October 15, 2018, 05:17:20 PM
Quote
It is not logical for FPMT to give up Dorje Shugden practice but still practice other practices from Lama Yeshe. They cannot be selective on the teachings that the Guru gives. On the other hand, when they condemn Dorje Shugden practice is a demonic practice, they are indirectly saying their Guru is a demon practitioner. How can they still practice any other practices that are given by a demon practitioner?

Agree with what you said Alex. How is it possible that the Lamas can make a mistake practising and spreading a demonic practice can also be spreading Buddha's teachings? Somehow FPMT does not get this part. That's because they are doing all this for political reasons.

No religion that is true and good would ever discriminate anyone. What FPMT does is not Buddhist and totally hypocritical. Their discrimination makes them undharmic and all this will eventually come back to them. I guess it has already begun when Lama Osel disrobed and now heading nowhere and is a nobody and Lama Zopa had a stroke. When will they wake up and mend their samaya? Is this the beginning of the end for FPMT? A slow death?
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Alex on October 16, 2018, 02:31:57 PM
Quote
It is not logical for FPMT to give up Dorje Shugden practice but still practice other practices from Lama Yeshe. They cannot be selective on the teachings that the Guru gives. On the other hand, when they condemn Dorje Shugden practice is a demonic practice, they are indirectly saying their Guru is a demon practitioner. How can they still practice any other practices that are given by a demon practitioner?

Agree with what you said Alex. How is it possible that the Lamas can make a mistake practising and spreading a demonic practice can also be spreading Buddha's teachings? Somehow FPMT does not get this part. That's because they are doing all this for political reasons.

No religion that is true and good would ever discriminate anyone. What FPMT does is not Buddhist and totally hypocritical. Their discrimination makes them undharmic and all this will eventually come back to them. I guess it has already begun when Lama Osel disrobed and now heading nowhere and is a nobody and Lama Zopa had a stroke. When will they wake up and mend their samaya? Is this the beginning of the end for FPMT? A slow death?

FPMT is definitely playing the politic game here. There are no other reasons for FPMT to give up Dorje Shugden practice in the first place unless it is to look politically correct to get on CTA's and Dalai Lama's good side. Being on their side can get more supporters, sponsors and also members by using Dalai Lama's fame.

It is undeniable that outwardly being against the Dalai Lama can bring some severe consequences to the center but when it compared to breaking their samaya with Lama Yeshe, it is nothing. When they break their samaya with Lama Yeshe by invalidating part of his teaching, the blessing of the lama and lineage masters will stop.

Whatever spiritual activity that they plan to carry out in their center will have no blessing and no lineage. It is much worst to break your samaya with your guru than to have fewer members and fewer sponsorships. Now that the karma of their broken samaya with Lama Yeshe has manifested when Lama Osel decided to lead a secular life and Lama Zopa suffered from a stroke which hinders the spreading of dharma
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Tracy on October 22, 2018, 12:49:14 AM
Quote
It is not logical for FPMT to give up Dorje Shugden practice but still practice other practices from Lama Yeshe. They cannot be selective on the teachings that the Guru gives. On the other hand, when they condemn Dorje Shugden practice is a demonic practice, they are indirectly saying their Guru is a demon practitioner. How can they still practice any other practices that are given by a demon practitioner?

Agree with what you said Alex. How is it possible that the Lamas can make a mistake practising and spreading a demonic practice can also be spreading Buddha's teachings? Somehow FPMT does not get this part. That's because they are doing all this for political reasons.

No religion that is true and good would ever discriminate anyone. What FPMT does is not Buddhist and totally hypocritical. Their discrimination makes them undharmic and all this will eventually come back to them. I guess it has already begun when Lama Osel disrobed and now heading nowhere and is a nobody and Lama Zopa had a stroke. When will they wake up and mend their samaya? Is this the beginning of the end for FPMT? A slow death?

FPMT is definitely playing the politic game here. There are no other reasons for FPMT to give up Dorje Shugden practice in the first place unless it is to look politically correct to get on CTA's and Dalai Lama's good side. Being on their side can get more supporters, sponsors and also members by using Dalai Lama's fame.

It is undeniable that outwardly being against the Dalai Lama can bring some severe consequences to the center but when it compared to breaking their samaya with Lama Yeshe, it is nothing. When they break their samaya with Lama Yeshe by invalidating part of his teaching, the blessing of the lama and lineage masters will stop.

Whatever spiritual activity that they plan to carry out in their center will have no blessing and no lineage. It is much worst to break your samaya with your guru than to have fewer members and fewer sponsorships. Now that the karma of their broken samaya with Lama Yeshe has manifested when Lama Osel decided to lead a secular life and Lama Zopa suffered from a stroke which hinders the spreading of dharma

FPMT giving up Dorje Shugden practice must have been motivated by money. They want to be political right and they don't want to lose their sponsors. Many lamas who didn't give up Dorje Shugden practice have lost many sponsors.

Perhaps it is out of fear that they might not survive without the big sponsors so FPMT decided to give up the practice their lama has given them. But what they didn't realise is that they have broken their Samaya with their lama and nothing they do will have any blessing at all. I think Lama Zopa didn't make this decision himself, he left it to his students to decide. But he is still practicing Dorje Shugden secretly.

The manifestation of the stroke suffered by Lama Zopa is a clear indication something is not right with the students. Lama Zopa might be taking on some heavy negative karma of the students by manifesting the stroke. As for Lama Osel, he must be quite disappointed with how FPMT is run, he has not parted fully from the center but he is not doing much for FPMT either. It is a pity that Lama Osel in this life is not able to do as much Dharma work as Lama Yeshe.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Alex on October 23, 2018, 07:17:36 PM
Quote
It is not logical for FPMT to give up Dorje Shugden practice but still practice other practices from Lama Yeshe. They cannot be selective on the teachings that the Guru gives. On the other hand, when they condemn Dorje Shugden practice is a demonic practice, they are indirectly saying their Guru is a demon practitioner. How can they still practice any other practices that are given by a demon practitioner?

Agree with what you said Alex. How is it possible that the Lamas can make a mistake practising and spreading a demonic practice can also be spreading Buddha's teachings? Somehow FPMT does not get this part. That's because they are doing all this for political reasons.

No religion that is true and good would ever discriminate anyone. What FPMT does is not Buddhist and totally hypocritical. Their discrimination makes them undharmic and all this will eventually come back to them. I guess it has already begun when Lama Osel disrobed and now heading nowhere and is a nobody and Lama Zopa had a stroke. When will they wake up and mend their samaya? Is this the beginning of the end for FPMT? A slow death?

FPMT is definitely playing the politic game here. There are no other reasons for FPMT to give up Dorje Shugden practice in the first place unless it is to look politically correct to get on CTA's and Dalai Lama's good side. Being on their side can get more supporters, sponsors and also members by using Dalai Lama's fame.

It is undeniable that outwardly being against the Dalai Lama can bring some severe consequences to the center but when it compared to breaking their samaya with Lama Yeshe, it is nothing. When they break their samaya with Lama Yeshe by invalidating part of his teaching, the blessing of the lama and lineage masters will stop.

Whatever spiritual activity that they plan to carry out in their center will have no blessing and no lineage. It is much worst to break your samaya with your guru than to have fewer members and fewer sponsorships. Now that the karma of their broken samaya with Lama Yeshe has manifested when Lama Osel decided to lead a secular life and Lama Zopa suffered from a stroke which hinders the spreading of dharma

FPMT giving up Dorje Shugden practice must have been motivated by money. They want to be political right and they don't want to lose their sponsors. Many lamas who didn't give up Dorje Shugden practice have lost many sponsors.

Perhaps it is out of fear that they might not survive without the big sponsors so FPMT decided to give up the practice their lama has given them. But what they didn't realise is that they have broken their Samaya with their lama and nothing they do will have any blessing at all. I think Lama Zopa didn't make this decision himself, he left it to his students to decide. But he is still practicing Dorje Shugden secretly.

The manifestation of the stroke suffered by Lama Zopa is a clear indication something is not right with the students. Lama Zopa might be taking on some heavy negative karma of the students by manifesting the stroke. As for Lama Osel, he must be quite disappointed with how FPMT is run, he has not parted fully from the center but he is not doing much for FPMT either. It is a pity that Lama Osel in this life is not able to do as much Dharma work as Lama Yeshe.

When the Dorje Shugden ban was imposed, alot of the Dharma centre that practice Dorje Shugden had to choose between their Guru and His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Alot of the centre chose to give up their Guru to remain politically correct because going against the Dalai Lama's decision is not something that can bring more sponsorship to the centre.

Due to His Holiness the Dalai Lama's fame, many of the sponsors might stop funding their monasteries and dharma centre if they are practising Dorje Shugden. For an outsider, Guru devotion means nothing and its not as difficult as it seems. That is why alot of the dharma centres chooses Dalai Lama over their Lama because of that. Due to their lack of understandings, they had broken their samaya with their Guru.

Lama Osel might even manifest illness or death if the situation continues. This is because the students in FPMT will run out of merit to support their Lama to be around and to receive Dharma from him. Lama Osel will have to cut short his time here because his time is wasted if he is not teaching any Dharma and benefiting any sentient beings. Hence, he will pass away and move on to his next life and he will be born in a place where he can benefit many sentient beings by teaching Dharma.

Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: thaimonk on October 25, 2018, 10:56:31 AM
Lama Osel disrobed, never finished his studies, achieved nothing much in his secular life, just running around with his girlfriend and clubbing in Ibizia, Spain. His previous life accomplished so much with the help of his determination, hard work and Dorje Shugden. Lama Yeshe credited much of his success to the help he was bestowed by Dorje Shugden. By FPMT abanding Dorje Shugden, they broke their samaya with their lineage gurus such as Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche from whom they received the Dorje Shugden sogtae commitment practice. Also it was with Lama Yeshe's permission they received sogtae from these great masters. By abandoning the practice, they broke their spiritual bond (samaya) which is sacred in tantra with Lama Yeshe and lineage lamas. So it is no surprise Lama Yeshe came back in this incarnation unable to manifest being a great dharma teacher like his previous life. It is a shame and embarrassment to FPMT that Lama Osel ended up not doing much. It is a testimony to their failure in keeping their samaya to their guru and lineage lamas.

FPMT wanted fame and rub shoulders with the famous and in return, they lost Lama Yeshe. After Lama Zopa passes away, FPMT will just go down for sure. No one can take over.

Breaking their samaya was the wrong thing to do.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: phyag na rlangs pa on October 25, 2018, 11:18:04 AM
Quote
Lama Osel disrobed, never finished his studies, achieved nothing much in his secular life, just running around with his girlfriend and clubbing in Ibizia, Spain. His previous life accomplished so much with the help of his determination, hard work and Dorje Shugden. Lama Yeshe credited much of his success to the help he was bestowed by Dorje Shugden. By FPMT abanding Dorje Shugden, they broke their samaya with their lineage gurus such as Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche from whom they received the Dorje Shugden sogtae commitment practice. Also it was with Lama Yeshe's permission they received sogtae from these great masters. By abandoning the practice, they broke their spiritual bond (samaya) which is sacred in tantra with Lama Yeshe and lineage lamas. So it is no surprise Lama Yeshe came back in this incarnation unable to manifest being a great dharma teacher like his previous life. It is a shame and embarrassment to FPMT that Lama Osel ended up not doing much. It is a testimony to their failure in keeping their samaya to their guru and lineage lamas.

This is so disheartening to read. Lama Zopa and FPMT's actions is akin to flushing enlightenment down the toilet. Lama Yeshe with all his previous achievements and attainments could have benefited so many people more but alas, that doesn't look like it's going to happen in this life.

Lama Osel is the wheel of sharp weapons turning on Lama Zopa and FPMT.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: thaimonk on October 25, 2018, 11:50:34 AM
I do not understand how a Lama like Lama Rinpoche can write things like this, when it is well-known that he himself gave Dorje Shugden initiations and told the initiates that they were incurring a lifelong obligation to continue the practice, and that breaking such an obligation would incur grave negative karma. It is very confusing and frankly, depressing.

Lama Zopa has written some excellent books, such as his work on the Medicine Buddha. However, his logic in this foreword is gravely flawed and perhaps even essentially anti-Buddhist. For instance, he says, “If the Precious Victorious One, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, is not the actual Buddha and Arya Avalokiteshvara, then you can say that in this world there is no emanation of Buddha benefiting sentient beings. In this way bodhicitta and the entire teachings of the Buddha become false.”

Say what??? I do not know whether the Dalai Lama is or is not an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, though, based on his words and actions, I sincerely doubt it. (I mean, the man has repeatedly stated in countless interviews that he is not enlightened, and seems to relish scoffing at the notion that he might be). Regardless, the fact that the Dalai Lama is or is not such an emanation has nothing whatsoever to do with whether there are other emanations of Buddha currently on earth benefitting sentient beings.

Logically, one does not rule out the possibility that other living Buddhas exist today, or other emanations of Avalokiteshvara, simply by denying that the Dalai Lama is such a one. If I deny that my wife is a panda bear, I am not denying that pandas exist. Indeed, to make a claim of exclusivity on the Dalai Lama’s behalf, as Lama Zopa has done, is really anti-Mahayanan in spirit, for it belittles and denigrates the efficacy of all other Buddhist schools and traditions. Someone seems to have imported the Roman Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility into Dharamsala, and now they are beginning to round up the infidels and burn them at the stake.

It is the height of irony that Lama Zopa urges practitioners to examine their beliefs openly and honestly, and then states as a matter of fact that the Dalai Lama is omniscient and one must adhere to what the ‘omniscient one’ says. Am I not permitted to question whether the Dalai Lama is truly omniscient, and to judge this claim by the evidence of the man’s words and actions? Am I not allowed to take him at his word when he says he is NOT omniscient? Am I not allowed to question his lack of success in defending the cause of Tibet, or his lack of compassion in his treatment of Shugden practitioners, or his bumbling manner in any number of interviews, or his willingness to be used as a CIA puppet or guest editor of a highly immoral fashion magazine?

Sadly, the recent actions of Lama Zopa and the Dalai Lama have completely soured me on Tibetan Buddhism. I have been forced to turn back to the Theravadan and Chinese teachings, because I will never again turn my will and intellect over to a guru who demands total obedience, even when he teaches one thing today and a completely different thing tomorrow. With this version of Buddhism, it’s a heads-you-win, tails-I-lose situation for the sincere follower … any faults of the guru are really the fault of the practitioner, whose bad karma has caused those faults to manifest. And even when the guru manifests obvious error, he still is not to be questioned because the error again is in the eye of the practitioner and only through blind loyalty can he cleanse his karma to the point where sincere questioning is of any value. If this is the case, then there is no point in advising practitioners to question and judge the teachings, because their bad karma will not allow them to make reasonable judgments. Reason itself is banished; it has become soiled and fallen and no longer can be trusted. Blind obedience becomes the only permitted path … you must believe in the Dalai Lama because he is a priori infallible and any evidence to the contrary is not credible, because ONLY the Dalai Lama represents Buddha in today’s world and EVERYONE ELSE is deluded.

And so the question arises: if I am required to have blind faith in the Dalai Lama in order to be “saved”, what separates this form of Buddhism from any other exclusivist, country-club members only, religion? What separates Buddhism from the monotheistic religions once reason has been outlawed? You can use the same “your bad karma prevents you from seeing things as they are” argument to justify any religion, any cult, any superstition, any belief whatsoever. It might take a slightly different form — “your ways are not God’s ways,” or “your reason was broken in the original fall from grace of sinful man,” but the essence is the same: don’t trust yourself, look to others, particularly those who are held up as masters, for the truth. In this way, Lama Zopa’s attempt to defend the Dalai Lama becomes an atomic weapon capable of destroying any and all religious belief, or empowering any and all zealots of every stripe.

I find all of this unworthy of the spirit of inquiry I believe Buddha Shakyamuni promoted, and the spirit of compassion that Avalokiteshvara represents. I hope that one day all the confusion that these modern-day avatars have sowed will be cleared up and those of us who relied upon them as examples and guides on the spiritual path will have our disappointments honestly and frankly acknowledged and rectified.

Comment left by a Howard from http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/recognized-by-dorje-shugden-but-speaks-against-dorje-shugden/comment-page-1/#comment-911810 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/recognized-by-dorje-shugden-but-speaks-against-dorje-shugden/comment-page-1/#comment-911810)
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: thaimonk on October 25, 2018, 11:58:27 AM
In FPMT's centre called Tushita in Dharamsala, North India, they have a statue of Lama Yeshe in the form of Vajrasattva with consort.  Now the question is simple: If Lama Yeshe practiced Dorje Shugden, then he is a bad lama, so why doesn't FPMT stop the homage/respect to their founding father Lama Yeshe?If they trust him, they will go to three lower realms for worshipping Lama Yeshe who worshipped Dorje Shugden. And all statues of Lama Yeshe should be discarded from all their centres right? In fact, in nearby Gaden Choling Nunnery in Dharamsala, the nun's took their Dorje Shugden statue out of their main prayer hall where it was worshipped for decades and destroyed the statue in the garbage dump and jumped up and down on it to further desecrate it.

Furthermore they make a Dorje Shugden worshipping Lama Yeshe in the form of divinity as Buddha Vajrasattva. That is a double-whammy no right? Why is FPMT so contradictory? Why are they blind to this double standard?

If they wish to disassociate from Dorje Shugden lamas, they have to disassociate from their own centre-founding Lama who is Lama Yeshe. They must set the example right. Everyone knows Lama Yeshe worshipped, trusted and believed in Dorje Shugden till the end of his life. Lama Yeshe is the one that founded FPMT, so they have to be clean across the board and be honest right? If disassociate, then do it all the way. They should have no pictures, statues and images of Lama Yeshe at all. They should not be making images of him as a deity (Vajrasattva) as that is even more wrong according to their stance against Shugden and Shugden Lamas.
Why encourage their members to worship a Dorje Shugden loving Lama like Lama Yeshe? That is what they are doing when they keep all his images in their centres around the world. They are sending the wrong message out. Lama Yeshe was wrong in their view to practice Dorje Shugden. Lama Yeshe broke his refuge vows by practicing Dorje Shugden. Lama Yeshe's lineage, teachings, initiations and commentaries are all corrupted because he worshipped Dorje Shugden. So they should ritually expel his images from their centres with immediate effect to be in the clean arena.

Dalai Lama said if you worship Dorje Shugden, no one should associate with you and you will go to hell. So how come FPMT still keeps a statue of Lama Yeshe in many of their centres? Is that not hypocrisy?

Photos attached: Lama Yeshe as Vajrasattva with Consort housed in Tushita Centre-Dharamsala and Lama Zopa praying to a statue of Lama Yeshe





For further reading:

FPMT Lineage Masters are Dorje Shugden Believers (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-lineage-masters-are-believers-of-dorje-shugden/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-lineage-masters-are-believers-of-dorje-shugden/))

FPMT, Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-dalai-lama-and-dorje-shugden/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/fpmt-dalai-lama-and-dorje-shugden/))

A True Inspiration: Claudio Cipullo (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/a-true-inspiration-claudio-cipullo/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/a-true-inspiration-claudio-cipullo/))

Fabrizio Pallotti (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/fabrizio-pallotti/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/fabrizio-pallotti/))

Politically Correct at the Expense of the Lineage (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/politically-correct-at-the-expense-of-the-lineage/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/politically-correct-at-the-expense-of-the-lineage/))

Lama Yeshe and Geshe Rabten (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/mail-out/lama-yeshe-and-geshe-rabten/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/mail-out/lama-yeshe-and-geshe-rabten/))

The Broken Samayas of FPMT (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-broken-samayas-of-fpmt/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-broken-samayas-of-fpmt/))

The Questionable Policies of the FPMT (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-questionable-policies-of-the-fpmt/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-questionable-policies-of-the-fpmt/))

Lama Zopa admitted to being recognized by Dorje Shugden (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/others-old/lama-zopa-admitted-to-being-recognized-by-dorje-shugden/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/others-old/lama-zopa-admitted-to-being-recognized-by-dorje-shugden/))

Recognized by Dorje Shugden, but Speaks against Dorje Shugden (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/recognized-by-dorje-shugden-but-speaks-against-dorje-shugden/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/recognized-by-dorje-shugden-but-speaks-against-dorje-shugden/))

Kopan Monks Asking for Dorje Shugden Puja for Lama Zopa (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/kopan-monks-asking-for-dorje-shugden-puja-for-lama-zopa/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/kopan-monks-asking-for-dorje-shugden-puja-for-lama-zopa/))

Dakini Healed Lama Zopa? (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/dakini-healed-lama-zopa/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/dakini-healed-lama-zopa/))

Who made Lama Zopa a Rinpoche? (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/who-made-lama-zopa-a-rinpoche/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/who-made-lama-zopa-a-rinpoche/))
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: phyag na rlangs pa on October 25, 2018, 12:20:39 PM
In FPMT's centre called Tushita in Dharamsala, North India, they have a statue of Lama Yeshe in the form of Vajrasattva with consort. Now the question is simple: If Lama Yeshe practiced Dorje Shugden, then he is a bad lama, so why doesn't FPMT stop the homage/respect to their founding father Lama Yeshe?

It's so bizarre how FPMT has deified Lama Yeshe to such an extent, but refuse to accept their lama's Dorje Shugden practice.

If Lama Zopa saying that his own guru's practice may be a mistake, and he's saying that the same guru, who he regards as an enlightened being (and in this case with the Vajrasattva statue, as a Buddha) is gravely wrong... then, why would anyone want to be a Tibetan Buddhist or even be any kind of Buddhist if the Buddhas can make mistakes?!!!

Is FPMT the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition, or does it really just stand for: Foundation for the Poisoning of the Mahayana Tradition?
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: thaimonk on October 25, 2018, 02:26:50 PM
Lama Zopa, who has received sogtae (initiation of Dorje Shugden) from His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, had said that:

"Lama (Yeshe) and I practiced Shugden for many years. That was always the main thing that Lama did whenever there were problems to overcome. At the beginning of every Kopan course, Lama always did Shugden puja to eliminate hindrances."

"My root guru, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche; Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru’s root guru; His Holiness Zong Rinpoche, from whom many of the older students received the initiation of Shugden; and the previous incarnation of Gomo Rinpoche, who has a strong connection with Istituto Lama Tsongkhapa, here in Italy, all promoted the practice of Shugden."

Photos: 1) Teachings by H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche to FPMT students. 2) As Lama Yeshe reached the end of his life, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche came to the hospital to do prayers for Lama Yeshe. Lama Yeshe was very devoted to Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden till the end.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: thaimonk on October 25, 2018, 02:50:25 PM
In FPMT's centre called Tushita in Dharamsala, North India, they have a statue of Lama Yeshe in the form of Vajrasattva with consort. Now the question is simple: If Lama Yeshe practiced Dorje Shugden, then he is a bad lama, so why doesn't FPMT stop the homage/respect to their founding father Lama Yeshe?

It's so bizarre how FPMT has deified Lama Yeshe to such an extent, but refuse to accept their lama's Dorje Shugden practice.

If Lama Zopa saying that his own guru's practice may be a mistake, and he's saying that the same guru, who he regards as an enlightened being (and in this case with the Vajrasattva statue, as a Buddha) is gravely wrong... then, why would anyone want to be a Tibetan Buddhist or even be any kind of Buddhist if the Buddhas can make mistakes?!!!

Is FPMT the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition, or does it really just stand for: Foundation for the Poisoning of the Mahayana Tradition?


_________________________

You made very good points. Very logical and air-tight.

It does discourage people to enter Tibetan Buddhism.


Sad.  :(
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: PrajNa on October 26, 2018, 01:38:21 AM
Lama Zopa, who has received sogtae (initiation of Dorje Shugden) from His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, had said that:

"Lama (Yeshe) and I practiced Shugden for many years. That was always the main thing that Lama did whenever there were problems to overcome. At the beginning of every Kopan course, Lama always did Shugden puja to eliminate hindrances."

"My root guru, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche; Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru’s root guru; His Holiness Zong Rinpoche, from whom many of the older students received the initiation of Shugden; and the previous incarnation of Gomo Rinpoche, who has a strong connection with Istituto Lama Tsongkhapa, here in Italy, all promoted the practice of Shugden."

Photos: 1) Teachings by H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche to FPMT students. 2) As Lama Yeshe reached the end of his life, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche came to the hospital to do prayers for Lama Yeshe. Lama Yeshe was very devoted to Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden till the end.

This is very sad because many of their lamas are lamas who practice Dorje Shugden. FPMT's current policy is that those in service or teaching in FPMT centers, projects and services do not engage in the practice of Shugden, students regularly attending FPMT centers should not practice Shugden, and FPMT teachers and key staff should not attend teachings by teachers who are known Shugden practitioners. So it means incarnation of lamas who practice Dorje Shugden, the (previous) students who want to connect with the reincarnation of their lamas cannot do if this incarnation also practice Dorje Shugden.

Weird. They can declare that their students do not practice, or their centre do not practice. Why to that extreme? What's the purpose? To look clean and 'align' with the Dalai Lama's policy so that the centres can get funding and support from Tibetan Buddhist communities? For that, to give up samaya/bond with teachers?  :o
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: dsnowlion on October 26, 2018, 02:13:06 AM
Thank you thaimonk for posting. There is just too many clear evidence showing how devoted Lama Yeshe is towards his Gurus and also towards his protector Dorje Shugden. I doubt that Lama Yeshe would ever give up his Guru and practice just to be seen to be politically correct.

So why is FPMT so hung up over be "pure" and "clean" while they worship Lama Yeshe who is a Shugden devotee through and through? How can they go around condemning and discriminating other Lamas and practitioners while the worship and seek blessings from a Shugden Lama?

I also heard that awhile back Tsem Tulku actually donated a huge 3 feet Lama Tsongkhapa statue with his 2 heart disciples to Root Institue in Bodhgaya. Now we all know that Tsem Tulku is a huge advocate for lifting the Shugden ban through peaceful means, so why is FPMT keeping a Shugden Lama's gift? Shouldn't it be considered unpure and unclean, hence returned to the sponsor(s)? I believe the picture below will show you the statue that Tsem Tulku donated in the past.

(https://preview.ibb.co/iX6qiA/34-A-LZR-on-throne-in-gompa-with-bell-and-text.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dGjMqq)
alumina melting temperature (https://aluminumsulfate.net/aluminum-oxide)
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on October 26, 2018, 06:38:24 PM
It's so very easy to condemn Lama Zopa for not committing and act of corporate suicide.

Lets see now where would Lama Zopa and the FPMT be had they stood up to the Dalai Lama and the CTA's ban?

They would have been destroyed.

They still continue to teach on the Buddha and many Yidams.

But that's not enough for some who wanted Lama Zopa to be destroyed.

He and the FPMT continue to teach Buddhism and that is better than nothing.

So easy to condemn others.

If tomorrow the Dalai Lama lifts the ban then the FPMT will be in place to re start the teaching on Dorje Shugden.

What about all those years Tsem Tulku remained publicly silent about his Dorje Shugden practice?

Did he have something to fear back then?

Yes

Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on October 26, 2018, 07:22:02 PM
Yes Lama Zopa did not stand up to the Dalai Lama and his CTA over Dorje Shugden.

H.H. the 41st Sakya Trizin did not stand up to the Dalai Lama and his CTA over Dorje Shugden.

The present Trijang Rinpoche travels with body guards.

The current incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen has never been seen publicly and is most likely hiding out of fear of assassination.

Tsem Tulku hid the fact that he was a follower of Dorje Shugden for years and only came out in the last few years to tell us the truth.

Tibetan monks and nuns have lost their monasteries.

Tibetan followers of Dorje Shugden have lost their jobs and live in fear for their and their families lives.

Easy to be brave sitting at you computer and not using your real names on this site like I do, Harold Musetescu.

But not so easy to be brave in the real world where it could cost you everything, including your life.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Drolma on October 26, 2018, 09:29:32 PM
Thank you thaimonk for posting. There is just too many clear evidence showing how devoted Lama Yeshe is towards his Gurus and also towards his protector Dorje Shugden. I doubt that Lama Yeshe would ever give up his Guru and practice just to be seen to be politically correct.

So why is FPMT so hung up over be "pure" and "clean" while they worship Lama Yeshe who is a Shugden devotee through and through? How can they go around condemning and discriminating other Lamas and practitioners while the worship and seek blessings from a Shugden Lama?

I also heard that awhile back Tsem Tulku actually donated a huge 3 feet Lama Tsongkhapa statue with his 2 heart disciples to Root Institue in Bodhgaya. Now we all know that Tsem Tulku is a huge advocate for lifting the Shugden ban through peaceful means, so why is FPMT keeping a Shugden Lama's gift? Shouldn't it be considered unpure and unclean, hence returned to the sponsor(s)? I believe the picture below will show you the statue that Tsem Tulku donated in the past.

(https://preview.ibb.co/iX6qiA/34-A-LZR-on-throne-in-gompa-with-bell-and-text.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dGjMqq)
alumina melting temperature (https://aluminumsulfate.net/aluminum-oxide)

How does giving up the practice given by the guru make a center pure and clean? To begin with, the center is founded by a Dorje Shugden lama, the donations to build the center came from Dorje Shugden practitioners. Everything FPMT has now now was the result of the great effort put in by Dorje Shugden practitioners.

The teachings they have received are from Dorje Shugden lamas. The fact that the FPMT or Lama Zopa has given up Dorje Shugden practice does not make FPMT or Lama Yeshe clean because all the knowledge Lama Yeshe has, came from Dorje Shugden lamas. If he continues to spread Dharma, which was passed down to him by a Dorje Shugden lama, does it mean he is not teaching pure Dharma since Dorje Shugden is equivalent to impurity? How is it possible an impure monk like Lama Yeshe can give pure teaching?

If FPMT's teachings are pure, it means what Lama Yeshe has taught Lama Zopa was pure. If the teachings of Lama Yeshe were pure, it means Lama Yeshe was pure. If Lama Yeshe was pure it means Dorje Shugden is pure! It cannot be everything about Lama Yeshe is pure except for the Dorje Shugden practice. All gurus are perfect, how can Lama Yeshe have faults? FPMT really have to look at their own logic.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Drolma on October 26, 2018, 09:43:17 PM
I think FPMT just wants to be in Dalai Lama's good book so they did not think too much of their action. They did not think people will start questioning them the logic behind giving up Dorje Shugden practice and keeping Lama Yeshe's statue in their center. They just happily think they are pure and clean because they don't practice Dorje Shugden.

If FPMT is really so goody, they would have started their centers from scratch without using anything left behind by the Dorje Shugden practitioners. The statues they put on their altar should be the Dalai Lama since they are following the Dalai Lama's instructions. They have abandoned their teacher! It just shows how greedy FPMT is. They are profiting on Lama Yeshe's attainments!

Lama Yeshe was a great lama who spread Dharma in the western world. Many still respect Lama Yeshe until today. His achievements are a great tool to give FPMT a very prestigious status and can help to draw many students to their centers. So FPMT is, in fact, making use of Lama Yeshe's fame to make money. No wonder Lama Osel refuses to go back to FPMT and remains as an ordinary person.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Alex on October 27, 2018, 02:35:26 AM
I think FPMT just wants to be in Dalai Lama's good book so they did not think too much of their action. They did not think people will start questioning them the logic behind giving up Dorje Shugden practice and keeping Lama Yeshe's statue in their center. They just happily think they are pure and clean because they don't practice Dorje Shugden.

If FPMT is really so goody, they would have started their centers from scratch without using anything left behind by the Dorje Shugden practitioners. The statues they put on their altar should be the Dalai Lama since they are following the Dalai Lama's instructions. They have abandoned their teacher! It just shows how greedy FPMT is. They are profiting on Lama Yeshe's attainments!

Lama Yeshe was a great lama who spread Dharma in the western world. Many still respect Lama Yeshe until today. His achievements are a great tool to give FPMT a very prestigious status and can help to draw many students to their centres. So FPMT is, in fact, making use of Lama Yeshe's fame to make money. No wonder Lama Osel refuses to go back to FPMT and remains as an ordinary person.

FPMT is just a dharma centre that is not sincere to their dharma practice. Just like what Drolma had pointed out, if they are really sincere about their practice and really believes that Dorje Shugden is a demon and harmful to them, they would have started their own centre instead of continuing what Lama Yeshe had left behind. Since they regard Dorje Shugden is a demon, that means Lama Yeshe is a demon practitioner. Why would they want to continue a lineage of a demon practitioner and continue to use his centre? Why it is okay to use a demon practitioner's centre to continue with their Dharma activities?

On the other hand, they kept Lama Yeshe's statues in their centre while calling Dorje Shugden practitioners, demon practitioner. They are literally keeping a demon practitioner on their altar. How can they say their lineage is pure? They are being extremely hypocritical on their practices and only do what benefits them.

They had broken their samaya severely when they renounced Dorje Shugden practice. The effect is clearly seen when we observe Lama Osel. He now disrobes and avoiding monastic life. He is not interested in Dharma and prefers to have a secular life instead. If FPMT continues their stunt, Lama Osel will leave FPMT when the negative karma overwhelms their merit to receive Dharma from their root Guru. That will be the real tragedy. This is the result of prioritising the eight worldly dharmas over Guru devotion.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: PrajNa on October 28, 2018, 03:59:03 AM
How does giving up the practice given by the guru make a center pure and clean? To begin with, the center is founded by a Dorje Shugden lama, the donations to build the center came from Dorje Shugden practitioners. Everything FPMT has now now was the result of the great effort put in by Dorje Shugden practitioners.

The teachings they have received are from Dorje Shugden lamas. The fact that the FPMT or Lama Zopa has given up Dorje Shugden practice does not make FPMT or Lama Yeshe clean because all the knowledge Lama Yeshe has, came from Dorje Shugden lamas. If he continues to spread Dharma, which was passed down to him by a Dorje Shugden lama, does it mean he is not teaching pure Dharma since Dorje Shugden is equivalent to impurity? How is it possible an impure monk like Lama Yeshe can give pure teaching?

If FPMT's teachings are pure, it means what Lama Yeshe has taught Lama Zopa was pure. If the teachings of Lama Yeshe were pure, it means Lama Yeshe was pure. If Lama Yeshe was pure it means Dorje Shugden is pure! It cannot be everything about Lama Yeshe is pure except for the Dorje Shugden practice. All gurus are perfect, how can Lama Yeshe have faults? FPMT really have to look at their own logic.

This is so true. If a Lama is still alive and gave up Dorje Shugden practice, then perhaps he can be considered "pure" now. But Lama Yeshe and many other Dorje Shugden lamas who taught at FPMT has passed away, so how can they be pure if they didn't give up Dorje Shugden before they passed away? Hence Lama Yeshe is not pure. "Pure" in Dharamsala's term is someone who now renounce Dorje Shugden.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: fruven on October 30, 2018, 02:57:43 PM
It happens many years ago. A monk Kopan monastery secretly went to Phelgye Ling monastery to request Dorje Shugden puja for Lama Zopa's health.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Alex on October 30, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
It happens many years ago. A monk Kopan monastery secretly went to Phelgye Ling monastery to request Dorje Shugden puja for Lama Zopa's health.

This is interesting to know. Even though those monks who abandoned this protector practice, deep down they know what is the true nature of Dorje Shugden. During the darkest hour, they will seek this Protector's help instead of doing other protector Pujas. They know that Dorje Shugden will definitely help and his puja is the most effective among all the protectors because of his karma is the strongest with us.

The reason they abandon the practice is their own personal reasons and it is not because Dorje Shugden is a demon. Most of the people who give up the practice chose the eight worldly dharmas over their protector. Some even broke their samaya just to be politically correct just like FPMT students.

There is another possibility for why the monk requested a Dorje Shugden puja for Lama Zopa could be Lama Zopa himself was the one who wanted it? It is possible that Lama Zopa knew that at that time only Dorje Shugden can help him and so he sent someone to request the puja at Phelgyeling Monastery. Now we know, Dorje Shugden remains as the beacon of hope even for those who had abandoned him when the darkest hours comes.


Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on October 30, 2018, 08:52:27 PM
Maybe just maybe some Tulku could just make Dorje Shugden a YIDAM.

Our efforts should be about making Dorje Shugden a YIDAM an not what Lama Zopa is or is not doing.

Make Dorje Shugden a YIDAM!!!!

Who cares what the CTA and Dalai Lama would say about it they HATE US!!!
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: dsnowlion on October 30, 2018, 10:58:38 PM
It happens many years ago. A monk Kopan monastery secretly went to Phelgye Ling monastery to request Dorje Shugden puja for Lama Zopa's health.

This is interesting to know. Even though those monks who abandoned this protector practice, deep down they know what is the true nature of Dorje Shugden. During the darkest hour, they will seek this Protector's help instead of doing other protector Pujas. They know that Dorje Shugden will definitely help and his puja is the most effective among all the protectors because of his karma is the strongest with us.

The reason they abandon the practice is their own personal reasons and it is not because Dorje Shugden is a demon. Most of the people who give up the practice chose the eight worldly dharmas over their protector. Some even broke their samaya just to be politically correct just like FPMT students.

There is another possibility for why the monk requested a Dorje Shugden puja for Lama Zopa could be Lama Zopa himself was the one who wanted it? It is possible that Lama Zopa knew that at that time only Dorje Shugden can help him and so he sent someone to request the puja at Phelgyeling Monastery. Now we know, Dorje Shugden remains as the beacon of hope even for those who had abandoned him when the darkest hours comes.

You are right Alex... Dorje Shugden never abandons anyone. It is us who abandon him when we choose to act out our negative ways. And if he cannot assist or help us, it is not his fault but more of ours as we create the negative karma for him to be able to reach out to us. Like a dark veil covering his eyes literally is what the senior monks tell us. This is why when the protector comes and take trance in an oracle, you see him constantly wiping his face. Actually what he is doing is wiping away our accumulated negative karma.

So whatever negative karma that would ripen upon us, it is not due to giving up on Dorje Shugden, it is not Dorje Shugden punishing us, but more we who severed his hand from helping us that holds back our negative karma. So once that hand is gone, all the negative karma comes pouring in. The floodgates of karma are opened, hence we experience all the negative things which we would have experienced in our life but did not because of him, comes crashing down in a huge snowball. So, of course, it is going to appear like a huge avalanche coming down on us. Therefore we should not ask why or blame Dorje Shugden when that happens. Those who does clearly did not learn or believe in Dharma.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Tracy on November 16, 2018, 12:30:58 PM
Lama Zopa was recognised by Dorje Shugden! http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/who-made-lama-zopa-a-rinpoche/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/who-made-lama-zopa-a-rinpoche/)

Dorje Shugden is very well-known for his clairvoyance and the accuracy of his prophecy. Many people ask him for advice through the Oracle and his advice really works if we follow through. Don't forget he was the one who guided the Dalai Lama to escape from Tibet. When the reincarnation of a high lama is found, he will also be asked to confirm the recognition.

I am not surprised Lama Zopa was also recognised by Dorje Shugden. At the time when there was no ban, it was only natural to seek an audience with Dorje Shugden to ask for his confirmation. His endorsement is so reliable that no one will question that.

Lama Zopa dare not deny he was recognised by Dorje Shugden. If he denies it, it means he is not a Tulku. However, since he is not denying it, he is saying Dorje Shugden is right! If that is the case, how can he say Dorje Shugden is a spirit? Why did he go against his beloved guru, Lama Yeshe and said his guru was wrong?
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Drolma on December 31, 2018, 07:21:26 AM
When is Lama Osel going back to FPMT? Lama Zopa is quite old now and after his stroke, he does not look so well. At his age, he should retire and stop travelling.

At the moment, Lama Zopa seems to be the only highly qualified and famous lama in FPMT. There is no other teacher in FPMT as famous as he is. If Lama Zopa and the Dalai Lama pass away, what would happen to FPMT if Lama Osel does not want to go back to lead the center?

The students should realise that there should always be a highly qualified teacher in the center especially for an organisation as big as FPMT. They should quickly repair their samaya with Lama Osel to create the cause and generate merits to have him back. Lama Osel's previous life was a great teacher, if the condition is conducive, I believe he can also be as successful as his previous life even though he has disrobed now.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Alex on January 10, 2019, 10:09:09 AM
When is Lama Osel going back to FPMT? Lama Zopa is quite old now and after his stroke, he does not look so well. At his age, he should retire and stop travelling.

At the moment, Lama Zopa seems to be the only highly qualified and famous lama in FPMT. There is no other teacher in FPMT as famous as he is. If Lama Zopa and the Dalai Lama pass away, what would happen to FPMT if Lama Osel does not want to go back to lead the center?

The students should realise that there should always be a highly qualified teacher in the center especially for an organisation as big as FPMT. They should quickly repair their samaya with Lama Osel to create the cause and generate merits to have him back. Lama Osel's previous life was a great teacher, if the condition is conducive, I believe he can also be as successful as his previous life even though he has disrobed now.

Lama Osel has to go back to FPMT or the fate of FPMT will not be pretty at all. Without their spiritual guide, the centre will probably not be as good as before. All of these are a direct result of their broken samaya with Lama Yeshe. The centre chose to give up Dorje Shugden practice which is one of Lama Yeshe main protector practice.

Lama Yeshe had repeatedly told everyone that he accredited the success of his centres to Dorje Shugden because without Dorje Shugden FPMT will not be as big as it is today. Hence, when the students chose to give up a practice that was given by Lama Yeshe without his permission will be breaking their Guru samaya. Just to be politically correct and not being outcasted, FPMT chooses to break their samaya with Lama Yeshe which is stupid.

Now that Lama Osel is no longer a monk and start to be more interested in secular life, FPMT will lose their spiritual guide if they do not mend their samaya quickly. A dharma centre that has broken samaya with their spiritual guide is a centre that has no blessings from all the lineage lamas. Whatever activity that is being done at the centre will not bear fruit.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: mountains on January 10, 2019, 04:04:44 PM
FPMT likes to criticize other dharma centres for practicing Dorje Shugden. Their founding teacher Lama Yeshe was a Dorje Shugden practitioner till the end. Yet by right, they should abandon him but they instead make statues of him and place on their shrines? What do you call that?
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Tracy on January 10, 2019, 04:33:02 PM
I wonder what is the plan of FPMT when Lama Zopa is not around anymore. At the moment, Lama Zopa is the only 'brand' FPMT has to attract sponsors and students. No other lama in FPMT has a reputation comparable to Lama Zopa.

The only way FPMT can maintain its reputation, sponsors and students will be the coming back of Lama Osel, whose previous life founded FPMT. Unfortunately, due to the broken Samaya of the students, Lama Osel chose to disrobe and live as a layperson. He is not so much involved in the teaching scene.

However, if the students repair their Samaya with Lama Osel and create harmony in their center, there is a chance Lama Osel will still come back to FPMT and continue to turn the wheel of Dharma. The first thing FPMT has to do is to stop discriminating Dorje Shugden practitioners and stop spreading false negative news about Dorje Shugden. They should always remember the manifestation of FPMT is through the assistance and blessings of Dorje Shugden.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Alex on February 19, 2019, 06:44:15 PM
I wonder what is the plan of FPMT when Lama Zopa is not around anymore. At the moment, Lama Zopa is the only 'brand' FPMT has to attract sponsors and students. No other lama in FPMT has a reputation comparable to Lama Zopa.

The only way FPMT can maintain its reputation, sponsors and students will be the coming back of Lama Osel, whose previous life founded FPMT. Unfortunately, due to the broken Samaya of the students, Lama Osel chose to disrobe and live as a layperson. He is not so much involved in the teaching scene.

However, if the students repair their Samaya with Lama Osel and create harmony in their center, there is a chance Lama Osel will still come back to FPMT and continue to turn the wheel of Dharma. The first thing FPMT has to do is to stop discriminating Dorje Shugden practitioners and stop spreading false negative news about Dorje Shugden. They should always remember the manifestation of FPMT is through the assistance and blessings of Dorje Shugden.

This is very weird to see FPMT still keeping images of their founder Lama Yeshe when they decided to abandon the Dorje Shugden practice that he gave them and aligned with His Holiness the Dalai Lama. They are condemning Dorje Shugden practitioners to be a spirit worshipping and not to have anything to do with them.

However, they tend to forget that their founder, Lama Yeshe is a huge Dorje Shugden practitioners and he is unfit to be worshipped since he is a spirit worshipper which is against the law of Lord Buddha. Not to mention that all their teachings that they got including the vows of those ordained people came from this spirit worshipping lama.

If that is the case, then all of their dharma and vows will be invalid and they need to get them from a proper lama again. But obviously, they do not want to do that because the whole FPMT will be in a deep mess since everything they have will be invalidated. 
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: pemachen on February 20, 2019, 12:00:29 PM

However, they tend to forget that their founder, Lama Yeshe is a huge Dorje Shugden practitioners and he is unfit to be worshipped since he is a spirit worshipper which is against the law of Lord Buddha. Not to mention that all their teachings that they got including the vows of those ordained people came from this spirit worshipping lama.

If that is the case, then all of their dharma and vows will be invalid and they need to get them from a proper lama again. But obviously, they do not want to do that because the whole FPMT will be in a deep mess since everything they have will be invalidated.

Lama Yeshe is not clean. He passed away as a Dorje Shugden practitioner. So how is he clean?  IF they so want to follow the Dalai Lama's advice, then don't associate with Lama Yeshe. So all of Lama Yeshe's teachings, initiations, empowerments, blessings, all are invalid because he is a demon worshipper. Lama Osel is fake because all Dorje Shugden practitioners go to the lower realm because they broke their refuge vows.

Isn't that the "fact" that the CTA has been promoting and telling the Tibetans? Why aren't the Tibetans protesting in front of FPMT centres and asking them to stop going against the Dalai Lama?

Why aren't FPMT people removing all the statues, teachings, books of a Dorje Shugden lama, and now promoting the "fake" reincarnation of Lama Yeshe?  8)
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Tracy on February 22, 2019, 07:30:48 AM
Those who give up Dorje Shugden practice just want an easy life and be in the good book of the Dalai Lama. What they have studied in the monastery or from their teacher, they don't remember or practice it. Guru devotion is fundamental in Vajrayana practice but yet people or organisation like FPMT betrayed their teacher.

The students in FPMT conveniently agree with the CTA that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, but they have forgotten their founder, Lama Yeshe was a strong practitioner of Dorje Shugden and he was very devoted to Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden has assisted him in establishing the centre and everything that he needed to spread Dharma. The students in FPMT are very ungrateful, they despise Dorje Shugden but at the same time using the resources provided by Dorje Shugden.

If Dorje Shugden practitioners will all go the hell and never be able to come back in a human form, how come FPMT is able to find the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe? Shouldn't Lama Yeshe be born in hell already? Or Lama Osel is not the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe but someone else?  Time for the students in FPMT to wake up and face the reality!
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Alex on February 22, 2019, 04:41:09 PM
Those who give up Dorje Shugden practice just want an easy life and be in the good book of the Dalai Lama. What they have studied in the monastery or from their teacher, they don't remember or practice it. Guru devotion is fundamental in Vajrayana practice but yet people or organisation like FPMT betrayed their teacher.

The students in FPMT conveniently agree with the CTA that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, but they have forgotten their founder, Lama Yeshe was a strong practitioner of Dorje Shugden and he was very devoted to Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden has assisted him in establishing the centre and everything that he needed to spread Dharma. The students in FPMT are very ungrateful, they despise Dorje Shugden but at the same time using the resources provided by Dorje Shugden.

If Dorje Shugden practitioners will all go the hell and never be able to come back in a human form, how come FPMT is able to find the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe? Shouldn't Lama Yeshe be born in hell already? Or Lama Osel is not the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe but someone else?  Time for the students in FPMT to wake up and face the reality!

It is funny how those who are against Dorje Shugden are being such a hypocrite. FPMT know very well that their guru Lama Yeshe is a very strong and powerful Dorje Shugden lama before he passed away. So logically, Lama Yeshe would have gone down to the three lower realms and not be reborn as a human.

Why FPMT would ask His Holiness the Dalai Lama to recognize Lama Osel as the reincarnation of the beloved master? Is Lama Osel the real incarnation of Lama Yeshe? If he is the real one, the allegations against Dorje Shugden will be fake and untrue. So FPMT students are abandoning a genuine and powerful practice to be seen as on the same line with His Holiness the Dalai Lama?

So they are abandoning the practice that their Guru gave them just to be politically correct? Are they nuts? It is equal to abandoning their spiritual practice once and for all! There will be no blessings or attainments for them and they will not get any where by pretending to be practicing.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Drolma on February 24, 2019, 11:29:12 AM
The Dorje Shugden ban really reveals who is the real practitioner and who is not. It is quite shocking to know so many monks who have learned Buddhism for years do not understand what guru devotion is. Or perhaps it is because we are in the denegerate time that most people don't have the wisdom to understand what guru devotion is.

Lama Yeshe was a very attained Buddhist master, he was one of the pioneers who went to the west to spread Dharma. Most of his bigger sponsors were also westerners. It was a pity Lama Yeshe passed away at such a young age, perhaps his students didn't have enough merits to keep him with them. The students had the chance to have Lama Yeshe's reincarnation back in the centre again but they lost the chance by breaking their Samaya with their lama when they gave up Dorje Shugden practice.

So what is the point of putting up a Lama Yeshe's statue and venerating the statue when they cannot even convince the reincarnation to come back as the spiritual head in FPMT? Unless they think Lama Osel is not the real incarnation of their teacher? A real person can give instruction and advice, why are the students not trying to get Lama Osel back? If Lama Zopa is not around anymore, who is going to lead FPMT and be the spokesperson of the centre to raise fund?
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Tracy on February 26, 2019, 03:15:37 PM
The Dorje Shugden ban really reveals who is the real practitioner and who is not. It is quite shocking to know so many monks who have learned Buddhism for years do not understand what guru devotion is. Or perhaps it is because we are in the denegerate time that most people don't have the wisdom to understand what guru devotion is.

Lama Yeshe was a very attained Buddhist master, he was one of the pioneers who went to the west to spread Dharma. Most of his bigger sponsors were also westerners. It was a pity Lama Yeshe passed away at such a young age, perhaps his students didn't have enough merits to keep him with them. The students had the chance to have Lama Yeshe's reincarnation back in the centre again but they lost the chance by breaking their Samaya with their lama when they gave up Dorje Shugden practice.

So what is the point of putting up a Lama Yeshe's statue and venerating the statue when they cannot even convince the reincarnation to come back as the spiritual head in FPMT? Unless they think Lama Osel is not the real incarnation of their teacher? A real person can give instruction and advice, why are the students not trying to get Lama Osel back? If Lama Zopa is not around anymore, who is going to lead FPMT and be the spokesperson of the centre to raise fund?

This is so true, because of the ban, we see who are the good practitioners and who are not. A real practitioner will not criticise a practice because a Buddhist should be tolerant of differences. A real practitioner will not abandon the practice given to her/him by their teacher because they understand that all attainment comes from the guru!

It is so sad that Lama Yeshe's students gave up Dorje Shugden practice after he passed away. Lama Yeshe held Dorje Shugden practice very close to his heart but his student abandoned it. Lama Zopa was the heart son of Lama Yeshe, how can Lama Zopa abandon Lama Yeshe and so he can be on the Dalai Lama's good book? Is Lama Zopa trying to tell people Lama Yeshe is not good enough?

Since Lama Zopa has abandoned Dorje Shugden practice and Lama Yeshe, why installed Lama Yeshe's statue in the centre? What is the point? If Lama Zopa really loves Lama Yeshe and he really respects Lama Yeshe, why did he abandon Dorje Shugden practice?
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Drolma on April 23, 2019, 09:13:16 PM
FPMT is a very bad example of a Vajrayana student. As mentioned in the 50 Stanzas of Guru Devotion, all attainment comes from our guru. Therefore, we have to follow the instructions of our guru and never go against it. That includes not giving up the practice given to us by our guru.

As everyone knows Lama Yeshe was a very devoted Dorje Shugden practitioner. He propitiated Dorje Shugden regularly. Whenever he needs help, he would also ask Dorje Shugden for help. The manifestation of Kopan Monastery was mainly due to Dorje Shugden's kind assistance.

Unfortunately, after Lama Yeshe passed away, students in FMPT chose to give up Dorje Shugden practice just to be politically correct and be in the good book of the Dalai Lama. They have forgotten the kindness of their guru. It is very hypocritical of them to keep the statue of Lama Yeshe on the shrine and then gave up the precious practice given to them by Lama Yeshe.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Tenzin K on April 24, 2019, 04:03:12 PM
It’s contradicting that FPMT, on one hand, keeps condemning Lama, organization or people that practice Dorje Shugden but their founder Lama Yeshe is a Dorje Shugden practitioner himself. So since FPMT had decided to be in the good book of the Dalai Lama then why still keep the statue of Lama Yeshe?

I can only think of a reason which is any Buddhism school has a lineage. It’s through the lineage master that give the blessing that the practitioners gain attainment. So for FPMT, they can’t just delete from Lama Yeshe as elsewhere is FPMT originated? It can be suddenly pop up nowhere but by keeping Lama Yeshe it shows that FPMT has a root guru and they have an unbroken lineage.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Alex on April 30, 2019, 11:34:24 AM
FPMT is a very bad example of a Vajrayana student. As mentioned in the 50 Stanzas of Guru Devotion, all attainment comes from our guru. Therefore, we have to follow the instructions of our guru and never go against it. That includes not giving up the practice given to us by our guru.

As everyone knows Lama Yeshe was a very devoted Dorje Shugden practitioner. He propitiated Dorje Shugden regularly. Whenever he needs help, he would also ask Dorje Shugden for help. The manifestation of Kopan Monastery was mainly due to Dorje Shugden's kind assistance.

Unfortunately, after Lama Yeshe passed away, students in FMPT chose to give up Dorje Shugden practice just to be politically correct and be in the good book of the Dalai Lama. They have forgotten the kindness of their guru. It is very hypocritical of them to keep the statue of Lama Yeshe on the shrine and then gave up the precious practice given to them by Lama Yeshe.

It is bizarre for FPMT to keep Lama Yeshe statue on their shrine when they broke their samaya by giving up the precious Dorje Shugden practice that was given by their guru, Lama Yeshe. It does not make sense for a student to only accept one part of the guru's teaching but not the other part.

On top of that, they are calling Dorje Shugden practitioner as demon worshippers and little did they know, they are calling Lama Yeshe a demon worshipper since he is a strong Dorje Shugden practitioner himself. Since FPMT is founded by Lama Yeshe, that makes them a demon-worshipping centre naturally since the founder practices demon worshipping.

Hence, what FPMT is doing now is not logical and they are only doing it for their own benefit. When they do that, they have broken their samaya with their guru and the lineage blessings are gone. Whatever spiritual practices done in the centres will have no blessings from the lineage masters.
Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Tenzin K on May 01, 2019, 06:18:33 PM
Actually its good question!
Lama Yeshe which is the founder of FPMT and also practices Dorje Shugden.
But after his passing, his successor follows the Dalai Lama instructed I agree that the Tibetans inside could be easier to be manipulated because of the situation and condition will be pretty much tense compare to outside. By saying so it’s wrong also to encourage self-immolation and that is what the Tibetan leadership is encouraging because of every time if there are people sacrificing themselves that will be seen as an opportunity to raise fund. Tibetan leadership always use the sympathy card to seek for fund but this type of sympathy is too much. No one should take anyone advantage especially a dead a person. By right the Tibetan leadership should call for a stop for this. Why they can implement Shugden ban all the way and willing to spend so much resources but for a non-beneficial cause?

In fact, Tibetan leadership should move all the attention and resources to curb self-immolation aggressively. No one should be I agree that the Tibetans inside could be easier to be manipulate because of the situation and condition will be pretty much tense compare to outside. By saying so it’s wrong also to encourage self-immolation and that is what the Tibetan leadership is encouraging because every time if there are people sacrificing themselves that will be seen as an opportunity to raise fund. Tibetan leadership always use the sympathy card to seek for the fund but this type of sympathy is too much. No one should take anyone advantage especially a dead a person. By right the Tibetan leadership should call for a stop for this. Why they can implement Shugden ban all the way and willing to spend so many resources but for a non-beneficial cause.

Any leader with compassion will not encourage their people to die and for this case to die for nothing.
 for this and Tibetan leadership should strongly put a stop on this. Self-immolation does not work. If it’s effective, it would already take off but why until today Tibetan-in-exile still in India for the past 60 years?

Any leader with compassion will not encourage their people to die and for this case to die for nothing.

Title: Re: Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?
Post by: Tenzin K on May 01, 2019, 06:29:23 PM
Actually its good question!
Lama Yeshe which is the founder of FPMT and also practices Dorje Shugden.
But after his passing, his successor follows the Dalai Lama instruction instead of holding strong and just follow Lama Yeshe. Since they have broken the Samaya with their Guru what is the point of having the statue of their Guru where I doubt there will be any blessing. Since there will be no blessing from the Guru,
how would they do their sadhana? no blessing from the lineage master? if really no, then what is the point of learning from the center without the blessing from the lineage master?