dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: honeydakini on February 14, 2010, 03:02:46 PM
-
I'm going to just blatantly cut & paste and plagarise DharmaDefender's post here because I think it's brilliant and totally sums up the heart of what, I believe, many of us would like to see happen more and more in the world. Thank you Dharma Defender for reminding us of yet another wonderful and very beautiful reason for being "here" and for our practice of DS. May Dorje Shugden's practice spread through the world and touch many, many beings hearts, lives, spiritual path and practice and bring them far in their attainments.
My point: let's not try and win over the people who already hate Dorje Shugden, and look at the millions of other people who have never heard of him. Many many people don't necessarily believe in the Dalai Lama or have a stance on the issue. Those people don't need to hear about the horridness / holiness of the Dalai Lama, they need to learn about Dorje Shugden. Cement their faith in Dorje Shugden's practice alone (i.e. without the politics) and no matter what anyone says, no one will be able to shake that faith. Nor will they criticise the Dalai Lama and the lamas who support the ban, because they don't know the politics...so either way, their karma, guru samaya and Dorje Shugden 'wins'!
-
Hear! Hear!
I have so many people I know who has no clue about this controversy because some are so new in Dharma or some don't even have a spiritual path. Some personally just don't care about anything but themselves. What Tibet or the Dalai Lama issue?? "I have my own problems to deal with please" is what I would probably get. They are ordinary people like you and me who first join the Dharma because we have some kind of seeking / problems that needed some urgent answers. They don't really give two hoods if the Dalai Lama is in town/good/bad. Their own problems is overwhelming and I know for sure Dorje Shugden can help them so much. They need Dharma so much. My only wish is that we can all practice openly and tell our friends who Dorje Shugden is, so they can get help and eventually practice Dharma to lessen their own suffering. How wonderful that would be :)
-
Your actions of promoting the good qualities of Dorje Shugden will be powerless for as long as the Dalai Lama is held to be a spiritual authority in this world. Most people will believe him, not you.
I'm afraid you're being naive. Without the WSS' actions to reduce the power of the Dalai Lama, you can't hope to succeed.
-
i quote from the guestbook entry by Thomas David Canada:
"When all the criticism started, I also heard Kache Marpo once say that we (our side) would never be able to find the financial resources to propagate the precious name of our protector throughout the world to an extent as it is happening now with the controversy. So he seemed quite happy about the 'publicity'. Nevertheless he also hinted, that in truely 'out-of-hand' circumstances of slander he would sometimes prefer to intervene with his sharp powers, but that Dorje Shugden is always binding him by obliging him to never do any harm to sentient beings."
I've been posting this liberally around the forum because it is so logical and it is said by the great King's Minister. I trust Dorje Shugden.
WSS has definitely helped to increase the spotlight on this controversy and highlighting the inconsistencies of the Dalai Lama, which have also been highlighted in TK's commentary (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1425). I don't think anyone disputes that there ARE inconsistencies. We are simply discussing the motivation behind the inconsistencies.
Whatever the motivation, the results are indisputable - that is that Dorje Shugden practice is well known in the world. As 'A Great Deception' has listed - the newspapers and magazines and TV coverage of this controversy is huge and definitely, no PR campaign would have been able to create publicity of this magnitude.
-
i quote from the guestbook entry by Thomas David Canada:
"When all the criticism started, I also heard Kache Marpo once say that we (our side) would never be able to find the financial resources to propagate the precious name of our protector throughout the world to an extent as it is happening now with the controversy. So he seemed quite happy about the 'publicity'. Nevertheless he also hinted, that in truely 'out-of-hand' circumstances of slander he would sometimes prefer to intervene with his sharp powers, but that Dorje Shugden is always binding him by obliging him to never do any harm to sentient beings."
I've been posting this liberally around the forum because it is so logical and it is said by the great King's Minister. I trust Dorje Shugden.
WSS has definitely helped to increase the spotlight on this controversy and highlighting the inconsistencies of the Dalai Lama, which have also been highlighted in TK's commentary ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1425[/url]). I don't think anyone disputes that there ARE inconsistencies. We are simply discussing the motivation behind the inconsistencies.
Whatever the motivation, the results are indisputable - that is that Dorje Shugden practice is well known in the world. As 'A Great Deception' has listed - the newspapers and magazines and TV coverage of this controversy is huge and definitely, no PR campaign would have been able to create publicity of this magnitude.
Hi WisdomB-
You just need to look a little closer at your own post to see what's taking place here.
You say "I trust Dorje Shugden," and I personally find that to be a lovely sentiment, but what are you really entrusting yourself to when you say that?
Thomas Canada, a man you have probably never even met, says on the internet, a place where people generally make up whatever they want to, that he heard Kache Marpo say....
You have not made any attempt to investigate this claim (at least here on the forum). How did this man hear this deity say this? In a vision? In a dream? In a psychotic episode? Through an oracle? If an oracle, how reliable? Are you quite sure it wasn't a malicious minor spirit intent on causing mayhem? There has been abundant evidence that oracles, even the MOST reliable ones, are notoriously inconsistent. (please not, I am not suggesting anything about Mr. Canada, I have no knowledge that he is unreliable, untruthful etc etc. rather I am trying to point out that you know very little about the source of your information. I am also happy to admit your point may be correct, but this is not the issue here)
So when you look honestly at what you are saying, I think it is "I trust what I read on the internet about what some people who I don't know may or may not have heard from someone who may or may not be reliable, or even existent, for that matter."
If you come over to another point of view, I think you can easily sympathize with those who don't find this to be a credible statement, but rather a statement about what you would like to be true. Moreover, you are "liberally" promoting this statement the provenence, and therefore the veracity of which is completely unknown to you.
I also strongly agree with Trinley Kelsang on the view that publicizing our protector (especially when such generally has him as an object of ridicule and derision) is not the point. Since when is publicity the goal of sincere Dharma practitioners, especially when this publicity destroys the faith of the world in our spiritual guides, lineage lamas and protectors?
We could probably start a big ballyhoo on line about the Dalai Lama being a pedophile, but would you be happy with that? well, it would bring publicity.....but first, it's not true. Secondly, this publicity is not necessary.
Same for our case.
The best publicity campaign is our sincere practice.
(I would like to make an earnest request at this point that you please consider not writing that this means we should not demonstrate, for many of us here this is our sincere practice, comes form a point of view of love, and has shown many many good results which were not acheived by other means. Thank you)
-
Hi WisdomB-
You just need to look a little closer at your own post to see what's taking place here.
You say "I trust Dorje Shugden," and I personally find that to be a lovely sentiment, but what are you really entrusting yourself to when you say that?
Thomas Canada, a man you have probably never even met, says on the internet, a place where people generally make up whatever they want to, that he heard Kache Marpo say....
You have not made any attempt to investigate this claim (at least here on the forum). How did this man hear this deity say this? In a vision? In a dream? In a psychotic episode? Through an oracle? If an oracle, how reliable? Are you quite sure it wasn't a malicious minor spirit intent on causing mayhem? There has been abundant evidence that oracles, even the MOST reliable ones, are notoriously inconsistent. (please not, I am not suggesting anything about Mr. Canada, I have no knowledge that he is unreliable, untruthful etc etc. rather I am trying to point out that you know very little about the source of your information. I am also happy to admit your point may be correct, but this is not the issue here)
So when you look honestly at what you are saying, I think it is "I trust what I read on the internet about what some people who I don't know may or may not have heard from someone who may or may not be reliable, or even existent, for that matter."
If you come over to another point of view, I think you can easily sympathize with those who don't find this to be a credible statement, but rather a statement about what you would like to be true. Moreover, you are "liberally" promoting this statement the provenence, and therefore the veracity of which is completely unknown to you.
I also strongly agree with Trinley Kelsang on the view that publicizing our protector (especially when such generally has him as an object of ridicule and derision) is not the point. Since when is publicity the goal of sincere Dharma practitioners, especially when this publicity destroys the faith of the world in our spiritual guides, lineage lamas and protectors?
We could probably start a big ballyhoo on line about the Dalai Lama being a pedophile, but would you be happy with that? well, it would bring publicity.....but first, it's not true. Secondly, this publicity is not necessary.
Same for our case.
The best publicity campaign is our sincere practice.
(I would like to make an earnest request at this point that you please consider not writing that this means we should not demonstrate, for many of us here this is our sincere practice, comes form a point of view of love, and has shown many many good results which were not acheived by other means. Thank you)
Hi Crazy Cloud,
To answer your questions :) when I say I trust Dorje Shugden, I mean that I have personally heard statements from Dorje Shugden via an oracle where he has said things which have been confirmed via different oracles at different times, who wouldn't have otherwise known what was said previously. Whether you (or anyone else) believe me doesn't really matter because this is personal and i have no wish to convince you of the veracity of what i believe :)
Likewise, when you said how do i trust Thomas David Canada, suffice to say that i have investigated and i do.
I do absolutely agree with you that sincere practice is the best publicity. However, without wishing to repeat ad nauseam that Kache Marpo has said that he is happy with the publicity from the controversy, I trust that there is a good reason why there is negative publicity for now.
Regarding your last point re not protesting - i have no intention of advising you not to protest :)
As publicity via the controversy is good for Dorje Shugden, then please protest away! And i also believe that your desire to demonstrate comes from your love for Dorje Shugden. We just show different ways of our love but we have the same goals and the same love.
Isn't that a great theme for valentine's day :)
Love
Kate :-*
-
Hi Crazy Cloud,
To answer your questions :) when I say I trust Dorje Shugden, I mean that I have personally heard statements from Dorje Shugden via an oracle where he has said things which have been confirmed via different oracles at different times, who wouldn't have otherwise known what was said previously. Whether you (or anyone else) believe me doesn't really matter because this is personal and i have no wish to convince you of the veracity of what i believe :)
fair enough.
Likewise, when you said how do i trust Thomas David Canada, suffice to say that i have investigated and i do.
he seems like a fine person. I'm glad.
Regarding your last point re not protesting - i have no intention of advising you not to protest :)
good on ya.
As publicity via the controversy is good for Dorje Shugden, then please protest away!
why thank you very much!
And i also believe that your desire to demonstrate comes from your love for Dorje Shugden. We just show different ways of our love but we have the same goals and the same love.
Isn't that a great theme for valentine's day :)
aw jeeez........
[/quote]
-
I also strongly agree with Trinley Kelsang on the view that publicizing our protector (especially when such generally has him as an object of ridicule and derision) is not the point. Since when is publicity the goal of sincere Dharma practitioners, especially when this publicity destroys the faith of the world in our spiritual guides, lineage lamas and protectors?
How can we judge if this publicity destroys the faith of the world in our spiritual guides, lineage lamas and protectors?
I think it is too much to assume this. I have come to know that many practitioners who upheld their promise to their spiritual guides and endure the hardship of this period of time as practice and a test of their commitment.
Whether or not it destroys the faith, we should see in the long run – only time can tell.
And why can’t publicity be the goal of sincere Dharma practitioners if it helps the world to get to know Dharma. Some people’s interests might not be stirred by the “oh-look-I-am-holy-Buddhist-pracitioner” approach, but perhaps a controversy might catch their attention to Dorje Shugden. Are you saying there’s only one method to promote the Dharma? Then why is it that dorje Shugden has to “die” in an unconventional way and become a protector instead of just promote Dharma by being the great Duldzin and a great lama? He can reincarnate many lifetimes as a great Guru. Why not? Obviously, different times requires different methods and different manifestation to ensure work is done to preserve Je Rinpoche’s teachings.
The best publicity campaign is our sincere practice.
I agree on this, more than anything else. There are many practitioners who had to endure discrimination and being exiled in their own community, and perhaps even physical harm because of this issue. Yet, many of them did not protest in their ROBES, shout at their spiritual leader and accuse him of many things.
Many people claim that Dalai Lama is not their Guru, but Dalai Lama is our LINEAGE GURU. Does it mean that I can be rude to Trijang Rinpoche just because he’s not my guru?
I think in justifying the rights to practice, some might have gone a bit too far. And for some people, especially those who live abroad and under the jurisdiction of the Tibetan government, WHO CAN STOP YOU FROM PRACTISING?
-
Excuse me but now you are advancing a new argument: that nobody can touch the Dalai Lama because he is your lineage Guru. In what way?
If an individual is a Dorje Shugden practitioner he cannot have the Dalai Lama as Guru in any way, whether he likes it or not. This is per the Dalai Lamas wishes. The Dalai Lama has cut samaya not only with our common Lineage Guru, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche his root Guru, the Dalai Lama has cut samaya with all of us, practitioners of Dorje Shugden. He does not want us.
So what is this theory, that you have him as Guru against his own will? Beyond the lack of any sense, speak now of disrespect!!! I think it is a disrespect to the Dalai Lama to try an distort what has been his proclaimed desire for years and years. This would be another first time in history: that one can be the disciple of a Guru against the will of the Guru.
And another first: that one proclaims onself the disciple of a Guru and proclaims to the world one is disobeying the Guru, and flaunts it!!! Because if the Dalai Lama is your Guru, there is no way around it: you are disobeying your Guru by practicing the Protector.
So you see, things are not easy. Things are not black and white. I didn´t say all of the previous to confuse your mind, you go and follow your personal Lama and forget about my words or anybody else´s words. But I wonder again, how can we go on discussing without offending those that are indeed following their Lamas? There is a lot of politics in this matter, and we are confusing it for Dharma. So there is unfortunately a lot of opportunity for breaking vows, for offending others.
I want to imitate TK and apologize to anybody that I might offend just by discussing these painful matters.
-
Excuse me but now you are advancing a new argument: that nobody can touch the Dalai Lama because he is your lineage Guru. In what way?
If an individual is a Dorje Shugden practitioner he cannot have the Dalai Lama as Guru in any way, whether he likes it or not. This is per the Dalai Lamas wishes. The Dalai Lama has cut samaya not only with our common Lineage Guru, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche his root Guru, the Dalai Lama has cut samaya with all of us, practitioners of Dorje Shugden. He does not want us.
So what is this theory, that you have him as Guru against his own will? Beyond the lack of any sense, speak now of disrespect!!! I think it is a disrespect to the Dalai Lama to try an distort what has been his proclaimed desire for years and years. This would be another first time in history: that one can be the disciple of a Guru against the will of the Guru.
And another first: that one proclaims onself the disciple of a Guru and proclaims to the world one is disobeying the Guru, and flaunts it!!! Because if the Dalai Lama is your Guru, there is no way around it: you are disobeying your Guru by practicing the Protector.
So you see, things are not easy. Things are not black and white. I didn´t say all of the previous to confuse your mind, you go and follow your personal Lama and forget about my words or anybody else´s words. But I wonder again, how can we go on discussing without offending those that are indeed following their Lamas? There is a lot of politics in this matter, and we are confusing it for Dharma. So there is unfortunately a lot of opportunity for breaking vows, for offending others.
I want to imitate TK and apologize to anybody that I might offend just by discussing these painful matters.
Following on from that, I have often thought about the dilemma of people who do actually have BOTH Dalai Lama as their Guru as well as another Lama(s) who is/are DS practitioners - who do you follow then? And either way you will break your samaya.
I do agree that what can be contradictory (and which TK does point out very eloquently in his 13 point article), is this very question of breaking samaya with our lineage Gurus. If say my Guru is LAMA X and his lineage of teachers date back to Dalai Lama, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabongkhapa Rinpoche... It is confusing if one (or any) of the Lamas suddenly say "this Practice of ABC" is wrong." If one practice is suddenly wrong, then what makes me so sure anymore that any of the other practices that have been passed down the lineage is also not wrong?
How do we "fix" the situation if one immediate Guru, Lama X says Practice ABC is good, but his immediate Guru above him, the Dalai Lama, says Practice ABC is bad? So who do you follow? If your Guru continues the practice against his Guru's wishes, he is technically "breaking samaya" too isn't it? So where does that leave the disciples who are taking teachings and practices from a teacher with broken samaya with his guru? It follows all the way down that lineage. A break in the transmissions from Guru to disciple messes up the whole thing. Don't the teachers also take a vow/commitment to also never abandon their own samaya to their Gurus as well as the connection with their students until enlightenment! So where does that leave the whole pantheon of teachers now stuck in this conundrum?
That said, as TK has pointed out, why would Dalai Lama or any of the Lamas set us up to fail in this way?! Inevitably, somehow, somewhere, our teachers and their teachers are connected to this lineage, which all seem to be contradicting each other "down the line" - some say a practice is good, some say a practice is bad. There is something way too fishy about the ban, in that it can't just be A Ban, the end. Because the ban in itself - if we look at how it has been proclaimed and the "logic" that has been put forth about it from those implementing the ban - it messes up one of the very pillars of our Refuge and Dharma - guru devotion, samaya.
Yes, i'd like to know - how do we get around all this then??
-
And either way you will break your samaya.
I cannot find the thread right now, but there was a great discussion on the fact that it was the Dalai Lama who broke his samaya with his disciples, not the other way around.
-
Honeydakini, sorry for asking, but is the DL the only Guru your Guru had? In general a few of our Lamas were direct disciples of Je Pabongkapa, and most of them were disciples of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Trijang Dorjechang, or in the younger generation, disciples of Tsong Rinpoche, Rabten Rinpoche, etc, etc.
Colaterally, because of the prominent activities of DL, they also were receiving different initiations from him. But mostly their root Guru was Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche or his direct disciples.
I don't know of any Lama that has only DL as Guru. This would be very strange case, particularly how would he have the practice of the holy Protector? This is not possible.
So, by inference I can assume that your Lama had another Guru, the one who gave him the Protector's practice. If that is the case, your Lama is not cut from our holy lineage, because surely he would have received it through the Lama who gave him the Protector. What I mean is that he definitely has the conexion with our lineage, through this initiation.
For the other initiations, the ones that he got from DL, he probably should receive them again from a Lama that didn't break samaya with his own root Guru. But in any case, as Emptimountains was saying, it is not him that broke samaya with DL, it's DL that broke samaya with him as disciple. I understand that he still wants to show respect, but he didn't abandon that Lama, rather the Lama abandoned him.
So it is not true that by following the advice of his Lama who gave him the Protector he would be no matter what breaking samaya with somebody. I respect his courage of following the Lama who gave him the Protector, and his decent behaviour of trying to respect the Lama that broke away from him.
No matter what please don't let your faith in your Lama be shaken by our discussions.
-
No matter what please don't let your faith in your Lama be shaken by our discussions.[/color]
What excellent advice. I totally agree. Thank you for helping.
-
No matter what please don't let your faith in your Lama be shaken by our discussions.[/color]
What excellent advice. I totally agree. Thank you for helping.
absolutely - i second tk's endorsement of a friend's most important point: never lose faith in your Guru for following his holy lineage and relying on his own holy Gurus. if one of his own Lamas breaks samaya with him and abandons his own lineage Gurus then that Lama has lost his qualification - he is no longer suitable to be relied upon as a lineage Guru and his former disciples would do well to stop relying on this unqualified person. but it appears that your Lama has not abandoned his lineage or broken his samaya with his valid and qualified lineage Gurus, and so you can rely on him wholeheartedly.
the Dalai Lama has cast himself adrift and is sinking under his own power. we must try out of compassion to help him - by administering strong medicine, as is now necessary (to mix metaphors!) - but we do not need to go down with him.
-
Honeydakini, sorry for asking, but is the DL the only Guru your Guru had? In general a few of our Lamas were direct disciples of Je Pabongkapa, and most of them were disciples of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Trijang Dorjechang, or in the younger generation, disciples of Tsong Rinpoche, Rabten Rinpoche, etc, etc.
Colaterally, because of the prominent activities of DL, they also were receiving different initiations from him. But mostly their root Guru was Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche or his direct disciples.
I don't know of any Lama that has only DL as Guru. This would be very strange case, particularly how would he have the practice of the holy Protector? This is not possible.
So, by inference I can assume that your Lama had another Guru, the one who gave him the Protector's practice. If that is the case, your Lama is not cut from our holy lineage, because surely he would have received it through the Lama who gave him the Protector. What I mean is that he definitely has the conexion with our lineage, through this initiation.
For the other initiations, the ones that he got from DL, he probably should receive them again from a Lama that didn't break samaya with his own root Guru. But in any case, as Emptimountains was saying, it is not him that broke samaya with DL, it's DL that broke samaya with him as disciple. I understand that he still wants to show respect, but he didn't abandon that Lama, rather the Lama abandoned him.
So it is not true that by following the advice of his Lama who gave him the Protector he would be no matter what breaking samaya with somebody. Only thing I would do if I were him is to stop saying that he is the DL's disciple, because he's not. If he practices the Protector he is not the DL's disciple, whether he likes it or not.
I respect his courage of following the Lama who gave him the Protector, and his decent behaviour of trying to respect the Lama that broke away from him.
No matter what please don't let your faith in your Lama be shaken by our discussions.
How does a Lama break samaya with a disciple?
And I have a hypothetical question: If one has many Lamas, one of which is the Dalai Lama and some of his Lamas are openly practising, some have given up the practice and some are practising in secret while having sworn in at the monastery? Each Lama is showing a different example.
-
How? In a general way I cannot answer. In the specific case of DL, well, just listen to him.
He knew that among the Protector´s people there were a lot that had received teachings from him, that were his disciples. Knowing this, specifically he forbad any contact of any kind with them, not even of material necessities nor mundane human contact, let alone Dharma contact.
That is spelled: to break samaya with the disciple. To abandon the disciple. No mistery here.
Samaya is a relashionship, it cannot exist with one member only. It´s a bond between Guru and disciple. Once the bond is severed, it´s severed, cut, finished, gone, disappeared. It´s similar to a pregnant woman: you cannot have a woman that is "a little bit pregnant". If there are two, she and the child inside, no matter his size, then she is pregnant. If there is she alone, then she is no pregnant at all, period. In the same way, you cannot have a samaya that runs on its own from the side of the Guru alone or from the side of the disciple alone. If one is missing, no samaya.
-
No matter what please don't let your faith in your Lama be shaken by our discussions.[/color]
Thank you for saying this. I too believe in never giving up faith in our Lamas and it is very inspiring to see so many people sharing this same view (because we sure have many many people who drop their Lamas, including OUR OWN LAMAS, at the snap of a finger).
i appreciate also your points about DL not being the only Guru, and therefore that the samaya/lineage is not cut as the lama would still have his samaya in tact with his other lamas who conferred the protector practice onto him.
I'm still ruminating though, on how to reconcile a situation if a person has BOTH a DS Lama and Dalai Lama as their Lama. Who do you listen to then? I mean
- if you give up your DS practice, you break samaya with your Guru who gave you the practice
- if you continue the practice, you break samaya with the Dalai Lama. For many, this is the predicament they are in and they do not wish to forsake or give up either because they do love and still and have faith in both.
So do you just sit on the fence then? Pretend that you're not doing the practice but you continue to do? Just keep quiet and not say anything at all? I'm not trying to argue, but would sincerely like to know: what does one do?! How can one keep practising?
And again, why would the Dalai Lama allow so many practitioners in this predicament to "fail?"
I still hold that it cannot just be an arbritary "changing of minds" that is causing the whole basis of practice - which is this question of samaya - to crumble. Something must be clanging away in the background, for which something is being sacrificed and suffered right now for it to open up and arise bigger and better later. I'm sorry if this sounds naive, but I just cannot bring myself - and do not wish - to believe that the lamas would set us up to fail like this.
-
Sorry Dulzin I didn´t answer the second "hipothetical" question.
If I were the one with that variety of Lamas, the surest thing for me to do would be the following: go and ask the advice of those who are openly practicing.
I know some people are in that case. It´s really very difficult. One thing I would like to remind all the disciples is: please do not feel bad, you are not the ones who created this. Of course, there is our collective karma, but that is true too for the earthquake in Haiti and anything happening in our planet, we are all related and one way or another we share in different degrees a common karma. But specifically, you are not responsible for this confusion, for this difficulty with the Lamas and the lineage and the samayas and the whole enchilada, you are not the direct creators of this, so if there are mistakes, don´t worry too much, just keep your good heart, cultivate your bodhicitta, everything is going to be ok.
-
Honeydakini, I have to ponder more to answer you. Maybe in the meantime what I just said to Dulzin is what I could say to you too. With love, a F
-
.........I'm not trying to argue, but would sincerely like to know: what does one do?! How can one keep practising?
And again, why would the Dalai Lama allow so many practitioners in this predicament to "fail?"
I still hold that it cannot just be an arbritary "changing of minds" that is causing the whole basis of practice - which is this question of samaya - to crumble. Something must be clanging away in the background, for which something is being sacrificed and suffered right now for it to open up and arise bigger and better later. I'm sorry if this sounds naive, but I just cannot bring myself - and do not wish - to believe that the lamas would set us up to fail like this.
As for the personal practice, this issue has to be resolved by the individual himself or herself. Preferrably with his or her own Lama. (Dalai might be unavailable for discussion to the most of his 'disciples', but he has been very explicit in his general public statements that no DS-practitioners are allowed amongst his students. That is generally known. You can make your own conclusions from that fact.
As for the situation in general, that, indeed, is unknown, where the future is concerned. There is no Big Picture. There are some who say that there is a some sort of orchestrated beneficial purpose and a wonderful outcome with all this, but they do not know any such Great Plan, since they are merely guessing and hoping out of desperation. The source of that desperation lies in believing that there is some sort of Cosmic Plan, made by all these nicey Buddhas. But sadly for the existence or rather validity of those naive ideas (as you called them), there is no Buddhist teleology. There is no God's Plan, but just the slow slippage into the hellish Kali-Yuga. The Gurus, Lamas, or the Buddhas, have not made any genious or devious pact whereby we might find the bliss of nirvana. They have merely pointed the Way. You yourself have to walk the walk; and whether the Dalai curses you or blesses you, it makes no difference, since the walk is the same. The pointers and guide-posts of the walk, or the path, can be found in the Dharma. Not in the declarations of the Dalai. But in the Dharma. (The only reason some of us yap yap to Dalai is that his declarations make the Dharma inaccessible to many people.)
So you see, nobody, no High Lama, no Super Guru, is setting you or anybody else up. You do not need to believe in a teleological idea, which is a non-buddhist anyways, right from the beginning, nor do you need to believe in the Master Plan of the big honchos, since all you will ever get from Buddhism is the Dharma, which acts merely as the 'compass to be used on your path'. All you need to ask is, that "will you make the walk?"
-
I thought this thread is solely about promoting Dorje Shugden...
Anyway, I think Dorje Shugden is extremely real and close to me although I can't see him. He seemed to answer all my distress 'black teas' when I need help the most. Somehow no matter how bad the situation is, he always manage to reverse it completely. He is so amazing for that! He had saved my job on so many occasions and even kind enough to settle my relationship problems. I know this sounds shallow but I have more faith in the Dharma and the existence of Buddhas because of Dorje Shugden.
Hence I am extremely excited to hear that he will become big one day because of the Dalai Lama's ban. I know this doesn't make sense to some but it makes perfect sense to me. Besides, the Dalai Lama can't do a thing or not how does NKT became so big while practising Dorje Shugden. To me, that is another proof of how powerful Dorje Shugden is in spreading the Dharma.
Hope what I said tied this thread back to its intended theme.
-
I thought this thread is solely about promoting Dorje Shugden...
Anyway, I think Dorje Shugden is extremely real and close to me although I can't see him. He seemed to answer all my distress 'black teas' when I need help the most. Somehow no matter how bad the situation is, he always manage to reverse it completely. He is so amazing for that! He had saved my job on so many occasions and even kind enough to settle my relationship problems. I know this sounds shallow but I have more faith in the Dharma and the existence of Buddhas because of Dorje Shugden.
I can relate to what you are expressing. Similar to how we cannot see our Guru's mind, we can see his compassionate words and works.
-
I thought this thread is solely about promoting Dorje Shugden...
Anyway, I think Dorje Shugden is extremely real and close to me although I can't see him. He seemed to answer all my distress 'black teas' when I need help the most. Somehow no matter how bad the situation is, he always manage to reverse it completely. He is so amazing for that! He had saved my job on so many occasions and even kind enough to settle my relationship problems. I know this sounds shallow but I have more faith in the Dharma and the existence of Buddhas because of Dorje Shugden.
Hence I am extremely excited to hear that he will become big one day because of the Dalai Lama's ban. I know this doesn't make sense to some but it makes perfect sense to me. Besides, the Dalai Lama can't do a thing or not how does NKT became so big while practising Dorje Shugden. To me, that is another proof of how powerful Dorje Shugden is in spreading the Dharma.
Hope what I said tied this thread back to its intended theme.
Of course you should - Dorje Shugden only helps when it benefits your dharma practice so I don't think asking for stuff like that is wrong or particularly mundane as long as the motivation behind it is, "May I gain what is necessary to benefit others". The fact that you now have more faith in the Dharma shows how effective Dorje Shugden has been, and that he has done his job well (as though there was ever any doubt that he wouldn't!)...he cleared the path for you to think about others :)
I'm going to be a little presumptuous in the following paragraph and I hope you don't take offence, it's just for me to get the point out! I hope you don't place your faith in Dorje Shugden simply because he helped you with your job, etc though because that makes for unstable dharma practice. My guru recently asked us to consider that if you serve the Dharma on the basis of your lama, what happens when your guru goes away? If you serve the Dharma on the basis of your lama, your Dharma practice will go up and down - on a good day, you'll see your lama as a living Buddha and follow his instructions faultlessly. On a bad day, your lama is the most horrible person on the planet pushing you to do things that make you feel uncomfortable, hurt you, upset you, etc.
I've always been taught (and it makes sense to me) that it is a baaaaaaaaaad idea if your dharma practice is based on something external, like the things that Dorje Shugden has done for you. Of course, showing gratitude is entirely valid and a great thing to do, but basing one's entire dharma practice on how you feel seems a little unsustainable to me.
-
RIP Dorje Shugden?
If anyone actually reads or thinks about the materials from the Tibetan government, they should know that in one of their articles they pronounced that Dorje Shugden was already killed. So what is the fuss? If he was already sent to a pure land, he can’t be a hungry ghost. Can His Holiness please clarify this?
“In 1669, the earth-bird year, activities to pacify the spirit were performed with the construction of a new house and the placing of (relevant) articles, but to no avail. In the beginning of 1674, the wood-tiger year, and 1675, the wood-rabbit year, two specifically targeted rituals were performed and finally, at the end of 1675, the wood-rabbit year, seven groups of practitioners performed fire rituals and destroyed it forever.”
“Likewise Rigzin Pema Thinley of Dorje Drag, Dharma King Terdag Lingpa, Vugja Lungpa, Drigung Tulku Rinpoche, Katshal Zurpa Ngari Konchok Lhundup and Palri Tulku performed the Wrathful Lama, Yamaraja, Phurba, Loktri practice for seven days, at the conclusion of which a fire-ritual was performed during which the ‘perfidious interfering spirit’ and his entourage were burnt. Everybody was convinced (of its success because of) the appearance of wonderful signs and the smell of burning flesh that everybody witnessed.”
Dorje Shugden – Why can’t they subdue him if they say he is just a spirit?
And why does His Holiness the Dalai Lama need to repeat his ‘warnings’ re Dorje Shugden so many times?
If Dorje Shugden truly was a demon and harmful, then His Holiness and other high Lamas should just subdue him through ritual. After all, Nechung is an evil spirit, subdued by Guru Rinpoche and bound to help. After being subdued, you don’t hear Guru Rinpoche warning us re him anymore. If Dorje Shugden cannot be subdued by His Holiness or High lamas, then he must be more powerful than the Dalai Lama?? Or he is enlightened. Think.
-
As Lord Buddha said, ultimately you have to be your own guide.
In regard to broken samyas, I can only say from my own experiences that dissolving seals or bonds can be a painful process to undo, that is from my side.
I deliberated to remove any books of his and burned anything else ever given, on a clear star lite night.
Having anything that reminded me of DL was removed or destroyed, including a microfilm with his prayers in a prayer wheel.
I do not keep relics of someone I consider a fraud and intentionally attacked me.
So Samayas, I think is a personal thing that each one of us must deliberate and decide how they keep people in their hearts.
I've seen too much up way close to delude myself that this man has my best intentions in mind and I think that includes everyone else. The Lamas can love the Dalia Lama, they are lamas! I do not see any evidence that he has practiced the dharma for a long, long time.
He is not worth all of this effort in my estimation. When will we cease to be surprised that in samsara, even a man steeped in medieval despotism and to his shame enslaved millions of people in servitude and ignorance, rise a beacon of democracy only serves to further infuriate me to witness his charades and what a fool he makes of himself and diminishes the integrity of Buddhism. Make no small thing out of what is occurring. This is an UNPRECEDENTED HISTORICAL EVENT UNFOLDING WITHHIN BUDDHISM.
Not since King 'whathisname' almost destroyed Buddhism, has Buddhism ever been so threatened from within. In the last instance Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche took care of business and shot the king with an arrow, hoping on his horse, he sped out of sight. Until I met him again, and he asked me to defend the Lineage. I said, Okay! What do we do?
So, How about you?
I do not intend for his character assasination of Lord Shugden and therefore all of us, to Stand In the East and Certainly Not In the West. Where if he wants to play the televangilist popularity poll.
I will not Stand For It!
Till the end of his day or his recanting.
I for one will pursue him and do what I can to undermine him and ridicule his statements
Resolution within One's Self Requires Committment!
Monks and Lamas have reconstituted in many places and flourish in others with promise of continuance, if we all perervere and understand the bond. Then all will be well and we can be as one.
Do not discount the so-called political events with the Panchen Lama in China's Tibet or TibetanChina.
It extends the affirmation of the United Nations Mandate that All of Us Can Practice Our Beliefs Unmolested by Anyone, including governments and despots.
The events reveal that over 1.3 Billion Sentient Beings have the right to Practice if they wish the Freedoms we have come to accept as our inherent rights Protected under Our Constitution and Bill Of Rights.It is No Small Thing, these Right to Law Protect Us All as does the Practice of the Dharma.
How many have died and sacrificed for our rights to our freedoms and the right to Counsel did not just pop in the door. If not for these freedoms or politics, we might not be just saying anything we wish. How wonderful these Freedoms are espoused in the Press of Our Friends the Chinese. The Right to Practice their Beliefs, as long as they do not harm someone.
Good Manners is what the Dharma is to me!
These events are important to help put things in context with the actual world outside of our own.
It is a fact that the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden and his representative the Panchen Lama is the Head Protector of Mahayanna Buddhism in China.
So, this is a good thing and amazing to me! Really beyond politics. What do you think our lamas and Ganchen Lama have been up to?
Just ignore the Panchen Lama because the TGIE and the Dalia Lama are Sour Grapes? No Way, Jose!
If you want the Bigger Picture, then read the press in the Chinese edition. They are on a roll and one would think that Paul Revere had just rode past their door. They defend Buddhism on the Official Communist Newspapers everyday in Big Bold Letters. Now that they have someone to focus this energy as a nation,The Panchen lama.
I do not know how everyone else got here, I know it has helped me to find myself again. But here we are for one reason or another, as we discover friendships through understanding our different ways of looking at things are more in common than we might think. From this we draw strenght to define ourselves in this confusion.Feel less alone after being ostracized, shunned and threatened by sinister forces or confused in general. How could such a thing happen and why?
Well, we've been figuring this out and stabilizing our mindset and getting to understand little by little. That this is an unprecedented event unfolding and all of us are a part of what is happening. No point in looking any farther than your mirror to see that it is you that brings the solution to our dilemma by Being Active in the Practice and saying what you think. May not mean anything to you, but to another,it could be a revelation.
Our words are making a difference and others attempt to provide the evidence and statements to keep us up with the efforts being made,not to do anything would have brought even more suffering. As it is witnessing the surge of the Panchen Lama is amazing to me to witness considering where we started 40 or 50 years ago. Besides, what is happening in China is opening the doors with an option that did not exist 30years ago. This is a Victory and needs a very positve response that things are moving from the dark days of the Cold War to openly defending Buddhism is magnificent. What jubilation this will bring and will solidify Lord Shugden to set the conditons for anyone who applies for a way out of here, get some slack. Eighty % of Chinese kids are looking for a way to eleviate the stress. The Panchen Lama might become their hero and then an opportunity for them to be introduced to the Dharma. Is no small thing.
From the Cultural Revoltion to the New Buddhism Revoltion is what's happening at this very moment. So get on the Dharma Wagon and wish All the Best and if this Lama is just a ruse for the Buddhadharma to flourish? Then great and that's swell. nice job. Now, what's next?
-
Dear Honeydakini, thanks for continuously putting forward to message of “focus on the benefits of practicing DS”!
The sharing in this posting allowed me to see the benefits of bringing Dorje Shugden back to mainstream by working from every angle and using every opportunity. Wisdombeing is right, the efforts of WSS has given the issue related to DS’ ban a lot of attention and awareness. This was very necessary and has helped reduce the suffering experienced by DS practitioners and provided progress in the growth of DS’ practice. At the same time, with more attention on the politics surrounding the DS controversy, it has become just as necessary to convey a clear message to the world that we want to stop this ban because of the benefits from practicing DS, not because we want to put down the Dalai Lama, which sometimes come across as such in the efforts of WSS. Therefore, the combined efforts in the past years have brought constructive results for the practice of Dorje Shugden.
It is so wonderful that, regardless of the different approaches we choose to use, we ALL share ONE COMMON MOTIVATION: to have Dorje Shugden practice flourish and benefit all sentient beings!
Last but not least, I would like to add that the efforts made to promote DS and his good qualities is not powerless simply because the Dalai Lama imposed the ban. I dare make this statement because I believe and completely trust that our Protector is behind us all the way and will support us in everyway so that we will gain the belief of sincere Dharma practitioners.
-
"Tibetans should not engage in petty disputes with each other. I earnestly appeal to them instead to resolve any differences by taking oaths never to share material or spiritual resources with Shugden practitioners."em
We will not tolerate these abuses and neither will be enjoin or be deceived by a lama who rejects the Teachings of Lord Buddha by persecuting Dorje Shugden Practioners. As he and his cult have persecuted us for hundreds of years. It is clear that the line in the sand has been drawn and this time, we will not relent nor take his abuses and will fight this injustice with our dying breaths to sustain and increase the dharma in our world.
United We Rise! Divided...................well that is impossible to be divided with Dorje Shugden Protecting Our Mind's Gate
Or as Tsem Rinpoche advises:Easy Yet Powerful
March 9, 2010
The following has been extracted from H.E. Tsem Tulku Rinpoche's blog.
People have asked me thousands of times what practice they should do daily. They are busy, pressured for time and have heavy commitments. I understand. I sympathize that with so little time, they are sincere enough to want to connect with something higher daily. Perhaps for sanity's sake or perhaps from realizations that THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN WHAT WE GET TRAPPED IN.
Thousands of times I have replied to take the Gaden Hlagyama meditational practice of Lord Tsongkhapa daily. Why? It is short, simple and complete.
Recite the healing Migtsema mantra with concentration 21 times a day, or one rosary, or any amount you are comfortable with. Do this daily. Daily without missing.
Believe, trust and let go of projections during your mantra time and absorb Tsongkhapa's healing energy into you.
Let Him heal you of depression, self-hatred, low self-esteem, stress and fears. Do it daily to reinforce and make the positive energy grow. Do it well. Do it with full understanding that there are higher powers THAT CAN HELP US short and long term.
Lord Tsongkhapa's practice requires no vows, no commitments and no 'dangerous' meditations. It is gentle yet healing. All encompassing. It is short yet complete. It combines the energies of correct wisdom, unending compassion and skilful activities of the Enlightened Lord Tsongkapa into your being. This energy is great to tap into. Try it. Trust it. Let go.
Don't stress yourself with complicated practices. They are not what you need at this time.
Reward yourself with 15 minutes or more of delicious, healing meditations on Lord Tsongkhapa daily.
Commit to Tsongkhapa. Take Him as your sacred personal space Buddha.
You will get results
Much care,
Tsem Tulku
www.kechara.com
-
Heart Advice
The Eight Verses Of Mind Transformation
H.E. Tsem Tulku Rinpoche's message and advice can be summed up in the following eight verses, which he considers the essence of spirituality.
With the thought of attaining Enlightenment
for the welfare of all beings
who are more precious than a wish-fulfilling jewel
I will constantly practise holding them dear.
Whenever I am with others, I will practise
seeing myself as the lowest of all
and from the very depths of my heart
I will respectfully hold others as supreme.
In all actions I will examine my mind
and the moment a disturbing attitude arises,
endangering myself or others,
I will firmly confront and avert it.
Whenever I meet a person of bad nature,
overwhelmed by negative energy and intense suffering
I will hold such a rare one dear
as if I've found a precious treasure.
When others out of jealousy
mistreat me with abuse, slander and so on
I will practise accepting defeat
and offering the victory to them.
When someone I have benefited and in whom
I have placed great trust, hurts me very badly
I will practise seeing that person
as my supreme teacher.
In short, I will offer directly and indirectly
every benefit and happiness to all beings, my mothers.
I will practise in secret taking upon myself
all their harmful actions and sufferings.
Without these practices being defiled
by the eight worldly concerns,
by perceiving all phenomena as illusory
I will practise without grasping to release all beings
from the bondage of the disturbing unsubdued mind and karma.
by Geshe Langri Tangpa
-
Maybe this what Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche meant when he said have faith in the Dalia Lama?
"When someone I have benefited and in whom
I have placed great trust, hurts me very badly
I will practise seeing that person
as my supreme teacher."
-
Maybe this what Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche meant when he said have faith in the Dalia Lama?
"When someone I have benefited and in whom
I have placed great trust, hurts me very badly
I will practise seeing that person
as my supreme teacher."
In deed this verse is very appropriate for us Shugdenpas at this time of confusion. Actually it is appropriate for us all daily, even the Tibetans. Thank you for the nice reminder LG.
May the teachers have long lives. May the enlightened activities be fully displayed in the ten directions, and may the brightness of the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa continuously dissipate the veil of darkness covering the beings of the three realms.
-
Maybe this what Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche meant when he said have faith in the Dalia Lama?
"When someone I have benefited and in whom
I have placed great trust, hurts me very badly
I will practise seeing that person
as my supreme teacher."
Thanks for the apt reminder! The 8 verses are a real treasure. I think, in fact, all of the 8 verses serve as wonderful reminders to us during this time.
It is extremely helpful to contemplate these 8 verses in any difficulty - in this context, I think it helps particularly in constantly reminding us of our motivation within our spiritual practice, and to hold a very patient view that will not, under any circumstances, create any more harm or damage to anyone, even our perceived enemies.
I think this is why the monks and Lamas of monasteries such as Shar Gaden and Serpom are such an inspiration to us. To me, it is precisely because they do not retaliate or cause any more harm or damage to anyone, but instead practice even stronger, more ardently, more patiently, and with even more effort, commitment and devotion. They are essentially practising these 8 verses and by that, it is the most excellent promotion of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition and Dorje Shugden.
Anyway, these 8 verses are a wonderful guide for any of us to live by so I thank you for posting this on the forum.
-
Maybe this what Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche meant when he said have faith in the Dalia Lama?
"When someone I have benefited and in whom
I have placed great trust, hurts me very badly
I will practise seeing that person
as my supreme teacher."
Thanks for the apt reminder! The 8 verses are a real treasure. I think, in fact, all of the 8 verses serve as wonderful reminders to us during this time.
I think this is why the monks and Lamas of monasteries such as Shar Gaden and Serpom are such an inspiration to us. To me, it is precisely because they do not retaliate or cause any more harm or damage to anyone, but instead practice even stronger, more ardently, more patiently, and with even more effort, commitment and devotion. They are essentially practising these 8 verses and by that, it is the most excellent promotion of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition and Dorje Shugden.
Dear Honeydakini,
This is truly a great reminder. We cannot just rely on Shugden in thought, by in our actions by engaging in Dharma contemplation & practices during the most challenging time.
I am sure many Shugden practitioners have endure great difficulties, disappointments, and betrayal. May all these be dedicated towards the real growth of Dharma & Je Tsongkhapa’s teachings to benefit many.
-
I think if we talk about promoting Dorje Shugden (Yes, i know, I apologise. I don't really like the word "promote" either as it's very commercial-talk... but u know what I am trying to say), I think the best reflections of Dorje Shugden and the essence of his practice are ds practitioners such as those hundreds of monks in Serpom and Shar Gaden monasteries.
They will win over the hearts of the world by acting exactly as the Dharma always teaches us - with non violence, resilience and great faith and devotion to the lineage and practices.
In spite of all that they have had to go through, they have not uttered any bad words against the Dalai lama or any other Lamas; in spite of the abuse they have had to go through by their own people turning against them, they do not retaliate. They just start up again and continue their practice peacefully without any complaint or bad words or actions.
In the light of all that is happening, people on the outside - in the rest of the world - will look at the two "camps" and realise that the supposedly "harmful, evil" sect are the peaceful, non-violent, non-harmful, non-political ones that actually uphold the teachings; and that the supposedly "good guys" are the ones ostracising their own people, breaking people's statues and attacking individual's homes.
As far as defending their spiritual leader goes, these DL supporters are not doing very much at all for showing a good face to their faith.
Shar Gaden and Serpom monasteries however, show what DS practice is really about and their actions accord exactly to the requirements to do DS's practice which are to hold our vows, practise the Lama and maintain good samaya with our gurus.
-
I think if we talk about promoting Dorje Shugden (Yes, i know, I apologise. I don't really like the word "promote" either as it's very commercial-talk... but u know what I am trying to say), I think the best reflections of Dorje Shugden and the essence of his practice are ds practitioners such as those hundreds of monks in Serpom and Shar Gaden monasteries.
They will win over the hearts of the world by acting exactly as the Dharma always teaches us - with non violence, resilience and great faith and devotion to the lineage and practices.
In spite of all that they have had to go through, they have not uttered any bad words against the Dalai lama or any other Lamas; in spite of the abuse they have had to go through by their own people turning against them, they do not retaliate. They just start up again and continue their practice peacefully without any complaint or bad words or actions.
In the light of all that is happening, people on the outside - in the rest of the world - will look at the two "camps" and realise that the supposedly "harmful, evil" sect are the peaceful, non-violent, non-harmful, non-political ones that actually uphold the teachings; and that the supposedly "good guys" are the ones ostracising their own people, breaking people's statues and attacking individual's homes.
As far as defending their spiritual leader goes, these DL supporters are not doing very much at all for showing a good face to their faith.
Shar Gaden and Serpom monasteries however, show what DS practice is really about and their actions accord exactly to the requirements to do DS's practice which are to hold our vows, practise the Lama and maintain good samaya with our gurus.
When you say 'bad' words - are you refering to calling the DL a liar etc?
You make the process of them 'just standing up again' sound very easy. I very much apreciate the reminders to practice 'accepting the defeat' posted in this thread, it is an essential internal action to base our outer actions of solving the outer problems of homeless monks & lineage destruction on. I know many of the monks in the new DS monasteries have apreciated these actions, both inner and outer.
-
Is there really NO MIDDLE PATH to this matter???
Must it really be for or against?
It's either condemn HH the Dalai Lama or condemn Dorje Shugden. Both sides looks quite political and the same to me. What will all this commotion create in the minds of new comers? Does it create a good reputation for the Shugden practitioners and how will people view this practice in the end?
Is the action we take justify the many minds we will turn away from the Dharma? I indirectly affecting othe rpeople's spiritual paths?
I know that it is also injustice to allow the existing Dorje Shugden practitioners to suffer this persecution, it is unfair and of course not right. However, I think we the practitioners being more firm in Dharma and faith would be able to shoulder the hard times we are facing now. It is like purification before a great teaching or something hugely beneficial to arise (Dorje Shugden ban lifted and we can spread and or practice openly).
I guess we will seriously think which is really more important and most beneficial in the long term and for the future?
-
"Is there really NO MIDDLE PATH to this matter???"
The Middle Way is internal. Like being peaceful while not shirking from forceful actions.
-
Is there really NO MIDDLE PATH to this matter???
Must it really be for or against?
It's either condemn HH the Dalai Lama or condemn Dorje Shugden. Both sides looks quite political and the same to me. What will all this commotion create in the minds of new comers? Does it create a good reputation for the Shugden practitioners and how will people view this practice in the end?
Is the action we take justify the many minds we will turn away from the Dharma? I indirectly affecting othe rpeople's spiritual paths?
I agree with what you're saying and I also feel your frustration in terms of trying to find this middle way. Sometimes, it feels like if you don't speak out against Dalai Lama, then you're not a "good" DS practitioner; if you don't speak out against Dorje Shugden, then you are a "bad" student of the Dalai Lama. What if someone really just DOES NOT WISH TO SPEAK AGAINST either side? what if someone was truly trying to encourage a path that mutually respected both sides? Remember that for many people, this is the dilemma they are facing - they DO respect and love both sides and DON'T wish to speak out against either. However, it seems that that option is disallowed or pooh-poohed and that you're not being authentic or sincere if you don't choose to be forceful towards one side or the other.
PS When I said "bad words" I didn't mean calling Dalai Lama a liar etc. I meant that they don't overtly criticise his actions or say anything derogatory against him or any of his side. They don't go around rallying other people to speak badly against the Dalai Lama; unlike what DL's side is doing which is to rally people against DS. I found this aspect of their practice inspiring because they show me that it is not about what is happening on the outside but about how they can continue with the practice, whether or not it is easy. This is what I personally find most inspiring in these monks. It is what I personally find a lot of strength in and reaffirms to me what a beautiful lineage of practices they come from. However, apparently, it increasingly feels like seeing things from this positive perspective is not enough and that because I don't support people speaking out against DL or using wrathful, forceful actions, I "am wrong" and a bad bad bad practitioner.
Different strokes for different folks - why is it so difficult to understand that there are simply some people who do not wish to speak out against others or use forceful actions? I can understand why people do it and I understand also that it has been beneficial in many ways, but it is not a method that I would personally choose. There can't be just ONE WAY of approaching this situation can there? Yes, perhaps some may choose this more forceful method, but I don't think a more peaceful, positive, encouraging method should be so quickly dismissed either.
-
It's Tiring Tiring Tiring Tiring! I am quite TIRED of this. You said it honey!
Instead of swimming with the current we are pushing against it and I am so uninspired by both sides of the story especially when is like one liners that is supposedly a justification for it all. To me if you accuse someone who has done so much then it makes no different and karma right back at you when u get accused back. You slap me I slap you back like a ping pong ball it goes and I guess eventually who ever gets Tired will in the end stop and Amen some peace will come?
I am sorry but I just simply do not see How one side can be better then the other when they do the same thing in their own defense. Same strategy by blatantly degrading one another makes everyone degraded.
If I was an outsider checking this website out and looking in the discussion amongst us I think I'd be super turn off and turn off from any Tibetan Buddhism completely. Like I need more stress in my life that is already stressful enough. No Thanks! Perhaps more facts and info that inspires and build faith like what TK always post would bring a breath of fresher air. I always enjoy his/her post.
Now there is a lot of accusations on the Tibetan forum Phayul regarding Pabongkha Rinpoche forcefully converted people and also destroyed a lot of Nyingma statues... does anyone know about this and can clarify??? What's this about as I don't think Pabongkha did it or did it to harm? Is it True?
-
Honeydakini:
maybe I misunderstood you - I definitely support your freedom not to protest against the DL & to hold whatever you wish. All I want to do is debate the point that is often forwarded at the mo that says the DL is promoting DS practice via the ban so therefore we should not criticise him. Or the view that criticising him is in itself bad anyway.
DSsnowlion - maybe some people are angry with the Dalai Lama & you are right, where this exists it is damaging. But most people I think are engaging in actions which are worlds apart from those of the DL. Not everyone will be able to make that discrimination, but I think a lot will. In fact I'm sure of it and I have met many people who are not Buddhist but understand very well the good qualities of speaking out firmly against injustice. We have a lot of experience in the west of doing this & intelligent people can see.
-
What if someone really just DOES NOT WISH TO SPEAK AGAINST either side? what if someone was truly trying to encourage a path that mutually respected both sides?
Not speaking against either side is always an option. As is not speaking, period.
Remember that for many people, this is the dilemma they are facing - they DO respect and love both sides and DON'T wish to speak out against either. However, it seems that that option is disallowed or pooh-poohed and that you're not being authentic or sincere if you don't choose to be forceful towards one side or the other.
This is a fallacy. The option to not speak out against either side has not been poo-pooed to my knowledge. What is being poo pooed are silly strategems based on nothing but a vague longing for surface harmony that make a mockery of reason and precision.
Je Tsongkhapa said :
Limiting things to two possibilities-either things intrinsically exist or they do not- derives from the universal limitation that anything imaginable either exists or does not exist. Similarly, the limitation that what truly exists must either truly exist as single or truly exist as plural is based on the universal limitation that anything must eihter be singular or plural. When there is such a limitation, any further alternative must necessarily be precluded:"hence it is utter nonsense to assert a phenomenon that is neither of these two.
Do you see where I am going with this?
Confused spiritual people often get stuck in this view that it can never be one thing, and not another. full stop. People misunderstand emptiness to mean some kind of radical relativism, even conventionally.
I am saying that the Dalai Lama is wrong on this matter. Full Stop. The idea that this means i do not respect him has already been dealt with extensively on this forum and shown to be nonsense. The idea that this means i do not love him is the same.
You always have the option to keep quiet, but once you take up a point of view, please try not to be discouraged if it is demonstrated to be untenable.
The contortions that some go through here to try to come up with a point of view that makes everything alright just the way it is appears to me to be a psuedo-spiritual cop out, an abdication of personal responsibility.
Saying the DL is "promoting" this practice is akin to saying Hitler was promoting the Jews. It's just silly, kind of insulting and dangerous, in my opinion.
The view of profound secret mantra is secret, so if you think the DL is Avalokiteshvara, respect him as such and keep it to yourself. I won't bore you by trying to assert my view that my own spiritual guide is Manjushri, as these are matters of view, not of fact.
PS When I said "bad words" I didn't mean calling Dalai Lama a liar etc. I meant that they don't overtly criticise his actions or say anything derogatory against him or any of his side. They don't go around rallying other people to speak badly against the Dalai Lama; unlike what DL's side is doing which is to rally people against DS. I found this aspect of their practice inspiring because they show me that it is not about what is happening on the outside but about how they can continue with the practice, whether or not it is easy.
you are misinterpreting what is happening. Many of these don't speak out because they have samaya with DL. Many don't speak out because they don't want to be burned out of their homes, called a chinese spy, kicked out of their monastery, have their children followed home from school, see wanted posters of themselves posted around their community telling where their wives and children work and what time they can be found etc etc.
This is what I personally find most inspiring in these monks. It is what I personally find a lot of strength in and reaffirms to me what a beautiful lineage of practices they come from. However, apparently, it increasingly feels like seeing things from this positive perspective is not enough and that because I don't support people speaking out against DL or using wrathful, forceful actions, I "am wrong" and a bad bad bad practitioner.
I don't think anyone has said you are a bad practitioner, or even implied it, have they? That is really your own business. Some say you are wrong, it that really such a big deal? Have you never disagreed with someone before? I'm not sure what the big trauma is here....I think it is ok for someone not to agree with your views, don't you?
Different strokes for different folks - why is it so difficult to understand that there are simply some people who do not wish to speak out against others or use forceful actions?
see above
I can understand why people do it and I understand also that it has been beneficial in many ways, but it is not a method that I would personally choose. There can't be just ONE WAY of approaching this situation can there? Yes, perhaps some may choose this more forceful method, but I don't think a more peaceful, positive, encouraging method should be so quickly dismissed either.
there I agree with you. Please be as peaceful and positive, as encouraging as you can possibly be!
The thing is, you continuously encourage others to see it your way, but get offended when your view is challenged.
I do not dismiss your method, but I do dismiss your idea that your method should be my method, and I will dispute wrong views where I find them. I hope you are not offended.
I have used strong language in my posts, as i often do. It is my heartfelt prayer that you do not take it personally, I feel I am attacking a view, not a person. I wish you all the best, and would like to consider you my friend. This is just how i talk to my friends. In the spirit of friendship and peace, I encourage you to prove me wrong, I will rejoice in your wisdom.
best wishes,
cc
-
Ten Reasons Why Dorje Shugden is Considered a Buddha
1. Dorje Shugden is the last incarnation in a lineage of enlightened Masters
Dorje Shugden arose from an incarnation lineage of enlightened Teachers. As the highly realized Master, Tagpo Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche, said:
You have manifested in different aspects
As Indian and Tibetan Masters,
Such as Manjushri, Mahasiddha Biwawa, Sakya Pandita,
Buton Rinchen Drub, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, and many others.
Their life stories are explained in theOM BENZA WIKI BITRANA SOHA!
OM DHARMAPALA MAHA RADZA BENDZA BEGAWANA RUDRA
PANTSA KULA SARVA SHATRUM MARAYA HUM PHAT!
(entourage)
By just recollecting you for an instant, outer and inner
Obstructions are dispelled. O powerful five families
Of Gyalchen Shugden, bestower of the four activities,
To the Dharmapala and his entourage I bow down.
OM VAJRASATTVA …
Whatever I have done incorrectly
Through not finding, not knowing,
Or lack of ability,
Please be patient with all of these.
By remaining together with this image
For the sake of all migrators,
May you grant us long life without illness,
Power, and supreme attainments!
OM SU PRATISHTA BENDZA YE SOHA!
By the virtue arising through my effort,
With pure motive in this method,
May all beings be cared for inseparably
By peaceful and wrathful Manjushri from life to life!
May the Venerable Gurus’ lives be firmly stable,
May pure activities flourish to the ten directions,
And may the lamp of Losang’s Teachings remain forever,
Dispelling darkness of the three realms’ beings.
In all lives may we be inseparable from the perfect Guru,
Enjoy the glory of Dharma, and,
Fully completing all qualities of the paths and grounds,
Swiftly attain the state of Vajradhara.
By this virtue may I quickly, having attained the state of Guru Buddha,
Establish every being without exception in that state.
That the Dharma King Tsong Khapa’s pure Dharma tradition flourish
May obstructive omens be eliminated and conducive conditions
Without exception be complete!
In dependence on the two combined accumulations
Of myself and others over the three times,
May the Conqueror Losang Drakpa’s
Teachings flourish for a very long time.
May there be auspiciousness of the root and lineage Gurus!
May there be auspiciousness of the hosts of yidam deities!
May there be auspiciousness of the goddesses, dakas, and dakinis!
May there be auspiciousness of the Dharma protector guardians!
In that snow-mountain encircled land,
Source of every benefit and joy,
May Lord Tenzin Gyatso, Chenresig,
Live forever ’till the end of existence!
book Heart Jewel. Since his lineage is enlightened, Dorje Shugden is a Buddha too.
2. Dorje Shugden could not be subdued by the 5th Dalai Lama or other Lamas
When Ngatrul Dragpa Gyaltsen, the last human incarnation, manifested as the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden (as he had predicted he would do), the 5th Dalai Lama initially developed the mistaken idea that he was a spirit and tried to subdue him through performing wrathful fire pujas. Although he and many high Lamas tried to destroy Dorje Shugden, they were not able to because he is a Buddha. This is explained by Tagpo Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche in his praise of Dorje Shugden, Infinite Aeons:
Then, although four undisputed powerful Tantrikas,
With concentration, began wrathful rituals to strike you down,
Through the power of having completed Guhyasamaja's two stages,
You would not be silenced, and showed signs of heroism; praise to you!
3. Dorje Shugden’s form teaches the paths of Sutra and Tantra
Dorje Shugden's form teaches the complete stages of the path of Sutra and Tantra, and such qualities are not possessed by the forms of worldly beings.
He appears as a fully ordained monk to show that the practice of pure moral discipline is essential for those who wish to attain enlightenment. In his left hand he holds a heart, which symbolize great compassion and spontaneous great bliss – the essence of all the stages of the vast path of Sutra and Tantra. His round yellow hat represents the view of Nagarjuna, and the wisdom sword in his right hand (like the one held by Manjushri and Je Tsongkhapa) teaches us to sever ignorance, the root of samsara, with the sharp blade of Nagarjuna’s view. This is the essence of all the stages of the profound path of Sutra and Tantra. He rides a snow lion, symbolizing the four fearlessnesses of a Buddha.
Explanation of his remaining features can be found in Heart Jewel, as can the specific enlightened function of each of the thirty-two Deities of his mandala, which are explained in a prayer written by Sachen Kunlo, one of the great Sakya Lamas.
Only enlightened beings display a meaningful aspect that teaches the entire path to enlightenment. Therefore, Dorje Shugden is a Buddha.
4. Dorje Shugden is the incarnation of the five Buddha families
Dorje Shugden is the incarnation of the five Buddha families and appears in five forms that symbolize the five families. These forms are explained in Heart Jewel and are called 'the five lineages of Dorje Shugden'. The principal Deity, Duldzin Dorje Shugden rides a snow lion. Vairochana Shugden is white and rides an elephant. Ratna Shugden is yellow and rides a palomino horse. Pema Shugden is red and rides a turquoise dragon. Karma Shugden is dark red and rides a wrathful Garuda bird. These forms also symbolize Dorje Shugden's attainment of pacifying, increasing, controlling and wrathful actions and his main form as Duldzin symbolizes the supreme attainment – enlightenment itself.
Since Dorje Shugden is the manifestation of the five Buddha families, there is no doubt that he is the same enlightened nature as Buddha Vajradhara.
5. Dorje Shugden is the same nature as Manjushri, Je Tsongkhapa, Mahakala and Kalarupa
Dorje Shugden is the same nature as Je Tsongkhapa – they are the same person performing different functions. Many Dorje Shugden sadhanas state that Dorje Shugden is the embodiment of the “Guru, Yidam, and Protector”, where “Guru” refers specifically to Lama Tsongkhapa. When we practice the sadhana of Dorje Shugden, we are indirectly practising the Guru yoga of Je Tsongkhapa. Gelugpa practitioners who have a sincere trust in Dorje Shugden will have no difficulty in generating unshakeable faith in Je Tsongkhapa and his teachings.
Both Je Tsongkhapa (‘peaceful Manjushri’) and Dorje Shugden (‘wrathful Manjushri’) are manifestations of the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri, as are the Dharma Protectors four-faced Mahakala and Kalarupa. Therefore, they are all the same enlightened nature.
6. Dorje Shugden’s mandala Deities are the same nature as the body mandala Deities of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang
The Deities of Dorje Shugden’s mandala are the same nature as the Deities of the body mandala of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang, who is in essence Je Tsongkhapa.
Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang is the principal object of refuge in the blessed Gelug practice of Offering to the Spiritual Guide (Tib: Lama Chöpa), which comes from Manjushri’s Emanation Scripture. In this practice we visualize within his body the thirty-two Deities of Guhyasamaja. These thirty-two Deities manifest as the thirty-two Deities of Dorje Shugden's mandala, indicating that Dorje Shugden is the same nature as Je Tsongkhapa and Guhyasamaja and thus a fully enlightened being.
Of the Deities of the five lineages of Dorje Shugden explained above, the principal Deity is Duldzin Dorje Shugden, who is the manifestation of the aggregate of consciousness of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang. The remaining four lineages are manifestations of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang’s remaining four aggregates. Je Tsongkhapa himself therefore manifests as an enlightened Protector and retinue to protect his Ganden tradition.
7. The practice of Dorje Shugden was taught by Je Tsongkhapa in Tushita Pure Land
Dorje Shugden arose as the principal Protector of Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine over 300 years ago, at the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama, who composed the first verse of praise to him. However, the current system of empowerment and worship is more recent and comes from a great Lama called Tagpo Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche. Lama Tagpo went to Tushita Pure Land where he met Je Tsongkhapa and requested a teaching. In response, Je Tsongkhapa lifted up the cloth covering the front of the golden throne on which he was sitting, and the five lineages of Dorje Shugden emerged. Dorje Shugden then transmitted the practice to Lama Tagpo, just as Maitreya had transmitted five major philosophical treatises to Asanga in Tushita Pure Land in earlier times.
Lama Tagpo later transmitted these instructions to Pabongkhapa Dechen Nyingpo, who passed them on to Trijang Dorjechang Losang Yeshe -- spiritual father and son. From Trijang Rinpoche, they passed to our present day Gelugpa Teachers.
8. Dorje Shugden has been relied upon by the highest Lamas, who themselves have been recognized as enlightened
Well-regarded Gelugpa practitioners of Dorje Shugden include the 5th Dalai Lama, Kelsang Thubten Jigme Gyatso 1743-1811 (a tutor to the 9th Dalai Lama), Losang Thubten Wangchuk Jigme Gyatso 1775 – 1813 (head of the Gelugpa in Mongolia), Ngulchu Dharmabadra, the Indian master Shakya Shri Bhadra, the 11th Dalai Lama 1838 - 1856 (who installed Dorje Shugden as the Protector of the Gelugpa tradition), Gyara Tulku Rinpoche, Tomo Geshe Rinpoche (regarded by the 13th Dalai Lama as an emanation of Je Tsongkhapa), Serkong Rinpoche (regarded by the 13th Dalai Lama as Vajradhara),Tagpo Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche, Pabongkha Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche, Khangsar Rinpoche, Tathag Rinpoche (in charge of the Tibetan Government after the death of the 13th Dalai Lama), Zong Rinpoche, Lobsang Tamdin, Ribur Rinpoche, Khen Rinpoche Losang Tharchin, Lati Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, Geshe Ngawang Dhargyey, Khensur Rinpoche, Khechog Rinpoche, Dagyab Rinpoche, Gelek Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Yongyal Rinpoche, the 14th Dalai Lama (until he was in his forties), Dagom Rinpoche, Gonsar Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche and others.
These Lamas themselves have all been recognized as realized, holy beings, with many thousands of Tantric disciples who revered them as living Buddhas.
The later Lamas were all direct or indirect disciples of the great Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche. The 14th Dalai Lama says that Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche were “wrong” to worship Dorje Shugden, but they have been recognized as emanations of Heruka and Amitabha respectively, and were the principal upholders of Je Tsongkhapa’s Gelug doctrine in their time; so how can they be wrong?
9. Dorje Shugden performs the twenty-seven deeds of a Buddha
The highly realized Master, Tagpo Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche, composed a verse of praise:
With deep faith I prostrate to you, Vajradhara Dorje Shugden.
Although you have already attained the Buddha ground
And engage in the twenty-seven deeds of a Buddha,
You appear in various forms to help the Buddhadharma and sentient beings.
These twenty-seven deeds, explained in the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras, range from showing living beings the way to enter the spiritual path to liberation up to guiding them to the final attainment of Buddhahood. Since Dorje Shugden performs all these twenty-seven deeds, it is clear that he is a Buddha.
Some people say that Dorje Shugden has harmed practitioners who have strayed from the Ganden tradition, but there are no examples of this forthcoming, whereas there are many examples of how Dorje Shugden has protected living beings. For example, Dorje Shugden was responsible for the Dalai Lama being able to safely travel from Tibet to India in 1959.
Even today, there are many Buddhist practitioners with their own stories to tell of how they have been protected by this Dharma Protector. Dorje Shugden's name means 'Vajra Possessing Strength', indicating that he has great power and strength to spread Buddhadharma and to help people in these degenerate times.
10. Relying upon Dorje Shugden leads to supramundane results
The difference between a Dharma Protector and a worldly protector is that the former is an enlightened being whereas the latter is not. Worldly protectors have no ability to flourish the Buddhadharma nor to protect Dharma realizations in a practitioner's mind. As a Dharma Protector, Dorje Shugden’s principal function is to protect our Dharma practice, not to help our mundane affairs.
Dorje Shugden always helps, guides, and protects faithful practitioners by granting blessings, increasing their wisdom, fulfilling their virtuous wishes, and bestowing success on all their virtuous activities. Dorje Shugden does not help only Gelugpas; because he is a Buddha, he helps all living beings.
Dorje Shugden has removed obstacles and created the conditions for the extraordinary growth of Je Tsongkhapa's teachings, and most importantly realizations of those teachings, in this current age. Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine is now spreading to countries throughout the world. For example, any spiritual success enjoyed by NKT and FPMT practitioners is due to the blessings of this Buddha. (Lama Yeshe, the founder of the FPMT, relied sincerely on Dorje Shugden throughout his life.)
Those who rely upon Dorje Shugden know that their spiritual realizations come from his blessings. However, as with a relationship with any holy being, this is something that can only be experienced by someone who relies on him with strong faith over a long period of time, steadily building their connection with him.
Gyara Tulku Rinpoche from Drepung Loseling Monastery wrote a prayer of gratitude, whose sentiments are shared by Dorje Shugden practitioners worldwide:
First you gave me a highly qualified Spiritual Guide
Under whom I studied and practised Dharma.
When through following misleading advice I came close to entering wrong paths,
You immediately hooked me back into the correct path.
O Duldzin, King of the Dharma, I thank you for your kindness.
Your body is the synthesis of all Sangha Jewels,
Your speech is the synthesis of all Dharma Jewels,
And your mind is the synthesis of all Buddha Jewels.
Dorje Shugden Wisdom Buddha
-
Promoting Dorje Shugden is one of the best things a devotee can do. Besides gaining merits in promoting Dorje Shugden, the blessings that DS will bestow on new devotees is such a benefit on any one's spiritual path.
Dorje Shugden primarily removes obstructions for our Dharma study and practice not merely to grant our mundane wishes.
However to promote the greatness of Dorje Shugden, please read the contribution by Geronimo on page 3 of this article. A precise and factual analogy of the greatness of Dorje Shugden explaining in details the good attributes of our Protector Buddha.
-
Thank you honeydakini for reposting Dharma Defenders post. I totally agree with you that it really sums up all the things that we want to see in the world in the future. And thank you Dharma Defender for the very well explained, well written statement.
Regarding the statement. I like how Dharma Defenders says that we need to cement Dorje Shugdens practice into those who don't necessarily believe in the Dalai Lama or have a stance in the issue. This way the practices of Dorje Shugden will spread faster throughout the world :) People do not necessarily need to be deep into the beliefs of Dharma and Buddhism to learn the practice of Dorje Shugden. Which makes the practice betterm everyone can do it! I hope that more and more people pick up the practice of Dorje Shugden and may this cause the ban to be lifted soon.