dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: crazycloud on February 02, 2010, 05:06:38 PM
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So what's the deal with a whole slew of Newbies all joining more or less at the same time (from January 12 to Jan 19 or so), and then all representing the same (or similar views) back and forth in what look like conversations?
Is it just me?
I'm all for diversity of views, but on of the things that makes this forum refreshing is that we keep it real, and this stuff doesn't feel real to me, it looks staged.
main points of the conversation....
- WSS book not enjoyable.
Dalai Lama is a wisdom being pretending to be against Ds to spread the practice.
There is a lack of clarity in these views, and they look to me to be a result of fear of being straigthforward about what is going on. If the DL is actually promoting the practice by opposing it, and people keep mentioning how he keeps up a hard stand for appearances, then we also need to do our part and keep the attention-getting conflict going. So why are we being urged to keep quiet, focus on our practice, "make love, not war?"
If DL pretends to make war, we should do the same. If DL indicates the time to let the conflict die down has come, let's do that. But it makes no sense that we should allow DL to slander our practice and use his political power to oppress pratitioners, while we keep quiet and do not oppose him.
Just my two cents. Sorry if I have misrepresented anyone, as a noob myself, I'm always glad to see new voices on the forum....
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...then we also need to do our part and keep the attention-getting conflict going. So why are we being urged to keep quiet, focus on our practice, "make love, not war?"
Excellent! The whole "maybe there's a bigger picture" take on things makes me want to puke.
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I agree that it does not sound real. That´s why I was saying that it seems that Beggar procreated and his kids are invading the website. Although I love Beggar very much we kept until the end this serious disagreement about his wrong view "DL and DSh spreading Dharma together".
Whoever he is or they are, one thing is sure, debaters they ain´t. They are incapable of finding one single good reason to counter what we have already told them. Of course, how can they answer Lord Atisha´s view about conventional truth ... So, they just keep repeating their feel-good gospel. They remind me politicians that just keep repeating what goes against truth or reason in the hope that a bunch of innocent people is going to take them seriously.
Well, this is a free country.
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Excellent! The whole "maybe there's a bigger picture" take on things makes me want to puke.
Amen Brother! Let's tell it like it is. I completely endorse the WSS view that the Dalai Lama is an ordinary being, an imposter, who is harming the Dharma. Why can't it be so? I'm sorry if that upsets those who have faith in the Dalai Lama.
Of course the Dalai Lama has given Dharma teachings to thousands but his teachings are popular because of the big name he's developed for himself as a Buddhist holy being, emanation of the Buddha of Compassion, but mainly due to the power of the Dharma. where did those teachings come from? Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang and Ling Dorjechang, but does the Dalai Lama ever mention them AT ALL? No - he gives the teachings as if they are his own whilst disparaging his Gurus.
That tells me all I need to know about his motivation.
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So what's the deal with a whole slew of Newbies all joining more or less at the same time (from January 12 to Jan 19 or so), and then all representing the same (or similar views) back and forth in what look like conversations?
Is it just me?
I'm all for diversity of views, but on of the things that makes this forum refreshing is that we keep it real, and this stuff doesn't feel real to me, it looks staged.
main points of the conversation....
- WSS book not enjoyable.
Dalai Lama is a wisdom being pretending to be against Ds to spread the practice.
There is a lack of clarity in these views, and they look to me to be a result of fear of being straigthforward about what is going on. If the DL is actually promoting the practice by opposing it, and people keep mentioning how he keeps up a hard stand for appearances, then we also need to do our part and keep the attention-getting conflict going. So why are we being urged to keep quiet, focus on our practice, "make love, not war?"
If DL pretends to make war, we should do the same. If DL indicates the time to let the conflict die down has come, let's do that. But it makes no sense that we should allow DL to slander our practice and use his political power to oppress pratitioners, while we keep quiet and do not oppose him.
Just my two cents. Sorry if I have misrepresented anyone, as a noob myself, I'm always glad to see new voices on the forum....
As one of the noobs I assume you're talking about, I agree with you - there probably is a lack of clarity in my views, hence why I joined the forum, to expand my knowledge. I'm getting pretty fed up of people criticising our Protector, talking badly about high lamas and at the same time, being very disrespectful to His Holiness.
Anyway, I think the "keep quiet and focus on our practice" advice applies more to those vehemently against or for the practice because there's just no balance in those views and it doesn't serve anyone. In fact, for a lot of newbies who have just come in on the issue, it becomes even more confusing and might even turn them away from Buddhism (just look at A Great Deception - if that was the first 'dharma' book I read, I wouldn't want to be Buddhist).
You know what? Very good point re "If DL pretends to make war, we should do the same." - I never thought about it that way! That's definitely something I'll keep in mind...but it doesn't mean I'll ever talk bad about the Dalai Lama. I can't, the karmic reprecussion for me would be too great because I don't know if my motivation is pure! (I can say it's pure but whether it really is, is a different story!) Likewise for those who criticise him, perhaps?
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I just got two comments posted back-to-back on my blog. They are coming from two different Gmail accounts, but from the same IP address. Their comments are different variations on the theme: "I am a DS practitioner, but I don't like the book." I can discern some similarities between the Gmail accounts and some handles being used on this forum. I suspect sock puppetry. Needless to say, I won't be approving their comments.
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There's similar junk on 'American Buddhist':
http://www.americanbuddhist.net/don039t-be-disheartened-re-dalai-lama-amp-dorje-shugden
'what do you think?' gave it away.... ;)
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A case of a Dharma Centre or a Sangha who have just found the internet, or a case of dilettantes? ??? ;D
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Dear Dharmadefender, and whoever has been writing along the same lines as yourself.
There is a difference between it doesn't mean I'll ever talk bad about the Dalai Lama and propounding that the Dalai Lama did what he did out of some secret good motivation, because he is a Great Bodhisattva.
There is no Buddha that ever campaigned against his Gurus,
ever campaigned against the lineage Gurus,
ever dared say that his Gurus are WRONG, yes, with this tone, WRONG, and he, right;
ever forced people to break their samaya with their own Gurus,
ever forced a schism in the Sangha
ever persecuted people, let alone for religious reasons.
Lord Atisha didn´t do it
Lord Tsong Khapa didn´t do it
This should suffice for anyone that uses his mind with the tools of reasoning --a very special characteristic of our lineage-- to stop saying such nonsense as we´ve read from some posts in the last days. I would like those who are writing along those lines, whether they are one or many, Noobs or oldies, to think twice before demeaning the enlightened actions of our Buddhas by comparing them to the actions of the Tibetan leader.
One thing is to say I don't know which his intentions were, another, entirely different, is to speculate that he might´ve had good motivations. In Buddhism there is no good motivations for the list of actions described above, in particular there is no good motivation to mistreat your Lama, to betray him. So instead of speculating about the bad karma that those who criticize the DL might incur, think on the karmic repercusions for yourself or those who are disseminating this terrible view, that Guru Buddhas can act in such non Dharmic ways and still be called Guru Buddhas. Now, this brings the destruction of Dharma, to confuse people about such serious matter. So please for your own sake, think twice.
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So, now we can add "Pathseeker" to the list. One emanation of the person who posted on my blog today just started their own blog:
[url]http://gazoksas.wordpress.com/[/url]
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Lineageholder,
I looked into that website and it´s exactly the same words with which Beggar started this Dorjeshugden.com website. So my joke about Beggar having kids was a mistake, it´s Beggar himself riding again the internet. Wow.
Beggar,
you should´ve told us. We could've given you a big Welcome Back party ...
Anyway, we are back to the same subject, and we continue to be in disagreement about this DL-DSh contraption of yours. Talk to us openly, no need to hide behind triple masks.
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Dear Beggar,
Welcome back! Why do you need to hide behind multiple IDs such as 'iloveds', 'Vajraprotector', Dharmadefender', 'pathseeker', and 'dsnowlion'?
Do you think that posting the same arguments over and over again under different names will give the impression of widespread acceptance of your view of 'Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden spreading Dharma together' and perhaps convince people to ignore the facts and adopt a wrong view?
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Hi all
It's not necessarily Beggar, they could just have liked his view and lifted the blurb from this web site!
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So, now we can add "Pathseeker" to the list. One emanation of the person who posted on my blog today just started their own blog:
[url]http://gazoksas.wordpress.com/[/url]
Sorry to spoil your fun but that's actually me ;D
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Sorry to spoil your fun but that's actually me
Exactly! dharmadefender = wisdombeing = gazoksas, do you deny it? Why are you all using the same IP address?
I see you have found a more sympathetic ear on Tenzin Peljor's anti-DS blog:
http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/amazon-unlocks-a-secret/#comment-930 (http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/amazon-unlocks-a-secret/#comment-930)
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I deny the 'wisdombeing' association actually! I don't have any reason to lie - I happily admitted to being gazoksas :) I gotta find somewhere to write, that won't censor my views, don't I? ;D if comments cannot be made freely, then it doesn't allow for debate.
Wow you guys are really anti-moderate view. I don't see what's wrong with NOT wanting to take a stance because perhaps I don't know enough about the issue which (like I've previously pointed out) I'm here to learn about without accusations of being someone else!
ever dared say that his Gurus are WRONG, yes, with this tone, WRONG, and he, right;
a friend, can you please explain this video to me in the context of what you've said above? Because I don't understand how Trijang Rinpoche is allowed to practise, and no one else is? ??? Thank you in advance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWi1fJkTA9Q
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Why is it, then, that iloveds just tried to post another comment to my blog, again from the same IP address as wisdombeing and gazaksos (i.e., dharmadefender).
No other comments being posted to my blog show up with that IP address, not even the test one I just did for myself.
Dharmadefender, STOP LYING!
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How am I supposed to know? (by the way, please spell my name correctly)
You can say and believe what you want mate, but I'm leaving this particular conversation as is because I didn't come on to defend myself, I came on to learn about Dorje Shugden so I know how to defend him. If you want to help someone (i.e. me) learn so they know how to respond to anti-DS people, great, you have my deepest thanks but what you guys are doing at the moment is flaming people you've never met, simply because they have an opinion you dislike.
In-fighting is what's ruining Buddhism at the moment - my opinion is we don't really need to add fuel to that fire via this forum.
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And I have no patience for people's delusions: mine, the Dalai Lama's, or yours.
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hmm its interesting to see all the anti Dalai Lama things going on in this thread. You'd think Dorje Shudgen would stand for this? Or in reality he dosent mind because he's a Buddha?
From how i see it hating HHDL and hating Dorje Shudgen is the same thing; they both work for the Dharma in their own way, and us hating HHDL the way his supporters hate Dorje Shudgen makes us equal to the haters of Dorje Shudgen as well.
any form of hate/lack of patience is destroying Glorious Dorje Shudgen's practice because it sends the message to others that Dorje Shudgen practitioners are irrational and spiteful.
is that what you want to cultivate?
I am pretty sure, the heart that he is holding in his hand is the heart that is full of hatred.
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Hey, Ensapa, what's your IP address? :P I see you registered on the same day as DharmaDefender.
It was Shantideva who said to have no patience with delusions.
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From how i see it hating HHDL and hating Dorje Shudgen is the same thing; they both work for the Dharma in their own way, and us hating HHDL the way his supporters hate Dorje Shudgen makes us equal to the haters of Dorje Shudgen as well.
Dear Ensapa,
So, you're another new emanation!
Why do you feel the need to post the same stuff under so many different names? Are you afraid of being in the minority? :)
We don't hate the Dalai Lama, but to claim that the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are performing the same function is the root of your wrong view. To use a 'Pabongkha-ism', it's like comparing a lame horse with a thoroughbred stallion.
How can you claim that someone who is harming others is a Dharma practitioner, much less a Buddha? If you check, the greatness of the Dharma in these times is due to Dorje Shugden protecting Trijang Rinpoche and the precious Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa which has spread throughout the West since 1959. On the other hand, all the Dalai Lama has done is make a big name for himself using his Guru's teachings, persecute his Guru's disciples and squabble over Tibetan politics, having totally failed to serve his people or accomplish the goals of Tibetan independence or autonomy they all long for. You may say that his failure to accomplish his political goals are not his fault, but he certainly has choice over how he promotes or suppresses Dorje Shugden practice and he's obviously made the wrong choice.
These are the facts, not hatred. See things as they are, not as you'd like them to be.
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back in the day i mulled over beggar's theory for a while, but in the end, whether you want to hold such a view or not it makes no difference to how we should act: the Dalai Lama, for whatever reason (and frankly i have no idea myself) is *unquestionably* acting to destroy his and our holy lineage; his methods are completely despicable and the results are appalling. this is a fact. therefore, whether he's as thoroughly deluded as he appears or in reality a Buddha (engaged in some *very* deep cover black op.s!), the *only* suitable course of action is to oppose him, as strongly and vehemently as may be necessary to stop him. in my view this means, right now, to render him impotent by destroying his reputation. that *is* my aim; all attempts at peaceful actions and debate having failed, now is the time for wrathful actions.
personally, i have chosen even to go so far as to insult him, knowing full well how shocking and potentially divisive that action may be to the noobs and the chattering classes: it is, imho, Right Speech when it's motivated by the compassionate intention to preserve this holy lineage for the benefit of this and future generations. my job as a practitioner is to watch my mind while engaged in these wrathful actions and try to oppose the delusions that arise, and to watch carefully the apparent external results to judge how and when it may be appropriate to soften or harden my tone.
i think you, sir or madam, posting under so many names, are completely naive in this matter. even if he *is* a Buddha (which i disagree with, but for the sake of argument...), he's not *acting* like one from the point of view of ordinary perception and so the correct action - the action this Buddha too wishes us to undertake - is to oppose him by all means necessary. that means to take away his power, his reputation.
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As one of the noobs I assume you're talking about, I agree with you - there probably is a lack of clarity in my views, hence why I joined the forum, to expand my knowledge. I'm getting pretty fed up of people criticising our Protector, talking badly about high lamas and at the same time, being very disrespectful to His Holiness.
Hey there DD-
Sorry if I kicked off a fuss here, I meant noob kind of teasing /affectionately, not particularly disparagingly, please don't be discouraged if people are tough on you! Ha ha!
Anyway, everyone is here because we've had it with the DL. (I don't refer to him as "His Holiness" because I find that mawkish and overblown, and I don't find him to be particularly holy, no offense intended...)
oh sorry, you have had it with people criticizing our protector and also criticizing the DL. I fist thought you were saying you had had it with the DL criticizing our protector, which made sense to me.
It doesn't make sense to me that we should not criticize Mr DL, because his actions have invited this criticism. Why should anyone criticize the protector? Really no reason for it, so I'm not into that, but can we criticize the DL? Sure. For example, I was there at any protest I could make it to, shouting for the DL to stop lying. Why? Because he is lying. Of course I can prove this. Is it disrespectful to call someone out on a lie? I really don't see how that follows.MAybe you would have preferred that we discussed our differences in other ways, such as privately, and of course, so would we. Trust, it was hot out there, and yelling at the DL does not generally increase ones popularity given that the DL is uncritically and for no good reason regarded by the masses as the incarnation of perfection itself.
Unfortunately, after years of trying a more concilliatory approach, we were denied at every turn by the Dalai Lama. The choices left to us were to be quiet and allow it, or speak up. We chose the latter.
If you think that means we were disrespecting this person of great holiness, then you will not find many allies here, except for the ones you came in with. For the record, to me this does not mean that YOU should be quiet, I encourage you to voice your views here, if that is your wish. I am all for dissent and discussion, and would never try to shut you up. In fact, for a long time I held the view that you hold now, and I remember how painful it was to me to try to hold this view and to try to make sense of what was happening from this tortured perspective in which everything had to be good, and argument or disagreement were to be avoided at all costs.
In any case, I generally expect people to earn respect, and the DL gets precious little from me. I think he is a confused person trying unite politics and Dharma, but giving politics the upper hand. To my view, his project is doomed, and i will do my best to prevent him from taking our lineage along on his ride down.
Anyway, I think the "keep quiet and focus on our practice" advice applies more to those vehemently against or for the practice because there's just no balance in those views and it doesn't serve anyone. In fact, for a lot of newbies who have just come in on the issue, it becomes even more confusing and might even turn them away from Buddhism (just look at A Great Deception - if that was the first 'dharma' book I read, I wouldn't want to be Buddhist).
This is a good point, and bears discussion, and has been discussed for a long time here, which is why you see many responses to your posts that run "THAT old argument again....!"
Those who are "vehemently for" will not be quiet because to be vehemently for the practices of one's lineage is what is is to be a Buddhist, in my view. I think you miss the middle way by a mile if you think that we need balance in terms of accepting or rejecting the views of our spiritual guides. As for those who are vehemently against, I agree, they should keep quiet and focus on their practice, as our practice has nothing to do with them, and of course, does not harm them in any way.
You know what? Very good point re "If DL pretends to make war, we should do the same." - I never thought about it that way! That's definitely something I'll keep in mind...
Yeah, cool, I though it was a good point too. To me, this is where your argument gets all foggy. It seems that this conflict is spreading the dharma of our protector throughout the world, etc etc , multiple exclamation points hooray etc. and yet you don't want ot participate in it. Does that make sense? It seems like even you don't take your view seriously, and the result is that others don't either.
Why wouldn't your motivation be pure? This conflict spreads the dharma, DL is Avalokita, he (wink wink) opposes the practice...go on, tell him he's wrong! give him an argument that he can shoot down so you can make another point....maybe we can get in Newsweek again!
Headline: "Buddhists are insane, and they worship spirits! Dalai lama is a political monster, and the Dorje Shugdens are a murderous ghould worshipping cult! long live the Dharma!.....Next up, Brad and Angelina area actually Zombies from outer space."
Surely this is good for the holy Dharma of Buddha Shakayamuni and Je Tsongkhapa? So go on.....
But of course you don't, which gives lie to the idea that you believe that th is conflict is helpful.
Am I misrepresenting your views? Perhaps it is just The Holy One who should spread the news, Dorje Shugden is an evil wraith, did you hear? Purge the monasteries! Anyone following the tradition of their spiritual guide must break, if they were DS followers. we'll keep quiet, and gradually our practice will disappear. First from the Tibetan world, then gradually as we become pariahs, for m the western world as well.
well, It's not going to happen. Not while we have breath.
So, if the conflict should stop, only one person can stop it. Perhaps this seems extreme to you, and that I am not taking both sides into account, but I challenge you to make a coherent case for this view, because it can't be done. It is sentimental fiddle-faddle.
So do. Keep it in mind. In fact, have a good think about it, and report you findings, I find the discussion enlivening.
but it doesn't mean I'll ever talk bad about the Dalai Lama. I can't, the karmic reprecussion for me would be too great because I don't know if my motivation is pure! (I can say it's pure but whether it really is, is a different story!) Likewise for those who criticise him, perhaps?
You write as though some one were trying to make YOU speak out against the DL. Where are you getting this idea? Sounds like you have a spiritual guide and a practice, so off you go! If you don't want to say the DL is naughty, by all means, keep your head down. But don't be surprised if you meet some ...uh, strong responses here when you try to encourage others to keep their voices down.
ok, nice rhetorical move in that last sentence. You can't talk bad about the DL becasue you don't know that your motivations are pure. The karmic repercussions might be terrible in that case.....those who critcize him perhaps also don't know if their motivations are pure...hmmmmm.... it's all a bit ....subtle...let's just state it out clearly shall we?
"Even though you may SAY your motives are pure, whether they are or not is different story, really you can't know. If you don't know if you have pure motives and you criticize The Holiness, the kamic repercussions could be terrible. so be quiet. for your own sake."
how's that, ok?
I think you haven't taken into account that Buddhists who protest the most famous Buddhist figure in the world have, or course, thought through the karma of it. Don't be condescending, please. Our karma is ours, yours is yours. If you fear for us, pray for us. I for one will take any help I can get. For most, our own spiritual Guides have blessed our endeavors, either directly or tacitly by not trying to stop them, which they could in an instant by moving thier little finger. We actually respect our spiritual teachers.
I have heard that Dagom Rinpoche said that The DL is sick and requires a great healing of the mind. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso clearly is ok with his students protesting, he asked them to. Some of the gang from Trijang Buddhist institute, including Lamas, tulkus and Geshes were there, protesting away. The Gangchen crew seems to be down..has your teacher asked you to keep quiet? If so, please follow his advice, but don't worry about us, and please don't try to silence us.
Trijang Dorjechang, your own lama's guru, who according to Zong Rinpoche is the "director of us all," said that "Even these days, some suspect those who rely upon and propitiate Gyalchen of conjusring ghosts, but it is the babbling talk of those who dont understand the definitive meaning."
I don't know about you, but I feel that. All the way in my gut.
In fact, for a lot of newbies who have just come in on the issue, it becomes even more confusing and might even turn them away from Buddhism (just look at A Great Deception - if that was the first 'dharma' book I read, I wouldn't want to be Buddhist).
hey, I'm with you on that one. the whole thing is disturbing and confusing for the noobs. I myself spent many years with my underwear all in a knot over it, scared to engage in practice and trust my Spiritual Guide, too connected to my teachers and in love with the dharma to leave and find a new teacher. Years. Literally, years. Sometimes weeping in confusion, so trust me , I get it.
what I have come to see through my investigations (years....literally) is that those who meet the book early in their career either won't care (I was so surprised to see that many people have very little investment in the DL, what they want is the DHARMA) or will struggle like me. Perhaps they will be put off the Gelug tradition, so they'll go find a nice Nyingma lama, hopefully a nonpolitical one who is not bound to TGIE, and practice away. To my mind, that's fantastic. Perhaps a lovely Skaya or Kagyu teacher is for them, maybe Zen or Shambhala, maybe pure land..... but in general, it won't stop them wanting to be Buddhists, so no worries there.
If it is confusing for them,then that is a shame, but again, there is no solution in allowing the Ganden tradition to be destroyed. I think the solution is for the Dalai Lama to....stop lying, and to give religious freedom. That he does not is the part that is really confusing, if you think about it.
all the best! :)
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HA HA! How did this view that DS rescued the DL just to protect Trijang Rinpoche become gospel in a day or so? It's an interepretation of one sentence from Trijang Rinpoche
"In answer, he said that since the enemies of the teachings, the Chinese Communists, intended to soon carry out evil plans, that not only was it of the utmost importance that the Dalai Lama and ourselves secretly leave for India, but that I, especially, could not remain in Tibet because I was so high-profile. He also said that it was very important to warn the Dalai Lama, that he would have to go and that there would definitely come a moment when he would be able to go. "
and it is one of many possible. for example, perhaps Dorje Shugden still had hopes the The DL would be a beneficial person. Things are of course not predetermined, that's why wise Lamas like Trijang invested so much (and, by his own statement, was so disappointed by DL's decisions)
If we start speaking as if we knowe why DS did this or that even though we actually have no idea, our arguments will be less and less well founded, and will appear like "truth-making" to others.
not only was it OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE of the DL to make it out, but Trijang especially must make it out because of his high profile. In other words, he would likely be tortured to death. It doesn't say, it is of utmost importance that Trijang R makes it out, and the best way to accomplish that is to get the DL to go. This is an interpretation, and a hopeful one at that.
my pennies.
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BTW, i know who the noobs are (at least some), and they are at least two, mates, so stop saying they are the same person. same ip means same computer, not same person. g'day!
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Crazycloud,
Weren't you the one who started this thread? If you already knew they were all using the same computer, why plant the seeds of suspicion?
???
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Crazycloud,
Weren't you the one who started this thread? If you already knew they were all using the same computer, why plant the seeds of suspicion?
???
I did start the thread, have subsequently discovered who some of them are, and found out they were using the same computer by reading it here.
btw, of course I will not revel anyone's identity, people's privacy is their own business.
Moreover, I do not necessarily think there is anything wrong with a bunch of people sharing a view and joining a forum in order to make a case for that view. I was just trying to point out that something is going on, and we need to keep an eye... in particular, I think we should watch our speech, as newer people may not be able to differentiate strong words from anger. One may feel "that is their problem," but if these are our vajra brothers and sisters, we should look out for them.
Not to censor, of course, but try to make sure you put in a few words to let people know they are welcome, whatever their view, and that they are respected. UNless of course it is a bunch of sock puppets come here to cause discord, in which case "Off with their socks!" I mean heads....! I mean...whatever.
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HA HA! How did this view that DS rescued the DL just to protect Trijang Rinpoche become gospel in a day or so? It's an interepretation of one sentence from Trijang Rinpoche
"In answer, he said that since the enemies of the teachings, the Chinese Communists, intended to soon carry out evil plans, that not only was it of the utmost importance that the Dalai Lama and ourselves secretly leave for India, but that I, especially, could not remain in Tibet because I was so high-profile. He also said that it was very important to warn the Dalai Lama, that he would have to go and that there would definitely come a moment when he would be able to go. "
and it is one of many possible. for example, perhaps Dorje Shugden still had hopes the The DL would be a beneficial person. Things are of course not predetermined, that's why wise Lamas like Trijang invested so much (and, by his own statement, was so disappointed by DL's decisions)
If we start speaking as if we knowe why DS did this or that even though we actually have no idea, our arguments will be less and less well founded, and will appear like "truth-making" to others.
not only was it OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE of the DL to make it out, but Trijang especially must make it out because of his high profile. In other words, he would likely be tortured to death. It doesn't say, it is of utmost importance that Trijang R makes it out, and the best way to accomplish that is to get the DL to go. This is an interpretation, and a hopeful one at that.
my pennies.
In addition to this point I'm also wondering whether it is safe to assume that the words/actions of any oracle claimed to be a Shugden oracle can be automatically assumed to be the actual words or actions of the holy Protector himself?
Give the obvious potential for abusing the oracle system (we DS practitioners are on the receiving end of one such case), surely it may not be a safe assumption, especially if, on the basis of such assumption, we're going to start trying to figure out DS' motivation and feelings towards DL by piecing together accounts of various oracular pronouncements.
I realize many people have had very helpful and beneficial encounters with Dorje Shugden oracles and i'm not suggesting that these aren't qualified and pure - I'm just questioning whether 'the oracle said it' is automatically a valid reason to prove 'this is how Dorje Shugden views the situation'. Especially if we weren't even there!
I know the Trijang Rinpoche account is 100% reliable, but I'm just talking generally.
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I love the Dalai Lama. That's one reason why I stand up & shout 'STOP LYING!'. Isn't that what a kind person does for someone they care about who is acting badly, when all else fails? Has anyone ever stood up to the DL since people started worshipping him when he was 3? Maybe Venerable Trijang. I imagine the poor DL didn't have the benefit of being told off when he was naughty (except maybe by his tutors again). This current compassionate telling off may be over 70 years too late, but better late than never. Then there's the compassion for all the living beings who are suffering because of his persecution and all others in samsara we can not help if our lineage is destroyed... It's compassion all round really! No one's excluded.
On a related note, one of the first arguments I heard against the demo's was that we were engaging in 'wrong speech'. 'if your lama's knew what they were talking about they would have told you this' someone said to me. I wasn't in a position to respond, but I knew the answer: 'if your lama's knew what they were talking about they would have told you right speech depends principally on your intention, not the volume of your voice or your choice of words.' Neither is virtue measured by wearing robes, holding a title, or even necessarily by speaking Dharma. If the mind behind those actions of body & speech is deluded, then the action is 'wrong'. As has already been pointed out in this thread, aversion to volume and hard words may just be self cherishing. The DL plays up to this simplistic naive view of the world with his easy to digest political / spiritual sound bites. The whole 'the DL is working with DS' thing stinks of such soporific platitudes. As has also been expressed here, if 'that' theory is true then it is still apropriate to protest. It is my belief that if any individual really had a profound enough realisation of pure view to genuinely hold the DL as a pure being, they'd also have the wisdom to keep that view to themselves, seeing (amongst other things) that propogating it openly would just feed the mistaken view of those who grasp at Buddhism as being the exclusive realm of people who display rigid external criteria. Those criteria may broadly apply, but without understanding the real importance of the underlying intention such views can degenerate the Dharma by supporting blind faith & the development of attachment. Those are minds which have helped us get into this mess & so need to be avoided, not encouraged. Be careful good hearted but naive would be mediators! If you wait 'till the persecutors are knocking at your door you may find your 'pure' views don't protect you from suffering - a sure sign that you never truly held such pure view at all.
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From how i see it hating HHDL and hating Dorje Shudgen is the same thing; they both work for the Dharma in their own way, and us hating HHDL the way his supporters hate Dorje Shudgen makes us equal to the haters of Dorje Shudgen as well.
Dear Ensapa,
So, you're another new emanation!
Why do you feel the need to post the same stuff under so many different names? Are you afraid of being in the minority? :)
We don't hate the Dalai Lama, but to claim that the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are performing the same function is the root of your wrong view. To use a 'Pabongkha-ism', it's like comparing a lame horse with a thoroughbred stallion.
How can you claim that someone who is harming others is a Dharma practitioner, much less a Buddha? If you check, the greatness of the Dharma in these times is due to Dorje Shugden protecting Trijang Rinpoche and the precious Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa which has spread throughout the West since 1959. On the other hand, all the Dalai Lama has done is make a big name for himself using his Guru's teachings, persecute his Guru's disciples and squabble over Tibetan politics, having totally failed to serve his people or accomplish the goals of Tibetan independence or autonomy they all long for. You may say that his failure to accomplish his political goals are not his fault, but he certainly has choice over how he promotes or suppresses Dorje Shugden practice and he's obviously made the wrong choice.
These are the facts, not hatred. See things as they are, not as you'd like them to be.
and yet you turn a blind eye to how he supports the other lineages. whats with this one sided view?
so is this forum here to whine about how bad the Dalai Lama treated the practitioners of Dorje Shudgen even when history shows that his liaisons have misused his name? I'm not surprised that at the end its due to deluded and political ministers who cooked up the whole Dorje Shudgen saga. Then when that happens you're all gonna look so stupid.
So Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche also practiced Shudgen but i dont see them trashing the Dalai Lama the way you do? Pabongkha's children? dont sully his name like that.
I like it how people who have no dharma at all assume that directing hate at the Dalai Lama is Dharma practice.
Some Lama friends of with inside info, who happens to be working closely with the Dalai Lama said that the Dalai Lama will unban the practice -- soon. When that happens are we gonna disband because these accusations are going to look so stupid.
and again, you guys arent here to promote Shudgen, you're just here to promote hatred against the Dalai Lama. How much did the chinese govt pay you guys to do this?
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Hey, Ensapa, what's your IP address? :P I see you registered on the same day as DharmaDefender.
It was Shantideva who said to have no patience with delusions.
then who said its allright to make accusations against people? he he.
after all, i'm not the one filled with fear and insecurity and being paranoid about people.
so whats this forum about, to promote hate against the Dalai Lama or Shudgen? can anyone tell me? because only 1 can be done at a time.
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Dear Forum Members.
"ILOVEDS" is in no way another identity, i am not dharmadefender, dsnowlion, or anyone else. I am glad to know now that this forum is run by people who have taken a stand for our protector and I am glad.
But i am disappointed to know now that there is a view of anti HHDL. I hope I can learn something new about my protector here, where else is there more information on the web.
One day there will be a site without the politics and more the pratice.
Thanks
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and yet you turn a blind eye to how he supports the other lineages. whats with this one sided view?
In order to support other lineages he has to tear apart the Gelug?!
so is this forum here to whine about how bad the Dalai Lama treated the practitioners of Dorje Shudgen even when history shows that his liaisons have misused his name? I'm not surprised that at the end its due to deluded and political ministers who cooked up the whole Dorje Shudgen saga. Then when that happens you're all gonna look so stupid.
I'm not whining, there has been "requests" to support the reasons why we think the DL's ban is not actually helping the spread of the Dharma in disguise, so we had to state these. Was it the political ministers that came out and gave emotional speeches, come on, all the proof is on youtube.
So Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche also practiced Shudgen but i dont see them trashing the Dalai Lama the way you do? Pabongkha's children? dont sully his name like that.
Because their previous incarnations not living anymore?!
I like it how people who have no dharma at all assume that directing hate at the Dalai Lama is Dharma practice.
So by simply stating cases of wrong doing is hate?
Some Lama friends of with inside info, who happens to be working closely with the Dalai Lama said that the Dalai Lama will unban the practice -- soon. When that happens are we gonna disband because these accusations are going to look so stupid.
Somehow I don't believe this, but if it's true it won't bother me to "be a loser".
DL only said "dont practice" he never said anything about burning down houses of people who do; it was the tibetans who twisted his words and did those negative actions in his name.
especially when they're not living anymore you can see their biographies, that they never ONCE speak ill of the Dalai Lama. not like some of us here.
if a person has both good and bad qualities and you only focus on the bad, that sounds like hate to me.
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Ensapa got the point I was trying to make... I hope the forum is not about hate bashing. There is karma involved.
I remember what happened with e-sangha, another online forum... the people running it became self appointed judge, jury and lynch mob regarding Lamas and practices. Look at the karma now... the site is attacked and now offline.
I hope that doesn't happen with this protector site. Admin's take this as a warning. Freedom of speech is great, but don't own your opinions, don't be attached, opinions are not permanent.
Its one thing to bad mouth a person who is ignorant doesn't know dharma etc. but to bad mouth a teacher of the dharma has karma no matter how right you think you are. Even worse if you have taken refuge in the dharma, if you can bad mouth HHDL then stop practicing buddhism, stop your relationship with your teacher, you know more than them so you don't need the dharma... come to think of it, you don't need Dorje Shugden as you are saying your as high as your teacher and hence your protector.
Trinley Kelsang: yes you can be loser if the story turns out to be false. But your karma will still be full of schismatic actions if ban lifted or not.
Your actions are still directed at a person who brings more people to dharma than ourselves ever could. Your karma is not as small as just being wrong. Think deeper on this!
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Dear Beggar,
Welcome back! Why do you need to hide behind multiple IDs such as 'iloveds', 'Vajraprotector', Dharmadefender', 'pathseeker', and 'dsnowlion'?
Do you think that posting the same arguments over and over again under different names will give the impression of widespread acceptance of your view of 'Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden spreading Dharma together' and perhaps convince people to ignore the facts and adopt a wrong view?
HA HA HA!
Sorry to spoil the fun but I am NOT the same person as dharmadefender, iloveds etc etc. DON'T ASSUME as it makes an A$$ of u and me. (opps)! It makes me wonder is this how the whole idea that the Dalai Lama is a fake etc. all came about --- born from assumptions??? Hmmmm.... sad are we running out of points to debate that we need to talk about people's identity now. Who cares?!
However, the bigger picture is .... by us screaming Dalai Lama is a Liar etc etc etc, will it make situations far more worst for our Tibetan brothers and sisters practicing as they clamp down harder or will it help lift the ban??? What do we want the ban to be lifted or the ban to be tightened? Are we here to say he is wrong, he is right or are we here to clear people's doubts about Dorje Shugden?
Wrong view? Then aren't we also creating wrong view by condemning the Dalai Lama, isn't that destroying other people's faith in Buddhism / Dharma as well as someone's guru devotion, in this instance the Dalai Lama, who i'm sure is guru to hundreds of thousands. Wrong view plus wrong view is wrong view anyway. And what makes one think our view is right view anyway. Even if you have the right motivation but if the actions carried out is unskillful and creates more chaos, drives people away from the Dharma, break people's samaya, spiritual path, cause schism then it is still wrong. Is this what practicing Dharma all about? How sure are we to say our motivation is 100% stainless. Can we give teachings to thousands of people like the Dalai Lama? What are our results to show we are consistent in our right motivation? No one will know but the Buddhas and karma does.
I like what iloveds said. It is a dharmic, non voilent perspective and it is something I would adopt! and I am not the same person as iloveds and I do love ds!
And saying that Dorje Shugden asked Dalai Lama to leave just because he was asked is just so lame. Now we're also underestimating Dorje Shugden? Dorje Shugden main role is to protect the Dharma and spread Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings. So if the Dalai Lama is going to destroy Lama Tsongkhapa's teaching then why would our Dharma Protector advise him to leave and spread Dharma to the world?? And look at him today has he done that? I think so.
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Dear Ensapa, et al,
How naive do you believe the Dalai Lama to be? When he giggles and pretends that he doesn't understand English, everyone goes 'ahhhhhh, how sweet!', but he understands far more than he lets on.
Do you believe that he didn't know that WSS were chanting 'Dalai Lama, stop lying' and 'Dalai Lama, give religious freedom' and why? Do you think he exists in a bubble, unaware of anything that's going on in the world while his evil ministers incite ostracism, violence and hatred? I think you're in denial. The Dalai Lama himself praised the Gelugpa abbots for expelling Dorje Shugden practising monks, he's endorsing and encouraging their actions every step of the way. He doesn't care where these monks live. He simply DOESN'T CARE. That's not an example I want to see from a Buddhist, let alone someone who is touted as the 'Buddha of Compassion'.
Even if you believe that the Dalai Lama has nothing to do with the draconian application of the Dorje Shugden ban, surely the Dalai Lama knows the suffering that his ban has caused, the violence and ostracism? Surely he knows that families have been torn apart? If he doesn't know, he's not in touch with what's happening in the community he's supposed to lead and he's not much of a leader. Given that he knows what's going on, why has he never told his people in public talks to be kind to Shugden people, saying that they are deluded and need love, respect and help? He doesn't do it because that would be talking about the elephant in the room - that there is a ban and that this ban is causing immense suffering to his people.
Please don't delude yourself....if you really think the Dalai Lama is the Buddha of Compassion, doesn't he know what's going on? Wouldn't he do something to stop it? Either he isn't the Buddha of Compassion or he doesn't care. I think both are true.
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Dear Ensapa, et al,
How naive do you believe the Dalai Lama to be? When he giggles and pretends that he doesn't understand English, everyone goes 'ahhhhhh, how sweet!', but he understands far more than he lets on.
Do you believe that he didn't know that WSS were chanting 'Dalai Lama, stop lying' and 'Dalai Lama, give religious freedom' and why? Do you think he exists in a bubble, unaware of anything that's going on in the world while his evil ministers incite ostracism, violence and hatred? I think you're in denial. The Dalai Lama himself praised the Gelugpa abbots for expelling Dorje Shugden practising monks, he's endorsing and encouraging their actions every step of the way. He doesn't care where these monks live. He simply DOESN'T CARE. That's not an example I want to see from a Buddhist, let alone someone who is touted as the 'Buddha of Compassion'.
Even if you believe that the Dalai Lama has nothing to do with the draconian application of the Dorje Shugden ban, surely the Dalai Lama knows the suffering that his ban has caused, the violence and ostracism? Surely he knows that families have been torn apart? That being so, why has he never told his people in public talks to be kind to Shugden people, saying that they are deluded and need love, respect and help? He doesn't do it because that would be talking about the elephant in the room - that there is a ban and that this ban is causing immense suffering to his people.
Please don't delude yourself....if you really think the Dalai Lama is the Buddha of Compassion, doesn't he know what's going on? Wouldn't he do something to stop it? Either he isn't the Buddha of Compassion or he doesn't care. I think both are true.
and this gives us the right to step on him?
no matter how much you hate him, he still has done more for Dharma than any of us could ever do. So when you have reached his level, feel free to step on him and call him whatever you like. until then, keep your hate to yourself :P
i'm not as naive as you think hehe.
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and this gives us the right to step on him?
no matter how much you hate him, he still has done more for Dharma than any of us could ever do. So when you have reached his level, feel free to step on him and call him whatever you like. until then, keep your hate to yourself :P
i'm not as naive as you think hehe.
You simply failed to address my questions. I asked you to consider, logically, why the Dalai Lama doesn't do anything to alleviate the suffering of the ban he's caused if he really is Buddhist or even a Buddha of Compassion. Instead, all you did was accuse me of hatred. It seems that you cannot distinguish between strong words and hatred. No one here hates the Dalai Lama, but there's no doubt whatsoever that he's the source of the 'Dorje Shugden problem' through his mixing of religion and politics. It's this problem that 'a Great Deception' addresses.
Are you advocating non-action? Do you think that doing nothing will protect the Dharma and lift the ban?
I'm afraid your view is irrational, given that the evidence does not support it, and harmful, in that doing nothing in this situation is just what is needed to destroy the Dharma.
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and this gives us the right to step on him?
no matter how much you hate him, he still has done more for Dharma than any of us could ever do. So when you have reached his level, feel free to step on him and call him whatever you like. until then, keep your hate to yourself :P
i'm not as naive as you think hehe.
You simply failed to address my questions. I asked you to consider, logically, why the Dalai Lama doesn't do anything to alleviate the suffering of the ban he's caused if he really is Buddhist or even a Buddha of Compassion. Instead, all you did was accuse me of hatred. It seems that you cannot distinguish between strong words and hatred. No one here hates the Dalai Lama, but there's no doubt whatsoever that he's the source of the 'Dorje Shugden problem' through his mixing of religion and politics. It's this problem that 'a Great Deception' addresses.
Are you advocating non-action? Do you think that doing nothing will protect the Dharma and lift the ban?
I'm afraid your view is irrational, given that the evidence does not support it, and harmful, in that doing nothing in this situation is just what is needed to destroy the Dharma.
because its silly and shallow.
i'm speculating that it could be because DL thinks that some karmic debts must be paid. 2ndly, maybe there's something more to those people who "practiced" Shudgen and "presecuted" or whatever it is. I'm not DL i wouldnt know. But many lamas near DL and close to Trijang, Ling etc that do not comment about the issue (I'm guessing that they support Shudgen) dont seem to blame DL for the whole thing but rather the people who twist DL's words into hatred. They saw it as a way to expose the harmful mentalities that most tibetans have to purify it. In fact many tibetan lamas i have known from Gaden are pretty much nonchalant about the fact that many tibetans are stubborn and crude which is why DL is there to tame that kind of rowdy behavior and they're like "whatever he does to tame them down, i respect and i wont comment." even though most of them do practice hehe.
in fact many of them in Gaden worship Panchen Sonam Dragpa. Last time i visited last month there was a huge image of him in the debate courtyard. I'm guessing..............hmmm
maybe these lamas know more than us than to make hateful assumptions? :P
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Dear Ensapa,
Please don't take things personally, I've got nothing against you as you are a Dharma brother and fellow Dorje Shugden practitioner - it's just that your arguments make no sense.
It's very good news that, in your experience, many have not abandoned their Shugden practice. No wonder the Dalai Lama is so upset and threatening to sack the abbots all the time! ;D
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The previous abbots of both Gaden Jangtse and Shartse were TOLD OPENLY DURING A MEETING TO RESIGN since they don't fall in line with the policies on Dorje Shugden by Dalai lama two years back.
The Dalai Lama told the Jangtze abbot that he is two headed literally. Which is one head says ok to Dalai lama, the other head doesn't surpress the Dorje Shugden practice in Jangtse and hence he should resign. The abbot did resign and yes he is a Dorje Shugden practitioner whose teacher was Trijang Rinpoche.
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Dear Ensapa,
Please don't take things personally, I've got nothing against you as you are a Dharma brother and fellow Dorje Shugden practitioner - it's just that your arguments make no sense.
It's very good news that, in your experience, many have not abandoned their Shugden practice. No wonder the Dalai Lama is so upset and threatening to sack the abbots all the time! ;D
nah, most of them seem to imply that the REAL target is the tibetan cabinet and the stubborn people in it thats causing DL to be very upset. i think from this clue we could conclude 1 or 2 things...
well i'm not here to argue, i'm just here to share with yall on whats really going on :P
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The previous abbots of both Gaden Jangtse and Shartse were TOLD OPENLY DURING A MEETING TO RESIGN since they don't fall in line with the policies on Dorje Shugden by Dalai lama two years back.
The Dalai Lama told the Jangtze abbot that he is two headed literally. Which is one head says ok to Dalai lama, the other head doesn't surpress the Dorje Shugden practice in Jangtse and hence he should resign. The abbot did resign and yes he is a Dorje Shugden practitioner whose teacher was Trijang Rinpoche.
many seem to consider that "firing" as the same of how panchen lama was forcibly kicked out of the monastery many lifetimes ago -- a "staged" show for a bigger reason...at least thats what they mentioned when i asked them about this.
the less wise ones seem to be very agitated tho, as in the anti Shudgen monks. haha.
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Ensapa et al. -
i thought you were simply naive but i'm sorry to say that i can't help but feel you're being disingenuous now.
i will be delighted if and when the DL "unbans" the practice and will immediately stop speaking out against him, as will all the WSS etc., as they have stated repeatedly.
until then i will use all means at my disposal to discredit and disempower him, this being the only course of action he has left me with, not having agreed to engage in any debate or discussion.
this has got nothing to do with hatred. you see hatred and an anti-Dalai Lama agenda where there is none. stop being wilfully stupid. we do not hate the Dalai Lama; we are trying to stop him from creating any more division and destruction to this holy lineage for the sake of all our kind mothers - yes, including him.
of all those he's harming, he's harming himself the worst.
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Ensapa et al. -
i thought you were simply naive but i'm sorry to say that i can't help but feel you're being disingenuous now.
i will be delighted if and when the DL "unbans" the practice and will immediately stop speaking out against him, as will all the WSS etc., as they have stated repeatedly.
until then i will use all means at my disposal to discredit and disempower him, this being the only course of action he has left me with, not having agreed to engage in any debate or discussion.
this has got nothing to do with hatred. you see hatred and an anti-Dalai Lama agenda where there is none. stop being wilfully stupid. we do not hate the Dalai Lama; we are trying to stop him from creating any more division and destruction to this holy lineage for the sake of all our kind mothers - yes, including him.
of all those he's harming, he's harming himself the worst.
he looks pretty happy to me. if Shudgen cant control him and you wanna control DL, thats a bit weird...hmm lemme try and process
i divided by 0!!
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To all the new members (those who signed up in the last month)
This is just my view: If you don't think there's anything wrong with the Dalai Lama, then you're just as fooled as everyone else who blindly follows him, even though you claim to love Dorje Shugden.
The Dalai Lama doesn't love you, make no mistake. He doesn't want you and he doesn't want you to attend his teachings. You're an outcast, an untouchable as far as he's concerned. He wants to destroy your lineage and encourage you to break your spiritual commitments. That's no reason not to love him, of course, because as Geshe Langri Tangpa said:
Even if someone I have helped
And of whom I had great hopes,
Nevertheless harms me without any reason
May I see him as my holy Spiritual Guide.
but attitude and actions of the Dalai Lama are not those of a qualified spiritual guide. I hope you will see that one day.
What I'm seeing here is a group of people who have recently joined and who are subtly undermining the work of the Western Shugden Society (which includes both Westerners and Tibetans) by criticising their actions and the book 'A Great Deception'. Well, if you think you can do better to protect Dorje Shugden practitioners, go ahead. It takes a lot of courage to take on the karma of criticising the Dalai Lama for the sake of protecting the lineage. All you are advocating is inaction. While I respect your right to hold that view, I don't think it's going to help anyone. Like Atisha's Cook, I do hope you are not being disingenuous and that this isn't some kind of rear guard action by the Dalai Lama's supporters to undermine the WSS.
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Hear hear !!! Well spoken Lineageholder, I completely agree with you.
Thanks for your clear words !
Vajra
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Clear words maybe, but clear view, i think not. The verse quoted was in the context of the 8 verses of thought transformation. I think you missed the point of this verse, the meaning of spiritual guide is that this person gives you a chance to practice your compassion the most with this person and hence the person is guiding you spiritually.
i have never heard of anyone whose compassion is put to the test with the nicest person on earth. Compassion can only be practised with someone who will never appreciate what you do for them. Such as DS, no matter how many people put him down, try to destroy him, DS will always help you no matter what. But only if your practicing , or spreading the dharma.
My 2 cents again.
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iloveds (& the rest?) -
just in case - just in case - you are in reality this naive, i will say it again: we have compassion for the Dalai Lama. in that sense he is like a Spiritual Guide giving us an object of practice. however, his actions are completely deluded and extremely harmful; they are in no way and by no means the actions of a Buddha.
therefore, by convention, the Dalai Lama is not a Buddha. he is, to all intents and purposes, an extremely deluded individual who has without any possible debate or doubt created one of the biggest schisms ever seen in this world within the Sangha.
you are a fool to keep talking in such faux-conciliatory terms. your actions help no-one. please: wise up or shut up.
sorry to be strong but, like the Dalai Lama you seem to want to defend, you have failed to listen to reason thus far.
with compassion,
Atisha's cook
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okay so because he banned Shudgen he's extremely harmful irregardless of his work in rebuilding the other lineages in Tibet or spreading Buddhism in the world? I dunno sounds a weeeeeeee bit biased to me - but that's just me.
Can we like, talk about Shudgen without dragging DL into everything? Sure in 1 incarnation they may have shared a body (the incarnation as Kedrup Je) but no need to drag DL into this
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Can we like, talk about Shudgen without dragging DL into everything? Sure in 1 incarnation they may have shared a body (the incarnation as Kedrup Je) but no need to drag DL into this
We could talk about the good qualities of Dorje Shugden without dragging the Dalai Lama into it, but as to 'there's no need to drag DL into this', it's somewhat impossible as he's the source of the 'Dorje Shugden controversy' problem.
As for sharing the same body as Khedrubje, I don't think so. Geshe Kelsang has said that one of Trijang Dorjechang's previous incarnations was Khedrubje. He's a million miles away from the Dalai Lama in terms of views, intentions and actions.
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no, Ensapa, i do not think i am biased. you feel we should not criticise a person's harmful actions simply because he (is believed to have) previously engaged in positive actions? this is ridiculous.
if the Dalai Lama or anyone else does good, i will say he has done good. if he does evil, i will say he has done evil. this is not biased.
Hitler rebuilt his country's economy and provided prosperity to a large number of people who previously had none. when he later ordered the extermination of the Jews, were those who spoke out against him biased?
wake up. this is not Shangri la. you cannot have your cake and eat it: if Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, and if people have the right to worship him freely without doing harm to others, then the Dalai Lama is wrong to ban this worship, his speech is divisive and his actions are harmful, and it is our duty as Buddhists of this lineage to stop him.
Buddha and Mara are NOT spreading Dharma together. only Buddha does this. to claim otherwise is a pernicious wrong view. don't misuse the teachings on conventional truth to spread such harm.
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okay so because he banned Shudgen he's extremely harmful irregardless of his work in rebuilding the other lineages in Tibet or spreading Buddhism in the world? I dunno sounds a weeeeeeee bit biased to me - but that's just me.
Sure, everybody has good qualities... but still a murderer is a murderer, and a dictator is a dictator.
don't misuse the teachings on conventional truth to spread such harm.
As Nagarjuna said, a nihilist is incurable.
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Do we really need to stood as low as the pro Dalai Lama crowd and the TGIE who accuses our protector, our lineage masters, gurus and us? Yes it is very painful to just sit there and witness and not do anything. We should do something but without slandering anyone. I mean if we believe in Dharma, hence we believe in Karma, hence their Karma will take care of them naturally, we don't need to collect negative karma like them as well.
With Gaden Trisur's defect to Shar gaden it already speaks volumes and in time they will see as more and more people will rise up and stand against this ban with kindness and compassion.
If we act like them, then what makes us different from them? We should educate them and show them the light if they are able to see. Use logic to debate instead of negativity. Go to the phayul forums and enlightened them :) they seriously need it!
Oh and check out the Dixie Chicks video on this Home Page. It is our anthem! A song most apt for our cry :)
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so by venting our hatred against DL and whining about what he did to Shudgen, we're better than his anti Shudgen goons in what way? IF we hate DL the way those goons hate Shudgen, we're the same, only thing different is the object.
i dont know why am i still talking about this and not talking about the good qualities and benefits of Shudgen's practice.
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This is not about 'Hate', as you keep saying from your perspective.
Sticks and Stones can,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
people who criticize Shudgen dont hate him too. DL said he dosent hate Shudgen....
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"has anyone seen the anti Shudgen propaganda that the Nyigmas put up? Including a modified version of Dorje Drollo stepping on Shudgen, plus a car sticker of a naked and flayed Shudgen, tied up with magic strings with a scorpion stinging his head? whats up with those? i saw them on a recent trip to nepal."
Oh really!
(http://www.snowlionpub.com/data/img2/tgr7.jpg)
is it just me or is the man beneath Dorje Drollo resembling Shudgen, including the heart? hmmmmmm
(http://euronepaltrading.com/images/dorje-drollo-thangka-4.jpg)
and this one too. notice the hat. Dorje Drollo is supposed to step on a lady but in recent incarnations he steps on a monk with a circular hat which bears way too much resemblance to Shudgen.
The monastery near Guru Rinpoche's cave in nepal has a huge statue of Dorje Drollo stepping on a man that really resembles Shudgen. Go there and have a look if you do get a chance to go.
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I think there's two issues we're trying to battle here:
1) defend and protect DS practitioners?
2) critique Dalai Lama's actions (which is different from "criticise", mind you)
I think ultimately, we all just want to promote and defend Dorje Shugden practitioners and his very wonderful practice. We "fight" against the people who put us down or attack us or ban us or whatever, because we don't think it is right, or fair, or truthful in any way.
The best way to really promote our holy Protector & his practice, and to shut up those who are against DS practitioners is to be even kinder, even more compassionate, be an EVEN BETTER Dharma practitioner and uphold the teachings of our Lamas even stronger, achieve even greater mind transformation. The world will see this - they will look upon DS practitioners and realise that they are incredible people; effective, generous and beneficial practitioners and see that DS is, after all, something special and beneficial to look into. The best kind of "protest" we can make against Dalai Lama's ban and the anti-shugden perpetrators is to be even better than them. Kill them kindness, as it were.
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The previous abbots of both Gaden Jangtse and Shartse were TOLD OPENLY DURING A MEETING TO RESIGN since they don't fall in line with the policies on Dorje Shugden by Dalai lama two years back.
The Dalai Lama told the Jangtze abbot that he is two headed literally. Which is one head says ok to Dalai lama, the other head doesn't surpress the Dorje Shugden practice in Jangtse and hence he should resign. The abbot did resign and yes he is a Dorje Shugden practitioner whose teacher was Trijang Rinpoche.
Traditionally, the abbots of the big Gelug monasteries have the blessings of the Dalai Lama to hold that position. That extends to the positions of Sharpa Choeje and Jangtse Choeje, and even the Gaden Tripa too. Must have been embarrasing to TGIE when Gaden Trisur Jetsun Lungrik Namyal decided to switch sides to Shar Gaden.
Oh well, more power to Dorje Shugden and his practitioners! I hope this current abbot of Gaden Shartse and many other lamas in the word stand up for the beliefs...
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Traditionally, the abbots of the big Gelug monasteries have the blessings of the Dalai Lama to hold that position. That extends to the positions of Sharpa Choeje and Jangtse Choeje, and even the Gaden Tripa too.
Hello Duldzin-
How do you come by this information, please?
From my understanding, Geshe Lharampas and Tsogrampas from the big three monasteries enter Gyume or Gyuto as Geshe Karampas. Once they pass their tantric debates, they become Ngagrampas. From among these, three disciplinarians are chosen each year. From among the former disciplinarians, a Lama Umdze is chosen. The Lama Umdze hold his position for three years, then becomes Abbot. The senior-most retired Abbot of Gyumay becomes the Jangtse Chojey, and the senior-most retired Abbot of Gyuto becomes the Shartse Chojey. These two masters alternate in becoming the Ganden Tripa.
I have never heard that the Dalai Lama had anything to do with it. Once one is Lama Umdze, it is really a matter of fortune who becomes the Tri Rinpoche. Unless the DL chosses the Lama Umdze, he's not involved.
At least that is how it used to be. Now The DL just chooses who he likes.
I have a hard time believing that the sixth, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh or twelfth Dalai Lamas had anything whatsoever to do with this process, nor did the first through fourth. Do you have any information that the Fifth, Seventh or Thirteenth DID? Even if so, does that make it traditional?
interested,
CC
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Why it doesn't pay to either criticise the Dalai Lama OR Dorje Shugden
A very good post on why both the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden seem to contradict themselves and why, whichever side we choose to be on, we seem to break our samaya... there must be a bigger picture and THIS IS WHY: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=599.0
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whichever side we choose to be on, we seem to break our samaya
not at all: i have no samaya bond with the DL, and even if i had previously, his actions have shown him to no longer be an authentic Lama, if indeed he ever was.
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Traditionally, the abbots of the big Gelug monasteries have the blessings of the Dalai Lama to hold that position. That extends to the positions of Sharpa Choeje and Jangtse Choeje, and even the Gaden Tripa too.
Hello Duldzin-
How do you come by this information, please?
From my understanding, Geshe Lharampas and Tsogrampas from the big three monasteries enter Gyume or Gyuto as Geshe Karampas. Once they pass their tantric debates, they become Ngagrampas. From among these, three disciplinarians are chosen each year. From among the former disciplinarians, a Lama Umdze is chosen. The Lama Umdze hold his position for three years, then becomes Abbot. The senior-most retired Abbot of Gyumay becomes the Jangtse Chojey, and the senior-most retired Abbot of Gyuto becomes the Shartse Chojey. These two masters alternate in becoming the Ganden Tripa.
I have never heard that the Dalai Lama had anything to do with it. Once one is Lama Umdze, it is really a matter of fortune who becomes the Tri Rinpoche. Unless the DL chosses the Lama Umdze, he's not involved.
At least that is how it used to be. Now The DL just chooses who he likes.
I have a hard time believing that the sixth, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh or twelfth Dalai Lamas had anything whatsoever to do with this process, nor did the first through fourth. Do you have any information that the Fifth, Seventh or Thirteenth DID? Even if so, does that make it traditional?
interested,
CC
CC:
My apologies. Perhaps "traditional" is a poor choice of words. But it has applied to the past few Gaden Tripas as far as my research goes. What I personally find interesting is that many high lamas such as Gaden Trisur are all practising quietly underground. And in Gaden Trisur's case, the Dalai Lama still gives his blessings to ascend the highest position in the Gelug school.
Apart from Gaden Trisur, there are other tulkus of the Gelug school whose status are confirmed by Dalai Lama. Yet they also practice Dorje Shugden, albeit in secret. That makes Dalai Lama look silly as each of these practising lamas come out of the proverbial closet. Dalai Lama's critics would say that with his clairvoyance, he should have known already.
TK's post here gives a different perspective and view of what Dalai Lama and Shugden are actually doing.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=599.0