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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmaDefender on April 24, 2017, 11:17:29 PM
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Im referring to the one whos just passed away. Was anyone aware that Tsem Tulku is connected with him? A Tibetan contact just forwarded these images to me. Tsem Tulku with the Gaden Tripa before he was on the throne, those were taken outside Tsem Ladrang in Gaden Shartse. Then theres some recent photos of monks in Nepal doing prayers for him? Nowt idea what any of the writing below the portrait means but their from the same monastery in Tibet and clearly reconnected again in this life. Theres also pictures of a Setrap and Shugden mural in Tsem Monastery.
But yeah, the 103rd Gaden Tripa Lobsang Tenzin who passed away recently came from Tsem Monastery. Its a small place, with around about 100 monks and it provides basic education for young monks before their further studies at two of the main Gelugpa monasteries: Gaden and Drepung. Learning, reading, writing, that sort of thing. And though their humble setup is relatively small, the monasterys become known for producing highly eminent monks. For example Gaden Shartses Khensur Jampa Yeshe Rinpoche who was one of Shartses previous abbots. This monastery, Tsem Monastery, has requested Tsem Tulku to visit many times and theyve been practising Shugden for many generations.
So what my contact told me is that Tsem Tulkus previous life was actually the 103rd Gaden Tripas uncle, and their from the Selsha clan. An interesting tidbit here is that Tsem Tulku is known as Selsha Kentrul in Yara, Tibet, since his previous incarnation was from that clan. And on his part, the 103rd Gaden Tripa was known as Gen Selsha cause he was from the same clan too. And since they came from the same monastery, clan and all that, turns out that the Gaden Tripa would visit Tsem Tulku, what with the personal family connection too.
And the 103rd Gaden Tripa is never going to tell you this but he even got sponsorship for his Labrang (household) from Tsem Tulku even though he knew Tsem Tulku is a Shugdenpa. At the time the Gaden Tripa was poor, he asked Tsem Tulku for help to raise construction funds for his Labrang. My contact told me that Tsem Tulku raised over 400,000 INR for the Gaden Tripa to build his house. Yeah thats right - the current house of the most recent Gaden Tripa was fully sponsored by Tsem Tulku. Didnt know that did you? 8) Tsem Tulku even found financial sponsorship for several of the Gaden Tripas personal students for many years, because the Gaden Tripa asked and because of their connection (familial, monastic). Tsem Tulku also found personal sponsors for the Gaden Tripa and sponsored his personal needs for many years.
Anyway, despite taking all of this help, the 103rd Gaden Tripa isnt beyond making some unbecoming remarks. The Gaden Tripa used to make regular visits Tsem Tulku at his home and on one of those trips, Tsem Tulku showed his altar to the Gaden Tripa. And despite knowing that Tsem Tulku is a devoted Shugden practitioner, the Gaden Tripa said he didnt believe in Gyenze.
But what are you going to do? Everyones free to say whatever they want. It didnt become an issue and their relationship continued until the ban on Dorje Shugden was enforced. It was only then, despite the help he had received, did the Gaden Tripa lessen his connection with Tsem Tulku. Oh yeah, and he didnt return any of the money or property offered to him by such a 'polluted' Shugden lama.
I will never understand this about them. Why hate the person practising Dorje Shugden but take their money? Tsem Tulku gave so much financial help to the Gaden Tripa. And when all of this help was taken, Dorje Shugden wasnt an issue... :-\
Addendum by moderator:
Something thats recently become a talked-about topic is the use of oracles in Tibetan Buddhism to identify tulkus, for advice, blessings, that sort of thing. The topic was brought up by a Westerner who said she doesnt believe in deities who enter oracles, because Buddhas cant possibly enter oracles. This is being discussed here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5836.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5836.0)
Apparently both she and the 103rd Gaden Tripa belong to the same line of thought which I find it disturbing because he lived in Gaden where he witnessed thousands of monks and high lamas going to see the oracles every month for advice. How can he then say something like he doesnt believe in Gyenze? Just really... strange.
So if he and this lady dont believe that Gyenze is real AND they dont like Shugden, are they saying that the high lamas of their era like Lati Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche were wrong to consult Dorje Shugden? And only he, the 103rd Gaden Tripa, was right in all of Shartse Monastery to not believe in Shugden? He was correct over and above Lati Rinpoche and all that? Where does he come off saying things like that? But I guess because Dharamsala likes Nechung, itd be okay to consult Nechung huh? Or in his view, itd be okay for unenlightened deities to run around Sera Monastery like the oracles doing in the video below? Sounds political to me... sorry, just saying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi1pULEARXE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi1pULEARXE)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PcoVLsbIpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PcoVLsbIpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iuyfo9KDR0U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iuyfo9KDR0U)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qxWKr0SADk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qxWKr0SADk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ1VvvrAILo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ1VvvrAILo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rui7zVGV_eQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rui7zVGV_eQ)
According to oral tradition, it is believed that for a lama to occupy the Gaden throne of Lama Tsongkhapa, it takes a tremendous amount of merits and great learning is only a part of it. Since the tenure of Kyabje Ling Rinpoche, who occupied the Gaden throne as 97th Gaden Tripa, all Gaden throne holders have successfully completed their spiritual duties. They have done well during their tenure.
Among the senior lamas, it is well known that to occupy such a powerful and illustrious throne in a role representing Tsongkhapa, you must be highly attained, highly accomplished and must be well-practiced in tantra. Otherwise you will not successfully complete your term, and will take ill, resign or pass away. This is what is said in the monasteries. Any lama who is well practiced in tantra will have the abilities to have some nominal control over their bodies in regards to health and the timing they will pass away. Great Lamas like Ling, Trijang, Zong, Zemey and many more could extend their lives and also lived long lives. This is a hallmark of a powerful tantric practitioner.
Surely a Gaden Tripa, the head of the Gelug school of Buddhism and representative of Tsongkhapa will have these nominal tantric abilities to heal themselves and extend their lives. For example, the Dalai Lama is always saying to the press how long he will live and until when. This is a sort of hint to his powers acquired in tantra to control his body knowing when he will pass. The 103rd Gaden Tripa passing away suddenly after only four months on the throne is an embarrassment to the Gelug school and it shows he has not much accomplishments by way of tantra to control his body.
Even towards the end of his life, the severe deterioration of his body and the secrecy behind his disease added more negative questioning. People are suspecting in hushed tones now that he died of AIDS because in India, dirty needles are commonly used in village clinics to administer medicine. Lobsang Tenzin had been financially strapped for many years during his refugee stay in India (50 years or more), and could have easily gone for a simple injection at a local clinic and contracted AIDS. The other suspected cause of death might be he had cancer. Both AIDS and cancer would have given this wasting away appearance prior to death. Whatever it is, why the shrouded mystery to announce his illness?
Perhaps it is embarrassing and reflects his ordinariness, although rank-wise he was very high? Rank and attainments do not always go equally hand in hand as this Gaden Tripa showed. Since the position of Gaden Tripa is through meritocracy, not everyone who reaches it may have great tantric attainments and are therefore unable to sit for very long on the throne. This doesn't apply to other throne holders or offices of reincarnated positions. In those cases, it is the same person's mind returning again and again to occupy the throne, and hence they bring with them the same attainments from life to life. Being the same mindstream taking reincarnation to occupy the thrones, they draw on the same source of merits to support their occupancy of the throne.
• 97th Gaden Tripa Kyabje Ling Rinpoche 1903-1983
(Double tenure of 1965-1983)
• 98th Gaden Tripa Jetsun Jampal Zhenpen 1919–1989
(Tenure 1984–1989)
• 99th Gaden Tripa Yeshe Dhonden passed away in 1995
(Tenure 1989-1995)
• 100th Gaden Tripa Lobsang Nyima Rinpoche 1928-2008
(Tenure 1995–2003)
• 101th Gaden Tripa Lungrik Namgyal b.1927
(Tenure 2003–2009)
• 102th Gaden Tripa Rizong Rinpoche b.1928
(Tenure 2009-2016)
• 103rd Gaden Tripa Lobsang Tenzin 1937-2017
(Tenure FOUR MONTHS)
Hence, we can see that previous Gaden Tripas had the merits to serve as Gaden throne holder for their allocated tenure. On the other hand, it was quite obvious that Tripa Lobsang Tenzin did not have the necessary merits to occupy the Gaden throne as he passed away just four months after his enthronement. In the monastery, he had a reputation of being a political lama and that did not serve him well. He was also highly critical of Dorje Shugden's practice, a view which didn't serve him as he collected a lot of negative karma for speaking against Dorje Shugden. Although given the opportunity to collect tremendous amounts of merits in his position as Gaden Tripa, his karma caught up instead. Due to his speaking against Shugden, he broke many other people's samaya with their gurus. One of his own gurus was Trijang Rinpoche and by criticising Dorje Shugden, he broke his samaya with his own teacher. The karma is heavy even if you are Gaden Tripa. Buddha gave no exceptions of karma and its results to anyone.
The final point of note: there are no reports of the Gaden Tripa even being in tukdam (death meditation) which I find to be unusual, to say the least. Wont a high lama like him be able to control his winds to sit in meditation even for a little while? I know its not a prerequisite that all lamas enter tukdam but youve got masters like Ling Rinpoche sitting in meditation for 21 DAYS, Trijang Rinpoche sitting in meditation for 19 DAYS and Zong Rinpoche sitting in meditation for 3 DAYS. For Gods sake you even have non-ranking lamas, ordinary geshes like, who enter death meditation for days.
So this affair? Its all very rushed and hush hush when they conducted this Gaden Tripas funeral so quickly. No tukdam, nothing. And the fact the entire affair was so secretive, that theres no information about why he died or HOW he died, and the fact he was cremated SO quickly just throws up a lot of questions. It feels like theres something to hide.
And not only was the cremation rushed but it was just very underwhelming in general. Look at photos online of Lati Rinpoches funeral then you tell me. By comparison, this Gaden Tripas funeral had very few international guests, and so few high lamas in attendance and presiding over the ceremony. We are talking about the head of the lineage here. Shouldnt he be getting more respect? Lets face it, its not as though his passing was a surprise. Its not as though people didnt know the cremation was going to take place eventually since he had already been so sick. In fact, he didnt look very good during his enthronement, like he was sick before he took office then started to degenerate really quickly as soon as he sat on the throne.
Where are the government dignitaries? Where are the high lamas? This is the head of the lineage; flipping eck, where was the Dalai Lama who appointed him to this position? Where is the pomp and ceremony of the funeral like Lati Rinpoche was afforded? It all adds up that the funeral was only done because they had to due to his status, and not because people actually wanted to be there or that they revered him.
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Is that the ambulance they brought him in? A little unceremonious compared to someone else like maybe Penor Rinpoche? And why the secrecy surrounding his death? What did he die of, don't people deserve to know?
Anyway RIP Rimpoche. Hope you have a swift rebirth.
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Im referring to the one whos just passed away. Was anyone aware that Tsem Tulku is connected with him? A Tibetan contact just forwarded these images to me. Tsem Tulku with the Gaden Tripa before he was on the throne, and some recent photos of monks in Nepal doing prayers for him? Nowt idea what any of the writing below the portrait means but their from the same monastery in Tibet and clearly reconnected again in this life.
The first two pictures are definitely take at Tsem Ladrang in Gaden Monastery.
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Im referring to the one whos just passed away. Was anyone aware that Tsem Tulku is connected with him? A Tibetan contact just forwarded these images to me. Tsem Tulku with the Gaden Tripa before he was on the throne, and some recent photos of monks in Nepal doing prayers for him? Nowt idea what any of the writing below the portrait means but their from the same monastery in Tibet and clearly reconnected again in this life.
The picture you were sent can be found on H.E. Tsem Rinpoche's website:
http://resources.tsemtulku.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/3/files/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/tr75.jpg (http://resources.tsemtulku.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/3/files/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/tr75.jpg)
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The 103rd Ganden Tripa began his studies when he was 9 years old at Tsem Monastery.
Tsem Monastery or Tsemcholing is located around Lhasa
(http://www.tibetmap.com/t02n20.jpg)
The stupa in Tsemcholing looks exactly like the one in H.E. Tsem Rinpoche's Kechara Forest Retreat:
(http://retreat.kechara.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IMG_3844.jpg)
http://retreat.kechara.com/news/vajrayogini-stupa-at-kechara-forest-retreat/ (http://retreat.kechara.com/news/vajrayogini-stupa-at-kechara-forest-retreat/)
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H.E. Tsem Rinpoche's Kechara Forest Retreat also has a large tree which I believe they call the "iconic" tree which looks very much the same as the tree in the picture of Tsemcholing.
Have a look and tell me if they look the same?
(http://www.tibetmap.com/t02n20.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/fc/f3/8d/fcf38d35a02e03f13a477f3377dbc989.jpg)
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This is mysterious that the death of the 103rd Gaden Tripa is not publicly announced. When did he pass away?
What did he die of?
Yeap the pictures were definitely with Tsem Tulku.
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The 103rd Gaden Tripa had just been enthroned for several months before he fell ill and passed away. Therefore could not completed his tenure. Since he just had the opportunity to hold the position for several months, it was too early to tell as to what kind of legacy this Gaden Tripa would have created, if he had the chance to hold the position longer.
It is interesting that this Gaden Tripa was receiving help from a Shugden Lama although he himself did not believe in Shugden. At least he should have practice tolerance and be courteous to his sponsor by tolerating his belief.
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i noticed that dalai lama didnt even say a word about this 103rd gaden tripa's passing, why not? after all dalai lama is the one who appointed him as the 103rd gaden trip last year, and gaden tripa passed away in office as the highest throne-holder of the gelug sect, which is also dalai lama's sect, so why isnt dalai lama saying anything? an eulogy, a statement, a condolence...nothing...why???
well from the story shared by dharmadefender, it seems the 103rd gaden tripa is not a grateful person, he didn't seem to embody dharma but more like a political person. the gaden tripa seat is very sacred, it is like lama tsongkhapa on earth, previous gaden tripas are highly attained beings like panchen sonam drakpa, ling rinpoche...if one does not have enough merits, he cannot hold up to the name of gaden tripa, his lack of merits does not sustain it, looks like this is what happened to the 103rd gaden tripa.
then the next question is, why did the dalai lama appoint him as the 103rd gaden tripa? the dalai lama has no clairvoyance to see that his merits (the lack of it) did not qualify? why still appoint him? perhaps he would not have died so early if the dalai lama did not appoint him as gaden tripa? why did the dalai lama do that???
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This is really sad! As the 103rd Gaden Tripa, who does not believe in Dorje Shugden and Gyenze, receiving and accepting such huge gifts from a Dorje Shugden practitioner is quite interesting.
When one occupies this prestigious position as Lama Tsongkhapa's throneholder, one must be a true practitioner. Lama Tsongkhapa is not fooled by politics and without the true motivation to benefit others, one cannot hold up to this position I guess.
Thanks for the pictures who prove the connection of the 103 Gaden Tripa and Tsem Tulku.
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From reading this post, I feel that the Gaden Tripa Lobsang Tenzin was a highly political lama and that probably gotten him the position in the first place and that is why he didn't accumulate the merits to support his tenure. It's too bad that he was like that because that didn't serve his practice and as DharmaDefender had said, he didn't have the merits nor the tantric attainment to ward off unnecessary illnesses. At this point, nobody knows how he passed away which in itself is highly suspicious.
I am sorry but this is too bad because the Gaden Tripa should be a lama of the highest caliber and not just any ordinary monk. He is the head of the Gelug School and a lama of his caliber, much more is expected out of him because he was chosen amongst the most elite of the Gelug. Unfortunately, this lama reflects badly on the Gelug system and it shows that degeneration had set in and it seems that a lama who is political and against Dorje Shugden should never be allowed to rise to this level.
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The 103rd Ganden Tripa began his studies when he was 9 years old at Tsem Monastery.
Tsem Monastery or Tsemcholing is located around Lhasa
([url]http://www.tibetmap.com/t02n20.jpg[/url])
The stupa in Tsemcholing looks exactly like the one in H.E. Tsem Rinpoche's Kechara Forest Retreat:
([url]http://retreat.kechara.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IMG_3844.jpg[/url])
[url]http://retreat.kechara.com/news/vajrayogini-stupa-at-kechara-forest-retreat/[/url] ([url]http://retreat.kechara.com/news/vajrayogini-stupa-at-kechara-forest-retreat/[/url])
Tsem Monastery is not in Lhasa area, it is in Yarra. Tsemcholing is actually another monastery that belong to a very powerful incarnation line that used to serve as one of the regents of Tibet. So, I think you got your info mixed up. Furthermore, the shape of the stupa you pointed out is quite common in Tibet. You would see it almost everywhere in the Tibetan world.
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There are so much information to be digested in this post:
- 103rd Gaden Tripa's early death
- Tsem monastery
- Relationship between 103rd Gaden Tripa and HE Tsem Tulku
- Merits required for such a high post as Gaden Tripa
- Qualities of the 103rd Gaden Tripa
Looking at the list of the previous Gaden Tripa, I noticed that they are all Dorje Shugden practitioners or never made negative comments about Dorje Shugden and break samaya. A monk who breaks own samaya definitely cannot be a representative of the Buddha's teachings, let alone being the Gaden Tripa. Earlier, I browsed through the two albums on the 103rd Gaden Tripa's Facebook Fanpage, I can see that he didn't looked good since his tenure as the Sharpa Choeje. I suspect he was already sick then and when his ascended to the Gaden throne, his karma took over and became extremely sick very quickly and eventually passed away.
A friend who had learned under him for few years told me things changed when he was chosen as a Sharpa Choeje, and obviously very into the power and title. My friend also told me someone told him off directly for his change of behaviour as a Sharpa Choeje and warned him that will not serve him well. Obviously, since that is against the Buddha's teachings to begin with. My friend also told me that he was a good teacher in knowledge but I guess his interest in power overpowered the dharma and spiritual practice.
What my friend said further prove DharmaDefender's sharing on 103rd Gaden Tripa's personality and being ungrateful is just one of the many things he shouldn't be doing with such a sacred title. Any normal and ordinary people would understand being grateful and thankful is just something any normal persons would do as a common courtesy to so much help one received. HE Tsem Tulku on the contrary is a total opposite of the 103rd Gaden Tripa - genuine, generous, caring, appreciative, non-political, doesn't want attention, practitioner of dharma and devoted to his root Guru and Dorje Shugden.
Sera and Drepung have a reputation to produce sangha that are good in political relation, while Gaden, especially Shartse, famous for producing eminent dharma practitioner. This 103rd Gaden Tripa further 'endorsed' that reputation and so it is not a surprise that he didn't focus on dharma but politics. Political relation is not bad but focusing on it as a monk is definitely unnecessary and the result should set a good example for the future generation. I hope people will learn a good lesson from the 103rd Gaden Tripa's death and life story and really take karma and merits into serious considerations and work towards liberation from samsara.
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This is very sad, his tenure as the Gaden Tripa was a very short one. I heard that it's very inauspicious for someone like the Gaden Tripa to pass away during their tenure, especially one who has only been on the throne for 4 months. I wonder how will this make the others feel... To sit on such a huge throne, it requires a tremendous amount of merits to sustain that; If one does not have enough merits and they further criticize others' practice/ religion such as Dorje Shugden, he/ she collects demerits.
Dorje Shugden is an enlightened Buddha who's an emanation of Manjushri, can you imagine the amount of demerits one collects for criticizing Manjushri himself? People can argue all they want, they can say that Dorje Shugden is a spirit and therefore he took his revenge on the Gaden Tripa. But shouldn't a monk with vows intact be protected from spirit disturbances? A monk/ nun who does their practices correctly and genuinely and keep their vows, even the robes that they wear can ward off spirits. So IF Dorje Shugden is a spirit (which he's not), why was he able to 'harm' the Gaden Tripa? Don't you think there's something wrong there?
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DharmaDefender's post does indeed raise some interesting points about the late 103rd Gaden Tripa, but more than that, also about the state of affairs surrounding the appointment of the highest position within the Gelugpa hierarchy. Someone who can so blatantly tell someone else that what they are practicing is wrong, yet take funds to build his house, and then completely ignore the person who helped him, does not sound like the qualities a leader of such stature should have. For example, even the Dalai Lama doesn't condemn other religions, well...apart from the Holy Protector. Maybe that's a bad example.
In any case, in the modern world of religious pluralism, harmony, faith, and acceptance is what is need for the world to become the utopia it can be if we give it a try. An example such as this, would not inspire others to be the best they can in a world full of so much difference. Hindus and Muslims can live side by side, so why can't those who practice the Holy Protector and those who do not.
In the India the various traditions, sects and sub-sects all have their own version of Gaden Tripa, and their own thrones. Just like the various other Tibetan Buddhist traditions also have their own heads and thrones of their tradition. Some who sit on the throne are worthy of the position, others are not. And the differences between the qualities of these leaders, are clear for all to see. However, one thing is for certain. In the case where those that sit on the throne do not uphold their particular traditions and the teachings and practices, that particular tradition doesn't seem to flourish. No one is impressed by them, no one is inspired. On the other hand, those who are leaders with qualities worthy of such positions, make the tradition flourish. There have been some comments previously as to the specific qualifications it is said that a Gaden Tripa must have, and these are somewhat new to me, but do match my own experience of those who lead other traditions.
My teacher has always maintained that real masters are able to control their prana and chakras, so that they can heal themselves of any disease, and overcome any physical ailments. This is a sign of the siddhis that have gained from intense practice. In this regards i mean no disrespect, but if the 103rd Gaden Tripa was a real master, why did he not simply engage in prana meditation and heal himself of his disease? Wouldn't this have been even more of an inspiration for those in the tradition, and increase people's faith in the teachings?
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Tsem Monastery is not in Lhasa area, it is in Yarra. Tsemcholing is actually another monastery that belong to a very powerful incarnation line that used to serve as one of the regents of Tibet. So, I think you got your info mixed up. Furthermore, the shape of the stupa you pointed out is quite common in Tibet. You would see it almost everywhere in the Tibetan world.
Thank you Big Uncle for pointing that out. Yes it doesn't make sense either for the monastery to be in Lhasa for it took the late 103rd Gaden Tripa 3 months to trek from Tsem Monastery to Lhasa. Thank you.
The Tsem monastery referred to must be the Yagra Tsem monastery.
Yagra Tsem monastery's alumni include, from what I have found on the www:-
the late 103rd Gaden Tripa;
H.E. Tsem Rinpoche's previous incarnation Gedun Nyedrak;
Khensur Jampa Yeshe Rinpoche who is pictured together with Tsem Rinpoche and the late 103rd Gaden Tripa in Tsem Ladrang in DharmaDefender's post above;
Possibly Geshe Tsultrim Gyeltsen who is also from Kham and likely the 103rd's warden in Tsem monastery.
Hence there are many karmic links via Tsem monastery amongst these high lamas.
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Dharma Defender raised important points about the 103rd Gaden Tripa Lobsang Tenzin. It is interesting that this person who did not believe in Dorje Shugden Gyenze, had requested and received help and sponsorship from a Dorje Shugden lama, Tsem Rinpoche, for many years. But after the ban on Dorje Shugden practice was enforced, the 103rd Gaden Tripa Lobsang Tenzin did not even promote tolerance among the Gelug practitioners that include Dorje Shugden followers. The 103rd Gaden Tripa Lobsang Tenzin had the right to not believe in Dorje Shugden, but at least as a spiritual leader, he should have discouraged discrimination towards Dorje Shugden practitioners.
The fact that the 103rd Gaden Tripa Lobsang Tenzin passed away after only several months since he was enthroned as Gaden Tripa, is a testament of his attainment and merits. He did not have control over his lifespan and his death. He did not have what it takes (i.e., merits and attainments) to be the representative of Lama Tsongkhapa on earth. I hope the next Gaden Tripa would be someone that not only has the intellectual understanding of Dharma, but also spiritually attained and can complete his tenure successfully.
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I have been following the main line of reasoning in this post and wonder if it is not all part of illusory play too (I mean there is the karmic side which has to be fulfilled and there is also the illusory play side which will show its results)
1. If is was HH Dalai Lama who picked out the 103rd Gaden Tripa, and before that the same as Abbott of Gyuto Tantric College, and it turned out this way, so HH Dalai Lama is not attained enough to pick the right candidate?
2. If HH Dalai Lama is not attained and has committed such troublesome demerits, why has he lived so long and healthy and is predicting many more years to come?
BTW, I saw that there were auspicious rainbows at the 103rd's cremation.
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This is mysterious that the death of the 103rd Gaden Tripa is not publicly announced. When did he pass away?
What did he die of?
Yeap the pictures were definitely with Tsem Tulku.
It's funny that the cause of death is nowhere to be found. Something suspicious? :-\
From The Tibet Post:
Dharamshala — Spiritual head of Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism, 103rd Gaden Tripa Jetsun Lobsang Tenzin Rinpoche, has died at Max hospital in New Delhi after a prolonged illness. This is a traditional appointment that takes place every seven years.
The influential Tibetan teacher and respected Kyabje Jetsun Lobsang Tenzin Rinpoche, who was born in Eastern Tibet in 1937, passed away at 11:45 pm on 21 April at Max hospital in New Delhi after a prolonged illness.
http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/news/exile/5493-103rd-gaden-tripa-of-tibet-jetsun-lobsang-tenzin-rinpoche-dies-
From CTA's website:
Rinpoche passed away at 11.45 pm on 21 April at Max Hospital in New Delhi after a prolonged illness.
http://tibet.net/2017/04/kashag-condoles-demise-of-the-103rd-gaden-tripa/
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i noticed that dalai lama didnt even say a word about this 103rd gaden tripa's passing, why not? after all dalai lama is the one who appointed him as the 103rd gaden trip last year, and gaden tripa passed away in office as the highest throne-holder of the gelug sect, which is also dalai lama's sect, so why isnt dalai lama saying anything? an eulogy, a statement, a condolence...nothing...why???
Maybe because His Holiness knows this Gaden Tripa sorry to say is a sham and for him to have passed away just 4 months into his tenure as the throne holder of Lama Tsongkhapa sends s very strong and big message to all the Tibetan monks who knows this very well, that he lack the merits and is definitely NOT qualified or he had a bad motivation? Basically, it is not positive and actually quite shameful, given the fact that he was actually picked by HH the Dalai Lama.Look at the previous Gaden Tripas like the 101st Gaden Tripa who is just glowing and looking fresh even at 90!!!
well from the story shared by dharmadefender, it seems the 103rd gaden tripa is not a grateful person, he didn't seem to embody dharma but more like a political person. the gaden tripa seat is very sacred, it is like lama tsongkhapa on earth, previous gaden tripas are highly attained beings like panchen sonam drakpa, ling rinpoche...if one does not have enough merits, he cannot hold up to the name of gaden tripa, his lack of merits does not sustain it, looks like this is what happened to the 103rd gaden tripa.
YES this is very very obvious and clear and in fact it is a huge sign of degeneration for the Gelugs, it's like a bad omen.
then the next question is, why did the dalai lama appoint him as the 103rd gaden tripa? the dalai lama has no clairvoyance to see that his merits (the lack of it) did not qualify? why still appoint him? perhaps he would not have died so early if the dalai lama did not appoint him as gaden tripa? why did the dalai lama do that???
This is a very very GOOD QUESTION ---- Why did the Dalai Lama pick a Gaden Tripa that is obviously not qualified... just because he is on the Dalai Lama's side against Dorje Shugden??? I wonder where this current Gaden Tripa will end up and will he return? Can he? How can accept all the money and sponsorship from Tsem Tulku yet pretend he does not know him and cut all ties when the ban on Dorje Shugden came up. This clearly indicates his true motive for being friendly, visiting and being nice to Tsem Rinpoche in the beginning.
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Here are some recent pictures of 103 Gaden Tripa's funeral. I wonder who is the next Gaden Tripa the Dalai Lama will pick. I hope is not another one with ulterior motives because real Buddha Lama Tsongkhapa would never be so ungrateful, power hungry and discriminate another person's spiritual beliefs.
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I have been following the main line of reasoning in this post and wonder if it is not all part of illusory play too (I mean there is the karmic side which has to be fulfilled and there is also the illusory play side which will show its results)
1. If is was HH Dalai Lama who picked out the 103rd Gaden Tripa, and before that the same as Abbott of Gyuto Tantric College, and it turned out this way, so HH Dalai Lama is not attained enough to pick the right candidate?
2. If HH Dalai Lama is not attained and has committed such troublesome demerits, why has he lived so long and healthy and is predicting many more years to come?
BTW, I saw that there were auspicious rainbows at the 103rd's cremation.
Interesting point of view, Ringo Starr. Whether or not it is illusory play, the point to be illustrated here that broken samaya is very dangerous, and it is very obvious.
A few years back, there were talks that Lama Zopa Rinpoche manifested stroke to absorb the broken samaya of FPMT as a whole of forsaking their founding Lamas' (Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa) protector practice. Lama Yeshe is a well known Dorje Shugden practitioner while Lama Zopa received the Dorje Shugden life entrustment initiation (sogtae) from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, the tutor of His Holiness the Dalai Lama himself. Lama Zopa's devotion to Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is still seen in 2012 when Lama Zopa, Phari Rinpoche and Khadro la were doing puja in front of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's stupa in Dharamsala, India.
Watch the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtxGTKVNN9o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtxGTKVNN9o)
I believe that such a lama would not go [/url]against his spiritual commitment and hence would not go against Dorje Shugden, despite having to advice against Dorje Shugden practice (many Lamas had to do this). It was also said that a monk from Kopan Monastery went to Phelgye Ling to ask for Dorje Shugden puja to be done when Lama Zopa suffered from stroke.
You can follow the discussion here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1158.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1158.0)
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i noticed that dalai lama didnt even say a word about this 103rd gaden tripa's passing, why not? after all dalai lama is the one who appointed him as the 103rd gaden trip last year, and gaden tripa passed away in office as the highest throne-holder of the gelug sect, which is also dalai lama's sect, so why isnt dalai lama saying anything? an eulogy, a statement, a condolence...nothing...why???
Maybe because His Holiness knows this Gaden Tripa sorry to say is a sham and for him to have passed away just 4 months into his tenure as the throne holder of Lama Tsongkhapa sends s very strong and big message to all the Tibetan monks who knows this very well, that he lack the merits and is definitely NOT qualified or he had a bad motivation? Basically, it is not positive and actually quite shameful, given the fact that he was actually picked by HH the Dalai Lama.Look at the previous Gaden Tripas like the 101st Gaden Tripa who is just glowing and looking fresh even at 90!!!
Just to reiterate what I said... guess what I stumbled upon floating around on twitter... this sure explains exactly what I thought above!
(http://i67.tinypic.com/10dcv37.jpg)
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And the 103rd Gaden Tripa is never going to tell you this but he even got sponsorship for his Labrang (household) from Tsem Tulku even though he knew Tsem Tulku is a Shugdenpa. At the time the Gaden Tripa was poor, he asked Tsem Tulku for help to raise construction funds for his Labrang. My contact told me that Tsem Tulku raised over 400,000 INR for the Gaden Tripa to build his house. Yeah thats right - the current house of the most recent Gaden Tripa was fully sponsored by Tsem Tulku. Didnt know that did you? 8) Tsem Tulku even found financial sponsorship for several of the Gaden Tripas personal students for many years, because the Gaden Tripa asked and because of their connection (familial, monastic). Tsem Tulku also found personal sponsors for the Gaden Tripa and sponsored his personal needs for many years.
Anyway, despite taking all of this help, the 103rd Gaden Tripa isnt beyond making some unbecoming remarks. The Gaden Tripa used to make regular visits Tsem Tulku at his home and on one of those trips, Tsem Tulku showed his altar to the Gaden Tripa. And despite knowing that Tsem Tulku is a devoted Shugden practitioner, the Gaden Tripa said he didnt believe in Gyenze.
But what are you going to do? Everyones free to say whatever they want. It didnt become an issue and their relationship continued until the ban on Dorje Shugden was enforced. It was only then, despite the help he had received, did the Gaden Tripa lessen his connection with Tsem Tulku. Oh yeah, and he didnt return any of the money or property offered to him by such a 'polluted' Shugden lama.
I will never understand this about them. Why hate the person practising Dorje Shugden but take their money? Tsem Tulku gave so much financial help to the Gaden Tripa. And when all of this help was taken, Dorje Shugden wasnt an issue... :-\
This is amazing. If Dorje Shugden practitioners are so bad, why not return the money, or give up the premise? 8)
I am not surprised. This is the same ingratitude shown by Sera monks. When the monks of Sera first arrived in Bylakuppe from Buxar, they only had a mere 10,000 rupees (approximately USD 165) to their name. Sera Mey accumulated significant debts while building the monastery to contractors, suppliers as well as the then Tibetan Government in Exile (TGiE) now known as the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA), who sent their representatives to collect levies from the monastery.
The financial plight of Sera Mey went on for some time until Kensur Lobsang Tharchin Rinpoche, one of the benefactors who paid off all the monastery’s debts from funds raised through his center in America. With the advice of his root teacher, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kensur Rinpoche also initiated a number of projects to support the Sera Mey monks, thus supporting them to rebuild Sera Mey Monastery in South India to what it is today. However, when this great Abbot Emeritus visited Sera Mey’s kitchens even before the separation, he was denied food and drink – the Sera Mey monks refused to serve him just because of his practice of Dorje Shugden.
They still have Khensur Rinpoche's name as the founder on the Sera Mey Food Fund.
(http://4.1m.yt/fynON83.png)
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Here are some recent pictures of 103 Gaden Tripa's funeral. I wonder who is the next Gaden Tripa the Dalai Lama will pick. I hope is not another one with ulterior motives because real Buddha Lama Tsongkhapa would never be so ungrateful, power hungry and discriminate another person's spiritual beliefs.
I would not get my hopes up too high. Only those who toe the Dalai Lama's line and are prepared to abandon all principles to be in his good books will get anywhere these days. Look at the recent appointments in the Gelug spiritual and secular hierarchies and you will see that pre-requisite.
I too was wondering why the Dalai Lama picked such a short-lived Ganden Tripa but it now makes sense that the seat is no longer to be occupied by the most qualified but most willing. I think the Dalai Lama cannot take any chances after the 101st Ganden Trisur left Shartse and made his allegiance to Dorje Shugden clear. That was a blow to the Dalai Lama.
Putting unqualified people positions where they have to be responsible for upholding a sacred lineage is a death sentence to them as well as the lineage but I guess we see from this event that the survival of the pure Gelugpa lineage is not that important after all to the Tibetan leadership.
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It is indeed very sad to see that a Ganden Tripa who passed away in his tenure. It is event more sad to hear that such a high lama, who criticised and discriminated Tsem Tulku, who had helped him so much when he needed financial support, just because Tsem Tulku is a devoted Dorje Shugden practitioner. Whether it is his bad karma he collected to passed away in such a short period in his tenure or not, it is not up to us to say. But, as a human, as a dharma practitioner, as a Buddhist, it is really bad to treat someone who had helped us before like that. Don't even need talk about not returning the money, the discrimination and criticism are already enough to break the relationship and Tsem Tulku's heart. The ban is really bringing so much trouble and bad things to the people. So, is the organisation that started the ban going to get bad karma soon? Maybe we should wait and see.
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Sad to say, It is really bad to see Gelug has degenerated in this this state. Gelug when started by Lama Tsongkhapa is all about discipline, but right now, "political" seems to be the name of the game. Anyone who is politically correct by agreeing with HH Dalai Lama and condemn will get all the funding and fame. Otherwise, you will get defamed and worse, death threats.
Is this what it is called the degeneration age?
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Sorry to say but you can see in this video that the 103rd Gaden Tripa did not look very healthy already at the beginning of his position:
https://www.facebook.com/voatibetan/videos/vb.131905013511959/1155232094512574/?type=2&theater (https://www.facebook.com/voatibetan/videos/vb.131905013511959/1155232094512574/?type=2&theater)
Lets hope that the Dorje Shugden ban comes down fast. Dorje Shugden can not be criticised, he is a Buddha.
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Tsem Tulku has always been such a generous and compassionate Lama who's presence on social media helped so many people internationally with his teachings. I have found his teachings to be so helpful in changing my perspective on expectations and to gain more peace of mind, lessening the mental sufferings arising from ego. Anyone who had receive such generosity of help would have been grateful, so I am incredulous as to how the 103rd Gaden Tripa, as a high Lama could be otherwise. Discarding someone when he no longer suit your purpose is really really low. And just because Tsem Tulku practices Protector Dorje Shugden? That shouldn't interfere with friendship as the world does not live in segregation of religious groups and most countries practices freedom of religions. I live in a neighbourhood comprising of Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. and that doesn't interfere with our interaction with each other. Why would a "high practitioner" of holy Buddha's teachings not strive for equality or equanimity with acceptance of others? It is sad that he brought such negative karma on himself for disparaging others, especially enlightened Buddha/protector Dorje Shugden and Lamas with enlightened minds who came back lifetime after lifetimes to teach us the Dharma. In this effect, he had reject compassion of the enlightened ones and as such will not reap any by the law of karma.
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After viewing the whole post carefully, I am inclined to agree with Ringo Starr's remark "I wonder if it is not all part of the illusory play also". I too agree with Pemachen who quotes the example of Lama Zopa suffering a stroke to show "the dire consequence " of breaking samaya with his Guru Lama Yeshe for giving up his Shugden as the case of a compassionate holy being's way of teaching beings of this degenerate age what happens when you break samaya and give up the practice of Shugden.
Yes, I also think that the whole sad story of the 103rd Gaden Tripa is a teaching by a compassionate holy being about the dire karmic consequences of giving up all shreds of spirituality and becoming thoroughly political, debased and corrupted and devoid of basic qualities like gratitude and , above all, breaking one's samaya with one's guru by giving up the Shugden practice(all 'diseases' of this degenerate age). Furthermore,the dire consequences were manifested so immediately and swiftly.
Yes, the whole sad story of the 103rd Gaden Tripa does point to the fact that the Gelug tradition has degenerated. Yet, this has not stopped compassionate beings from returning and manifesting in various ways to guide and teach beings who are in dire need of Dharma and spirituality.
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"I have been following the main line of reasoning in this post and wonder if it is not all part of illusory play too (I mean there is the karmic side which has to be fulfilled and there is also the illusory play side which will show its results)" Quote from Ringo Starr
I am intrigued by this comment, not to contradict this noble comment by Ringo Starr but are we Shugdenpas to continue via our either noble or ignorant ways in accepting all the discrimination inclusive of the ban against our religious freedom and rights by viewing all the wrongs as illusionary play or a bigger picture beyond our comprehension?
Is the non ability of the 103rd Gaden Tripa to finish his term through passing away another illustration of the bigger picture or that breaking samaya with our Gurus is a gross misconduct?
My apologies if I am offensive which is not my intention.
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I am intrigued by this comment, not to contradict this noble comment by Ringo Starr but are we Shugdenpas to continue via our either noble or ignorant ways in accepting all the discrimination inclusive of the ban against our religious freedom and rights by viewing all the wrongs as illusionary play or a bigger picture beyond our comprehension?
Is the non ability of the 103rd Gaden Tripa to finish his term through passing away another illustration of the bigger picture or that breaking samaya with our Gurus is a gross misconduct?
Well said Dondrup Shugden; I wish I could express myself with such clarity.
By the way, exactly this same reasoning of yours applies to the gross misconduct displayed by the evil dalie, and still some people insist on “seeing” the big deceiving propaganda picture of the criminal as “Chenrezig”...
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In a first delusionary step, the deceptive image of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig” is cleverly disseminated by propaganda. This is similar to the obscurations to knowledge (jñeyavarana, she drib).
In a second delusionary step, naive, ignorant people mistake this deceptive image, created by propaganda, for what is imagined; they mistake the deceptive image of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig” for an actual evil dalie as “Chenrezig”. This is similar to afflicted obscurations (kles
shavarana, nyön-drib)
In the third step, such mistaken people develop elaborate explanations aimed at intellectually justifying their delusional view of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig”, such as the “bigger picture”, “the illusionary play beyond our comprehension”, and the like. This is similar the artificial ignorance (parikalpita-avidya, kun brtags kyi ma rig pa)
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In a first delusionary step, the deceptive image of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig” is cleverly disseminated by propaganda. This is similar to the obscurations to knowledge (jñeyavarana, she drib).
In a second delusionary step, naive, ignorant people mistake this deceptive image, created by propaganda, for what is imagined; they mistake the deceptive image of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig” for an actual evil dalie as “Chenrezig”. This is similar to afflicted obscurations (kles
shavarana, nyön-drib)
In the third step, such mistaken people develop elaborate explanations aimed at intellectually justifying their delusional view of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig”, such as the “bigger picture”, “the illusionary play beyond our comprehension”, and the like. This is similar the artificial ignorance (parikalpita-avidya, kun brtags kyi ma rig pa)
Thank you Matibhadra for this line of explanation. Let me take it further if you don't mind.
How would you explain (without going into the future lives stuff because ordinary people like me just don't buy it) why, according to the line of theory in this thread, the 103rd Ganden Tripa broke samaya and died like an ordinary person with black karma ripening all the way whereas HH the "evil" Dalai Lama is still lucid and in the pink health?
I would think that how we view the two different protagonists comes from our side, whether we are the CTA, Lobsang Sangay, or John Doe. Logically I cannot but come to the conclusion that both HH Dalai Lama and the 103rd are in an illusory play.
I do however agree with the comments that we should not just accept illusory play and not do anything, not create the causes or conditions for this illusory play to take its course in a direction that would be positive for the spread of the stainless teachings of Je Tsongkhapa and the all-compassionate-wisdom of enlightened protector Dorje Shugden.
And what is the current incarnation of Zong Rinpoche doing? Is he breaking samaya too and will also face the same fate as the 103rd? I wonder.
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(My previous message was unintentionally posted while still incomplete; here follows the full version):
In a first delusionary step, the deceptive image of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig” is cleverly disseminated by propaganda. This is similar to the obscurations to knowledge (jñeyavarana, shes bya'i sgrib pa).
In a second delusionary step, naive, ignorant people mistake this deceptive image, created by propaganda, for what is imagined; they mistake the deceptive image of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig” for an actual evil dalie as “Chenrezig”. This is similar to afflicted obscurations (kleshavarana, nyon mong pa'i sgrib pa).
In the third step, such mistaken people develop elaborate explanations aimed at intellectually justifying their delusional view of the evil dalie as “Chenrezig”, such as the “bigger picture”, “the illusionary play beyond our comprehension”, and the like. This is similar to artificial ignorance (parikalpita avidya, kun brtags kyi ma rig pa).
In other words, the process which binds us to samsara, and the process which binds people to an unscrupulous tyrant such as the evil dalie posing as “Chenrezig”, are not dissimilar. Now, as Buddhists, we all want liberation from samsara, but how distant is such achievement if we are unable to get rid even of such gross delusion as the impostor evil impostor dalie posing as “Chenrezig”!
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How would you explain (without going into the future lives stuff because ordinary people like me just don't buy it)
If you want to refute past and future lives you should show your reasons, instead of just blindly rejecting them, like as a stubborn donkey refusing to move forward.
Merely claiming that ordinary people “just don't buy it” is a faulty reason, because many ordinary people do accept past and future lives.
Besides, within Buddhism past and future lives are explained on the basis of reasons, and therefore its understanding is perfectly accessible to ordinary people.
Moreover, your statement thoroughly contradicts your own previous statement in the current thread, where you explicitly said:
I have been following the main line of reasoning in this post and wonder if it is not all part of illusory play too (I mean there is the karmic side which has to be fulfilled and there is also the illusory play side which will show its results)
Indeed, how could you propose a “karmic side” while rejecting past and future lives, apart from which there is no karma, as explained by the Buddha?
Unless you are proposing some kind of irrational, Judaized “karma”, which dispenses with past and future lives; but then you should clearly state it in a preliminary way.
You should also explain why should ordinary people buy into your irrational, Judaized “karma” without previous and future lives while rejecting a perfectly rational karma with past and future lives.
Besides, since you so gullibly buy into a pseudo-esoteric “illusory play side which will show its results”, please explain exactly why should an ordinary person buy into such a ridiculous nonsense.
why, according to the line of theory in this thread, the 103rd Ganden Tripa broke samaya and died like an ordinary person with black karma ripening all the way whereas HH the "evil" Dalai Lama is still lucid and in the pink health?
Necessarily because of karma, which according to your own above statement you do accept.
And, since karma does entail past and future lives, then you must accept past and future lives as well, which effortlessly completes your requested explanation.
I would think that how we view the two different protagonists comes from our side, whether we are the CTA, Lobsang Sangay, or John Doe. Logically I cannot but come to the conclusion that both HH Dalai Lama and the 103rd are in an illusory play.
While I cannot say anything about the 103rd Ganden Tripa, it is clear that the evil dalie lame, as his very name suggests, is indeed the perpetrator of lame lies, or the player of delusional propaganda games aimed at manipulating people; who would deny it?
And what is the current incarnation of Zong Rinpoche doing? Is he breaking samaya too and will also face the same fate as the 103rd? I wonder.
How could I possibly know? I'm just a ordinary person. And since you claim to be an ordinary person as well, why do you spend your time buying into such useless speculations, instead of reflecting on reasonable and useful topics, such as karma and past and future lives?
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Dear Matibhadra,
Thank you for your extensive comment on my comment.
So here are two scenarios:
1) HH Dalai Lama is Chenrezig Bodhisattva who has returned to earth to help all sentient beings along the path to discover their Buddha nature. In his past life, he tried to destroy Dorje Shugden by ordering fire pujas but failed and "developed faith" and later (inc. other lives) wrote apologies, praises, pujas to Dorje Shugden.
Then many lives later he changed his mind and again calls Dorje Shugden the devil and this is still left hanging in the air. I'm sure you've seen the many karmic repercussions of this action and this continues to roll out. However, unlike during the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, this has not been resolved because it is ongoing. The karma has not burned out because the CTA especially, is still going around hoodwinking the public in the name of the Dalai.
There are many ways it could move on karmically of course but what would Chenrezig choose in order to benefit the minds of sentient beings? This is what I am asking.
Would Chenrezig manifest remaining in the pink of health, lucid, like there is no karmic repercussions for avatar Dalai's actions? Would avatar Dalai go in a blaze of glory with tukdam, rainbows, relics and a prediction of his reincarnation?
2) HH Dalai Lama is not an avatar of Chenrezig but just a very successful politician who will suffer his karma, if not this life, then future lives. He is a darn good politician who has managed to build a global following who think they are practicing dharma but are really not. Hell awaits.
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So here are two scenarios:
1) HH Dalai Lama is Chenrezig Bodhisattva who has returned to earth to help all sentient beings along the path to discover their Buddha nature. In his past life, he tried to destroy Dorje Shugden by ordering fire pujas but failed and "developed faith" and later (inc. other lives) wrote apologies, praises, pujas to Dorje Shugden.
Then many lives later he changed his mind and again calls Dorje Shugden the devil and this is still left hanging in the air. I'm sure you've seen the many karmic repercussions of this action and this continues to roll out. However, unlike during the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, this has not been resolved because it is ongoing. The karma has not burned out because the CTA especially, is still going around hoodwinking the public in the name of the Dalai.
There are many ways it could move on karmically of course but what would Chenrezig choose in order to benefit the minds of sentient beings? This is what I am asking.
Would Chenrezig manifest remaining in the pink of health, lucid, like there is no karmic repercussions for avatar Dalai's actions? Would avatar Dalai go in a blaze of glory with tukdam, rainbows, relics and a prediction of his reincarnation?
2) HH Dalai Lama is not an avatar of Chenrezig but just a very successful politician who will suffer his karma, if not this life, then future lives. He is a darn good politician who has managed to build a global following who think they are practicing dharma but are really not. Hell awaits.
Hi Ringo Star... based on your comments... I have some questions...
So if we pick scenario No.1 and believe that the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig then surely he would have some kind of clairvoyant and would know that this 103rd Gaden Tripa he picked is not going to last on this throne. So why would he picked such a short lived Gaden Tripa and embarrassed himself? Why would he be so uncompassionate and put his life at risk for not having enough merits to sit on the holy Je Tsongkhapa's throne?
And if we go with scenario no.2 then we should just stop the discussion here and just keep spreading and promoting Dorje Shugden through so many of our great lineage lamas like HH Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche the current one, H.H. Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and many more lamas. One really active and championing in spreading Dorje Shugden is no doubt Ven Tsem T Rinpoche. But what is strange is that none of these lamas has ever said one word that this Dalai Lama is false except the NKT folks. Now, why so?
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So here are two scenarios:
1) HH Dalai Lama is Chenrezig Bodhisattva who has returned to earth to help all sentient beings along the path to discover their Buddha nature.
If so, what you call “Chenrezig Bodhisattva” is a gangster, and Buddhists don't need it.
In his past life, he tried to destroy Dorje Shugden by ordering fire pujas but failed and "developed faith" and later (inc. other lives) wrote apologies, praises, pujas to Dorje Shugden.
Which is a proof that your “Chenrezig Bodhisattva” is anything except for the bodhisatva Chenrezig.
Then many lives later he changed his mind and again calls Dorje Shugden the devil and this is still left hanging in the air.
Which is further proof that your gangster is just a transvestite of “Chenrezig Bodhsattva”.
I'm sure you've seen the many karmic repercussions of this action and this continues to roll out. However, unlike during the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, this has not been resolved because it is ongoing. The karma has not burned out because the CTA especially, is still going around hoodwinking the public in the name of the Dalai.
What would you expect from a gangster transvestite as “Chenrezig Bodhisattva” together with his minions?
There are many ways it could move on karmically of course but what would Chenrezig choose in order to benefit the minds of sentient beings? This is what I am asking.
The problem here is that is that you believe that the bodhisattva Chenrezig must a a gangster. For instance, Jews believe that their “God” must be a bloodythirsty mass murderer, as described in their own scriptures. Maybe you are in the wrong religion.
Would Chenrezig manifest remaining in the pink of health,
Henry Kissinger (still alive at 94 yers old), Augusto Pinochet (dead at 91 years old), Ariel Sharon (half dead at 78 years old, fully dead at dead at 86 years old), and many other mass murderers went around and beyond their eighties in the pink of health, which means that according to your logic they were all “Chenrezig”, right?
lucid,
Do you call the sick monster who promotes gruesome self-immolations, bloody racist riots, perverse witch-hunts, and who specifically promised that he will be worse than the Cultural Revolution... “lucid”? Then who else is “lucid” in you opinion? Jack the Stripper? Dr. Jekyll?
like there is no karmic repercussions
The lack of karmic repercussions for a criminal (or for anyone to that effect) is a Jewish, not a Buddhist tenet. You might have posted in the wrong forum.
For instance, Jewish “prophets” such as Moses and Joshua, according to the Jewish scriptures themselves, perpetrate every kind of inconceivably abominable bloody actions, including against (non-Jewish) women and children, but fear no karmic consequences.
for avatar Dalai's actions?
Since you want to ascribe some kind of high religious status to a criminal, why don't you try Judaism rather than Buddhism? Then the evil dalie, instead of an “avatar”, could be a “prophet”, for instance.
Would avatar Dalai go in a blaze of glory with tukdam, rainbows, relics and a prediction of his reincarnation?
Doesn't matter, as long as dead or alive he goes were he belongs, the garbage bin of history.
2) HH Dalai Lama is not an avatar of Chenrezig but just a very successful politician
What a joke. Do you call this failed spectrum who is obliged shamefully to leave the White House by the back door in the midst of piles of garbage like a hungry ghost a “very successful politician”?
who will suffer his karma, if not this life, then future lives.
Well, Buddhists do believe in karma.
But, since the evil dalie obviously does not (which by the way he explicitly declared in his propagandistic talks with Western materialist dogmatists popularly called “scientists”), this is further reason showing his uncontrollable penchant for Abrahamist, Jewish materialistim (and Jewish money as well, considering the generous support he receives from the Jewish financial terrorist George Soros), rather than any instinct for Buddhism.
Forget not that the evil dalie was born a Abrahamist Muslim, and considering how much he reviles his Buddhist tutors, never became a Buddhist in the first place.
He is a darn good politician
Who failed to achieve any of his goals, except for receiving, as a good puppet, money from the CIA and other sponsors of terrorism such as George Soros (the one who also finances Shugden-haters such as Ringu “tulku”, the mentor of notorious Shugden-hater “Tenzin Peljor”, vis his Tsadra Foundation).
who has managed to build a global following who think they are practicing dharma but are really not.
Many cult leaders like Shoko Asahara (himself an evil dalie's close friend), Jim Jones, Reverend Moon, and so forth, managed to build a global following. They are all “Chenrezig Bodhisattva” according to you.
And they all think or thought they are practicing some kind of “virtue”. This is the very nature of cults.
Hell awaits.
Leaving hell aside, as far as humanity is concerned, the garbage bin of history is good enough.
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So if we pick scenario No.1 and believe that the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig then surely he would have some kind of clairvoyant and would know that this 103rd Gaden Tripa he picked is not going to last on this throne. So why would he picked such a short lived Gaden Tripa and embarrassed himself? Why would he be so uncompassionate and put his life at risk for not having enough merits to sit on the holy Je Tsongkhapa's throne?
Simple, to teach the laws of karma and in this scenario, the 103rd would also be an avatar acting out this teaching.
And if we go with scenario no.2 then we should just stop the discussion here and just keep spreading and promoting Dorje Shugden through so many of our great lineage lamas like HH Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche the current one, H.H. Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and many more lamas. One really active and championing in spreading Dorje Shugden is no doubt Ven Tsem T Rinpoche. But what is strange is that none of these lamas has ever said one word that this Dalai Lama is false except the NKT folks. Now, why so?
Because I think that would break the Bodhisattva vows
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Dear Mathibadra,
Wow, more comments on comments on comments.
You know what, you are right. You are right because everything can be negated for there is a lack of inherent existence. Evil Dalie is a projection, false Dalai is a projection, Chenrezig avatars are projections too. So I too if I bother, can negate every one of your labels.
The only engine that can is interdependence, cause and effect. So if we want anything to materialize, we better created the causes. So I shall sign off from this topic and go do something more productive.
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You know what, you are right. You are right because everything can be negated for there is a lack of inherent existence.
Wrong. Lack of inherent existence, as the name suggests, merely negates an imagined inherent existence, nothing else.
Your nihilistic view that lack of inherent existence negates “everything” is an extreme repudiated by the Buddha, by Je Tsongkhapa, and of course by reason.
Evil Dalie is a projection, false Dalai is a projection, Chenrezig avatars are projections too.
Being a “projection”, or merely designated by a consciousness, is the same as existing. Since the evil dalie and the false dalie do exist, such an entity is necessarily designated by a valid, reliable consciousness, and therefore a “projection” too.
By the way, your insistence on the usage of the non-Buddhist, Hinduist term “avatar” in relation to Chenrezig and the evil dalie is interesting, as according to some scholars the myth of the Dalai Lamas being emanations of Chenrezig (Avalokiteshvara) is indeed just a theocratic political concoction based on the Hindu conception of an avatar of Vishnu being an ideal king.
So I too if I bother, can negate every one of your labels.
You bothered to, and were miserably defeated.
Now you have no choice except for signing off from this topic and pretending that you are going to do something more productive.
So I shall sign off from this topic and go do something more productive.
I told you. Now please don't forget to flush, after producing what you call “productive”.
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But what is strange is that none of these lamas has ever said one word that this Dalai Lama is false except the NKT folks. Now, why so?
Except for NKT, all such lamas are somehow integrated into traditional Tibetan society, where criticizing the a high theocrat such as the evil dalie is traditionally punished with death, being skinned alive, having eyes plucked out, bones broken member maimed. Now, even in exile, there are the abominable, medieval kill-lists for everyone to see even in official websites.
These lamas you refer to are no idiots, which is obviously a difficult topic for you to understand.
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(same as previous message, typos corrected)
But what is strange is that none of these lamas has ever said one word that this Dalai Lama is false except the NKT folks. Now, why so?
Except for NKT, all such lamas are somehow integrated into traditional Tibetan society, where criticizing a high theocrat such as the evil dalie is traditionally punished with death, being skinned alive, having eyes plucked out, bones broken, members maimed, and so forth. Now, even in exile, there are the abominable, medieval kill-lists for everyone to see even in official websites.
These lamas you refer to are no idiots, which is obviously a difficult topic for you to understand.
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Dear Matibhadra,
Your paraphrasing and extrapolating is tiresome.
You also seem to like to hear yourself speak and propound theories without strong and deep basis.
Yes, Je Tsongkhapa negated both extremes of nihilism and the view of a solid, graspable self. What is left is interdependent arising. If you had read my comment in whole you would have understood that.
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Your paraphrasing and extrapolating is tiresome.
But since you are insatiable you want more, is it?
You also seem to like to hear yourself speak
Hardly as much as you do! You returned so quickly after having solemnly promised to sign off from this thread! Was life so empty without my speech?
and propound theories without strong and deep basis.
Complaints Monday to Friday 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM. Submissions without evidence will be discarded and submitters will pay a fine.
Meanwhile, I've have detailedly shown that all of your idiotic theories lacked even weak or shallow basis, but you were not able to defend any of them.
Yes, Je Tsongkhapa negated both extremes of nihilism and the view of a solid, graspable self. What is left is interdependent arising. If you had read my comment in whole you would have understood that.
Which part of the comment? The one which says that the evil gangster dalie is “Chenrezig Bodhisattva”?
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I like to share with what I found posted in Tsem Rinpoche's blog. There were some pictures of Tsem Monastery located in Yara, Tibet taken by his students who had visited the monastery. This confirms what Big Uncle had mentioned earlier that Tsem Monastery is in Yara and not Lhasa.