dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: LosangKhyentse on January 27, 2010, 07:55:14 PM
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Advice from Dorje Shugden that His Holiness should leave and that He guarantees H.H. safety
Excerpt from the autobiography of Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang regarding the advice from Dorje Shugden that His Holiness should leave and that He gurantees H.H. safety
When I was fifty-nine, in the year of the earth boar, on the first day of the year I performed elaborate fulfillment offerings before the speaking Päldän Lhamo statue in the shrine room of the Dalai Lama’s residence at the Potala Palace, recited the yearly torma ritual at the top of the palace, and I also went for other festival ceremonies as they had been traditionally performed in previous times, early and late on New Year’s day. There had been a slight snowfall on that morning of the first. It had drifted unevenly and it seemed to be an inauspicious omen in regard to spiritual and temporal affairs.
To mark the Dalai Lama’s completion of study of the five great treatises, at the Great Prayer Festival of Lhasa celebrating Lord Buddha’s miraculous deeds he was to engage in public debate before the vast assembly of Sangha. He therefore went to the upstairs Labrang of the Jokang Temple in Lhasa. During the prayer festival I also stayed in the upstairs residence of the Labrang.
The thirteenth was the actual day of the Dalai Lama’s public debate for Geshe Lharampa. That day at the morning public tea assembly, the courtyard teaching public debate, the noontime public tea, the ‘dry’ (without tea) noontime public debate, the evening tea, and the great evening public debate, at each of these sessions, when the Dalai Lama paid homage to each of the great treatises, at the midmorning assembly, and the great evening debate, there were near to thirty thousand monks present; it was like the ground was strewn with necklace garlands of topaz, or that the earth was everywhere covered with fresh saffron. Amidst the huge assembly of extremely learned, wise dialecticians, geshes of the three monastic seats who thought of themselves as the master logicians Dignaga and Dharmakirti, in the morning, he debated Pramana in the courtyard; at noon, Madyamaka and Paramita; and in the evening, Vinaya and Abhidharma. In each case, he was presented with arguments on the most difficult points and gave answers without any problem, thus filling the wise elders in attendance with awe. We enjoyed the good fortune of the amazing spectacle of seeing these puffed up scholars who looked down upon him as a young upstart having their confident pride trampled under the soles of his feet!
At the midday public debate session the Great King Oracle Emanation of Nächung was invoked into his medium. He offered a brief logical assertion regarding the Four Noble Truths to the Dalai Lama, and also offered his congratulations.
On the day of the fourteenth, in the great courtyard the government sponsored for the Dalai Lama an extremely vast feast celebration of his successful completion of the public debate examinations and, in connection with accepting very impressive offerings, Yongzin Kyabje Ling Rinpoche Sharpa Chöje , I, and the debate partners, the Tsänzhab’s, received congratulatory awards of very high stature.
On the tenth day of the first month, as traditional, in the ancient Meru temple of Lhasa, the Great Dharma King Nächung was invoked and on the day of the seventeenth, as well, an extra invocation was held above the Labrang in the upper residence. Nächung, the state oracle, said, ‘Can you erect a bridge over a ford-less river? I am checking on the spirit side!’
We thought that since it was a time that the gap between Tibetans and Chinese was widening, that Nächung was saying that they would both be making preparations and that Nächung himself was preparing for some sort of action. But when I did my own checking a little later on, the circumference of Lhasa was already completed surrounded by encampments of Chinese forces and it seemed as if all possibility for escape had evaporated. Even so, I was able to receive certain knowledge that the Dharma protectors guaranteed, with immutable vajra words of commitment, that the Dalai Lama and his entourage of close to one hundred would not be subject to the slightest difficulty.
Two days after the Prayer Festival was over, as was traditional, the Dalai Lama came into the midst of the midday public tea assembly. Similar to the present day custom of taking oral examination at some schools, after various shlokas ‘verses’, from the five great treatises that I had prepared were recited as the basis for questioning, the Dalai Lama gave well-reasoned commentaries on the meaning of each verse. After the noonday assembly was over, in the presence of many scholars in the courtyard, he also presented himself for a smaller public debate examination.
One day after that, there was the announcement of a play to be performed at the Siling Puu Chinese army encampment. We received a message from the army office demanding that Yongzin Ling Rinpoche, myself, and other Kashag government ministers attend. Before this there had been meetings in Dotö and Domä to which various lamas, ministers and important people had been invited, after which they had been seized and imprisoned. Because of having heard of this and because of the self grasping ignorance remaining in my mind despite all of my studies of profound view and mind-training, I strongly imagined that the Chinese might deceive us all and arrest us that night, yet I had to go. It seemed to be some sort of preparation from the Chinese side to later offer a deceptive invitation to the Dalai Lama. That night we had a meal with them. While everything remained outwardly polite, we barely managed to get back.
It is said that the Arya Sangha are worthy of service and veneration, a glorious field of merit, the highest field for offerings. Intent on gathering the merit that accrues from making such offerings, for some years, at the assembly of the great prayer festival I had made yearly offerings of public tea service, porridge, distributions of individual offerings, and had contributed to the various capital funds. Likewise at this last of gatherings for such accumulation, I again made a distribution of offerings to all the individuals present at the assembly.
Shortly afterwards, I specially called to my room the Panglung Kuten medium of the principal protector of the teachings, Gyälchen Dorje Shugdän. I invoked the Dharmapala and asked for his advice. In answer, he said that since the enemies of the teachings, the Chinese Communists, intended to soon carry out evil plans, that not only was it of the utmost importance that the Dalai Lama and ourselves secretly leave for India, but that I, especially, could not remain in Tibet because I was so high-profile. He also said that it was very important to warn the Dalai Lama, that he would have to go and that there would definitely come a moment when he would be able to go. But because the issue of whether the Dalai Lama should go or remain had not been officially decided, many still had doubts.
After the prayer festival was over and the Maitreya teachings had been carried in, suddenly the Dalai Lama left Lhasa for the Norbulingka Kälzang Palace with an oceanic entourage. We also went along. On the tenth day of the third month of the year 1959 by the western calendar, on the Tibetan date of the first of the second month of the year of the earth boar, the Dalai Lama, the two tutors , and government ministers along with others, were presented with invitations from the Chinese army encampment demanding our presence at a play in the Communist party army tent. The Dalai Lama’s bodyguard Dapön Taglha Puntsog Tashi was especially invited to the Chinese camp but the Dalai Lama’s entourage of bodyguards was not to exceed ten, by terms of the invitation, and they were also not to wear armor or carry any weapons! As for the tutors and ministers, we were to come alone, and were not allowed to bring any attendants. It was so silly that it outwardly publicized their treacherous intentions. Still the red Chinese forcefully insisted that the Dalai Lama was powerless to refuse, and it was decided that he would go.
Now Tibetans, lay and ordained alike, had a general heartfelt abhorrence for the conduct of the red Chinese. In particular, in all of the eight years since they had arrived in Lhasa up to that time they had never invited the Dalai Lama to the red Chinese army camp. For them to do so now suddenly and not permit him to bring any armed bodyguards, and to invite other government officials without attendants alarmed the Tibetans and they came from every direction. Many people heard or saw the influx of a vast Chinese army in many large trucks that night and witnessed other things. This lead everyone, headed by those of the three monastic universities such as lamas, monks, officials, lay and ordained alike, along with the general public, men and women, in the tens of thousands to congregate around the Norbulingka. No one could convince them to disperse as they were all voluntarily of a single mind to prevent the Dalai Lama from going to the play. That morning of the first, they gathered outside the gates of the Norbulingka Palace, blocking the way and shouting their petition for the Dalai Lama to delay accepting the invitation that day, as they could not bear the responsibility of allowing him to go to the show. The Kalön minister Sampowa Tsewang Rigzin, intending to escort the Dalai Lama, came from Lhasa to the Norbulingka by car but, because his driver was Chinese, the public stoned him. Sampo was struck on the head and had to turn back. Chamdo Pagpa Lha’s relative, Känchung Sönam Gyältsän, a young man who was well known for always associating with Chinese agents, made the mistake of coming to the Norbulingka that day dressed in Chinese clothing and further infuriating people with his conduct until he was stopped by the suspicious crowd at the main gate and they stoned him to death. All this led to the Dalai Lama deferring his trip to the Chinese encampment. The public thronged through Lhasa shouting, ‘We Tibetans are free and independent!’ Over a thousand people from Tibet’s three regions formed a volunteer bodyguard army, bringing their own shields and weapons, assembling to stand watch on each side of the walls surrounding the Norbulingka Palace, around the Potala Palace and the Lhasa cathedrals. At the ritual house of the Norbulingka the people created a new bodyguard army headquarters. Many thousands of Lhasa women also thronged together, demonstrating against the Chinese communists, shouting for the Chinese to leave Tibet.
On the day of the eighth the red Chinese shot and killed two monks near the north side of the Norbulingka, and two mortar shells were fired at the Norbulingka Palace, as has been related in detail by His Holiness the Dalai Lama in his own writings. The situation had become so dangerous that it greatly disturbed me and the people like me who don’t realize all things are illusory. As a result of this situation the Kashag authorities asked for prognostications regarding the suitable way for the Dalai Lama to reach any foreign country in order to seek asylum. They used the mediums of dough balls in the presence of the talking Päldän Lhamo statue, Nächung Chögyäl Chenpo-–the state oracle-, and the prophecy of the Gadong Dharmapala Shingjachän, but following the intentions and orders of the Dalai Lama, I secretly ordered Ratö Chubar Rinpoche to go to Panglung Retreat and to ask Gyälchen Shugden for his instructions.
The Dharmapala said, ‘You must go immediately! If you go by way of the southwestern direction, no harm will come to the Dalai Lama or any of his entourage; I guarantee it! You must go raising this sword in my name at the head of the Dalai Lama’s column!’ Thus, he advised using the path leading to the southwest through Rama Gang and then performed the shooting arrow and sword dances.
Following this very advice, on the night of the eighth day of the second month at nine o’clock, preceded by members of his family such as his mother, the Gyälyum Chenmo, the Dalai Lama and a small entourage then left. Following after him came Kyabje Yongzin Ling Rinpoche and I, Kalön Zurkangpa, Wangchen Geleg, Neshar Thubtän Tharpa, Shänkab Gyurme Tobgyä, and a reduced entourage including three close attendants. Everyone had cast off the clothing they normally wore and put on ordinary clothing and servant’s clothing. We left the Norbulingka and took a boat across the Lhasa Kyichu River in the southwest at Rama Gang. When we got out of the boat we left quickly together as if we were going about ordinary business. I had my close attendant Lhabu, Jamyang Tashi, Norbu Chöpel, Namdröl, and Sönam Tänzin, on the night of the eighth, go ahead unobtrusively to wait for us at Pari in Rama Gang. Päldän, Lozang Sherab, and Lozang Yeshe came with me that night.
When we left the Norbulingka Palace we hid inside a big oxcart covered over by a tarp. We got out without the official bodyguards at the gate even asking who we were! Leaving from Kyichu Pari, until crossing the small Sandy Pass at the fortified monastery of Neu Tzong, to the north of the Kyichu River, the whole way we could clearly see the lamps of the Chinese army camp close by on the ‘Nortö’ fields to the west of the Norbulingka. The moonlight seemed to be even brighter than usual and we went feeling a mixture of dread that the Chinese knew we were there and would pursue us, and hope that, if we could get across the Kyichu, we could escape. It was like the proverbial huntsman and the black Vajra Mahakala deer. Not confronted with disaster, sitting on a throne, I had always proclaimed with a thunderous voice the mind-training teachings, including how to incorporate negative conditions on the path, but today I felt like a liar without any such realizations.
(end of excerpt)
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click on this video to see proof how Sera Monks recalls Dorje Shugden giving the actual advice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4VAQgt4Bs
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excerpt above taken from:
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1048
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Wow! Amazing - where's the rest? ;D
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The rest is in the works. In Switzerland, they are in the process of translating the whole autobiography of HH kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. We are all anxioiusly awaiting for publication. It is something very necessary today.
It will inspire, bless us and gives us insight into one of the greatest masters of Buddhism of all time.
TK
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How glorious! We will all enjoy many hours of mixing our minds with the mind of Trijang Dorjechang! Any word on when such a treasure might be available?
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No idea when the auto-bio will finish. They are keeping it very hush-hush to avoid obstacles. But I am keeping my eye out on it for sure.
When I find out, I WILL IMMEDIATELY LET EVERYONE KNOW ALSO.
This Trijang autobiography will speak the truth of what really happened and we can believe it 100%!
I can barely breathe thinking about it.
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Intriguing to learn about this sword that Dorje Shugden gave to HH Dalai Lama - anyone shed anymore light on it? Why did DS give it to him and does it have any mystical power?
Thanks,
;D
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it is a +5 vorpal blade, and lowers your armor class to -2
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The most interesting part of the discourse by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche seems to me the following one:
Shortly afterwards, I specially called to my room the Panglung Kuten medium of the principal protector of the teachings, Gyälchen Dorje Shugdän. I invoked the Dharmapala and asked for his advice. In answer, he said that since the enemies of the teachings, the Chinese Communists, intended to soon carry out evil plans, that not only was it of the utmost importance that the Dalai Lama and ourselves secretly leave for India, but that I, especially, could not remain in Tibet because I was so high-profile. He also said that it was very important to warn the Dalai Lama, that he would have to go and that there would definitely come a moment when he would be able to go.
No matter the pretext given, it seems that what the Great King mostly wanted was that the greatest Master alive, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, leaves Tibet. Of course, him being the Yongdzin, for him to leave the Dalai Lama had to leave too no doubt. But reading this it occurs to me that of that big party leaving for India, the one that Gyalchen Dorje Shugden wanted most specially to save for the Dharma coming to the outside world out of Tibet was the son of Je Pabongka´s heart, the highest Lama, Teacher, holy repository and treasury of the holy Dharma, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Trijang Dorjechang.
That is why we will have to understand, sooner or later, that our main responsibility is NOT to wage a war against the Dalai Lama, whom I pity very much, and it is NOT either to wage a war in favor of Tibetan independence, but to study, contemplate and practice, and compose and disseminate the teachings that our most holy Trijang Dorjechang brought to us. Those words that candidly he wrote down, that "I, especially, could not remain in Tibet", carry to me all of these meanings and more.
(Now you all can insult me if you wish :)).
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It will definitely be amazing to read the translations of the great minds Like Trijang Rinpoche, its like very recent history but with so much depth and definitely application in our current lives.
Wow is too little a word to describe it. The tutor of HHDL, just what does a teacher like that have to share with his students, with the world, with me...
Waiting anxiously.
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HH Trijang Rinpoche's biography can affect us in so many positive ways and uplift our spiritual practice. It will also clear more misunderstanding re dorje shugden.
This biography is instrumental to bring dorje shugden's practice to the accepted forefront.
I am indeed just as excited.
tk
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May all beings everywhere
Plagued by sufferings of body and mind,
Obtain an ocean of happiness and joy
By virtue of my merits.
My no living creature suffer,
Commit evil or ever fall ill.
May no one be afraid or belittled,
With a mind weighed down by depression.
May the blind see forms
And the deaf hear sounds.
May those whose bodies are worn with toil,
Be restored on finding repose.
May the naked find clothing
The hungry find food
May the thirsty find water
And delicious drinks.
May the poor find wealth,
Those weak with sorrow find joy;
May the hopeless find hope,
Constant happiness and prosperity.
May there be timely rains
And bountiful harvests;
May all the medicines be effective
And wholesome prayers bear fruit.
May all who are sick and ill
Quickly be freed from their ailments.
Whatever diseases there are in the world,
May they never occur again.
May the frightened cease to be afraid
And those bound be freed;
May the powerless find power
And the people think of benefiting eachother.
For as long as space remains,
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world.
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Hey there Lhakpa Gyaltsen
you wrote in a recent post that hte fifth DL was in the feilds until he was 25. This is also described in Great Treasury of Merit by Venerable Geshe Kelsang, but i have not seen this written elsewhere. In Mullin's 14 DL's, I think it says the Fifth DL was founda s a baby and enthroned as a small child.
Where did you get your info?
Thanks!
May all beings everywhere
Plagued by sufferings of body and mind,
Obtain an ocean of happiness and joy
By virtue of my merits.
My no living creature suffer,
Commit evil or ever fall ill.
May no one be afraid or belittled,
With a mind weighed down by depression.
May the blind see forms
And the deaf hear sounds.
May those whose bodies are worn with toil,
Be restored on finding repose.
May the naked find clothing
The hungry find food
May the thirsty find water
And delicious drinks.
May the poor find wealth,
Those weak with sorrow find joy;
May the hopeless find hope,
Constant happiness and prosperity.
May there be timely rains
And bountiful harvests;
May all the medicines be effective
And wholesome prayers bear fruit.
May all who are sick and ill
Quickly be freed from their ailments.
Whatever diseases there are in the world,
May they never occur again.
May the frightened cease to be afraid
And those bound be freed;
May the powerless find power
And the people think of benefiting eachother.
For as long as space remains,
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world.
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There's something that confuses me a little...in A Great Deception, the WSS talk about how the Dalai Lama was never in any real danger, that he was in regular (and pleansant) contact with the Chinese government and he fabricated the reasons for his fleeing from Tibet through rumours, etc.
So how does that support our Dharma Protector?? Can someone please explain to me, if HHDL was never in any real danger, then what did DS have to protect him from? Thanks!
ps. crazycloud, "it is a +5 vorpal blade, and lowers your armor class to -2" made me laugh so hard
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That is why we will have to understand, sooner or later, that our main responsibility is NOT to wage a war against the Dalai Lama, whom I pity very much..
Thanks for your insights in this post, friend, however, unlike others here I do believe that the Dalai Lama, for whatever reason, is working to destroy the supreme Dharma of the Ganden Oral Tradition as represented by his Teacher Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang; therefore, if we do not publicly counter what he's doing, even in this generation there won't be any Dharma to practice because, having eliminated the Protector, there won't be a way for people to be protected from obstacles to realizing the Dharma and all kinds of inner and outer maras will manifest to prevent the proper study, practice and realization of these teachings.
Therefore, maybe unlike those who criticise the WSS' activities or who think that the Dalai Lama is a pure being helping Dorje Shugden practice to flourish by banning it (go figure!), I see opposing the Dalai Lama as a very necessary outer action, which is spiritual in nature, to protect the Dharma for generations to come.
I suppose it is debatable whether our main job is to take outer action to uphold the Dharma or to engage in inner action of study, contemplation and meditation to gain realization of the teachings. I think we can do both at the same time if we're skilful. I'm reminded of Dromtompa who had little time to meditate, but had higher realizations then Amai Jangchub who meditated all the time, simply because he was serving his Guru Atisha. If our Gurus ask us to protect the Dharma through demonstrations and so forth, I believe we can receive their blessings and inspiration through serving them in that capacity and maybe make quick progress like Dromtompa did.
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There's something that confuses me a little...in A Great Deception, the WSS talk about how the Dalai Lama was never in any real danger, that he was in regular (and pleansant) contact with the Chinese government and he fabricated the reasons for his fleeing from Tibet through rumours, etc.
So how does that support our Dharma Protector?? Can someone please explain to me, if HHDL was never in any real danger, then what did DS have to protect him from? Thanks!
Hi DharmaDefender,
I think the whole point of 'A Great Deception' is that the Dalai Lama is not what he seems - he is deceptive because he's motivated by a desire for power and position, yet he wears the robes of a renunciate. I have to trust people who have a greater insight than me on that one, but while we can't see the Dalai Lama's mind and motives, we can see his actions and the results of those actions.
It's important to point out that, even though now the Dalai Lama's rhetoric towards the Chinese government is combative, at one time he was their ally and even wanted a communist Tibet, which is where the 17 point agreement came from. If we cannot trust him about that, we cannot trust his motives and pronouncements about Dorje Shugden either. I think it's about people seeing that so that his spiritual authority is diminished and that serves the the purpose of supporting our Protector because the weaker the Dalai Lama's authority, the less damage he can do to the Dharma.
What Dorje Shugden had to protect the Dalai Lama from was Chinese aggression once he had decided to leave Tibet. He was clearly no longer 'playing the game'. I'm sure the Chinese would not have wanted him to leave Tibet. The reasons for leaving were clear - two mortar shells landed at the Norbulinka, and so it was judged that it was no longer safe for the Dalai Lama to stay in Tibet. It's not certain that these shells came from the Chinese; they could easily have been fired by the rebels. This is supported by reason because, according to their correspondence, General Tan had very cordial relations with the Dalai Lama, so why would the Chinese want to attack him? On the other hand, the Tibetan rebels were very concerned that the Dalai Lama was friendly with the Chinese and sympathized with Mao and communism, so, fearing the loss of their county, they could have been fired as a 'wake up call' to get him to change his allegiance.
I think it's also quite possible, as 'a friend' has speculated, that the real reason why Dorje Shugden said that the Dalai Lama should leave was so that Trijang Dorjechang would go to the West and Je Tsongkhapa's Dharma would spread throughout the world.
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Thank you Lineageholder for acknowledging my discovery/speculation, based on Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche´s own words, that the one whom the Protector wanted mostly to leave Tibet to benefit the teachings and sentient beings was this holy Trijang Dorjechang himself. (This is not to say that he wasn´t happy to protect all the others, a Buddha is always happy to protect, if they could they would take our obscurations with their own hands and would take us out of samsara once and for all, they don´t do it because it´s not possible).
I absolutely agree that one should take action when action is to be taken, and OF COURSE if your venerable Lama requested you to do demonstrations or other actions then there´s no doubt you have to do it.
Since it seems that what I´ve been saying is a little bit misunderstood, let me give a succinct explanation. It´s just a case of taking the middle way.
1- I oppose the use of insults against the Dalai Lama. This has two motivations: one, I try to keep my vows as much as I can and the Three Jewels know how difficult it is; I try also to remind others in this website to also keep their vows related to right speech. The other motivation is just skilful means in front of the world: I know that for some Oriental people the use of insults works quite well; this is not so in the Western world. In our Western world what works best is to point very clearly to wrong actions without what is called ‘ad hominem’ attacks, the attacks on the person. In the case of the D.L. this is true to a much greater degree due to his good reputation and the fact that people do not like to be treated as idiots. If you insult such a cherished icon, they feel insulted themselves because they have admiration and sympathy towards him. In the West what works is to say “he did this, look how it breaks such and such of our laws about human rights, etc.” rather than the use of insults that gives us a bad aspect and makes still more convincing his smiling face.
2- I consider a wrong view quite pernicious to go about saying that the Dalai Lama did what he did out of compassion in order to disseminate the cult of the Protector, or in order to benefit in some other unknown mysterious way the teachings and beings or even the Tibetans. This sounds quite virtuous, to maintain this view, but it´s not. It´s a wrong view, a type of superstition, maintained either out of innocent ignorance or out of other motivations, like repeating what others are saying or even out of some compassion for the Dalai Lama´s followers. But Buddhas act like in the Anglo-Saxon law: following precedents. For instance, the Buddhas with the marks they all are born in the Himalayas, they all are enlightened sitting under the Bodhi Tree, etc. There is no precedent of a Buddha that shows himself as such (and the Dalai Lama does, since he accepts the title of Chenrezig that he´s been awarded with) there is no precedent that they turn against their Gurus or that they split the Sangha or that they massively persecute people out of religious discrimination. Lord Atisha didn´t do this, Lord Tsongkapa didn´t do this, and that´s that: enough precedence for me, as to how a Guru/Buddha should conduct himself in the face of the world. How do you imagine that Buddhas that give the appearance of Guru/Buddhas go about showing the opposite of that which is their main, basic job: to show beings what to adopt and what to abandon? This doesn´t stand to reason.
(Here I beg any potential debater to please not come back again with examples that have nothing, nothing to do with this case, like Tilopa eating fish in front of Naropa or Marpa throwing Mila through the window; this does not fall into the public level I am talking about, that has nothing to do with the intimate Guru/disciple relationship. So please skip these and other similar examples. Skip also that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche said this or that. Kyabje Rinpoche was the Guru of the Dalai Lama and loved his disciple tenderly and never abandoned him; while he was alive he tried to maintain the door open for him to make amends, and for the Tibetans in exile not to loose hope, but once he passed away … a door closed in a definite way, so do not try to give me that one either).
3- About to take action against him, if innocent lives are at stake even in a broad sense and it´s possible to do something then one should do something. The Three Jewels know what we did. But to think that the teachings will survive only if we do actions against the Dalai Lama is also a deviation. The teachings will survive if we protect the Lamas and our own practice. If we do not actualize in our practice and realizations the holy teachings of Je Rinpoche then we are destroying the teachings with more strength than the outer actions of the Dalai Lama. Because if we, recipients of the treasury of Dharma imparted to us by our holy Lamas, those giants that came from the Land of Snows, do not practice, then who? Once we die, if this generation of disciples does not give enough number of realized beings, who is going to impart the Dharma to the coming generations? What a terrible betrayal to our Lamas and sentient beings that would be.
That is the meaning of my injonctions: if there is an innocent to protect and you can do it, then do it. Afterwards go immediately back to your practice and forget about that poor Dalai Lama and his actions. Listen, study, contemplate, meditate! This is going to save the holy Dharma, this is going to benefit ourselves and others.
Ok, thank the Three Jewels that this was going to be succinct. Imagine what it would be had I announced that it was going to be extensive.
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Dear friend,
Thank you for your last post, it gives me a lot to think about.
I consider a wrong view quite pernicious to go about saying that the Dalai Lama did what he did out of compassion in order to disseminate the cult of the Protector, or in order to benefit in some other unknown mysterious way the teachings and beings or even the Tibetans. This sounds quite virtuous, to maintain this view, but it´s not. It´s a wrong view, a type of superstition, maintained either out of innocent ignorance or out of other motivations, like repeating what others are saying or even out of some compassion for the Dalai Lama´s followers. But Buddhas act like in the Anglo-Saxon law: following precedents. For instance, the Buddhas with the marks they all are born in the Himalayas, they all are enlightened sitting under the Bodhi Tree, etc. There is no precedent of a Buddha that shows himself as such (and the Dalai Lama does, since he accepts the title of Chenrezig that he´s been awarded with) there is no precedent that they turn against their Gurus or that they split the Sangha or that they massively persecute people out of religious discrimination.
Thank you for saying this. People can hold whatever personal view they wish of the Dalai Lama, but I feel we need to deal with the conventional reality of his actions. It is not Dharma. The fact that Dorje Shugden's fame may be growing is due to the power of this great Protector, rather in spite of what the Dalai Lama's doing, so I really can't accept half-baked theories that he did all this to promote Dorje Shugden's practice. I feel the time of 'crazy wisdom' is gone because in these degenerate times everyone acts crazily and we need to act in accordance with the Dharma, strictly in accordance with the moral precepts that Buddha gave, to show a good example of control over our minds in order to have any credibility at all.
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Dear a friend,
Thank you Lineageholder for acknowledging my discovery/speculation, based on Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche´s own words, that the one whom the Protector wanted mostly to leave Tibet to benefit the teachings and sentient beings was this holy Trijang Dorjechang himself.
Thank YOU posting the original post. Finally, this episode makes some sense!
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did Dorje Shudgen save the Dalai Lama so that he could "destroy" his practice?
isnt he supposed to be omniscient? if so why did he oversaw this?
if he oversaw something dosent it mean he's not enlightened?
and lastly, if we question Dorje Shudgen's judgement, arent we doubting him?
If Dorje Shudgen saves the Dalai Lama, its obvious that even Dorje Shudgen believes that the Dalai Lama is a Buddha also. Else why would he have bothered?
so can we tell Dorje Shudgen what to do now? :p
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If Dorje Shudgen saves the Dalai Lama, its obvious that even Dorje Shudgen believes that the Dalai Lama is a Buddha also. Else why would he have bothered?
'A friend' has already addressed this point on this very thread. It's very possible that the main person that Dorje Shugden was trying to save was Trijang Rinpoche. The way to do this would be tell the Dalai Lama to flee, and of course he would be accompanied by Trijang Dorjechang, so mission accomplished!
Having thought about it, I really don't think the fate of Dalai Lama was the main concern of Dorje Shugden, although of course Buddhas do have compassion for all living beings without exception. Being omniscient, he must have known what the Dalai Lama was going to do in the future - what thanks did Dorje Shugden get from the Dalai Lama, even though he cared for him like his only child? - but the main point was to save Trijang, and indirectly he saved the Dalai Lama too.
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CC_ The Toyo Bunko in Tokyo has an archived paper by Yamaguichi entitled something like "The Complete Ascension of the 5th Dalia Lama to Complete and Absolute Control Over the Tibetans. I forget the complete exact title, but close enough to read it for yourself. Ursula sent me this paper in 1996-97.Certified by Tromo Geshe Rinpoche as a source for her Work. Does this help?
Peace
Hey LG-
did you see my private message? Help me out!
crazy
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That is why we will have to understand, sooner or later, that our main responsibility is NOT to wage a war against the Dalai Lama, whom I pity very much, and it is NOT either to wage a war in favor of Tibetan independence, but to study, contemplate and practice, and compose and disseminate the teachings that our most holy Trijang Dorjechang brought to us. Those words that candidly he wrote down, that "I, especially, could not remain in Tibet", carry to me all of these meanings and more.
I appreciate what you've wrote here. It is the most Dharmic thing to do that I've read. But people are oppressed, monks are excommunicated from their monastery, people are confuse and people are driven out of their homes, and people can't practice Dorje Shugden without being shun upon. I can't wear my Dorje Shugden pendant and T-Shirts openly cos I am afraid someone will report me. This I think is what needs to stop!
However, I don't think it is fair to just say it's all the Dalai Lama's fault but I do think the people he is surrounded by (TGIE) are the culprits that goes out and create havoc knowing that Tibetans are easily swayed and uses the Dalai Lama's name to carry out their violent political ways. We need to stop them and bring them to court too! After when the Dalai Lama passes, sorry, it will be so hard to imagine how they will carry on their activities when the no longer can say orders from the Dalai Lama.
But similar thoughts as dharmadefender came to mind;
1. Why did Dorje Shugden helped and advice for the Dalai Lama to leave Tibet?
2. And why did Dorje Shugden not reveal the Dalai Lama is deceptive, a fake, much earlier to the high Lamas and just get rid of him and save us all this misery???
Hope someone can give a clear logical answer.
Hope the ban gets lifted soon and we can all practice in openly peace! I can't remember, but I read somewhere that the Dalai Lama said he will soon retire and in future there may not be any more Dalai Lamas - hence no more 1 man rules / god - king dictator.
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Dorje Shugden advised HH DL to leave Tibet so that he could lead the Tibetan people away from the impending occupation. HH DL followed Dorje Shugden's advice and He and His party survived the long trek over and across mountains into exile.
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Pertaining to your posting on HH DL --- this article does mention about this present HH DL being the last incarnation .... see last para:
this was extracted from :The Spiritual Leader - The Dalai Lama
The term 'Dalai Lama' translates into spiritual guru, dalai meaning ocean and lama meaning guru. For all the four sects of Tibetan Buddhism, the Dalai Lama is the greatest of all lamas of the Tibetan traditions and is referred to as Gyalwa Rinpoche meaning "Precious Victor," or Yishe Norbu (yid bzhin nor bu) meaning "Wish-fulfilling Jewel".
The Tibetan Buddhist also perceive the Dalai Lama as one of the many incarnations of Avalokitesvara - the most respected Bodhisattva of Tibetan Buddhism who represents te compassion of all Buddha.
Contrary to the perception of many people, the Dalai Lama is not the head of the Gelug School. Instead, this position is officially granted to the Ganden Tripa, the head of Ganden Monastery.
As per records, the title of the Dalai Lama was first conferred upon Sonam Gyatso by the Mongolian ruler, Altan Khan in the year 1578. However, he was not the first Dalai Lama as such. This is because he was third in his lineage and his previous two incarnation were bestowed this title post their deaths. Consequently, Sonam Gyatso became the 3rd Dalai Lama.
The 5th Dalai Lama, along with Gushri Khan, a Mongol ruler unified Tibet. From that time, till mid 20th century, the successive Dalai Lamas held partial political power in Tibet. The residence of the Dalai Lama in Tibet at this point of time was Potala Palace in winter and Norbulingka palace and park in the summer. In 1949, People's Republic of China marched its forces into Tibet and forced the Dalai Lama (14th) to flee to India. Now, the Dalai Lama resides in the Dharamshala in the north Indian state of Himachal Pradesh.
The Succession of Dalai Lama
With the demise of one Dalai Lama, quest begins for his successor or reincarnation. Lamas look for a small child or yangsi (yang srid) who possesses qualities similar to the previous Dalai Lama. Usually, the search spreads over a period of few years, but once the search is finalised, the new Dalai Lama is brought to Lhasa. Here, he undergoes training under other Lamas.
Currently, this method of selection of the Dalai Lama is secular, however, the insistence of People's Republic of China to get the names of the Dalai Lamas approved by it has led to some speculations that the present Dalai Lama will choose to be the last incarnation. The future of the Dalai Lama remains unclear with the Dalai Lama stating both that the conditions in Tibet require him to be reborn as well as he will never be reborn inside territory controlled by the People's Republic of China.
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i'm just wondering, is it possible to not hate the Dalai Lama and make that as the focus of our practice?
so if we disrespect the Dalai Lama wouldnt it reinforce the message that Dorje Shudgen practitioners are just like what is said by those anti Shudgen people?
So we promote Shudgen's practice by proving the point of those who oppose Dorje Shudgen?
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Why dont you just STOP IT !!! Ensapa, you keep insisting that DS practitioners here hate the DL, ...this is just your interpretation of peoples direct words. You can speak directly without being angry or having hate. I do not hate the DL, this I know for a fact. He is not my Guru and I think he is deluded. Still my job as a Buddhist is to feel compassion for all living beings and not to make my main practise " not hating the DL " since I do not hate him anyway !
Your divisive speech wont work here Ensapa. You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect your opinion but with the recent flow of mails I get the feeling that some hidden agenda is behind all this. I hope I am wrong.
Vajra
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I also do not hate His Holiness the Dalai Lama at all. But I will not give up my practice of Dorje Shugden. If practicing Dorje Shugden is tantamount to hating the Dalai lama then that is not my problem nor my intent.
Buddha Shakymani taught proper conduct specific to nuns that does not apply to the monks and hence the monks do not need to apply in their lives.
Similarily, Dalai lama teaches re the Shugden issue which does not apply to me so I do not need to apply in my life.
tk
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Intriguing to learn about this sword that Dorje Shugden gave to HH Dalai Lama - anyone shed anymore light on it? Why did DS give it to him and does it have any mystical power?
The sword has sentimental value ha ha. A reminder of what he's left behind.
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Why dont you just STOP IT !!! Ensapa, you keep insisting that DS practitioners here hate the DL, ...this is just your interpretation of peoples direct words. You can speak directly without being angry or having hate. I do not hate the DL, this I know for a fact. He is not my Guru and I think he is deluded. Still my job as a Buddhist is to feel compassion for all living beings and not to make my main practise " not hating the DL " since I do not hate him anyway !
Your divisive speech wont work here Ensapa. You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect your opinion but with the recent flow of mails I get the feeling that some hidden agenda is behind all this. I hope I am wrong.
Vajra
if you dont hate him then why use disrespectful speech against him? then is there a need to make nasty comments and belittle him if you dont hate him? stop being such a hypocrite.
i am sure many of us here do not agree with his actions but some of us here like tk has taken the smarter approach of not making any comments about DL. I feel that his approach is much better than calling DL all kinds of funny things (that wont work because everyone else who is not a Shugden practitioner knows he's not like that, based on his other actions)
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Wow! Can't wait for HH Trijang Rinpoche's auto-bio to be out. We will get so much insights and much doubts for many will be cleared regarding Dorje Shugden. Reading auto-bio of such beings can so be inspiring.
Anyone could recommend auto-bio of mahasiddhas or high lamas who talks about DS? thanks.
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Quote "Ensapa":
if you dont hate him then why use disrespectful speech against him? then is there a need to make nasty comments and belittle him if you dont hate him? stop being such a hypocrite.
And again the word hypocrite surfaces. Thank you for your kind words. I know what anger and hate feels like, I have done some practice and I know what it feels like to have or not to have anger. So when I tell you I don't have anger towards DL, you can decide to call me a hypocrite, that is your responsability and your freedom.
Think what you want. You see nasty comments, I just give you my opinion. My opinion is without anger, I feel DL is harming Dharma and his actions to destroy the reputation of the Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapas lineage should be stopped. (In a non-violent but verbal wrathful way.) I feel there is a need to tell it like I see it, I take the karmic results on me, being aware that if I have a bad motivation or anger I will go to the lower realms.
Is your disrespectful speech towards me ("hypocrite") a sign that you hate me ?
Vajra
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According to the 13th Dalai Lama’s biography, there was a prophecy by Padmasambava. The previous Dalai Lama (the 12th) Trinley Gyatso is said to have received the prophecy directly from the Lotus Born himself. Padmasambhava told the 12th Dalai Lama that unless he took a wife, he would die young (he did), and predicted the rebirth of the next Dalai Lama. He then spoke these words:
The king will roam foreign lands and a foreign army will come to Tibet;
You the ruler of Tibet will travel to the country of China,
And the ruler of China will send the Chinese army to Tibet.
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My opinion is without anger, I feel DL is harming Dharma and his actions to destroy the reputation of the Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapas lineage should be stopped. (In a non-violent but verbal wrathful way.) I feel there is a need to tell it like I see it, I take the karmic results on me, being aware that if I have a bad motivation or anger I will go to the lower realms.
Vajra
My question:
If Dalai Lama is destroying the reputation of the Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapa lineage, Dorje Shugden the all powerful Dharma protector to protect the lineage, WHY ISN’T HE DOING ANYTHING? It is impossible that he's not powerful enough to remove this obstacles called "the fake Dalai Lama"?
Funny how Dalai Lama cannot ‘destroy’ Dorje Shugden and Dorje Shugden cannot eliminate this “obstacles” to Gelugpa lineage (which Dorje Shugden is protector of this lineage) who is called Dalai Lama. Why is that? If either one party is right, the other party can be eliminated.
Also what happened to ALL the Dharma protectors of ALL lineages? If Dalai Lama is destroying the reputation of Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapa, he is destroying Dharma. Where are all the protectors? They are protector of DHARMA, not protector of Tibet, so why don’t they step in?
And why are the oracles / Dharma protectors whom Dalai Lama have audience with yearly before losar didn’t say anything or slap the fake Dalai Lama? They are protectors of Dharma and they don’t say anything to the high lamas or Dalai Lama and let the Dharma degenerate? What about all the clairvoyant high lamas in the world? Why aren’t they doing anything?
Don’t tell me they are all the Dharma protectors and all the high lamas are corrupted? Then why do we propitiate the protectors and respect the high lamas anyway?
I remember I read before that if such Dharma protectors who failed to do their duties of protecting the Dharma, they are not upholding their vows when they were subdued and hence they will be subdued, just because they are supernatural beings doesn’t mean they are free of karma. So the subduer of such protectors, including Guru Rinpoche himself, where are they and what are they doing?
Hence, I still believe things are not what they are seemed to be. It cannot be that everyone is corrupted.
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]I also do not hate His Holiness the Dalai Lama at all. But I will not give up my practice of Dorje Shugden. If practicing Dorje Shugden is tantamount to hating the Dalai lama then that is not my problem nor my intent.
Buddha Shakymani taught proper conduct specific to nuns that does not apply to the monks and hence the monks do not need to apply in their lives.
Similarily, Dalai lama teaches re the Shugden issue which does not apply to me so I do not need to apply in my life.
tk
So why then do anti-Shugden people feel the Dalai Lama's teachings on the Shugden issue should apply to every single person? I've been having a back-and-forth with someone on Phayul who believes Dorje Shugden is purely a Tibetan concern, and nothing to do with anyone else...it's a common criticism I hear, actually, "oh you're not Tibetan so you have no idea what you're talking about." Perhaps they should be reminded of Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings...dharma is for everyone.
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My question:
If Dalai Lama is destroying the reputation of the Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapa lineage, Dorje Shugden the all powerful Dharma protector to protect the lineage, WHY ISN’T HE DOING ANYTHING? It is impossible that he's not powerful enough to remove this obstacles called "the fake Dalai Lama"?
Funny how Dalai Lama cannot ‘destroy’ Dorje Shugden and Dorje Shugden cannot eliminate this “obstacles” to Gelugpa lineage (which Dorje Shugden is protector of this lineage) who is called Dalai Lama. Why is that? If either one party is right, the other party can be eliminated.
Also what happened to ALL the Dharma protectors of ALL lineages? If Dalai Lama is destroying the reputation of Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapa, he is destroying Dharma. Where are all the protectors? They are protector of DHARMA, not protector of Tibet, so why don’t they step in?
........
Hence, I still believe things are not what they are seemed to be. It cannot be that everyone is corrupted.
What is the Dharma that the Protectors protect? Where does it reside?
It exists of course only in the minds of the practitioners. The Dharma does not exist in any external thing, a book or a monastery, in any organization, in any state or territory. But merely in the minds, or hearts, of the practitioners.
And for the Protectors to function, the practitioner has to connect from his side, he must want the help, ask the help. Otherwise all the Protectors are powerless.
If one remembers all that, then one does not ask questions like "why didn't the Protectors act when communists conquered Tibet" or like "why don't the Protectors stop the Dalai or someonewhatever". Those questions are simply off the mark, out of the bounds, irrelevant, nonsense, category mistakes in the forms of questions.
Dharma Jewels are mental realizations of certain kind in the minds of Aryans, and the Protectors protect only those, just only those. As losing one's country, say Tibet, can function as a Holy Teaching of non-attachement and impermanence, and hence bring one to realizations, the Protectors do not mind. It is not their job. The Protectors protect internal things in the mental continuums of individuals. They are not some spiritualistic form of Universal Peace-keepers or the Police. If someone wants that kind of help, one must ask the worldly gods to intervene. Tibetans have lot's of those.
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Quote:
My question:
If Dalai Lama is destroying the reputation of the Gelugpa and Je Tsongkhapa lineage, Dorje Shugden the all powerful Dharma protector to protect the lineage, WHY ISN’T HE DOING ANYTHING? It is impossible that he's not powerful enough to remove this obstacles called "the fake Dalai Lama"?
The DL is trying to destroy the lineage, it is up to us, to the practitioners of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition to show we are. All appearances are manifestations of our own mind, all bad things are results of our karma, so we need to purify and also we need to act with a pure motivation to save the lineage. ofcourse this begins with a pure intention and a mind free from anger. I agree with ZPawo, without us asking for help and doing something about the situation, nothing will be accomplishged and there is a chance the lineage will be destroyed. Anything is possible, also the total annihilation of the Ganden lineage.
The Tibetans never thought their monasteries would be destroyed, In India they probably never imagined that the great monasteries would be destroyed, so we should not be naive and think we can only be good buddhists if we are very kind to harmful people. Sometimes we need to be direct and wrathful in order to save something truly precious. (again, without violence, just strong words.)
I think DorjeShugden is doing something, he is mobilising us to help him save and protect Je Tsongkhapas lineage. Even if we are not great practitioners or great Lamas, if we have a good and sincere motivation, we dont have to be afraid to speak up and use strong words.
Vajra
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Not just says 'leave', he organized, guided and guaranteed protection for the whole escape.
I've also heard from a close source that the Dalai Lama still has this special sword given directly by Dorje Shugden, there is a room in his residence that he doesn't allow anyone to go into.
We should petition him to give this sword to Shar Gaden Monastery, people that will actually venerate it!!!
Here's a different translation of part of this (for comparative purposes): [url]http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/misc-uprising.html[/url]
i agree!!!
this sword is sacred and a testament to the world how powerful our Dharma protector is
we must have it! we must have it! we must have it!
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:DHow about a sword recovery squad? Thom you on it? :D
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And for the Protectors to function, the practitioner has to connect from his side, he must want the help, ask the help. Otherwise all the Protectors are powerless.
I don't think it's as simple as just wanting or asking for the help, but also having the karma / merit to receive the help? Otherwise, what could the Protector action in order to effect some change? I'm sure Tibetans have prayed to Dorje Shugden countless times to ask to regain their independence, to ask Dorje Shugden to persuade the Dalai Lama to lift the ban.
I think it's not the time or we're lacking in the karma for that at this present moment...perhaps Dorje Shugden's perceived inability to stop the Dalai Lama is due to (a) our lack of merit to practise openly at this present time (b) an indication that perhaps the Dalai Lama is actually doing the right thing.
Dharma Jewels are mental realizations of certain kind in the minds of Aryans, and the Protectors protect only those, just only those. As losing one's country, say Tibet, can function as a Holy Teaching of non-attachement and impermanence, and hence bring one to realizations, the Protectors do not mind. It is not their job. The Protectors protect internal things in the mental continuums of individuals. They are not some spiritualistic form of Universal Peace-keepers or the Police. If someone wants that kind of help, one must ask the worldly gods to intervene. Tibetans have lot's of those.
Well said although I'm not sure asking the worldly gods to intervene is the best idea, I've heard some of them are rather touchy...!
Or we go stealth into his house and bring forth the Sword Of The Protector!
LOL reminds me of the Sword in the Stone, although Dorje Shugden's sword is much cooler than King Arthur's (and helluva lot more effective).
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i'm just wondering, is it possible to not hate the Dalai Lama and make that as the focus of our practice?
so if we disrespect the Dalai Lama wouldnt it reinforce the message that Dorje Shudgen practitioners are just like what is said by those anti Shudgen people?
So we promote Shudgen's practice by proving the point of those who oppose Dorje Shudgen?
I am a Dorje Shugden practitioner and I definitely do not hate the Dalai Lama. I do not agree with everything he says but I still respect him because my Guru respects him. The end.
I do agree that DS practitioners should not fight amongst ourselves - there is enough division in the world. Why don't we respect each other's differences? If you dislike the Dalai Lama, you have your reasons but there's no need to kill me too because i don't :)
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I'm sure Tibetans have prayed to Dorje Shugden countless times to ask to regain their independence
Seriously, what does Tibetan independence have to do with Dharma?
Dorje Shugden is not about regime change. He's not republican/democrat either.
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Vajra [/i]
[/quote]
And why are the oracles / Dharma protectors whom Dalai Lama have audience with yearly before losar didn’t say anything or slap the fake Dalai Lama? They are protectors of Dharma and they don’t say anything to the high lamas or Dalai Lama and let the Dharma degenerate? What about all the clairvoyant high lamas in the world? Why aren’t they doing anything?
Don’t tell me they are all the Dharma protectors and all the high lamas are corrupted? Then why do we propitiate the protectors and respect the high lamas anyway?
I remember I read before that if such Dharma protectors who failed to do their duties of protecting the Dharma, they are not upholding their vows when they were subdued and hence they will be subdued, just because they are supernatural beings doesn’t mean they are free of karma. So the subduer of such protectors, including Guru Rinpoche himself, where are they and what are they doing?
[/quote]
Hahaha! This is so hilariously! Ya why didn't the Dharma protectors just slap the Dalai Lama if he was really detroying the Dharma?? This is a very GOOD QUESTION! Can anyone think of a good answer or sometimes excuse to hold on to the arguement of he the D.L. is fake???
Well I honestly won't say HH the Dalai Lama is a fake... why?
1. Because he is still the only Buddhist monk to date that can command the respect of so many leaders and high masters as. So are all the high masters and leaders of nations (except China of course) blind and fools???
2. Despite all the controversy HH has created, He must be silly to create another one by saying He allows Trijang Rinpoche to continue practicing Dorje Shugden. Why is that possible?
3. Never once I've heard the Oracle in trance of Dorje Shugden say we should slander and defame the Dalai Lama. Instead I've heared him says the opposite and for us to be patient and never lose respect for His Holiness. Now why would Dorje Shugden not just say HH is a fake? That would just clear the air here.
4. Like what TK has mentioned earlier and also what A Friend has said: because we have vows and we need to keep them intact, going around slandering another sangha is definitely breaking our vows. Hence I oppose the use of insults against the Dalai Lama too.
Many may disagree with this, then are you disagreeing in keeping your vows intact? What is so wrong in trying to point out facts without slandering down someone?
Definitely the persecution of Shugden practitioners is wrong and must be stopped! But I find it hard to stop it by going around defaming His Holiness, definitely this will not go well with the opposition team that would only encourage them to tighten their fist towards our Shugden brothers and sisters in Tibet. They are the ones who will receive the effects of our actions not us directly. And so how is the restoring peace and harmony between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners achievable??? By adding more anger to already angry people is not going to create more peace.
So yeah are the rest of the Dharma protectors - Sleeping? Maybe they don't get into politics since they are Dharma protectors hu.
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And for the Protectors to function, the practitioner has to connect from his side, he must want the help, ask the help. Otherwise all the Protectors are powerless.
I don't think it's as simple as just wanting or asking for the help, but also having the karma / merit to receive the help? Otherwise, what could the Protector action in order to effect some change? I'm sure Tibetans have prayed to Dorje Shugden countless times to ask to regain their independence, to ask Dorje Shugden to persuade the Dalai Lama to lift the ban.
I think it's not the time or we're lacking in the karma for that at this present moment...perhaps Dorje Shugden's perceived inability to stop the Dalai Lama is due to (a) our lack of merit to practise openly at this present time (b) an indication that perhaps the Dalai Lama is actually doing the right thing.
Dharma Jewels are mental realizations of certain kind in the minds of Aryans, and the Protectors protect only those, just only those. As losing one's country, say Tibet, can function as a Holy Teaching of non-attachement and impermanence, and hence bring one to realizations, the Protectors do not mind. It is not their job. The Protectors protect internal things in the mental continuums of individuals. They are not some spiritualistic form of Universal Peace-keepers or the Police. If someone wants that kind of help, one must ask the worldly gods to intervene. Tibetans have lot's of those.
Well, uh... Your comments and questions concerning the first quote were answered in the very next quote you gave.
Things are very simple if one does not make category mistakes, like for instance asking a Dhapmapala to effect a worldly change. Dharma Protectors protect Dharma, and this very Dharma can be found only in the mind of the individual, so therefore Dharma Protectors protect only the minds of practice and realization of those practitioners who willfully connect to the Protector in question by using prayers, offerings, praises, etc. There is no more to it. There is no political or worldly dimension in that. If one thinks otherwise, one has made a category mistake. The Second Coming of Jesus might drive the communists out of Tibet, and humble the Dalai Lama into giving religious freedom to Tibetans, but the Acts of Dharmapala merely give internal realizations in the mental continuums of the practitioners of that very Protector. Gods are gods, and Dharmapalas are Dharmapalas. They are not the same.
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In a general, conceptual way I agree with what you are saying ZP.
Which does not mean that people are crazy when they ask the Protector for "wordly" things like food and shelter and good conditions. Even a wishing Bodhicitta will prompt the Protector to help a practitioner that needs things in the material world to go on with his life and his practice. Actually our Protector is well known for that, and it´s possibly one of the reasons why people had some type of semjung I don´t want to lean on right now.
And maybe not even a wishing Bodhicitta, even the slightest hint of faith in Lord Buddha or Je Yab Se Sum will prompt the Protector to award the practitioner with things he thinks he needs, because it´s a good point to establish a basis of faith. Our holy one is well known for those types of things, I would call them "Guru like things". You know, what they say in the instructions for being a Lama ... nothing wrong with that, on the contrary. All depends on the level of the devotee. No doubt his main thing is to help with realizations (not to "give" them but to help with them), but not everybody is ready to receive this particular type of help immediately.
I do agree though that to expect the holy Protector to give Tibet independence is just the projection of a profound attachment to a nation. I don´t think it has any basis on any perceivable conventional reality.
I´m not going to deal again with the projection ... "perhaps the Dalai Lama is actually doing the right thing" ...
I've said enough and I´m taking a break from repeating things like John in the desert ... I´ll come back to it some other time.
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Dear TK, Sorry for answering here your last message addressed to me, I don´t even know where to find it since the rythm of posts has been so intense in the last hours.
Just to tell you that of course I would like to share with you a cup of tea and have a good laugh. I thank you for your sympathy, but when I spoke of shame I didn´t mean that I suffered any personal shame myself, on the contrary, I´ve always felt very happy and saintly "proud" of belonging to this holy lineage; rather that one experiences a type of shame for the person who does something wrong, particularly if one has to speak about it.
I realize that I don´t have a relaxed attitude when I see Dharma being destroyed. And for me there's no way to help in any way anybody who is destroying Dharma, let alone finding justifications that make things worse, confusing innocent people about the most basic of the Buddha´s actions, which is to show beings what to keep and what to abandon.
No matter what, I do understand the reasons others might have for doing what you and the Noobs are doing: to twist Dharma principles to justify the Dalai Lama´s actions. I understand the reasons, particularly in your case and the case of Tibetans, I understand that you want to preserve the icon of your identity as a nation.
We Westerners have an old way of dealing with these type of things: we distinguish between attacking a tenet, an action, an attitude, and attacking a person. We don´t favor attacking the person, it´s called to go "ad hominem", to go against the human being. But we do retain the right to not agreeing and to attacking the actions. Difficult, but I find it quite wise.
Obviously many people do not act according to this pattern, thus the Noobs preaching against our supposed hatred against the Dalai Lama. Or some people actually expressing hatred against him. For the most part, the people in this website do not hate the Dalai Lama but do not agree with his actions. And his actions entailing the persecution of others, well, we have not only the right but the moral obligation to help the persecuted.
So we find it quite strange that a bunch of self proclaimed practitioners of the Protector come here as a group and try to destroy our actions aimed to protect the victims of the Dalai Lama. We might try to understand their intentions and even accept that they might be good intentions. But we disagree with their purpose.
This having been said, it´s clear that there is no debate possible. I don´t see in the new people (I think Noobs is short for newbies) the slightest intention of having a debate. A debate follows the path of reasoning. They are following, according to what Ensapa said, the instructions of a Lama. The path of faith in this case seems to preclude reasoning. So there is no way we can debate.
I have great appreciation for your kindness, TK. Thank you.
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Dear A Friend,
I fold my hands to you and I thank you for your beautiful message which I appreciate and it has touched my heart deeply.
Let me make some things clear to you please:
1. You have every right to be angry with the tenants and policies of the Dalai lama. What happened is very painful and very shocking. It hurts me too. I believe in the prophecy of Trijang Rinpoche that Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are working hand in hand, but that DOES NOT MEAN I DON'T FEEL DISTRESSED, IN PAIN, HAVE ANGUISH, CONFUSED AND FEEL ISOLATED. I know Dorje Shugden is a Bodhisattva and his strength not to retaliate is what shows me who he is. My faith in him grows even more. I feel everything you and everyone else feels because I am just an ordinary person who met the Dharma and trying my best to practice.
2. You have every right to express your views and I do read them and contemplate it very much. I don't think negatively of your views nor feel bad about reading them. I do not judge your views, but take intense interest to learn more.
3. Other ppl on this forum are feeling what you feel is perfectly natural and alright. I pray that this horrible ban can be changed or just disappear. All of you/us do not deserve this.
4. I have no ill feelings towards you and other ppl who express their anger toward Dalai Lama. I understand deeply how you feel. Betrayal.
5.I am not on this forum to in ANY WAY INSULT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. Why? Because we are the same lineage, same practice, same lamas, same protector. I am on your side. I have always been on your side and will remain that way. We have the same purpose.
6. I am not posting things to justify what the Dalai lama is doing. I am offering another view to perhaps help heal the pain, betrayal and disappointment. My posts are not meant to counter you or others who feel like you in any way. I do not wish to further the hurt you, or berate you or put your feelings down. You do not deserve that for all that you have gone through. Dharma is not easy in the world today to practice.
7. Whatever I post is not following the instructions of my lamas, but from my own dedication to my lamas and Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden has helped me so much. I have many stories. It disturbs me deeply when Bodhisattvas like Pabongka, Trijang, Gangchen, Yongyal, Gonsar, Zong, Zemey, Dagom Rinpoches and other great beings are dragged through the dirt. I do not approve of that at all. I will counter that at every stop, but in a way that makes the anti-shugden ppl's minds calm down also in the end or die trying.
8. I will follow all of you in any way except the slander of the Dalai lama. Why? Dorje Shugden in trance through the oracles have advised us not to do so. It is on that reason and that reason alone I will not. I love Dorje Shugden tremendously. I can give my life for him if need be. So I will follow his instructions as long as I breathe. That is my reason and that is ok for me. I do not speak for anyone else because there are many factors involved, I understand.
9. I salute you and the others' strength, tenacity, stability, and perserverance in the Dharma during these difficult times. I fold my hands and bow to you and all of you humbly. Please never stop working, foruming, posting, writing, speaking for the cause of Dorje Shugden. He will prevail by the power of truth, karma and resultant karma in the near future. We will not be like the poor israelites who wandered in the Sinai desert for many more decades after recieving the covenant (ten commandments) from Moses on Mt Sinai.
10. I understand completely that you are distinguishing between attacking a tenant, an action, an attitude and the person. I understand you are attacking the actions. I fully understand and MAY I PLEASE SAY THAT I APPRECIATE THAT VERY VERY VERY MUCH AND THANK YOU AND ALL THE OTHERS. Really thank you.
Please forgive me if I have offended you of which I have no intention to from the beginning. I very much look forward to the forum daily/or as much as possible although I do have a busy schedule, but doing the forum is like doing my sadhanas/commitments daily. I feel something is missing if I don't.
I look forward to meeting all of you on the forum for many years into the future and learn so much from all your posts daily.
I truly feel indebted to all of you to spend so much time for our cause.
A friend, again, I would like to thank you for your beautiful post to me. I understand what you have written and appreciate it. Please keep in mind, whatever I will further write in the future is NEVER TO ATTACK YOU OR ANYONE, PLEASE REMEMBER THAT. It is not to attack your work nor put you or anyone down. I cannot do such a thing. It is beyond me.
I will write in my style for berating of Dorje Shugden to stop with my views and you will write for the same reasons with your views. Both our views are necessary as the audience is vast. Minds are attracted to different styles and approaches. You are not wrong. Your intent is excellent. Your motivation is excellent and your efforts will bear results.
Thank you again, I offer incense, serkym, and a candle to Dorje Shugden for you today. I request Dorje Shugden to bless you further for longer life, further growth and further realizations.
Much sincerity,
Tk
P.S. I will post this at other other threads where we have communicated so you can access it easily.
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This is one of the greatest proofs to prove that Dorje Shugden is not a "spirit", Lord Dorje Shugden is an emanation of Manjushri and therefore He is enlightened, He is very kind to have taken an oath to protect the Buddha Dharma and manifested in a worldly form to be close to us.