dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vajraprotector on January 16, 2010, 02:36:52 PM
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1. If His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is a fake, as discussed in WSS's The Great Deception, why do all the High Lamas and even the protectors (taking trance in oracles) still support His Holiness?
2. Why does His Holiness put his "holy monk" and universal spiritual leader fame & reputation at stake just to make a stand about the protector issue?
3. Do you think a holy monk who has the power to reincarnate and has been venerated as an emanation of Chenrezig could be harm by a "spirit" and couldn't do anything but to call for "help" to the world to not practice Dorje Shugden?
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Today I watched this Youtube video with the title: Dalai Lama says his Gurus are WRONG!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5HMCA-8pec (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5HMCA-8pec)
I wonder:
If H.H. the Dalai Lama can say that his tutor, Trijang Rinpoche is wrong by practising Dorje Shugden, then it is also possible that what His Holiness himself is teaching can ALSO be wrong.
What His Holiness learned and practice was passed down from his Guru, and if His guru's teachings/practice can be "found" wrong, then logically, it is also possible for Dalai Lama's students or other high lamas to find out that what His Holiness teaches/practice can be wrong.
What do you think?
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1. If His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is a fake, as discussed in WSS's The Great Deception, why do all the High Lamas and even the protectors (taking trance in oracles) still support His Holiness?
2. Why does His Holiness put his "holy monk" and universal spiritual leader fame & reputation at stake just to make a stand about the protector issue?
3. Do you think a holy monk who has the power to reincarnate and has been venerated as an emanation of Chenrezig could be harm by a "spirit" and couldn't do anything but to call for "help" to the world to not practice Dorje Shugden?
Hi Vajraprotector, thanks for asking these questions - these are my answers:
1. He is supported by high lamas because they are either afraid of being punished by not supporting him and they have no freedom (the Tibetan people will generally blindly follow whatever he says), or they themselves are corrupt and playing a political game (as 'A Great Deception' says, "criminals wearing spiritual masks"), or they have blind faith (less likely). There is a lot of pressure on Tibetans to show a unified front - hence all this nonsense about Dorje Shugden being sectarian and dividing the Tibetan people - if they want to get Tibet back. Even though this is never going to happen because the Chinese don't trust the Dalai Lama because of his politicking, it is a method for the Dalai Lama to control the people. If they disagree with him he can say they're being divisive and ruining the chances of Tibetan independence, something he himself gave up on many years ago.
2. He doesn't believe he has put his reputation at stake because he's arrogant and believes he's beyond reproach. This is one reason why he never responded to original requests for dialogue by the Western Shugden Society. The 'Great Fifth' had a similar attitude - he believed that because others regarded him as a holy being he could get away with murder!
3. You're right - if he really was a holy monk capable of reincarnation, or even if he had simply taken Buddhist refuge, the Dalai Lama wouldn't need to fear being harmed by Shugden. So why did he give as one of his reasons for the ban that Dorje Shugden practice was harming his health? He must know that this is a lie and therefore he's being deceptive. It's simply a method to engender a strong emotional reaction in Tibetans so that they will force the wiser, faithful and less superstitious Shugden practitioners to abandon their practice, thereby fulfilling the Dalai Lama's wish to destroy the tradition of relying on Dorje Shugden. As the Dalai Lama himself said:
‘Until now you have a very good job on this issue. Hereafter also, continue this policy in a clever way. We should do it in such a way to ensure that in future generations not even the name of Dhogyal is remembered.”
(From a speech delivered July 14th 1996, in Caux Switzerland)
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Dear Lineageholder,
You didn't answer about the Protectors. Since you seem to know quite a bit about the mind of human beings, I surmise that you might be able to know the answer to the "Protectors" part too. It would be interesting to listen to it.
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Dear Lineageholder,
You didn't answer about the Protectors. Since you seem to know quite a bit about the mind of human beings, I surmise that you might be able to know the answer to the "Protectors" part too. It would be interesting to listen to it.
Dear friend,
I'm not sure about this, so please let me have your view on this because it would be interesting to hear.
My understanding is that all these oracles channel worldly spirits, not enlightened protectors like Dorje Shugden. Worldly spirits are subject to delusions so they make mistakes, get jealous, angry, and so forth, so perhaps this explains why they agree with and support the Dalai Lama - maybe they like to make mischief and the Dalai Lama's ban of Dorje Shugden created just that. Also, these spirits being deluded, have pride and they want to be regarded as important. The Dalai Lama pays them a lot of attention and listens to their advice when no one else would. They naturally want this to continue. If the Dalai Lama didn't rely on them, who would there be to invoke them and listen to them? They would become irrelevant and that's the last thing they want.
Nechung was supposedly jealous of Dorje Shugden and so he gave advice to the Dalai Lama to give up the practice, which, unfortunately, he listened to and followed. Nechung was trying to protect his position in the Dalai Lama's favours which was being threatened by Dorje Shugden, especially since DS gave the Dalai Lama correct information that enabled him to safely escape from Tibet. It's well known that the Nechung oracle was left behind when the Dalai Lama fled and had to make his own escape. This would have led to a simmering resentment towards Shugden. Perhaps Nechung determined to take revenge and since the Dalai Lama is greatly influenced by him, he saw a chance to harm Shugden and consolidate his own position of importance as the main advisor to the Dalai Lama.
What does anyone else think?
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Hello,
I think we should be very careful in what we say about, and how we judge others. Especially in the case of Nechung i have heard many absurd and superstitious theories. Although we might have no direct connection with some protector or deity, its always good to keep good relation with them. After all Nechung is also said to be one of the reasons for Dorje Shugden to arise and many of our Lineage Lamas used to rely on him. Although the explanation of Lineageholder sounds logical there are other possible explanations for the current situation. One of the most prominent Lamas of our lineage on the happy occasion of a private audience once told me that the current Nechung State Oracle as well as the previous one, are complete fake. The Kuten "Lama" is used as a powerfull tool to manipulate Tibetan exile politics in the interest of some criminal individuals and families. He explained at large how the Nechung Oracle was used to kill the 13th Dalai Lama and then later to stop the 14th Dalai Lama from taking the Sog de initiation of Dorje Shugden from HH Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang as well as other accounts of false and manipulative predictions. Even with genuine Oracles it is very difficult to tell when its the deity speaking and when it is contaminated by the ordinary mind of the medium. A friend of mine who was very close with Chöyang Duldzin Kuten Lama told me that only highly realized beings are able to distinguish between the two, apparently Kyabje Song Rinpoche was known for this particular ability.
Love Kelsang
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Dear Lineageholder,
I think you might want to ponder what Kelsang is saying.
After all, the one who requested Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen, Panchen Sonam Drakpa and Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen "to protect" -referring to JE Rinpoché´s teachings- was the great Protector of Tibet: Nechung.
You might also like to look into the research that Trinley Kelsang has heroically been conducting. There he explains a specific circumstance about the Nechung that we all respect not being the "Nechung" that appears in trances (this is an old occurrence).
In a general way it´s very difficult for us, ordinary beings, to judge the motivations of others, particularly in the religious field, be they Protectors or human beings. A drastic judgment about the Lamas that give the appearance of following the DL is a daring judgment that I would abstain from if I were you.
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Thom,
I don´t think such prize is going to further our cause in democratic countries.
The WSS has indeed done a great job in defending those that the Dalai Lama has been persecuting. Unfortunately, a prize coming from China is only going to tip the scales in the DL´s favor, making the world believe that Dharamsala´s accusations --that the Protector´s people are sold to the Chinese-- are correct, when they are not.
I would like to know the answer to that prize from the WSS. I hope it to be sensible.
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People’s Republic of China’s Great Human Rights Prize has been conferred to the Western Shugden Society...
Please help humourless people like me by using apropriate smilies. ;D
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Dear friends,
Thanks for your comments. I've thought about it a bit more and I can see the distinction you are making between Nechung and the Nechung oracle. I myself thought it strange that Trijang Dorjechang explained how Nechung extracted a promise from Duldzin Dragpa to become the protector of Je Tsongkhapa's Dharma and how he then brought together the conditions for Ngatrul Dragpa to become Dorje Shugden and these stories about Nechung being jealous of Dorje Shugden - they did seem to be contradictory, but now all is clear. What you are saying is that the oracle of Nechung, being fake, became jealous and used his power to turn the Dalai Lama away from Dorje Shugden. That makes a lot of sense. :)
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Let's assume that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is really a Bodhisattva. Many people (including global political leaders, and many pioneers & great spritual leaders/ practitioners) have been moved by just being in his presence, way before all the politics and him becoming the icon for Buddhism.
So if HH is a real Bodhisattva,
a) he would not forbid people who practise Dorje Shugden, and should be kind to them, invite them and slowly and give them logic and wisdom without fear because if these practitioners are WRONG, isn't that a BIG reason they need more Dharma and guidance??
b) As far as I know DS practice is not a main yidam/meditational practice, it is a "protector" practice. So if we can't rely on an (so-called) unenlightened protector (while holding our vows well - that means we can't be harmed by spirits) , then we shouldn't even seek help from ALL OTHER unenlightened protectors at all, right?
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The whole issue is meaningless. Because:
1 - He is a human being (a fact)
2 - He is the leader of Tibetans (a fact)
3 - everything else in him, is unproveable (a fact)
All the questions about whether he is or is not the "real thing" are meaningless, because the previously mentioned three points hold true in any event and anything beyond those three, is just imagination, an opinion, a view, or a social contract.
Why would anyone care, or even think about, whether he is "this or that". For he is a human, in a certain social position. That's all. There is no beyond.
And yes, this pretty much holds true with everyone. Including your own Guru. He or she is just "a human, in a certain social position". No biggie. Just practice the teachings; but don't attach to the teacher. The twist is not the Teacher, nor the Teaching, but the practice, you see. And the practice is only made by you yourself! The Buddha merely shows the way.
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I like to be contrarian, I am starting think worldly protectors in general get a really dirty second rate treatment and that isn't correct. Actually so-called worldly protectors are practiced in the Theravada tradition (ie. the Book of Protection) and were the ones appointed directly by Buddha Shakyamuni such as in the Golden Light Sutra. Everything else comes from tantra which not all traditions accept, so historically worldly protectors could be equally important and more transcultural than Vajrayana protectors which tend to be the ones considered transworldly. Just some food for thought....
Yes indeed. It is wonderful that you brought this issue up. Thank you.
It is funny, but it seems that there are many teachings in our tradition (Geluk, Mahayana, Vajrayana), that do not seem to be based on anything, really. For instance, the teaching that if someone has taken the Refuge (in the Three Jewels), no spirit or so forth can harm that person. I have never heard an explanation why this would be so, by any TB-based Teacher. Nor has even JT explained it in the Lamrim Chenmo. Strange. But alas, there is a Theravada Sutta (sorry, I do not remember which, and am too lazy to check it just now), where the Four Kings (of the West, South, etc) approach the Buddha, with all their followers, the Nagas, Yakshas, Kinnaras, Garudas, etc, and they, out of their own accord, proclaim to the Buddha, that as they are followers of the recluse Gotama, the Seer, the Knower of the Worlds, The Unsurpassed, the Samyaksambuddha, they themselves shall not allow any spirit, ghost, or whatever, to harm anyone who likewise follows the same Dharma of Gotama! They say, that they shall make it so. But if there should anyway appear an idiot spirit, who tries something, it can be banished by merely mentioning the names of the Four Kings! The spirit should at that point self-shake itself into a pool of jelly, by the mere fear of having to face the Four Kings and their hosts. But if even that is not enough, the Kings tell Gotama that the followers of Gotama could, at the last resort, recite the Sutta - meaning reciting the names of those Kings and their hosts with the "spiritual ultimatum" that the Kings have made. At that point, the offending spirit will be totally ripped and annihilated by the attacking avalanche of the hosts of the Kings! No harm will come to the followers of Gotama, for they all - that means you and me - are under the protection of the Four Kings and all the yakshas, nagas, and so forth.
These so called worldly gods are the common protectors of all Buddhists. And the key to get their protection is simply to become a follower of the recluse Gotama, that is, the Buddha. If you are a Buddhist, you are automatically protected by these gods, who are in fact, your brothers and sisters, since they too are Buddhists. They are your Sangha members. Truly. The Theravada Sutta is very clear in this. These gods have taken Refuge, and they are intent of protecting everyone who also takes Refuge.
Pretty cool, yeah?
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1. If His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is a fake, as discussed in WSS's The Great Deception, why do all the High Lamas and even the protectors (taking trance in oracles) still support His Holiness?
2. Why does His Holiness put his "holy monk" and universal spiritual leader fame & reputation at stake just to make a stand about the protector issue?
3. Do you think a holy monk who has the power to reincarnate and has been venerated as an emanation of Chenrezig could be harm by a "spirit" and couldn't do anything but to call for "help" to the world to not practice Dorje Shugden?
Just my 2 cents:
1. I don't think HH 14th Dalai Lama is fake. Even if he was identified with ulterior motives, i think that Chenrezig manifested as Lhamo Dondrup in order to guide Tibetan Buddhism to where it is today.
2. Re putting his reputation at risk - there must be a bigger picture at hand. Especially on the basis of 1. if he is an enlightened Being, there must be a reason why HH the Dalai Lama will risk all for a greater benefit for mankind. That's the only logic I can find.
3. Definitely if HH Dalai Lama cannot be harmed by a spirit - why does he keep talking about it in public, despite the risks to his reputation - again, I think he has a much bigger picture in mind.
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But who are these conflicting parties exactly?
Why has this been turned into a circus that has lead to more division than found before 1978?
Also, if the DL truly researched Shugden, why does he only acknowlege negative references?
Why does he speak with so much emotion on this issue?
These are very important questions indeed.
If one thinks clearly, something definitely emerges, no?
:o
:'(
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[Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen] was one of the most prominent lamas of his day, and in fact in some circles was held in even higher regard than was the Great Fifth, for the Fifth at the time was still in his youth.
Ngawang Losang Gyatso b. 1617
Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, b. 1619
Once again, silly scholarship designed to make excuses. The Firfth Dalai Lama was OLDER that Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen.
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1. If His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is a fake, as discussed in WSS's The Great Deception, why do all the High Lamas and even the protectors (taking trance in oracles) still support His Holiness?
1. We venerate and respect our lineage Gurus so highly, as guru devotion is the foundational building block of Tibetan Buddhism. We see them as Buddhas and trust them to take us all the way to Enlightenment. Therefore, logically, if all the High Lamas and Protectors support His Holiness, then HH must be the real deal.
2. Why does His Holiness put his "holy monk" and universal spiritual leader fame & reputation at stake just to make a stand about the protector issue?
2. Methinks HH has a much bigger picture in mind than just taking a stand about this protector issue. What HH has really accomplished after years of the Shugden ban is to raise awareness and the profile of the protector Dorje Shugden to a global level. He's splashed all over the internet and global news media. And HH supporters are knowingly/unknowingly propogating this awareness further. In conclusion, it is out of pure COMPASSION that HH is putting his reputation at stake.
3. Do you think a holy monk who has the power to reincarnate and has been venerated as an emanation of Chenrezig could be harm by a "spirit" and couldn't do anything but to call for "help" to the world to not practice Dorje Shugden?
Course not. It says in the refuge vows that 'one is protected from harm by spirits etc' when one takes refuge. I'm sure HH has taken refuge....
Here's the flipside: Why is it that all the countless fire pujas and exorcism rituals performed by attained masters have failed to bind/destroy/control one angry "spirit"? YOU THINK?
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The whole issue is meaningless. Because:
1 - He is a human being (a fact)
2 - He is the leader of Tibetans (a fact)
3 - everything else in him, is unproveable (a fact)
All the questions about whether he is or is not the "real thing" are meaningless, because the previously mentioned three points hold true in any event and anything beyond those three, is just imagination, an opinion, a view, or a social contract.
So in that same way, for the sake of discussion, I could say that
1 - Dorje Shugden is a spirit in the glass of Gyalpo (a fact)
2 - He has passed away (witnessed by many) and has taken rebirth as a spirit after being "murdered" by the followers of the 5th Dalai Lama, hence similar / no different than an ordinary gyalpo or tsen spirit who has an inferior form ( a fact)
3 - everything else in him, is unproveable
Why would anyone care, or even think about, whether Dorje Shugden is "this or that". For he is a spirit, that's all. There is no beyond.
I personally don’t think that it is so simple to judge the book by it's cover. There are many things that we cannot prove as a fact because there simply is no "agreed by all" way to ‘measure’ or show visible it’s existence at this point of time. So you not being able to see Dorje Shugden doesn’t mean he doesn’t exists and that the fact is he doesn’t exist. I don’t agree point 3 saying that everything else about the Dalai Lama (or in my case Dorje Shugden) is unproveable- there are many ways to prove it, but perhaps not the western scientific way that we have been taught in schools/ college.
Let’s say you have no tradition of oracles, then normal people like you and me wouldn’t be able to ‘see’ Dorje Shugden or prove his existence at all. But to the Tibetans, the protector taking trance through the various oracles, and his continuum in the sense of knowledge/ memories/ consistency has been a valid proof for them for centuries.
I personally think Dorje Shugden is more than just a Gyalpo and His Holiness the Dalai Lama is “just a politician”. If His Holiness is merely a politician that is destroying Dharma & creating “schism” in the Sangha without any reason, do you think all Dharma Protectors, especially Dorje Shugden who has vowed to especially protect the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa would allow him to continue to destroy Tibetan Buddhism’s image and the Dharma?
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Dear Lhakpa Gyaltshen,
Please tell us more of what Dorje Shugden said and about 'retribution'? When and where was it said?
Do give us more details please.
TK
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The whole issue is meaningless. Because:
1 - He is a human being (a fact)
2 - He is the leader of Tibetans (a fact)
3 - everything else in him, is unproveable (a fact)
All the questions about whether he is or is not the "real thing" are meaningless, because the previously mentioned three points hold true in any event and anything beyond those three, is just imagination, an opinion, a view, or a social contract.
So in that same way, for the sake of discussion, I could say that
1 - Dorje Shugden is a spirit in the glass of Gyalpo (a fact)
2 - He has passed away (witnessed by many) and has taken rebirth as a spirit after being "murdered" by the followers of the 5th Dalai Lama, hence similar / no different than an ordinary gyalpo or tsen spirit who has an inferior form ( a fact)
3 - everything else in him, is unproveable
Why would anyone care, or even think about, whether Dorje Shugden is "this or that". For he is a spirit, that's all. There is no beyond.
Ah, but you could not say that.
1 - Although Dorje Shugden is a non-material being, the issue of whether he is of this or that class remains disputable, not a fact. Hence all the hulabaloo. (In fact, most Buddhists do not even know what a gyalpo or tsen means, so these are hardly facts, even by general Buddhist standards, but just some Tibetan superstitious ballyhoo.)
2 - Drakpa Gyaltsen has passed away, yes, a fact, but we do not know how he died or what happened to him afterwards, but since we are not making pujas to him but to Dorje Shugden, it does not matter. Drakpa Gyaltsen is a case of rumours, not facts.
3 - The cases of Dorje Shugden being in truth Manjushri, and Dalai Lama in truth Avalokita, are not facts, but religious beliefs, applicable only within certain schools of Buddhism.
But when it comes to the Dalai Lama, it is sure that he is a human being, since he has a mother with a womb, and a father with, well, a vajra. This is a fact. And whether the Dalai Lama is the leader of Tibetans, well, this is a fact, disputed only by Beijing. Whether he is a Bhikkhu, is not proven. Not a fact. But he is a human leader, factually. Maybe we could just see him in that way, through the facts, universally accepted and proveable. For his disciples who have received an empowerment, he is factually of course a Buddha, but that is not generally applicable view, nor an universally valid truth, but merely a tantric view. Similarly, we hold Dorje Shugden to be a Buddha, because of the tradition of Vajrayana. For a Theravadin or a Zen practitioner, neither the Dalai Lama or our Dorje Shugden are Buddhas. This has to be understood. The view of them being Avalokita and Manjushri applies only within certain circles, not outside.
But to the question of why would anyone care, or even think about, whether Dorje Shugden is "this or that", for he is a spirit, that's all, the answer lies in not his alleged status as a Buddha or a demon, but in his status as a religious object of faith and worship. Of course the same could be said of the Dalai Lama, but then again, he is evidently, factually, a human leader of humans, so he is in a different class, when it comes to the Law, and the Freedom of Worship. He can and should be criticized, ousted and censured, if need be, as he is a human leader, but Shugden cannot and should not, as he is a deity.
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Well, I tend to follow Dagom Rinpoche's view, that the Dalai Lama is the Dalai Lama in name.
What does this mean? What did Dagom Rinpoche say exactly?
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OK, maybe this needs to be spelled out clearly for it to be understood:
How about treating humans as humans?
Not as some previous humans, not as gods-in-flesh, not as ideals, but just humans.
Anyone care to join me in this horridly revolutionary and utterly irrational view?
Namely: Seeing humans as humans.
:D ??? :o ;D
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Dear Lineageholder,
You didn't answer about the Protectors. Since you seem to know quite a bit about the mind of human beings, I surmise that you might be able to know the answer to the "Protectors" part too. It would be interesting to listen to it.
My understanding is that all these oracles channel worldly spirits, not enlightened protectors like Dorje Shugden.
Eh? What about the oracle who was present at the Shar Gaden opening??? Is he a fake too, and only channelling a worldly spirit...? ???
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1. If His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is a fake, as discussed in WSS's The Great Deception, why do all the High Lamas and even the protectors (taking trance in oracles) still support His Holiness?
2. Why does His Holiness put his "holy monk" and universal spiritual leader fame & reputation at stake just to make a stand about the protector issue?
3. Do you think a holy monk who has the power to reincarnate and has been venerated as an emanation of Chenrezig could be harm by a "spirit" and couldn't do anything but to call for "help" to the world to not practice Dorje Shugden?
1. Urgh, that's one book I really didn't like even if it was supposedly in support of our dharma protector. I've never read something so militant and venomous in my life - it was entirely focused on destroying people's faith in HHDL, and had nothing to do with supporting our protector and educating people about our protector. Our protector's never once uttered a word against HHDL, so why should we?? Anyway, I like to think all the high lamas are in cahoots with HHDL and DS, and thinking of skilful means to increase how famous DS becomes. So on both sides, there are high lamas supporting either POVs to keep the issue going (if too many high lamas go to one side of the issue, it's going to make it very one-sided and not worth a debate)
2. To me, it's clearly not about the money as many DS people keep claiming. I mean, doesn't he earn more from having a good reputation? (look at what happened to Tiger Woods! Hehe) HHDL reads news reports, he hears from his people what's going on, and anyone who isn't blind can see that his reputation is slowly being eroded. I don't think it's arrogance manifesting as obliviousness as some would suggest, because no one can be THAT oblivious.
3. No he can't be harmed, that's why I think anti-DS people need to think a little deeper! Someone needs to remind them (nicely!) that many high lamas have practised DS and come back without any problems!
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...let's consider a recent speech by the Dalai Lama himself earlier this month in Bodh Gaya. He claims his ban on Shugden is definitive and final, not something that should be ignored as interpretive. So from the DL's side himself, he is denying he wants people to ignore his advice on this and continue doing Dorje Shugden practice anyways..... :-\ So it is precisely this view mentioned in quotes above that he is seeking to refute now.
If I was the Dalai Lama, I too would 'make a stand' to deny emerging public opinion that I was trying to promote Dorje Shugden's practice in a skilful subtle way. Why? Because if that was really true, it would weaken his entire game plan if the truth came to light. Dorje Shugden's practice is growing even more in popularity and awareness but not yet at a level where it is unstoppable. Hence DL continues to stand firm on this issue.
Also, this Dalai Lama may never officially change his mind on this issue but who know what the next Dalai Lama will do? Many people who follow this Dalai Lama's words unthinkingly will be gone, many who have received direct teachings from him will also be gone. When the current Dalai Lama passes on, what will the Tibetan government do? The next generation of Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhist practitioners will have much more freedom of choice, no longer backed into a corner by Guru Devotion or politics.
Well, that's what i'd like to think. There are so many lamas who have received teachings from DL and who are following his way. And many more from other lineages who support this ban. And those who do not comply by the ban but have outwardly sworn in. If we look up to them as our teachers, there must be some sense in what they are doing, not just self interest or self protection.
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Sorry to repeat something that I have said in different ways a thousand times now. But either Beggar is back with a vengeance or he procreated and his kids have just invaded the website. This is a joke of course, and my love for Beggar is unshakable, but my disagreement with him has not ceased. So, for those like Beggar who fantasize that the Dalai Lama did what he did out of some skillful means, here goes again.
--I consider a wrong view quite pernicious to go about saying that the Dalai Lama did what he did out of compassion in order to disseminate the cult of the Protector, or in order to benefit in some other unknown mysterious way the teachings and beings or even the Tibetans. This sounds quite virtuous, to maintain this view, but it´s not. It´s a wrong view, a type of superstition, maintained either out of innocent ignorance or out of other motivations, like repeating what others are saying or even out of some compassion for the Dalai Lama´s followers.
But Buddhas act like in the Anglo-Saxon law: following precedents. For instance, the Buddhas with the marks they all are born in the Himalayas, they all are enlightened sitting under the Bodhi Tree, etc. There is no precedent of a Buddha that shows himself as such (and the Dalai Lama does, since he accepts the title of Chenrezig that he´s been awarded with) there is no precedent that they turn against their Gurus or that they split the Sangha or that they massively persecute people out of religious discrimination. Lord Atisha didn´t do this, Lord Tsongkapa didn´t do this, and that´s that: enough precedence for me, as to how a Guru/Buddha should conduct himself in the face of the world.
How do you imagine that Buddhas that give the appearance of Guru/Buddhas go about showing the opposite of that which is their main, basic job: to show beings what to adopt and what to abandon? This doesn´t stand to reason.
(Here I beg any potential debater to please not come back again with examples that have nothing, nothing to do with this case, like Tilopa eating fish in front of Naropa or Marpa throwing Mila through the window; this does not fall into the public level I am talking about, that has nothing to do with the intimate Guru/disciple relationship. So please skip these and other similar examples. Skip also that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche said this or that. Kyabje Rinpoche was the Guru of the Dalai Lama and loved his disciple tenderly and never abandoned him; while he was alive he tried to maintain the door open for him to make amends, and for the Tibetans in exile not to loose hope, but once he passed away … a door closed in a definitive way, so do not try to give me that one either).
So please, again, try not to demean the holy Buddha's actions by trying to give a seal of approval to that which only deserves our sad silence at best.
Lord Atisha in his compassion spoke quite severely against this contempt of the conventional truth. He said: "However, if one ignores the valid conventional level of truth ... one will mishandle conventional truths such as good and bad, cause and effect, etc., and will suffer in this and future lives."
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Just some interesting reads I'd like to share.
I've learned from the lineage history of Dorje Shugden that in Dorje Shugden's previous incarnations, he and the Dalai Lama was very close and often manifested as student and/or teacher and vice versa. Here is just an example extracted from shugden.tripod.com.
Panchen Yeshe Wang-po : (1507-1566)
When the Third Dalai Lama and Panchen Wang-po, then twenty-two years old, were teaching in Kham and Mongolia, the Dharma king of Mongolia, Alten Khan bestowed a special name and high position to Panchen Wangpo. On their return to central Tibet, the Third Dalai Lama and Panchen Wang-po went to Demchok Choling in Dena; Chamdo Jambuling in Kham. The Third Dalai Lama told him to stay in Chamdo to resolve a political problem that was brewing there. He was also put in charge of the making of a large Buddha statue for Gerchen in Litang. The Third Dalai Lama wrote a praise of Panchen Wang-po's works. Panchen Wang-po wrote a poem of praise of the life of the Third Dalai Lama and also wrote a history of Buddhism and many other works.
Panchen Sönam Tsemo : (1567-1626)
Ngawang Sönam Geley (Panchen Söman Tsemo) was born in the earth horse year (52nd) of the tenth rabjam (1567-1626) in Reboo near Yur-ka. His father's name was Saype and mother was Sönam Drolma. He was reciting many mantras at an early age and he also remember his previous life as Panchen Wang-po.
Yonten Gyatso, the Fourth Dalai Lama and Sönam Geley went to Chomoling, near Lhasa. They studied Sutra and Tantra together as well as being each other's teacher. At this time many Mongolian Pilgrims came to Lhasa and made offering to Sönam Geley and requested teaching. Sönam Geley and Panchen Chokyi Gyeltsen gave gelong vows to the Fourth Dalai Lama.
It's really interesting to be witnessed of this new controversy and how it will shape the world's future. What I find truly interesting is that the more harsh HH the Dalai Lama is to Dorje Shugden ban, the more it FUELS it. The more the world feeds on it. It's like as if HH is trying to create a huge awareness campaign about Dorje Shugden indirectly so that poeple who are against it will 'shutup' (the real political sactarians and power hunger insecure ones) while people who does the practice, their Guru Devotion is put to the ultimate test. What do you all think?
Yes on one hand it looks so uncompassionate of HH the Dalai Lama to be letting so many people get hurt now, but does it out weigh the billions of people it will benefit in the future? China is big, but the world plus China? HUGE!
I am sure the Dalai Lama would have thought about all the consequences. Yet He is so kind to sacrifice his name and what people think of him for now. At the momentit appears like he is the BAD Dorje Shugden cop. We really cannot judge anyone's motive and sometimes the results can only be seen far later in the future.
What more is there to say after hearing the news on HH Gaden Trisur's defect to Shar Gaden.
I doubt HH Gaden Trisur is not purposely trying to go against Dalai Lama. WHO knows maybe he is making a stand to set an example on following what is true to your heart because it is truth. For all we know maybe Gaden Trisur, Dalai Lama and all the high Lamas are orchestrating this whole issue to plant and preserve Dorje Shugden practice well into the future, I don't know, but who knows???
Whatever it may be, it's best to just sincerely do your own practice, stay away from politics as Dharma is about renouncing worldly agendas. I read somewhere, perhaps on this site itself that HH Trijang Dorje Chang said that we should not lose faith in HH Dalai lama and also the Protector Dorje Shugden. I can't wait for His bio book to be out!
Make Love Not War!
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Great debates going on here...
i'm also for 'make love not war'...
On a personal level, I have created a petition which i hope will garner some awareness and support:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/allegiance-to-holy-dorje-shugden
Keep debating... it's the core of Tibetan Buddhism, but it's not necessary to get personal. I'd like to think that we can respect each other's opinions though we can beg to disagree.
from a wannabe wisdom being ::)
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Thank you Kate! I've just signed the petition and I encourage everyone to do so too!
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/allegiance-to-holy-dorje-shugden
Tenzin
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Dear Zhalmed Pawo,
I do agree with you that your points are very logical, and thanks for sharing your ideas.
But some questions from me below that I hope you can help me understand:
Ah, but you could not say that.
1 - Although Dorje Shugden is a non-material being, the issue of whether he is of this or that class remains disputable, not a fact. Hence all the hulabaloo. (In fact, most Buddhists do not even know what a gyalpo or tsen means, so these are hardly facts, even by general Buddhist standards, but just some Tibetan superstitious ballyhoo.)
How do you prove that Dorje Shugden exist then- whether he's a gyalpo or tsen etc?
Are you saying because he is a non-material being, hence we cannot prove that he exist ?
Then how about Buddhas? They exist as non-material beings too.
How do you explain the oracles and the high lamas (including His Holiness himself) composing praises etc? Are they then mere superstition? You said that, in your second point, "making pujas to Dorje Shugden". Why do so if he doesn't exist?
Does it mean all these 'methods' are discounted because these methods cannot objectively prove a non-material being exi
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whether the Dalai Lama is the leader of Tibetans, well, this is a fact, disputed only by Beijing.
If it is disputed by Beijing, who officially owns Tibet, and this fact is not officially recognised by any government in writing, how can this be a fact?
Also, the purpose of asking questions to ponder who Dalai Lama is, is to encourage discussion of whether or not there is something else than just judging the book by its cover. This is because I feel that many sites that I’ve visited, it’s either they are pro Dalai Lama & against DS or pro Dorje Shugden & against Dalai Lama.
If the pro-Dalai Lama group is right, then why can’t Dalai Lama or any high lama from Tibet who could subdue/vanquish evil spirits kill Dorje Shugden– since Dorje Shugden is a spirit and a huge threat to Dalai Lama.
If the pro- Dorje Shugden is right, that Dalai Lama is false and has mixed politics with religion –unlike the 1st- 4th Dalai Lama who promoted Dharma purely; I do think Dalai Lama is doing his job – he’s the one who has made Tibetan Buddhism a household name, especially among the celebrities and world politicians , and is the no. 1 icon of Tibetan Buddhism, which no other lama can rival at this time.
Also, due to this controversy, Dorje Shugden practice has received much more publicity and is growing bigger and stronger. So isn’t that what he’s doing – promoting the Dharma? In fact no Tibetan Lama is more famous than him in this time in promoting Tibetan Buddhism and “promoting” Dorje Shugden regardless of what they have done.
What does everybody think?
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It's the same old arguments...they don't sound any fresher or more convincing for the fifth time!
What does everybody think?
I think I'm about to be sick! :D
Perhaps I should benefit the Dharma through enforced signature campaigns, disparaging my Gurus, evicting monks from their monasteries, splitting up families, sticking up 'wanted posters' in Dharamsala encouraging violence towards Shugden practitioners and speaking hypocritically?
Only Langdarma did a better job of promoting the Dharma than the Dalai Lama! ;D (http://dorjeshugdentruth.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/dalai-lama-bon.jpg) Perhaps they are related?
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Dear Lineageholder and everyone,
I do really wish to hear and learn points that are fresh and convincing :) because I am not convinced with:
a) the "political" reasons why I must hate Dalai Lama for being a hypocrite who's power crazy and has disparaged his Gurus, who has caused Tibetan Buddhism to deteriorate. Image wise yes, but growth wise, it has actually a reverse effect.
b) the arguments that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit which I also wonder - so many high lamas propagate, practise and wrote/ talks about Dorje Shugden's mental continuum being that of exalted lamas. And that these lamas, e.g. Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche are back!
I am confused because in the various Dharma books and prayers, I was taught to believe (all these while) that Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara and Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, and it seems to contradict.
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Only Langdarma did a better job of promoting the Dharma than the Dalai Lama! ;D
Now now, do not speak bad about King Langdarma. According to the most recent views about the old history of Tibet, Langdarma did not do anything against the Dharma. He merely withdrew the stately allowances and benefits from the monasteries. So all he did, was that he did not to do anything. (And this he had to do, since the State was bankrupt.) He did not destroy anything, except the grand plans of some monastic estate-masters. That's all.
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Dear Dharmadefender, Vajraprotector and other Vinayaholders and Noobs as they have just been baptised:
There is a difference between it doesn't mean I'll ever talk bad about the Dalai Lama and propounding that the Dalai Lama did what he did out of some secret good motivation, because he is a Great Bodhisattva.
There is no Buddha that ever campaigned against his Gurus,
ever campaigned against the lineage Gurus,
ever dared say that his Gurus are WRONG, yes, with this tone, WRONG, and he, right;
ever forced people to break their samaya with their own Gurus,
ever forced a schism in the Sangha
ever persecuted people, let alone for religious reasons.
Lord Atisha didn´t do it
Lord Tsong Khapa didn´t do it
This should suffice for anyone that uses his mind with the tools of reasoning --a very special characteristic of our lineage-- to stop saying such nonsense as we´ve read from some posts in the last days. I would like those who are writing along those lines, whether they are one or many, Noobs or old ones to think twice before demeaning the enlightened actions of our Buddhas by comparing them to the actions of the Tibetan leader.
One thing is to say I don't know which his intentions were, another, entirely different, is to speculate that he might´ve had good motivations. In Buddhism there is no good motivations for the list of actions described above, in particular there is no good motivation to mistreat your Lama, to betray him. So instead of speculating about the bad karma that those who criticize the DL might incur, think on the karmic repercusions for yourself or those who are disseminating this terrible view, that Guru Buddhas can act in such non Dharmic ways and still be called Guru Buddhas. Now, this brings the destruction of Dharma, to confuse people about such serious matter. So please for your own sake, think twice.
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a) the "political" reasons why I must hate Dalai Lama for being a hypocrite who's power crazy and has disparaged his Gurus, who has caused Tibetan Buddhism to deteriorate. Image wise yes, but growth wise, it has actually a reverse effect.
I am confused because in the various Dharma books and prayers, I was taught to believe (all these while) that Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara and Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, and it seems to contradict.
Dear Vajraprotector,
We should not hate the Dalai Lama, we should pity him while at the same time not excusing his destructive actions and trying to dress them up to appear spiritual simply because we don't want to let go of the idea that he's a Buddha.
There is no evidence from the Dalai Lama's actions that he's a Buddha. Does a Buddha cause suffering or develop irrational wishes to abandon the spiritual practices given to them by their Gurus?
I find it curious that you want to attribute the development of the Dharma to the Dalai Lama's actions. Why do you make that connection? Why don't you think it's due to 'damage limitation' actions by Dorje Shugden and all the other Buddhas and Dharma protectors? The very function of Dorje Shugden is to cause the Dharma to flourish in these degenerate times. I think he's doing a very good job, despite interference by the Dalai Lama.
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How do you prove that Dorje Shugden exist then- whether he's a gyalpo or tsen etc?
Are you saying because he is a non-material being, hence we cannot prove that he exist ?
Yes. And the same holds to them all, like for instance Manjushri the Peaceful, Avalokita, Vajrapani, etc. They cannot be proven to exist, at least in an open way. They are religious beliefs, not universal facts. (A practitioner with certain experiences might have a different story to tell, but, and this is the but, he cannot prove it to non-practitioners.)
Then how about Buddhas? They exist as non-material beings too.
Yes, but maybe not. Doctrinally the existence of a Buddha, a Tathagata, is beyond the scope of language and concepts. They might be perceived as partaking in our lives, but you cannot prove it universally.
How do you explain the oracles and the high lamas (including His Holiness himself) composing praises etc? Are they then mere superstition?
Anybody with a pen and a piece of paper can compose anything. I have no further view on this matter.
You said that, in your second point, "making pujas to Dorje Shugden". Why do so if he doesn't exist?
If I make an concentrated wish of good, it has a function, and I never said that Shugden would not exist. I merely said that the avalokitahood of Dalai Lama is logically on the same stool as the devilhood of Shugden. They depend on issuance.
Does it mean all these 'methods' are discounted because these methods cannot objectively prove a non-material being exi [sic]
No buddhist is asking to be "proofed about" the existence of this or that. If you are a Buddhist, you'll agree. If you are a Buddhist disputant, you'll agree also. To even ask, that if "methods cannot objectively prove a non-material being" pretty much shows, that you are not a Buddhist. Or then maybe you are merely a Buddhist super-disputant. I'll let the "debate-audience" to judge on that matter.
And as to the Tibet issue, it really does not matter. Everybody, including the Commie China, thinks that Dalai Lama is the Leader of Tibetans, for if they wouldn't, there wouldn't be a problem with Beijing and TGIE.
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Guys, honestly I don't know for sure if he is emanation of Chenrezig or he is who he say he is. There are quite a lot of people who believe that he is and there are many who don't as well. Both of these groups have relatively good points to state their case. I don't deny the atrocities and persecution that is happening and I don't think it is even remotely Buddhist.
However, what I am really concerned is Dorje Shugden. Is the Dalai Lama's policy successful in eliminating this practice or is it making it big? Personally, I feel that instead of wiping Dorje Shugden out, he is making this practice bigger than ever. The Chinese are promoting it, NKT with Dorje Shugden amongst its main practices, it is probably the biggest group of centers in the world and along with WSS loudly asserting their rights! There is unprecedented publicity going on all the time on the net, media and amongst critics about how evil the Dalai Lama is and how Dorje Shugden practitioners are being persecuted. This sounds like the persecution of the Roman Christians a long time ago. They faired a lot worse as they were captured and were fed to the lions as part of the deadly gladiator sports. Now look what happened to the Christian faith? Anyway, I think Dorje Shugden practice will probably outlive Dalai Lama (no disrespect intended if he is Chenrezig incarnate but he is still in a human body) and then what? It goes mainstream worldwide or it dies off? ???
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Dear Trinley Kelsang,
Thank you for bringing up this issue and facing it.
I confess that trying to stop this wrong view that harms Dharma in general (the view about DL as Buddha, and DL doing heavy non virtuous deeds that in reality one should consider great) I overlooked the obvious: that the main argument of its proponents might not be a valid argument.
And now that you state it, I can see how this is true, their argument is not a valid argument, at best is a sophism. Let´s look again:
1- the fact that our sacred Protector´s name has become somehow famous because of the demonization didn´t bring multitudes to his practice, this is simply not true. And I fail to imagine which is the advantage to have given the world an image of our holy Protector as a demon, a being intent in harming.
2- the fact of the persecution has destroyed in actuality the Gelugpa Sangha, and I really can´t see the advantage of this, either for the teachings nor for sentient beings.
3- the situation in the Tibetan communities in the whole world has become a nightmare for practitioners and families of practitioners, and definitively not conducive for the practice of Dharma in general and our holy lineage´s teachings in particular.
4- the situation in Tibet is appalling, the people sent by the DL and his government have destroyed the peace of monastic communities; Litang has been more than once the target of those vigilantes from Dharamsala.
5- in these cases it´s not true that the Chinese support the Protector´s practitioners, if there is the slightest threat of chaos they strike.
6- were all of the above not true, we still are in the position of wondering: where is the advantage for the teachings and sentient beings in the promotion of a cult? We do not want to spread the worshipping of our sacred Protector as if it were some type of self existing celestial figure. Dorje Shugden, our holy one, arises in dependence of Je Tsongkhapa´s teachings and his promise to protect the teachings and the practitioners who have as their main aim in life to become Buddhas for the sake of sentient beings relying on those teachings of Ganden Mountain. All the rest is politics and superstition.
Trinley Kelsang, this website is becoming more and more a political arena. Were it not for the sake of establishing some basic conventional truths for the innocent readers that truly come here to understand this painful issue, I would leave this place altogether.
You please keep on with your amazing historical research, your activities are thoroughly useful and beneficial.
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so conclusion: Dorje Shudgen made a mistake by saving the Dalai Lama when he should have eliminated him and because he made a mistake Dorje Shudgen's not a Buddha.
If you dont trust Dorje Shudgen's judgement, you dont trust him. ha ha!
stop using Shudgen as an excuse to promote hate. he will not be happy because he's a real Dharma protector. If he was worldy he would have been extremely delighted by all the hate against the Dalai Lama that we have all been talking about here. and if we encourage that we're just proving the point that he is worldy.
or are some people here just here to give a bad impression of Dorje Shudgen practitioners? oh boy.
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so conclusion: Dorje Shudgen made a mistake by saving the Dalai Lama when he should have eliminated him and because he made a mistake Dorje Shudgen's not a Buddha.
Nobody asserts that Dorje Shugden should or should have eliminated the DL, this comes from your own twisted view.
If you dont trust Dorje Shudgen's judgement, you dont trust him. ha ha!
We'll just have to disagree on what Dorje Shugdens motives are wont we?
stop using Shudgen as an excuse to promote hate. he will not be happy because he's a real Dharma protector. If he was worldy he would have been extremely delighted by all the hate against the Dalai Lama that we have all been talking about here. and if we encourage that we're just proving the point that he is worldy.
or are some people here just here to give a bad impression of Dorje Shudgen practitioners? oh boy.
[i]Nobody is promoting hatred.(Well apart from the DL and TGIE that is). It seems you are trying to tar DS practitioners with your twisted logic brush, but it wont work. All the DS practitioners I know are doing their best to practise Dharma purely and have a good and kind heart. I know they do not have hate for the DL but they dont agree with his actions and most dont believe he is an enlightened being, just a deluded worldly person. Some believe he is a powerful Behar spirit here to destroy authentic Dharma. Those beliefs are their own business and do not make them bad examples. If people stick up for their tradition, with a kind and compasisonate heart (yes and also wrathful) then I salute them.
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so conclusion: Dorje Shudgen made a mistake by saving the Dalai Lama when he should have eliminated him and because he made a mistake Dorje Shudgen's not a Buddha.
Nobody asserts that Dorje Shugden should or should have eliminated the DL, this comes from your own twisted view.
If you dont trust Dorje Shudgen's judgement, you dont trust him. ha ha!
We'll just have to disagree on what Dorje Shugdens motives are wont we?
stop using Shudgen as an excuse to promote hate. he will not be happy because he's a real Dharma protector. If he was worldy he would have been extremely delighted by all the hate against the Dalai Lama that we have all been talking about here. and if we encourage that we're just proving the point that he is worldy.
or are some people here just here to give a bad impression of Dorje Shudgen practitioners? oh boy.
[i]Nobody is promoting hatred.(Well apart from the DL and TGIE that is). It seems you are trying to tar DS practitioners with your twisted logic brush, but it wont work. All the DS practitioners I know are doing their best to practise Dharma purely and have a good and kind heart. I know they do not have hate for the DL but they dont agree with his actions and most dont believe he is an enlightened being, just a deluded worldly person. Some believe he is a powerful Behar spirit here to destroy authentic Dharma. Those beliefs are their own business and do not make them bad examples. If people stick up for their tradition, with a kind and compasisonate heart (yes and also wrathful) then I salute them.
some of the things here written in this forum strongly imply much hatred and disrespect for DL. which proves their point on why not to practice DS.
I know some Shudgen practitioners who love the Dalai Lama normally, and even if they're uncomfortable with his actions they keep them quiet and not make their beliefs known because they know its gonna aggravate the problems more. They never speak of how bad DL is even when asked under pressure. But they are Shudgen practitioners.
imagine if someone quotes some anti DL quote here and says 'this is EXACTLY why we should not practice Shudgen' wouldnt be the same as making a bad name for Dorje Shudgen? do i need to start a whole PR class?
i'm gonna show this forum to my monk friends maybe they'll laugh really hard when they see how funny some comments can be :p...
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i'm gonna show this forum to my monk friends maybe they'll laugh really hard when they see how funny some comments can be :p...
I'm sure they won't laugh half as hard as the Dalai Lama will laugh to realize that no matter how badly he acts, people will still condone what he does and make excuses for him out of blind faith that he's a Buddhist Teacher and Saviour of Tibet. What you're doing with your posts is subtly advocating keeping quiet because it reflects badly on Dorje Shugden.
Mara will be delighted!
Since the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, when the job was politicised, the Dalai Lamas have been able to get away with murder and people have just kept quiet. Since those of us in the West are not under his power, we can tell the truth. And make no mistake, we will, to protect this lineage.
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so it's not clear if Shugden practice is "opening" as a result of the DL.
Well I doubt many people outside of the Tibetan communities would've heard of the practice had the Dalai Lama not created such a discordant image of a monk suppressing religious activities?
As far as Dorje Shugden in Tibet goes, yes there are some areas that have remained loyal, but there are also places that have virtually wiped it out (literally in Litang monastery). After the DL's speeches in January 2008 many people left Pomra Khangtsen in Sera in Lhasa following the DL's purge. With a few exceptions Dorje Shugden is no where to be seen in Lhasa.
Genuine question (in case you think I'm being smarmy!) - where do you get all of your information from? I've been reading your incredibly well-informed posts and regardless of what you may think of me, I'm very impressed with your sources!
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Well I doubt many people outside of the Tibetan communities would've heard of the practice had the Dalai Lama not created such a discordant image of a monk suppressing religious activities?
Is that also how to make Tara, Manjushri, and Avalokiteshvara popular? If so, why not ban them for the same 'reason'?!
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i'm gonna show this forum to my monk friends maybe they'll laugh really hard when they see how funny some comments can be :p...
I'm sure they won't laugh half as hard as the Dalai Lama will laugh to realize that no matter how badly he acts, people will still condone what he does and make excuses for him out of blind faith that he's a Buddhist Teacher and Saviour of Tibet. What you're doing with your posts is subtly advocating keeping quiet because it reflects badly on Dorje Shugden.
Mara will be delighted!
Since the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, when the job was politicised, the Dalai Lamas have been able to get away with murder and people have just kept quiet. Since those of us in the West are not under his power, we can tell the truth. And make no mistake, we will, to protect this lineage.
how? by attracting more hate and misunderstanding to it?
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What hate?
i can comprehend how you can brand someone to be a hungry ghost and not hate them. lets stop the hypocrisy
i'm starting to feel that many Shudgen practitioners are starting to get twisted and warped...what is wrong with just practicing Shudgen and not criticizing anyone no matter what they do while doing that?
so if DL banned Shudgen, why not prove him wrong by behaving ourselves? Thats a smarter idea rather than behaving like people consumed with hate?
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so if DL banned Shudgen, why not prove him wrong by behaving ourselves? Thats a smarter idea rather than behaving like people consumed with hate?
I would say that DS-practitioners do behave themselves incredibly well.
But sadly, merely being silent is not always the good option. There is the old saying that "for the evil to triumph, all it takes is that the good men do nothing". I'm not saying that this or that is evil, but just making a point. If religious traditions are banned by politicians or dictators, while the supporters of those politicians and dicrators roam around oppressing and ostracizing people, then the good men must speak up. The most worrisome aspect of all this is not that some DS-practitioners go over the top in their speech, but that almost all non-DS-practitioners remain silent and let the ban with all the ostracism happen while they look elsewhere.
In totalitarian regimes people usually look elsewhere. There is the German saying that "when they came for the Jews, we were silent; when they came for the gypsies, we were silent; when they came for the homosexuals, we were silent; and now that they come to us Christians, who is left there to speak for us?" In Communist regimes the game was, and is, just the same. People are too afraid to speak up, and prefer to look elsewhere. The Tibetan society, and the Tibetan Buddhist social sphere, seem to be similar totalitarian regimes. Nobody speaks up. Everybody looks elsewhere, and hope that 'if only they wouldn't come to get me today'.
But please do remember, that when faced with injustice, if you remain silent you are enabling the injustice to happen; you are then part of the problem, part of the social mechanics of oppression and ostracism. If somebody is throwing a stone, and you just look elsewhere, without even trying to stop the thrower, you are then in cahoots with the stone-thrower, throwing the stone with him. One has to really wonder why the Tibetans, especially the so-called High Lamas, remain silent. Why they do not openly declare what is Dharma, and what is not? Why doesn't the Dalai Lama say to his Dalai-Jugend that stoning monks is against the Dharma? Why didn't the Tai Situpa tell his followers that stone-throwing is not part of following the Karma Kagyu? Well, the answer to that is simply that the Tibetan society is a totalitarian regime. It is not built upon Buddhism, but upon violence and oppression.
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There is the old saying that "for the evil to triumph, all it takes is that the good men do nothing".
Perfect! I completely agree.
This completely encapsulates what we are doing, and why. We cannot do nothing, for Mara will triumph (take that as you will).
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i can comprehend how you can brand someone to be a hungry ghost and not hate them. lets stop the hypocrisy
i'm starting to feel that many Shudgen practitioners are starting to get twisted and warped...what is wrong with just practicing Shudgen and not criticizing anyone no matter what they do while doing that?
so if DL banned Shudgen, why not prove him wrong by behaving ourselves? Thats a smarter idea rather than behaving like people consumed with hate?
If you cannot see how someone can be seen as a hungry ghost and still be loved I feel sorry for your practice. Since hungry ghosts are our kind mothers we do need to remember their kindness to us in pas lives and also cherish them. This cherishing also means that if we thing they are wrong, leading people astray, we can say so with a good motivation. This in order to protect others and in order to protect them from the negative consequences of their actions. (DL stop lying ! he he he :) ) You seem to be convinced that Dorje Shugden practitioners who criticize the DL cannot have compassion for him, you are wrong. Anyway I wont be able to convince you , and it is not my wish, I'm just explaining my position. If you don't believe me that is your freedom.
Vajra
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Well I doubt many people outside of the Tibetan communities would've heard of the practice had the Dalai Lama not created such a discordant image of a monk suppressing religious activities?
Is that also how to make Tara, Manjushri, and Avalokiteshvara popular? If so, why not ban them for the same 'reason'?!
Tara, Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara were already popular and known outside of Tibet before the Tibetans lost their country.
Tara came from India so she was already known outside of Tibet. Manjushri and Avalokiteshvara are both very popular throughout Asia, with Manjushri's seat being in Wu Tai Shan (China) and Avalokiteshvara being very popular with, for example, many old Chinese grannies as peaceful Kuan Yin :P those deities you named all had followings outside of Tibet prior to Tibetans losing their country.
Besides, it depends on the deity and time, doesn't it? For example, Vajrayogini's blessings will become more powerful during the Kaliyuga. Likewise perhaps controversy is what's needed for Dorje Shugden's practice to spread.
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Likewise perhaps controversy is what's needed for Dorje Shugden's practice to spread.
Then, isn't the WSS being helpful in keeping the controversy alive? According to your logic, China will want to promote the Dorje Shugden practice more if they perceive it helps to diminish the influence of the Dalai Lama. Maybe the WSS's book is actually part of this 'bigger picture' you guys keep pushing.
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Likewise perhaps controversy is what's needed for Dorje Shugden's practice to spread.
Then, isn't the WSS being helpful in keeping the controversy alive? According to your logic, China will want to promote the Dorje Shugden practice more if they perceive it helps to diminish the influence of the Dalai Lama. Maybe the WSS's book is actually part of this 'bigger picture' you guys keep pushing.
I want to think that keeping the controversy alive is good - so that more people will get to know Dorje Shugden, but NOT in the way that defame Dalai Lama, calling him a fake, and holding no strong arguments against his ban but to expose his faults and open secrets and his wish to gain power.
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Yet, the Dalai Lama calls Dorje Shugden (and his followers) a fake, has no strong arguments against the practice (and doesn't entertain counterarguments against him), and calls Dorje Shugden (and his followers) sectarians who wish to gain power.
Isn't that how the Dalai Lama is keeping the controversy alive from his side?
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Likewise perhaps controversy is what's needed for Dorje Shugden's practice to spread.
Then, isn't the WSS being helpful in keeping the controversy alive? According to your logic, China will want to promote the Dorje Shugden practice more if they perceive it helps to diminish the influence of the Dalai Lama. Maybe the WSS's book is actually part of this 'bigger picture' you guys keep pushing.
By my logic, yes that would happen and you know what? I hope it does. As a country that's so rapidly developing, I hope that China does spread Dorje Shugden's practice so that the minds of their people are protected. That's a sixth of the world's population who have potential exposure to Dorje Shugden's holy mantra...why wouldn't I want for that to happen??
Perhaps the WSS book IS part of this bigger picture. However, it does nothing to educate people about Dorje Shugden. In fact, it's more likely that the Chinese govt will use it as political ammunition, but choose not to spread the practice (claiming they're Communist and therefore aethist).
After all, they've been known to apply different policies to the same issue (e.g. aethist but quite happy to help pick the Panchen Lama; not happy about outside interference into their internal affairs, but quite happy to interfere in other countries)
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However, it does nothing to educate people about Dorje Shugden.
That is not its purpose. This book simply shows that the DL has neither the ecclesiastical nor moral authority to ban Dorje Shugden practice. It's really quite simple: monks and nuns should not hold political office.
Besides, what you're looking for in that respect is already available:
(a) Heart Jewel by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso,
(b) Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors by Trijang Rinpoche, and
(c) http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org (http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org) by Trinlay Kalsang
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Yet, the Dalai Lama calls Dorje Shugden (and his followers) a fake, has no strong arguments against the practice (and doesn't entertain counterarguments against him), and calls Dorje Shugden (and his followers) sectarians who wish to gain power.
Isn't that how the Dalai Lama is keeping the controversy alive from his side?
do you have an exact quote? This quote is completely new to me. DL only said do not practice and nothing much re this issue and as we all know statements on websites or whatnot may not be DL's personal statements and is added there by his assistants etc who may do so with their own agendas.
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do you have an exact quote? This quote is completely new to me. DL only said do not practice and nothing much re this issue and as we all know statements on websites or whatnot may not be DL's personal statements and is added there by his assistants etc who may do so with their own agendas.
The Dalai Lama is expert at getting people to do his dirty work for him so he can maintain his reputation as the peace loving 'simple monk' and Nobel Prize Laureate. It's all a sham, he's waging war through others.
You can tell yourself that the 'wanted' posters in Dharamsala inciting violence towards Shugden practitioners have nothing to do with the Dalai Lama and that he doesn't know about them. 'I think rumour', as he said when directly confronted with these revelations by a Swiss reporter many years ago. The Dalai Lama had the arrogance to deny what the reporter had seen with his own eyes.
You can tell yourself he had nothing do with government reforms to stop Shugden practitioners from holding office, you can tell yourself that he had nothing to do with ostracising Shugden practitioners so that they cannot enter certain shops, travel, talk to their families or get medical treatment.
None of these things have anything to do with the Dalai Lama, even though they are happening under his nose and he's the head of the Tibetan Government in Exile. He doesn't know about them, right? He's surrounded by corrupt ministers with their own agendas?
The truth is nothing happens without his agreement and no one ever goes against his decisions if they want to remain loyal Tibetans and not be accused of being Chinese spies. The Dalai Lama maintains a suitable detachment so that he can claim he doesn't know things, so that he can't be held responsible. His ministers try to keep him off the front line but make no mistake that every negative word said against Shugden practitioners on any website on the internet has his wishes at their root. He makes the bullets and others fire them. All the negative perceptions go back to the 1997 Newsweek article where the Dalai Lama and Thurman planted the seeds that reliance on Shugden was a cult.
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1a) The Dalai Lama calls Dorje Shugden a fake (i.e., a false reincarnation):
Then, because of Ahgyal’s skilful manipulation Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen came to be known as the reincarnation of Gelek Palsang. However, this text states that he was indeed a mistaken and false reincarnation. When the text says “he was successful” it means that even though he was the false reincarnation, he succeeded in maintaining his position as the real incarnation.
[url]http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness/dharamsala-teaching[/url] ([url]http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness/dharamsala-teaching[/url])
1b) The Dalai Lama calls Dorje Shugden practitioners fake (i.e., no longer Buddhists):
A second point is that any clamping down on the worship of Dholgyal does not amount to any form of restriction of freedom to practise Buddha-Dharma. What we are talking about here is the propitiation of a spirit. It is a misuse of the term "Buddha-Dharma" to refer to such a thing in this way. Even if we were to take a very liberal interpretation of the term "Dharma', and include such things as propitiation of spirits and nagas, this still would not qualify. Even in those terms, this tradition is a perverse one.
This is not an authentic tradition, but a mistaken one. It is leading people astray. As Buddhists, who take ultimate refuge in the three jewels, we are not permitted to take refuge in worldly deities. If one were to decide to enlist the help of a worldly spirit - that is to say, to get such a spirit to assist us on a temporal level, to succeed in short-term affairs - then the spirit that is called upon should be an approved one. It should be one that was brought into service by a realised being who has gone through the process of ordering and assigning. It should certainly not be one that is so controversial and has come to prominence through intimidation. This is not an immoral practice. If one reflects on all of these things, one will come to see that what we have here is not a question of freedom to practise Buddha-Dharma.
[url]http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness/gelug-conference[/url] ([url]http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness/gelug-conference[/url])
2a) The Dalai Lama has no strong arguments against the practice (and doesn't entertain counterarguments against him). Instead, all you get is emotional blackmail:
One of the first public manifestations of the Dalai Lama’s state of mind was his refusal, after the Tibetan New Year of 1976, of the long life offerings made by the Tibetan government. Traditionally, the Dalai Lama accepts such an offering after the New Year as a sign of the pure bond (dam tshig tshang ma) that exists between him and Tibetans: this bond is based on his commitment to continue his work as Dalai Lama and the Tibetans’ allegiance. His refusal signaled in effect that he thought that the bond had been undermined and that the behavior of Tibetans was incompatible with his remaining as Dalai Lama. When pressed by the National Assembly to accept the offerings, the Dalai Lama sent back even stronger signals, mentioning dreams in which dakinis had entreated him to return to the pure realms. The refusal of the offerings of long life was already bad enough. The mention of these dreams was akin to a declaration of intention to abandon this world and his role therein. This sent the Tibetan community into a veritable ritual frenzy.
[url]http://vajrayogini.com/option,com_docman/task,doc_view/gid,159/Itemid,48/[/url][/url]
2b) And this emotional blackmail continues to the present day... The emboldened part is for those who still believe in the "bigger picture":
I am determined to implement the conclusions of my careful research and will not let it be. In the great monastic universities - Drepung, Sera and Ganden, the majority are faultless. However, it is clear that a tiny number among them are stubborn. Even private individuals may later have cause for regret if you take this lightly now in the hope that perhaps things will turn out all right after all.... You should not think that dangers to my life come only from someone armed with a knife, a gun, or a bomb. Such an event is extremely unlikely. But dangers to my life may arise if my advice is constantly spurned, causing me to feel discouraged and to see no further purpose in living.
[url]http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/kashags-statement[/url] ([url]http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/kashags-statement[/url])
It is good that paying attention to my health you have passed a resolution regarding this matter. Danger to health does not exclusively mean an armed attack. This type is extremely rare in Tibetan society. If there is continued indifference to my injunctions, then there would not be any point in my continuing to live silently as a disappointed man. This would be a more apt interpretation. (Quoted in Prisoners of Shangri-La, p. 192)
3a) The Dalai Lama calls Dorje Shugden sectarian:
Historical investigation reveals that Dolgyal practice, which has strong sectarian overtones, has a history of contributing to a climate of sectarian disharmony in various parts of Tibet, and between various Tibetan communities....
Given the acknowledged link between Dolgyal worship and sectarianism, this particular practice remains a fundamental obstacle to fostering a genuine non-sectarian spirit within the Tibetan Buddhist tradition.
[url]http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/his-holiness-advice[/url] ([url]http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/his-holiness-advice[/url])
3b) The Dalai Lama calls Dorje Shugden practitioners sectarian:
Whoever fights against the Shugden spirit defends religious freedom. I compare this definitely to the Nazis in Germany. Whoever fights them, defends human rights, since the freedom of Nazis is not freedom.
[url]http://www.dharmaprotector.org/middle-way.html[/url] ([url]http://www.dharmaprotector.org/middle-way.html[/url])
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do you have an exact quote? This quote is completely new to me. DL only said do not practice and nothing much re this issue and as we all know statements on websites or whatnot may not be DL's personal statements and is added there by his assistants etc who may do so with their own agendas.
The Dalai Lama is expert at getting people to do his dirty work for him so he can maintain his reputation as the peace loving 'simple monk' and Nobel Prize Laureate. It's all a sham, he's waging war through others.
You can tell yourself that the 'wanted' posters in Dharamsala inciting violence towards Shugden practitioners have nothing to do with the Dalai Lama and that he doesn't know about them. 'I think rumour', as he said when directly confronted with these revelations by a Swiss reporter many years ago. The Dalai Lama had the arrogance to deny what the reporter had seen with his own eyes.
You can tell yourself he had nothing do with government reforms to stop Shugden practitioners from holding office, you can tell yourself that he had nothing to do with ostracising Shugden practitioners so that they cannot enter certain shops, travel, talk to their families or get medical treatment.
None of these things have anything to do with the Dalai Lama, even though they are happening under his nose and he's the head of the Tibetan Government in Exile. He doesn't know about them, right? He's surrounded by corrupt ministers with their own agendas?
The truth is nothing happens without his agreement and no one ever goes against his decisions if they want to remain loyal Tibetans and not be accused of being Chinese spies. The Dalai Lama maintains a suitable detachment so that he can claim he doesn't know things, so that he can't be held responsible. His ministers try to keep him off the front line but make no mistake that every negative word said against Shugden practitioners on any website on the internet has his wishes at their root. He makes the bullets and others fire them. All the negative perceptions go back to the 1997 Newsweek article where the Dalai Lama and Thurman planted the seeds that reliance on Shugden was a cult.
well if DL was directly involved and other than promoting awareness of such events that took place, i dont feel that its going to shake off the horrible accusations done against Shudgen practitioners. If we fight violently its just going to look like we're exactly as they say.
There's a reason why Shudgen practitioners's society in Dharamsala isnt trying to blow up DL, TGIE and other anti Shudgen things: its because they know it will not help.
the way emptymountains list the facts is a lot more interesting and helpful to help resolve this issue long term.
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well if DL was directly involved and other than promoting awareness of such events that took place, i dont feel that its going to shake off the horrible accusations done against Shudgen practitioners. If we fight violently its just going to look like we're exactly as they say.
There's a reason why Shudgen practitioners's society in Dharamsala isnt trying to blow up DL, TGIE and other anti Shudgen things: its because they know it will not help.
the way emptymountains list the facts is a lot more interesting and helpful to help resolve this issue long term.
I agree that emptymountain's quotes are more helpful, definitely, but you've gone to an extreme. No one wants to blow up the Dalai Lama because such an action would be against our refuge commitments and also we don't hate the Dalai Lama. No Shugden practitioner would want to do this. I feel sorry that the Dalai Lama has 'lost it' but let's not allow that to blind us to how damaging and hypocritical his actions are.
Why you equate my strong speech with blowing up the Dalai Lama is beyond me! It seems, as crazy cloud said in another thread, you are unable to distinguish between strong speech and hatred. All I'm doing is trying to show you the facts about the Dalai Lama, what he's really like.
All I'm offering is the truth, a truth without fighting or violence.
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well if DL was directly involved and other than promoting awareness of such events that took place, i dont feel that its going to shake off the horrible accusations done against Shudgen practitioners. If we fight violently its just going to look like we're exactly as they say.
There's a reason why Shudgen practitioners's society in Dharamsala isnt trying to blow up DL, TGIE and other anti Shudgen things: its because they know it will not help.
the way emptymountains list the facts is a lot more interesting and helpful to help resolve this issue long term.
I agree that emptymountain's quotes are more helpful, definitely, but you've gone to an extreme. No one wants to blow up the Dalai Lama because such an action would be against our refuge commitments and also we don't hate the Dalai Lama. No Shugden practitioner would want to do this. I feel sorry that the Dalai Lama has 'lost it' but let's not allow that to blind us to how damaging and hypocritical his actions are.
Why you equate my strong speech with blowing up the Dalai Lama is beyond me! It seems, as crazy cloud said in another thread, you are unable to distinguish between strong speech and hatred. All I'm doing is trying to show you the facts about the Dalai Lama, what he's really like.
All I'm offering is the truth, a truth without fighting or violence.
then list the facts minus the emotions or anything unnecessary....because its easier to misquote statements made out of emotion or that contain elaborations than cold hard facts.
i mean if there's no strong negative feelings against DL wouldnt it be sufficient to just quote the way emptymountian did to illustrate the point?
At our situation, its best to not let any room for people to bombard us further. A lot of postings here can be easily taken out of context and used against us. What if someone who wants to defame Shudgen practitioners further quote some posts here out of context and publish it in Tricycle or something that we really do want to bring down DL? If we're posting cold hard facts, that cant be disputed but if we add in our own opinions without quoting like "DL should step down" or something its gonna mean trouble later.
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the way emptymountains list the facts is a lot more interesting and helpful to help resolve this issue long term.
The problem is, the list keeps getting longer and longer and longer... Listing the growth rates of a virus does not stop the virus from growing.
If we're posting cold hard facts, that cant be disputed but if we add in our own opinions without quoting like "DL should step down" or something its gonna mean trouble later.
If the DL is an ordained person, he should step down as a political ruler in the worldly sphere. That's not my opinion, that's Buddha's! Can you quote some cold hard facts that state otherwise?
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No true blue Dorje Shugden practitioner who follows Lam Rim would ever want to 'blow up' the Dalai Lama. That is against all principles that Dorje Shugden stands for.
I certainly would never wish that to happen. And the hundreds of ppl I have spoken to that practices Dorje Shugden never ever wishes that either. Never.
There are bad Buddhists and good Buddhists. But they do not reflect eachother's views just because both are labelled Buddhists.
TK
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the way emptymountains list the facts is a lot more interesting and helpful to help resolve this issue long term.
The problem is, the list keeps getting longer and longer and longer... Listing the growth rates of a virus does not stop the virus from growing.
If we're posting cold hard facts, that cant be disputed but if we add in our own opinions without quoting like "DL should step down" or something its gonna mean trouble later.
If the DL is an ordained person, he should step down as a political ruler in the worldly sphere. That's not my opinion, that's Buddha's! Can you quote some cold hard facts that state otherwise?
not necessarily because it can be easily countered by "if DL was wrong in assuming political power other highly enlightened beings would have stopped him, or else those beings would have contradicted their vows".
just post the facts. dont mix in personal opinions for reasons aforementioned.
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not necessarily because it can be easily countered by "if DL was wrong in assuming political power other highly enlightened beings would have stopped him, or else those beings would have contradicted their vows".
Just as highly enlightened beings have always stopped Lamas from gettin' worldly?
I respect the Dalai Lama as I respect all sangha from all lineages because of what they represent.
Your personal example proves one of the WSS's major observations:
The Fourteenth Dalai Lama moves with impunity through his many roles as politician and religious leader. When he does something wrong as a politician, he is excused as a religious leader; and when he does something wrong as a religious leader, he is excused as needing to act as a politician. It seems that no one can 'pin him down'; no one can blame him for anything and he is able to get away with whatever he likes.
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not necessarily because it can be easily countered by "if DL was wrong in assuming political power other highly enlightened beings would have stopped him, or else those beings would have contradicted their vows".
Just as highly enlightened beings have always stopped Lamas from gettin' worldly?
This raises a very important point. Ensapa seems to be making a case for a 'hand of God' situation where the Buddhas would simply stop the Dalai Lama if he was really harmful. Emptymountains retorts that other Lamas have exhibited worldly and deluded actions in the past and nothing appears to have been done by the Buddhas to stop them.
I think it's very dangerous to assume that the Buddhas can just stop the Dalai Lama if he's doing wrong, and since he's allowed to 'get away with' banning Dorje Shugden it's a pure action intended to flourish the practice. The present situation between the DL and Shugden practitioners is our karma. Buddhas cannot transcend our karma for us - it's said in the scriptures that it is possible to purify negative actions before they ripen, but if they ripen, we have no choice but to accept suffering. An example in Joyful Path is of a practitioner of Yamantaka tantra who lacked great compassion and so he used wrathful mantras to kill people. This was a tantric practitioner. The story ends with the practitioner taking lower rebirth as a hungry spirit due to his negative actions and as Geshe Kelsang says
"Since his negative karma ripened in that way, even the powerful Yamantaka could not help him"
Is this saying that Buddhas are powerless when negative karma ripens? As Je Tsongkhapa says in Three Principal Aspects of the Path we are
...tightly bound by the chains of karma, so hard to release...
Buddhas cannot transcend our karma, so why is it not possible for the Dalai Lama to be a worldly politician wearing the robes of a monk and using the Dharma for his own purposes? It's funny that many critics of the NKT accuse Geshe-la's previous successors of wearing the robes of a monk whilst being degenerate and worldly but they never conceive that the Dalai Lama could be. What if he is? It's not impossible.
The Buddhas can't just stop him like causing him to be stuck by lightning or something! The Buddhas need us and they are through the actions of the WSS guiding us to stop the Dalai Lama, but no 'hand of God' is going to descend and make everything alright. If that were possible, they would have done it by now but as the story from Joyful Path illustrates, dependent relationship doesn't work like that.
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Could you please watch your speech?
Anybody is free to have illusions about the Dalai Lama that suit their minds, but this is not an illusion, these are words that could be used in a Court of Law in India against our people.
In case you didn´t know it, it already happened. Our monks were falsely accused by the Dalai Lama and his people of murder, and he and his academic accomplices continue to do so until today. It´s written everywhere and they never retracted their calumny.
So don´t have any doubt, if they find your words they would use them.
It would be very appropriate if you would be so kind as to erase them, at least from this Forum. Thank you.
I doubt my words could be used as evidence...who am I to them?
But no problem I'll erase them - I see a point to what you said - but there is a reason why I included the word 'mistakenly'.
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Buddhas cannot transcend our karma, so why is it not possible for the Dalai Lama to be a worldly politician wearing the robes of a monk and using the Dharma for his own purposes? It's funny that many critics of the NKT accuse Geshe-la's previous successors of wearing the robes of a monk whilst being degenerate and worldly but they never conceive that the Dalai Lama could be. What if he is? It's not impossible.
The Buddhas can't just stop him like causing him to be stuck by lightning or something! The Buddhas need us and they are through the actions of the WSS guiding us to stop the Dalai Lama, but no 'hand of God' is going to descend and make everything alright. If that were possible, they would have done it by now but as the story from Joyful Path illustrates, dependent relationship doesn't work like that.
I'll remember your response for the next time NKT detractors argue that Geshe-la is not a real monk, it's a very valid point. And you're right, it's not impossible that the Dalai Lama could be engaging in worldly activities whilst wearing robes.
However, it's equally possible that both Geshe-la and the Dalai Lama are engaging in what only seem to be worldly activities, but with good motivations. Since we can't judge their motivations, how can we judge the long-term results of their actions?
I don't think it's entirely right to say the Buddhas need us, I think it's more a case of us really needing them. Why would enlightened beings need us? That and saying that they are, through the actions of the WSS, guiding us to stop the Dalai Lama makes it sound like the 'hand of God' is at work...I know you didn't mean it that way, but it does sound like you're agreeing with Ensapa's POV.
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"I doubt my words could be used as evidence...who am I to them?", THE ENEMY!
Believe it or not, the kasag read this site and feeds infromation and comments for Sam Dung to use in his speeches.
LOL fair enough, point taken :)
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not necessarily because it can be easily countered by "if DL was wrong in assuming political power other highly enlightened beings would have stopped him, or else those beings would have contradicted their vows".
Just as highly enlightened beings have always stopped Lamas from gettin' worldly?
This raises a very important point. Ensapa seems to be making a case for a 'hand of God' situation where the Buddhas would simply stop the Dalai Lama if he was really harmful. Emptymountains retorts that other Lamas have exhibited worldly and deluded actions in the past and nothing appears to have been done by the Buddhas to stop them.
I think it's very dangerous to assume that the Buddhas can just stop the Dalai Lama if he's doing wrong, and since he's allowed to 'get away with' banning Dorje Shugden it's a pure action intended to flourish the practice. The present situation between the DL and Shugden practitioners is our karma. Buddhas cannot transcend our karma for us - it's said in the scriptures that it is possible to purify negative actions before they ripen, but if they ripen, we have no choice but to accept suffering. An example in Joyful Path is of a practitioner of Yamantaka tantra who lacked great compassion and so he used wrathful mantras to kill people. This was a tantric practitioner. The story ends with the practitioner taking lower rebirth as a hungry spirit due to his negative actions and as Geshe Kelsang says
"Since his negative karma ripened in that way, even the powerful Yamantaka could not help him"
Is this saying that Buddhas are powerless when negative karma ripens? As Je Tsongkhapa says in Three Principal Aspects of the Path we are
...tightly bound by the chains of karma, so hard to release...
Buddhas cannot transcend our karma, so why is it not possible for the Dalai Lama to be a worldly politician wearing the robes of a monk and using the Dharma for his own purposes? It's funny that many critics of the NKT accuse Geshe-la's previous successors of wearing the robes of a monk whilst being degenerate and worldly but they never conceive that the Dalai Lama could be. What if he is? It's not impossible.
The Buddhas can't just stop him like causing him to be stuck by lightning or something! The Buddhas need us and they are through the actions of the WSS guiding us to stop the Dalai Lama, but no 'hand of God' is going to descend and make everything alright. If that were possible, they would have done it by now but as the story from Joyful Path illustrates, dependent relationship doesn't work like that.
in that case, where is the basis of our faith in our Protector? has he not forcibly stopped the Dharma from degenerating several times as documented by the Music Delighting the ocean of protectors? Because if what you said is true, then those accounts in the text would have been fabricated completely since he's not supposed to help out in those situations.
my other question is, how much does WSS know or is in contact with Shudgen himself? Do they request audience with him and accept his advice? I know for sure the Shudgen community in Dharamsala still requests his advice, as with those in taiwan and other places...
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Dear TK, Sorry for answering here your last message addressed to me, I don´t even know where to find it since the rythm of posts has been so intense in the last hours.
Just to tell you that of course I would like to share with you a cup of tea and have a good laugh. I thank you for your sympathy, but when I spoke of shame I didn´t mean that I suffered any personal shame myself, on the contrary, I´ve always felt very happy and saintly "proud" of belonging to this holy lineage; rather that one experiences a type of shame for the person who does something wrong, particularly if one has to speak about it.
I realize that I don´t have a relaxed attitude when I see Dharma being destroyed. And for me there's no way to help in any way anybody who is destroying Dharma, let alone finding justifications that make things worse, confusing innocent people about the most basic of the Buddha´s actions, which is to show beings what to keep and what to abandon.
No matter what, I do understand the reasons others might have for doing what you and the Noobs are doing: to twist Dharma principles to justify the Dalai Lama´s actions. I understand the reasons, particularly in your case and the case of Tibetans, I understand that you want to preserve the icon of your identity as a nation.
We Westerners have an old way of dealing with these type of things: we distinguish between attacking a tenet, an action, an attitude, and attacking a person. We don´t favor attacking the person, it´s called to go "ad hominem", to go against the human being. But we do retain the right to not agreeing and to attacking the actions. Difficult, but I find it quite wise.
Obviously many people do not act according to this pattern, thus the Noobs preaching against our supposed hatred against the Dalai Lama. Or some people actually expressing hatred against him. For the most part, the people in this website do not hate the Dalai Lama but do not agree with his actions. And his actions entailing the persecution of others, well, we have not only the right but the moral obligation to help the persecuted.
So we find it quite strange that a bunch of self proclaimed practitioners of the Protector come here as a group and try to destroy our actions aimed to protect the victims of the Dalai Lama. We might try to understand their intentions and even accept that they might be good intentions. But we disagree with their purpose.
This having been said, it´s clear that there is no debate possible. I don´t see in the new people (I think Noobs is short for newbies) the slightest intention of having a debate. A debate follows the path of reasoning. They are following, according to what Ensapa said, the instructions of a Lama. The path of faith in this case seems to preclude reasoning. So there is no way we can debate.
I have great appreciation for your kindness, TK. Thank you.
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Dear A Friend,
I fold my hands to you and I thank you for your beautiful message which I appreciate and it has touched my heart deeply.
Let me make some things clear to you please:
1. You have every right to be angry with the tenants and policies of the Dalai lama. What happened is very painful and very shocking. It hurts me too. I believe in the prophecy of Trijang Rinpoche that Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are working hand in hand, but that DOES NOT MEAN I DON'T FEEL DISTRESSED, IN PAIN, HAVE ANGUISH, CONFUSED AND FEEL ISOLATED. I know Dorje Shugden is a Bodhisattva and his strength not to retaliate is what shows me who he is. My faith in him grows even more. I feel everything you and everyone else feels because I am just an ordinary person who met the Dharma and trying my best to practice.
2. You have every right to express your views and I do read them and contemplate it very much. I don't think negatively of your views nor feel bad about reading them. I do not judge your views, but take intense interest to learn more.
3. Other ppl on this forum are feeling what you feel is perfectly natural and alright. I pray that this horrible ban can be changed or just disappear. All of you/us do not deserve this.
4. I have no ill feelings towards you and other ppl who express their anger toward Dalai Lama. I understand deeply how you feel. Betrayal.
5.I am not on this forum to in ANY WAY INSULT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. Why? Because we are the same lineage, same practice, same lamas, same protector. I am on your side. I have always been on your side and will remain that way. We have the same purpose.
6. I am not posting things to justify what the Dalai lama is doing. I am offering another view to perhaps help heal the pain, betrayal and disappointment. My posts are not meant to counter you or others who feel like you in any way. I do not wish to further the hurt you, or berate you or put your feelings down. You do not deserve that for all that you have gone through. Dharma is not easy in the world today to practice.
7. Whatever I post is not following the instructions of my lamas, but from my own dedication to my lamas and Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden has helped me so much. I have many stories. It disturbs me deeply when Bodhisattvas like Pabongka, Trijang, Gangchen, Yongyal, Gonsar, Zong, Zemey, Dagom Rinpoches and other great beings are dragged through the dirt. I do not approve of that at all. I will counter that at every stop, but in a way that makes the anti-shugden ppl's minds calm down also in the end or die trying.
8. I will follow all of you in any way except the slander of the Dalai lama. Why? Dorje Shugden in trance through the oracles have advised us not to do so. It is on that reason and that reason alone I will not. I love Dorje Shugden tremendously. I can give my life for him if need be. So I will follow his instructions as long as I breathe. That is my reason and that is ok for me. I do not speak for anyone else because there are many factors involved, I understand.
9. I salute you and the others' strength, tenacity, stability, and perserverance in the Dharma during these difficult times. I fold my hands and bow to you and all of you humbly. Please never stop working, foruming, posting, writing, speaking for the cause of Dorje Shugden. He will prevail by the power of truth, karma and resultant karma in the near future. We will not be like the poor israelites who wandered in the Sinai desert for many more decades after recieving the covenant (ten commandments) from Moses on Mt Sinai.
10. I understand completely that you are distinguishing between attacking a tenant, an action, an attitude and the person. I understand you are attacking the actions. I fully understand and MAY I PLEASE SAY THAT I APPRECIATE THAT VERY VERY VERY MUCH AND THANK YOU AND ALL THE OTHERS. Really thank you.
Please forgive me if I have offended you of which I have no intention to from the beginning. I very much look forward to the forum daily/or as much as possible although I do have a busy schedule, but doing the forum is like doing my sadhanas/commitments daily. I feel something is missing if I don't.
I look forward to meeting all of you on the forum for many years into the future and learn so much from all your posts daily.
I truly feel indebted to all of you to spend so much time for our cause.
A friend, again, I would like to thank you for your beautiful post to me. I understand what you have written and appreciate it. Please keep in mind, whatever I will further write in the future is NEVER TO ATTACK YOU OR ANYONE, PLEASE REMEMBER THAT. It is not to attack your work nor put you or anyone down. I cannot do such a thing. It is beyond me.
I will write in my style for berating of Dorje Shugden to stop with my views and you will write for the same reasons with your views. Both our views are necessary as the audience is vast. Minds are attracted to different styles and approaches. You are not wrong. Your intent is excellent. Your motivation is excellent and your efforts will bear results.
Thank you again, I offer incense, serkym, and a candle to Dorje Shugden for you today. I request Dorje Shugden to bless you further for longer life, further growth and further realizations.
Much sincerity,
Tk
P.S. I will post this at other other threads where we have communicated so you can access it easily.
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I'd like to thank TK for his post, where he expresses eloquently and sincerely.
The points which particularly resonated with me were:
1. We here in this forum are ALL Dorje Shugden practitioners.
2. Everyone has a right to have their point of view and to express it in this and other forums. And should we differ in opinion, it is not meant to put each other down.
3. All of us wish the ban did not exist.
5. Not to criticise HH the Dalai Lama because it is an instruction from Dorje Shugden himself.
And it is not only TK who advocates the latter but in today's posting in the 'guest book section' (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/Guestbook/), one of the senior members of this forum, Thomas David Canada, states:
"There are a number of well worth points in TK's statements.
Tk's attitude of not abandoning Dorje Shugden and not critizising the Dalai Lama is certainly the way to go.
And there defintely is a ‘bigger picture’, whether it was intended by those at the root of the controversy I doubt.
All the (unjust) blame we (Trijang Rinpoche’s followers) presently experience is certainly the result of a collective negative karma of all of us concerned ones.
It is also very true, that Dorje Shugden NEVER says a negative word about the Dalai Lama, but rather admonishes not to loose respect towards him. But of course he also never ‘endorses’ the witch hunt.
It is a well known characteristic of Doje Shugden’s activities, that in course of time he brings even most unfortunate circumstances to finally positive effects for the beings. This is the ‘bigger picture’ the arises out of the situation due to Dorje Shugden’s powerful activities.
When all the criticism started, I also heard Kache Marpo once say that we (our side) would never be able to find the financial resources to propagate the precious name of our protector throughout the world to an extent as it is happening now with the controversy. So he seemed quite happy about the ‘publicity’. Nevertheless he also hinted, that in truly ‘out-of-hand’ circumstances of slander he would sometimes prefer to intervene with his sharp powers, but that Dorje Shugden is always binding him by obliging him to never do any harm to sentient beings."
Thank you TK and Thomas David Canada in particular on such an auspicious day like today, for reaffirming my fervent belief that there is a bigger picture out there and that our enlightened Protector, Dorje Shugden himself, is the grand master of the plan.
For those who have suffered under the ban, my heart goes out to you. Being a non-Tibetan or related to any particular Dharma centre, I have been extremely fortunate to not been personally affected by the ban but from the youtube videos and reports I have read and personal sharings i have heard, I do empathise with you. All I am able to do is to pray that your burdens may be lightened.
I will follow Tk's advice and not judge those whose views differ from mine and I do apologise if I have inadvertently offended anyone in my previous posts. It was not intentional and I shall strive to be more mindful in future. What i am certain of is that most people in this forum writes their posts out of their passion and faith in Dorje Shugden - and that is the same motivation as me. As Tk puts it, we just express it differently and what we express will appeal to different people. And all that we do goes towards the growth of Dorje Shugden's holy practice.
May Dorje Shugden's practice be universally accepted by next Losar!
With much love and peace to all,
Kate
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I'd like to thank TK for his post, where he expresses eloquently and sincerely.
The points which particularly resonated with me were:
1. We here in this forum are ALL Dorje Shugden practitioners.
2. Everyone has a right to have their point of view and to express it in this and other forums. And should we differ in opinion, it is not meant to put each other down.
3. All of us wish the ban did not exist.
5. Not to criticise HH the Dalai Lama because it is an instruction from Dorje Shugden himself.
And it is not only TK who advocates the latter but in today's posting in the 'guest book section' ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/Guestbook/[/url]), one of the senior members of this forum, Thomas David Canada, states:
"There are a number of well worth points in TK's statements.
Tk's attitude of not abandoning Dorje Shugden and not critizising the Dalai Lama is certainly the way to go.
And there defintely is a ‘bigger picture’, whether it was intended by those at the root of the controversy I doubt.
All the (unjust) blame we (Trijang Rinpoche’s followers) presently experience is certainly the result of a collective negative karma of all of us concerned ones.
It is also very true, that Dorje Shugden NEVER says a negative word about the Dalai Lama, but rather admonishes not to loose respect towards him. But of course he also never ‘endorses’ the witch hunt.
It is a well known characteristic of Doje Shugden’s activities, that in course of time he brings even most unfortunate circumstances to finally positive effects for the beings. This is the ‘bigger picture’ the arises out of the situation due to Dorje Shugden’s powerful activities.
When all the criticism started, I also heard Kache Marpo once say that we (our side) would never be able to find the financial resources to propagate the precious name of our protector throughout the world to an extent as it is happening now with the controversy. So he seemed quite happy about the ‘publicity’. Nevertheless he also hinted, that in truly ‘out-of-hand’ circumstances of slander he would sometimes prefer to intervene with his sharp powers, but that Dorje Shugden is always binding him by obliging him to never do any harm to sentient beings."
I agree with you Kate, and I too would like to thank TK and Thomas David Canada for sharing these information, albeit a bit “mystical” to those who don’t believe, but has made me believe that Dalai Lama, despite what “harm” he is creating, Dorje Shugden’s practise will not be wiped out and will become stronger, just as the old prophecies that DS will replace Nechung.
I too hope the ban will be lifted or fade away with time so that the suffering of those who practice and had to ‘hide’ or be ostracised can feel relief.
I CHOOSE to see that all these sufferings are not “unnecessary”. You may not agree, but we do not know what are the effects, especially in the long run of this so called “ban”. They can’t enforce it outside the Tibetan community. And they can’t stop people from practising.