dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: christine V on June 09, 2013, 03:04:47 PM
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Come across this short and good vidoe on You Tube. Title: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly Faces of the Dorje Shugden Controversy
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly Faces of the Dorje Shugden Controversy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLHkU3HcRm8#)
This video is short and yet precisely stated out the Good and the Bad on Dorje Shugden's controversy. One of the point- The ban cause disharmonious in Buddhist World, which is very true.
We always promote Free Religion and project to the world that we Buddhist are harmonious. With this banned, I think this is a slapped in all the Buddhist face. The CTA is doing an action which telling the world openly that Buddhist is not that harmonious, and, if the "prayer" is not going accordingly to their favor, they will try anything to stopped which included using violence.
I urge that this banned lifted quickly and the harmonious on Buddhist world to be restored fast.
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The ban itself goes against logic and the Buddha's teachings. The Buddha never banned any practice at all when he was alive, neither did he advocated hardline methods to prevent someone from practicing what they like even though he had great influence over the kings. But lets just look at the positives: the ban has created the perfect conditions for Dorje Shugden practitioners to further their Dharma practice and mental training at the same time and they will get stronger and stronger compared to the CTA in the near future.
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@ChristineV, not only this ban creates disharmonious in the Buddhist world, it has created a lot of confusion among the practitioners. In Tibetan Buddhism lineage, guru is the one who give us Dharma, and once we accept him as our Guru, we go all the way with him. Then how can HH Dalai Lama discard his guru? This sent a very strong message to the Buddhism community that you can "dump" a guru.. :(
Lift the ban!!
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Very true kris, how can HHDL discard his guru? How could his Guru such as Trijang Ripoche, Zong Rinpoche are wrong? (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/four-important-videos/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/four-important-videos/))
Besides, due to the ban, the monks and practitioners of Dorje Shugden are being harm, denied from the basic necessity and medical benefits and even from voting. This has caused a lot of dissension, schism and disharmony within Tibetan even in the Tibetan Sangha community. In Buddhism, creating schism within the Sangha community is one of the heinous crimes (anantarika-karma / pañc?nantarya) that will bring one to hell definitely and immediately.
I really hope CTA will realize how wrong and how heavy the bad karma is by enforcing the ban especially on the karmic effect. Please lift the ban soonest and not creating more bad karma that will definitely cause to be reborn in the hell!
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The Dalai Lama's example of denouncing his Guru in the light of the Dorje Shugden ban has also created an example of people who left their Dorje Shugden Gurus or even oust their Dorje Shugden vajra dharma brothers and sisters, like what happened with FPMT during the ban. In other words, the ban has caused a lot of broken samaya, and even if the Dalai Lama says to do it in his name, do we really hate the Dalai Lama that much to pile on all the negative karma of broken samaya on him, or can we carry out the ban in a more level headed manner? but the thing is, they already did something that will bring upon their own spiritual downfall and it was due to the Dorje Shugden ban.
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Time and resources were expended to enforce the ban and to publicly denounce the practice of Dorje Shugden. These could and should have been wisely used to benefit the people through better education system, better infra structure, job and business opportunities, etc and not to mention dharma advancement. Dharamsala needed all these yet the people in CTA thought otherwise and put their energy into making the lives of the people miserable by enforcing the ban and in doing so depriving the people of above said. Bring the ban down! It's enough already.
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Time and resources were expended to enforce the ban and to publicly denounce the practice of Dorje Shugden. These could and should have been wisely used to benefit the people through better education system, better infra structure, job and business opportunities, etc and not to mention dharma advancement. Dharamsala needed all these yet the people in CTA thought otherwise and put their energy into making the lives of the people miserable by enforcing the ban and in doing so depriving the people of above said. Bring the ban down! It's enough already.
personally, i can never understand why would the CTA believe in the Dorje Shugden ban more than developing Dharamsala? It doesnt really make sense to promote a ban that may or may not be true rather than to develop Dharamsala and know for sure that it will benefit the people there. Isnt this like the 1950s all over again where they trusted "nechung's" prediction where they will win the war against the british with just daggers and amulets while the British were using guns? Blind faith without any reasoning or logic isnt a good attitude to carry on and they should always think every decision throughly and the pros and cons, like every real government should.
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I agree with Ensapa, I feel that the CTA should have made the development of Dharmasala the priority instead of putting the ban in such high position.
I feel that with this ban and the focus on the ban, it will not benefit the Tibetans at all. So far what we have seen is that the ban has caused so much schism between the Sanghas and Dharma practitioners. If the CTA could just give the same amount they give to the ban towards the development of Dharmasala, and getting back their land. They would have succeeded.
Just imagine the amount of bad karma that is being generated here. If they could have just let go of the ban, not making it the focus, they would definitely succeed in bonding the Tibetans, and spreading their religion even further and better.
Personally, I just feel that it is such a waste that they have concentrated and put all their effort on a cause that would not have benefited themselves.
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I agree with Ensapa, I feel that the CTA should have made the development of Dharmasala the priority instead of putting the ban in such high position.
I feel that with this ban and the focus on the ban, it will not benefit the Tibetans at all. So far what we have seen is that the ban has caused so much schism between the Sanghas and Dharma practitioners. If the CTA could just give the same amount they give to the ban towards the development of Dharmasala, and getting back their land. They would have succeeded.
Just imagine the amount of bad karma that is being generated here. If they could have just let go of the ban, not making it the focus, they would definitely succeed in bonding the Tibetans, and spreading their religion even further and better.
Personally, I just feel that it is such a waste that they have concentrated and put all their effort on a cause that would not have benefited themselves.
It's not the bad karma alone that is generated from the Dorje Shugden ban, but also the amount of wasted resources , time and money that has been allocated to the ban itself which could have been used to develop Dharamsala and improve living conditions, or even help to fund monasteries and generate merit for the CTA. Because of the ban, much time is wasted as monasteries have to organize and send out troupes of monks to other countries to help raise funds for the monasteries, and this is very disruptive to their studies. In short, the ban is also detrimental to the studies of the monks in the monasteries as well.
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A good effect of the ban is that great Shugden Lamas and Yeshes are spreading the Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa's Lineage far and wide beyond India, the country where most Tibetan refugees had originally settled(and where HH Dalai Lama and CTA are based) . The ban had forced these Lamas and Geshes to leave India and go to the countries which are beyond the long vindictive 'arm' of the CTA. Furthermore, in Tibet, with support from the Chinese Government, the Shugden Lamas and Geshes, who had not left, are now also rigorously spreading the Dharma. Hence the 2600 year teachings of Buddha Shakyamuni , continues in an unbroken Lineage to this day.
Dorje Shugden, the Protector who has unrelentingly promoted Manjushri Je Tsonghapa's lineage of teachings and practice, is himself recognized as an emanation of Wisdom Buddha Manjushri. Thus, this supramundane Protector, in oracles, has also given teachings on the Correct View of Emptiness.It was for this main reason that he arose as a Protector - to protect the teachings of Je Tsongkhpa , in particular, His unexcelled expounding of Narguna's Correct View of Emptiness. Thus the enlightened activities of Buddha Manjushri continues on in Wisdom Protector Dorje Shugden
The sad part of the ban is that a schism has been created between Dorje Shugden practitioners and anti -Shugden pro-Dalai Lama factions. Schism within the Sangha is one of the five most heinous transgressions a Buddhist can commit. Schism is against the grain of what Lord Buddha practiced and taught. Harmony is a pillar of Buddhism. Furthermore, violence and ostracism is being meted out to Shugden practitioners , who are practicing Shugden mainly because it was a practice that their Gurus had conferred on them and because they are following their Guru's instructions, which is the main expression of Guru Devotion. Ostensibly, HH Dalai Lama in giving up and condemning the Shugden practice himself and enforcing a ban on it, is breaking his samaya with his Guru, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, who had given him this practice. The result is disharmony, schism, confusion and violence among Buddhists, in place of peace and harmony, which Lord Buddha had always strongly advocated.
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I think the pros and cons of the ban been rehashed over and over again on this website over the years so I think it is now time to look forward. Does this ban need to go on indefinitely? I am sure everyone, including the pro-Dalai Lama camp would think that this ban has brought a lot of damages and loss of reputation for everyone involved. Whatever were the sacred reasons for the ban, it is up to speculation but now, how do we move forward from here? How do we abolish this ban?
Knowing the pros and cons, how do impress this upon the CTA to abolish this ban? What would be the best interest of the Tibetan people? To have a divided society on the grounds of the Protector they worship or not... or a all-inclusive society with implementation of laws and regulations that respect the people's right to practice the protector they choose. Perhaps, just enforce restrictions on proselytizing of this protector but ultimately allow the people to practice as they see fit. Whatever direction, it should be implemented in the best interest of the people. After all, the Dalai Lama has chosen not to speak about this Protector and I think it means that he has given the reins of power to the people.
I hope CTA realizes this and act upon it before its too late. Eventually, apathy of the CTA towards the plight of the Dorje Shugden practitioners would be its undoing. That's how I see it.
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I think the pros and cons of the ban been rehashed over and over again on this website over the years so I think it is now time to look forward. Does this ban need to go on indefinitely? I am sure everyone, including the pro-Dalai Lama camp would think that this ban has brought a lot of damages and loss of reputation for everyone involved. Whatever were the sacred reasons for the ban, it is up to speculation but now, how do we move forward from here? How do we abolish this ban?
Knowing the pros and cons, how do impress this upon the CTA to abolish this ban? What would be the best interest of the Tibetan people? To have a divided society on the grounds of the Protector they worship or not... or a all-inclusive society with implementation of laws and regulations that respect the people's right to practice the protector they choose. Perhaps, just enforce restrictions on proselytizing of this protector but ultimately allow the people to practice as they see fit. Whatever direction, it should be implemented in the best interest of the people. After all, the Dalai Lama has chosen not to speak about this Protector and I think it means that he has given the reins of power to the people.
I hope CTA realizes this and act upon it before its too late. Eventually, apathy of the CTA towards the plight of the Dorje Shugden practitioners would be its undoing. That's how I see it.
I have a slightly different opinion: the way how CTA handles the Dorje Shugden ban is reflective of how they will handle everything else and the Dorje Shugden ban is a social experiment and to see if they are able to handle such matters well. But of course, from what we can see on their reaction and performance on this issue, they are not handling it well and they are definitely not capable of doing their job and something has to be done. By rehashing the pros and cons, we actually reinforce the idea in the minds of people about the nature of the ban.
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I think the pros and cons of the ban been rehashed over and over again on this website over the years so I think it is now time to look forward. Does this ban need to go on indefinitely? I am sure everyone, including the pro-Dalai Lama camp would think that this ban has brought a lot of damages and loss of reputation for everyone involved. Whatever were the sacred reasons for the ban, it is up to speculation but now, how do we move forward from here? How do we abolish this ban?
Knowing the pros and cons, how do impress this upon the CTA to abolish this ban? What would be the best interest of the Tibetan people? To have a divided society on the grounds of the Protector they worship or not... or a all-inclusive society with implementation of laws and regulations that respect the people's right to practice the protector they choose. Perhaps, just enforce restrictions on proselytizing of this protector but ultimately allow the people to practice as they see fit. Whatever direction, it should be implemented in the best interest of the people. After all, the Dalai Lama has chosen not to speak about this Protector and I think it means that he has given the reins of power to the people.
I hope CTA realizes this and act upon it before its too late. Eventually, apathy of the CTA towards the plight of the Dorje Shugden practitioners would be its undoing. That's how I see it.
I do agreed with what Ensapa said for the ban. It is to reinforce the nature of the ban.
But, I would like to stress that what have Big Uncle said is absolutely the next step to be. The action to lift the ban.
As told by Samayakeeper, this banned do not brought any benefit in terms on the welfare of current Tibetan whom remain as refugees in Indian, but also to the Tibetan in China that are still fighting for freedom. Instead, religion practice should have freedom. And as a Buddhist whom believes in harmonies, this banned is absolutely damage more than build.
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I think the pros and cons of the ban been rehashed over and over again on this website over the years so I think it is now time to look forward. Does this ban need to go on indefinitely? I am sure everyone, including the pro-Dalai Lama camp would think that this ban has brought a lot of damages and loss of reputation for everyone involved. Whatever were the sacred reasons for the ban, it is up to speculation but now, how do we move forward from here? How do we abolish this ban?
Knowing the pros and cons, how do impress this upon the CTA to abolish this ban? What would be the best interest of the Tibetan people? To have a divided society on the grounds of the Protector they worship or not... or a all-inclusive society with implementation of laws and regulations that respect the people's right to practice the protector they choose. Perhaps, just enforce restrictions on proselytizing of this protector but ultimately allow the people to practice as they see fit. Whatever direction, it should be implemented in the best interest of the people. After all, the Dalai Lama has chosen not to speak about this Protector and I think it means that he has given the reins of power to the people.
I hope CTA realizes this and act upon it before its too late. Eventually, apathy of the CTA towards the plight of the Dorje Shugden practitioners would be its undoing. That's how I see it.
I do agreed with what Ensapa said for the ban. It is to reinforce the nature of the ban.
But, I would like to stress that what have Big Uncle said is absolutely the next step to be. The action to lift the ban.
As told by Samayakeeper, this banned do not brought any benefit in terms on the welfare of current Tibetan whom remain as refugees in Indian, but also to the Tibetan in China that are still fighting for freedom. Instead, religion practice should have freedom. And as a Buddhist whom believes in harmonies, this banned is absolutely damage more than build.
There is actually no way that the ban benefits anyone at all. The pro Dalai Lama people will think and say that it prevents people from worshipping an unenlightened deity, but what they do not see is that there is nothing wrong with worshipping Dorje Shugden. Things could have been better without the ban, but nobody would have known what would happen if the ban was not in place, perhaps Tibet would have regained its independence by now? But then it would also mean that China would not have adopted Dorje Shugden or be this tolerant of Buddhism like now.
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Things would definitely be better without the ban on Dorje Shugden. But if it was not for this ban, Dorje Shugden would not be such a hot topic around the world.
When people want to know more about Tibetan Buddhism and Google search it, Dorje Shugden would appear, allowing them to know more and understand. They making their own stand of whether they are for the ban or against it.
With the ban, it has also made Dorje Shugden being brought up at many occasions planting some Dharmic seeds for the viewers and readers about Dorje Shugden even if they are against the practice.
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Things would definitely be better without the ban on Dorje Shugden. But if it was not for this ban, Dorje Shugden would not be such a hot topic around the world.
When people want to know more about Tibetan Buddhism and Google search it, Dorje Shugden would appear, allowing them to know more and understand. They making their own stand of whether they are for the ban or against it.
With the ban, it has also made Dorje Shugden being brought up at many occasions planting some Dharmic seeds for the viewers and readers about Dorje Shugden even if they are against the practice.
Not only that. The Dalai Lama has also opened himself up for criticism as anyone who wants to dig dirt on him would surely talk about Dorje Shugden and how the ban was unjust, as the reasons for it are flimsy and everyone can see that. No matter how 'bad' Dorje Shugden is, there should not be a ban of this magnitude. it does more harm than good to everyone involved. In the end, it is the Dorje Shugden practitioners who benefit the most as the ban accelerates their Dharma practice as it makes them put in more effort in their Dharma practice.
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Not only that. The Dalai Lama has also opened himself up for criticism as anyone who wants to dig dirt on him would surely talk about Dorje Shugden and how the ban was unjust, as the reasons for it are flimsy and everyone can see that. No matter how 'bad' Dorje Shugden is, there should not be a ban of this magnitude. it does more harm than good to everyone involved. In the end, it is the Dorje Shugden practitioners who benefit the most as the ban accelerates their Dharma practice as it makes them put in more effort in their Dharma practice.
The ban of the magnitude of it would be a little extreme, and if there really is, how are we suppose to judge and measure it? Another reason that I think the Dalai Lama did not put a magnitude limit to where the criticisms can reach is because that if that is put in placed by the Dalai Lama, it would not justify to the ban he has put on Dorje Shugden as it does help to cover not allowing the freedom of speech for the critics. By doing this, wouldn't the Dalai Lama mean that the whole ban is a smokescreen for something? (Which we all know that it is a smokescreen now)
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The ban of the magnitude of it would be a little extreme, and if there really is, how are we suppose to judge and measure it? Another reason that I think the Dalai Lama did not put a magnitude limit to where the criticisms can reach is because that if that is put in placed by the Dalai Lama, it would not justify to the ban he has put on Dorje Shugden as it does help to cover not allowing the freedom of speech for the critics. By doing this, wouldn't the Dalai Lama mean that the whole ban is a smokescreen for something? (Which we all know that it is a smokescreen now)
well, the ban could have been carried out in a way where it meets the Dalai Lama's requirements and not go overboard to the point where Dorje Shugden practitioners are violently evicted from their homes and have their properties destroyed, denied medical treatment and are not allowed to purchase goods from the the stores. I do not believe that those steps are necessary at all in any way and that whoever who believes that they are are not even Buddhist to begin with no matter how much they claim to love the Dalai Lama.
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I'm still a newbie and there's much I don't know about but I tend to agree with the viewpoints of Ensapa and Rinchen.
By "banning" Dorje Shugden, H.H. Dalai Lama has propelled Dorje Shugden onto the world stage, especially in China where DS's presence is sorely needed, even if it means HHDL will take on the "ugly" role in front of Buddhists all around the world. Isn't that a move of compassion and selflessness?
As for those who take it upon themselves to do harm to DS practitioners, I greatly doubt that HHDL actually told them explicitly to deliver violence. Everyone has a choice and true dharma practitioners should know better than to interfere with other people's practice. If anyone wants to exercise the ban, they should apply it to themselves, full stop. Which means, this whole "ban" is a perfect exercise to separate those who really practice dharma from those who only desire to politicise dharma.
Then again, these are only the views of a newbie...
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That is precisely the point. It is just pointless to be controlling the extends of the ban because there definitely will be people that will ignore these "rules" that are set. Hence, what for allow the chances for more bad karma to be created when they can stop it? Hence, they do not create any limit then the people will not be able to create more negative karma.