dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: wisdombuddha on May 16, 2008, 02:53:18 PM
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"There will be no change in my stand. I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution. If those who do not accept the ban do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them."
-The Dalai Lama to monks in India who questioned the ban
We may ask, "Why is this religious suppression is taking place?"
It is admittedly hard even for Tibetan Buddhists suffering under this ban to understand the arcane political or religious reasons the Dalai Lama is giving, let alone for Westerners new to the subject to fathom it!
It may be easier to understand that the Dalai Lama must be frustrated after so many years in exile and how little progress he has made in winning even autonomy for Tibet, let alone the independence that so many Tibetans still want. If anything, it seems that Tibet is further away than ever before from its goals. It is perhaps understandable that he therefore wishes to lead or unite all Tibetans in exile; but the world has moved on since he first fled into exile. We would like him to just consider that persecuting his own people as a scapegoat -- causing them incredible sadness, fear and loneliness -- is not going to win the old Tibet back, nor help the unity of the Tibetan people either now or in the future.
Dorje Shugden practitioners are feeling immense sorrow at this time. They have hurt no one. They have done nothing wrong. They are not interested in politics. They are peaceful Buddhist practitioners, lay and ordained, dedicated to helping all living beings find a deep inner peace and happiness. Many have hoped and prayed for years (since the Dalai Lama started speaking out in the 1970s and then issued the ban in the 1990s) that this nightmarish problem of being rejected by their own Dalai Lama will go away, that it is just a bad dream; but it has only worsened such that they now feel obliged to seek help from others, to ask the world to listen.
They have no wish to harm the Dalai Lama at all. All they want is the freedom to continue practicing the compassion, love and wisdom of the Buddhist tradition of Je Tsongkhapa and to rely upon Dorje Shugden as the Wisdom Buddha Protector of that tradition. They want to do this while remaining regular and even valued members of their society, without segregation or persecution.
These thousands of abbots, monks, nuns, lamas, and lay families are just as dedicated to a peaceful and successful future for Tibet as any of their fellow Tibetans. There would be no reason for them to say they were being denied their human rights if it were not happening.
This conflict might at first glance seem like an arcane religious problem but in reality it is a human rights' issue and a case of religious persecution based on a political decision. So far no one has been burnt at stake, but many have been threatened with murder, physically attacked, forced to leave their communities, schools, homes or workplaces, refused entry into shops to buy food, refused identity cards (and the ability to travel freely etc), and so on.
There is no record anywhere of any of them retaliating. They are dedicated to non-violence in the tradition of their teachers. Some are demonstrating in the manner of Martin Luther King to stand up for their rights and freedom and some are trying to instigate court proceedings. They are on the defensive, not the offensive.
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"There will be no change in my stand. I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution. If those who do not accept the ban do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them."
-The Dalai Lama to monks in India who questioned the ban
Hi wisdom, do you have a reference that one can use to validate the legitmacy of this quote? When referencing these quotes it is very helpful if one states where the quote can be documented, otherwise it looks like a fabrication or hearsay.
Thanks!
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http://www.shugdensociety.info/historyEvents1999.html
January 13, 1999
H.H. the Dalai Lama paid visit to Trijang Labrang, the residence of His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche (1900-1981), his tutor. At a gathering of the Labrang's, H.H. the Dalai Lama says: “...during my visit to Switzerland, Lobsang said, the current Choktul Rinpoche be allowed to worship Dorje Shugden like his predecessor, without a decision through the dough ball divination. He also told me that the ban on Shugden worship is causing widespread suffering to everyone, and that it may be revoked. This is ridiculous talk. My reason for banning the Protector is in the interest of Tibetan's politics and religion, as well as for the Gelug tradition. In our face to face meeting, I also told Rinpoche to understand that we may meet each other for the last time. During this private audience with H.H. the Dalai Lama, Ven. Choezed la, the eldest official at Trijang Labrang, mostly humbly pointed out that the religious ban has created an unprecedented atmosphere of hostility against both Shartse monastery and against Trijang Labrang which is not very different from the atmosphere of the Cultural Revolution in Tibet. He requested that, to lift the suffering within the Tibetan public from this atmosphere, he may kindly consider revoking the ban.
To this, H.H. the Dalai Lama angrily said, “there will be no change in my stand. I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution. If they (those who do not accept the ban) do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them.”
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Thanks for this widsom, however, you are simply repeating a claim made on the Dorje Shugden Devotee's Charitable & Religious Society webpage. When speaking to people who don't sympathize with the Shugden cause, this sort of reference is what one could term "self-referential", i.e., there is no independent, non-biased source for the quote.
The DSDCRS doesn't reference their source either, making the claim of the quote open to doubt.
Thanks!
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Yeah, it's well known that every single quote by a journalist has to have at least
an ISBN number from the Library of Congress
and a blessing from the Vatican Office for the Preservation of Faith.
That's how information goes around the world. Anything lacking those requisites nobody believes.
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Thanks, a friend, for the helpful response??????
I'm not trying to be argumentative or disruptive, I am asking because if one is talking to people who might not know much about this situation, the they are going to be asking for some hard evidence, or at least many people will. I find that many people don't just believe something because it is posted on a website. They are going to want some kind of verification of what you are saying, and like it or not, some mainstream, neutral news source will be believed quicker than a website which has a stated agenda.
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This is not the time any more for this discussion, it was in the last month, until yesterday.
Today the demonstrations resumed.
Now it's time to disseminate our information in an intelligent way.
Don't worry about who believes what now, it doesn't obviously follow the rules you mention, nor many others. It's a mundane, deceptive game of mental images. Do you think the Dalai Lama is presenting any hard evidence? Of what?
Forget this, now, and use your excellent brains to go and write letters in the way you see fit, and I'm sure it's going to be very good. Send them now to Germany, later to the rest of the world. That is, if you wish, of course.
If you come up with a letter that satisfies you, then please post it also here, that others might use it or get inspired, because it's not so easy to write letters, and you seem to be a good writer.
:)
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How many scholars do you need to unveil a lie?
I sincerely don't think, Trinley Kelsang, coming to think of it, that right now there is such need of scholarly work to handle this situation.
Do you really think that scholarly work is going to be the antidote for the Dalai Lama's big lie repeated for so many years?
No, because people are blind. His fame, his assumed holiness, make people blind.
What is needed is to restore people's sight.
There is no amount of scholarly work which can restore people's sight.
You need to get to people's heart and intelligence and destroy the bubble of fame and duplicity.
There are ways to get help. Politicians know that, they put their careers in the hands of professionals. I think we should imitate them. This is not a Dharma matter, it's a mundane matter of power and politics. Let's use those who know how to change public opinion.
In the mean time, let's go on disseminating the news about families destroyed, children thrown out of school, humble vendors threatened ... the tragedy of the exiled in exile. Is there any need of scholarly work for that? Let's keep showing the truths we know ... although we are unskilled to present them, they are more than enough to destroy the big lie.
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Dearest, I don't want to distract you from letter-sending.
Just to point out that no significant number, nor even minimal number of people are believing in the "Shugden Affair" because of the biased scholarly job of Dreyfuss.
It's the propaganda machine in mass media that has done the trick.
It's doing it now.
Did you notice the perfect development of his "autonomy vs. independence" trick? Yesterday I saw him embracing a group of tiny kids and the press captioning: Dalai Lama does not want independence from China.
How would this sit with his Tibetans, that, as you know here in this website, even when educated continue to dream about independence? How would the Dalai Lama had been able to state these things openly, publically, repeateadly, as he is doing now, without having set fire to the Tibetan community with the "Shugden cult" and its Chinese ties? He started in January, in Southern India. Don't you see his perfect timing?
This is what is needed, analysis of present-day reality. This is what is needed: to repeat again and again his astute, incredibly well timed actions.
Go and put Tibetans in a state of rage and fury against something (the Shugden).
Then go and proclaim as much as you want what they don't want to know: autonomy.
We, "the Shugden", as he has tagged us, we take the rage that the Tibetans were going to direct at him, that's all. So simple, so invisible.
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TK, I'll quote myself from above:
I sincerely don't think, Trinley Kelsang, coming to think of it, that right now there is such need of scholarly work to handle this situation.
"Right now" means from now to the end of the Olympics. A window of opportunity that won't repeat itself any time soon.
Of course any research can be useful in the long run. Right now we need to break the barrier of blindness, that's not done with scholarly research. We need to get to the media and the public. Now.
Unhappily I don't know what more to do.
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Hi everyone, just a couple of thoughts:
1) I wasn't really asking for scholarly evidence, I was asking for neutral news sources or unbiased transcripts which might validate some of the quotes which are being attributed to the Dalai Lama. But I appreciate all the feedback anyway. Discussion is a good thing.
2) I am not a Shugden practitioner. My Gelug Guru has advised me against the practice. I have investigated his advice and I am satisfied. I have no problem with others who want to continue Shugden practice. It is your right as a human to practice your faith in the way that you choose.
I came to this site to try to understand the Shugden practitioner's point of view better so that dialogue between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners might become more beneficial.
After I posted my first 2 messages, I received this email from Thomas Canada:
--- On Fri, 5/16/08, Thomas Canada <[email protected]> wrote:
> From: Thomas Canada <[email protected]>
> Subject:
> Date: Friday, May 16, 2008, 8:32 PM
> The Dalia lama is a prick, just like his brothers!
> You can quote me!
> I said it.
>
>
> --
> Mr. Thom
This sort of written (verbal) communication seems to go against the very essence of our Buddhist vows. I have not disparaged anyone's Guru. I have not tried to make anyone lose faith in their Guru. Why would Mr. Canada disparage another's Guru and try to make someone lose faith in their Guru?
I understand if you disagree with the Dalai Lama's activities against the Shugden practice and you want to speak out, but I do not understand the insults, name calling, etc.
It doesn't matter if you believe that the "other side" has engaged in the same activities, one must still watch their own activities of body, speech and mind.
I hope there is a peaceful resolution to this conflict (issue).
Best regards,
Pup Clayton
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Clayton,
you seem to be a decent guy. Forgive Thom, he's one more victim of the Dalai Lama.
You are not asked --actually nobody was ever asked-- to become a practitioner of the wrathful emanation of Mañjushri-Yamantaka. This is a Tantric practice that a few lucky ones have implored our Gurus to impart us.
Mostly the traditional Dorje Shugden people in Tibet, Mongolia, Nepal and India were devotees, related to the Deity through their local monastery, through their families, like that. The initiation was something very precious, not given lightly and imparted rarely.
You would die of shock if I told you who among the Western persecutors of the Deity requested this initiation not one but many times to several of our lineage Lamas. Our Lamas, with their divine sight, never gave it to him. At least when he badmouths the Protector and us he is not breaking samaya, except with his own conscience.
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You would be interested in finding out what the Dalai Lama is doing right now, while he preaches religious tolerance to the world. He has parallel activities, don't you think that he is not busy. Go to A request from the Shugden Society. Informative.
Clayton, you should read too the interview to the Phelgyeling monks by Ursula Bernis in 1997. You will find it in today's posts.
There you will learn something that should enlighten you further, since you have the good sense of investigating.
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Are we again speaking of Robert Thurman here!!! ;D
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Dear A Friend,
Thank you for responding to my posting. I try to be balanced in my approach.
I do take exception to 2 things in your reply:
1) During my many years with the NKT, I did not have to implore anyone to learn about and engage in the practice of Shugden. It was recommended that I start the practice practically the moment I walked through the doors. Every student in the NKT is encouraged to participate in prayers which propitiate Shugden - if you aren't familiar with the NKT sadhanas check out Heart Jewel, Wishfulfilling Jewel and Melodious Drum - all Shugden practices which all NKT students are encouraged to participate in. The blessing empowerment of Shugden is offered to the students every year, and all students are encouraged to take the empowerment.
2) As I mentioned in my previous post, it is considered a breach of basic vows to disparage another person's Guru. I find your comments about His Holiness' "secret activities" to be nothing but an attempt to undermine my faith in one of my Gurus. When someone mentions to me a Guru that I disagree with, or I believe to be engaged in "misguided" activities, I keep my mouth shut and tell the person that I am happy that they are receiving so much benefit from their Guru.
I am not interested in trying to turn you away from your Guru and I wish you would respect my devotion to my Guru.
It is one thing to want to be allowed to practice your faith in peace - it is quite another to try to destroy someone else's reputation. And it doesn't matter if you believe that His Holiness has tried to destroy anyone's reputation - just because someone does a bad thing does not make it OK for you to do the same bad thing.
I try so hard to find common ground with the Shugden practitioners, as we are all Buddhist practitioners, but it seems that the discussion always ends up with someone wanting to tear down His Holiness. It makes me wonder: what is the real agenda: religious freedom or destruction of the reputation of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Again, I call for respectful dialogue between all parties, and I pray for a peaceful resolution to this issue,
May everyone be happy,
Best regards,
Pup Clayton
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Kudos for NKT that they are giving so generously the practice of the Protector. I don't know anything about their mores. I only know that I visited them once and I was delighted by their hospitality and the extraordinary beauty of their temple. I definitely know that I revere Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for the extreme clarity and purity of his teachings. I've read most of his books and his is the pure Dharma of Je Tsongkapa. What a flawless diamond Gelugpa.
I am an old person and what I told you about the Protector is the traditional way. No doubt Geshe Kelsang Gyatso opened up the imparting of the Protector's initiation forced by the Dalai Lama's actions. Good for Geshela!
I am at a loss with the "secret activities" part. I never said his activities were secret. You don't send your officials stir up a whole community in secret. The Dalai Lama never hid his actions, how could he? What he does is that he denies them after the fact.
I am very sorry that you think "I" am disparaging your Lama. The Dalai Lama disparages himself with his actions. For years I didn't say anything against him, after the first big battles back in 1996. I even refused to think about the horrible things he's done. What do you know about the innumerable hours I spent in my life crying for what he's done to his Guru, for what he's done to my Guru, for what he's done to Dharma, for what he does to practitioners, but main, for what he is doing to himself? What do you know about my love for him? But he went to Southern India last January and attacked the Sangha. HE FORCED A SCHISM IN THE SANGHA FOR HEAVENS SAKE and you talk to me about a breach of vows?
Clayton please, give me a break!
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The Dalai-Lama is advising all Gelugpas to break their vows and committments and to give up their Lineage Lamas!!!!
I'm glad I never received anything from him.
Remeber, you have to investigate the actions of a guru before choosing to serve him. We don't do that anymore!
We don't really investigate the actions of our gurus, we just buy what the media tell us.
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Dear A Friend,
You are absolutely correct. You did not say "secret activities", the phrase was "parallel activities".
I'm not one to engage in never-ending circular arguments. I believe that we have both stated our positions in regards to His Holiness and on this issue we will just have to agree to disagree.
Yes Alexis, I agree with you that many people don't investigate their Gurus properly before taking samaya with them. I found that to be the case with many NKT students and I think you are absolutely correct that many people accept His Holiness as well without properly investigating.
For myself, I investigated both Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and HHDL and chose to keep a respectful distance from GKG and instead follow HHDL. You may believe that I made a bad choice, but if I understand your group correctly, you believe strongly in freedom of religion.
Dear TrinleyKalsang, thank you so much for your well thought out and reasonable statements in regards to this who situation, even though we have different viewpoints, I have nothing but respect for your position and the manner in which you present your arguments.
I have many Vajra brothers and sisters who are Shugden practitioners. It is so easy for people to fall into an "us vs. them" mentality in situations like this. TrinleyKalsang, your reasonable approach to dialogue elevates the discussion above that.
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Hi people
Just looking at this exchange reminds me of the utter torment I underwent after the DL came out with his ban I had received Highest Yoga Tantra initiations from both DL and Geshe Kelsang. What to do ? Eventually I understood that the DL was not actually a qualified Dharma Teacher never mind Tantric Master. How? Because he broke the basic of all basics - that is his guru reliance on Trijang Dorjechang - he said that those who practice Shugden cannot be his friend. So. Now I have no problem at all in pointing out his faulty words and actions - sometimes quite forcefully - part of the intention here is to help the DL. According to Vinaya a person who causes a schism in the Sangha goes straight to hell - I do not wish that to happen to the DL so he needs to recognise his mistake.
Nelson Mandela said "Everything is impossible - until it happens!" Maybe the Dalai Lama will change his mind....
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I have been talking with a lot of people about this issue: people new to Buddhism, people who identitfy with other traditions, and people like myself who have some experience with this issue. One of the things I keep hearing over and over is that initially people are interested in what the WSS has to say and want to know more about the problems being created for the Shugden pratitioners, but once they visit the WSS site, this site and other similar sites, as well as read that brochure that is being passed around, and they encounter things like: HHDL is evil, he is a "saffron-robed muslim", I hope he goes to hell, etc., etc., etc., they are immediately turned off. They just stop reading.
I just read Mr. basically's post and he proclaims that HHDL is not a qualified Dharma teacher. Whatever.
I know your group wants to reach out to the general public and get them behind your movement.
I personally think you are going to have an uphill battle as long as your message appears to more about destroying the reputation of HHDL than educating people about your reliance on Dorje Shugden and how you believe that you are the victims of religious persecution.
I am sure many of you will disagree with me on that point, but that's just my perspective.
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Hi P C Clayton,
I agree, but I suspect that this
"I do wish that to happen to the DLso he needs to recognise his mistake."
was a typo and should probably have included the word "not".
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Mr Clayton,
For about two months there has been a serious debate about the words you are reffering to about the DL: «evil...saffron robed...», etc, etc.
Many of us on this website completely disagreed with the WDSS about the inclusion of those labels and words in the pamphlets and publications.
We advocated a more factual and historical approach to the problem of the Dalai-Lama's persecution of the ganden lineage. Our voices, however, were never heard by the WDSS.
Please check threads like this one to understand what we are talking about:
http://dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=295.0
There are many of us here and as you might have noticed, we do not speak (or write!) with one voice.
If you care to dig in the previous pages of the forum, you will find many threads about that debate.
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Thank you indolent1 for pointing out my typo! There is no way I wish for anyone to suffer the fires of hell....
Apologies to pclayton if you misunderstood due that typo...You say "Whatever" dismissively regarding my view of the qualifications of the DL as a teacher but honestly how could it be any other way?! He plainly chucked out the kindnesses of Trijang Dorjechang.....he is not even qualified to teach the first meditation in the Lamrim never mind Tantric initiations etc.
Today we of the Western Shugden Society had a great day in London trying to reach the ears of the Dalai Lama with our demands for religious freedom. We chanted at Portcullis House - near the Houses of Parliament where the DL gave some comments to 7 out 13 invited MP's (6 didn't bother to turn up). Then later around 1000 Shugden practitioners demonstrated outside the Royal Albert Hall - the DL drove straight past us and definitely heard what we were saying. Inside he didn't mention at all anything about Dorje Shugden - an unusual event to be sure. The world's press swarmed everywhere and many many people took our information packs about the abuses and took photographs and personal videos of our actions.....reports are appearing on another link here...
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Hi all,
Again I just want to thank everyone for their time here and thought I'd add a few cents to the topic.
First - I do not feel it is helpful or necessary in any way to take on the character and/or qualifications of the Dalai Lama. Period. The facts alone speak for themselves and that is ultimately what will garner the support that is being sought after. Who among us is qualified to judge the character of the Dalai Lama... or anyone for that matter? Please speak up.
Clayton, I agree with you that some of the language on this forum (and not by most, so please don't take offence) is irresponsible and self-serving and does not benefit the urgent nature of this issue. However, please do take the time to read further into the posts because those one or two individuals do not represent the majority here who are earnestly trying to shed light on this issue... to find a solution and to do so with the best possible intentions for the Buddha Dharma.
Second - I think it is of utmost importance that we back up whatever we can with facts... credibility is of the essence as we are building our reputation from the ground up in the global community... and possibly even having to drag it out of the dirt a bit as there has been so much negative publicity in the past that has gone uncontested. My friend - I think you are correct in many ways - and the urgency of getting the information out is just as important, so please don't think I'm discounting your efforts and advice... just supplementing it with hopes for quality and credibility.
We've got to do this right.
Best wishes ;o)
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Three Pots is saying: I think it is of utmost importance that we back up whatever we can with facts... credibility is of the essence
Dearest friend Tripitaka, and TK and Clayton and all.
There is something I want to say but I'm not sure to be able to say it right.
Ok. Let's go back to the beginning.
As we said many times, neither our Lamas nor our Dharmapala need to be protected. Sentient beings are the ones who need that we protect our Lama's reputation, Je Tsongkapa's lineage reputation, and of course our Dharmapala's. Sentient beings need that their reputation be recovered from the mud where the Dalai Lama has thrown it, because otherwise, how can they benefit from this pure lineage, these pure Lamas, this glorious Protector, described as the lineage protected by an evil spirit, and upheld by devil-worshippers? So this is clear I hope, this is our motivation. As the ContentedKadampa wrote: You are protecting this lineage of teachings for future generations who will come to love -- and benefit from -- the profound practice of Dorje Shugden... and, I would say, the whole of the practices of this peerless lineage of Je Rinpoche's.
How to do this?
Well, this is the part difficult to express. I just hate to discuss our lineage and our Lamas and our Protector with those who are not suitable. There are rules for debate, and I do not wish to debate religious points with people that are not my fellow practitioners. The "Dharamsala side" is not suitable: not only the Dalai Lama refuses debate, he uses also false speech as easily as a kid eats candy. Journalists in general are not suitable: this is a tantric practice after all and to try to explain it is quite risky from the vows point of view, and besides, what would they understand? Nothing. Even historical facts about our most holy Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen: to the public, they are so distorted already by biased parties, and they are purposely mudded in such a way that in the end who can definitely claim this or that in the ordinary level? Even documents can be said to be false when you want to remain in denial of truth. People barely know their own history, who is going to follow these mystical fogs where even our general Dharmapalas are considered "Demons of Tibet" ... as the famous exhibit called them 35 years ago in Paris.
If you need to give facts, it's today's facts that count, that don't have to be proved, they are happening as we talk. We don't need credibility when you can have the victims talking today. We have to show the world today that the Dalai Lama is coldly attacking today the human rights of so many of his own people while preaching today world peace and demanding respect for the human rights of Tibetans in Tibet. It's by showing this daring duplicity that the world might understand that what he did and said against the Protector and our Lamas is totally untrue, a red herring to distract from his unlawful actions, and the Protector, a scapegoat for the rage of Tibetans deprived even of the dream of independence by a single man, without ever having themselves been asked their opinion.
So the urgency of getting the information out comes from this, that the facts are happening right now and we don't need to work on backing up anything. Also of course, that anything connected to the Dalai Lama in the next days, until the Olympic Games, makes news titles. After that the attention to anything connected to him is going to die for a long time, precisely because of the intensity of the attention given to him today.
Trinley Kelsang: just before posting this, your new, terribly moving message arrived. Friend, I'm unable to say anything about it, I just wish you were here to give you a hug.
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For years now they've been leaking the rumor that there was going to be a ban against our holy lady from Kechara. Even if you wish with all your might to hit Je Pabongka, our second Naropa, since she belongs to all traditions it's impossible to do something like that ... but who knows? The blood in the milk ... I don't know the goose that is going to be able to separate them now.
...
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And this mud slinging continues past the Dorje Shugden "situation" as well. Recently I read on a different Buddhist forum all kinds of wrong information being thrown about the Kadam Emanation scripture, saying it was somehow "controversial", etc. Then it was brought it up was mixed up with "Dholgyal", so it can't be trusted.
Some of the moderators of the eSangha have openly proclaimed that they have actively worked against the NKT and other DS-oriented organizations for years (and that was about 4 years ago). So do not expect them to show any symphathy...
The sad thing is, that their excuse is that they are "supporting the wishes of HH Sakya Trizin and the Rime-hopes of HHDL.(If the future of the Sakya lineage is in the hands of people like those, then all we have is just another destroyed lineage... So sad, so sad.)