dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zach on January 15, 2013, 10:45:47 AM
-
"The assertion that Setrap is an enlightened being is not even held by all of the lamas at Gaden Shartse.
Geshe-la and I live at a centre where the senior teacher is a Ganden Jangtse geshe. He arrived in the early days so stayed with the Shartse monks and has expressed similar opinions. I can ask him specifically about this issue when he comes back to the Netherlands, but unfortunately that won't be until March as he is at Gaden in India at the moment."
"Why do some not consider Setrap an enlightened being ?"
"Because he manifests through oracles and manifests as a gyalpo- as has been stated time and time again in other threads.
This is what my one friend from Ganden Shartse has told me. I will wait to follow this up more with the other Geshe at our centre (from Ganden)but it will have to wait until March.
Many of the monasteries have worldly protectors not just Shartse- at Sera Jey it is Chamseng, Sera Mey Thaog- they are respected as spiritual deities but not enlightened beings."
Now the question is what evidence is there to suggest that Setrap is either a Worldly or an enlightened being, Its odd isn't it seeing that according to this many members of Gaden Shartse have mixed views on him.
-
It has always been explained to me that Setrap is definitively an emanation of Amitabha, who is most certainly enlightened. It is certainly possible for an enlightened being to manifest in a worldly form (nirmanakaya) as a means of being "closer" to sentient beings - it is just another method.
The phrase you quoted is "Because he manifests through oracles and manifests as a gyalpo". I highlight the word "manifest" because this is most important. It is not stating that he is a gyalpo or a worldly being, but just assumes that form and manifests in this way. There is a clear distinction.
In this case, it would be helpful to look at what the texts and prayers say of Setrap, and how he is described. I refer to this prayer: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/prayers/other-prayers/a-prayer-to-setrab/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/prayers/other-prayers/a-prayer-to-setrab/)
Let's look at some of the lines:
(verse 1):
From the nature of bliss-void or any other place
My Great Protector, powerful Setrab Chen
Only Buddhas can manifest from or exist in the nature of bliss-void (enlightenment). To invoke Setrap directly in this way is to invite him from a sphere of bliss-void, enlightenment, indicating his enlightened mind.
(verse 2):
Great manifested Dharma King
A King of Dharma, is one who has gained mastery over all Dharma - an enlightened being.
(verse 3):
To you, the leader of great bliss, Setrabchen,
I offer with enthusiastic inspiration, in the cup of bliss-protection,
The great offerings whose nature is bliss-void and wisdom.
Please accept them, with the ultimate bliss-void attitude.
Again, one cannot be the leader of great bliss unless he has attained that himself. To attain great bliss is to be enlightened; and so, we infer that Setrab is enlightened.
Similarly, for him to be able to accept offerings with the ultimate bliss-void attitude would mean he is enlightened.
(verse 4):
Dharma King, who appears from the wisdom which is inseparable from bliss,
again, a Dharma King refers only to an enlightened being; and a being who appears from wisdom / bliss can only be one who is enlightened.
The prayers go on... and this is just a sampling, but I think the references are very clear as to his enlightened nature. Important to note too that this was not just written by any normal practitioner but by a highly respected and attained lama, Gelek Rinpoche - so his references would not be arbitrary!
Hope this has been of some help. Peace.
-
"The assertion that Setrap is an enlightened being is not even held by all of the lamas at Gaden Shartse.
Geshe-la and I live at a centre where the senior teacher is a Ganden Jangtse geshe. He arrived in the early days so stayed with the Shartse monks and has expressed similar opinions. I can ask him specifically about this issue when he comes back to the Netherlands, but unfortunately that won't be until March as he is at Gaden in India at the moment."
"Why do some not consider Setrap an enlightened being ?"
"Because he manifests through oracles and manifests as a gyalpo- as has been stated time and time again in other threads.
This is what my one friend from Ganden Shartse has told me. I will wait to follow this up more with the other Geshe at our centre (from Ganden)but it will have to wait until March.
Many of the monasteries have worldly protectors not just Shartse- at Sera Jey it is Chamseng, Sera Mey Thaog- they are respected as spiritual deities but not enlightened beings."
Now the question is what evidence is there to suggest that Setrap is either a Worldly or an enlightened being, Its odd isn't it seeing that according to this many members of Gaden Shartse have mixed views on him.
I always thought he was a yaksha, not a gyalpo or are they the same?
In any case, I guess my answer is this - I practise Dorje Shugden because he is my Protector, and the Protector of my lineage lamas. Since Setrap appears within Dorje Shugdens mandala, above Dorje Shugden (as is depicted in thangkas)... how can an unenlightened being appear above an enlightened being?
Of course thats not a scriptural reference like what beggar has provided, but thats the logic I use. Since I have full faith in Dorje Shugden and his forms and depictions, in order for Setrap to appear in the same mandala as an enlightened being, AND appear above him, he has to be more than worldly.
-
Interesting Information but does anyone have anything deeper Regarding Setraps nature it interests me to know that not all the Sangha at Shartse consider him to be enlightened I wonder why ?
-
Dharma Defender has a point, why would an unenlightened protector be depicted above Dorje Shugden in his mandala and if we believe that Dorje Shugden is an emanation of Manjushri and hence an enlightened protector, how can an unenlightened one be staying above Dorje Shugden???
(http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/wp-content/gallery/dorje-shugden-images/01mandala.jpg)
The picture above is the MANDALA of Dorje Shugden. Reason why people say both Setrab and Dorje Shugden are from the same mandala is because they both reside in the same Mandala (celestial mansion).
You can see in the picture below - at the top of the mansion resides Buddha Amitabha followed by SETRAB at the second level and then Dorje Shugden at the first level together with His other 4 emanations.
Attending to Dorje Shugden are his entourage consisting of the nine mothers, eight guiding monks and ten youthful and wrathful deities. Beyond that, there are also two Ministers of Dorje Shugden - Kache Marpo and Namkar Barzin residing in the Mandala to assist The King in protecting and spreading the Dharma.
From a previous post: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1674.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1674.0)
How is Lord Setrab connected to Dorje Shugden?
Although Dorje Shugden and Lord Setrab are Dharma Protectors in their own right, both are closely connected through the past life of Dorje Shugden who is Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.
As Lord Setrab was one of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen’s main Protectors, they must have had a very close bond that even until today, both are still very much connected. Even in the celestial Mandala of Dorje Shugden resides Lord Setrab on the second level. This shows that they have a very special relationship with one another. They abide in the same divine mandala palace.
Many years back when Dorje Shugden was said to be a spirit, many rituals and fire pujas was performed to destroy the Great King. But because Dorje Shugden is an Enlightened Protector, he could not be destroyed in any way. During those times, only Lord Setrab manifested assistance towards his close friend, Dorje Shugden.
There is a story that says when Mingling Terchen performed a wrathful fire puja on Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, Lord Setrab emanated a celestial mansion in the sky as Mingling was about to start the puja. This act distracted Mingling Terchen’s mind for a moment while giving enough time for Gyalchen Dorje Shugden to escape.
Why are some monks saying Setrab is not enlightened could be because of the connection with Dorje Shugden perhaps??? We should not just listen to what they say but to actually check back with logic and evidence that we can logically conclude.
-
Anyway... found a short biography on Setrab, perhaps this may help Zach clear some doubts?
Dharmapala Setrap Chen or more commonly known as "The Wild Tsen" or "Setrap Protector" is actually an ancient protector who comes from the Holy Land of Bodhgaya where Lord Shakyamuni Buddha was enlightened. Setrap Protector is actually the wrathful form of Buddha Amitabha that sworn to protect the teachings of Buddhism to Lord Sakyamuni Buddha. Setrap Protector is brought to Tibet by the translator called Loden Sherab (Ngog Lotsawa) from India just to spread and make the dharma grow. Setrap Chen's name actually derive from the word " golden cuirass" and it refers to the Gold Armor that he wears in Battles, This Symbolized the battle with our minds and also the spiritual side with the Demons of both inner and outer.
Setrap Protector is an ancient Protector that exists before our age and sworn to protect the teachings of Buddhism to Lord Sakyamuni Buddha himself and renewed his vow with Guru Rinpoche. At that time Lord Setrap's Practices are most commonly practiced in Buddhist Monasteries in both Nalanda and Bodhgaya in India. Traveled with the translator called Loden Sherab to the Land of Snow (Tibet) from India just to spread and make the dharma grow. Just before Loden Sherab starts his journey to Tibet, the abbot of Bodhgaya Monastery was said to have entrusted him with Setrap Protector for the success in growth of Buddhism in Tibet.
Setrap Protector being the wrathful emanation of Buddha Amitabha has been the protector for Ganden Shartse Monastery one of the two college of Gaden Monastery for many hundreds of years. Setrap Protector's tasks among these degenerate times are good in pacifying our obstacles and also to make conditions conducive for everything good; namely the practice of dharma which leads to our eternal happiness. His role of being a wrathful emanation is very similar like angry parents towards their child. Although sometimes our parents seems to be angry at us, but the anger is always motivated by love and concern towards their child's well being. Buddha Amitabha emanate into this wrathful form is to direct into our inner and secret defilements of our own attachments, anger, ignorance and or ego. As an "Enlightened Buddha" despite his wrathful outer looks, Setrap Protector is well known for accomplishing the deadliest and swiftest destruction for all inner, outer and secret obstacles. As stated in the "Setrap Puja Book" (Shartse Jewel) the cudgel that Lord Setrap holds with his right hand are made of 'sandalwood from the forests of Malaya' – (Malaya in now known as Malaysia). As a proof of a being a devoted protector of Buddhism, Setrap Protector actually sew Guru Rinpoche’s shoe to his crown when he renewed his vow as a proof.
Therefore Setrap Protector is “One of the Best” of the Enlightened being that we can pray to when we have any obstacles to pacify, especially those who keeps us away from Dharma.
Source: http://www.lordsetrap.com/biography.html (http://www.lordsetrap.com/biography.html)
-
As far as I know, Setrab is an enlightened protector from the manifestation of Amitabha Buddha. He manifested in the Nirmanakaya form, and thus Setrab is known to be very close to us... closer than we actually know. The Nirmanakaya form can be associated with for example, enlightened masters coming back into this world in the form of tulkus. They return in a form where we, ordinary beings can relate and see and receive teachings from... how kind our Gurus are to come back continuously.
So the question comes, why does Setrab need to manifest in a worldly form? Simple, to allow accurate prophecies when the oracle takes trance. So how does this work? Take for example, I am 12 years old, I will not have friends that are in their 50s simply because my level of thinking is not the same and I will find it easier to have conversations with other 12 year olds. So similarly, our Dharma Protector our of compassion emanate into forms that we can feel closer to.
There are ofcourse other factors such as our karma... Because of so much defilement in our mind, we are clouded by our negative karma which just prevents us from being able to see enlightened beings. Also, because the force and energy of enlightened beings are so strong, it is not possible for an oracle's body to withstand it. Thus Amitabha, out of compassion emanated into a worldly form for us.
Besides the fact that Setrab is the emanation of Amitabha Buddha, if we look into the story where Setrab saved DS from the fire puja? Well... logically speaking, if Setrab was a wordly spirit, then he would have been destroyed by the fire puja... perhaps that's why Nechung did not 'save' DS from the fire puja because he would be wiped out from it... hehe.
-
Anyway... found a short biography on Setrab, perhaps this may help Zach clear some doubts?
Dharmapala Setrap Chen or more commonly known as "The Wild Tsen" or "Setrap Protector" is actually an ancient protector who comes from the Holy Land of Bodhgaya where Lord Shakyamuni Buddha was enlightened. Setrap Protector is actually the wrathful form of Buddha Amitabha that sworn to protect the teachings of Buddhism to Lord Sakyamuni Buddha. Setrap Protector is brought to Tibet by the translator called Loden Sherab (Ngog Lotsawa) from India just to spread and make the dharma grow. Setrap Chen's name actually derive from the word " golden cuirass" and it refers to the Gold Armor that he wears in Battles, This Symbolized the battle with our minds and also the spiritual side with the Demons of both inner and outer.
Setrap Protector is an ancient Protector that exists before our age and sworn to protect the teachings of Buddhism to Lord Sakyamuni Buddha himself and renewed his vow with Guru Rinpoche. At that time Lord Setrap's Practices are most commonly practiced in Buddhist Monasteries in both Nalanda and Bodhgaya in India. Traveled with the translator called Loden Sherab to the Land of Snow (Tibet) from India just to spread and make the dharma grow. Just before Loden Sherab starts his journey to Tibet, the abbot of Bodhgaya Monastery was said to have entrusted him with Setrap Protector for the success in growth of Buddhism in Tibet.
Setrap Protector being the wrathful emanation of Buddha Amitabha has been the protector for Ganden Shartse Monastery one of the two college of Gaden Monastery for many hundreds of years. Setrap Protector's tasks among these degenerate times are good in pacifying our obstacles and also to make conditions conducive for everything good; namely the practice of dharma which leads to our eternal happiness. His role of being a wrathful emanation is very similar like angry parents towards their child. Although sometimes our parents seems to be angry at us, but the anger is always motivated by love and concern towards their child's well being. Buddha Amitabha emanate into this wrathful form is to direct into our inner and secret defilements of our own attachments, anger, ignorance and or ego. As an "Enlightened Buddha" despite his wrathful outer looks, Setrap Protector is well known for accomplishing the deadliest and swiftest destruction for all inner, outer and secret obstacles. As stated in the "Setrap Puja Book" (Shartse Jewel) the cudgel that Lord Setrap holds with his right hand are made of 'sandalwood from the forests of Malaya' – (Malaya in now known as Malaysia). As a proof of a being a devoted protector of Buddhism, Setrap Protector actually sew Guru Rinpoche’s shoe to his crown when he renewed his vow as a proof.
Therefore Setrap Protector is “One of the Best” of the Enlightened being that we can pray to when we have any obstacles to pacify, especially those who keeps us away from Dharma.
Source: [url]http://www.lordsetrap.com/biography.html[/url] ([url]http://www.lordsetrap.com/biography.html[/url])
No doubts its the view of others I find interesting as how they've come to acquire them.
-
Setrab is definitely Amithaba and he is enlightened. My Lama did explain to me once that when the great translator Loden Sherab brought him to Tibet, he tested Setrab's power by pressing his weight on him while crossing a river. Loden Sherab is an enlightened master and if Setrab was not enlightened, he would have sunk into the river but he could hold Loden Sherab despite being pressed down. The difference in opinion that you have witnessed could be caused by asking the wrong people in Ganden Shartse. One cannot expect that every single monk in a monastery is there with pure intentions, or that every single monk in the monastery is well studied. There are some who have their own opinions of how things ought to be. So it is natural if there are monks who think that Setrab is not enlightened, but what matters the most is whether or not your teacher holds him as enlightened, if he does then you should not question further. If your teacher doesnt mention Setrab, whether or not he is enlightened dosent really concern you, right? :)
-
Setrab is definitely Amithaba and he is enlightened. My Lama did explain to me once that when the great translator Loden Sherab brought him to Tibet, he tested Setrab's power by pressing his weight on him while crossing a river. Loden Sherab is an enlightened master and if Setrab was not enlightened, he would have sunk into the river but he could hold Loden Sherab despite being pressed down. The difference in opinion that you have witnessed could be caused by asking the wrong people in Ganden Shartse. One cannot expect that every single monk in a monastery is there with pure intentions, or that every single monk in the monastery is well studied. There are some who have their own opinions of how things ought to be. So it is natural if there are monks who think that Setrab is not enlightened, but what matters the most is whether or not your teacher holds him as enlightened, if he does then you should not question further. If your teacher doesnt mention Setrab, whether or not he is enlightened dosent really concern you, right? :)
Took the words right out of my mouth. Fair point. Just as another example, is Nechung enlightened or not? What is the evidence upon which people say he is enlightened and people say he is unenlightened?
For example, other Dharma Protectors who are enlightened (e.g. Palden Lhamo) did not need to be subdued but Padmasambhava subdued Nechung (unenlightened). He is also known as the King of the Gyalpos (unenlightened) but in Music Delighting, Trijang Rinpoche clearly quotes someone as saying Nechung is a Dharma King (enlightened).
So is Music Delighting i.e. Trijang Rinpoche wrong, or is the general consensus that Nechung is unenlightened correct?
-
Setrab is definitely Amithaba and he is enlightened. My Lama did explain to me once that when the great translator Loden Sherab brought him to Tibet, he tested Setrab's power by pressing his weight on him while crossing a river. Loden Sherab is an enlightened master and if Setrab was not enlightened, he would have sunk into the river but he could hold Loden Sherab despite being pressed down. The difference in opinion that you have witnessed could be caused by asking the wrong people in Ganden Shartse. One cannot expect that every single monk in a monastery is there with pure intentions, or that every single monk in the monastery is well studied. There are some who have their own opinions of how things ought to be. So it is natural if there are monks who think that Setrab is not enlightened, but what matters the most is whether or not your teacher holds him as enlightened, if he does then you should not question further. If your teacher doesnt mention Setrab, whether or not he is enlightened dosent really concern you, right? :)
There are many things that are left unsaid, Its good to know where these views come from.
-
It is definitely surprising to me to hear that not all Lamas at Ganden Shartse think of Setrab as enlightened. Did you hear this directly, Zach? Or was it told to you by someone else? I would have thought that as Setrab is the Dharma Protector of Ganden Shartse, they would all have the same view of Setrab. I am curious which lamas actually disagree. Perhaps it is simply a linguistic thing - as in what the monk wanted to say was that Setrab manifests as a worldly being, which he did, rather than saying Setrab IS a worldly being. The correct meaning could have been lost in translation - like a case of chinese whispers. Just a thought.
-
No doubts its the view of others I find interesting as how they've come to acquire them.
Aye, I agree with you there. I'd be very interested to know how and why people would develop such a contrasting view to what has been commonly accepted for hundreds - nay over a 1000 - years.
How I would respond to such queries or ambiguities is to focus and find stability within our minds by examining the teachings and explanations of known authorities and teachers. And also to examine - WHO exactly is saying what? If such a claim like that of Setrap being unenlightened is unsubstantiated or backed by any real authority, then I'd certainly be less inclined to believe it or even pay any real heed to it. After all, even the perfect Buddha had enemies who spent their entire lives trying to disprove his enlightenment!.
Anyhow, I have also just chanced upon this text again recently - the autobiography of the Choyang Dulzin Kuten (Oracle) which I thought might be of some help. It offers much validation for who Setrap is and the many highly esteemed lamas who recognised his enlightened nature.
See this paragraph (emphasis is my own):
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/autobiography-of-his-eminence-choyang-duldzin-kuten-lama/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/autobiography-of-his-eminence-choyang-duldzin-kuten-lama/)
I was also taken possession of by the dharmapala of Shartse Monastery, called Setrap (the wrathful form of Buddha Amitayus). Both Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang and Kyabje Song Rinpoche decided that a final observation should be done by the high lamas to determine my authenticity. The high lamas included the Radeng Regent, Phuchog Jamgong Rinpoche, Kyabje Tadak Rinpoche, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Trukhang Puti Khangsar Dharmapala. The final examination was made in front of all the monks of Shartse College (the year was 1939). The total number of monks at Shartse College at this time was over two thousand. Prior to this ceremony there were seven days of intensive purification practice. As part of the ceremony slips of paper were rolled into pills, one saying that the possessing being was Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, another saying that it was a being who could not gain rebirth from bardo (intermediate) state. There were another three slips of paper rolled into pills for the Dharmapala Setrap. When I went into trance I was offered the first set of pills. I immediately took and ate the one referring to the Dharmapala Dorje Shugden. The same test was made of the Dharmapala Setrap. At that time I threw the other two pills away and pointed to the one left – the one referring to Dharmapala Setrap. Up to that point I had still not been convinced, but this was the final and conclusive test. I was then approved of as an oracle of the two dharmapalas, Gyalchen Dorje Shugden and Setrap.
-
It is definitely surprising to me to hear that not all Lamas at Ganden Shartse think of Setrab as enlightened. Did you hear this directly, Zach? Or was it told to you by someone else? I would have thought that as Setrab is the Dharma Protector of Ganden Shartse, they would all have the same view of Setrab. I am curious which lamas actually disagree. Perhaps it is simply a linguistic thing - as in what the monk wanted to say was that Setrab manifests as a worldly being, which he did, rather than saying Setrab IS a worldly being. The correct meaning could have been lost in translation - like a case of chinese whispers. Just a thought.
This was a monk on Dharmawheel who practices on the otherside, So it was certainly interesting to hear his opinion :)
-
No doubts its the view of others I find interesting as how they've come to acquire them.
Aye, I agree with you there. I'd be very interested to know how and why people would develop such a contrasting view to what has been commonly accepted for hundreds - nay over a 1000 - years.
How I would respond to such queries or ambiguities is to focus and find stability within our minds by examining the teachings and explanations of known authorities and teachers. And also to examine - WHO exactly is saying what? If such a claim like that of Setrap being unenlightened is unsubstantiated or backed by any real authority, then I'd certainly be less inclined to believe it or even pay any real heed to it. After all, even the perfect Buddha had enemies who spent their entire lives trying to disprove his enlightenment!.
Anyhow, I have also just chanced upon this text again recently - the autobiography of the Choyang Dulzin Kuten (Oracle) which I thought might be of some help. It offers much validation for who Setrap is and the many highly esteemed lamas who recognised his enlightened nature.
See this paragraph (emphasis is my own):
[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/autobiography-of-his-eminence-choyang-duldzin-kuten-lama/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/autobiography-of-his-eminence-choyang-duldzin-kuten-lama/[/url])
I was also taken possession of by the dharmapala of Shartse Monastery, called Setrap (the wrathful form of Buddha Amitayus). Both Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang and Kyabje Song Rinpoche decided that a final observation should be done by the high lamas to determine my authenticity. The high lamas included the Radeng Regent, Phuchog Jamgong Rinpoche, Kyabje Tadak Rinpoche, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Trukhang Puti Khangsar Dharmapala. The final examination was made in front of all the monks of Shartse College (the year was 1939). The total number of monks at Shartse College at this time was over two thousand. Prior to this ceremony there were seven days of intensive purification practice. As part of the ceremony slips of paper were rolled into pills, one saying that the possessing being was Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, another saying that it was a being who could not gain rebirth from bardo (intermediate) state. There were another three slips of paper rolled into pills for the Dharmapala Setrap. When I went into trance I was offered the first set of pills. I immediately took and ate the one referring to the Dharmapala Dorje Shugden. The same test was made of the Dharmapala Setrap. At that time I threw the other two pills away and pointed to the one left – the one referring to Dharmapala Setrap. Up to that point I had still not been convinced, but this was the final and conclusive test. I was then approved of as an oracle of the two dharmapalas, Gyalchen Dorje Shugden and Setrap.
Thats an interesting validation list, It will be interesting to hear his response.
-
Well, there are just too many evidences that seems to point that Setrab is actually a Dharma Protector that is fully enlightened while manifesting in a worldly form. Yes, worldly Dharma Protector are worshiped in Gelug tradition but generally frown upon. I am not familiar with Camseng but I do know that Sera May propitiate Teu, an unenlightened Protector with a top hat. The image of the statue is only carried into the monastery for pujas and escorted out after pujas.
On the other hand, Setrab was actually the Protector of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. Hence, when the spirit of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen assumed the form of Dorje Shugden, widespread disasters, diseases, spirits, deaths and so forth broke out all over Lhasa. The blame was pinned solely on the spirit of the deceased Lama. The Dalai Lama eventually contracted some Nyingma Lamas to destroy the spirit with powerful fire rituals. It was said that Dorje Shugden was rescued on several occasions by Setrab.
Now, if Setrab was unenlightened, how could he rescue Dorje Shugden and like someone mentioned if he was unenlightened, why would Dorje Shugden have him reside on the floor above him. These points seemed to point to the fact that Setrab must be more than meets the eye and must definitely possess an enlightened mind.
-
It is definitely surprising to me to hear that not all Lamas at Ganden Shartse think of Setrab as enlightened. Did you hear this directly, Zach? Or was it told to you by someone else? I would have thought that as Setrab is the Dharma Protector of Ganden Shartse, they would all have the same view of Setrab. I am curious which lamas actually disagree. Perhaps it is simply a linguistic thing - as in what the monk wanted to say was that Setrab manifests as a worldly being, which he did, rather than saying Setrab IS a worldly being. The correct meaning could have been lost in translation - like a case of chinese whispers. Just a thought.
This was a monk on Dharmawheel who practices on the otherside, So it was certainly interesting to hear his opinion :)
I did chance upon that thread in question and it strikes me that the 'monk' is partially biased against Setrab. He does not need to check with his monk friends to see whether or not Setrab is enlightened -- he only needs to read the prayers, and also consult the elder Kensurs there. Setrab being an enlightened being in the Gelug tradition is a well established. Even Lati Rinpoche's center in Singapore (http://www.drophenling.com/Default.aspx (http://www.drophenling.com/Default.aspx)) installs Setrab as an enlightened Dharma protector. The difference in opinion to me does not matter because the Sakyas view Dorje Shugden and Setrab as both unenlightened protectors, you want to investigate where that view comes from? If we spend all day investigating who's right and who's wrong, we wont reach a conclusion because everyone has their views due to the fact that everyone's karmic dispositions is different. You could however, show the monk a link to the drophenling website and remind him that Lati Rinpoche did assert that Setrab is an enlightened protector. The senior monks of Ganden Shartse knows this. Some things cannot be argued unless that monk person has ulterior motives in declaring otherwise. After all, we would not know if he is saying this to put down Shartse as he appears to be from Jangtse.
-
To Ensapa,
If Setrab is in the 'mandala' house of Shugden then he must be a worldy being. Another evidence is he can take trance in oracles that Dhogyal takes trance in sharing the same vessel. Why would a worldy being be able to share the vessel of a enlightened being. It's like letting dhogyal drink from the cup of HHDL. That would be profane. As he is an evil spirit that harms and would not be able to be in the presence of HHDL (pure love and light) without first being tamed. Like bank robbers seeing the police show up would flee.
Setrab is definitely a worldy god but much more higher than dhogyal who is an evil incarnate spirit of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's perverted prayers due to his jealousy of the Great 5th Dalai Lama. But there was no competition in the first place between 5th Dalai Lama and Tulku.
-
It is definitely surprising to me to hear that not all Lamas at Ganden Shartse think of Setrab as enlightened. Did you hear this directly, Zach? Or was it told to you by someone else? I would have thought that as Setrab is the Dharma Protector of Ganden Shartse, they would all have the same view of Setrab. I am curious which lamas actually disagree. Perhaps it is simply a linguistic thing - as in what the monk wanted to say was that Setrab manifests as a worldly being, which he did, rather than saying Setrab IS a worldly being. The correct meaning could have been lost in translation - like a case of chinese whispers. Just a thought.
This was a monk on Dharmawheel who practices on the otherside, So it was certainly interesting to hear his opinion :)
I did chance upon that thread in question and it strikes me that the 'monk' is partially biased against Setrab. He does not need to check with his monk friends to see whether or not Setrab is enlightened -- he only needs to read the prayers, and also consult the elder Kensurs there. Setrab being an enlightened being in the Gelug tradition is a well established. Even Lati Rinpoche's center in Singapore ([url]http://www.drophenling.com/Default.aspx[/url] ([url]http://www.drophenling.com/Default.aspx[/url])) installs Setrab as an enlightened Dharma protector. The difference in opinion to me does not matter because the Sakyas view Dorje Shugden and Setrab as both unenlightened protectors, you want to investigate where that view comes from? If we spend all day investigating who's right and who's wrong, we wont reach a conclusion because everyone has their views due to the fact that everyone's karmic dispositions is different. You could however, show the monk a link to the drophenling website and remind him that Lati Rinpoche did assert that Setrab is an enlightened protector. The senior monks of Ganden Shartse knows this. Some things cannot be argued unless that monk person has ulterior motives in declaring otherwise. After all, we would not know if he is saying this to put down Shartse as he appears to be from Jangtse.
hmmmm personally i would be at loath to just take someone's word for it on an online forum. I would prefer to look at the evidence, as Ensapa has presented. Firstly - the wordings in Setrab's prayers, and secondly, that Lati Rinpoche's centre says that Setrab is enlightened. As Lati Rinpoche is an ex-abbot of Ganden, i am sure he would know what he is talking about.
Anyway, whoever the monk is (or isn't as may be the case sometimes!), sometimes people just want to create mischief so we should just look at the facts and sort the wheat from the chaff.
-
Sorry. Lati Rinpoche use to practice Shugden too till he was enlightened by HHDL's views. Then he gave up. That means Lati Rinpoche can make mistakes too. He may be a great teacher, but he can make mistakes. So he can be mistaken about Setrab easily with good intentions? :)
It is definitely surprising to me to hear that not all Lamas at Ganden Shartse think of Setrab as enlightened. Did you hear this directly, Zach? Or was it told to you by someone else? I would have thought that as Setrab is the Dharma Protector of Ganden Shartse, they would all have the same view of Setrab. I am curious which lamas actually disagree. Perhaps it is simply a linguistic thing - as in what the monk wanted to say was that Setrab manifests as a worldly being, which he did, rather than saying Setrab IS a worldly being. The correct meaning could have been lost in translation - like a case of chinese whispers. Just a thought.
This was a monk on Dharmawheel who practices on the otherside, So it was certainly interesting to hear his opinion :)
I did chance upon that thread in question and it strikes me that the 'monk' is partially biased against Setrab. He does not need to check with his monk friends to see whether or not Setrab is enlightened -- he only needs to read the prayers, and also consult the elder Kensurs there. Setrab being an enlightened being in the Gelug tradition is a well established. Even Lati Rinpoche's center in Singapore ([url]http://www.drophenling.com/Default.aspx[/url] ([url]http://www.drophenling.com/Default.aspx[/url])) installs Setrab as an enlightened Dharma protector. The difference in opinion to me does not matter because the Sakyas view Dorje Shugden and Setrab as both unenlightened protectors, you want to investigate where that view comes from? If we spend all day investigating who's right and who's wrong, we wont reach a conclusion because everyone has their views due to the fact that everyone's karmic dispositions is different. You could however, show the monk a link to the drophenling website and remind him that Lati Rinpoche did assert that Setrab is an enlightened protector. The senior monks of Ganden Shartse knows this. Some things cannot be argued unless that monk person has ulterior motives in declaring otherwise. After all, we would not know if he is saying this to put down Shartse as he appears to be from Jangtse.
hmmmm personally i would be at loath to just take someone's word for it on an online forum. I would prefer to look at the evidence, as Ensapa has presented. Firstly - the wordings in Setrab's prayers, and secondly, that Lati Rinpoche's centre says that Setrab is enlightened. As Lati Rinpoche is an ex-abbot of Ganden, i am sure he would know what he is talking about.
Anyway, whoever the monk is (or isn't as may be the case sometimes!), sometimes people just want to create mischief so we should just look at the facts and sort the wheat from the chaff.
-
Sorry. Lati Rinpoche use to practice Shugden too till he was enlightened by HHDL's views. Then he gave up. That means Lati Rinpoche can make mistakes too. He may be a great teacher, but he can make mistakes. So he can be mistaken about Setrab easily with good intentions?
It is definitely surprising to me to hear that not all Lamas at Ganden Shartse think of Setrab as enlightened. Did you hear this directly, Zach? Or was it told to you by someone else? I would have thought that as Setrab is the Dharma Protector of Ganden Shartse, they would all have the same view of Setrab. I am curious which lamas actually disagree. Perhaps it is simply a linguistic thing - as in what the monk wanted to say was that Setrab manifests as a worldly being, which he did, rather than saying Setrab IS a worldly being. The correct meaning could have been lost in translation - like a case of chinese whispers. Just a thought.
This was a monk on Dharmawheel who practices on the otherside, So it was certainly interesting to hear his opinion :)
I did chance upon that thread in question and it strikes me that the 'monk' is partially biased against Setrab. He does not need to check with his monk friends to see whether or not Setrab is enlightened -- he only needs to read the prayers, and also consult the elder Kensurs there. Setrab being an enlightened being in the Gelug tradition is a well established. Even Lati Rinpoche's center in Singapore ([url]http://www.drophenling.com/Default.aspx[/url] ([url]http://www.drophenling.com/Default.aspx[/url])) installs Setrab as an enlightened Dharma protector. The difference in opinion to me does not matter because the Sakyas view Dorje Shugden and Setrab as both unenlightened protectors, you want to investigate where that view comes from? If we spend all day investigating who's right and who's wrong, we wont reach a conclusion because everyone has their views due to the fact that everyone's karmic dispositions is different. You could however, show the monk a link to the drophenling website and remind him that Lati Rinpoche did assert that Setrab is an enlightened protector. The senior monks of Ganden Shartse knows this. Some things cannot be argued unless that monk person has ulterior motives in declaring otherwise. After all, we would not know if he is saying this to put down Shartse as he appears to be from Jangtse.
-
Sorry. Lati Rinpoche use to practice Shugden too till he was enlightened by HHDL's views. Then he gave up. That means Lati Rinpoche can make mistakes too. He may be a great teacher, but he can make mistakes. So he can be mistaken about Setrab easily with good intentions?
I dont think we're qualified to comment on whether or not Lati Rinpoche stopped or went underground instead because he could have not openly practiced Dorje Shugden to show respect to the Dalai Lama, but quietly he does. Else how would his Dharma work be so successful? Lama Zopa does his Dorje Shugden practice quietly as well and he made it very clear that he 'gave up' Shugden out of respect for the Dalai Lama. If Lati Rinpoche can be 'mistaken' about Setrab, then what about Kensur Jampa Yeshe? He also sees Setrab as enlightened also.
-
I dont think we're qualified to comment on whether or not Lati Rinpoche stopped or went underground instead because he could have not openly practiced Dorje Shugden to show respect to the Dalai Lama, but quietly he does. Else how would his Dharma work be so successful? Lama Zopa does his Dorje Shugden practice quietly as well and he made it very clear that he 'gave up' Shugden out of respect for the Dalai Lama. If Lati Rinpoche can be 'mistaken' about Setrab, then what about Kensur Jampa Yeshe? He also sees Setrab as enlightened also.
Yes I second this. There are many reasons for why monks and lamas have "given up" the practice of Dorje Shugden. (in parenthesis because it is quietly known that many masters have continued their practice in secret, although they may publicly declare that they have given it up. This does not necessarily mean that it is because they are saying that Dorje Shugden is wrong or that they have made a mistake. Have you ever heard, explicitly from the mouth of Lati Rinpoche, that he thinks that he made a mistake about Dorje Shugden or that he no longer thinks Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being?
Lama Zopa, for example, has 'given up' the practice of Dorje Shugden but he has never spoken against the practice and he states clearly in a letter to his student: "This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Song Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil." (see Lama Zopa's stance on this among a collection of letters he wrote to his students: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/lama-zopa-advice-book/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/lama-zopa-advice-book/))
So it wouldn't be totally accurate to assume that just because someone gives up the practice, it was for such a simplistic reason that they were "wrong".
-
I dont think we're qualified to comment on whether or not Lati Rinpoche stopped or went underground instead because he could have not openly practiced Dorje Shugden to show respect to the Dalai Lama, but quietly he does. Else how would his Dharma work be so successful? Lama Zopa does his Dorje Shugden practice quietly as well and he made it very clear that he 'gave up' Shugden out of respect for the Dalai Lama. If Lati Rinpoche can be 'mistaken' about Setrab, then what about Kensur Jampa Yeshe? He also sees Setrab as enlightened also.
Yes I second this. There are many reasons for why monks and lamas have "given up" the practice of Dorje Shugden. (in parenthesis because it is quietly known that many masters have continued their practice in secret, although they may publicly declare that they have given it up. This does not necessarily mean that it is because they are saying that Dorje Shugden is wrong or that they have made a mistake. Have you ever heard, explicitly from the mouth of Lati Rinpoche, that he thinks that he made a mistake about Dorje Shugden or that he no longer thinks Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being?
Lama Zopa, for example, has 'given up' the practice of Dorje Shugden but he has never spoken against the practice and he states clearly in a letter to his student: "This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Song Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil." (see Lama Zopa's stance on this among a collection of letters he wrote to his students: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/lama-zopa-advice-book/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/lama-zopa-advice-book/[/url]))
So it wouldn't be totally accurate to assume that just because someone gives up the practice, it was for such a simplistic reason that they were "wrong".
The other thing that I feel that I must point out here is that, most of these highly attained masters would not reveal their Dharma practice because it might be detrimental to people who are not prepared for the higher teachings who emulate these masters. So I dont think we can say that they have given up/still continuing because we are not them and how would we have the clairvoyance to know? But if it is a Lama who is famous for Guru devotion, do you think he would give up his Guru's instructions just because another Lama of a higher rank instructs him to give up what his Guru has taught? I dont think so and neither would I believe that would happen.
-
It has been taught to me that Setrap is the emanation of Amitabha and as a Protector I guess would be in a worldly form.
It was Setrap who assisted Dorje Shugden when DS arose as an enlightened Protector. This fact alone proves with doubt that Setrap is also an enlightened protector, an emanation of Amitabha Buddha.
Very detailed information on this post. Most educational.