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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: WisdomBeing on November 28, 2012, 08:40:26 AM

Title: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: WisdomBeing on November 28, 2012, 08:40:26 AM
This is an interesting take on the effect of psychedelic drug use on spirituality. Sounds very Chogyam Trungpa to me! I don't know anything about zen buddhists or monks and did not even know that psychedelic drugs was involved in their order - if the report below is true which i am skeptical about. As far as I know, drugs of any sort is frowned upon in Buddhism, like alcohol and even smoking (cigarettes!). Has anyone heard about this?

Rick Strassman: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism: My Experience of finding the Dharma


http://dhamamitra.org/2012/11/15/rick-strassman-lsd-as-a-gateway-drug-to-buddhism-my-experience-of-finding-the-dharma/ (http://dhamamitra.org/2012/11/15/rick-strassman-lsd-as-a-gateway-drug-to-buddhism-my-experience-of-finding-the-dharma/)

http://www.youtube.com/embed/f31ky-g_D2o (http://www.youtube.com/embed/f31ky-g_D2o)

This is very much my own Experience:
Psychedelics researcher Rick Strassman discusses LSD as a gateway drug to all sorts of dastardly behaviour, like…Buddhism and the search for enlightenment.

One of the things that got me interested in doing research with these psychedelics is because of how much overlap or similarity seem to exist between the stories that you hear from experienced meditators within the Eastern meditative traditions of Hinduism and Buddhism, and those reports that you hear from people who take these psychedelic drugs. And it always seemed to me there must be some sort of way of combining the two fields, that perhaps you can maybe be inspired to become a Buddhist or a Hindu through the psychedelic experience. And there are a handful of papers that have described that, that quite a few people got their start as Buddhists or Hindus from a big LSD flash.

I went to a Zen temple in my early 20s, and, ever the scientist, every chance I got to speak to a monk one on one, I asked every one of them if they had tripped on psychedelics and how important their trips were in their decision to become a monk. And I’d say 99% of these junior monks in their 20s all got their start on LSD.

Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Ensapa on December 04, 2012, 02:06:03 PM
I dont think anyone can get any religious experience from drugs. Drugs may be able to give fake sensations of bliss by altering the chemical compounds in the brain, but it is not permanent and it is nothing more than sensations created by certain chemicals hitting the brain which in turn influences the mind. Meditation isnt getting high, it is about getting to the bottom of things with your mind and how it works and then facing your own problems but in a graduated matter, then training your mind to work in a more systematic and focused way. I dont think drugs offer that.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: jessicajameson on December 04, 2012, 05:01:04 PM
What an odd topic, Wisdom Being haha! If those people became ordain or were introduced to Buddhism because of drugs - awesome! lol Who are we to decide what ways are better to become ordained lol. Let them trip away on LSD prior to being ordained, and get the real drug-free trip when they are meditating monks!

Last week, I heard that one of my Vietnamese friend's friend had desired to become a monk for the longest time. He did, and entered a Vietnamese monastery ordained and determined to learn the Dharma. After a few months, he became to notice that the other monks were drinking, eating meat and taking drugs. He didn't understand, felt demotivated and disrobed.

I'd rather be the former LSD taker who's now a practicing monk, than the one who looked pure from the beginning but ended up disrobed!
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Ensapa on December 04, 2012, 05:27:39 PM
I believe that one of the vows one must take as a Buddhist is the vow of not ingesting intoxicants, and in this case, intoxicants means drugs as they intoxicate the mind and makes it blur, instead of making it sharp, so it is for sure that drugs and Buddhism do not mix. However, the hippies of the 60s do take drugs and see them as a gateway to spiritual bliss and many of them went to nepal or india to search for a holy teacher of sorts, so the association with drugs and meditation came from there.

Just because popular culture associated it, dosent make it real or positive.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Dorje Pakmo on December 08, 2012, 07:39:45 PM
Quote
One of the things that got me interested in doing research with these psychedelics is because of how much overlap or similarity seem to exist between the stories that you hear from experienced meditators within the Eastern meditative traditions of Hinduism and Buddhism, and those reports that you hear from people who take these psychedelic drugs. And it always seemed to me there must be some sort of way of combining the two fields, that perhaps you can maybe be inspired to become a Buddhist or a Hindu through the psychedelic experience. And there are a handful of papers that have described that, that quite a few people got their start as Buddhists or Hindus from a big LSD flash.

I went to a Zen temple in my early 20s, and, ever the scientist, every chance I got to speak to a monk one on one, I asked every one of them if they had tripped on psychedelics and how important their trips were in their decision to become a monk. And I’d say 99% of these junior monks in their 20s all got their start on LSD.

While on a LSD trip one may seem to have achieved a state of "higher conciousness", and may even have an experience only a high level or experienced meditator could achieve. But this, I personally think it is because they have forcefully opened up their channel with the use of drugs. But how long can one depend on the drugs before it messes up with the body? That is the difference between a LSD trip and a real meditator who practised diligently and meditated for a long time to achieve a higher level of the mind.

The use of drugs can be dangerous as it opens up one's channel. But the channel opened up due to the use of drugs and not years of meditation and experience. A person who has been meditating knows how to control his/her wind and had proper guidance to do so, but those that opened up their channel due to drugs do not have that kind of guidance and control, hence instead of a good experience and achieving realizations and results, all the wrong things may just come through the channel and cause very awful result instead. Such as causing one to be crazy.

So it will be wise for one to stay drug free.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: sonamdhargey on December 09, 2012, 09:32:16 AM
I would think that the drug may help with altering the state of mind or a catalyst to higher state of consciousness. Depending on drugs like LSD to achieve the state of mind is temporary and will be damaging in the long term. The drugs may cause the our channels to open without proper control and may invite unwanted being to enter the channels. It is known that LSD are dangerous and can cause severe problems like sudden flashbacks, schizophrenia and severe depression when taken long term.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Benny on December 09, 2012, 05:36:38 PM
I totally agree with Ensapa's quote : "I believe that one of the vows one must take as a Buddhist is the vow of not ingesting intoxicants, and in this case, intoxicants means drugs as they intoxicate the mind and makes it blur, instead of making it sharp, so it is for sure that drugs and Buddhism do not mix. However, the hippies of the 60s do take drugs and see them as a gateway to spiritual bliss and many of them went to nepal or india to search for a holy teacher of sorts, so the association with drugs and meditation came from there.
Just because popular culture associated it, dosent make it real or positive."

Buddhism and drugs just don't mix , one of the main precepts or vows in taking refuge is to abstain from intoxicating the mind . Of course there would be scores of people who would love to believe that and wants to validate their addiction as a means to be more spiritual, which is a whole bunch of nonsense. Drugs that alters the mind's chemistry is proven through years of scientific research to be damaging to the brain and overall health of the person. Which religion preaches one to take drugs that damages ones well being? None.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: dondrup on December 09, 2012, 07:43:53 PM
Buddhism does not advocate taking of drugs at all.  In fact one of its vows or precepts is to refrain from taking intoxicants.  LSD drug clearly fits the description of an intoxicant.  Taking drugs can only bring harm not good to the consumer.  It could be a mere coincidence that these junior monks got their start on LSD and subsequently turned over a new leaf and become ordained.  Chances are these monks had experienced many problems associated with taking the LSD drugs that prompted them to become ordained eventually.  It is not LSD drug that inspired them but their sufferings that pushes them to become ordained. 
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Aurore on December 16, 2012, 01:42:31 PM
Funny about this post reminds me of someone I knew who took LSD and is truly convinced he spoke to GOD. There is a similar pattern here.

LSD is not considered a highly addictive drug because it does not produce the cravings associated with physical addiction but rather psychological. Usually people use LSD to trip out and experience hallucination. Not every drug makes you hallucinate. So during the state of hallucination, anything can come into a person's mind. They can see things which isn't really there but it's so real they can believe it. I believe it can definitely open up one's mind and break perceptions. In fact, I've heard this many times before, however, none i know took the Buddhist path. hehe.

For addictive drugs like meth, I believe by hitting rock bottom drugs, people can turn into spirituality if they have some imprints and the imprints opens up. Irregardless, any drug should not be used even if it can lead one to Buddhism.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Ensapa on December 19, 2012, 10:16:10 AM
Funny about this post reminds me of someone I knew who took LSD and is truly convinced he spoke to GOD. There is a similar pattern here.

LSD is not considered a highly addictive drug because it does not produce the cravings associated with physical addiction but rather psychological. Usually people use LSD to trip out and experience hallucination. Not every drug makes you hallucinate. So during the state of hallucination, anything can come into a person's mind. They can see things which isn't really there but it's so real they can believe it. I believe it can definitely open up one's mind and break perceptions. In fact, I've heard this many times before, however, none i know took the Buddhist path. hehe.

For addictive drugs like meth, I believe by hitting rock bottom drugs, people can turn into spirituality if they have some imprints and the imprints opens up. Irregardless, any drug should not be used even if it can lead one to Buddhism.

LSD is the one drug that does make you hallucinate because it messes up the chemicals in your brain, causing it to short circuit. As we all know, the brain and the mind is linked and if anything happens to the brain, it will affect what the mind can perceive. So if the brain is fried with chemicals, it will confuse the mind into thinking that it has a spiritual experience. There was another experiment, that if the frontal part of the brain was subjected to magnetic waves, the person affected will feel the presence of a person near him or her. The scientists ran some magnetic waves over a lady who was sleeping, and she woke up in fear, claiming that a man came up to her and embraced her even when there was no one. The mind can be tricked.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: dsiluvu on December 22, 2012, 07:04:14 AM
This is an interesting read... Yes I suppose if through the accidental experimental use of hallucinogens suck as LSD brought someone to Dharma... and now that he/she is in Dharma have totally renounce and become a monk and nun... that kind of story is inspirational!

However we do need to be careful as to how we talk about such activity, not only is it illegal by law but we do not need our minds to trick us in thinking we could gain some form of realisation in Dharma through the use of drugs. Firstly it breaks our refuge vows in taking intoxicants and secondly not everyone would have the same kind of realisations or we could expect a positive result from the attempt. Hence i'd be careful. Some may use their addictions as an excuse to do more.

Also taking drugs, I've been inform by a Dharma teacher pushes open one's chakras, like a force... once these channels are open, it remains open unless someone knows how to close it back... it being open is a gateway for the "formless", inanimate/spirits to actually enter... hence this could cause a person to be posses or their winds may go off and they become koo koo. Now that is a risk we're taking if we're thinking about it.

Here is an interesting article I found while researching on this topic and what Buddhist authors and scholars say about all this psychedelic induced experience in Buddhism....

Quote
(http://[left]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61tu1hst8BL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg[/left])

Robert Aitken, notable among Western Zen teachers for his emphasis on the ethical aspects of Buddhist practice, sees little place for drugs: I dont think drugs have particularly helped anybody arrive where they are. It’s just that by the cultural circumstances of the time, in the sixties and early seventies, it so happened that people came to Zen through their experience with drugs (217).

Many Westerners were first drawn to Zen, and Buddhism generally, through a misconception: that meditation would induce a state similar to a drug high. There seems to be a near-consensus now that this is not the case. However, we should not imagine that this was the first time Buddhism helped established itself in a new culture based on false premises -- though I am not suggesting that these distortions were a deliberate subterfuge. Among the Chinese, who made profound contributions to Buddhist art and philosophy, much of the interest of the general populace and even emperors was the expectation of magical powers conferred by meditation. Even with Huayen, which some modern scholars have considered the most profoundly philosophical school, the reputation of many of its masters rested upon their supposed magical attainments. Perhaps drugs are the successor to magic in promoting the Dharma. Both involve temporary release from ordinary reality. For better or worse, such are part of Buddhist history. To put the best light on them, they can be likened to the carts that are used by the enlightened father in the Lotus Sutra to entice his children from the burning house.

Along with abandoning of the misconception that Buddhist practice as akin to psychedelic drug experience, we seem to be leaving behind the anti-intellectualism of sixties Zen and returning to Buddhism’s textual roots. Aitkin tells us:

“All you have to do is pick up a good Buddhist text, and that’s reality. You don’t have to take drugs to wake up to it. Most people that come to me now are awakened by reading” (216).


If we take enlightenment by reading as a modern equivalent of enlightenment by hearing, Western Buddhism seems to be recovering the methods that have been central to the tradition since its beginnings.

One senses that the time when psychedelics might be justified as a useful first step in spiritual development is past. Not to be overlooked as a reason for this change is the very realistic fear of legal consequences, which is a separate issue from the possible spiritual benefits and biological hazards of psychotropic use. But this is surely not the only reason. Buddhism is now practically mainstream in the West and the possibility of spiritual experience, even enlightenment is widely assumed. The patronizing view of Sigmund Freud and others who dismissed religion as illusion, to be left behind as humanity matures, is no longer dominant. If psychedelics were needed in the sixties to demonstrate that spiritual states of mind actually exist, this is no longer the case.

More here [url]http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma8/zigzag.html[/url] ([url]http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma8/zigzag.html[/url])
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: RedLantern on December 22, 2012, 09:02:02 AM
Buddhist and addicts seem to share some similar perspectives of the world. They both tend to see the transient and fleeting nature of self and phenomena as being an experience central to their world view-a view almost utterly obscured to ordinary people.Both are also familiar with non identity or selflessness,an egoless state in which forms appear diaphanous and unreal,in which self dissolves into nothingness and in which the world is consumed by emptiness.These are profound similiarities.
The addicts view is also harmful to self and others,while a Buddhist Buddhist view is based upon respect and non-harming,love of everything,Though the addict -like a Buddhist -has apprehended the empty and dissolving nature of reality,they do not use that profound insight to construct an inner world of pure forms founded in love and compassion.
With deeper study of Buddhism,these relate to cause and effect,the nature of mind,desire and aversion and finally impermanence and emptiness.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: DSFriend on December 22, 2012, 09:34:15 AM
I'm curious to know what percentage of the 99% junior monks whom Mr Strassman interviewed are foreigners. I find it very difficult to believe that these junior monks are tibetans, indians or eastern in general  who may have joined the monastery because of strong buddhist roots and culture instead of LCD trip.

Meditation in the west is very much associated to achieving calm abiding, peace and a method to cope with  stress in life...while the purpose of buddhism is actually for achieving enlightenment which in reality, to achieve enlightenment is a tough road and long journey.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Ensapa on December 22, 2012, 12:44:27 PM
I'm curious to know what percentage of the 99% junior monks whom Mr Strassman interviewed are foreigners. I find it very difficult to believe that these junior monks are tibetans, indians or eastern in general  who may have joined the monastery because of strong buddhist roots and culture instead of LCD trip.

Meditation in the west is very much associated to achieving calm abiding, peace and a method to cope with  stress in life...while the purpose of buddhism is actually for achieving enlightenment which in reality, to achieve enlightenment is a tough road and long journey.

Meditation is often misrepresented and misused in the western world as a relaxation tool when it is something that can unlock more potentials of the mind. So meditation is nothing more than a relaxation tool for the westerners. I'd say that the report is actually quite misleading and these days it is not uncommon for scholars who make mistakes in their reports or who have not done enough research about their subject. There isnt anything new about things like these happening around.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Aurore on December 23, 2012, 04:24:11 PM
Also taking drugs, I've been inform by a Dharma teacher pushes open one's chakras, like a force... once these channels are open, it remains open unless someone knows how to close it back... it being open is a gateway for the "formless", inanimate/spirits to actually enter... hence this could cause a person to be posses or their winds may go off and they become koo koo. Now that is a risk we're taking if we're thinking about it.

Thanks for the info. I've always wondered about this as there are people who went "off" made claims that they were not "off" from the drugs but from spirits possession and disturbance after taking drugs. Often people see this as an excuse which drug users use to cover the fact that drugs made them off. No one believes them. Most people will look at it from the medical/scientific point of view. Drug abuse do depletes certain chemicals such as dopamine in the brains and also affects the neurotransmitter which cause a person to go psycho.

Imagine some mental people are sent to psychiatric ward even though it was caused by spirits which are crazy makers and therefore unable to seek proper treatment or spiritual help.

Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Ensapa on December 24, 2012, 12:10:37 PM
Imagine some mental people are sent to psychiatric ward even though it was caused by spirits which are crazy makers and therefore unable to seek proper treatment or spiritual help.

It is not surprising as there are many cases of people who are afflicted with spirits but are sent off to mental institutions and written off as epilepsy because modern medicine only treats and cures based on the symptoms. Also, there is no way to scientifically prove the existence of spirits and thus, it is not accepted by science. I do find the explanation that drugs do mess up with the chakras, because drugs do change the cells in the brain in a physical kind of way.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Rocket on February 27, 2013, 02:50:04 PM
This is an interesting take on the effect of psychedelic drug use on spirituality. Sounds very Chogyam Trungpa to me!....


Dear Kate et al,
Its very well known many westerners including American  buddhist "teachers" and others who are interested in Buddhism had this interest  sparked by psychedelic experiences.  My not extensive experience is there is a lot of "fake it til you make it" going on among American buddhist teachers,   and little actual making it.     Also western religious scholars write whole books ("Do Drugs have Religious Import" was one ... by the venerable Huston Smith) imply the answer can be an emphatic "yes they can."  ONe well known Zen Roshi,  Joan Halifax,  refers to psychedelics as "gateway drugs".  She also writes she knows of no one with a mature meditative practice uses pschedelics as a primary practice.  You best check with her for accuracy on her views,  that is from memory.

From my experience I agree they Roshi Joan Halifax,  can be an important gateway to buddhism,  even life changing  .... with a very big caveat that seems mostly lost in the discussion.

Alan Wallace,  a western Tibetan monk and lifelong  teacher was contacted by the Dalai Lama, summoned to Dharmsala by him,   the DL  requested to become his teacher.  Can you imagine?   The DL taught Alan Shamatha practice and asked him to teach it in the USA.  Alan hates any drug for any reason but is a brilliant scholar (of not just Tibetan Buddhism)   says psychedelics can provide a temporary coarse approximation of a meditative state.  I agree,  from my experiene with both psychedelics and samadhi.   That is the caveat ....  its a coarse approximation only.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Big Uncle on February 28, 2013, 09:58:53 AM
I did hear that drugs could bring us to higher states of consciousness but most of the time, we are not prepared and can invite unnecessary attention from denizens of other realms. Therefore, it would not be good especially if they are malevolent spirits wishing to harm because they themselves are angry and tormented. I think that the best gateway to Buddhism is always through our own practice. Our Lamas and Gurus already had given us plenty of meditational tools in which we can work with to develop inner qualities. On top of that, the drug-state in which LSD and other drugs induce does not allow us any control whatsoever and instead of gaining some sort of mastery over our mind like other Buddhist practice, drug use only lessen our control and in fact, make us addicts to the drug. That's not a Buddhist practice.                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Q on February 28, 2013, 11:58:20 AM
Hmm.. interesting, ok it's not really something foreign though.

It is already well known that even during the ancient times, many tribes' religious men takes a form of intoxication/drugs in order to astral travel. By using these techniques, these tribal people managed to astral travel to get 'advice' on conducting rituals to make it rain etc.

In Buddhism, astral travel is also possible. However, it is done not through taking external substances like LSD, but on single pointed meditation. In that way, this practice within Buddhism is not dangerous physically, and also safe for the practitioner's mind, as they are in control, unlike LSD takers, whom are not in control of the state of mind. Well, the article actually shocked me that they mentioned some Buddhist monks actually take LSD to experience that state, whether that is true or not is still in question though.

So the safety of the practitioner is very important. When we astral travel, there are many beings from different dimensions that can come and take our mind away. Causing us to be lost and unable to return to our physical body. This is a case with LSD takers... sometimes they get lost, and even when they return, their mind is not quite right. There are many scary things that one can see in these different dimensions, and although in modern science they simply classify it as 'hallucination'... we know it is not entirely true.

For Buddhist practitioners, only very advanced practitioner would attempt something like this. With the protection of their Yidam and Dharma Protector, astral travelling will be safe for them. Why? Well, if you're Yamantaka, I highly doubt strange being from a different dimension would want to try to take you away haha...
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Rocket on February 28, 2013, 02:27:44 PM
I did hear that drugs could bring us to higher states of consciousness but most of the time, we are not prepared and can invite unnecessary attention from denizens of other realms. Therefore, it would not be good especially if they are malevolent spirits wishing to harm because they themselves are angry and tormented. I think that the best gateway to Buddhism is always through our own practice. Our Lamas and Gurus already had given us plenty of meditational tools in which we can work with to develop inner qualities. On top of that, the drug-state in which LSD and other drugs induce does not allow us any control whatsoever and instead of gaining some sort of mastery over our mind like other Buddhist practice, drug use only lessen our control and in fact, make us addicts to the drug. That's not a Buddhist practice.                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

True enough, that would  not be buddhist practice. Ive heard something about the Bon religion but don't have first hand knowledge.

My experience is they are two different developmental stages.  Meditation practice requires total focus,  dedication,  total freedom from all substances,  top notch physiological "full power" from great health,  the best possible sleep quality,  life organized around the practice without distraction to marshall every inner resource you can muster. It does require that.  Thus the precepts.  Psychedelics and other things can help to remove obstacles.

Few westerners, since we are so saturated with mental agitation and instability we live with from day one,  are capable of deeper meditative states without some way to rid ourselves of those chronic obstacles,  preliminary practices western style you might say.  My observation is westeners can and do sit on that cushion until blue in the face and go nowhere,  at all,  even with truly qualified instruction and guidance,  which by itself is also not at all common. In my experience great training is rare.  Even native Tibetans do not understand from experiecne the unique obstacles faced by westerners,  ie virulent mental instability,  and solutions to those problems. The meditative practices were designed for people in a totally different epoch and culture.   

LSD like substances and other methods (holotropic breathwork,  psychotherapy, etc)  can assist with  that problem, helping to at times rapidly, clear such obstacles.   I've had considerable experience with both.  I know a psychiatrist and former researcher with experience guiding about 5000 people in LSD sessions,  some of whom were seriously mentally ill to begin with who became well, who never once saw such negative reaction when the "tripper" was appropriately supported.  In fact poorly supervised meditation practice can induce such mental illness too in some people.  It's not really so cut and dried:  meditation = always good,    drugs = always bad.

Shamatha practice is taught to Tibetan monks also but has nothing to do with the religion.  It is mental training strait up.   If you can manage it,  Shamatha takes you directly into Samadhi,   that total quietude and focussed mind.  Quite amazing.   

I spent much of my adult life quieting down these very western style mental states which keep us agitatied and unstable,  ie  that virulent "monkey mind" that will not be still. Then the first weekend I got top notch (there is a big distinction vs poor quality) meditation training I went into Samadhi immediately.  Two years later it was 24/7 and included vipassana and substrate and permanent release from most mental afflictions. 

Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Big Uncle on March 01, 2013, 08:47:06 AM
Hi Rocket,

Haven't see you around before. Thank you for joining us. What you talked about reminds me of the documentary of the experiment the Indian jails did to instill Vipassana meditation upon the inmates. It was met with great success and although this documentary does make it seem to be deceptively easy but I think with perseverance, a lot could be achieved with simple meditational techniques. The Buddha cannot be wrong, it is just how we apply his teachings that can go wrong. Anyway, it is called Doing Time, Doing Vipassana and here's the documentary:-

Doing Time, Doing Vipassana Full (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8tZX3dGSM8#)

Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Manjushri on March 01, 2013, 11:43:44 AM
hehe what a way to come into spirituality! I don't have an experience with this or anything, but if LSD opens one's door to Buddhism, then take away! No, I'm kidding. I don't particularly object or reject this, but I do find it amusing that 99% of the monks interviewed became ordained because they took LSD. Which monastery would this be at? I view ordination as something holy, sacred and pure, and doubt that becoming ordained would be influenced by a drug. If that was it, then the basis of becoming ordained would be wrong. The drug-induced state would blur our control of our mind, when what it teaches you in Buddhism is to have total control over your mind.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: WisdomBeing on March 01, 2013, 11:50:51 AM
Hi Rocket! Thanks for sharing your insightful posts! Welcome to the forum and hope to see more of you :)

Quote
My observation is westeners can and do sit on that cushion until blue in the face and go nowhere,  at all,  even with truly qualified instruction and guidance,  which by itself is also not at all common. In my experience great training is rare.

Could you share more about this? Where are you from? I'm based in London and haven't yet found a teacher though I am still looking and willing to travel. i do agree with the "mental agitation and instability" you mention though. I find it incredibly difficult to meditate, but have always thought that when I find a teacher, he will help me to meditate properly :)

How long have you been practising Buddhism? And are you a Dorje Shugden practitioner?

Look forward to hearing from you.. if you're on facebook, do add me https://www.facebook.com/wisdombeing (https://www.facebook.com/wisdombeing)
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: dsiluvu on March 01, 2013, 07:06:58 PM
Interesting conversations here... LSD and psychedelic experiences... hmmm... I have had a few experiences with LSD... before I met the Dharma and I must admit it is something you do not want to dabble with if you are not with a guide. LSD is a chemical and a man made substance...  it is not anything natural or plant derived like how native American uses Peyote plant for spiritual reasons.

Quote
Under the auspices of what came to be known as the Native American Church, in the 19th century, American Indians in more widespread regions to the north began to use peyote in religious practices, as part of a revival of native spirituality. Its members refer to peyote as "the sacred medicine", and use it to combat spiritual, physical, and other social ills. Concerned about the drug's psychoactive effects, between the 1880s and 1930s, U.S. authorities attempted to ban Native American religious rituals involving peyote, including the Ghost Dance. Today the Native American Church is one among several religious organizations to use peyote as part of its religious practice. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyote[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyote[/url])



Yes it can be pretty psychedelic but I do agree with what Big Uncle say that it "force" opens up your chakras to the subconscious state of mind. Definitely for those who are untrained and do not know how to "protect" themselves, doing it for wrong reasons is not gonna get anywhere except for maybe an invitation to do more drugs and sometimes spiral in to a different zone or you could also be opening up doors inviting the wrong types of beings in to your world. 

I did hear that drugs could bring us to higher states of consciousness but most of the time, we are not prepared and can invite unnecessary attention from denizens of other realms. Therefore, it would not be good especially if they are malevolent spirits wishing to harm because they themselves are angry and tormented. I think that the best gateway to Buddhism is always through our own practice. Our Lamas and Gurus already had given us plenty of meditational tools in which we can work with to develop inner qualities. On top of that, the drug-state in which LSD and other drugs induce does not allow us any control whatsoever and instead of gaining some sort of mastery over our mind like other Buddhist practice, drug use only lessen our control and in fact, make us addicts to the drug. That's not a Buddhist practice.                                                                                                                                                         


I think the "drug" in itself is not negative or positive but it is rather the person who is taking it... for what reasons are they taking it and what do they wish to achieve from it? If you have a proper meditational guide, like a spiritual guide, your Lama, giving you proper practices and blessings to achieve attainments without the need to rely on any drug... then why bother using drugs in the first place? Buddha gain full Enlightenment without any need for drugs. I would discourage it because it is not really necessary unless prescribe by Doctors for health reasons and not to twist it around to use it as a reason to take more drugs... so at the end of the day what is the "motivation" behind taking the "drug" and what's the objective? 
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Rocket on March 01, 2013, 09:04:48 PM
Could you share more about this? Where are you from? I'm based in London and haven't yet found a teacher though I am still looking and willing to travel. i do agree with the "mental agitation and instability" you mention though. I find it incredibly difficult to meditate, but have always thought that when I find a teacher, he will help me to meditate properly :)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eeqqa2sk10h084i/h0iL3P9VPH (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eeqqa2sk10h084i/h0iL3P9VPH)

At this link are mp3 files of a weekend retreat "Lucid Dreaming and Tibetan dream yoga."   Alan Wallace is the teacher.   Sprinkled in among the lucid  dreaming part are the entry level Shamatha practice instruction.  I was present.  Before the end of this weekend I had the most profound single experience of my life ....   a deep trance like level of samadhi.  Two years later,  seven week long retreats with Alan I was in it 24/7,  they call it stream entry. 

There is a caveat ....  this culminated 35 years of work I did getting my mind and psychological emotional turbulance quieted down.  By this time the mental agitation had subsided for me   I   used the technique precisely as explained here.   I never had to ask Alan one question in the 2 to 3 years I followed his instruction and it totally delivered everything,  total fulfillment of everything I ever hoped for and far far more. 

That preparation enabled me to go into it immediately.

I'm near San Francisco.  Alan is currently in retreat,  but he is easilly googlable and will come out and teach all over the world.  He has a retreat center on the island of Phuket,  Thailand.

There is a zenny in Switzerland, Vanja Palmers,   I think he's Austrian.  He has permission from the Swiss gov't to give psylocybin to meditators as a research project.  Hes at a zendo named Felsentor in Switzerland.   If you are too agitated and unstable that might be an interesting experiment.

Psychotherapy,  psychedelic psychotherapy, psychedelics alone if your are the intrepid kind,   holotropic breathwork,  these are all good ways to dig into your psyche,  resolve the disruptive stuff so you can then get deeper with good instruction.  I'm sure there could be other methods too.

My route was to focus on the psychological emotional stuff first,  then meditate after your are able .... in the usual way of total utter focus.      In my opinion being on a psychedelic would lock you out of samadhi if you were not already in it.   It takes total focus on mastering your mind to get it to a deeper deeper space and psychedelics are somewhat destabilizing but they do facilitate dredging up the rotting corpses that cause the agitation.   Then after you are in samadhi you can trip and it will be all the more fun and deep.

Shamatha and samadhi are secular.  Have nothing to do with Buddhism the religion.  Its mental training,  100% pure mental training.  They do teach Tibetan lamas because everything about life goes better with Samadhi.

Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: apprenticehealer on March 02, 2013, 05:10:57 AM
This is a most unusual way of seeking Enlightenment !
However i would not try it or recommend it to anyone in search of a spiritual experience . LSD may give a kick start but how long can one maintain this 'high' feeling , without taking further drugs and without being eventually addicted to it.
One of the 5 precepts in Buddhism is NOT to take intoxicating substances, and to start the journey to Buddhism , one is already contravening one of the main precepts - seems most ironic !!
There is so much danger involved in taking these psychedelic drugs, besides harming and endangering one's physical body, it can also cause harm to one's emotional and mental state. Not to mention that when one is 'high', our channels open and spirits can easily 'enter' and possess the person.
I have heard that there are shamans who goes into trances using various methods like ; the continuous sounds of chanting, drumming, singing and also taking some form of drugs to heighten their consciousness,
but i do wonder what sort of entities are they channeling.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Rocket on March 02, 2013, 01:23:32 PM
This is a most unusual way of seeking Enlightenment !
However i would not try it or recommend it to anyone in search of a spiritual experience . LSD may give a kick start but how long can one maintain this 'high' feeling , without taking further drugs and without being eventually addicted to it.
One of the 5 precepts in Buddhism is NOT to take intoxicating substances, and to start the journey to Buddhism , one is already contravening one of the main precepts - seems most ironic !!
There is so much danger involved in taking these psychedelic drugs, besides harming and endangering one's physical body, it can also cause harm to one's emotional and mental state. Not to mention that when one is 'high', our channels open and spirits can easily 'enter' and possess the person.
I have heard that there are shamans who goes into trances using various methods like ; the continuous sounds of chanting, drumming, singing and also taking some form of drugs to heighten their consciousness,
but i do wonder what sort of entities are they channeling.

You are misinformed in a rather dramatic way.  I suggest doing some sincere research on the things you are commenting about.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Rocket on March 02, 2013, 01:44:37 PM
hehe what a way to come into spirituality! I don't have an experience with this or anything, but if LSD opens one's door to Buddhism, then take away! No, I'm kidding. I don't particularly object or reject this, but I do find it amusing that 99% of the monks interviewed became ordained because they took LSD. Which monastery would this be at? I view ordination as something holy, sacred and pure, and doubt that becoming ordained would be influenced by a drug. If that was it, then the basis of becoming ordained would be wrong. The drug-induced state would blur our control of our mind, when what it teaches you in Buddhism is to have total control over your mind.

Hi
For a better understanding of this topic I suggest reading my post carefully and if you have questions you can get back to me.  I have explained much in my post,  its based on my first hand experience and medical and professional training.  Some of what you have written here is erroneous.
Title: Re: LSD as a Gateway Drug to Buddhism
Post by: Rocket on March 02, 2013, 01:47:37 PM
Interesting conversations here... LSD and psychedelic experiences... hmmm...

No offense but you are not well informed.  The comment for manjushri would be applicable for you too.