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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mana on August 31, 2012, 12:24:28 AM

Title: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Mana on August 31, 2012, 12:24:28 AM


Dear friends,

This was extracted from the FPMT site and it is a forward by Lama Zopa for a compilation of talks by Dalai Lama against Shugden by a Mongolian Monastery.

What do you feel? Do you think people should just let the anti-Shugden issue rest already? Why keep up the schism? Isn't there much more IMPORTANT teachings to translate for the Mongolian public? Why bring up  this undemocratic issue within the spread of Buddhism in Mongolia?

Mana


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Recently Lama Zopa, who was unmistakably recognized by Dorje Shugden (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=20 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=20)),  wrote a foreword for a book speaking against Dorje Shugden, this is taken from the FPMT website:

http://www.fpmt.org/media/newsletters/archives/1024-fpmt-international-office-news-august-2012.html (http://www.fpmt.org/media/newsletters/archives/1024-fpmt-international-office-news-august-2012.html)
Further Advice Regarding Shugden 

Rinpoche recently wrote this foreword in English and Tibetan for a book being published only in Tibetan and Mongolian about Shugden (Dolgyal). The book is a compilation of His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s teachings on Shugden given between 2000 and 2007. The foreword was meant to just be a few pages, but in the end became longer, and is an incredible teaching.

 
Foreword


I am very happy that the monks of Idgaa Choizinling in the Mongolian city of Ulaanbaatar have translated into Mongolian the second book by His Holiness the Dalai Lama advising not to practice Dolgyal. This is good for oneself and others in this life and in all future lives. In order to definitely spread this advice in Mongolia, the former Namgyal Monastery Abbott Kyabje Jhado Rinpoche promised to print this, which is extremely kind.

The Idgaa Choizinling monks thought this would be a very, very special protection for the Mongolian people, as well as for those in other countries, to prevent deep damage and also an offering to His Holiness the Dalai Lama, for the success of His holy wishes. They also felt this would be a protection for individual people as well as for the teachings of Buddha, by keeping the teachings pure.

As I was asked for a foreword by the gekyö of Idgaa Choizinling, in the beginning I mentioned that it would be a few pages long, but it got a bit longer. I hope it is of some benefit to the readers’ minds.

If the Idgaa Choizinling monks didn’t bring this knowledge into Mongolia possibly no one would. So this is very precious and people are extremely lucky to be able to receive this advice from His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

 

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For the world in general and especially for the people of the Snow Land of Tibet to have concordant thinking, without bias, in friendship and like a family in a harmonious relationship that is completely unified as one and to preserve and disseminate the stainless, precious teachings of the Buddha in this world, I, bearing the name of a reincarnation, Thubten Zopa, humbly present, in love and friendship, these honest true facts.

For the benefit of those who do not understand, in order to discover this, please undertake an honest investigation without the stained mind of biased discrimination.

This reliance on Dolgyal, be it by pure Dharma practitioners or by those for business or financial reasons, I wonder if this has not been more harmful than the forceful annexation of Tibet by the Chinese Government and the destruction of the teachings of the Buddha.

We may ask, “Why is this?”

Many of those who rely on Dolgyal have received teachings and initiations in the presence of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and have relied on His Holiness as their most kind Guru (Virtuous Friend). Nevertheless, later they have come to regard His Holiness as an enemy.

As you know very well, if you see your root Guru as an enemy, you have to experience the sufferings of the evil gone realms (lower realms) endlessly.

As it is stated in the Root Tantra of Guhyasamaja: “Even if you accumulate the five most heinous negative karmas (without break of another life), it is still possible to attain the state of a Buddha in this life. But, if you have despised your Guru, it is impossible to attain buddhahood in this life.”

If one belittles or criticizes the Guru, one belittles and criticizes all the Victorious Ones. If one first relies on a Guru and then later makes mistakes in devoting to that person as a Guru it becomes an extremely great loss in ones life, because the Guru is the action of all the Buddhas to subdue oneself. Manifesting as the Guru, the Guru is the form of action of all the Buddhas. Even the teacher who teaches you reading, even that teacher, even if you secretly despise and criticize, then you have criticized or belittled the Guru, and that becomes the same as belittling or criticizing all the tendirections Buddhas. This is from the text The Essential Nectar.

One’s Virtuous Friends are the actions of all the Victorious Ones manifesting as one’s own Guru. Not having respect for them is like not having respect for all the Victorious Ones. There is no heavier ripening aspect result.

After having had the thought “This is my Savior,” one becomes the disciple and then belittling that Guru is the same as having belittled all the Buddhas, and from that one will achieve suffering all the time. For many eons one will not meet with a Virtuous Friend or the precious teachings of the Buddha, and one will be reborn in the inexhaustible hells for many eons and have to experience unfathomable suffering.

Not only that, when one is not a bodhisattva, getting angry at a bodhisattva, even for a second, destroys a thousand eons of roots of virtue, as stated by the great bodhisattva Shantideva:

“Whatever wholesome deeds,
Such as offering to the Buddhas and generosity,
That have been amassed for a thousand eons
Are destroyed by one instant of anger.”

This is in dependence upon the power of the object, which becomes very powerful with a Buddha; even more powerful than this is one’s Guru. Due to this, for many eons one will never meet with a Virtuous Friend and never meet with the teachings of the Buddha as well.

Therefore, relying on Dolgyal is extremely harmful to oneself. I think this is also a great harm to the world in general, as well as to sentient beings and to the teachings of the Buddha.

Dolgyal is one who, in the past, broke samaya (pledges) and made harmful, mistaken prayers to the teachings of our Founder/Teacher: Buddha. This has been stated by one who knows the past and future.

Those who strongly practice Dolgyal eventually end up dying in the most dangerous manner. For example, Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk, learned in scriptures and from the great seat of Sera Me Monastery, who invited the reincarnation of Pabongka Rinpoche to Tibet and made the incarnation take the life-entrusting initiation of Dolgyal and the Heruka Body Mandala from Gonpa Sa Rinpoche. One day when travelling in a vehicle, they came up on a pass and although there were many people in the vehicle, he alone fell out of the window, down the cliff and died.

Again, a business man, Dorje Gyaltsen, who was a very strong practitioner of Dolgyal in secret, when tormented by sickness, he asked his wife to go to the usual place to propitiate Dolgyal. Not having known that he was a daily practitioner of Dolgyal, his wife, although very shocked, had no choice but to comply with his wishes to go and make the tea offering (relying on Dolgyal for the success of actions) on his behalf. Then directly from the mouth of the sick person came the words, “Up until now, Dolgyal has deceived me. I can see the actual ghost form of that vicious one. I have been deceived. I have been mistaken until now. I apologize and confess to my Gurus.”

As he took his last breath, there were great fearful appearances and he died foaming at the mouth with an expression of being strangled. In the end, when his body was taken to the cemetery to be given to the vultures, even the vultures flew away without feeding on his flesh.

The other is the one whose kindness is greater than the Buddhas of the three times, the one whose name is difficult to mention, my great virtuous friend Gen Thubten Yeshe, who was a strong practitioner of Dolgyal. When passing away, before his the last breath, he showed very clearly the expression that Dolgyal was not perfect. This has been my personal experience, from being together at the time of his passing away.

For further information on this please read the letter recently sent from Tibet.

Here you have no one to point a finger at out of biased thoughts of discrimination. For these signs of misery and downfall you can point your finger only at Dolgyal, for these are very clear signs. These are just examples.

The letter from Tibet.

A collection of stories on manifested inauspiciousness in relation to Dolgyal.

In 2007, when visiting relatives in Baa Thang, I accepted an invitation to visit Sangwa Khato in the region of Baa, a town of twenty families. There, I heard directly from the people of the place about the manifested inauspiciousness in relation to Dolgyal.

Ten years ago, for the sake of timely rains and plentiful harvest in the region, they requested Baa Lakha Rinpoche for a divination of the prayers to be undertaken. Rinpoche advised them to build a stupa at a site seen from every direction. The stupa was built on top of a hill, in the upper part of the region. This was struck by a lightning, which destroyed half of it. When the people of the region rebuilt the stupa, again it was struck by a lightning and half destroyed. When they rebuilt it again, before long the stupa on its own became crooked.

At that time Drakara Chophel, who had spent some years living in Drepung Monastery in South India, became suspicious. So he had the inside fillings of the stupa searched and found a thangka painting of Dolgyal. Everybody suspected that this was the cause of it all. Those who identified with this burnt the thangka.

Later, upon further investigation of the Dolgyal thangka, they suspected the old monk Sangwa Kalsang from the area, who in the past was a practitioner of Dolgyal. But then, when His Holiness the Dalai Lama advised a few times about the necessity 4 of stopping the practice, some of them pretended to have stopped the practice. But in reality they had not done so and did the practice in secret. The Dolgyal thangka was placed in the stupa secretly, without the knowledge of the ordained and lay people of the region.

One day this old monk went to the home of a family to do the prayers of dispelling interferences with the ritual cake (torma), but when he went to throw the ritual torma, all of a sudden he lost consciousness and died in a state of inauspiciousness.

For the last six or seven years, since the rebuilding of the stupa, nothing of the sort has happened. The people of the region say in unison that they have had timely rains, good harvests and the whole area has been completely rejuvenated.

In the past, the temple of the town used to have a statue of Dolgyal, which the people of the area had taken outside the walls of the temple and buried within four solid walls. I have destroyed this statue and the walled encasement so that nothing remains of it.

Again, under the jurisdiction of Dho Kham Lithang region in the town of Drarukha, there is a small monastery called Zangcho Dratsang. At this monastery is a monk from Pompora House in Sera Me Monastery, South India, a Dolgyal practitioner by the name of Lobsang Norbu. After attaining a small level geshe degree, he returned to his hometown. Although he had used his title of geshe to become the principal person of the monastery, the ordained and lay people of his hometown did not like Dolgyal practitioners at all. He had also stated that he did not practice Dolgyal. But everyone, beginning with the ex-abbot of the Dratsang, Lama Jamyang, the entire ordained and lay community suspected him of being a practitioner.

To deceive the public and in order to have a huge gathering, one day, he announced the teachings on Maitreya’s Wheel of Dharma. On the day of the actual event, during a break in the sessions, a dog came and broke the hands of some of the statues that had been made from blessed clay. These statues were the holy objects of the temple. There has been such news of inauspiciousness.

Then, before long, lightning struck the monastery, broke the pole holding the victory banner in half and threw it in front of the monastery. After this, one night without any known reasons, the monastery caught on fire. Although the monastery was situated in the middle of the town, nobody noticed the fire. At daybreak, all that remained was the charred ground; everything had been burnt to ashes. There was such inauspiciousness.

These stories of actual events in the past, I offer to the Jewel of our world, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, in support of His Holiness’ strong discouragement of Dolgyal practice and hoping in some small way to help.

Presented with respect and prostrations on the 12th of November, 2011.

Although His Holiness the Dalai Lama did the practice of Dolgyal earlier in his life, after many years of examination he came to the very clear conclusion that this practice is very harmful to the Dharma and sentient beings. His Holiness’ advice not to practice Dolgyal has been greatly criticized and contradicted by some of the highly learned geshes of the main monasteries, who have written many books on this issue and publicized them well.

Recently, due to a highly learned scholar, Jangtse Geshe Gen Drati, criticizing His Holiness over this issue, his monastery staff went before their protector Dharma Raja (Dhamchen Choegyel) and requested an answer sign as to whether it was better to expel the geshe from the monastery or not. When it was answered that it was better to expel him, as the dough ball containing that answer came out, his writings criticizing His Holiness were read before the entire assembly of monks and he was expelled.

This kind of heavy negative karma, which brings the experience of unthinkable, inexpressible suffering for many eons, is mainly due to the mistake of relying on Dolgyal practice.

More kind than all the Buddhas of the three times, Refuge and Protector, Lord of the Victorious Ones, the All Knowing One, the Highly Seeing Sublime One, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, has been prophesied by our Founder, Buddha, the Destroyer Qualified Gone Beyond One. This was prophesied to a close entourage of the bodhisattva whose name was Limitless Supreme Awareness.

Also, from the Guhyasamaja Tantra Treasure, Founder Vajradhara said to the Dharma King Indrabhuti and so forth,

Amongst the limitless entourage of bodhisattvas, listen Limitless Supreme Awareness. You, bodhisattva, are a great founder of transmigrating sentient beings. Until samsara is empty, till then, you will become the holy object of refuge and savior of transmigrators. Especially in the country of Snow Land, you will take birth in a holy body of form to disseminate the teachings of the Three Baskets of Dharma and enjoy benefitting transmigratory beings. Limitless Supreme Awareness, the Snow Land is the place to be subdued by the bodhisattva mahasattva Arya Avalokiteshvara. This region of the Snow Land is the place that will be subdued by you. Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara Limitless Supreme Awareness, in this place you will brightly illuminate the Dharma teachings of the Three Baskets and the unsurpassable Vajra Vehicle.

It has been thus stated.

If I further clarify this sutra quotation, when His Holiness the Dalai Lama visited Geshe Sopa’s center, Deer Park, to give some teachings, one day the staff of the center had an audience with His Holiness. They expressed to His Holiness that His Holiness has stated many times that he himself does not have bodhicitta and the realization of the right view. They said, “If His Holiness does not have the experience of these realizations, then ordinary beings like us don’t have any hope.” At that point, His Holiness, felt unbearable (compassion, not wanting them to lose faith) and it slipped out from his holy mouth that His Holiness did remember that in a past life His Holiness was a bodhisattva in the entourage of the Buddha in the arya land of India. His Holiness gave a very clear answer.

Therefore Tibetans from the Snow Land ought to know that they are unbelievably fortunate. In short, not just Tibetans, in this world many millions of people for eon after eon are led to peace and happiness, liberation and the state of omniscience. His Holiness does unbelievable great activities unlike any other great holy being preserving the teachings of Buddha.

If the Precious Victorious One, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, is not the actual Buddha and Arya Avalokiteshvara, then you can say that in this world there is no emanation of Buddha benefiting sentient beings. In this way bodhicitta and the entire teachings of the Buddha become false. Therefore, practicing Dolgyal and practicing the teachings of the Buddha become contradictory to oneself—one is practicing that which is false by regarding it as truth.

At the great seat of Gomang Monastery College, one great Lama who strongly practiced Dolgyal took the great responsibility and spread the practice. Due to that he broke His Holiness’s advice and became against His Holiness. When he passed away his heart cracked apart into many pieces, his eyeballs came out and so forth. This is just another example.

It is not only His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who after many years of examining, has advised against the practice of Dolgyal. Many others, who are like one sun rising eliminating the darkness in this world, who have done great extensive works for the teachings of Buddha and transmigratory beings, such as Khachen Yeshe Gyeltsen and Thugkyen Losang Chogye Nyima and many other high valid Gelug lamas and so forth, have also advised to stop the practice of Dolgyal. You can understand this if you look in the collections of their teachings. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has put together the advice that those great holy beings have given, and if you want to read them, please request the Private Office for the texts.

There have also been learned geshes and valid lamas who have practiced Dolgyal. For example Kyabje Pabonka Dechen Nyingpo, who did extensive benefit for the teachings of Buddha and transmigratory beings. People believed it was because he practiced Dolgyal that he was able to bring this extensive benefit through his holy actions. But this is a complete hallucination, without examining the facts, and because of it, many people have just practiced Dolgyal with blind faith.

In the past, Kyabje Pabonka Dechen Nyingpo practiced Most Secret Hayagriva, the circle of Dharma from the pure appearance of the Fifth Dalai Lama, but later stopped that practice. One day he told his attendant, “Tomorrow a fat monk will come to see me. Don’t allow him into my room.”

He said this precisely, but the attendant forgot what he said and when the fat monk came the next day, he allowed the monk to go into the room (this was as an obstacle for those not practicing Dolgyal and especially for those practicing Dolgyal). Later, when the attendant entered the room, it seemed the lama was not happy and looked sort of possessed. The thangkas of Most Secret Hayagriva and others had been taken down and the lama had changed in his actions.

But Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Dechen Nyingpo are Buddha. Their practice of Dolgyal is the act of showing ordinary aspect for us. Showing ordinary aspect means showing mistakes. Otherwise there is no other meaning of showing ordinary aspect. Without showing this ordinary aspect for us, there is no method to guide us from samsara. Showing the aspect of having mistakes is what leads us to enlightenment. It is so extremely kind of the Guru to show this; it is like the Guru is giving us skies filled with wish-granting jewels.

Besides this example there are many ways the Guru shows the aspect of having mistakes. For example, showing the aspect of being sick so that we have to explain which foods harm and what not to eat. Another example is when there is no road or if there is a precipice and we have to explain to not go that way. There are many ways the Guru shows having mistakes. When the appearance of mistakes in the actions of the Gurus comes, it is extremely important to use that increase devotion, as this is the cause for oneself to achieve full enlightenment, or to support and increase the Guru devotion that one has generated in one’s own mind without degenerating.

It is mentioned in the tantric text Vajra Tent (Dorje Kur):

In the degenerate time, I, who am called Vajrasattva, will abide in the form of the spiritual master. With the aim of benefitting sentient beings, I will abide in ordinary form.

This is mentioned not only in the tantras but also in the sutras.

Buddha was giving a teaching on an extremely high mountain in the southern direction and at that time the bodhisattva Meaningful to Behold thought: now the Buddha is giving teachings to us, but in the future, after Buddha has passed into the sorrowless state, there will be no one who will give teachings. As he thought this, the Destroyer Qualified Gone Beyond, Guru Shakyamuni Buddha, proclaimed, “Hi, Meaningful to Behold, when the future comes I will abide in the body of the Abbott, I will abide in the form of the Master, and in order to ripen sentient beings I will show birth, old age, disease and death.”

Even the Guru is the actual Buddha, if from one’s own side one does not look at him as the Buddha, then, as it is mentioned in the Kadampa Geshe Potowa’s Blue Pepung, “Even if Manjushri and Chenrezig actually descend in front of you, it won’t benefit you at all, if from your own side you do not look at them as Buddha. You cannot receive any blessings and will not receive profit, only loss.”

Like the story of the Gelong Lekpai Karma, who served Buddha for twenty-two years. In all that time he only looked at the Buddha as a liar, and as a result he was born in the lower realms, the inexhaustible hot hell realms, for eons.

Even if from the Guru’s side he is not Buddha, if from one’s own side one devotes to him as Buddha, one receives only profit and no loss. For example, the old mother actually believed the dog bone was Buddha’s tooth, generated faith, and the blessings of the Buddha’s actual tooth entered and she received Buddha’s relics from the dog bone.

In reality, in this way, the disciple can attain the path and achieve enlightenment before the Guru does and is then able to do perfect works for sentient beings.

Also, the Fifth Dalai Lama mentioned, “To the mind that is hallucinated, the opposite mind, one’s mistakes manifest in the Guru’s actions. Realize that this is one’s own mistake and abandon it like poison.”

So by seeing mistakes in the Guru’s actions, according to the Lama Tsongkhapa tradition, it becomes a support to develop Guru devotion. Please think well on these quotations.

Seeing mistakes in the Guru is like having a black mark on one’s own face and seeing it in a mirror. That is a sign that one’s own face has the black spot, not the reflection.

If the Guru takes poison, we don’t need to also eat poison. We need to examine what this means. Like the peacock, who by eating poison is able to live and become healthier and develop his magnificent color, if you are able to take poison and live, then it’s OK to take poison. If you can transform poison into nectar, you can definitely take it.

AH LA LA LA LA HO
AH HO MAHA SUKHA.

From the teachings of Gyalwa Ensapa:

In short, whether we achieve great or small realization depends on whether we have meditated with great or small devotion. Therefore, may I keep as my heart practice the instruction to reflect only upon the qualities of the kind guru, source of all realizations, and not to look at faults. May I fulfill this commitment without any obstacle.

Until one is free from negative karma and obscurations, even if every single Buddha directly descends in front of you, you would have no fortune to see the supreme holy body, adorned with the holy signs and exemplifications, except this present appearance of the Guru (this means this ordinary appearance). To be able to see one’s own Guru in the supreme holy body adorned with the holy signs and exemplifications, it is said that one needs to achieve the path of great merit of the five Mahayana paths, such as the path of contemplation of continual Dharma and so forth.

In the past some outer beings (non-Buddhists) actually met the Buddha, but they saw him as an ordinary person, not having the pinnacle or even the one fathom of light rays from the holy body or the other holy signs and exemplifications and so forth.

Arya Thogme (Asanga) saw Maitreya Buddha in the form of a female dog whose lower body was covered in wounds and maggots.

Also, Ngagpa Chöpa, the great yogi, and Getsul Tsimbulwa saw the mind-sealed deity Dorje Pagmo as an ordinary lady who had leprosy.

Even the learned and highly attained yogi Naropa, as well as all the human beings in the town, saw the highly attained Tilopa, who was the actual Buddha Vajradhara, as a beggar, burning and eating fish alive.

Do not arise heresy even for one split second in the glorified Guru’s actions.
See whatever actions he does as good.
With this devotion, may the blessings of the Guru enter my heart.

His Holiness does not accept this prayer because the holy minds of Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche and His Holiness are one. It is a teaching that their holy mind is one.

As it is mentioned in the text Calling the Guru from Afar, by Kyabje Dechen Nyingpo,

The wisdom of great bliss of all Buddhas, one taste with the dharmakaya,
Is itself the ultimate nature of all kind lamas.
I beseech you, Lama, dharmakaya,
Please look after me always without separation, in this life, future lives, and the bardo.

This quotation is for people like me, who are extremely ordinary and filled with superstition, full of obscurations and negative karma.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the principal one who holds all the teachings of Buddha and spreads this in the world, therefore it is so important to follow His Holiness’s request.

In this world there are many religions, but our founder, the great kind mighty one, Shakyamuni Buddha, said, “You should examine my teachings well, bhikshus (learned ones), like burning, cutting and rubbing gold. Then take my teachings not just out of faith.”

Therefore, whatever we practice in Buddhism, we must examine it well, just as Buddha has advised, and Buddha gave us the freedom to do this. This is what I am expressing; please understand this.

Therefore, to follow the advice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the omniscient one, this is particularly for oneself and generally for the Tibetans to be harmonious in life, under one constitution and to be in unity.

This is for problems not to arise life to life, for the sun of happiness to rise in the world, for there to be perfect peace and happiness in this world, and for oneself and others to achieve liberation from samsara and the state of omniscience. It is for the stainless teachings of Buddha to spread in this world, and especially for the stainless Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism to increase and not decrease. It is for this reason that His Holiness the Dalai Lama has advised that the practice of Dolgyal stop.

Even though some learned high lamas and geshes saw His Holiness the Dalai Lama as the enemy and criticized His Holiness’s view, still His Holiness’s holy speech and view did not change.

It is mentioned that the subduer of the Snow Land of Tibet is Chenrezig and very clearly explains that Chenrezig not only does the holy action of working for others and not oneself but also has great bodhicitta and powerful compassion. He only does the holy actions of guiding and saving the six types of sentient beings and showing compassion, like all the ten direction buddhas. This is the arya supreme one, Chenrezig.

In the past, when I have met with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, I have expressed, with my big mouth, that myself being a representative, on behalf of the whole world in general and in particular the Tibetan people, that even though the lamas and geshes have criticized His Holiness, such as by writing books against him, still His Holiness has never wavered in advising us to stop the practice of Dolgyal, so for that, from the heart, how unfathomably greatly kind His Holiness is.

By reading this letter if you get upset, then just as the great compassionate Buddha practiced the paramita of patience to the harm-givers, please practice patience and live your life with a happy mind. This is important. Thank you very much.

 

Written by Lama Zopa Rinpoche in Tibetan. Translated by Rinpoche and Ven. Tsen-la. Scribed by Holly Ansett, lightly edited by Nicholas Ribush. Buddha Amitabha Pure Land, July 3–11, 2012. Checked by Lama Zopa Rinpoche.

 

The original article is here: http://www.fpmt.org/images/stories/organization/announcements/shugden/Mongolian_shugden_book_foreword_Engl.pdf (http://www.fpmt.org/images/stories/organization/announcements/shugden/Mongolian_shugden_book_foreword_Engl.pdf)

 

Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on August 31, 2012, 02:11:03 AM
First impression? It does not sound like what Lama Zopa would have wrote. The intonation, the general feeling and the perspective is all not Lama Zopa's. It does not sound like Lama Zopa at all. It sounded more like someone else wrote it and then it was attributed to Lama Zopa. Also, this forward differs greatly on his stance on Dorje Shugden from his previous teachings on him and he has never referred to Dorje Shugden as Dolgyal before: http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=335 (http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=335) the word Dolgyal was not found anywhere. It could also be true that he was referring to another spirit and not Dorje Shugden when writing things, then taken out of context (which happens), but in general, It does not feel like him at all. I dont really believe that Lama Zopa wrote this because it sounds too aggressive. Lama Zopa usually sounds quite calm and passive in his transcripts and writings. So, I dont think this foreword was written by him, probably someone did and attributed to his name and he has to accept it to not offend the CTA, perhaps.

Why Mongolia? I feel that HHDL plans to take leadership of the Gelugs in Mongolia, and the symbol to his control is that they give up Dorje Shugden. think about it -- why only talk about giving up Dorje Shugden ONLY AFTER Jetsun Khalka has passed away? Before this there was rarely any talk of this nature there. Perhaps CTA is trying to exert their influence in Mongolia for whatever reason and decided to go with the Dorje Shugden route as definite proof of the Mongolians' loyalty towards the CTA. Jetsun Khalkha has avery close relationship with the Gelugs, but ironically they banned his first incarnation, Tarantha...

That aside, this does prove that CTA is very desperately trying to get people to be on their side, for then to publish such a book...how sad.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Heartspoon on August 31, 2012, 04:21:22 AM
Oh, how surprising !

Today, my neighbors all met together. They were very excited.
For a very good reason. You see something unheard of happened...
For the very first time, a new form of practice will be available.

It's such an earth-shaking scoop that you had better be seated
before reading on, or I fear someone could accidentally lose the use
of his legs...

Our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community" neighbor
had the extraordinary skill to find for us a new way of practicing Dharma:
 
Using critical thinking is not anymore requested

From now on, if we have any doubt about anything a single answer will
be sufficient for anything thrown our way:

"it's like that" because our 'rich, powerful and much admired by the community'
neighbor said "it's like that".

How surprising ! And Je Tsonkhapa who had to do all those unbelievable practices.
Today, it's incredibly easier, me thinks...

The kids are so happy - Immunity granted

When I came back home, kids were stoning my house.
Nothing special, you know, it happens each time our
"rich, powerful and much admired by the community"
neighbor expounds to them his new system of practice.

Here they all call me the "old-fashioned" one or the one
who refuses to think like all of us.

I tried to speak with the kids, but they laughed out loud.
Our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community"
neighbor granted all of them immunity since they adopted
his new kind of practice.

You see life tremendously changed for them, they are so
happy: from now on, they will not have to face any
consequence for their acts.

Our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community"
neighbor has promised that he will take upon himself all
the karmic consequences of their acts.

If only I could obtain such a deal for myself.
Unbelievable...

Elixir of immortality

Tonight I went again to the woods and I met an old original who spent years alone in solitude.
He wishes to find the Elixir of immortality and searches tirelessly.
He had very big news for me: he doesn't need to search anymore, our "rich, powerful and much
admired by the community" neighbor has found it.

It works like that:

Until now, for the old-fashioned ones,

Bad speech, calumnies directed towards someone are like blessings, long life ceremonies for this person.
Being subjected to them clears obstacles, eliminates bad karma. If one keeps patience while being subjected
to those forms of abuse, it greatly increases the merits and thus contributes to increase one's life span.

Very simple: one doesn't need to ask for them, one doesn't need to pay for them, one doesn't even need
to know that it is happening. In any case he will benefit from it.

So one should really rejoice if he has to exert patience when subjected to harm.

But there is a big problem : of course, the poor being who is doing such deeds is putting himself in exactly the reverse position. Frightening !

From now on,  the new practice of our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community" neighbor:

Thanks to his newly found practice, as his disciples don't have to face the karmic consequences of their
acts, thanks to the immunity graciously granted by our neighbor, logically everyone will benefit from
the forms of abuse mentionned above, the person who is doing the bad deeds as well as the one who is
subjected to harm. Death is old news: now it will be almost impossible to die.

Big problem resolved: this way, he has really found the famed elixir of immortality
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on August 31, 2012, 04:56:21 AM
Oh god. I found a horrible lie in this foreword of his. This is the time where we need scholars such as Trinley Kalsang to check and validate.

Quote
There have also been learned geshes and valid lamas who have practiced Dolgyal. For example Kyabje Pabonka Dechen Nyingpo, who did extensive benefit for the teachings of Buddha and transmigratory beings. People believed it was because he practiced Dolgyal that he was able to bring this extensive benefit through his holy actions. But this is a complete hallucination, without examining the facts, and because of it, many people have just practiced Dolgyal with blind faith.

In the past, Kyabje Pabonka Dechen Nyingpo practiced Most Secret Hayagriva, the circle of Dharma from the pure appearance of the Fifth Dalai Lama, but later stopped that practice. One day he told his attendant, “Tomorrow a fat monk will come to see me. Don’t allow him into my room.”

He said this precisely, but the attendant forgot what he said and when the fat monk came the next day, he allowed the monk to go into the room (this was as an obstacle for those not practicing Dolgyal and especially for those practicing Dolgyal). Later, when the attendant entered the room, it seemed the lama was not happy and looked sort of possessed. The thangkas of Most Secret Hayagriva and others had been taken down and the lama had changed in his actions.
How can Pabongkha Rinpoche be possessed?! what kind of propaganda is this? Pabongkha himself wrote that he voluntarily gave up the Nyingma teachings because he realize it would set a bad example to his students of not focusing on one tradition. HE NEVER BLAMED IT ON DORJE SHUGDEN. Why are so many people twisting his words? This sounds like balooney. Lama Zopa would NEVER show an form of disrespect to Pabongkha Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche and this is just too much and it is very clear that Lama Zopa is not the author of this foreword.

But Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Dechen Nyingpo are Buddha. Their practice of Dolgyal is the act of showing ordinary aspect for us. Showing ordinary aspect means showing mistakes. Otherwise there is no other meaning of showing ordinary aspect. Without showing this ordinary aspect for us, there is no method to guide us from samsara. Showing the aspect of having mistakes is what leads us to enlightenment. It is so extremely kind of the Guru to show this; it is like the Guru is giving us skies filled with wish-granting jewels.
Buddha? you just said Pabongkha Rinpoche was possessed? Can a Buddha be possessed by a spirit? Such crude words being used to refer to the lineage lamas. Again, there is no way this is Lama Zopa's writing. If Gurus show us the ordinary aspect all the time, then what is the difference if we take our friend as our Guru?  Showing the aspect of having mistakes is what leads us to enlightenment...? how exactly does a Guru make mistakes and lead us to enlightenment? Lelung Rinpoche did by having sex with women claiming that they were dakinis, that was clearly a mistake and nobody got enlightened from that. 

Besides this example there are many ways the Guru shows the aspect of having mistakes. For example, showing the aspect of being sick so that we have to explain which foods harm and what not to eat. Another example is when there is no road or if there is a precipice and we have to explain to not go that way. There are many ways the Guru shows having mistakes. When the appearance of mistakes in the actions of the Gurus comes, it is extremely important to use that increase devotion, as this is the cause for oneself to achieve full enlightenment, or to support and increase the Guru devotion that one has generated in one’s own mind without degenerating.
So..your stroke was a mistake? I dont think it is the showing of mistakes, in your explainations, i would like to respectfully disagree. In these cases, it is very clear that the Guru is giving the students a chance to impart information to him so that the students may receive the merits of 'educating' the Guru. It can also be the obscurations from the students' side that cause the Guru to appear to not know.

In any case, Lama Zopa would never say things like that. It is so inconsistent from his previous statement about Pabongkha Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden. No way this was written by him.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Heartspoon on August 31, 2012, 08:35:49 AM
Nowadays, some of HH the Dalai Lama's followers have their own special pride. They claim that HH the Dalai Lama is so superior that they themselves should be considered superior.

HH the Dalai Lama, it is true, is very great, but it does not necessarily follow that one who claims to be among His followers is also great. The greatness of a master depends upon his realization. Blind allegiance to a master cannot make a practitioner superior.

It is common for them to look down on the practitioners of Dorje Shugden, thinking of them
as ignorant practitioners whose practice is not supported by right understanding of the Dharma's true meaning.

Some of them claim that the Dorje Shugden practitioners don't belong anymore to their Gelugpa tradition. Others, go as far as claiming that the Dorje Shugden practitioners are not to be considered as Dharma followers.

These are attitudes commonly found among Tibetan Buddhist monks and lay people.
They may be common attitudes, but they are not Buddhist attitudes.

One who despises another Buddhist school despises the Buddha. He impairs the transmission of the Dharma. The presence of the Dharma is jeopardized by such an attitude, and one becomes cut off from its transmission. This is so because one's refuge vows are based upon reliance on the Enlightened One, His Teachings, and the Holy Community. If one rejects Dharma one breaks one's refuge vow and thereby becomes cut off from the Dharma. By rejecting this Dharma that is the only door to happiness for beings and oneself, one accumulates inexhaustible sin.

Therefore, the Buddha taught that one should also not despise the Dharma of non-Buddhists for it is their source of happiness and benefit. One should not despise or harbour contempt for the doctrines of the Hindus, Christians, or other non-Buddhist religions because this attitude of attachment to one's own side while rejecting the possibility of differences is harmful to one's own spiritual career.

Those people who harbour voiced or unvoiced contempt for the teachings and the lineage of other schools incur great sin and terrible consequences. Worst of all, this attitude is as unnecessary as it is harmful.

One whose Dharma career is tainted by narrow-mindedness and attachment to one's own interests while rejecting those of others will never overcome the many obstacles to the attainment of wisdom or insight.

Sectarianism turns the pure Dharma into poison. Through it, one accumulates great sin. In this life one will be frustrated in one's own Dharma efforts. Upon death, one will fall into hell as swiftly as an arrow shot from a bow. These are the consequences of spending a lifetime in rejecting others' spiritual efforts on such narrow-minded grounds.

Therefore be mindful not to indulge in this attitude that brings so much unsought harm upon yourself. Do not create obstacles to your own Dharma. Strive instead for pure faith and maintain that faith in all manifestations of the Three Jewels, no matter whether they are represented in one school of Tibetan Buddhism or in another. Painstakingly nurture your refuge vows and pure faith and thereby grow truly in the Dharma.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: spikyeddie on August 31, 2012, 04:35:20 PM

Those who strongly practice Dolgyal eventually end up dying in the most dangerous manner. For example, Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk, learned in scriptures and from the great seat of Sera Me Monastery, who invited the reincarnation of Pabongka Rinpoche to Tibet and made the incarnation take the life-entrusting initiation of Dolgyal and the Heruka Body Mandala from Gonpa Sa Rinpoche. One day when travelling in a vehicle, they came up on a pass and although there were many people in the vehicle, he alone fell out of the window, down the cliff and died.

Again, a business man, Dorje Gyaltsen, who was a very strong practitioner of Dolgyal in secret, when tormented by sickness, he asked his wife to go to the usual place to propitiate Dolgyal. Not having known that he was a daily practitioner of Dolgyal, his wife, although very shocked, had no choice but to comply with his wishes to go and make the tea offering (relying on Dolgyal for the success of actions) on his behalf. Then directly from the mouth of the sick person came the words, “Up until now, Dolgyal has deceived me. I can see the actual ghost form of that vicious one. I have been deceived. I have been mistaken until now. I apologize and confess to my Gurus.”

As he took his last breath, there were great fearful appearances and he died foaming at the mouth with an expression of being strangled. In the end, when his body was taken to the cemetery to be given to the vultures, even the vultures flew away without feeding on his flesh.

The other is the one whose kindness is greater than the Buddhas of the three times, the one whose name is difficult to mention, my great virtuous friend Gen Thubten Yeshe, who was a strong practitioner of Dolgyal. When passing away, before his the last breath, he showed very clearly the expression that Dolgyal was not perfect. This has been my personal experience, from being together at the time of his passing away.


If Lama Yeshe has passed away in a dangerous manner, with his mind disturbed, then shouldn't he be reborn in lower realms? But it's unmistaken that his reincarnation, Lama Osel was found. This does not make sense at all.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Losang_Tenpa on September 01, 2012, 04:34:37 AM
Very sad to see Lama Zopa using these types of fear tactics.

It is especially disturbing to see him say negative things about Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk, who was perhaps the greatest living scholar of logic and reasoning. Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk completed a commentary to all four chapters of the text by Dharmakirti called  the Commentary on Valid Perception, a formidable accomplishment since each chapter is practically a separate philosophical classic in its own right. His commentary is over 1000 pages long. This level of scholarship is unparalleled in recent times.

Don't you think that the greatest scholar of logic and reasoning would know the true qualities of Doje Shugden? Of course!!
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Dorje Pakmo on September 01, 2012, 07:10:22 AM
Hmmm…. This is a very cleverly thought out and written piece of work. It may or may not be Lama Zopa’s writing, but it is definitely written to discourage Dorje Shugden’s practice and to highlight the inauspiciousness the will befallen one if one chooses to ignore the advice of HHDL to stop practicing Dorje Shugden.

However, if its Lama Zopa’s writing, then Rinpoche forgot to mention the fact that he himself was recognized as a Tulku through this supreme Protector who he is now writing against. This was the Protector who actually pronounced and installed him as a true incarnation through the Oracle of Dungkar Monastery. If it is true…. Then what happened? Then this also creates doubt as of whether Rinpoche himself is a true incarnation or NOT? So weird…..
There are so many contradictions and doubts that arise from Rinpoche’s writing.

Quote
There have also been learned geshes and valid lamas who have practiced Dolgyal. For example Kyabje Pabonka Dechen Nyingpo, who did extensive benefit for the teachings of Buddha and transmigratory beings. People believed it was because he practiced Dolgyal that he was able to bring this extensive benefit through his holy actions. But this is a complete hallucination, without examining the facts, and because of it, many people have just practiced Dolgyal with blind faith.

In the past, Kyabje Pabonka Dechen Nyingpo practiced Most Secret Hayagriva, the circle of Dharma from the pure appearance of the Fifth Dalai Lama, but later stopped that practice. One day he told his attendant, “Tomorrow a fat monk will come to see me. Don’t allow him into my room.”

He said this precisely, but the attendant forgot what he said and when the fat monk came the next day, he allowed the monk to go into the room (this was as an obstacle for those not practicing Dolgyal and especially for those practicing Dolgyal). Later, when the attendant entered the room, it seemed the lama was not happy and looked sort of possessed. The thangkas of Most Secret Hayagriva and others had been taken down and the lama had changed in his actions.

But Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Dechen Nyingpo are Buddha. Their practice of Dolgyal is the act of showing ordinary aspect for us. Showing ordinary aspect means showing mistakes. Otherwise there is no other meaning of showing ordinary aspect. Without showing this ordinary aspect for us, there is no method to guide us from samsara. Showing the aspect of having mistakes is what leads us to enlightenment. It is so extremely kind of the Guru to show this; it is like the Guru is giving us skies filled with wish-granting jewels.

Besides this example there are many ways the Guru shows the aspect of having mistakes. For example, showing the aspect of being sick so that we have to explain which foods harm and what not to eat. Another example is when there is no road or if there is a precipice and we have to explain to not go that way. There are many ways the Guru shows having mistakes. When the appearance of mistakes in the actions of the Gurus comes, it is extremely important to use that increase devotion, as this is the cause for oneself to achieve full enlightenment, or to support and increase the Guru devotion that one has generated in one’s own mind without degenerating.

What exactly did the above words mean? Is it hinting that because Kyabje Pabongka stopped practicing the Most Secret Hayagriva hence got possessed by an evil spirit? And then continued to teach the Dharma to his students and gave initiations and practice of this evil spirit to his students knowingly that the practice is going to do harm and cause inauspiciousness?

And then continued to say that Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche is Buddha and they are manifesting faults out of kindness to guide us out of Samsara? Oh… How can that be? The Buddha teaching his disciples to propitiate to an evil spirit because they are kind and wanted to show their ordinary aspect, that they do make mistakes too?

Come on! It just doesn’t make any sense….

Quote
When the appearance of mistakes in the actions of the Gurus comes, it is extremely important to use that increase devotion, as this is the cause for oneself to achieve full enlightenment, or to support and increase the Guru devotion that one has generated in one’s own mind without degenerating.

The students who have received any form of teachings from his / her kind Guru will hold them so dearly that they will never give it up no matter what. That is true Guru Devotion and trust that the Guru will only have the best interest for his students and nothing else! What else need to be said if the teaching was taught down by the Holy Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche? 

It is cleverly written to twist the whole story around but without much facts and truth to back it up other than some horror stories of grotesquely Dorje Shugden’s practitioners will end up if they continue on his Holy practice, because HHDL said so.

At the end of the writing, it is ended with,

Quote
By reading this letter if you get upset, then just as the great compassionate Buddha practiced the paramita of patience to the harm-givers, please practice patience and live your life with a happy mind. This is important. Thank you very much.
I personally think, if this letter was in fact written by Lama Zopa Rinpoche, then he is again highlighting how absurd the anti Shugden campaign can be! And that all Shugden practitioners should read this letter over and over again to generate greater faith and not let simple and unfounded words sway or misguide us. Do forgive those who speak against or harm us, the TRUTH will prevail.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on September 01, 2012, 08:43:09 AM
Very sad to see Lama Zopa using these types of fear tactics.

It is especially disturbing to see him say negative things about Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk, who was perhaps the greatest living scholar of logic and reasoning. Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk completed a commentary to all four chapters of the text by Dharmakirti called  the Commentary on Valid Perception, a formidable accomplishment since each chapter is practically a separate philosophical classic in its own right. His commentary is over 1000 pages long. This level of scholarship is unparalleled in recent times.
I find it equally disturbing on how did a car accident got blamed to Dorje Shugden. This is ridiculous. So does this mean that we can blame AIDS and cancer and natural disasters on Dorje Shugden also? Why not go to as far as blaming Lama Yeshe's cancer on Dorje Shugden and Lama Zopa's stroke on him as well? Why not blame Dalai Lama's need for glasses as a result of Dorje Shugden? Ridiculous indeed. What is more surprising is how supposedly modern people can believe in such things. This is how Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk died:
Quote
Ten days before Dungkar Rinpoche died, the famous religious teacher Geshe Yeshe
Wangchuk was killed in a car accident in Kongpo. The 69-year old Geshe - the Tibetan
title equivalent to a Doctor of Divinity - was vice chairman of the Tibetan branch of the
Chinese Buddhist Association. Originally from a Tibetan area of north Yunnan, he joined Sera monastery at the age of 16, one year before the Chinese invasion, and later spent a
year in prison. In 1986 he became the first person to be awarded the degree of Geshe
Lharampa since 1959, and was regarded as one of the key remaining religious leaders in
Tibet. He visited India in 1982 and was reportedly persuaded to return to continue his
teachings in Tibet by the Dalai Lama.
What window? How can a person fall out of a car window? I do not see the logic. Can you?
Don't you think that the greatest scholar of logic and reasoning would know the true qualities of Doje Shugden? Of course!!

The author of this article has much hatred for the Gelugs. It cannot be Lama Zopa because he has high regard for Gelugpa unless he was sent into a 'retreat' which is actually a brainwashing camp to make him hate Dorje Shugden as his enemy and after he came out from it he resented Gelug and wrote this foreword. As I have pointed out in my previous post, the way he talked about things is radically different.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Zach on September 01, 2012, 08:54:01 AM
This is pretty ridiculous if this is written by Lama Zopa. why use the same holy teacher Je Pabongkha to make the point that the practice was both wrong and later on praise Je Pabongkhas exposition on a particular work in order to support the Dalai lama's equally ridiculous and non historically credible stories.

As said previously Lama Zopa's earlier statements and advise as found in the Lama Yeshe Wisdom archive do not actually match what is being said here so it is fairly safe to assume that if this is not a deliberate mistranslation or falsehood then Lama Zopa will have been receiving  some very sever coercion  from the private office of the Dalai lama as a result of people having directed others to Lama Zopa's rather neutral and reasonable advise on Dorje Shugden which was maybe why it was buried fairly deeply in the Lama Yeshe Wisdom archive to begin with.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on September 01, 2012, 09:11:49 AM
This is pretty ridiculous if this is written by Lama Zopa. why use the same holy teacher Je Pabongkha to make the point that the practice was both wrong and later on praise Je Pabongkhas exposition on a particular work in order to support the Dalai lama's equally ridiculous and non historically credible stories.

As said previously Lama Zopa's earlier statements and advise as found in the Lama Yeshe Wisdom archive do not actually match what is being said here so it is fairly safe to assume that if this is not a deliberate mistranslation or falsehood then Lama Zopa will have been receiving  some very sever coercion  from the private office of the Dalai lama as a result of people having directed others to Lama Zopa's rather neutral and reasonable advise on Dorje Shugden which was maybe why it was buried fairly deeply in the Lama Yeshe Wisdom archive to begin with.

Without a doubt, this was written by someone else and attributed to Lama Zopa against his will to prove his support towards CTA. CTA hates Pabongkha Rinpoche from the start, since he was known as Chankya Rolpa Dorje. All of their materials express explicit hate for Pabongkha Rinpoche and people who side with the CTA hate Pabongkha Rinpoche for the same reason. No other Gelug Lama would dare to write such a thing against Pabongkha Rinpoche at all. Lama Zopa has always been extremely respectful to the lineage lamas and there is no way he could write something like that. The foreword does contain his talking style, as it matches some of his other teachings, but the content itself was extremely off compared to his older teachings. To me, no matter how many times I read it, I dont feel like it was written by Lama Zopa, but by someone who tries to write in Lama Zopa's style while championing the ban and then attributing it to him.

Also, Lama Zopa has suffered a stroke and how could he have written the foreword with his own hands? CTA must be extremely desperate to garner support to use Lama Zopa's name and to have to do a rain check on mongolia to see who is on their side and who is on the side of the Lineage Lamas. Extremely sneaky of them to wait until Jetsun Khalka has passed away before doing this.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Big Uncle on September 01, 2012, 09:29:14 AM
You know what? It doesn't matter that it was not written by Lama Zopa, it would have been written by an attendant but the fact that it does bear Lama Zopa's name and it was not contested says a lot. However, I too do not believe that Lama Zopa would say such things about Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden.

If you read his prior writings on Dorje Shugden, Lama Zopa writes vaguely and tells people not to denigrate the lineage Lamas like Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and he says not to put down Dorje Shugden but encourages people not to practice Dorje Shugden because of the Dalai Lama's qualities and not what he said about Dorje Shugden. That sounds more like Lama Zopa than this foreword.

It is sad that more of such books are being proliferated in the Mongolian speaking world where Dorje Shugden is relatively strong and the ban has not really penetrated.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Zach on September 01, 2012, 09:42:20 AM
This is pretty ridiculous if this is written by Lama Zopa. why use the same holy teacher Je Pabongkha to make the point that the practice was both wrong and later on praise Je Pabongkhas exposition on a particular work in order to support the Dalai lama's equally ridiculous and non historically credible stories.

As said previously Lama Zopa's earlier statements and advise as found in the Lama Yeshe Wisdom archive do not actually match what is being said here so it is fairly safe to assume that if this is not a deliberate mistranslation or falsehood then Lama Zopa will have been receiving  some very sever coercion  from the private office of the Dalai lama as a result of people having directed others to Lama Zopa's rather neutral and reasonable advise on Dorje Shugden which was maybe why it was buried fairly deeply in the Lama Yeshe Wisdom archive to begin with.

Without a doubt, this was written by someone else and attributed to Lama Zopa against his will to prove his support towards CTA. CTA hates Pabongkha Rinpoche from the start, since he was known as Chankya Rolpa Dorje. All of their materials express explicit hate for Pabongkha Rinpoche and people who side with the CTA hate Pabongkha Rinpoche for the same reason. No other Gelug Lama would dare to write such a thing against Pabongkha Rinpoche at all. Lama Zopa has always been extremely respectful to the lineage lamas and there is no way he could write something like that. The foreword does contain his talking style, as it matches some of his other teachings, but the content itself was extremely off compared to his older teachings. To me, no matter how many times I read it, I dont feel like it was written by Lama Zopa, but by someone who tries to write in Lama Zopa's style while championing the ban and then attributing it to him.

Also, Lama Zopa has suffered a stroke and how could he have written the foreword with his own hands? CTA must be extremely desperate to garner support to use Lama Zopa's name and to have to do a rain check on mongolia to see who is on their side and who is on the side of the Lineage Lamas. Extremely sneaky of them to wait until Jetsun Khalka has passed away before doing this.

Very much so.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on September 01, 2012, 01:15:50 PM
You know what? It doesn't matter that it was not written by Lama Zopa, it would have been written by an attendant but the fact that it does bear Lama Zopa's name and it was not contested says a lot. However, I too do not believe that Lama Zopa would say such things about Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden.
Perhaps at this moment it cannot be contested, probably because the CTA is threatening Lama Zopa or something. They have done it before in the past to other Lamas, such as Trijang Rinpoche and they will do it again to other Lamas. Lama Zopa is too big already and he has no choice but to comply or risk the spiritual well being of his students in FPMT centers. this is what it looks like anyway.

If you read his prior writings on Dorje Shugden, Lama Zopa writes vaguely and tells people not to denigrate the lineage Lamas like Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and he says not to put down Dorje Shugden but encourages people not to practice Dorje Shugden because of the Dalai Lama's qualities and not what he said about Dorje Shugden. That sounds more like Lama Zopa than this foreword.
This foreword appears to be very inconsistent with the rest of his teachings and what he stood for. It is horrible that CTA would resort to this just to garner more support. I wonder what kind of negative karma will they gain from this and how it would eventually dissolve them into just a bunch of settlements in India with no government at all. Self destructive behavior at its finest.

It is sad that more of such books are being proliferated in the Mongolian speaking world where Dorje Shugden is relatively strong and the ban has not really penetrated.
Has anyone noticed that CTA and HHDL did not dare to touch mongolia while Jetsun Khalka was still alive? Jetsun Khalka is a strong Dorje Shugden practitioner and he would be enraged at this move of wanting to ban Dorje Shugden. The only reason why CTA wants to do this is to test and see how many mongolians would pledge their loyalty to HHDL and to CTA. BTW, in one of his previous incarnations, Jetsun Khalka merged Gelug and Nyingma practices together. No punishment from Dorje Shugden. I wonder why. hmmm.

I wonder tho how many people will realize that it was not really written by Lama Zopa and start demanding answers? or they will just accept it blindly as usual? hmm.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: kris on September 01, 2012, 01:37:09 PM
I am confused... The article started by saying that if we despise or criticize our Guru, then the bad karma is very heavy and very bad. So, if my Guru who is very kind and compassionate and He teaches me Dorje Shugden, then what should I do? Despise Him and get the bad karma? I know HH Dalai Lama is very famous, but He has never come to my country before and has never taught me any Dharma, but my Guru has taught me Dharma etc. How can I despise my Guru just because of what HH Dalai Lama said??
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on September 01, 2012, 02:55:41 PM
I am confused... The article started by saying that if we despise or criticize our Guru, then the bad karma is very heavy and very bad. So, if my Guru who is very kind and compassionate and He teaches me Dorje Shugden, then what should I do? Despise Him and get the bad karma? I know HH Dalai Lama is very famous, but He has never come to my country before and has never taught me any Dharma, but my Guru has taught me Dharma etc. How can I despise my Guru just because of what HH Dalai Lama said??

You know, surprisingly, this article does introduce a new way of Guru devotion as the Dalai Lama has introduced (probably as a way to cope with the trauma of losing Reting Rinpoche with an untrue scandal that was believed to be true by everyone at that time): seeing that your teacher really has made a mistake to teach us and that it is ok for our teacher to make mistakes.

Quote
But Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Dechen Nyingpo are Buddha. Their practice of Dolgyal is the act of showing ordinary aspect for us. Showing ordinary aspect means showing mistakes. Otherwise there is no other meaning of showing ordinary aspect. Without showing this ordinary aspect for us, there is no method to guide us from samsara. Showing the aspect of having mistakes is what leads us to enlightenment. It is so extremely kind of the Guru to show this; it is like the Guru is giving us skies filled with wish-granting jewels.

Besides this example there are many ways the Guru shows the aspect of having mistakes. For example, showing the aspect of being sick so that we have to explain which foods harm and what not to eat. Another example is when there is no road or if there is a precipice and we have to explain to not go that way. There are many ways the Guru shows having mistakes. When the appearance of mistakes in the actions of the Gurus comes, it is extremely important to use that increase devotion, as this is the cause for oneself to achieve full enlightenment, or to support and increase the Guru devotion that one has generated in one’s own mind without degenerating.

So, our teachers practicing Dorje Shugden is showing us that they are making mistakes...then why is it that Lamas that has abandoned Dorje Shugden often dont make it or become very low profile? Surely NOT practicing Dorje Shugden IS the mistake.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: dsiluvu on September 01, 2012, 05:27:13 PM
Quote
In the past, Kyabje Pabonka Dechen Nyingpo practiced Most Secret Hayagriva, the circle of Dharma from the pure appearance of the Fifth Dalai Lama, but later stopped that practice. One day he told his attendant, “Tomorrow a fat monk will come to see me. Don’t allow him into my room.”

He said this precisely, but the attendant forgot what he said and when the fat monk came the next day, he allowed the monk to go into the room (this was as an obstacle for those not practicing Dolgyal and especially for those practicing Dolgyal). Later, when the attendant entered the room, it seemed the lama was not happy and looked sort of possessed. The thangkas of Most Secret Hayagriva and others had been taken down and the lama had changed in his actions.

How can Pabongkha Rinpoche be possessed?! what kind of propaganda is this? Pabongkha himself wrote that he voluntarily gave up the Nyingma teachings because he realize it would set a bad example to his students of not focusing on one tradition. HE NEVER BLAMED IT ON DORJE SHUGDEN. Why are so many people twisting his words? This sounds like balooney. Lama Zopa would NEVER show an form of disrespect to Pabongkha Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche and this is just too much and it is very clear that Lama Zopa is not the author of this foreword.

But Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Dechen Nyingpo are Buddha. Their practice of Dolgyal is the act of showing ordinary aspect for us. Showing ordinary aspect means showing mistakes. Otherwise there is no other meaning of showing ordinary aspect. Without showing this ordinary aspect for us, there is no method to guide us from samsara. Showing the aspect of having mistakes is what leads us to enlightenment. It is so extremely kind of the Guru to show this; it is like the Guru is giving us skies filled with wish-granting jewels.

Buddha? you just said Pabongkha Rinpoche was possessed? Can a Buddha be possessed by a spirit? Such crude words being used to refer to the lineage lamas. Again, there is no way this is Lama Zopa's writing. If Gurus show us the ordinary aspect all the time, then what is the difference if we take our friend as our Guru?  Showing the aspect of having mistakes is what leads us to enlightenment...? how exactly does a Guru make mistakes and lead us to enlightenment? Lelung Rinpoche did by having sex with women claiming that they were dakinis, that was clearly a mistake and nobody got enlightened from that.

Besides this example there are many ways the Guru shows the aspect of having mistakes. For example, showing the aspect of being sick so that we have to explain which foods harm and what not to eat. Another example is when there is no road or if there is a precipice and we have to explain to not go that way. There are many ways the Guru shows having mistakes. When the appearance of mistakes in the actions of the Gurus comes, it is extremely important to use that increase devotion, as this is the cause for oneself to achieve full enlightenment, or to support and increase the Guru devotion that one has generated in one’s own mind without degenerating.

On that NOTE above... then we can conclude that this whole forward is a HUGE MISTAKE :) Sure sounds like a MISTAKE! Surely if Je Pabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche, Lineage Gurus of Lama Zopa can make mistakes, so can Lama Zopa etc etc etc... it will never end... and in the end... what's the point in having any Guru or believe in any Guru for that matter. It started with HHDL claiming He made a mistake practicing Dorje Shugden and now Lama Zopa saying all this with a rather funny unlike Lama Zopa tone... and again bringing up the tendencies of Great Attained Masters making mistakes.... so this then says all this bogus story is probably a mistake. And perhaps it is just waiting for us to write a respond to these illogical mistake to make it EVEN CLEARER!

I don't think a highly attained Lama like Je Pabongkha can be possessed by any ol spirit... if that is possible, why take refuge in the 3 jewels? Can we get a better story? It seems like a huge slap back on to all the Lamas, Gurus, Buddhas faces!!! Hilarious!

You see if you deny and say someone like Je Pabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche makes mistakes hence their teachings will also be tainted and have mistakes, hence they are saying their teachings has no blessings, no attainments can be achieved from what ever they teach us... so if that is the case then all of our Lineage masters teachings would also be at fault no? And if that is so then why bother... the whole entire Gelug teachings would literally be at fault, no? Might as well close down all the monasteries.... oh dear.



   
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: lotus1 on September 01, 2012, 07:18:28 PM
Again… this foreword is very contradicting to how compassion Lama Zopa is known of. From one of his quotes “What differentiates Buddhism from other religions is COMPASSION for every single sentient being.” If Lama Zopa is compassion to every single sentient being, he would not harm anyone or create schism no matter whether he/she is having the same religion opinion with him or not.

The foreword content is contracting.
1.   The earlier part it is saying how important is Guru devotions and to follow the Guru’s instruction. However, Lama Zopa &  HH Dalai Lama is not following what their teachers taught them on Dorje Shugden.
2.   It is mentioned that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche made mistakes. This is illogical. High lama maybe using various skillful way to teach their students but normally it is only limited to the worldly related aspects eg being ill or showing anger. However, for spiritual practice, they are very serious and all the teachings that they passed down, the lineage will be mentioned to show the authenticity of the teachings. Therefore, high attained lama such as Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche will surely not making a mistake in their spiritual practice of Lord Dorje Shugden. Dalai Lama also gives exception and allows the current reincarnation of Trijang Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden. (Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWi1fJkTA9Q#)) Is he making a mistake again?

Therefore, I believe the foreword is written by someone else. If it is by Lama Zopa, then he is doing it for the big picture of spreading Dorje Shugden in long run.

Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Tenzin Gyatso on September 02, 2012, 01:35:49 AM
I feel Lama Zopa has realized the extent of the damage Shugden has done. And perhaps he also sees there are still pockets of people caught under the spell of ignorance and harming themselves by continuing their Shugden rituals. Out of compassion for them, he is speaking up stronger.  ;)

After all, Lama Zopa until now has no reputation of harming anyone or speaking falsely, so why would he start now?
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: beggar on September 02, 2012, 06:25:59 AM
I feel Lama Zopa has realized the extent of the damage Shugden has done. And perhaps he also sees there are still pockets of people caught under the spell of ignorance and harming themselves by continuing their Shugden rituals. Out of compassion for them, he is speaking up stronger.  ;)

After all, Lama Zopa until now has no reputation of harming anyone or speaking falsely, so why would he start now?

If you read between the lines, you'll notice that there are many levels that Lama Zopa writes on in this foreword. What may apply to a student of the Dalai Lama will be a completely different message for someone who is NOT the Dalai Lama's student - just as Kris has already pointed out.

There are mixed messages within his foreword, which is perhaps done deliberately. I find it surprising that Lama Zopa writes in such strong tones about this subject, when he has previously maintained a very neutral stance about the Shugden issue. Why the sudden change of heart or tone? I believe that Lama Zopa, being as highly attained as he is, wouldn't write something arbitrarily but with strong, focused and ultimately beneficial intentions. I believe that in this case, he has opened different avenues for debate and thought, and that we shouldn't just take what he has said at face value. How kind he is, actually, to make us, and his students, think deeper, not only about the Shugden issue but about that very profound aspect of Guru devotion.

A few examples of his "contradictions":

- If there is a possibility that our lamas manifest mistakes (such as Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche), then isn't it possible that the Dalai Lama himself is manifesting a mistake with this ban? Everything that Lama Zopa explains about a Lama manifesting ordinary aspects and mistakes could very well be applied to the Dalai Lama himself, couldn't it?!

- He mentions pointedly several times that the Dalai Lama is unquestionably Chenrezig. In this case, would Chenrezig really make a mistake? Or even manifest a mistake at the expense of so many people being hurt?

- He mentions towards the end that we must examine the teachings for ourselves. If we should just have respect and follow what the Dalai Lama tells us to do, then why even examine?

- As Kris has already pointed out - Lama Zopa talks about how detrimental it is to have negative thoughts or doubts towards our Guru. So what if our Guru was NOT the Dalai Lama, but a Lama who has given us Dorje Shugden's practice? Would his advice not apply either in this case? And wouldn't that student of that other Lama also suffer the same karmic consequences if he had negative thoughts towards his teacher and abandoned the practices given to him?

So is Lama Zopa being contrary and fickle? Or does this actually intentionally open up more room for debate, questioning and contemplation upon the Shugden issue? What would the Dalai Lama's real intentions be then? If we were supposed to just NOT do the practice, then JUST DON'T DO IT. Why write long forewords explaining why we shouldn't, give speeches, compile books etc. If the Dalai Lama was Chenrezig and we should respect him so, as Lama Zopa says, then shouldn't we just leave aside all this discussion and just follow his advice?

Why keep talking about it? Or is that the very point?
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on September 02, 2012, 08:23:11 AM

On that NOTE above... then we can conclude that this whole forward is a HUGE MISTAKE :) Sure sounds like a MISTAKE! Surely if Je Pabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche, Lineage Gurus of Lama Zopa can make mistakes, so can Lama Zopa etc etc etc... it will never end... and in the end... what's the point in having any Guru or believe in any Guru for that matter. It started with HHDL claiming He made a mistake practicing Dorje Shugden and now Lama Zopa saying all this with a rather funny unlike Lama Zopa tone... and again bringing up the tendencies of Great Attained Masters making mistakes.... so this then says all this bogus story is probably a mistake. And perhaps it is just waiting for us to write a respond to these illogical mistake to make it EVEN CLEARER!
Let's just put it this way: why must it be that Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche the ones that made mistakes? cant it be that the Dalai Lama has made a mistake in his judgement about Dorje Shugden? If he can say that Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche can make mistakes and is still holy, why cant Dalai Lama make a mistake with implementing the ban that was not supposed to be? But it does not change his attainments nor our respect for him? Why cant the mistake card be played the other way?

I don't think a highly attained Lama like Je Pabongkha can be possessed by any ol spirit... if that is possible, why take refuge in the 3 jewels? Can we get a better story? It seems like a huge slap back on to all the Lamas, Gurus, Buddhas faces!!! Hilarious!
If a high Lama such as Pabongkha Rinpoche can have such a reaction, then does it mean that  he is not attained as his mind is not that stable after all? how can this be logical that he had such a reaction? But to go as far as say that he looked possessed is way too much to say about a core Gelug lineage master who has given birth to all of the Gelugpa masters of this generation.

You see if you deny and say someone like Je Pabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche makes mistakes hence their teachings will also be tainted and have mistakes, hence they are saying their teachings has no blessings, no attainments can be achieved from what ever they teach us... so if that is the case then all of our Lineage masters teachings would also be at fault no? And if that is so then why bother... the whole entire Gelug teachings would literally be at fault, no? Might as well close down all the monasteries.... oh dear.
Lama Zopa says that they making mistakes is showing us their ordinary aspect....well how are we supposed to know what is an ordinary aspect or not? So are the initiations an ordinary aspect as well? teachings? I dont understand and how can we tell which is an ordinary aspect or not? How many of us can tell which is the Guru's "ordinary aspect" and learn from it? i dont think many of us can. If we cannot, what is the point of the Guru showing us this?

 

No matter what, I still find these points somewhat ridiculous and it is hard for me to accept or reason out. It sounds more like an excuse to say that the ban is valid. I am not really buying it...it takes more than that to convince me. By more, I mean if my Lama told me to stop.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: shugdenpromoter on September 02, 2012, 08:48:12 AM
Lama Zopa can say or write whatever he wants. People who has at least an ounce of intelligent will not be fooled by the statements he made.

I remembered once a group of monks in Nepal has said Lama Zopa does Shugden puja quite often, some of his students told me before that they have been invited to join the puja.

Whatever it is, I do know for the fact that Lama Zopa is extremely devoted to Lama Yeshe. Lama Yeshe a big practitioner of Shugden and his personal Shugden statue is now in Gangchen Ladrang. See this article below

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-dorje-shugden-statue-that-was-in-kopan-monastery-nepal/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-dorje-shugden-statue-that-was-in-kopan-monastery-nepal/)
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on September 02, 2012, 09:38:56 AM
Lama Zopa can say or write whatever he wants. People who has at least an ounce of intelligent will not be fooled by the statements he made.
If people in FPMT turned against Dorje Shugden to follow the Dalai Lama's lead and forget completely that it was Lama Yeshe's root practice and even got rid of Lama Yeshe's students, and dont even know who Dorje Shugden really is and went against him, what do you think when they read this foreword? I doubt that many people would be able to look deeper and just take it as face value.

I remembered once a group of monks in Nepal has said Lama Zopa does Shugden puja quite often, some of his students told me before that they have been invited to join the puja.
I feel like finding out more of this story, and perhaps a photo, and printing posters of it and sticking it to FPMT centers everywhere and tell them to LEAVE THE DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS AND LAMAS ALONE if they dont like us..they can always leave us alone and dont publish nasty statements on newspapers...

Whatever it is, I do know for the fact that Lama Zopa is extremely devoted to Lama Yeshe. Lama Yeshe a big practitioner of Shugden and his personal Shugden statue is now in Gangchen Ladrang. See this article below

[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-dorje-shugden-statue-that-was-in-kopan-monastery-nepal/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-dorje-shugden-statue-that-was-in-kopan-monastery-nepal/[/url])
If Lama Zopa had no Guru devotion, Would FPMT grow? Would his students grow? would he be such a high lama? I doubt it. I find that this foreword differs greatly from other works. Not written by him. period.


As far as intelligence goes...i doubt many people will have to discern what is right or wrong. Nowadays, people find it easier to believe in stories rather than cold, hard facts. Sigh.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Barzin on September 02, 2012, 06:06:03 PM
I think we are not seeing the whole picture here.  I don't think any high lama would openly criticize one's gurus and lineage like that, even if he meant it i would still choose to believe there are bigger reason than just mere criticism.  If a lama is petty like that to criticize one's practice, lineage and guru then how is it possible to give teachings to thousands if his mind is as petty as what he says.  Unless this is the broken samaya of the students who caused Lama Zopa to manifest this way, I do not know whether is possible.  But because of broken samaya, the lama can manifest in some other ways that is very unpredictable in order for the dharma to reach out to other audience because of the current students do not have the merits to receive the teachings.  We are talking about Lama Zopa here, I still have hope and faith that such an elite master will have his wisdom to accompany his wisdom?  Maybe this will be the ultimate stir in the BUddhism world because the ban is slowly remove?  Only time will tell.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: thor on September 02, 2012, 07:58:26 PM
I am incredulous upon reading some of the key points in Lama Zopa's forward. Any beginner in debate could see through these flimsy arguments:

Quote
This reliance on Dolgyal, be it by pure Dharma practitioners or by those for business or financial reasons, I wonder if this has not been more harmful than the forceful annexation of Tibet by the Chinese Government and the destruction of the teachings of the Buddha.

We may ask, “Why is this?”

Many of those who rely on Dolgyal have received teachings and initiations in the presence of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and have relied on His Holiness as their most kind Guru (Virtuous Friend). Nevertheless, later they have come to regard His Holiness as an enemy.

As you know very well, if you see your root Guru as an enemy, you have to experience the sufferings of the evil gone realms (lower realms) endlessly.

As it is stated in the Root Tantra of Guhyasamaja: “Even if you accumulate the five most heinous negative karmas (without break of another life), it is still possible to attain the state of a Buddha in this life. But, if you have despised your Guru, it is impossible to attain buddhahood in this life.”

If one belittles or criticizes the Guru, one belittles and criticizes all the Victorious Ones. If one first relies on a Guru and then later makes mistakes in devoting to that person as a Guru it becomes an extremely great loss in ones life, because the Guru is the action of all the Buddhas to subdue oneself. Manifesting as the Guru, the Guru is the form of action of all the Buddhas. Even the teacher who teaches you reading, even that teacher, even if you secretly despise and criticize, then you have criticized or belittled the Guru, and that becomes the same as belittling or criticizing all the tendirections Buddhas. This is from the text The Essential Nectar.

The above extract has been used by Lama Zopa to tell us shugden practitioners why we should need the Dalai lama's advice. I would like to say that it equally applies to the Dalai Lama in relations to Trijang Rinpoche, HIS guru. He is not only criticising his guru secretly but openly! Watch the video where the Dalai lama says in public that Trijang Rinpoche made a mistake. Is that not once of the five heinous crimes so eloquently explained above?

Dalai lama supporters may say that the Dalai Lama is not belittling or despising his guru and is merely exercising his right to disagree with just that one point on dorje shugden. Well then, all shugden supporters are merely disagreeing with the Dalai Lama on that same point. So, if the dalai lama dares to disagree with his guru on Shugden, why can't we all do the same with the Dalai Lama?

Next point:

Quote
There have also been learned geshes and valid lamas who have practiced Dolgyal. For example Kyabje Pabonka Dechen Nyingpo, who did extensive benefit for the teachings of Buddha and transmigratory beings. People believed it was because he practiced Dolgyal that he was able to bring this extensive benefit through his holy actions. But this is a complete hallucination, without examining the facts, and because of it, many people have just practiced Dolgyal with blind faith.

In the past, Kyabje Pabonka Dechen Nyingpo practiced Most Secret Hayagriva, the circle of Dharma from the pure appearance of the Fifth Dalai Lama, but later stopped that practice. One day he told his attendant, “Tomorrow a fat monk will come to see me. Don’t allow him into my room.”

He said this precisely, but the attendant forgot what he said and when the fat monk came the next day, he allowed the monk to go into the room (this was as an obstacle for those not practicing Dolgyal and especially for those practicing Dolgyal). Later, when the attendant entered the room, it seemed the lama was not happy and looked sort of possessed. The thangkas of Most Secret Hayagriva and others had been taken down and the lama had changed in his actions.

Oh yes of course. Pabongka Rinpoche was possessed by the fat monk. Sure. A Buddha (as lama Zopa himself says in the next paragraph) was overcome by an evil spirit... It's as ridiculous as the Dalai lama saying that his life can be shortened by dorje shugden. An evil spirit can overcome Chenresig? That's the first time I hear the Buddhism cannot protect against spirits, ghosts, pretas, rakshas and the like. Are the prayers that we recite daily all lies? Surely not.


Third point:

Quote
But Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Dechen Nyingpo are Buddha. Their practice of Dolgyal is the act of showing ordinary aspect for us. Showing ordinary aspect means showing mistakes. Otherwise there is no other meaning of showing ordinary aspect. Without showing this ordinary aspect for us, there is no method to guide us from samsara. Showing the aspect of having mistakes is what leads us to enlightenment. It is so extremely kind of the Guru to show this; it is like the Guru is giving us skies filled with wish-granting jewels.              

Why does it have to be that it is Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche who are the ones showing their ordinary aspect? Why does it have to be them who are making the mistake about shugden? Could it not be the Dalai lama who is the one  making a mistake about shugden, and he really is a Buddha after all? 

All those long arguments about how the Dalai lama must be correct about shugden because he is Chenresig. Well, Pabongka Rinpoche is Chakrasambara and Trijang Rinpoche is vajrayogini! So who is the one showing ordinary aspect? Those who rely so strongly on the fact that Dalai lama is Chenresig should really read the facts and analyse it logically, and then only decide who is wrong.

And yet another point:

Quote
Even the Guru is the actual Buddha, if from one’s own side one does not look at him as the Buddha, then, as it is mentioned in the Kadampa Geshe Potowa’s Blue Pepung, “Even if Manjushri and Chenrezig actually descend in front of you, it won’t benefit you at all, if from your own side you do not look at them as Buddha. You cannot receive any blessings and will not receive profit, only loss.”

How true. Because of the Dalai lama, so many are not able to see that dorje shugden is really a Buddha. It's a shame that so many are not able to benefit at this point, or receive his blessings and protection. He is the protector of our time, but our karma has created so many obstacles for us that not all of us can see his true nature at this time.

And last of all:

Quote
Like the story of the Gelong Lekpai Karma, who served Buddha for twenty-two years. In all that time he only looked at the Buddha as a liar, and as a result he was born in the lower realms, the inexhaustible hot hell realms, for eons.
Watch out, all you dorje shugden naysayers!
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Namdrol on September 02, 2012, 08:29:20 PM
At the bottom I posted the reply from Lama Zopa somtime in 2008 where he tried to clarify things after being exposed that he is actually recognized by Dorje Shugden, well, there is no clarification, he still did not deny the fact that he IS INDEED recognized by Dorje Shugden.

So, could it be that after this was exposed, Lama Zopa is getting more and more pressure from his students, the Dalai Lama, the CTA etc to make a stance against Dorje Shugden in order to show his allegiance towards the Dalai Lama?? Therefore when the opportunity arises for him to write the foreword, Lama Zopa has to write in this manner strongly denouncing Dorje Shugden?

It this is true, it is a sad example of how politics controls over religion, and Lama Zopa has no choice in order to protect the hundreds of FPMT centers worldwide that he started, but deep down inside he is not against Dorje Shugden as he is a true Dharma practitioner.


Lama Zopa's clarification in 2008 about being recognized by Dorje Shugden:

"HOW I WAS RECOGNIZED

To my very dear friends and students,
 
I heard there is some misunderstanding about how I was recognized, so I just want to give you the details here.
 
The main disciple of the Lawudo Lama Kunsang Yeshe (who it is said is my previous life) was Ngawang Chopel. He did many retreats during his life and he also followed the Buddha's example of offering his own body (charity) to the insects and animals for seven days; this was quite amazing as he completely offered and they ate parts of it and he had to be taken to the hospital. Later Ngawang Chopel also built a monastery at Maritika near a cave of Guru Rinpoche (considered one of the most holy places of Guru Rinpoche - where it is said He achieved immortality). Ngawang Chopel was with the Lawudo Lama at the time of his death. The Lawudo Lama explained the signs happening in the death process to him as he was dying.
 
Since I was born in a very poor family, there was doubt by some if I was the incarnation, mainly on the part of the son of Lama Kunsang Yeshe. When Ngawang Chopel heard this he went immediately to Tibet to consult high lamas and all six lamas he consulted confirmed without doubt that I was the incarnation of the Lawudo Lama Kunsang Yeshe. Two of the six high Lamas were His Holiness Tulshig Rinpoche (one of the teachers of His Holiness the Dalai Lama) and his root guru, the great Lama Rongpu Sangye. So at an early age, long before going to Tibet and the monastery at Pagri (small branch of Domo Geshe's main monastery), I was recognized. Before I left for Tibet the son of Lama Kunsang Yeshe accepted me as the incarnation and promised to return to me the cave and texts etc. belonging to his father after I returned from Tibet.
 
I was brought into Tibet by two uncles; both were my alphabet teachers. Why did I have two alphabet teachers? The first one was from Thami, near Lawudo; he took care of me. When I was very small (maybe four years old) I was always escaping and running home, so my mother sent me far away to the monastery in Rolwaling, a very isolated place high in the mountains near Tibet. There I was in the care of another uncle, Ngawang Gendun, who also taught me the alphabet (Tibetan). I stayed with him in Rolwaling for seven years, memorizing and reading texts and doing pujas called "shi-trol."
 
These two uncles took me to Tibet. In Tibet I stayed with another uncle. He was in the Indian army; then he met a Tibetan lady from Tsang and they married and lived in Pagri, Tibet. Pagri was a very busy place for traders from Bhutan, Kalimpong, Lhasa, etc.  The three uncles with some other Sherpas left me in the care of my aunt while they went on pilgrimage to Lhasa. They didn't take me as they thought the journey would be too difficult and I could die, as I was still very young. After living some time in Pagri (hanging around), outside my house I met a very tall monk (externally appearing not to know me) and immediately he asked me if I would be his disciple (there must have been very strong karma with him). I answered him immediately "yes." Next day in the morning my aunt made a very nice thermos of tea and bread in a bamboo container inside a basket and took me to the small branch monastery of Domo Geshe Rinpoche's main monastery about fifteen to twenty minutes' walk away, where I met the tall monk again - he was the Lopon of this small monastery. The Lopon heard stories of me from people in the village, that I was a tulku from Lawudo near Thami. So the Lopon for his own benefit asked the oracle of the monastery if this was true.
 
With much love and prayer,
 
Lama Zopa Rinpoche"
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Namdrol on September 02, 2012, 08:32:17 PM
just sidetrack a bit, look at the last line of Lama Zopa's "clarification" in my post above, he says "So the Lopon for his own benefit asked the oracle of the monastery if this was true", and it ends there, so who is the oracle of the monastery? THE FAMOUS DORJE SHUGDEN ORACLE OF DUNGKAR MONASTERY OF COURSE!!! Let me help Lama Zopa in completing his sentence.

Therefore, Lama Zopa himself admitted that HE IS RECOGNIZED BY DORJE SHUGDEN!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on September 02, 2012, 11:07:02 PM
I am incredulous upon reading some of the key points in Lama Zopa's forward. Any beginner in debate could see through these flimsy arguments:

The above extract has been used by Lama Zopa to tell us shugden practitioners why we should need the Dalai lama's advice. I would like to say that it equally applies to the Dalai Lama in relations to Trijang Rinpoche, HIS guru. He is not only criticising his guru secretly but openly! Watch the video where the Dalai lama says in public that Trijang Rinpoche made a mistake. Is that not once of the five heinous crimes so eloquently explained above?
Hmm, if you put it that way, perhaps the foreword was really written by Lama Zopa, but it contains some kind of hidden message meant for the more intelligent to decipher. HHDL has always advocated an unique stance of Guru devotion where it is okay for the Guru to make mistakes, he's still a Buddha which also means, in a double edged way, that he could be wrong also. If he could be wrong about Dorje Shugden, that does not mean he is not Chenrenzig, but just manifesting an ordinary mistake?

Dalai lama supporters may say that the Dalai Lama is not belittling or despising his guru and is merely exercising his right to disagree with just that one point on dorje shugden. Well then, all shugden supporters are merely disagreeing with the Dalai Lama on that same point. So, if the dalai lama dares to disagree with his guru on Shugden, why can't we all do the same with the Dalai Lama?
There is really no such thing as exercising the right to disagree with Dorje Shugden because if you can disagree with Dorje Shugden, you might as well disagree with Lama Tsongkhapa as they are of the same mindstream and it can even go further to exercising the right to deny the existence of the 4 noble truths. Then what Buddhism is left?

Next point:

Oh yes of course. Pabongka Rinpoche was possessed by the fat monk. Sure. A Buddha (as lama Zopa himself says in the next paragraph) was overcome by an evil spirit... It's as ridiculous as the Dalai lama saying that his life can be shortened by dorje shugden. An evil spirit can overcome Chenresig? That's the first time I hear the Buddhism cannot protect against spirits, ghosts, pretas, rakshas and the like. Are the prayers that we recite daily all lies? Surely not.
If Pabongkha Rinpoche was possessed by a fat monk or whatever it is, then it would mean that his Dharma practice had no results from the start. But this contradicts completely with the stories of his remarkable tantric achievements and being able to perceive Heruka and Vajrayogini directly. Surely it would mean that those are lies! You have a very valid point there, thor.

Third point:

Why does it have to be that it is Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche who are the ones showing their ordinary aspect? Why does it have to be them who are making the mistake about shugden? Could it not be the Dalai lama who is the one  making a mistake about shugden, and he really is a Buddha after all?

All those long arguments about how the Dalai lama must be correct about shugden because he is Chenresig. Well, Pabongka Rinpoche is Chakrasambara and Trijang Rinpoche is vajrayogini! So who is the one showing ordinary aspect? Those who rely so strongly on the fact that Dalai lama is Chenresig should really read the facts and analyse it logically, and then only decide who is wrong.
I do agree in full about this point. Why must it be the high lamas that have made a mistake? Why cant it be HHDL? is it because he is the pope of Tibet therefore whatever he says must be true? Or that he is actually gauging the intelligence of his disciples this time around? Spiritual devotion in Buddhism is always based on investigations and how can one come to a proper conclusion with biased facts?

How true. Because of the Dalai lama, so many are not able to see that dorje shugden is really a Buddha. It's a shame that so many are not able to benefit at this point, or receive his blessings and protection. He is the protector of our time, but our karma has created so many obstacles for us that not all of us can see his true nature at this time.
It is sad indeed that so many are unable to derive benefit from Dorje Shugden due to the ban. It is a shame indeed to not be able to derive benefit from a great being such as Dorje Shugden who can literally provide the sincere practitioner with all they need, from a spiritual guide to material needs and even help with mental or physical sickness. Perhaps the negative karma of those during this time are causing them to not be able to see Dorje Shugden as who he is.

Quote
Like the story of the Gelong Lekpai Karma, who served Buddha for twenty-two years. In all that time he only looked at the Buddha as a liar, and as a result he was born in the lower realms, the inexhaustible hot hell realms, for eons.
Watch out, all you dorje shugden naysayers!
For those, especially those who turned their backs on Dorje Shugden after receiving so much help, assistance and benefits from him, this story talks of a very probable outcome for you guys.

Excellent analysis and refutal indeed, Thor. your points are very well thought of, and is extremely logical in more ways than one. It did made me  think...maybe Lama Zopa DID write the foreword, but with many underlying clues for the more intelligent person to read and decipher.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: yontenjamyang on September 03, 2012, 06:46:48 AM
It is a paradox to equate the Dorje Shugden practice with that of the Lama manifesting ordinary aspect as a method to shows disciples a way out of samsara.  In the ordinary course of the day perhaps this may apply. For something a major as this I have my doubts; for then we can also argue that the Dalai Lama or Lama Zopa himself is also showing ordinary aspect. So this point from the foreword is as good as not making any point or ...is Lama Zopa telling us to just follow our Guru.

After all, Guru Devotion is the supreme method.

I think if Lama Zopa has not refuted the foreword, whether it is written by him is not the point. I think he skillfully inserted many arguments that to the anti-Shugdens, look like well...anti-Shugden but to Shugden practitioners he is basically asking to follow the Guru as he is the emanations of all the Buddhas.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on September 04, 2012, 07:53:49 AM
I think we are not seeing the whole picture here.  I don't think any high lama would openly criticize one's gurus and lineage like that, even if he meant it i would still choose to believe there are bigger reason than just mere criticism.  If a lama is petty like that to criticize one's practice, lineage and guru then how is it possible to give teachings to thousands if his mind is as petty as what he says.  Unless this is the broken samaya of the students who caused Lama Zopa to manifest this way, I do not know whether is possible.  But because of broken samaya, the lama can manifest in some other ways that is very unpredictable in order for the dharma to reach out to other audience because of the current students do not have the merits to receive the teachings.  We are talking about Lama Zopa here, I still have hope and faith that such an elite master will have his wisdom to accompany his wisdom?  Maybe this will be the ultimate stir in the BUddhism world because the ban is slowly remove?  Only time will tell.

When it comes to broken samaya, it is very obvious that Lama Yeshe's failure to return as a Lama as Lama Osel is a very clear sign of that. FPMT centers have been more concerned with things such as policing the Buddhist centers in their region and "checking" out lamas and Buddhist events held in the countries that they set foot on and making sure that they are valid, and making associations and groups and cliques of Buddhist communities in the region for networking purposes. This is in addition to what they have been doing about the ban and discriminating against Dorje Shugden practitioners. Lama Zopa's stroke last year was a very strong warning sign for the FPMT people that their broken samaya is reaching a critical level. Sadly, many of them still do not get it and still go about as if everything is okay and what they are doing is right. This foreword is EXACTLY what his students are dying to hear from him and perhaps he is just making them happy for now, at the cost of his own samaya. I dont know if you have noticed, but of late, Lama Zopa's activities have severely diminished. It will only get worse from here.

I dont really know what will happen soon if the students do not change or buck up or at least engage in Samayavajra...so that they will gain the wisdom to not do what will make things worse....
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: donoharm on September 04, 2012, 03:41:47 PM
This whole thing about monks of Idgaa Choizinling in the Mongolian city of Ulaanbaatar have translated into Mongolian the second book by His Holiness the Dalai Lama advising not to practice Dolgyal  and Lama zopa Involvement is nothing but  Direct counter to HH Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche.   Many Mongolian people including monks and lay people are very much worship dorje shugden and consider HH Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche as their root guru...   The new action  dalai lama or lama zopa or TGi in mongolia is nothing but  they hate that fact that   His Holiness Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche growing very big in mongolia and few other countries..   I have recently heard from a very good source about  HH Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche  and how he operate things and connections way beyond i have ever imagine.  It shocking!!  really made me happy.  Guess time will tell.   Sorry my english is not the best.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on September 05, 2012, 04:20:46 AM
This whole thing about monks of Idgaa Choizinling in the Mongolian city of Ulaanbaatar have translated into Mongolian the second book by His Holiness the Dalai Lama advising not to practice Dolgyal  and Lama zopa Involvement is nothing but  Direct counter to HH Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche.   Many Mongolian people including monks and lay people are very much worship dorje shugden and consider HH Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche as their root guru...   The new action  dalai lama or lama zopa or TGi in mongolia is nothing but  they hate that fact that   His Holiness Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche growing very big in mongolia and few other countries..   I have recently heard from a very good source about  HH Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche  and how he operate things and connections way beyond i have ever imagine.  It shocking!!  really made me happy.  Guess time will tell.   Sorry my english is not the best.

Thank you for your information donoharm. Updates about Trijang Rinpoche and news about him is always a good thing and a very welcome thing as it is not easy to get information or updates of the current Trijang Rinpoche as he keeps a low profile, but from what you wrote filled my heart with joy and hope that he is still benefitting others despite the difficult conditions he was placed in. It is definite proof that tulkus are indeed enlightened and they will find a way to teach Dharma and spread it no matter what the conditions are. CTA may be hostile against him  but that does not stop him at all from spreading the Dharma. I really wish that you would share with us more on how Trijang Rinpoche benefitted others in this life so that we may all be inspired and we do know what is going on because it does increase our faith in him. To me, he is our Lineage Lama, and he will always be one and any news on any of the Lineage Lamas is a nice one that we all would like to know about.

I really hope that Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongkha Rinpoche can go "mainstream" again as more people will be able to benefit from them, more than ever before. If CTA decides to suppress them, too bad for the CTA as  they will be creating more and more causes for them to go down. HHDL DID NOT ask you to give death threats to Trijang Rinpoche, so why do it? Why threaten HHDL's Guru? what a stupid and unfortunate act. Karma from that is extremely heavy as it also affects so many other people who can potentially benefit from Trijang Rinpoche. Moreover, how can you claim to love the Dalai Lama but put his Guru down? What logic?
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: beggar on September 05, 2012, 05:41:52 PM
Well, this really did get me thinking. Would Lama Zopa really be that crass about this? I'm not quite sure. I've been hiding out with my thinking cap and here's what I think (otherwise known as, an attempt at being a journalist):


The Ban on Dorje Shugden: A Manifested Mistake?


H.E. Lama Zopa has put forward a shocking new voice in the Dorje Shugden debate in a new foreword he has written for a book of the Dalai Lama’s compiled teachings against this Protector Deity (see full foreword below). While Lama Zopa himself has openly chosen not to continue the practice within his organisation (FPMT), he has, until now, expressed a fairly neutral and respectful stance towards the issue. This foreword however, presents quite a different perspective and tone.


Most importantly, the foreword touches on the very profound and central issue of Guru devotion, and the relationship we must hold with our spiritual teachers. This is especially important in the context of the Shugden issue. For millions of practitioners, this decision to continue or give up their practice also necessarily involves a question of keeping or breaking samaya (the sacred relationship and loyalty) with their Gurus.

In his foreword, Lama Zopa explains at length the highly negative consequences of harboring negative thoughts towards our Gurus, to belittle, doubt or criticize them. We assume he writes this with a specific reference to the Dalai Lama, and not following his advice about Shugden. But there’s the first break in his argument. What if our lamas are NOT the Dalai Lama? In this case, “belittling and criticizing our Gurus” would mean not following their advice. They may have given us the practice of Dorje Shugden. So, if we give up the practice and criticize them for it, we reap the same terrible consequences that Lama Zopa describes so clearly here.

The situation becomes much more complicated for the thousands of people who have both Dalai Lama and other Shugden lamas as their Gurus. Who should they follow? Whichever teacher’s advice they follow regarding Shugden practice will mean they forsake the other and therefore end up in the lower realms. How can Lama Zopa not know this? Are we being set up to fail? Or is there something more to this?

Then, Lama Zopa very kindly advices that holy beings can deliberately manifest mistakes and an “ordinary” appearance for students to “increase devotion” and learn and examine the teachings deeper. Lama Zopa suggests that Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche manifested a ‘mistake’ when they taught and spread Shugden. But this ‘mistake’ is no small matter. Thousands of practitioners worldwide since the time of Pabongka Rinpoche (and even before, before hundreds of years) have been doing this practice and are continuing to practice to this day. They would not have known in any way that this was a ‘mistake’; that Shugden was not ‘really’ an enlightened being all along but a ‘spirit’, as is now claimed.

If it really was the case that Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche were manifesting ‘mistakes’ by promoting the practice of a so-called spirit, then these thousands of beings would now be in the three lower realms as a result of this ‘mistake’. Where was these lamas’ compassion for those millions of students who followed their ‘mistaken’ advice? Surely, that would be an unnecessarily high price to pay for a teacher just to manifest a mistake to ‘teach a lesson’.  Is there no other way for displaying an ordinary aspect, without putting students’ future rebirths at such risk of landing in the three lower realms?

Lastly, if Lama Zopa says that such holy beings – including “Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Dechen Nyingpo [who] are Buddha” – are capable of manifesting mistakes, then logically this could also mean that the Dalai Lama himself is also manifesting a mistake in this ban. Think about it – why would this teaching apply to some lamas – such as Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche – but not to others, like the Dalai Lama? Lama Zopa himself emphasizes throughout the foreword that the Dalai Lama is unquestionably the emanation of Chenrezig. Would the omniscient, fully enlightened Buddha Chenrezig really make such simple mistakes without knowing the consequences?

Lama Zopa has surprised us with this new stance on the Shugden issue but he has also opened up the whole situation for further debate – for practitioners both for and against the practice. After all, another point he repeatedly drives home to the reader that “whatever we practice in Buddhism, we must examine it well, just as Buddha has advised, and Buddha gave us the freedom to do this”.

Examine the ‘mistakes’, as well as the teachings and realize that the black mark on our face – our doubts, our broken samayas and wrong views – is truly our own, not the Guru’s.

Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on September 06, 2012, 10:57:50 AM
Well, this really did get me thinking. Would Lama Zopa really be that crass about this? I'm not quite sure. I've been hiding out with my thinking cap and here's what I think (otherwise known as, an attempt at being a journalist):


The Ban on Dorje Shugden: A Manifested Mistake?


H.E. Lama Zopa has put forward a shocking new voice in the Dorje Shugden debate in a new foreword he has written for a book of the Dalai Lama’s compiled teachings against this Protector Deity (see full foreword below). While Lama Zopa himself has openly chosen not to continue the practice within his organisation (FPMT), he has, until now, expressed a fairly neutral and respectful stance towards the issue. This foreword however, presents quite a different perspective and tone.
Quote
The sudden change of stance is something quite shocking and odd for a high lama of his calibre. one would expect a Lama to be more consistent with his actions and words, but perhaps, Lama Zopa is trying to prove a point or that this foreword is simply not written by him.

Most importantly, the foreword touches on the very profound and central issue of Guru devotion, and the relationship we must hold with our spiritual teachers. This is especially important in the context of the Shugden issue. For millions of practitioners, this decision to continue or give up their practice also necessarily involves a question of keeping or breaking samaya (the sacred relationship and loyalty) with their Gurus.
Lama Zopa has somewhat introduced the Dalai Lama's way of Guru devotion: that your Guru can make mistakes but he is still perfect. He expanded that idea to say that it is the Guru's way of teaching the disciples via mistakes. Um, so, how do i know now if his Kalachakra initiation is a mistake too?

In his foreword, Lama Zopa explains at length the highly negative consequences of harboring negative thoughts towards our Gurus, to belittle, doubt or criticize them. We assume he writes this with a specific reference to the Dalai Lama, and not following his advice about Shugden. But there’s the first break in his argument. What if our lamas are NOT the Dalai Lama? In this case, “belittling and criticizing our Gurus” would mean not following their advice. They may have given us the practice of Dorje Shugden. So, if we give up the practice and criticize them for it, we reap the same terrible consequences that Lama Zopa describes so clearly here.
Then it does not apply to us, but he has mentioned that the Dalai Lama is the Guru to ALL tibetan Buddhists (guffaw...) so if we are Tibetan Buddhists, we have to accept him by default. No matter how we want to talk about this, neither Lama Zopa nor Dalai Lama asked anyone to publicly criticize Dorje Shugden Lamas. Then why are their students doing just the opposite?

The situation becomes much more complicated for the thousands of people who have both Dalai Lama and other Shugden lamas as their Gurus. Who should they follow? Whichever teacher’s advice they follow regarding Shugden practice will mean they forsake the other and therefore end up in the lower realms. How can Lama Zopa not know this? Are we being set up to fail? Or is there something more to this?
Then they will have to make a decision based on their Dharma practice experience and wisdom. They will have to decide which Lama is the one that they are closest to and who can teach them directly as opposed to having one that can only visit once a year. Hint: DS Lamas actually are  more dedicated.

Then, Lama Zopa very kindly advices that holy beings can deliberately manifest mistakes and an “ordinary” appearance for students to “increase devotion” and learn and examine the teachings deeper. Lama Zopa suggests that Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche manifested a ‘mistake’ when they taught and spread Shugden. But this ‘mistake’ is no small matter. Thousands of practitioners worldwide since the time of Pabongka Rinpoche (and even before, before hundreds of years) have been doing this practice and are continuing to practice to this day. They would not have known in any way that this was a ‘mistake’; that Shugden was not ‘really’ an enlightened being all along but a ‘spirit’, as is now claimed.
This ideology and explanation is flawed: why must it be that it is Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche the ones that made mistakes? why cant it be the Dalai Lama? A sword cuts both ways and perhaps, this is Lama Zopa's very subtle  hint, or was slipped in as it does not fit in to the rest of the foreword.

If it really was the case that Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche were manifesting ‘mistakes’ by promoting the practice of a so-called spirit, then these thousands of beings would now be in the three lower realms as a result of this ‘mistake’. Where was these lamas’ compassion for those millions of students who followed their ‘mistaken’ advice? Surely, that would be an unnecessarily high price to pay for a teacher just to manifest a mistake to ‘teach a lesson’.  Is there no other way for displaying an ordinary aspect, without putting students’ future rebirths at such risk of landing in the three lower realms?
And the people that will be misled by their mistakes, who would take care of them? also, how can we know if the practices and the teachings that they teach are not mistakes as well?

Lastly, if Lama Zopa says that such holy beings – including “Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Dechen Nyingpo [who] are Buddha” – are capable of manifesting mistakes, then logically this could also mean that the Dalai Lama himself is also manifesting a mistake in this ban. Think about it – why would this teaching apply to some lamas – such as Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche – but not to others, like the Dalai Lama? Lama Zopa himself emphasizes throughout the foreword that the Dalai Lama is unquestionably the emanation of Chenrezig. Would the omniscient, fully enlightened Buddha Chenrezig really make such simple mistakes without knowing the consequences?
A sword cuts both sides. this is a huge hint that Lama Zopa has left us in this article.

Lama Zopa has surprised us with this new stance on the Shugden issue but he has also opened up the whole situation for further debate – for practitioners both for and against the practice. After all, another point he repeatedly drives home to the reader that “whatever we practice in Buddhism, we must examine it well, just as Buddha has advised, and Buddha gave us the freedom to do this”.
This is the advice that both the Buddha and Dalai Lama has repeatedly stated. It is really up to us to listen or to pretend we never heard this.

Examine the ‘mistakes’, as well as the teachings and realize that the black mark on our face – our doubts, our broken samayas and wrong views – is truly our own, not the Guru’s.
It is due to our negative karma that we perceive otherwise. It is said that people with very deeply broken samaya will start to feel that the Guru has faults. So what is this really about? hmmm.

I feel that for some reason, Lama Zopa is trying to point out to some people about their broken samaya with regards to this issue. Thanks for highlighting this, beggar. your writings are illuminating as always.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: vajrastorm on September 07, 2012, 09:28:48 AM
First of all, knowing Lama Zopa for the compassionate Lama that he is , so full of Guru Devotion, it is most uncharacteristic of him to launch into this sharp attack of Dorje Shugden and Shugden practitioners. He cannot, for instance be criticizing his own beloved Lama , Lama Yeshe, for practicing Shugden (which he did). In this particular instance, though, his criticism is in very vague words.He says  " Gen Thubten Yeshe, when passing away, before his last breath, showed very clearly the experience that Dogyal was not perfect". (Actually, one isn't even sure of what he means here in the criticism).

 He himself says here that terrible negative karma will be collected by students who go against their Guru and break samaya with him. What about the terrible consequence of his own broken samaya with Lama Yeshe by his forsaking Shugden practice(given to him by Lama Yeshe, a devoted Shugden practitioner)?

Curiously, he cites the 5th Dalai Lama, as saying"To the mind that is hallucinating, the opposite mind, one's mistakes is manifested in the Guru's actions". Can this be applied to him and his FPMT students?

All in all, in answer to the questions posed by Mana, such as  whether this foreword's attack on Shugden is to "keep up the schism"  and "Shouldn't the anti-Shugden issue be laid to rest?", I would say that this foreword's attack on Shugden is important in keeping alive the debate on the Dorje Shugden issue and ban, so as to create the cause for the ban to be lifted. I believe that this is precisely the intention of the Lama Zopa in employing a strong anti Shugden stance in his foreword. 
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on September 07, 2012, 02:21:58 PM
First of all, knowing Lama Zopa for the compassionate Lama that he is , so full of Guru Devotion, it is most uncharacteristic of him to launch into this sharp attack of Dorje Shugden and Shugden practitioners. He cannot, for instance be criticizing his own beloved Lama , Lama Yeshe, for practicing Shugden (which he did). In this particular instance, though, his criticism is in very vague words.He says  " Gen Thubten Yeshe, when passing away, before his last breath, showed very clearly the experience that Dogyal was not perfect". (Actually, one isn't even sure of what he means here in the criticism).
you're right. This sounds very ambiguous and not something concrete. Lama Zopa has never attacked anyone before in any way, sharp or not, which is why the more I read this letter, the more I do not feel that it was written by him. I do not think that he would go to as far as using Lama Yeshe's name in this issue. Only someone who is not Lama Zopa would write in this way.

 He himself says here that terrible negative karma will be collected by students who go against their Guru and break samaya with him. What about the terrible consequence of his own broken samaya with Lama Yeshe by his forsaking Shugden practice(given to him by Lama Yeshe, a devoted Shugden practitioner)?
What about those who broke their samaya with their Guru  by forsaking Dorje Shugden and deserting their Guru just because the Guru practiced Dorje Shugden, not just Lama Zopa? Can these broken samayas be erased just because HHDL said it is ok without much logical basis? If this is possible, it would also mean that one can have all their negative karma purified just by getting the Dalai Lama to say so.

Curiously, he cites the 5th Dalai Lama, as saying"To the mind that is hallucinating, the opposite mind, one's mistakes is manifested in the Guru's actions". Can this be applied to him and his FPMT students?
Broken samaya can cause the Guru to manifest in unpredictable ways, and the most obvious examples of these are Lama Osel and Kalu Rinpoche. they have stopped manifesting in the traditional way of a monk due to broken samaya, and perhaps this is Lama Zopa's hint to his students, if it is true that this foreword was written by Lama Zopa in the first place. Maybe thats whats gonna happen to Lama Zopa too...

All in all, in answer to the questions posed by Mana, such as  whether this foreword's attack on Shugden is to "keep up the schism"  and "Shouldn't the anti-Shugden issue be laid to rest?", I would say that this foreword's attack on Shugden is important in keeping alive the debate on the Dorje Shugden issue and ban, so as to create the cause for the ban to be lifted. I believe that this is precisely the intention of the Lama Zopa in employing a strong anti Shugden stance in his foreword.
If HHDL really wanted Dorje Shugden to die out, he would have done what the other 3 lineages did: proclaim that even mentioning the name Dorje Shugden brings bad luck and therefore we should not even mention his name (oh my, how Buddhist!) instead of talking about it and reminding people about Dorje Shugden again and again. So..yep, here's another way to look at it.

No matter how you say, this foreword has more mystery than clarifications, and there are just so many interesting and unexplainable points contained within this seemingly simple foreword. Thank you so much Vajrastorm for giving us another perspective of this issue!
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Losang_Tenpa on September 07, 2012, 03:06:08 PM
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Those who strongly practice Dolgyal eventually end up dying in the most dangerous manner. For example, Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk, learned in scriptures and from the great seat of Sera Me Monastery, who invited the reincarnation of Pabongka Rinpoche to Tibet and made the incarnation take the life-entrusting initiation of Dolgyal and the Heruka Body Mandala from Gonpa Sa Rinpoche. One day when travelling in a vehicle, they came up on a pass and although there were many people in the vehicle, he alone fell out of the window, down the cliff and died.

I am still bewildered by this statement, which lacks any logic or reasoning whatsoever.
This is such an absurd over-generalization. He did not qualify this first sentence in any way with the words  'some' or 'a few'. His first statement, as it stands, is disproved by looking into the accounts of countless lineage masters, who not only passed into clear light consciously and peacefully, but came back again and again to turn the wheel of the Dharma.

This type of shoot-from-the-hip statement, along with many other widely discrepant claims, renders the whole article unreliable.


Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Lineageholder on September 07, 2012, 04:46:14 PM

It is sad that more of such books are being proliferated in the Mongolian speaking world where Dorje Shugden is relatively strong and the ban has not really penetrated.

That's precisely why this politically motivated nonsense is being proliferated.

It makes me sad that either Lama Zopa wrote this, or refuses to disown it if it was written by someone else.  It shows what level the Gelugpa tradition has sunk to in this degenerate world and it shows that FPMT is just a political puppet organisation of the Dalai Lama's now. Apart from those Lamas who are faithful to the teachings of Je Pabongkhapa and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, there's no hope for the Gelugpa tradition's future.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Lineageholder on September 07, 2012, 04:48:53 PM
Quote
Those who strongly practice Dolgyal eventually end up dying in the most dangerous manner.

This is superstitious nonsense.  I know lots of people who are strongly practising Dorje Shugden who have good and healthy lives and who die peacefully.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: DS Star on September 07, 2012, 05:42:03 PM
You know what? It doesn't matter that it was not written by Lama Zopa, it would have been written by an attendant but the fact that it does bear Lama Zopa's name and it was not contested says a lot. However, I too do not believe that Lama Zopa would say such things about Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden.

If you read his prior writings on Dorje Shugden, Lama Zopa writes vaguely and tells people not to denigrate the lineage Lamas like Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and he says not to put down Dorje Shugden but encourages people not to practice Dorje Shugden because of the Dalai Lama's qualities and not what he said about Dorje Shugden. That sounds more like Lama Zopa than this foreword.

It is sad that more of such books are being proliferated in the Mongolian speaking world where Dorje Shugden is relatively strong and the ban has not really penetrated.

Agreed, the foreword bears Lama Zopa's name but the writings did not resemble Lama Zopa's previous teachings and writings on Dorje Shugden's issue.

A great Lama would not have resort to this kind of 'Fear tactic' to justify his stand. As we know and can still witness from Lama Zopa's actions, his has very very strong Guru Devotion and thus, he definitely would not goes against his own Guru Lama Yeshe and would not write such remarks or stories about great lineage Gurus especially Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche.

The argument that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche practice DS to show us the mistake... this is really ridiculous. If it was a mistake to be avoided, why Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche still continue to practice it and even risk his own life not to denounce it?

I too very sad that more and more this kind of books are being published to mislead DS practitioners in Mongolia.

Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on September 09, 2012, 10:55:01 AM
Quote
Those who strongly practice Dolgyal eventually end up dying in the most dangerous manner. For example, Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk, learned in scriptures and from the great seat of Sera Me Monastery, who invited the reincarnation of Pabongka Rinpoche to Tibet and made the incarnation take the life-entrusting initiation of Dolgyal and the Heruka Body Mandala from Gonpa Sa Rinpoche. One day when travelling in a vehicle, they came up on a pass and although there were many people in the vehicle, he alone fell out of the window, down the cliff and died.

I am still bewildered by this statement, which lacks any logic or reasoning whatsoever.
This is such an absurd over-generalization. He did not qualify this first sentence in any way with the words  'some' or 'a few'. His first statement, as it stands, is disproved by looking into the accounts of countless lineage masters, who not only passed into clear light consciously and peacefully, but came back again and again to turn the wheel of the Dharma.

This type of shoot-from-the-hip statement, along with many other widely discrepant claims, renders the whole article unreliable.

No matter how we wanna see it, this foreword contains a lot of illogical statements that do not make sense in any way at all. It does sound a lot like what the Dalai Lama had said about Dorje Shugden but it lacks substance completely as these stories lack many supporting information that makes it concrete. In any case, this is not how Lama Zopa would normally give a teaching, and probably in some way, I do not feel that Lama Zopa is even aware of the existence of this foreword attributed to  his name. If he was, I am sure he would not be happy about it. Not to impose that Lama Zopa should teach in a certain way, but the differences between this foreword and his previous works is too stark and hard to reconcile. The tone and context differs very much. It actually sounds more like the articles against Dorje Shugden posted on the Dalai Lama's website and I am not surprised if they are indeed actually written by the same person.

One thing for sure is, you aint gonna get a confession from Lama Osel that Dorje Shugden is bad. If anyone can verify the account that Lama Yeshe said that Dorje Shugden is bad on his deathbed, it would be Lama Osel himself.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: gomchen on September 09, 2012, 12:26:46 PM
One thing for sure is, you aint gonna get a confession from Lama Osel that Dorje Shugden is bad. If anyone can verify the account that Lama Yeshe said that Dorje Shugden is bad on his deathbed, it would be Lama Osel himself.
It wouldn't surprise me if Osel does make some statement in the future condemning Dorje Shugden.

That forward is very sad to read.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on September 09, 2012, 01:25:37 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if Osel does make some statement in the future condemning Dorje Shugden.

That forward is very sad to read.

I dont think that will happen. Lama Osel is really Lama Yeshe's incarnation but due to circumstances, he is unable to manifest as a Lama in this life and reconnect with his former students. The reason for this is simple -- Lama Yeshe was a strong Dorje Shugden practitioner. When he returned and the FPMT students started to spin the whole Dorje Shugden thing into a political thing, he decided to give up his monkhood due to the force of the broken samaya from the students. It wasnt the ban that caused him to become the way he did, it was the students acting in ways that contradict the Dharma and adding in additional things to the ban. If they kept quiet about Dorje Shugden and focused on their own practice, while disallowing Dorje Shugden practitioners in their center, that would have been fine but they somehow find the need to publicly deride Dorje Shugden lamas and practitioners. This caused them to sever their ties with Lama Yeshe, and effectively generating the negative karma for Lama Osel to manifest the way that he is now.

For Lama Osel to manifest as a Lama again, they must seek forgiveness from Dorje Shugden via the oracle, but clearly, nobody could care less.
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: dondrup on September 09, 2012, 06:17:07 PM
I personally do not believe Lama Zopa Rinpoche would write such a forward that goes against Dorje Shugden!  It was Dorje Shugden who gave Lama Zopa his official recognition as a Rinpoche!  How can Kyabje Lama Zopa not have gratitude for Dorje Shugden?  Not logical!  Why would Lama Zopa want to create further schism amongst the Mongolian practitioners when the ban has already generated so much unnecessary sufferings for the Gelugpa practitioners?

How do you substantiate the stories in the forward with concrete evidences that they are true?  Surely at the time before the ban, many would have addressed these queries with Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche,  and all the lineage and high lamas?
Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Manjushri on September 11, 2012, 11:34:43 AM


Many of those who rely on Dolgyal have received teachings and initiations in the presence of His Holiness the Dalai Lama and have relied on His Holiness as their most kind Guru (Virtuous Friend). Nevertheless, later they have come to regard His Holiness as an enemy.

I would like to say that what if HHDL is not our root Guru? Does that mean we can practise Dorje Shugden if we have received it from our kind guru?


Dolgyal is one who, in the past, broke samaya (pledges) and made harmful, mistaken prayers to the teachings of our Founder/Teacher: Buddha. This has been stated by one who knows the past and future.

I would like to know what has been stated?

Again, a business man, Dorje Gyaltsen, who was a very strong practitioner of Dolgyal in secret, when tormented by sickness, he asked his wife to go to the usual place to propitiate Dolgyal. Not having known that he was a daily practitioner of Dolgyal, his wife, although very shocked, had no choice but to comply with his wishes to go and make the tea offering (relying on Dolgyal for the success of actions) on his behalf. Then directly from the mouth of the sick person came the words, “Up until now, Dolgyal has deceived me. I can see the actual ghost form of that vicious one. I have been deceived. I have been mistaken until now. I apologize and confess to my Gurus.”

Who was his guru? A lay person can see the actual "ghost" of a Buddha..what makes you think it was Shugden? Many people hallucinate during times they are extremely down. Not being an enlightened being, how can he declare that that 'ghost' is of Shugden? Maybe it was his own karma that cause his death. If he died foaming at the mouth with an expression of being strangled, could it be that he was poisoned, and gasping for air in the very last minutes that gave the impression as if he was being strangled? And because of this poison so strong in his body, vultures can't take his flesh.

The other is the one whose kindness is greater than the Buddhas of the three times, the one whose name is difficult to mention, my great virtuous friend Gen Thubten Yeshe, who was a strong practitioner of Dolgyal. When passing away, before his the last breath, he showed very clearly the expression that Dolgyal was not perfect. This has been my personal experience, from being together at the time of his passing away.

If Shugden was not perfect and Lama Yeshe was a strong practitioner of Shugden, doesn't it make his teachings and practises tainted since praying to a "spirit" breaks one refuge vows which is the basis to all other vows? Then Lama Zopa have been tutored by a teacher with a stained root and lineage therefore Lama Zopa too, would be practising and teaching without the lineage lama's blessings. Also, if Shugden was a spirit, and Lama Yeshe was such a strong practitioner, wouldnt he have gone to the 3 lower realms? Why has his re-incarnation come back as Lama Osel? And also, isn't Lama Zopa creating doubt in Lama Yeshe? Isn't that wrong to do, as a disciple? What happened to guru devotion?


But Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Dechen Nyingpo are Buddha. Their practice of Dolgyal is the act of showing ordinary aspect for us. Showing ordinary aspect means showing mistakes. Otherwise there is no other meaning of showing ordinary aspect. Without showing this ordinary aspect for us, there is no method to guide us from samsara. Showing the aspect of having mistakes is what leads us to enlightenment. It is so extremely kind of the Guru to show this; it is like the Guru is giving us skies filled with wish-granting jewels
 
I don't think high lamas will show mistakes in their practises and pass that down onto their disciples. That would be teaching incorrect Dharma.. so why do we have the Lamrim and base many studies from the Lamrim that was thought by Pabongkha? Could that have been him showing ordinary aspect as well?


To be honest, the foreward written is not very convincing at all because many of the points do not have a strong backing or a "root" to it. Many points are taken on a surface level, and to me, still cannot justify that Dorje Shugden's practise is 'bad'.

Just on the basis that HHDL is not our root guru therefore if our guru practises and passes on the practises of Dorje Shugden onto us, does that mean that we are free to practise? Does the whole of China get to practise because obviously HHDL is not their guru. Therefore, they are not defying guru devotion, which formed a lengthy commencement to the foreword?

Title: Re: Lama Zopa writes a foreword AGAINST Shugden
Post by: Ensapa on October 08, 2012, 02:06:50 PM
I personally do not believe Lama Zopa Rinpoche would write such a forward that goes against Dorje Shugden!  It was Dorje Shugden who gave Lama Zopa his official recognition as a Rinpoche!  How can Kyabje Lama Zopa not have gratitude for Dorje Shugden?  Not logical!  Why would Lama Zopa want to create further schism amongst the Mongolian practitioners when the ban has already generated so much unnecessary sufferings for the Gelugpa practitioners?
The style, tone and content of the foreword is very uncharacteristic of Lama Zopa and perhaps it is the work of someone who imitates Lama Zopa's style (but fails). Also, this book is HHDL's book on the negativities of Dorje Shugden, so no one knows for sure if Lama Zopa was forced to lend his name to this book. I do not think Lama Zopa would promote disharmony or discord anywhere.

How do you substantiate the stories in the forward with concrete evidences that they are true?  Surely at the time before the ban, many would have addressed these queries with Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche,  and all the lineage and high lamas?
Obviously, these stories have a very sketchy origin, and its not of how Lama Zopa would present his stories or his teachings. He would always state the source and exact time and name of place instead of just focusing on the incident alone. This style of writing is very similar to the style that is used by HHDL's website to degrade Dorje Shugden with unverifiable material. It is the same style. I am not surprised if Lama Zopa was forced to lend his name against his will for this. perhaps that also explains why he does not come out to teach as much as he used to anymore.


I am glad I am not the only one who feels this way about this foreword. It certainly does smell very fishy in more ways than one. Perhaps in due time we will find out if this foreword was really written by Lama Zopa or a shadow writer.