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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: hope rainbow on July 29, 2012, 01:45:04 AM
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I have just posted a topic on understanding GOD as a prominent concept in most religions:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2371.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2371.0)
Following that topic, I would like to ask this question in this forum:
Can Dorje Shugden be seen as a GOD in any sense relevant to the description of a God in theistic religions?
I am not refering to deva-gods or asura-gods but to "God" as a savior, as a whole, as an absolute?
What do you think?
What about this:
If we say that Dorje Shugden is GOD, then it encompasses all Buddhas as a whole, for Buddhas are all the same mind in one-ness.
If one Buddha is GOD, then aren't they all? As one?
What do you think?
Can we use the term "GOD" in Buddhism in any other way than deva-gods or asura-gods without entertaining a contradiction? Can we?
What do you think?
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I don't think Dorje Shugden or any Buddha can be seen as a GOD in any sense relevant to the description of a God in theistic religions as there are 2 important characteristics of God in theistic religion. One is that God is the almighty creater and also saviour from sin.
Dorje Shugden or any Buddha cannot be the "almighty" who are the creator/ creators of the Universe as they are not and never thought to be so. The Bible asserts that each must give an account to God one day for their actions. Despite being a loving Creator, God must also punish sin. The Buddhas do not punish us because of our sins. It is purely repercussions from our actions in the past.
The Bible says that "...all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God." All are in need of a Saviour. In the Old Testament God proclaims Himself as Saviour of His people: "I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no Savior" (Isa 43:11).
So in this way, if we say Dorje Shugden or any Buddha is the saviour, then we are indrectly saying that nirvana is possible in a short cut way by relying on a Saviour and not work on purification of negative karma and collection of merits then? Or are we then totally denying nirvana as an ultimate path since there can be saviours to help us?
To address the issue of contradiction, I read an interesting article of a talk given at a high school in Los Angeles by Kusala Bhikshu. (From: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/budgod.html (http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/budgod.html))
When the Buddha was asked how the world started, he kept silent. In the religion of Buddhism we don’t have a first cause, instead we have a never ending circle of birth and death. In this world and in all worlds, there are many beginnings and ends. The model of life used in Buddhism has no starting place... It just keeps going and going.
Now having said that... If you’re a Buddhist it’s OK to believe God was the first cause... It really doesn't go against the teachings of the Buddha, his focus was on suffering... It's also OK to believe science has the answer… Like the big bang theory, etc... Some Buddhist’s don’t even care how it all started, and that’s fine too. Knowing how the world started is not going to end your suffering, it’s just going to give you more stuff to think about.
And if you want to believe in God, as some Buddhists do, I suppose it's OK. But, Buddhist's don't believe God can end suffering. Only the teaching's of the Buddha can help us end suffering through wisdom and the activity of compassion
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God is not Buddha and Buddha is not God. Why? God implies a being that is Almighty and that can controls other beings. the closest description of God that is being described by the monotheistic religions that can be found in Buddhism is either Brahma or the Maras, as it implies an almighty creator god that is in control of everything, and that has created everything in existence but not free from greed, hatred and delusion as he still needs people to worship him to grant clemency and to grant them happiness, and those who do not worship him or do as he says will be punished severely. That is what a God is, a worldly being that is more or less, conditional with his love and help, not that there is anything wrong with it, but it is definitely not what I would want to take refuge in as my happiness will depend on his benevolence and his moods. Why would I want to subject myself to something like that? To imply surrendering to a God is to imply that we put our own happiness and responsibilities in the hands of another being, and that being might not be free of the 3 poisons and can definitely harm us.
Dorje Shugden is not a god, or rather, no enlightened being is a god because they do not seek to control us, nor do they seek our prayers to gain favor with them. they only help and assist if we follow their instructions because doing so creates the causes and creates the opportunities that that allow them to help us. It is never about gaining favor from the Buddhas, or doing something to displease the Buddhas as they are free from greed, hatred and delusion. Since a god still has greed, hatred and delusion, and a Buddha does not, how can it be that a Buddha can be a god? sure, Dorje Shugden might have the attributes of a God or he appears to be one, but he is definitely a Buddha because he has all the qualities of one.
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Dorje Shugden displays himself in a wrathful manner accomplishing the deeds of an enlightened Bodhisattva with the aims to help sentient beings attain enlightenment. Through his iconography, we can understand better how his means of enlightened activities help and generate causes for our temporal and ultimate wish for enlightenment.
As with all enlightened beings, they are not classified as Gods of the 6 realms of existence but due to their prayers and limitless love for sentient beings, they may appear to be Gods in order to reach out to us in hopes of benefitting.
Although Dorje Shugden's main activity is to protect the holy Dharma and sentient beings, if we study his biography and the teachings of his previous incarnations, we can firmly verify that the protector only wants us to gain the ultimate goal of enlightenment. What makes this 'god' happy is that we emulate his great deeds and propel ourselves to a level of awakening of our true self. Such an aspiration can only be done by a great Bodhisattva Mahasattva.
Hence, we can safely conclude that even though Dorje Shugden can bestow upon us worldly attainments, he is definitely a Buddha who would see us to the ultimatum of Enlightenment.
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As with all enlightened beings, they are not classified as Gods of the 6 realms of existence but due to their prayers and limitless love for sentient beings, they may appear to be Gods in order to reach out to us in hopes of benefitting.
We all know that in Buddhism we do not recognise there is a creator the "almighty God"... I think if there is one, the finger would have to be pointed towards oneself as we are the authors of our own karma. However, I think the English word is quite limited in its meaning and some people may use it to describe their level of appreciation and awe towards something they highly revered! So knowing better really we should not get too "hung up" over words. We should see in what type of context it is used in relation with and who is using this term.
I have heard of some people who view Buddhas as "God" like because they are omniscient and for their level which is not the scholastic type... they will most likely view Dorje Shugden as "God" of somewhat and they would worship and prayer for their wishes to come true. For them at their level this is okay and acceptable... well it is far better then worshiping a "spirit deva God" that is unenlightened. So for these types of mind set we should not disturb their thinking for it may rock their faith... so long as they are getting results from their prayers, their spiritual as well as secular is improving making their faith increase... I think it is fine.
I guess if you could see or hear Dorje Shugden in front of you, say via an oracle taking trance, it would equate to as though you are see God in front of ur eyes talking to you. It's just a matter of describing a feeling and an experience. Other then that Yes we know in Buddhism there is no such thing as a "ultimate God" the creator and the saviour of our sins :)
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i agree with what harry has said. Buddhas are buddhas and they ahve the same mind in helping people. They can appear as god or even as animals as long as it can benefits sentient beings. They can appear in any form because they do not have anymore EGO.
Personally, i feel that there is nothing wrong for lay followers who dont know abt DS from start and propitiates him as a GOD. For eg, we distributed many brochures to door to door shops and households, eventhough the brochures explained who he is but i am quite sure that there are still people who do not know who and what is a Buddha and the qualities of Buddha....
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The most fundamental difference between Buddhas and GOD is that GOD is almighty, but Buddhas is not. Buddhas are willing to help us to get out of suffering, but whether we can receive help from Buddhas is determined by our karma (past actions). Whereas in GOD, once you believe Him, you are "save". As such, we cannot equate Dorje Shugden as GOD. May be we can say Buddhas (Dorjes Shugden included of course) are all mighty (like GOD), but can't take away all our sins (bad karma) which we collected since countless lifetime.
I would actually say "Karma", in many ways, can be equated as GOD. :D If you believe in Karma, have 100% faith in him and do good, you will go to heaven; and if you do good things, it can clear away our sins (or bad karma).
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Can Dorje Shugden be seen as a GOD in any sense relevant to the description of a God in theistic religions?
I am not refering to deva-gods or asura-gods but to "God" as a savior, as a whole, as an absolute?
GOD as absolute creator and the be all and end all is rather contradictory to Buddhism.
Although an absolute creator God is absent in most forms of Buddhism, veneration or worship of the Buddha and other Buddhas does play a major role in all forms of Buddhism. In Buddhism all beings may strive for Buddhahood. Throughout the schools of Buddhism, it is taught that being born in the human realm is best for realizing full enlightenment, whereas being born as a god presents one with too much pleasure and too many distractions to provide any motivation for serious insight meditation. Doctrines of theosis have played an important role in Christian thought, and there are a number of theistic variations of Hinduism where a practitioner can strive to become the godhead (for example Vedanta), but from a Buddhist perspective, such attainment would be disadvantageous to the attainment of nirvana,since it may possibly be based on mental reification. Some forms of buddhist meditation, however, share more similarities with the concept of henosis.
In Buddhism, one venerates Buddhas and sages for their virtues, sacrifices, and struggles for perfect enlightenment, and as teachers who are embodiments of the Dharma.
In Buddhism, this supreme victory of the human ability for perfect gnosis is celebrated in the concept of human saints known as Arhats which literally means "worthy of offerings" or "worthy of worship" because this sage overcomes all defilements and obtains perfect gnosis to obtain Nirvana.
Tibetan schools of Buddhism speak of two truths, absolute and relative. Relative truth is regarded as the chain of ongoing causes and conditions that define experience within samsara, and ultimate truth is synonymous with emptiness. There are many philosophical viewpoints, but unique to the Vajrayana perspective is the expression (by meditators) of emptiness in experiential language, as opposed to the language of negation used by scholars to undo any conceptual fixation that would stand in the way of a correct understanding of emptiness. For example, one teacher from the Tibetan Kagyu school of Buddhism, Kalu Rinpoche, elucidates: "...pure mind cannot be located, but it is omnipresent and all-penetrating; it embraces and pervades all things. Moreover, it is beyond change, and its open nature is indestructible and atemporal."
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What about this:
If we say that Dorje Shugden is GOD, then it encompasses all Buddhas as a whole, for Buddhas are all the same mind in one-ness.
If one Buddha is GOD, then aren't they all? As one?
An interesting question, thank you. I do like this.
A lot has already been said DS not being a god in the sense of a saviour / creator, which I agree with. So I won't talk about that.
Your question here is interesting though and I think perhaps what you are referring to would be more aptly described as "divinity" than "godliness"? Yes, ultimately, the Buddhamind is formless and the mind of one Buddha is equal to the mind of other - the same level of wisdom, compassion, omniscience. In that sense, There is oneness. Not that they are one single entity, but in the interchangeability, since their abilities, omniscience, wisdom is all equal.
Perhaps it is also helpful to think about what it is that we, as spiritual practitioners, hope to receive in our relationship with "God" (whoever that is). I think it is safe to say that ultimately, everyone wants happiness, freedom from suffering, the wisdom and clarity to know how to handle situations to bring more peace and happiness to themselves. This is what we all hope to achieve in anything we do - whether spiritual or secular.
Dorje Shugden doesn't "save" us in the exact sense that a monotheistic god does, but he does still "save" us in some sense - from the full effects of our karma, for example. By holding a part of our karma from ripening, or keeping it at bay, we are able to then simultaneously engage in his practices (and teachings) to purify, collect more merit and eventually find the methods to free ourselves. Better than the traditional notions of a God who saves us, THIS "god" gives us the very same powers as himself to be able to free ourselves. Now if that isn't something worth taking refuge in, I don't know what godliness is.
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"Gautama Buddha explicitly rejects the existence of a creator deity, refuses to endorse any views on creation and states that questions on the origin of the world are worthless. The non-adherence to the notion of an omnipotent creator deity or a prime mover is seen by many as a key distinction between Buddhism and other religions."
Rather, Buddhism emphasizes the system of causal relationships underlying the universe (pratitya samutpada) which constitute the natural order (dharma). No dependence of phenomena on a supernatural reality is asserted in order to explain the behaviour of matter. According to the doctrine of the Buddha a human being must study Nature (dhamma vicaya) in order to attain personal wisdom (prajna) regarding the nature of things (dharma). In Buddhism the sole aim of spiritual practice is the complete alleviation of stress in samsara,[7][8] called nirvana.
Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism)
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My opinion of this subject is similar to those written here and no Buddha, Bodhisattva, Arhat or Enlightened Dharma Protector is viewed by me as the almighty God as defined here.
Buddhism teaches that we are the recipient of suffering due to our own negative actions and that no enlightened being or God is responsible for that. But there are some Buddhists who go around saying that they may be harmed or fall ill or their life shortened if people continue with the practice of Dorje Shugden. It is understandable if this is feared by Buddhists in general but when it is said by highly realized beings, who are believed to be one with Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, then it seems that enlightened beings may also be harmed. Could it be their karma has not been completely purified and they are not really enlightened as people believed?
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Selfish or Selfless. We can check by reaching by our own conclusion if He is selfish or selfless. I personally will think that he is a Buddha/Selfless else i wouldnt be here typing all the way. Thats is why Dorje Shugden can be yidam and protector as the nature of His mind is no difference from a Buddha. Specifically a GOD is referred to as still retaining a level of selfishness as they are not enlightened yet and still residing in Samsara like all of us. But to the road to enlightenment if they learn and practice the dharma.
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I have just posted a topic on understanding GOD as a prominent concept in most religions:
[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2371.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2371.0[/url])
Following that topic, I would like to ask this question in this forum:
Can Dorje Shugden be seen as a GOD in any sense relevant to the description of a God in theistic religions?
I am not refering to deva-gods or asura-gods but to "God" as a savior, as a whole, as an absolute?
What do you think?
What about this:
If we say that Dorje Shugden is GOD, then it encompasses all Buddhas as a whole, for Buddhas are all the same mind in one-ness.
If one Buddha is GOD, then aren't they all? As one?
What do you think?
Can we use the term "GOD" in Buddhism in any other way than deva-gods or asura-gods without entertaining a contradiction? Can we?
What do you think?
The Buddha has taught that there is no such thing as an absolute entity and therefore Dorje Shugden isnt a "absolute god", but he is an enlightened entity, and his mindstream is the same as all the Buddhas who are enlightened as well and to petition Dorje Shugden would be the same as petitioning to an enlightened being - in some texts, he is described as one with Manjushri while others describe him as one with Avalokitehsvara, and in his biography there was one point where he was one with Guhyasamaja, showing that he is an enlightened being.
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Is Dorje Shugden God? With that question in mind, I have another question.
Are we all God? This is without relationship to the Gods and Semi God realms that we talk about in Buddhism. But God in the entirety of the highest of all and the creator of all.
In believing in the Dharma, Dorje Shugden is not god in that sense. In believing in Shakyamuni Buddha's teaching we are all of the Buddha nature but contaminated by the conditions of Karma and Samsara, but enlightenment is possible to all sentient beings with great efforts on our part. Shakyamuni Buddha was enlightenment in His human form, proof for all human beings.
With the above points of view, then Dorje Shugden is not God per se but the almighty Buddha who is awakened and above all learnings of the nature of the ultimate truth.
Let us have your comments.
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Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche clarified this.
From the point of view of God being an omnipotent permanent being that is the creator of all, Buddhists disagree because everything that appears to mind is not separate from mind but is an effect created by causes established by actions, therefore mind is the creator of all.
From the point of view of God being formless and all-pervasive, because mind is formless and all-pervasive, Buddhists believe in God.
So Dondrup Shugden, from the latter view we can understand we are all God creating countless realities. Dorje Shugden is not a sentient being of the God realm in samsara, but being a Buddha with an all-pervasive mind he is fully conscious of - his Dharmakaya or omniscient wisdom, he emanates countless phenomena in samsara and pure realms. Just as we are God, so is Dorje Shugden. This actually points us to the the subtleties of Guru Yoga where through our effort to meditate on mahamudra instructions we realize the nature of ourselves, the Guru, and all phenomena are not so different after all. We are very fortunate to have the Mahamudra instructions, but the opportunity to realize them will be lost sooner than we think, so now is the time.
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Wow what a great explanation, thank you Chokyi Dorje. However the point is that the God that is being believed was the creator of all is not a concept that Buddhist believes but only in the form of the mind which is formless and all pervasive then this theory is believed.
I think I can understand that.
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The Buddha never considered himself to be a god . In contrary , he has proven and shown by examples of himself to others that all being can eventually be enlightened. Only after his death was he exalted to god status by some of his followers, though not all of his followers viewed him that way. Buddhists believe in the existence of an Enlightened being, who vows to save all sentient beings out of suffering in samsara. According to the Buddhist ideology, anyone can enlighten himself by undertaking a method of mental discipline and a code of conduct. In other words Dorje Shugden is regarded as the incarnation of the five Buddha families!
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There is one simple mental experiment that we can do regarding the "almighty creator God". If for a moment we imagine that there is no human, would there be a need for God to exist. Or does he twiddle his fingers everyday with nothing to do? The same applies for the angels and devils that God "created". So if we postulate further, then we realize that it cannot be that God created the Universe and populate only 0.00000000.............001% of the Universe to praise him or let His plan pan? Why not the entire Universe? If you built a palace, won't you live in more than one room?
It follows that then we have only one choice and that is we created "God" that is Omnipotent. Hence, it also follows that we are Omnipotent. How then that we are ignorant. It follows then we are ignorant of the fact that we are omnipotent because we only focus on this one self similar to the fact that we only talk about the Earth and not the other 99999999........999%.
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Oh yes. Dorje Shugden is not a GOD. He is a realize being and on Earth we label Him as a Buddha but conceptually is has realize the Ultimate truth. He has not a single pore that has a self written on him. Only for us because we are limited in capacity has to have Him in some kind of form that is easier for us to see and visualise. Otherwise an enlightened beings is no being but is everything and is omnipresence.
By definition, there is no such thing as Omnipotent.
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If the word GOD means the way you explained it. Then Yes, Dorje Shugden is a GOD, all Buddha's minds are connected as one and they are equal. If Dorje Shugden is God, so is Buddha Shakyamuni, Lama Tsongkhapa, Manjushri and all the enlightened beings. It is a probability that Jesus might be an enlightened Buddha too. As it has been said by Buddha Shakymuni, there are more than 84,000 ways to teach the Dharma so that is why we need many many different Buddhas to teach the Dharma because there are also many different types of people too. I hope you got your answer through reading this comment. Thank you for reading.
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I think Dorje Shugden being a Buddha he gives us methods to help us along the spiritual path and also how to live a better life and has the wisdom and compassion to guide sentient beings along the path, unlike a God that either just punishes or rewards. But having studied buddhism we know there are no free lunches in this world, that if a supernatural being 'answers' our prayer they would have to tap into karma that is stored for a future occurrence.
I suppose with Dorje Shugden with his unlimited compassion and wisdom, and unobstructed seeing the past/present and future, even though he taps into our karma to help us he knows for sure we will not be severely impacted and that by helping us it benefits us to engage in dharma practice. Helps from worldly gods, although such beings may even have good intention, because their clairvoyance is limited they wisdom may not factor in all possibilities. So help from worldly gods will be a shadow of what Dorje Shugden can help us with.
The people who pray to Dorje Shudgen out of desperation, beings who may have quite a lot of suffering may view Dorje SHudgen as a 'God; who fulfill their wishes, especially if they do not know for Dorje Shudgen to be able to help they also must have the karma to be helped and especially if they have not spend so much time learning about the workings of Karma, Dorje Shugden is their saviour god it would seem to them. Not only that I also think that people who have low merits and lots of karma and suffering, they may need the help of a Dharma protector like Dorje Shugden to help them. A dharmapala with the power of 1000 dharmapala.
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From my limited understanding, we can never hope to be God in other religions. We can only hope for salvation. In Buddhism we practice so that we can be Buddhas ourselves. There's always mention of the phrase "Buddha within us". Other religions does not subscribe to that. Guess that's from the shallowest view.