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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Galen on June 26, 2012, 04:36:49 AM

Title: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Galen on June 26, 2012, 04:36:49 AM
Take a look at this! Nuns from Ganden Choeling Nunnery destroyed the statue of Dorje Shugden upon clarification from the Dalai Lama. How could nuns behave so badly to Buddha images especially since it is their Dharma Protector? It is utter disrespect when they drag the their Dorje Shugden statue on a rope tied to his neck, down the streets! It saddens me to watch this piece of news.

Even if they do not want to practice this protector practice anymore, they could have respectfully take down the statue and donate it to some other monastery who is still practicing. I am sure the other monasteries are willing to accept it. They do not need to destroy it!

This may be done only to be in the good books of the Dalai Lama.

The Dalai Lama's Actions Part 2: Destroying the Gelugpa, Kagyu and Nyingma Traditions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsS_l-sYCy8#)

After watching this news, do you think the Nuns should act in such a manner?
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Dhiman on June 26, 2012, 07:47:22 AM
Statues of Buddha represents the quality and supreme teachings of the Buddha and must be respected at all times. Being naked in front of the Buddha and pointing your feet to Buddha statues are all acts of disrespect, not to mention desecrating the statue by breaking, stepping and spitting on it. Also, it is understood that desecrating a Buddha statue is considered as the same as stealing under the great Five Percepts.

Yes I believe the act of desecrating the holy statue by the nuns is very wrong. Even when the Dalai Lama approved of their suggestion, he actually gave correct instructions to dispose the statue which the nuns clearly did not follow. As mentioned in the interview part, the ritual did not go well because it was their first time doing it and the statue was destroyed in haste.

Additionally, disposing the statue does not require extreme acts such as spitting and sitting on it. The sangha should not be performing such actions which are extremely rude even on a general level since it is an act derived from scorn. They did not just disparage Dorje Shugden, but also all the great masters that consecrated the statue.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: shugdenprotect on June 26, 2012, 08:11:12 AM
When I saw the title of this thread and watched the images, the first thought that came to mind is: we are really in degenerate times! Yes, it was normal for us to expect more from the sangha community who has committed to the honor of holding vows. In fact, nuns uphold more vows than monks (356 vows compared to 253 vows for monks)…making their moral discipline (at the very least), theoretically of a higher level. The poor behavior by these nuns of our time is a glaring reflection of the degeneration: Proving the accuracy of Lord Buddha’s prophesy.

Please do not get me wrong. I am not saying that it is OK for the nuns to behave in this manner. What I am trying to convey that the teachings of Lord Buddha’s omniscient mind is always right, thus the Dharma stating that Dorje Shugden being the perfect Protector of our time due to our Karmic link to Him must also be nothing but right.

So conclusion: seeing these nuns engage in such non-virtuous actions due to their three poisons should propel us to look deeper at the causes and move forward with solution oriented actions such as promote Dorje Shugden to the world even more fervently.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: vajrastorm on June 26, 2012, 08:46:14 AM
A statue of a Buddha is the symbol of the Enlightened Body of the Buddha. Hence nuns who are schooled and steeped in a tradition of respect for symbols of the Enlightened Body, Speech and Mind of the Buddha, should never ever have treated a Buddha statue in any disrespectful way.

This desecration of a statue of a Buddha, spitting on it  and smashing it and throwing remains in a garbage bin bespeaks insanity, a mind that's completely shrouded in benighted ignorance! More so when this Statue of a beloved Buddha had been so reverently consecrated by great Masters, like Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche(  respectively the junior and senior tutors of HH Dalai Lama himself), Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Kyabje Rato Rinpoche.

 
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: DSFriend on June 26, 2012, 08:55:39 AM

This may be done only to be in the good books of the Dalai Lama.

After watching this news, do you think the Nuns should act in such a manner?

I do not think any religious objects should be treated in a disrespectful way. Even if we do not believe it in, the right behavior is to still give it the respect as many others believes in the faith.

With that said, do you think the karma will be heavy for such actions IF it is the instructions of their Guru? Would the karma be heavier to disrespect the guru or the statue?
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Dorje Pakmo on June 26, 2012, 11:53:45 AM
While the Karmic repercussion of destroying a Buddha statue is serious enough, to further add on to their already unforgivable act, these nuns who are suppose to have taken vows spits and sits on it before breaking the holy statue into pieces before throwing it into a garbage dump?! Not very nun like, if you ask me. This is a Buddha Statue consecrated by His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche, Kyabje Song Rinpoche and Kyabje Rato Rinpoche we are talking about! Two out of the four are HHDL’s Guru who was also the founder of that very nunnery. Unbelievable!  :-\

Even if HHDL asked to show support to the ban, there is no need to destroy the statue. The act of destroying this statue show direct disrespect to the founders of the very nunnery they are taking shelter in. As explained in the video, even if the statue was to be destroyed, there should be a proper ritual ceremony. This act of utter disrespect and mindlessness is obviously attempt to show HHDL that they are a 110% supportive of the ban and a ugly try to get in the good books of HHDL.

The statue consecrated by great Lamas who founded and named the nunnery. How blinded by ignorance and anger can one be? To have done such act. Never mind if you cannot repay the kindness of the great Lamas, what happened to respect for their items? It is a great shame that this is happening among fellow Buddhist. These people will be the most disturbed ones as soon as the ban is lifted.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Tenzin Malgyur on June 26, 2012, 12:48:09 PM
The incident of the nuns dragging the Dorje Shugden statue by a string tied to the neck happened in Dhramsala on a public place. Those who done the same actions to a stray animal would be scorn, what more a holy statue of a Buddha consecrated by the tutor of the Dalai Lama, who is also a high lama. Dhramsala is such a holy place, hosting HHDL official residence and offices, and so many other monasteries and temples in exile from Tibet. One can only imagine what kind of image those nuns were potraying to the laymen on the streets, witnessing such acts by the holy sangha members. Are we not taught to regard any image of a Buddha as an actual Buddha? It is also very disturbing to watch monks in the video stoning another monastery. All this is done in the name of wanting to get in the good books of HHDL?
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Manjushri on June 26, 2012, 01:15:31 PM

I do not think any religious objects should be treated in a disrespectful way. Even if we do not believe it in, the right behavior is to still give it the respect as many others believes in the faith.

With that said, do you think the karma will be heavy for such actions IF it is the instructions of their Guru? Would the karma be heavier to disrespect the guru or the statue?

In the video, HHDL did say that a proper ritual has to be done before destroying the statue. What is the proper ritual and was it even done? Maybe the ritual would have been to reduce the karmic consequences of destroying a Buddha Statue?

Yes indeed, it is said in the 50 verses that if one doesn't follow the instructions of their guru, the consequences are much heavier than destroying a Buddha statue. But in this case, did the nuns carry out the instructions of their guru to the T? I doubt HHDL would have asked the nuns to step on, spit, sit and burn the statue?

If that is the case, the implications of such actions are much much heavier. I feel that the nuns took it a step too far. Not only did they destroy the blessings of a holy statue, they destroyed the blessings of their lineage lamas!
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: pgdharma on June 26, 2012, 02:08:14 PM
I don't think it's right to treat a holy/religious object in such disrespectful manner.  I feel the nuns have broken their nun vows and have gone a step too far by behaving and acting this way. Why are they so spiteful? If they do not believe in Dorje Shugden and wanted the statue to be destroyed, why can't they do the proper ritual and disposed in a proper manner. It so disgusting that they behaved this way, dragging, stepping, sitting, spitting, destroying and dumping the statue onto a dumping site. Due to their ignorance and anger, they not only destroyed the statue but also the blessings of the lineage Masters. Their karmic repercussions for such actions will be so heavy.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: DharmaDefender on June 26, 2012, 03:39:55 PM
I saw this and I was shocked. People playing into politics just to look good, and abandoning their practices for this. Sad.

Did you lot see this first part?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/snqMBPGZzQA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I found it interesting how they accused Dudjom Rinpoche of being a Chinese spy, but said nothing about the Dalai Lama siding with the Chinese govts pick of the Karmapa. Odd.

Manjushri, dont think proper rituals are all that important or effective anymore when you have the intent to destroy Dorje Shugdens statue. Just think about it- could the Mindroling Lamas rituals destroy Dorje Shugden during the 5th Dalai Lamas time? No because he didnt have the karma to be destroyed, since hes not a spirit. Since he has no karma to be destroyed, he has to be enlightened... which means no matter what rituals are done, if the intent to destroy the statue is malicious, the destroyers will still reap heavy negative karma. When ones intent is malicious, no amount of proper rituals can pacify the amount of negative karma you will get from attempting to destroy a statue of an enlightened deity.

Saddest thing is, if anything shite happens to them, the nuns will probably be daft enough to blame Dorje Shugden for taking revenge on them, as though theyve never learn the concept of karma.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Positive Change on June 26, 2012, 05:06:05 PM
Nuns or monks are the Sangha, they are one of the Three Jewels, and I would certainly mean no disrespect to whomever wears the robe of an ordained person. That would be going against my refuge vows!

Yet, seeing how some ordained people behave challenges my perception.

So I wonder, what "makes" someone an ordained person? Is it the robe or is it the vows? I would say surely the vows, and not just appearances like a piece of clothing...

So what is there to say about ordained Buddhist nuns or monks when they destroy a Buddha image, are they still Sangha? By logic, they cannot be, can they? I am asking and searching for something that would make sense. Surely Sangha should not behave in such a manner but is that merely my preconceived notion of something which is after all is within the confines of samsara. They are Sangha and should know better but not all Sangha are perfect or they would be called Buddhas!
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Vajraprotector on June 26, 2012, 05:49:30 PM
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso who is a strong proponent of Dorje Shugden said that Dorje Shugden is Buddha in:
An Interview with Geshe Kelsang Gyatso - http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1319 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1319)
Youtube video - Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's Talk on Dorje Shugden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2r2YHNOy3E#)

Lama Zopa said:
"My root guru, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche; Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru’s root guru; His Holiness Song Rinpoche, from whom many of the older students received the initiation of Shugden; and the previous incarnation of Gomo Rinpoche, who has a strong connection with Istituto Lama Tsongkhapa, here in Italy, all promoted the practice of Shugden. They were all aspects of the Dharmakaya."

If so many great masters were wrong, then why still believe in anything these masters teach at all? Why become nuns and study the commentaries, prayers and teachings that have been passed down through these Lamas who are now wrong?

Even His Holiness the Dalai Lama wrote praise to Dorje Shugden, in fact His Holiness wrote two! He cannot possibly make mistake twice?
Prayer by the 5th Dalai Lama to Gyelchen Dorje Shugden - http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=341 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=341)
Melody of the Unceasing Vajra by the 14th Dalai Lama - http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=346 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=346)
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: LosangKhyentse on June 26, 2012, 10:08:36 PM
These nuns are quite misguided. I feel sorry for them.

They will regret and one day soon apologize to King Dorje Shugden.

TK
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Carpenter on June 27, 2012, 01:49:51 AM
There are many people who will be craving for attention, when there are situation happen, they will kind of over acting to show that they are more superior than the others, so when Dalai Lama announce the ban of Dorje Shugden, those nuns who assume this will make Dalai Lama happy or to show their capability of carrying out his likes or don’t likes.

It is very sad to see this situation, these nun’s action shows how much Dharma has degenerated, even 2,500 years ago, Buddha Shakyamuni has already prophesized that the real meaning of Dharma will be twisted and the nuns action clearly shows that.

There is no disappearing of the true Dhamma until a counterfeit Dhamma arises in the world. Once a counterfeit Dhamma arises then there is a disappearing of the true Dhamma. It is when, here in the order itself, hollow and foolish persons arise that they make this true Dhamma disappear. Baha'u'llah has confirmed that this false, counterfeit Dhamma is present in the world and is replacing the true Dhamma. In the Baha'i writings it is stated that the true Dhamma has been replaced by a desire for material things:

Today, all the peoples of the world are indulging in self-interest and exert the utmost effort and endeavor to promote their own material interests. They are worshiping themselves and not the divine reality. They seek diligently their own benefit and not the common weal. This is because they are captives of the world of nature and unaware of the divine teachings, of the bounty, of the kingdom and of the Sun of Truth.

These prophecies appear to describe accurately the present condition of the world with materialism, consumerism, promiscuity, drug problems and increasing violence and conflict. These problems are ravaging every society and undermining the pillars of all social structures.
Source from:
http://www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/buddhasa.htm (http://www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/buddhasa.htm)
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Carpenter on June 27, 2012, 01:51:45 AM
Nuns or monks are the Sangha, they are one of the Three Jewels, and I would certainly mean no disrespect to whomever wears the robe of an ordained person. That would be going against my refuge vows!

Yet, seeing how some ordained people behave challenges my perception.

So I wonder, what "makes" someone an ordained person? Is it the robe or is it the vows? I would say surely the vows, and not just appearances like a piece of clothing...

So what is there to say about ordained Buddhist nuns or monks when they destroy a Buddha image, are they still Sangha? By logic, they cannot be, can they? I am asking and searching for something that would make sense. Surely Sangha should not behave in such a manner but is that merely my preconceived notion of something which is after all is within the confines of samsara. They are Sangha and should know better but not all Sangha are perfect or they would be called Buddhas!

Wearing robes does not make someone a sangha, because a real sangha do practice Dharma from within their heart, their sincerity. Many monks and nuns nowadays are here to gain materialism, I saw how someone wear monk’s robe to ask for money, and after that they use those money for themselves,

To be monks or nuns is to act like one even before wearing the robes, it should be the main quality that one’s should be carrying since the beginning, and then wearing the robe is to firm up their holding of the vows.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: dsiluvu on June 27, 2012, 03:15:10 AM
The nuns shows us that the signs of degenerate times has begun as the Buddha predicted...
So whether or not they are nuns... it clearly does not matter because even nuns, monks, priests and many many religious representatives have shown us bad examples throughout history. As the saying goes... looks can be deceiving. 

During this degenerate third age, it is believed that people will be unable to attain enlightenment through the word of Sakyamuni Buddha, and society will become morally corrupt. In Buddhist thought, during the Age of Dharma Decline the teachings of the Buddha will still be correct, but people will no longer be capable of following them.

 
The Buddha Shakyamuni has already predicted 2500 years ago that this would happen. He has foretold that the true teachings will gradually lose their clarity and then disappear. Few people will reach enlightenment and even fewer will be able to reach enlightenment in one lifetime. This will proceed into darkness of times, when the truthof things will not be seen anymore, until very far in time, a new Buddha, BuddhaMaitreya, will appear. Thus is his prediction and the signs are all over.The Buddha called these the “degeneration times”. This is so, because these times aremarked by 5 degenerations.

1) Decrease of lifespan.
2) Increase of wrong views.
3) Increase of disturbing emotions.
4) Increase of mental afflictions.
5) The prevalence of bad times, including war, famine and disease.

First: the decrease of lifespan.
We proud ourselves to have lengthened general lifespan from maybe 30 years some 500years ago, till 70 years in modern times. However, looked at it closely, this is not muchof an achievement. In the third millennium BCE, the traditional wisdom in China spokeof the people of old, who could reach the age of 100 years without showing any signs of aging (Huang Di Neijing Suwen, The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine). Alreadysince then, our lifespan has gradually been reducing. During the Middle Ages, peoplelived in dark, ignorant and extreme unhygienic times. What achievement is it really, tocorrect this little by little by artificially expanding the lifespan by using medicaltreatments.
 
The general trend towards the future will still not be to have no aging signs by the age of 100 years. From this perspective, we are degenerating, not progressing.

Second: increase in wrong views. Everywhere around, the world is filled with misconceptions. We corrupt our spiritual view by superficial scientific endeavors and materialistic preferences. The truth of our views is shallow and never reaches the point of deep awareness, where all truth stemsfrom. This wrongness of view has been accelerated by the Industrial Revolution and its consumerist value system.

Third: increase of disturbing emotions.
People are driven by ignorance, anger, desire, jealousy and pride, so much, that they cannot even come clear on their own faults. Who is willing to admit his ownshortcomings nowadays and to seek to correct them? Mostly people behave rudely and do not consider the needs of others.

Fourth: increase of mental afflictions.
It seems very common for people to lose proper perspective on life, themselves andothers. Mental health is increasingly a worrisome issue in modern medicine. Many lose their mind in undue dreaming, sickness or disturbance.Fifth: prevalence of bad times.Our televisions are dedicated to war, disease, famine or any other natural or man madedisasters. We do not need statistics to realize that bad times do prevail in our world rightnow, whether we like it or not. Because of all this, it is more and more important that we dedicate ourselves to not get lost in the degenerations. We should encourage each other to seek and find out whatever is remaining of the true spirituality and its traditions, and to cherish them.The degeneration of the times should not stop us from looking for spiritual truth. On the contrary, it should motivate us to make a bigger effort. There are still blessed ways to find the Path, how ever more rare. While this is still so, do not waste your precious human life and seek to find, right now!

His teachings will not deviate from that of previous Buddhas, except for an interesting tradition that he will not teach any esoteric Tantras (most likely hinting that Maitreya's mission will in general be more effective than Shakyamuni's). This does not show a difference in the perfection of liberative techniques of the two Buddhas, rather a difference in the evolutionary stage of the human beings on the planet (Shakyamuni Buddha taught at a time of violence and widespread militarism, and had to turn to the martial qualities of toughness, ascetism and determination toward the pursuit of enlightenment.


Shakyamuni Buddha also predicted that those who followed his teachings would be reborn in the first circle of Maitreya's entourage and would be able to complete the spiritual path under Maitreya's guidance.

Fearful is the act these nuns have committed for it seems like no.2 - 4 happened... what lies ahead of them at the time of death. They've broken their Guru samaya, destroy a Buddha image, and cause schism. This act will surely bring them to a not so nice realm following the teachings of Lord Buddha.

Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Carpenter on June 27, 2012, 05:27:09 AM
Thus resulting in 2,500 years during which all of the Five Disappearances must occur. The year 2500 of the Buddhist Era was celebrated in AD 1956. This ties in very well with AD 1943 as the last possible date for the appearance of the Metteyya Buddha. Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah, who appeared in the century before the expiration of this deadline, was the Metteyya Buddha.

The Five Disappearances refer to the gradual disappearance of the Dhamma from the world. This is something which the Buddha knew would happen since everything in this world is transient and changes.

He describes the gradual fading of the efficacy of his teachings until even the 'true sacred relics (Dh'atu), not receiving reverence and honor, will go to places where they can receive them. If we consider the situation in the Buddhist world at the time of the advent of Baha'u'll'ah in the middle of the nineteenth century, we will note that all of this prophecy had been fulfilled by that time.

Buddhism had disappeared from native soil in India, the sacred relics had gone from India ' to places where they can receive reverence and honor in Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand and elsewhere in the Buddhist world. The scripture and the Dhamma could even be said to have disappeared from the Buddhist community, when Colonel Olcott arrived in Sri Lanka in the last half of the nineteenth century, he could find no monks who knew Pali and could read the scriptures.

Yes, this is very sad indeed, many of us has created many wrong views in Buddha's teaching, we even can twist the essence of teaching easily to suit our desire and attachment. in years to come, Buddhism will be even worse than now, if we do not hold on tight on the teaching and transform now, how we expect to change in future. So we should stop giving excuses and do something right now.

To preserve the Dharma teaching, we do not hope for others to do it, because if everyone think like that, nothing will happen, we must do it first and inspire the people around.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: michaela on June 27, 2012, 09:50:59 AM
I think I have responded to similar post with the exact same topic.  My view remains the same we should view the problems as it is, a destruction of a statue, and not turn it into hate crime or condemnation. 

When a copy of Koran was flushed down the toilet by a US soldier in Guantanamo bay in year 2005, it has caused international outraged.  Many religious leaders condemned the act.  Only one person, a Buddhist monk of Theravadan tradition, Ajahn Bram, gave a reasonable answer.  He said that if this happened to Buddhist bible (being flushed down the toilet), he will call a plumber.

Again, we should focus on exposing the truth and arguing why the ban should be removed and why DS is the appropriate protector in this degenerate time, and not exaggerate and focus on what a group of nun did back in year 1996 - that is destroying a statue.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: dsiluvu on June 27, 2012, 11:44:47 AM
Michaela.... Sometimes people need to hear such stories and accounts of what happened that makes us want to enthusiastically "exposing the truth". I find these type of topics intriguing not because we want to focus on the past... but it can also be a inspiration to talk about the "truth". Depending on your perspective really ;) I don't see it as negative at all, in fact an inspiration to want to do MORE! SPREAD the TRUTH!!!

Here we are just talking about the consequences of such a horrible act, which I find is interesting to know so that whoever who reads it here, they realise that such an act is indeed a negative one with negative repercussion and with such knowledge they will be more aware as well on how to NOT disrespect a "statue" be it a Buddha statue or a "worldly" God one... In fact if Dorje Shugden was "worldly God", they would indeed be in bigger trouble because a "worldly God" will in fact get angry and befall upon them trouble... So in a way... lucky for them Dorje Shugden is Buddha Manjushri and would not take revenge.

But yes I do agree with u Michaela... we need to EXPOSE the TRUTH and educate people on Dorje Shugden and spread the teachings.

Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: shugdenpromoter on June 27, 2012, 01:07:31 PM
These nuns are quite misguided. I feel sorry for them.

They will regret and one day soon apologize to King Dorje Shugden.

TK


I agree with TK that the nuns were misguided. Not all nuns were involved but those which were not involved did NOT stop the others from that awful action.

A lot have change since 1996. I have heard from the Trijang Ladrang monks in Shar Gaden last year that the nuns from Gaden Choeling Nunnery do drop by Trijang Ladrang to make offerings to Trijnag Rinpoche's stupa, of course discreetly in the middle of the night. And these has been frequent.

As I said earlier, a lot have change BUT not enough for HH to retract the ban. We need to promote Shugden more, highlight the controversial, the human rights aspect of this religion prosecution and etc. The pressure is there but NOT enough.

Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: vegeing on June 28, 2012, 04:42:23 PM
Gen-la Dekyang sharing is very truth. Dorje Shugden love & care it is pure & wide, and continuously.
Even our self also can promise our children & partner, our love can be forever never end.

Dorje Shugden, bring us love & harmony.

May Dorje Shugden BAN remove ASAP , May the practice can reach more people & safe their future!
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Carpenter on June 29, 2012, 12:57:27 AM
Gen-la Dekyang sharing is very truth. Dorje Shugden love & care it is pure & wide, and continuously.
Even our self also can promise our children & partner, our love can be forever never end.

Dorje Shugden, bring us love & harmony.

May Dorje Shugden BAN remove ASAP , May the practice can reach more people & safe their future!



Yes, I totally agree with your statement, and I believe that these nuns are misguided, the actions of a monk and nun today shows how much degenerated the Dharma is, even inside Dharma itself there is misguiding,  leads to an action that is totally opposite of what Dharma is teaching, we need help on our delusions, we definitely needed help very much, because we alone don’t have the ability to overcome this.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2120.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2120.0)

The above is a link is a short video clip of Dharma talk session given by Genla Dekyong at Manjushri centre in England. He did mentioned how much delusion we have today and advice us to seek for Dorje Shugden’s help to help us in our Dharma Practice. For anyone who is anti-Shugden, I hope you can watch this video link and see what type of motivation they have here.

Please listen with an open heart and give a fair chance to see for what Dorje Shugden Practitioner is doing and will be doing before taking such extreme actions, don’t you think this is fairer to them and everyone else that are practicing Dharma sincerely?
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: biggyboy on June 29, 2012, 04:00:33 AM
Even to date, I still do not understand nor to perceive what and why the Sangha doing something that is against the teachings and the law of karma?  Aren’t they should have more understanding and done much contemplation to say the least for they are one of the 3 Jewels that lay people look up to and seek refuge?  Yet they jump and act according to what was told to make their Guru happy? Is this Guru Devotion to say the least?  Yet it still don’t jive and logical to drag or destroy a holy image?! No respect. Just can’t imagine the huge repercussion that they would face.  Very sad to see this degeneration marks and we are in fact, approaching the end of life span shortening period which we can see so prevalent now as predicted by Buddha 2500 years ago. I have chanced upon the following site and would like to add on to what dsiluvu has pointed out on the 5 degenerations.

http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no2a.htm (http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no2a.htm)

....Approaching the end of the life-span shortening period in the cycle of each small kalpa, i.e. when the average life-expectancy of human beings is reduced to 10 years, the extremely evil nature of people's minds will bring about "Three Small Calamities". These small calamities are:

(i) Calamity of war: The people of this time are lawless, irresponsible, poisonously hateful and instinctively murderous. At an instant, the people can pick up a leaf and use it as a knife. They can utilise any item at will as a deadly weapon for killing. Between human beings, there are not only strife and fighting, but also cruel injuring and killing. Human life is worth less than that of ants and insects. At the end of the life-span shortening period of the kalpa's cycle, such calamities take place frequently. Occurrences are intermittent, each lasting a period of 7 days.

(ii) Calamity of plague: As a result of the evil nature of people's minds, pestilence, plagues and epidemic diseases are commonplace. People suffer from a myriad of incurable illnesses. Because people's minds are poisoned with evil, their internal organs also become intoxicated. Moreover, their exhalations are so venomous that people die immediately upon contact. These disasters occur frequently at the end of the life-span shortening period of the kalpa's cycle, approximately lasting 7 months and 7 days.

(iii) Calamity of famine: When people's minds are exceedingly vicious and evil, unfavourable seasonal changes result. Lengthy droughts occur, destroying the harvests. People suffer from hunger. Even feeding on roots and bark will not sustain life. There is no livestock remaining. People resort to cannibalism. The duration of such calamity is longer, persisting for 7 years, 7 months and 7 days. During this period, there is almost 100% human mortality by starvation.
Nowadays the average life-span of humankind does not exceed 60 to 70 years. The public morals of the present society are degenerating. The minds of people are no longer as pure as before. People tend toward wickedness, and ridiculing the virtuous. The virtuous are harmed, while the villainous are revered. If, the average life-span of humans shortens by one year in each century, by the time the life span drops to 10 years, the above-mentioned Three Small Calamities will take place.

In recent years, natural disasters have become commonplace on earth. These are the effects from the human mind turning toward evil. On reaching the end of the life-span shortening period of the kalpa's cycle, one can well imagine the retributive sufferings that humanity has to face. Other religions may consider this period to be the "End of the World". But in fact, it is not so. On the contrary, it can only be said to be the final phase of a small kalpa. At the end of this small kalpa, people will have encountered the extreme of all suffering. Meanwhile, the minority of people who have been cultivating and performing virtuous deeds for aeons of lifetimes are repulsed by the immoral state of society. They withdraw and live in solitude in the mountains. They only just manage to escape the calamities and survive. In time, when people have suffered enough and are seeking deliverance, these survivors will emerge and return to society. They will advise and encourage whomever they encounter, so that these people may learn to lead wholesome lives and perform virtuous deeds. As a result, people are inspired to develop their virtuous minds, conduct and karma, which in turn allows their societies to once again thrive and prosper. The life-span of human beings will then begin to increase, lengthening a year per century, until the average person's life-span reaches 84,000 years. At this point, the cycle repeats such that the human life expectancy decreases again. This marks the beginning of the shortening life-span phase of the 10th small kalpa of the Existence Kalpa. At this time, the next Buddha, Maitreya Buddha will come down to be born into this world....
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: diamond girl on June 30, 2012, 09:52:01 AM
Very disturbing video on seeing the nuns destroying the Buddha Dorje Shugden. Do these nuns not take their Bodhisattva vows seriously? And how about Karma? This is very bad and how deluded their minds are.

One of the 18 Root Vows:
Committing the five heinous crimes. ("Kings vow")
The five heinous karmas are killing one's father, killing one's mother, killing a Foe Destroyer (Arhat), wounding a Buddha and creating a schism in the Sangha. Doing any of these very heavy negative actions will break this root vow.

source: http://viewonbuddhism.org/resources/bodhisattva_vows.html (http://viewonbuddhism.org/resources/bodhisattva_vows.html)

What is being done here in this video is all against this root vow. The list of broken vows can go on and on but this one sticks out for me. For someone like me who is still quite new to understanding the depths of Buddhism, it is extremely disturbing to watch such a video. The actions of HHDL has created this and I am very sorry to say...

When HHDL does pass on, will these pains ever be repaired? Will HHDL lift the Ban before he passes? I strongly feel that he must lift the Ban from his own mouth before he passes, this is the only way I see that he can purify his actions... I am not against HHDL but I cannot stop myself to think that despite the argument that the Ban is "good" for promoting DS, it has caused so much suffering. Does the "good" here justify the actual evils which have happened? The "good" is speculative, fact is many are suffering and if nuns who are ordained and taken vows, can do this, how about those not ordained and hold no vows like the CTA? Can they just go destroy freely!
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: samayakeeper on June 30, 2012, 11:04:53 AM
I hope Gary had watched and read the comments in this thread. His claim mentioned here

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2138.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2138.0)

is just mere speculation and a pale comparison to what these nuns would have suffered if Dorje Shugden were a demonic spirit.

This video of witnesses’ accounts of the incidence that happened some time back is shocking and it shows the world especially non Buddhists how those nuns behaved. Buddhism becomes a laughing stock from the violence told and shown in the video when it should be a practice of tolerance, love, compassion, wisdom and all the good qualities it embraces. Shame on those nuns!
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Jessie Fong on July 01, 2012, 12:53:53 AM
I would think that the nuns are deluded to be able to do such a despicable act.  Did they note take a moment to remember how DS had helped them?  It is shocking that members of the Sangha should even lift a finger to desecrate a holy item.  They forgot their vows.  They thought that by destroying statues of DS would mean a step further to enhance the ban.  And to make their guru happy?

What will happen to them when the ban is lifted?  How do they repair? 
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: AnneQ on July 01, 2012, 03:05:01 AM

When HHDL does pass on, will these pains ever be repaired? Will HHDL lift the Ban before he passes? I strongly feel that he must lift the Ban from his own mouth before he passes, this is the only way I see that he can purify his actions... I am not against HHDL but I cannot stop myself to think that despite the argument that the Ban is "good" for promoting DS, it has caused so much suffering. Does the "good" here justify the actual evils which have happened? The "good" is speculative, fact is many are suffering and if nuns who are ordained and taken vows, can do this, how about those not ordained and hold no vows like the CTA? Can they just go destroy freely!

Yes I do sometimes, in fact many times now, question the whole 'bigger picture' theory that has been and still is so fervently promoted in this forum. Like Diamond girl, I do wonder whether the ban does justify all the sufferings and evils that have reared due to following HHDL's "orders"? Yes this particular incident happened over 15 years ago and perhaps things may have improved with HHDL now focusing less on destroying DS and promoting better relations with China and the world over etc etc, one cannot deny the fact that the CTA is still going around discriminating and condemning their own fellow Tibetans who have chosen not to break their vows to their root gurus. As far as I can see from my own personal observations, these 'degenerate times' have been perpetuated by the very act of the Ban itself. So on what level of degree has the 'good' out weighed the 'bad' of the Ban?
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: biggyboy on July 01, 2012, 07:10:32 AM
I would think that the nuns are deluded to be able to do such a despicable act.  Did they note take a moment to remember how DS had helped them?  It is shocking that members of the Sangha should even lift a finger to desecrate a holy item.  They forgot their vows.  They thought that by destroying statues of DS would mean a step further to enhance the ban.  And to make their guru happy?

What will happen to them when the ban is lifted?  How do they repair?
I just cannot imagine how the nuns and many others whom has done the same would face the world when the ban is lifted!  On the contrary, am worry of how they would react and how they are going to repair their samaya.  Hope they would not distance themselves physically and mentally.  If they do, then they will degenerate even further as they would be angry and ashamed to face all DS practitioners.  It is hard to face yet have to face the truth.  Hope, they would not hold on to it as if it is hard and to change. And not  degenerate to the point of not realising all situations are impermanent as it give hope and light....
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: sonamdhargey on July 01, 2012, 07:36:56 AM
I find the some of the sangha in this video shocking. Sangha members destroying, spitting on statues and attacking another Sangha due to indifference in their belief. As a dharma practitioner, we should show compassion, tolerance and respect for each other to create harmony amongst each other. In this degenerate times, even the Sangha acted in violence just to be right or so called up holding and be righteous. I find it really hypocritical about these Sangha preaching Buddhism but their actions contradicts the Buddhist teachings and their own vows.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Benny on July 01, 2012, 09:32:19 AM
I do not find it shocking that these sangha members could carry out such heinous acts, simply because they are Vajrayana buddhist that places utmost importance to guru devotion.

These " shocking " acts are in fact to these nuns an act of guru devotion! To them they are simply making their guru "happy" by expressing their disgust towards what he has labelled as "spirit" or "demonic" practice.  So it is in their believe that they are practicing guru devotion to the letter as taught in the "Fifty Stanzas Of Guru Devotion"; where it is stated that one should even willingly give up ones wife or family. Although this should not be read literally , these nuns seems to have done exactly that.

As in Christianity , the prophet Abraham was also asked to slaughter his son like a sacrificial lamb to prove his devotion to "God". But in the end "God " stopped him. So in this case the "God King' ( as the HHDL is defined by the west ) ) did NOT stopped these " devoted' nuns or sangha from carrying out these unbecoming acts, thus in their minds they are doing what pleases their guru and as such doing meritorious acts !

Such are the risks of misinterpreting the stanzas of guru devotion, it is a real danger as well, when misused by "evil gurus" ( we have to admit in this degenerate age this is highly possible ). Throughout Tibetan history,  countless murderous plots and political asasinations were carried out in the name of Guru devotion. I wonder if this the reason for the lack emphasis on the "guru" in other lineages such as Theravadian and Mahayana , as a truly qualified and good guru is hard to come by in this degenerate times. 


Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Barzin on July 01, 2012, 10:39:43 AM
Sad.  Very sad to see this side of nuns and holy sanghas.  I choose to ignore it but i can't simple there is so much anger and hatred towards a deity that have supported them life after life.  So how much dharma actually gone inside even one has taken vows and put on robes and vow to benefit people?  This is utterly disturbing for people and to not trust the dharma because even nuns have actions of this kind.  So it falls back to the question, do you keep your practice and follow your guru or His Holiness?  This has always been the debate.  Either way, there is no definite solution.  However, seeing nuns to conduct such actions is totally go against both guru and His Holiness...  One might argue that without a guru, what is the purpose of a statue after all?  We all rely on guru devotions in our practice, so do we keep the statue or abandon the guru?  In my opinion, you don't have to go to that extreme to spit on it and destroy it.  Coz it doesn't prove anything except for anger, ignorant and silly...  I wonder what is the karmic repercussion.. sigh.  It is really sad to see this from sanghas...
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: DharmaSpace on July 01, 2012, 10:48:55 AM
See the more extensive post here http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=13688 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=13688)

Isn't part of the refuge commitments to not destroy a buddhist / buddha image and treat all buddhist image as it is the buddha itself. If the refuge is undermined then what is the basis of holding on to higher vows like Bodhisattva and even tantric vows?  Well if Buddhist nuns why can't the Taliban blow up the Bamiyan statues? Aren't we shooting ourselves in the feet?

I wish they had stop to think, who made the nunnery for them it was Trijang DorjeChang who became who he is through the practice of Dorje Shugden and Dorje Sugden cared for Trijang Lama since he was a child? If DS was a demon he would have helped Trijang Rinpoche to gear towards samsara, women, delusions and alcohol more won't he?  And this information is not hidden and obscured cant the nuns tell right from wrong ?   
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: dondrup on July 01, 2012, 11:21:03 AM
In the eyes of the public, it is very unbecoming of the nuns who had gotten rid of the Dorje Shugden statue in the ways as described. It doesn’t make sense at all that all this while the nuns had respectfully worshipped and prayed to Lord Shugden as Buddha.  Then their minds could just make a 180-degree shift and turned around to despise Dorje Shugden just because HH Dalai Lama advised them to abandon Dorje Shugden.  It shows the levels of their practices and attainments. 

How could they lose faith in the founders and lineage masters of their monastery who had been practising Dorje Shugden?

The nuns actions had brought disrepute to the founders of this monastery, their monastery and Buddhism! How could they be wearing the sangha robes and still be the ambassadors of Buddhism when they had been disrespectful to Buddha Dorje Shugden? 
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: kris on July 01, 2012, 02:49:44 PM
In the video (transcript):

They asked the Dalai Lama if they could destroy the Dorje Shugden statue.
Then Dalai Lama replied, "the 150 of your members are following my advice, and showing your support. Thank you very much.. Regarding the statue, to simply destroy it would not be good. First, you must do a ritual ceremony to destroy it, afterwards, you may destroy it".

Actually, HH Dalai Lama didn't really answer the nuns if they CAN destroy it, and Dalai Lama certainly didn't encourage them to destroy the statue. May be they are too eager to get into Dalai Lama's good book?

Also, that leads to my another question: hypothetically, let's say Dalai Lama told the nun to destroy the statue. If the nuns are just following what their Guru said, is it wrong? After all, they are only following the Guru's instruction?

Also, destroying statue will inflict negative Karma, so, who will get the bad karma? The person who gave instruction (Guru) or the person carried it out (nuns)? Or both? But Dalai Lama is enlightened, He will not get bad karma, right?
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: ratanasutra on July 01, 2012, 03:53:39 PM
It so sad to see the nuns destroy statue out of their ignorant, they are so proud to do it and not even realize how negative karma they have created from destroy Dorje Shugden statue. If they know about it, i won't think this will be happen.

I just wondering if they don't want to pray to him anymore, then they can just give to other who is still treasure and worship him that will be the wiser and better way right? What they have done really reflect of  how the narrow mind of this nuns that just want to it to satisfy their ego.

Buddhist is promote wisdom, loving, kindness but i didn't see or feel none of them in this actions so how can we call this actions as Buddhism?   



Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: ratanasutra on July 01, 2012, 04:06:50 PM
If it is the instruction from the HH.Dalai Lama for the nun to destroy the statue, i will say that as the HH.Dalai Lama is an emanation of Avaloskiteshvara who i believe attained the higher practice that he can purify the negative karma for those nun after they destroyed it.

But again, i believe HH.Dalai Lama will only do that if it will bring tremendous benefit to others, if it not and only create more confusion, wrong view or misunderstanding, i won't think he will do it as from his bodhicitta mind are always do things to benefit others only.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: DharmaSpace on July 15, 2012, 11:48:48 AM
Even the Dalai Lama did not order the statue of Dorje Shugden to be destroyed at the old Gaden Lachi so what was the basis that the nuns took to destroy the statue. The statue can be remade back but how will they repair their samayas with Trijang Dorje Chang? The Dalai Lama asked the Dorje Shugden statue to be stored away not destroyed. He asked for the DS statue to be removed from the Lachi.

Read about it here it is in Shar Gaden part of the monastery perhaps waiting for the time to be reinstated once again! 
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=10755 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=10755)

Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: diablo1974 on July 15, 2012, 05:07:31 PM
Doing this to a buddha is utterly unacceptable to me, i do not think there is a need to do this especially from the ordained people. HHDL bans it but did not order them to humiliate and ridicule any form of worship. As in the ordained communities, i can accept peaceful strikes and violentless protests. But not uncompasssionate acts such as this. It pains me when i see DS statue being treated like unwanted trash.

Karma is definitely created when one's destroys any holy objects as these objects has the power to calm one's mind and most importantly to plant the seed of enlightenment... Just imagined if you have destroy an object which is the cause of enlightenment....how heavy would the karma be.

Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Karla on July 15, 2012, 05:29:19 PM
Have any of you even gone to the nunnery and spoken to the nuns there to find out why they are doing this?
I agree, it is not a good thing to destroy any image of worship. It's disrespectful to anyone to do that. Like you said, it's not becoming of any ordained person to act like this, no matter what image it is because it is sacred to someone out there.
But here again, all of you just talking away repeating the same points. YES WE KNOW ALREADY that it's a bad thing, the nuns did not act in accordance with their vows, it's distasteful blah blah blah but have any of you even gone to enquire and find out what really happened and what motivated them to do this? Maybe they feel regret now and have repented. Maybe they have already done something positive and good to redeem this action. Maybe it was some kind of instruction they had to follow. I mean there are many pressures within the monastic community that people don't know about. I could just as easily turn around and say, "look at all those disloyal monks who are swearing against the practice of dorje shugden. What traitors they are breaking samaya with their gurus and practice like that." I mean they are being forced to do this right? Or so you say? So how do you know maybe these nuns are also pressured into it also somehow?
You don't appreciate people criticising shugdenpas. but then you shouldn't criticise either.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: fruven on December 31, 2012, 04:04:05 AM
The incident of the nuns dragging the Dorje Shugden statue by a string tied to the neck happened in Dhramsala on a public place. Those who done the same actions to a stray animal would be scorn, what more a holy statue of a Buddha consecrated by the tutor of the Dalai Lama, who is also a high lama. Dhramsala is such a holy place, hosting HHDL official residence and offices, and so many other monasteries and temples in exile from Tibet. One can only imagine what kind of image those nuns were potraying to the laymen on the streets, witnessing such acts by the holy sangha members. Are we not taught to regard any image of a Buddha as an actual Buddha? It is also very disturbing to watch monks in the video stoning another monastery. All this is done in the name of wanting to get in the good books of HHDL?

I for one would not touch or throw away objects of worships whether it is divine, or spirit. It is even scarier to throw or destroy an object linked with a spirit because you would have disturbed it and it can harm you back. In actual fact thinking that it is a enlightened being and it cannot harm us, we disrespect towards it, we are admitting Dorje Shugden to be a Buddha. Since he cannot harm we conclude wrongly we can do as we please. Such acts will give wrong impression to common lay people of how to respect a Buddha image or others' faith object or image of worship. It point towards not respecting your guru, seniority and someone who is more knowledgeable but without any fame or power.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Ensapa on December 31, 2012, 04:55:34 AM
Sometimes it is a very sad sight to see Tibetans and even monastics who are tempted by the promise of the Dalai Lama's blessing or that they will be praised by the Dalai Lama or that they will be included into his circle or even worse, for worldly fame because none of those would aid in their Dharma practice at all. What's more is that the statue was consecrated by Trijang Rinpoche who also founded the monastery. Does it even make sense at all to go against the nunnery's founder just to be in the Dalai Lama's group?! Should the nuns be expelled for going against the founder of the monastery? If Dharma practice is aligning yourself to the Dalai Lama, shouldnt the millions of people around the globe who view the Dalai Lama as their spiritual guide be enlightened already? Sigh, the lack of logic in people astounds me sometimes.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: diamond girl on January 01, 2013, 07:02:39 PM
The sight of nuns behaving in such a manner still shocks me despite reading this thread for the second time. The Sangha is one of the 3 jewels in which we can safely take refuge in because they dedicate their lives to learn and practice pure Dharma. How is it possible for us to:

1) take refuge in the Sangha when their action does not reflect the practice of Dharma? is this not destructive to our minds?

2) Have solid faith in the 3 jewels that are inter-related especially in this case when the act of destroying holy images is endorsed by the ultimate authority - H.H the 14th Dalai Lama!? In other words, the actions of the nuns in the video will sway the respect and faith people have towards Buddhadharma. Impossible.   

One may say that Dorje Shugden is not a holy image and that is why the nuns and H.H had it destroyed. However, contemplating over this situation on a basic human level: Is it acceptable to destroy property that does not belong to you simply because you do not condone to it? Even a child will respond "no".

If it is felt that one has the responsibility to protect society as a whole against Dorje Shugden, it should not be executed in this manner. Open communication and debate would certainly be a better representation of a Dharma practitioner.

Again, from both a secular and spiritual level, what the nuns did was inappropriate and resulted in great pain and suffering by others. Where is the compassion may I ask?
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Ensapa on January 03, 2013, 06:27:51 AM
The sight of nuns behaving in such a manner still shocks me despite reading this thread for the second time. The Sangha is one of the 3 jewels in which we can safely take refuge in because they dedicate their lives to learn and practice pure Dharma. How is it possible for us to:

1) take refuge in the Sangha when their action does not reflect the practice of Dharma? is this not destructive to our minds?

2) Have solid faith in the 3 jewels that are inter-related especially in this case when the act of destroying holy images is endorsed by the ultimate authority - H.H the 14th Dalai Lama!? In other words, the actions of the nuns in the video will sway the respect and faith people have towards Buddhadharma. Impossible.   

One may say that Dorje Shugden is not a holy image and that is why the nuns and H.H had it destroyed. However, contemplating over this situation on a basic human level: Is it acceptable to destroy property that does not belong to you simply because you do not condone to it? Even a child will respond "no".

If it is felt that one has the responsibility to protect society as a whole against Dorje Shugden, it should not be executed in this manner. Open communication and debate would certainly be a better representation of a Dharma practitioner.

Again, from both a secular and spiritual level, what the nuns did was inappropriate and resulted in great pain and suffering by others. Where is the compassion may I ask?

In any case, the nuns have chosen the easy way out in Dharma practice: they think that by making the Dalai Lama happy, it equates to spiritual growth. But the truth is that nothing but hard work and putting the already taught Dharma into practice can bring us to spiritual progress. In fact, many people seem to have a misconception that by making the Dalai Lama happy or by going to his side, they can ignore their vows and they can act in whatever way that they think is aligned with the Dalai Lama, even if it means going against the founder of their own temple or their own guru. this incident is a glaring example of how such attitudes are harmful.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: beggar on January 03, 2013, 03:59:30 PM
The hard truth of the matter is that no matter what these nuns' intentions were for destroying the statue (and I'm sure a part of them feel they are being sincere in their upholding of the Dalai Lama's instructions etc), what the world sees is only this: Nuns behaving badly. Nuns destroying a buddha statue. Nuns stepping on what is clearly an object of faith for other people.

Not everyone understands the many complexities of the ban on Dorje Shugden. In this instance however, it's not necessary to understand the ban to recognize that reactions and actions like this of any spiritual practitioner - least of all a nun - is not acceptable. Anyone will look upon these nuns and wonder what it is about their religion, teachings and practices that condones destroying objects of worship, whether they believe in that object or not. You would never expect to see any Buddhist defacing a church or dragging out items form a synagogue and destroying it publicly. So what more that they are destroying a deity from within their own religion? Sure, they may not wish to worship this deity but any logical thinking person will ask why they need to resort to such aggressive, destructive actions against any practice within their own religion?

And this is where it's most important to realise that while we may think we're acting in accordance with the Dalai Lama's ban, we need to also consider how we are reflecting our teachers, lineage and religion in our actions. The Dalai Lama has also preached kindness, not harming anyone, tolerance and patience. There is none of this in the action of destroying this statue. It is all the worse that they are doing this in the name of supporting the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden, for the rest of the world will look upon them and wonder if this is the kind of behaviour that the Dalai Lama - nobel peace laureate - encourages among his followers: to destroy another's religion in this way? To act in such vulgar, aggressively, offensive ways? The world will look upon them and think, "If this is what Buddhism encourages and what the Dalai Lama stands for, then I will have none of it."

So for all they are trying to do to uphold their religion, preserve religious purity and all that, they're doing a good job at destroying the very thing they are trying to protect.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Ensapa on January 04, 2013, 05:48:12 AM
The hard truth of the matter is that no matter what these nuns' intentions were for destroying the statue (and I'm sure a part of them feel they are being sincere in their upholding of the Dalai Lama's instructions etc), what the world sees is only this: Nuns behaving badly. Nuns destroying a buddha statue. Nuns stepping on what is clearly an object of faith for other people.

Not everyone understands the many complexities of the ban on Dorje Shugden. In this instance however, it's not necessary to understand the ban to recognize that reactions and actions like this of any spiritual practitioner - least of all a nun - is not acceptable. Anyone will look upon these nuns and wonder what it is about their religion, teachings and practices that condones destroying objects of worship, whether they believe in that object or not. You would never expect to see any Buddhist defacing a church or dragging out items form a synagogue and destroying it publicly. So what more that they are destroying a deity from within their own religion? Sure, they may not wish to worship this deity but any logical thinking person will ask why they need to resort to such aggressive, destructive actions against any practice within their own religion?

And this is where it's most important to realise that while we may think we're acting in accordance with the Dalai Lama's ban, we need to also consider how we are reflecting our teachers, lineage and religion in our actions. The Dalai Lama has also preached kindness, not harming anyone, tolerance and patience. There is none of this in the action of destroying this statue. It is all the worse that they are doing this in the name of supporting the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden, for the rest of the world will look upon them and wonder if this is the kind of behaviour that the Dalai Lama - nobel peace laureate - encourages among his followers: to destroy another's religion in this way? To act in such vulgar, aggressively, offensive ways? The world will look upon them and think, "If this is what Buddhism encourages and what the Dalai Lama stands for, then I will have none of it."

So for all they are trying to do to uphold their religion, preserve religious purity and all that, they're doing a good job at destroying the very thing they are trying to protect.

I doubt that they were spiritually motivated anyway because the only reason why they destroyed the statue was to please the Dalai Lama and gain favor points with the Dalai Lama. It was entirely for selfish reasons and they are not really nuns on that aspect because they dont represent Buddhism at all. You're right in that sense that these nuns' wanton destruction of a Buddha image and showing disrespect and violence to a Buddhist image will certainly plant a lot of misunderstandings and negative imprints to people who see them. It is a very sad day that these nuns are still considered to be Buddhist nuns and are still allowed to remain in the monastery as it is a sign of degenerate times.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: brian on January 06, 2013, 10:19:02 AM
They are supposed to be representing Buddha in all kind but their actions over this matter makes me wonder whether they are really that holy and wise. Why would you cause damage onto another holy image. I don't think it is appropriate even if the statue is of a god or something. And amid all solid proof that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit, the nuns should be well aware of the potential of incurring bad karma for destroying a holy image.

By doing this blindly because of ignorance, i feel they are creating themselves a heavy karma for destroying holy images and especially when you are talking about Dorje Shugden's holy image. Its a big NO NO! You could be giving public a poor reflection on Buddhism as a whole. Especially with the current controversy running about doing this is not good at all!
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Ensapa on January 07, 2013, 04:11:01 AM
They are supposed to be representing Buddha in all kind but their actions over this matter makes me wonder whether they are really that holy and wise. Why would you cause damage onto another holy image. I don't think it is appropriate even if the statue is of a god or something. And amid all solid proof that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit, the nuns should be well aware of the potential of incurring bad karma for destroying a holy image.

By doing this blindly because of ignorance, i feel they are creating themselves a heavy karma for destroying holy images and especially when you are talking about Dorje Shugden's holy image. Its a big NO NO! You could be giving public a poor reflection on Buddhism as a whole. Especially with the current controversy running about doing this is not good at all!

The motivation, action and result of what the nuns did does not match their role at all. Nuns represent people who have given up their material trappings for spiritual endeavor and serve as an example for laypeople. What they did was the complete opposite of what being a nun represents, from all aspects. Like I have mentioned in an earlier post, it is very sad that these nuns are allowed to remain as nuns even after they have done so much damage to the sangha and to the people around them. I wouldnt consider these nuns as nuns at all even if i am not a Dorje Shugden practitioner because what they did and their motivations were only for self gain.
Title: Re: Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful
Post by: Gabby Potter on March 02, 2015, 08:03:28 PM
Wow, I'm stunned! Seriously. They are setting up such a bad example to the people, they are reflecting themselves as nuns like that? I'm sorry to say this but they are degrading the Sanghas, nuns and monks are not supposed to act like that, then what is the difference between taking up a nunhood/ monkhood and staying as an ordinary person? The attitude and transformation are all that matters.