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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: hope rainbow on June 20, 2012, 04:19:37 AM
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What scope do you think your practice is geared at?
What result do you seek from your practice, even if it is an aspiring practice?
in a nut-shell:
ENTRY SCOPE:
practitioners that aim at a rebirth in the uppper realms, human, deva or asura.
Thus free from rebirth in the lower realms, animal, spirit or hell being.
MEDIUM SCOPE:
practitioners that have come to realize that the upper realms do not offer a type of existence free from sufferings and therefore aim at the cessation of samsara overall, a cessation of the cycle of rebirth all together, and thus no more rebirth in any of the realms, lower or higher realms.
This achievement is named arhathood.
GREAT SCOPE:
practioners that have come to the same conclusion as the practitioners of the medium scope but that are motivated to achieve liberation so as to be skilled to help all other beings still trapped in the cycle of rebirth, trapped in a cycle of sufferings, and out of great compassion are driven to achieve liberation so that they can be skilled at helping others.
This supreme achievement is named buddhahood.
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What scope do you think your practice is geared at?
I believe we all want to achieve enlightenment or we would not be on the Buddhist path. But perhaps it is a naive view or a warped sense of perception to think everyone believes in that. So I shall, as your question asks, speak for myself. Yes I do believe my eventual scope is that of the Great Scope for I believe in going all the way and not half heartedly. However, I will be first to point out to myself that I may not always walk the talk. I am still am caught up with my attachments but at least I realize that and that is a good place to start.
What result do you seek from your practice, even if it is an aspiring practice?
I think the key word here is transformation. Mind transformation to be exact be cause with that everything else just falls into place I believe. My gauge for that is that I am improving as time goes by and that is the whole point of my practice... is to move forward. If I can inch my way towards enlightenment, I will... if i can reach a point in my life where I can leap forward towards enlightenment even better!
And the "by product" of my practice I have come to also realize is that I am less angersome, more tolerant, more giving, more compassionate (if I may humbly suggest) towards others and I find myself focusing outwards more and less towards myself. If for some reason, this is the wrong "path", at least I know I will cause less suffering for others and that in itself is somewhat liberating!
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Ideally, I would like to be the practitioner of the highest scope but realistically I am not. I am actually the practitioner of the lowest scope or perhaps even lower. Most people have misconceptions of aspirations and reality. We are nowhere near the practice level that will assure us a good future rebirth. Most of us are superficial Lamrim bearing practitioners. If Geshes can go to hell, why can't we?
The best is to internalize whatever we have learned through the accumulation of merits and purification. This could be done with lengthy retreats or could be done by serving our Lama through our sincere Dharma work. If you ask any Lama, he would honestly tell you that a vast majority of their students would be going to the 3 lower realms. His work is to accumulate the merit that they don't go there or the duration they stay in lower realms is shortened through the little merits they have accumulated through practice. That's the real truth of the matter.
It sounds gloomy but that's how things is going to be for many of us. It would be better that we are hit by the truth and so we can do something about it right now instead of fooling ourselves that everything is alright and we end up in the lower realms later when its already too late.
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Dear HR, there is a lower scope which forms the majority of people's motivation - to wish for temporary happiness of this life.
People at this level are considered worldly as their aspirations and knowledge do not go beyond life after death seeing death as the end all and totally helpless when death comes. Their life is characterised by attachment to sense pleasures which is why most of us are living in this desire realm.
I think these 3 scopes are within us as practitioners although one aspiration may be predominant. We should aim for the highest scope. While practicing at this level we still get all the benefits of the lower scope . I would say I am roughly at 20 % entry scope, 20 % medium scope and 60 % great scope. So there is still a lot to work towards.
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My aspiration is to be a practitioner of the highest scope. But in order to reach that highest scope I have to enter from the lower/entry scope and work my work up eventually. Personally, I think we should put into practice what we learn and understand, purify our negative karma and collect merits to reach a higher goal. I am nowhere there yet and there are still a lot of work to do to improve myself to achieve that goal.
From my practice, I realized that mind transformation is very important. I have learned to let go of many of my attachments, I am more patient and tolerant and less anger-some.
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Ideally, I would like to be the practitioner of the highest scope but realistically I am not. I am actually the practitioner of the lowest scope or perhaps even lower. Most people have misconceptions of aspirations and reality. We are nowhere near the practice level that will assure us a good future rebirth. Most of us are superficial Lamrim bearing practitioners. If Geshes can go to hell, why can't we?
The best is to internalize whatever we have learned through the accumulation of merits and purification. This could be done with lengthy retreats or could be done by serving our Lama through our sincere Dharma work. If you ask any Lama, he would honestly tell you that a vast majority of their students would be going to the 3 lower realms. His work is to accumulate the merit that they don't go there or the duration they stay in lower realms is shortened through the little merits they have accumulated through practice. That's the real truth of the matter.
It sounds gloomy but that's how things is going to be for many of us. It would be better that we are hit by the truth and so we can do something about it right now instead of fooling ourselves that everything is alright and we end up in the lower realms later when its already too late.
Oh my, Big Uncle you certainly sound like the harbinger of doom alright! But what you have said is not without logic and common sense. Yes it sounds bleak and defeatist but it is THE truth we need to contemplate on and not give ourselves a false sense of "salvation" and that everything will be ok if we just chant our mantras and be on our merry way!
How we then react or act rather, after realizing this truth will then be the benchmark of when and how far we go in our practice. And hopefully we would have accumulated some merits along the way to lessen what is to come. I liken this to, it would still be like being hit by a bus, but at least we have paramedics around!
Contemplating more on this, it is even clearer now for me, how most Lamas do precisely as you have said Big Uncle, in that they do find different skillful methods to benefit us through the accumulation of merits. Even HHDL giving mass initiations to the public is merely designed to plant seeds and give blessings... only a very few handful actually take these initiations as a practice and gain attainments from it.
Hence, should we have a teacher who we deem represents the 3 jewels, we should trust and follow every instruction to a tee as it is done so to ensure we gain or accumulate as much merits as we can in this opportune life to benefit us in our future lives. And it also creates the causes for us to meet our teacher again in our future lives!
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Dear HR, there is a lower scope which forms the majority of people's motivation - to wish for temporary happiness of this life.
People at this level are considered worldly as their aspirations and knowledge do not go beyond life after death seeing death as the end all and totally helpless when death comes. Their life is characterised by attachment to sense pleasures which is why most of us are living in this desire realm.
I think these 3 scopes are within us as practitioners although one aspiration may be predominant. We should aim for the highest scope. While practicing at this level we still get all the benefits of the lower scope . I would say I am roughly at 20 % entry scope, 20 % medium scope and 60 % great scope. So there is still a lot to work towards.
You mean you are a great scope practitioner? You can't possibly have 2 lesser motivations because that would imply that you have 3 minds in this case. Logically speaking, there can not be lesser motivations if you have the highest motivation. You could be talking about the motivation of your individual actions and to determine that, a majority of your actions would form the basis of your motivation, wouldn't it?
What you said is true though. Most people are concerned with the pleasures and concerns of this life alone and everything, from pop culture to family perpetuate this. Therefore, to practice real Dharma, one have to be like a white crow and basically go against the stream, so to speak. Even to practice an authentic and powerful Protector like Dorje Shugden, one have to overcome so much in order to gain access to the practice. This illustrates, how real practice is when we do what is right and necessary and against all odds. The more obstacles we encounter, that is where our spirituality would lie or where it would be tested.
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Well, my ultimate wish is that I aspire to be a practitioner of the highest scope. While I move myself to this higher scope I would have to go through the two, lower and medium scope for the experiential, understanding and realisation. Without these and if we were to jump straight and said that we are in the highest scope of training, do check ourselves and ask are we truthful enough? In fact, it is superficial or it may not even have that thought at all in the first place. Hence, it is important that one should continue to walk the path by continuous learning, practising, internalize them along with mind transformation and sincere motivation of wanting to improve and benefiting others.
For ease of reading and understanding, here are the 3 different scopes of motivation (extracted from http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/lam-rim.html (http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/lam-rim.html))
(1) The lowest scope motivation (striving for a rebirth in the upper realms)
- The reality that this life will end and that we will die
- The suffering in a rebirth in the lower realms (a rebirth as hell being, hungry ghost or animal)
- Take refuge in the three Jewels: Buddha, Dharma and Sangha (by adjusting our behaviour of body, speech and mind according to the law of cause and effect/karma).
(2) The medium scope motivation (striving for liberation of cyclic existence - The path of four noble truths)
- The truth of suffering (the cyclic existence in general, including the favourable rebirths)
- The truth of the causes of suffering (the afflictive emotions, especially ignorance)
- The truth of cessation (a state that is free of suffering and its origins)
- The truth of paths (the way to attain this state free of suffering and its causes by practising ethics, concentration and wisdom)
(3) The highest scope motivation (striving for complete buddhahood)
- The advantages for the wish to achieve enlighten mind for the welfare of all sentient beings
- The way to develop the mind of enlightenment
- The 7-point instruction in seeing all sentient beings as our mothers
- The instruction on how to exchange one self-interest for others (by looking at the drawbacks of self-cherishing and the advantages of cherishing others)
- The way to train our mind in developing the mind of enlightenment with the 6 perfections of training viz generosity, ethics, patience, joyful effort, concentration and wisdom.
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Of course the aspiration is definitely the to have The highest scope motivation. But I echo what BIg Uncle said and face reality for now I am at the lowest scope. Thanks biggyboy for enhanced definition of the 3 different scopes.
Yes I agree that most of us will probably start with the lowest scope and as we purify and collect some merits, our motivation will slowly transform. If it does not then we will need to check in and figure out what is it that we are still not doing right or not letting go or not surrendering. In Vajrayana Buddhism that we're in, we should be at the highest scope but alas before that happens, we still need to go through the lowest on and make our way up. At least this is for me.
Buddhism has been such a popular religion today simply because the answers to achieving liberation for one's own suffering has been the main aim for most of us. And this is excellent because at least in Buddhism you can still find the answers that is logical to one's own suffering and there are methods for you to use and apply as long as you acknowledge and instead of putting the responsibility on to an outside source.
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I tend to agree with KhedrubGyatso that the three levels are in us and if we practice at the highest level, we still achieve the benefits of the lower scopes. If the tradition you have chosen to practice is Mahayana-Vajrayana, then you are at the level of the great scope. The motivation is a Mahayana motivation which is to realise Buddhahood in order to bring others to the same state out of compassion. I guess I'm practising with this motivation in mind but unless the foundation is very strong, we will encounter a lot of problems. We need to be solidly grounded in the initial and medium scopes so that the path of the great scope will be stable.
People generally think they are at the lower scope. Even if they are, they can gradually progress from this scope to the medium scope and eventually the great scope. I think this is quite natural. The important thing is not to stop at the medium scope which is to achieve arhatship. One is tempted to just get out of samsara and achieve salvation just for oneself alone. For this one has just to realise emptiness which is relatively easier and faster than going for Buddhahood. But the wiser choice is to aim for full enlightenment so we don't have to cross the stream twice.
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Well.. i think most of vajrayana practitioners are aim to achieve the highest scope. In some of the practice are aim to be liberate themselves from the cycle of rebirth which is arhatship.
The pure motivation is to have bodhicitta mind to gain highest scope in order to be able to help other beings then it will be the real highest scope.
And of course obviously to be able to achieve the highest scope we must pass through the lower 2 scopes first. And what we are aiming and where we are now is can be different, ie i aim for the highest scope but the way that i practice still very little now, but it does not stop the future to achieve it.
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I think most of the practitioners would want to achieve enlightenment even if possible in this very life time. The way I see the different level of scope representing the level of our mind that serve as a motivation in our practice.
Personally if we as practitioners have set our self that enlightenment is the ultimate goals of our spiritual journey why not just set ourself to the Great scope? All the Buddhist teaching encompasses in all 3 scopes and actually is just us that differentiate the level of our mind. It could sound extreme but I see it more like a fast track of mind transformation.
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intellectually i would say that yes i am aiming for the highest scope, but my actions do not reflect this aspiration... it does not even really reflect the lowest scope... so am i actually even in the lowest scope at least? do i really believe that i might go to hell if i died tomorrow? do i even believe that i could die tomorrow? i don't even meditate on death daily (which most Buddhist masters advise us to do), i won't profess that i REALLY believe that my life is so fragile (intellectually i understand it). so if i don't believe i am dying, how can i believe that i will go to the lower realms for sure? and if i don't believe in that it means that i don't really believe in karma!
if i really did truly believe in the above, i would probably request to be ordained into the sangha by now. So i think i only just got my pinkie toe in the entrance of the lowest scope.
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Most practitioners, I included, would be in the lower scope – the entry level. This is a good start because we recognize :
1) there are future lives,
2) we are in real danger to go to the three lower realms
3) we can do something about it.
As we practice and have deeper understanding of the hopelessness in the unending cyclic rebirths. We develop the wish to break loose from this circle. This is the minimum motivation for the start of true spiritual training. The external sign of this would be taking the ordination vow.
Recognizing that all others have one time or other been our mothers and we cannot help them until we gain full enlightenment, bodhichitta is born. This is the great scope, the altruistic wish. Only very few people are in this scope but we should all aim for this. When we set a high goal, we create the cause to attain it sooner than later.
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Which scope I'm practising in? Well... I'd like to say the great scope. lol! But in actual practice, i'm barely a small scope practitioner.
I think what's important is to aspire to practice the great scope... That our motivation should always be generated from the great scope, even if our practice have not reached that level. Creating the causes to reach that level is equally important to improving out practice.
As for the result of which I wish to achieve... well... I dont want to be in samsara, I wish to get out of samsara for good.
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I must be honest, my acts and thoughts are 95% "this life" scope.
Only sometimes, do I get thoughts aligned with a clumsy entry scope practitioner.
And the other two scopes only glimpse sometimes in my mind as a beautiful aspiration only.
If I'd say otherwise I would lie to myself.
Then of course I can speak nicely about the 3 scopes, I can speak in length about the lamrim, and I hope that this inspires other people to do better than me, and I also have hope that merit is then created so that I can clear the murky water of the slump in which I drawn until I see the light on the surface and may blossom as a lotus.
A honest reply.
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For me, it makes no sense for me for suffering to end for me alone and when i no longer suffer, what do I do about people who are suffering? I do not wish to sit back and relax while i watch others suffer, while i know that other people are suffering helplessly and are lost in confusion. I still abhor suffering now, but the amount of suffering that I can take is definitely a lot more than what I could take before. Things i use to suffer incredibly i now can bear it with little or no issue as I realize that this is not much suffering compared to what others are suffering from. I do not want cessation of my own suffering as the only reason for me to practice Dharma but i do need relief from time to time so that I dont get too distracted by my own suffering until i lose my own goals.
I definitely need relief from my own suffering from time to time, but that will never be my main goal. At most, it will be temporal and I will keep reminding myself of that every time i am in suffering.