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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: Manjushri on May 26, 2012, 05:05:18 PM
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Recently someone told me that HH Dalai Lama is not an enlightened being.
I get so irritated when people come to me and tell me what an enlightened master should/shouldn't be, and from their own view judge whether great teachers and lamas are enlightened or not. Come on, it's like who are we to judge when we ourselves are not enlightened? As if we know what it is like to be enlightened.
Usually I don't reply to their remarks, but what would be an appropriate reply? How would you reply? My reply is usually who are we to judge, but then, they just drift on and on about their judgements on a lama/teacher.
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The more you try to respond to these remarks that HH Dalai Lama is not an enlightened being, the more irritated you would become! There are so many people in the current World who don’t even bother or care who HH Dalai Lama is or whether he is enlightened or otherwise!
We should have compassion for these people who have negative thoughts and remarks on HH Dalai Lama due to their ignorance. We can’t forcefully challenge them to change their fixed views. Only through skillful means like feeding them with correct information about who HH Dalai Lama is can they turn around! Eventually, when the obscurations in their mind are cleared, they will realize the truth of who HH Dalai Lama is.
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For me it is virtually impossible for ordinary people to recognize an enlightened being.
After all what do we look for? We may follow Maitreya's "Filigree Of Realizations" which speaks of the 10 Forces of a Buddha's mind (such as omniscient knowledge of what is right and wrong and also knowledge of the karmic causes of everyone); the 4 Guarantees about which a Buddha is without fear (which includes the fearlessness of guaranteeing what we must do to remove all our mental obscurations); the 4 perfect Awareness which includes awareness of all dharma and all knowledge; and the 18 Unshared Features such as the Buddha's absorption on voidness never drops.
Or do we look for the 32 marks of a Buddhas body such as fingers and toes that are connected by a web of light? Setting aside the impossibility of examining the Dalai Lama's body closely, we don't even know the Buddha's mind.
Trijang Rinpoche in his Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors, clearly warned us not to judge the actions of enlightened minds from the common view that is stained with our own perceptions. Making reference to the Nirvana Sutra, Trijang wrote that if need be a Buddha may even emanate as an evil being if it serves the further the dharma.
When we look at the Dalai Lama's actions in relation to the Dorje Shugden matter, we instantly think that it is not an action of an enlightened being. How can a Buddha teach people to go against their Guru and to break vows and cause harm to people? And yet, doesn't the Dalai Lama's actions make us go and investigate the matter further, only to discover the true greatness of the great Protector, Dorje Shugden and the list of luminaries that this Buddha comes from?
When I think of what the Dalai Lama has done (ban the practice of the very Dharmapala that helped him escape the Chinese) and not done (subdue the demon if indeed Dorje Shugden is one) and what he has said (essentially that a worldly spirit that cause a Buddha to lose his life)...it all does not make sense.
But when I see the net result of the Dalai Lama's actions, which was to propel this Protector practice all around the world, then I am inclined to view his actions as that of a very skillful and enlightened mind.
I would still be very interested to know how manjushri's friend can be so certain that HHDL is not an enlightened being.
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The more people tell you that Dalai Lama is unenlightened then the more you get irritated. Learn to let go from that feeling. They can say whatever they want and you can believe what you believe. If you want to educate him or her, approach in a nice way and not a very forward way. But in this case, you can say, "His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is Enlightened, why would you think not?" Then, try to have a healthy conversation.
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I would also point out to the person that we ourselves are not on the level to judge who is enlightened and who isn't. Really it is pointless getting annoyed with someone who is trying to make a judging remark and not want to accept some true facts even after we have pointed out to them. I agree with vajratruth that it is not possible for us ordinary beings to recognize an enlightened being, so we should have full trust in our very own Guru to guide us on our practice.
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ok, i think instead of arguing whether Dalai Lama is enlightened or not, we should look at what Dalai Lama taught, isn't this has more impact to us as compare to whether is he enlightened?
first of all, why are we here? are we here to find out whether this Lama or that lama is enlightened or not? or we are here to learn Dharma? if we are here to learn Dharma, even an ordinary person who are not enlightened, as long as his knowledge is better than us, he can already be our teacher. Unless our motive of coming here is different, we come to create politics in Dharma centres, in Buddhism, then i will understand why you wanted to know whether the lama is enlightened or not.
Vice Versa, if someone come and challenge you, try to pick up your fault, wanted to put you down, how would you feel? if you don't like it, why wanted to do it to other people? Please think what really matters to you, enlightened Lama? or learning Dharma?
And my bottom line is, whether the Lama is enlightened or not, in short sentence:
...IT IS NON OF YOUR BUSINESS...
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Well, how do we defined enlightened? Does he or she knows what enlightenment meant? Assuming we know what enlightenment meant, is it very important that HHDL or any Lamas must be enlightened? I believe what is most Important are their actions and conducts. We are in no capacity to say who is enlightened or not as we don't even know what enlightenment meant.
Everyone have the right of their opinion and it is no point being upset or irritated with what others have said. But if their opinions are valid and can help you with another perspective and you understand better then good if not, you don't have to take it too personally.
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To me, this subject is liken whether there is god or no god. Is Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism and Muslim the correct religion? Does aliens exist? Does spirits exist???
Yes, it can be frustrating when you have seen a spirit and someone else does not believe in it. Everyone has their own opinions, faith and believes. We will just need to learn to accept that. Just because we experienced something and believe in something OR know that something is the truth, doesn't mean everyone will have the same opinions.
How I would answer is ... "This is my beliefs and it's up to you whether you believe it or not. So respect my beliefs as I respect that you do not believe that HHDL is an Enlightened Being."
That way, everyone remains harmonious regardless their backgrounds, belief system or views. Just my 2 cents.
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It is very irritating when someone mentioned that HHDL is not enlightened and frustrating when their stubborn and fixed mind refused to except any explanations. For this type of people, I would not bother to justify to them.
Who are we and on what level are we to judge HHDL?. What proof do they have that make them say HHDL is unenlightened? If they refused to accept HHDL as enlightened let them be. They have a right to their own opinion. I will stay by my opinion and trust that HHDL is enlightened and continue with my spiritual path and they can pursue whatever they wish for.
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I am sure there are many who would regards Buddha Shakyamuni as evil too :) I am also quite sure there are some other religions who said since He didn't believe in some higher being, He is now in hell...
Jokes aside, I would reply that:
1. Look at the results He created, in terms if Dharma is spread in His presence. What I see is that, because of Him, Dharma has been spread wide and far in the western countries, and with this Dorje Shugden twist, directly or indirectly, Buddhism has risen again in China.
2. He ask people to be kind to each other.
3. He encourage world peace.
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Our minds have fallen so far under the influence of self destructive emotions that these attitudes are welcomed and promoted.We practice Dharma with the motivation of benefitting others and to tame our ego.If someone talk bad about Dalai Lama and we argue,they create bad karma for themselves and we shouldn't let them.Interesting how we are being tested again and again how to discern the truth.We have to align ourselves with a choice that we have to make individually.
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I’m definitely not qualified to tell who’s enlightened but will only assume based on my own perception. Each individual has their way and perception.
For me what important is their teaching and what they have done in benefiting others.
For Dalai Lama he frequently states that his life is guided by 3 major commitments
1. Promotion of basic human value or secular ethic in the interest of human happiness
2. The fostering of inter-religious harmony& the welfare of the Tibetan people
3. Focusing on the survival of their identity, culture & religious.
HH Dalai Lama has been receiving so many awards & honors from so many country and education institution. This is definitely a recognition of HH teaching and contribution towards the spirituality.
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There is no point in arguing with people about whether the Dalai Lama is enlightened or not. We are not enlightened ourselves, how are we going to convince them. Just ask them to look at what the Dalai Lama does and his results in the world. Are those the results of an enlightened being? Are their actions towards all sentient beings are based on values of compassion, love and kindness? Are the qualities inherent with the Dalai Lama qualities of a Buddha, or someone who you think has gained Buddhahood? Ask them to judge for themselves.
If your friend's views of an enlightened being is someone who can float and meditate on clouds, then you can't win. Maybe you can doctor a picture and show it to him. Hehe.
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It is indeed frightening that a person could even begin to doubt HHDL. What I would like to know if this person is indeed Buddhist and I certainly would love to hear his argument as to why he/she thinks HHDL is not enlightened.
Surely if one were that convinced, one would have arguments or facts to support such accusation! Truly absurd rubbish coming from a person who has not absorbed or incorporated the Dharma into their lives.
Hope such absurdity will cease and we all embraced our differences.
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Recently someone told me that HH Dalai Lama is not an enlightened being.
I get so irritated when people come to me and tell me what an enlightened master should/shouldn't be, and from their own view judge whether great teachers and lamas are enlightened or not. Come on, it's like who are we to judge when we ourselves are not enlightened? As if we know what it is like to be enlightened.
Usually I don't reply to their remarks, but what would be an appropriate reply? How would you reply? My reply is usually who are we to judge, but then, they just drift on and on about their judgements on a lama/teacher.
The moment we have benefitted from a teaching given by any monk/nun, from that point onwards we should have reverence for him/her... whether or not we take them as our spiritual teacher is not the point, but respect should be there. This is the same for any lay person that offers us spiritual advice. Enlightened or not, he/she is still wiser.
We cannot avoid people that have a strong tendancy to put down the Dharma, or High Lamas. I would say it is very sad whenever someone does that, because we know, somewhere in his/her past they have done something to make them feel very distant from Dharma.... which is why even when they see High Lamas, or listen to Dharma, they get wrong view from it... or see too much faults in it... So unfortunate. We should feel sorry for them... help them if can, but if we can't then just put a stop to it so they don't create anymore harm to themselves.
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Frankly speaking, if a friend makes a sweeping statement like that, knowing full well of my religious beliefs, I would smile, keep quiet, leave the table for a while and then come back to change the topic. Fortunately I haven't met any friends like that yet (so i'm not speaking from personal experience)... om ah hum!
To me, the point here is not really about "proving" or "justifying" the "englightened-ness" of HHDL. If someone makes a remark like that, they usually just want to start a "fight" and see how we react negatively (then they turn around to say.. hey isn't Buddhism about love and compassion and not getting angry??).
So (assuming we don't have the skilful means and enough solid knowledge on the topic) the more we try to explain to such people, the more we will encourage them to say disparaging things about HHDL / Buddha etc. So if it was me i'd try my best to change the topic or kill the conversation, even if it would make me look like i'm intolerant or over-sensitive. I think it would be worth it if it makes the friend become more cautious of what they say with regards to Buddhism, if they cherished your friendship enough to change their attitude.
A friend who genuinely wants to know more about HHDL or what enlightened qualities are would ask in a much different way.
BUT i guess if you REALLY need/want to say something/prove a point... try asking your friend (though i wouldn't try this myself for the above reasons... but let me know if you do!):
- are you a boy/girl/in between?
- do you know what being a boy/girl/in between is like?
- do you know how a boy/girl/in between would generally behave?
- are you enlightened/ a lama?
-- No -> then how would you know how enlightened people/lamas should behave?
-- Yes -> why do you say so?
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Well.. if we are not the lawyer how should we know which lawyer is good or bad?? Same things go to this if we not fully enlightenment how could we know which lama/guru enlighten? We are just a normal layman people who not even hold any vows or may be refuge vows for people who has taken refuge. How many vows that the lama/monk have to hold, we not even qualify to know their vows, how we are able to judge them??
i guess the people who always judge or criticize other are the people who have nothing to do in life, and they think they know so much and at the end they might criticize even their own guru.
There are quality of guru/lama which you can refer in 50 verses of guru devotion, you can tell the person to check it from that though.
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This topic reminds me of how a christian friend of mine used to pull her hair out , when she tried so hard to convince me and other non Christian friends that her Lord Jesus Christ was the Son of God !
That was also one of the main reasons why I was proud of being a Buddhist ! That we are taught not to be so attached with labels ! So what , If HHDL is not enlighten ? The world did not fall in love with him because they believe him to be a boddhisatva Chenrenzig (as most Tibetans do) , they love and respect him for what he stood for and the work he accomplished. His holiness does not use the title "HHDL the enlighten one!".But far from it , he refers to himself as a simple monk.
So why get upset when others disagree whether he is enlighten or not ? This type of issues rest well in area of religious fanaticism. Holy wars are waged by people who says their God is the only God . So , please let us not head in that direction.
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I don't think any of us have even the slightest inkling what it means to be enlightened. According to the Kadampa site, enlightenment is defined by...
"Usually the full enlightenment of Buddhahood – an omniscient wisdom whose nature is the permanent cessation of mistaken appearance and whose function is to bestow mental peace on all living beings. Generally, there are three levels of enlightenment: small enlightenment, or the enlightenment of a Hearer; middling enlightenment, or the enlightenment of a Solitary Realizer; and great enlightenment, or the enlightenment of a Buddha, also known as ‘Buddhahood’. An enlightenment is a liberation and a true cessation."
So, how do you measure these qualities in the Dalai Lama or anyone else? Since, we don't have the 'eye' to observe these in a Lama, we rely upon the observation of other Lamas who are known to be attained and are therefore, reliable observers. Since many Lamas observe that the Dalai Lama is attained, he must be attained through indirect observation. There are many other signs of his spiritual accomplishments as well as his perfect control of his death and rebirth amongst many other signs. The truth of the matter, we choose to see what we want to see. Our judgement often colored by our own expectations and limitations. However, this can be changed by relying on reliable sources and the study of the Dharma. Ultimately, it is not how we view the Dalai Lama but how we regard our own Lama and our own practice in itself.
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I concur that you need not go into a song and dance if someone tells you that HHDL is not an enlightended being (or of other high lamas for that matter) - after all, he/she is entitled to her own opinion. It would be better not to encourage further talk on this and direct the conversation to other general topics.
NO need to get upset, irritated, or what not. I would say, to each his own. Do not retaliate with anything negative about your friend's religion, church or any of her religious beliefs.
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I understand that it is not easy to reply people who have deluded minds. No matter how one try to explain, they will always come up with an excuse to debate even further. There is no end. Its the same as people asking us why we believe in Buddhism so much. They can't grasp the truth in the teachings. But those who are Buddhists, we can say that, if HHDL is not Enlightened, there will be no praise for Him from esteemed High Lamas who compose praises that says HHDL IS Avalokiteshvara.
Manjushri, I believe you answer is one of the best ways to answers the non believers. There are people who will argue to the very last breath of his/her life to say that they are right and you are wrong. Whether HHDL is Enlightened or not, we as Buddhists know that and we believe in that. Try changing the topic to stop them from creating more negative thoughts and negative karma from bad speech.
As said by Lama Yeshe in a teaching.
Or you can tell them Buddha said so : ;D
The kind Guru Shakyamuni Buddha, out of his great compassion, descended to this world of Dzambu in the Arya land of India for the sole purpose of bringing benefit and happiness to migratory beings by leading us to liberation and full enlightenment.
It is said in The White Lotus Sutra:
At one time when the Buddha was residing in Milk-Plant Park, he turned to face the north and smiled. Five rays of light issued from the curled hair between his eyebrows. When the bodhisattva Meaningful to Behold asked why, the Buddha replied, “O son of the Mahayana type, there is a land in the north known as the Land of Snow where the Buddhas of the three times have not yet put their holy feet. However, in the future, the holy Dharma will spread and flourish there like the rising sun and all the living beings there will be liberated by Lord Avalokiteshvara, who once made the following prayer:
May I liberate all sentient beings in the Land of Snow, who are difficult to subdue. May I subdue them. May I lead the sentient beings in that outlying barbarous country [Tibet] on the path to liberation and full enlightenment. May even that barbarous country become a field that is subdued by me. May all the holy Dharma taught by all the Tathagatas be spread and flourish for a long time in that country. May the sentient beings there enjoy the holy Dharma by hearing the name of the Triple Gem, going for refuge and achieving the bodies of happy migratory beings.”
The bodhisattva Meaningful to Behold, to whom Guru Shakyamuni Buddha predicted the spread of Dharma in Tibet, saying, “In the future when my teaching has degenerated in India, the sentient beings in the Land of Snow in the north will be the objects to be subdued by you, the bodhisattva,” and the Compassion Buddha who made all those prayers and performed extensive benefit illuminating with the light of Dharma, is none other than the present Dalai Lama.
In conclusion, until we remove the cause of suffering, which is within us, the wrong concepts, the delusions and their imprints left on our mental continuum, those negative imprints will give rise to delusions, which motivate karma, then create the suffering of samsara. We need to develop wisdom, analyzing the spiritual path and then practice it.
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It is actually quite amazing how some people can come to such conclusions based on their little understanding of a state, in this case an enlightened being. Should we not conclude only when we have basis or at least enough understanding of a particular topic? If not, it is mere baseless assumptions!
No disrespect intended, but on a very basic level, if one were to view HHDL as a mere Buddhist monk who teaches the Dharma, what are the results HHDL has shown? Look at the accomplishments HHDL has achieved not only on the world stage but in terms of the sheer number of students and devotees that flock to see HHDL at every teaching.
If this alone is not a sign of an extraordinary being, what is? I am sure there are numerous accounts of HHDL's miraculous abilities which HHDL's close attendants could share but possible cannot purely because of HHDL's humility and compassion. However this account should blow anyone's socks off.
I recall hearing this story whereby, when HHDL was just two years old, some travelling monks found him. The tyke greeted them in the monks’ own language even though he had no reason to know it and recognized the old men as long-lost friends. HHDL at the age of two “knew all about” his previous life.
Now, it seems to me that from any objective viewpoint this is, quite simply, a miracle. Perhaps not divine if you have a certain denominational definition of the divine, but certainly a supernatural phenomena no more implausible from an atheist perspective than parting the Red Sea or turning water into wine.
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You will just have to tell your friend that you are practising one of the stanzas of "Guru Devotion" and perhaps show him this verse... and politely ask him/her not to disrespect your beliefs as you respect his and would not pass such judgement...
Verse No.3
Three times each day with supreme faith you must show the respect you have for your guru who teaches you (the Tantric path), by pressing your palms together, offering a mandala as well as flowers and prostrating (touching) your head to his feet.
As a disciple you must regard your Guru as an Enlightened Being. Even if from his own point of view he is not Enlightened and you, his disciple, have gained Buddhahood before him, you must still show him respect and pay homage. For instance, Maitreya, the fifth and next Buddha of the thousand of this world age, who now presides over Tusita Buddha-field, became Enlightened before his Guru, Sakyamuni Buddha. To demonstrate respect for his Guru, Maitreya has a stupa or reliquary monument on his forehead. Likewise Avalokitesvara, the incarnation of the compassion of all the Buddhas, is crowned in his eleven-headed aspect with the head of his Guru, Amitabha Buddha, the one who presides over Sukhavati Buddha-field.
This learning from a Guru should not be like killing a deer to extract its musk and then discarding its corpse. Even after attaining Enlightenment you must still continue to honor your Guru who made all your achievements possible.
At the end of the day... really there is no point getting upset/frustrated/angry at your friend or anyone because that it self is an EXPECTATION on your part that people MUST believe you which becomes a part of ATTACHMENT. Hence, it is better to just LET GO, SMILE, AGREE TO DISAGREE and SHOW CHENREZIG through your PRACTICE ;)
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Whether HHDL is enlightened or not...let's set this aside for now. First and foremost, let's all look around us. Does our outlook or appearance able to indicate and tell others whether we are qualified professionals (irrespective of what field) that we are qualified as? Does anyone walk around with their certificates hanging on their neck to tell the whole wide world? Be frank, we can't even deduce the people that we see on the streets are qualified as!!! So, how are we to qualify HHDL is not enlightened? We have no qualifications or the rights to judge HHDL who he is. See the successful results that HHDL has brought onto people, dharma has flourished so much now...thousands of people from all over the world would flock to his teachings where ever he goes to.
If your friend's views of an enlightened being is someone who can float and meditate on clouds, then you can't win. Maybe you can doctor a picture and show it to him. Hehe.
Please allow me to add instead of "doctoring" a picture, you can actually shared with your friend that no enlightened being or Lama has a light bulb attached to him/her to show that he is enlightened. Likewise, there's no "meter" to carry around to check that HHDL / any Lama is enlightened (I wish we have... ;D). Does your friend has? Hmmmm.... ;)
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I am of the same opinion as Manjushri (the person who started this post) and I think there is no way to know for sure unless we are enlightened ourselves!
One can refer to their biography for reference, or what I have always used as examples are what great Lamas said, but again for people who don't believe, they can choose to dismiss that as well.
The standard biography of the Second Dalai Lama (started by Yangpa Chojey in 1530) begins with the legend of Avalokiteshvara, the Buddha of Compassion, of whom the Dalai Lamas are said to be emanations. He mentioned how in ancient times Avalokiteshvara vowed to take care of Tibet; how he (Avalokiteshvara) incarnated as various kings in order to bring the enlightenment teachings to the country; and also “in the middle he came as Lama Drop to complete the work of Jowo Atisha; and finally as Gyalwa Gendun Drup (the First Dalai Lama0 he made firm the doctrines of Lama Tsongkhapa”.
Atisha once said in reply to his disciple, Ngok Lotsawa:
“Well, Ngok, as you know, Lama Drom is an incarnation of Avalokiteshvara, the Buddha of Compassion, so make a symbolic offering of the universe to him…”
Atisha then relates to Ngok Lotsawa the 36 “previous lives of Lama Drom”, each beginning with “…as you know, Lama Drom is an incarnation of Avalokiteshvara”. These 36 are embodied in chapter twenty-three of the Kadampa classic Father Dharmas Son Dharmas (Tib., Pha-chos-bu-chos).
During his lifetime the First Dalai Lama was regarded as being the reincarnation of Lama Drom. Thus the connection of His Holiness being an emanation of Avalokiteshvara was linked to the literature mentioned above as spoken by Atisha.
You can also relate what was spoken by Dagpo Rinpoche about Trijang Rinpoche and His Holiness (as Avalokiteshvara) working together to bring Buddhadharma to many in this thread on this forum:
Read what Dagpo Rinpoche says about Trijang Dorje Chang,
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1985.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1985.0)
Personally, the easiest way to judge whether a person is enlightened or not is to look at the results of activities. If their being somewhere and doing something has brought tremendous benefits and Buddhadharma to many, then their 'job' is the same as the enlightened ones.