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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: WisdomBeing on March 24, 2012, 07:52:27 AM
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This is an interesting warning by Nechung about a potential natural disaster. I do hope he is wrong or that there will be pujas done to avert this calamity.
What I found more interesting is that Dr Lobsang Sangay said, “I am a modern educated Tibetan but on the other hand, I am a Tibetan and follow Buddhist traditions,” Dr Sangay said. “So, I will be also consulting the state oracle, but that doesn’t mean I will follow what the state-oracle says.”
Is he sitting on the fence? He will consult but may not follow the advice? Will he not follow the advice of Nechung who said Dorje Shugden was a spirit?
Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=31126&article=Nechung+warns+of+natural+calamity+in+northwest+India+this+summer&t=1&c=1 (http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=31126&article=Nechung+warns+of+natural+calamity+in+northwest+India+this+summer&t=1&c=1)
Phayul[Friday, March 23, 2012 21:27]
DHARAMSHALA, March 23: Chief state oracle of Tibet, Nechung, has warned of a natural calamity in northwestern India this summer.
The Tibetan Parliament-in Exile, in a release on its website said the Nechung oracle made the divination while in trance last Friday.
“Nechung oracle in his divination warned of a natural calamity in northwestern India this coming summer,” the Tibetan Parliament said.
Many parts of northwestern India falls under the seismic zones IV and V, with V being highest risk zone for earthquakes.
The 15th Tibetan Parliament during it’s ongoing 3rd session had requested audience of the state oracles, Nechung, Gadong and Tsering Chen-nga on March 16 at the Tsug-la Khang, the main temple in Dharamshala.
According to the release, consultations were made regarding the ongoing crisis inside Tibet and His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
As part of Tibet’s ancient Buddhist traditions, consulting state oracles has been an official practice for many centuries.
The Dalai Lama, who has used what he calls the “ancient method of intelligence gathering”, said in his autobiography “Freedom in Exile” that he does not solely rely on the oracle’s advice.
“I seek his opinion in the same way as I seek the opinion of my Cabinet and just as I seek the opinion of my own conscience. I consider the gods to be my ’upper house’. The Kashag constitutes my lower house. Like any other leader, I consult both before making a decision on affairs of state,” the Tibetan spiritual leader wrote.
Shortly after assuming his responsibility as Kalon Tripa, Dr Lobsang Sangay in an interview with Phayul said that he will be following the tradition of consulting the state oracle.
“I am a modern educated Tibetan but on the other hand, I am a Tibetan and follow Buddhist traditions,” Dr Sangay said. “So, I will be also consulting the state oracle, but that doesn’t mean I will follow what the state-oracle says.”
The Tibetan Parliament release noted that Nechung, in his divination, advised the Tibetan people to increase their collective merit.
In an effort to avoid the natural calamity, the Department of Religion and Culture under the Central Tibetan Administration will be conducting specific prayer offerings as advised by the state oracle.
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I am a modern educated Brit but on the other hand, I am also Tibetan Buddhist and therefore I follow Buddhist traditions. My...nay, THE Buddhist traditions teach me that sectarianism and putting down other sects is against the teachings of compassion and acceptance. Dr Lobsang Sangay, ignoring the tradition of oracles, etc which people can always argue against... pray tell what your tradition teaches? To remain silent in the face of controversy? You know what mate? If youve no enemies, means youve never stood up for something in your life.
For those in northwest India yes I hope Nechung is wrong again, as he has been so many other times.
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Oh! I hope that Nechung orace is wrong with his divination or else it will be very sad to see India hit with a disaster! Well, Dr Lobsang Sangay do have his point there, not to follow blindly in what the state oracle says. He should consult and get opinions from his cabinet as well. More pujas should be done to help clear whatever disaster that might happen. Also make sure that food, drinks and medicines are well stocked up in the event that something happens. Well, if they just lift the ban and consult in Lord Dorje Shugden then they wouldnt be having this problem RIGHT??? ::)
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I don't get what Dr Lobsang Sangay is trying to say here.
“I am a modern educated Tibetan but on the other hand, I am a Tibetan and follow Buddhist traditions,” Dr Sangay said. “So, I will be also consulting the state oracle, but that doesn’t mean I will follow what the state-oracle says.”
If he follows Buddhist traditions, then isn't he supposed to follow what the state oracle says? I find this very contradictory and confusing.
With regards to Nechung's prophesy of northwest India, I do hope that the calamity can be averted or drastically reduced.
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What I found more interesting is that Dr Lobsang Sangay said, “I am a modern educated Tibetan but on the other hand, I am a Tibetan and follow Buddhist traditions,” Dr Sangay said. “So, I will be also consulting the state oracle, but that doesn’t mean I will follow what the state-oracle says.”
Is he sitting on the fence? He will consult but may not follow the advice? Will he not follow the advice of Nechung who said Dorje Shugden was a spirit?
The Tibetan Parliament release noted that Nechung, in his divination, advised the Tibetan people to increase their collective merit.
MAYBE Dr Lobsang Sangay should consult the Shugden oracle about this. What a bash on HH face when he said he will NOT follow the state oracle advice. Then MAYBE to save his ass, he should NOT follow the state oracle advice on banning Shugden. Then he will probably be the most popular prime minister ever.
Another thing which struck out the most for me is what Nechung said that the Tibetan people to increase their collective merits....that made sense to me. First, the lost their country, from a Tibetan Government in Exile, they have been "demoted" to just an administrative office and now natural disaster. The Tibetans better take this advice strongly and stop causing schism and bad-mouthing Shugden. Poor poor Tibetans, your leader ie Dr Lobsang Sangay might be from Harvard but everyone is still waiting for him to perform.
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Firstly, I do hope either Nechung is wrong on his divination on Northwestern India or prayers are done to prevent this from happening.
Reading through the article, I just experienced that Dr Lobsang Sangay statements are so ‘politically’ phrased and contradicting he himself. As a Tibetan Buddhist, we all know that when we ask for divination from high beings like Dharma Protector or Lamas, we should follow the instruction 100% or we should not ask for it at all. If ask but do not follow, we will be creating negative karma of having two minds in the future. If Dr Lobsang Sangay is someone that having two minds, as a leader, will he has the credibility and would anyone will believe or listen and follow him next time?
When His Holiness DL mentioned that “he does not solely rely on the oracle’s advice”, an interesting thought came to my mind. Would he think of Nechung as the un-enlightened Dharma Protector and may not see that far? If that’s the case, why not he just consult the enlightened Dharma Protector like Lord Shugden? In addition, would he also not 100% believe on what Nechung said about Lord Shugden? If that’s the case, is he at the same time looking into lifting the ban? Very interesting…… and I do hope my later thought came true. Pray hard for that!
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No disrespect... but i would take what Nechung says with a pinch of salt these days. He is after all an unenlightened protector. But having said that, there is no harm in heeding such warnings should it come true...
Or perhaps the CTA should just consult The King Dorje Shugden for a more affirmative answer! :P
I truly hope Nechung's prediction is incorrect and that the people in the areas mentioned will be spared and that it is indeed not their collective karma to experience such a calamity!
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Nechung is an unenlightened Dharma protector hence his predictions cannot be accurate. Well he had been proven very wrong in the past. Nechung had given the wrong advice to HH Dalai Lama that could have cost HH Dalai Lama’s life! The irony is that the CTA continues to consult and rely on Nechung for advice knowing very well his divinations are unreliable!
Dr. Sangay said. “So, I will be also consulting the state oracle, but that doesn’t mean I will follow what the state-oracle says.”
If Dr. Sangay will not follow what Nechung said then why consult Nechung? It simply doesn’t make sense! Could we imply that Dr. Sangay doesn’t trust Nechung? Let’s hope that Dr. Sangay will have compassion for his fellow Tibetan citizens who are Dorje Shugden followers. If Dr. Sangay had analysed the whole issues surrounding the ban on Dorje Shugden, he will not hesitate to initiate the lift on the ban which is long overdue.
As for the prediction on the natural disaster, why doesn’t CTA consult an enlightened and fully reliable protector like Dorje Shugden? Would you trust a Wisdom Buddha – Dorje Shugden or a spirit - Nechung?
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What does Dr Lobsang Sangay mean by consulting Nechung but may not follow Nechung's advice? If you are not going to follow, what consult in the first place?
I believe Dr Lobsang Sangay is not really a religious person, he is more wordly (nothing wrong with that) and would like to run the Tibetan community using democratic system rather than religious system, but this is a transition period, he canot completely cut off from the old system just yet, therefore he has to make statement such as that above, it will calm the mind of many especially those form the previous system, so his apparently contradicting statement is understandable, that is called "politics".
As for Nechung, he has been wrong for so many times, the biggest blunder was during the 90s when he predicted that the Dalai Lama and Tibetans will be able to go back to Tibet in 5 years time, so everybody was elated, they packed their stuff, waiting for that day to come, but it never happened.
Another big blunder was during 1959 when he asked the Dalai Lama to stay back while Dorje Shugden asked the Dalai Lama to leave, if they listened to Nechung, most probably we wouldn't have heard of the 14th Dalai Lama today, with all due respect.
It he can be wrong for such a big thing, definitely he can be wrong for smaller thing like this natural calamity thing, the Tibetans should take it with not a pinch but a handful of salt.
Should have listened to Dorje Shugden, past, present, and future.
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Why would anybody want to hear a prophecy from a being that is famous for making enormous errors. You never know when you are going receive an answer that will come true. The truth is Nechung is not enlightened and therefore not a true object of refuge at all.
That means we cannot rely on Nechung and that whatever he says should be taken with a pinch of salt. With all the evidence lined-up, why would anybody still wanna believe Nechung. Besides the fact that he is working with the Dalai Lama, there is no other vote of confidence at all. However, in this case, we should nonetheless keep our eyes and ears peeled regarding this matter.
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What I found more interesting is that Dr Lobsang Sangay said, “I am a modern educated Tibetan but on the other hand, I am a Tibetan and follow Buddhist traditions,” Dr Sangay said. “So, I will be also consulting the state oracle, but that doesn’t mean I will follow what the state-oracle says.”
Is he sitting on the fence? He will consult but may not follow the advice? Will he not follow the advice of Nechung who said Dorje Shugden was a spirit?
The statement made by Dr Lobsang Sangay that he would follow buddhist traditions of consulting the state oracle but that did not mean he would follow the advice from the State oracle is indeed like having a needle with both ends sharp. Either he is a smart politican or he just does not know what the traditions of consulting oracle is all about.
My opinion to what he said :
1) He is aware of the inaccuarcy of Nechung, but as a respect to the Tibetan traditions, he would folow and consult the state oracle rather than making too much big changes at one time.
2) He gives himdself some free way to move around his stance in future, that Nechung has said Dorje Shugden is a spirit and he might not take this as an advice also, which he played very smartly as a politican.
3) I dont quite buy the fact that he does not understand that one needs to follow through the advice of the state oracle after divination, becasue as a Tibetan, he should be well taught of this. So I would take him playing the smart politican here and giving him the power in future to do the necessary as he deems condusive for the country as circumstances arise.
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Can Nechung predictions be trusted after all he had made many mistakes in the past with his predictions? So I hope this time he is wrong again.
Lobsang Sangay said that he may not follow what the state oracle says. If he is a Tibetan and follows Buddhist tradition, isn’t he supposed to listen to the state oracle advice unless he does not trust Nechung. If that’s the case, why not consult Dorje Shugden who can give clear and correct answers.
I hope the collective karma of the people will not manifest in the form of natural calamities and if it were to happen may Dorje Shugden avert or reduce the calamities.
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As there are earthquakes fairly often, the prediciton is a fairly safe bet - early in March there was a 4.9 strength earthquake. Maybe the oracle heard about it and maybe heard predicitons thta other will follow.
Sometimes you don't need to be an oracle - just read the Times of India. LOL :)
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This will be a very interesting test to see if Nechung is really accurate or has he become unreliable over time. If nothing happens, the Tibetans and the whole world will know that he is lying and unreliable. HHDL may let him get away with it but the current Tibetan Government will not. They will simply discredit and dismiss him. After all, who wants someone unreliable to help rule the country?
After all the mistakes that Nechung has consistently made, including making false predictions that does not do anything else but placate the people and make empty promises that hold no water. I am still quite surprised to see that the CTA still trusts Nechung despite causing the deaths of 700 Tibetan soldiers needlessly. They could have been saved if they did not follow Nechung's "advice" to go and fight.
Obviously, not learning from history can be quite a painful and humiliating lesson from many, and it seems that the Tibetans still have not learnt anything despite them losing the country to China and also the downgrading of their government to the status of an administration. They have not learnt anything at all from other countries around them, nor have they learnt anything about taking care of their own country.
I don't see anything wrong with following nechung's advice, but if he has a bad track record, would it not be better to actually stop consulting him? Well, as much as he deserve a chance, he is going to be responsible for the Tibetan people's happiness and if he fails, he should really be fired from being one of the advisors for the government simply because he is not performing.
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Nechung with another great prediction. I wonder whether this prediction will be accurate this time around. With so many inaccurate predictions over the period that Nechung has been State Oracle, it is hard to trust him. At least this disaster that he has predicted is a warning, instead of an advise.. If the natural calamity occurs, then good, Nechung warned and the people were aware of and prepared for it..but if it doesn't, then at least the people were prepared. Either ways, at least this is not a direct case of life and death. Anyways I don't understand why Nechung is relied upon so much.. but at least HHDL said that he does not rely on the advises of the Oracle alone. He will also consult his cabinet and consciousness. Just like what Dr Lobsang Sangay said.. that he will consult the state oracle but it doesn't necessarily mean that he will follow the advises of the state Oracle.
He's left an open door.. that could work in his favour in the future. Who knows. Maybe he really is working towards the segregation of politics and religion.
Just a quick thought though... What's the point of consulting when you're not going to follow? Its like having divination done and then not seeing the advises through - it'll just affect the accuracy of the divination the next time you request for one, no?
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This is indeed serious considering it is a natural disaster. If this prediction comes true, it will bring a lot suffering to people in India.
Nechung is not an enlightened being, I sincerely wish his prediction is not accurate.... Then again, as Tibetan government's State Oracle for so long, Nechung has his own reputation... surely he has a basis for making public this prediction. Let just hope this so-called calamity is at a very much lower scale...
It is of course very important for Tibetan government to consult other oracles as well as consulting the relevant Indian authorities based on scientific data to determine their next course of actions to prepare the Tibetan people in India to face this potential calamity.
Salute to the Japanese, their Japan Meteorological Agency constantly monitoring all signs of possible earthquake, tsunami, volcano activities etc. with modern and advanced equipment; and send out warnings accordingly. LIke this people is well prepared rather becoming panic and create chaos.
It is better to be safe than sorry.
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It's december now and there isnt any natural disasters in India since the prediction. When is summer for India again? So again as we can witness here, Nechung is inaccurate again, but yet HHDL keeps consulting him again and again...perhaps to placate the Nyingmas or to prevent Nechung from being upset? I have no idea, but what is very clear is that all of these clues point that Nechung's time has ended and they should really just switch to Dorje Shugden already.
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@Ensapa That's true, there hasn't been any natural disasters since the prediction...
I feel that by Dr Lobsang Sangay saying, “... I will be also consulting the state oracle, but that doesn’t mean I will follow what the state-oracle says” it only works against the Tibetan Buddhist tradition as a whole. He's indirectly saying that we can consult a higher power, and not have to listen. Why even ask at all then?
It doesn't help that the Nechung oracle doesn't get his predictions and prophecies right either.
These inconsistencies further adds to creating confusion. There is already so much confusion pervading within the Tibetan community, e.g. "there are 2 karmapa's?", "there are 2 panchen lama's?", "i'm not allowed to practice DS but my root guru gave me the practice - how?", "the monastery has split, which one should i join?".
The people need a solid person that they can trust. One that is fair, unbiased, (perceived to be) of a higher power and influential. His Holiness the Dalai Lama best fits this role thus far, but ironically, He plays a part in all events of confusion. Is there a reason for this?
What will happen when the one person that all Tibetans have full faith in enters into clear light, what will happen to the people?
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Relying on Nechung for advise is like relying upon a worldly person for advise, His track record is disappointing. I wonder if it is actually Pehar appearing and not Ngatrul.
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Well, to all casual observers, Nechung/Pehar seemed unenlightened and capable of making great mistakes! How can this be? According to Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's writings in Music Delighting an Ocean of Protectors pg 111, he is enlightened and is just manifesting mistakes. Check this out:-
As quoted by Lelung Shepay Dorje who kept Losel Gyatso's genuine miscellaneous writings in order, it says,
To take an example, those such as the great yaksha Tsiu Marpo and King Pehar are, in actuality, definitely Buddhas, and fully renowned as protectors of Buddha's teachings. Yet the story is told of how Pehar experienced obstacles and did not complete his Dharma practice and there are many stories of his harming Dharma practitioners. Many great beings that have gone to Samye Monastery tell of a great yaksha making them leave. As regards wrathful types of action, Ra Lotsawa did away with thirteen vajra masters such as Darma Dode with fire pujas, and all of his actions were only those of a Buddha performed with special awareness for necessary reasons. With one expression Pehar may help someone, and with another he may obstruct someone, but his actions are not conceivable to ordinary thought. When dispatched for activity, Pehar is made offerings in the aspect of a Dharma protector and requested to perform activities, while, on the other hand, the very same Pehar is often dispatched on missions in the aspect of a demon. Understanding these profound points alone is completely liberating. Still, if I am criticized because this does not conform to modern belief systems or is difficult for the Geshes to comprehend, I can only say, I am sorry.
Taking Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's writings into consideration, this leads me to think that perhaps Nechung is manifesting these mistakes for a reason. I can't say for sure what this reason is but I can tell that it is related to Dorje Shugden and how he will eventually take over to be the King of all Protectors, which is a popular Tibetan legend before the days of the Dalai Lama's ban. Just read about this interesting legend in the article Universal Protector of Future Buddhism - http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/universal-protector-of-future-buddhism/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/universal-protector-of-future-buddhism/).
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Well, to all casual observers, Nechung/Pehar seemed unenlightened and capable of making great mistakes! How can this be? According to Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's writings in Music Delighting an Ocean of Protectors pg 111, he is enlightened and is just manifesting mistakes. Check this out:-
As quoted by Lelung Shepay Dorje who kept Losel Gyatso's genuine miscellaneous writings in order, it says,
To take an example, those such as the great yaksha Tsiu Marpo and King Pehar are, in actuality, definitely Buddhas, and fully renowned as protectors of Buddha's teachings. Yet the story is told of how Pehar experienced obstacles and did not complete his Dharma practice and there are many stories of his harming Dharma practitioners. Many great beings that have gone to Samye Monastery tell of a great yaksha making them leave. As regards wrathful types of action, Ra Lotsawa did away with thirteen vajra masters such as Darma Dode with fire pujas, and all of his actions were only those of a Buddha performed with special awareness for necessary reasons. With one expression Pehar may help someone, and with another he may obstruct someone, but his actions are not conceivable to ordinary thought. When dispatched for activity, Pehar is made offerings in the aspect of a Dharma protector and requested to perform activities, while, on the other hand, the very same Pehar is often dispatched on missions in the aspect of a demon. Understanding these profound points alone is completely liberating. Still, if I am criticized because this does not conform to modern belief systems or is difficult for the Geshes to comprehend, I can only say, I am sorry.
Taking Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's writings into consideration, this leads me to think that perhaps Nechung is manifesting these mistakes for a reason. I can't say for sure what this reason is but I can tell that it is related to Dorje Shugden and how he will eventually take over to be the King of all Protectors, which is a popular Tibetan legend before the days of the Dalai Lama's ban. Just read about this interesting legend in the article Universal Protector of Future Buddhism - [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/universal-protector-of-future-buddhism/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/universal-protector-of-future-buddhism/[/url]).
hmm now that you put it this way, I do concur that it could be part of a bigger plan to showcase Dorje Shugden as the supreme Dharma protector. If you read all the clues that have been leading up until now, it all points to Dorje Shugden's rise. Nechung starts to be inaccurate in his predictions for the Ganden Phodrang. The 16th Karmapa told a nyingma temple that they would have no choice but to rely on Dorje Shugden in the future. then the ban. then the weird way that the Dalai Lama promoted the ban where he kept telling people to check and double check his words. The Dalai Lama saying that Trijang Rinpoche can practice but said his Gurus were wrong for practicing. And at 2011 he says its a choice. It seems that he is getting less and less strict about the ban...and to its eventual lifting.
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The Indian Summer has been and gone... No calamity was there? What does that say about the predictions of Nechung? Is it yet another inaccurate prediction? Why is there such a reliance on Nechung through the State Oracle by HHDL when Nechung has proved time and time again to be inaccurate?
Is it because Nechung is unenlightened and hence his clairvoyance is limited? Or is it the medium of Nechung's communication, the Oracle that is the problem? Why I say this is because, the Oracle is but a vehicle and if this vehicle is impure or polluted, the channels are open to other beings that may enter the Oracle and give these wrong predictions... The predictions of an Oracle are only as accurate as their pure states, especially so if they take trance of an unenlightened being.
(http://www.veritefeatures.com/img/films/legacy/oracle_480.jpg)
NECHUNG ORACLE
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The Indian Summer has been and gone... No calamity was there? What does that say about the predictions of Nechung? Is it yet another inaccurate prediction? Why is there such a reliance on Nechung through the State Oracle by HHDL when Nechung has proved time and time again to be inaccurate?
Is it because Nechung is unenlightened and hence his clairvoyance is limited? Or is it the medium of Nechung's communication, the Oracle that is the problem? Why I say this is because, the Oracle is but a vehicle and if this vehicle is impure or polluted, the channels are open to other beings that may enter the Oracle and give these wrong predictions... The predictions of an Oracle are only as accurate as their pure states, especially so if they take trance of an unenlightened being.
([url]http://www.veritefeatures.com/img/films/legacy/oracle_480.jpg[/url])
NECHUNG ORACLE
Perhaps it is a way for nechung to tell everyone to not consult him anymore? Nechung traditionally hates the ganden phodrang and historically shows a lot of disrespect to them when he takes trance but he stops when the Dalai Lama arrives. (its not a mystery why he hates them at all) so the inaccurate predictions could be mocking the CTA to make them lose face and look like backward people. The sikyong should stop consulting the medium as there are more educated Tibetans who are unhappy with this practice as it reflects the backwardness of the CTA in general and he should focus on issues such as improving Dharamsala and getting into talks with China. Sadly, CTA until now is still very focused on Dorje Shugden. They should just stop it already. No point spending time and resources for a spiritual matter when you're a secular government.
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Nechung can only be 'wrong' when his instructions are not fully carried out changing the course of karma or not fulfilling the course of the karma.
Karma can be changed by the infusion of merits or demerits. If after the advice is given and we continue the demerits then his prophecies cannot be fulfilled. Simple as that.
So it's not Nechung who gives wrong advice, but our lack of effort to follow instructions that allows Nechung's words to become unfulfilled. If you don't control your defilements you prove your guru and Dharma wrong-Full stop! If Nechung can be wrong, then you automatically point the finger at Guru Padmasambhava who subdued and charged Nechung to assist Tibet and the Holders of the White Lotus (HHDL). How can Guru Rinpoche be wrong. Impossible.
You claim Trijang Rinpoche cannot be wrong so that proves Dhogyal is good. By the same logic, Guru Rinpoche cannot be wrong about Nechung. Comprendi?
:)
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Nechung can only be 'wrong' when his instructions are not fully carried out changing the course of karma or not fulfilling the course of the karma.
Karma can be changed by the infusion of merits or demerits. If after the advice is given and we continue the demerits then his prophecies cannot be fulfilled. Simple as that.
So it's not Nechung who gives wrong advice, but our lack of effort to follow instructions that allows Nechung's words to become unfulfilled. If you don't control your defilements you prove your guru and Dharma wrong-Full stop! If Nechung can be wrong, then you automatically point the finger at Guru Padmasambhava who subdued and charged Nechung to assist Tibet and the Holders of the White Lotus (HHDL). How can Guru Rinpoche be wrong. Impossible.
You claim Trijang Rinpoche cannot be wrong so that proves Dhogyal is good. By the same logic, Guru Rinpoche cannot be wrong about Nechung. Comprendi?
:)
Well like ive said it could be that Nechung is being "wrong" to prove a point. Maybe he is wrong on purpose to showcase Dorje Shugden perhaps? Or that he is 'wrong' to show his displeasure to the CTA for their wrongdoings over the centuries. The other question is that Nechung is not enlightened. Guru Rinpoche put him under an oath to protect the Dharma holder of Tibet. If Nechung was not serving the Dharma wholeheartedly he would not have asked Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen to manifest as a Dharma protector as Dorje Shugden. Why would he be against a Dharma protector that he 'created'?
Also, how can you explain this, Tenzin Gyatso? I would like to hear how you reconcile this prophecy by Pehar/Nechung:
Pehar's Warning For Vengeance:
It is true that the oracle god has sworn an oath of loyalty, but it is — in the lamas’ opinion — by no means ruled out that he may one day break this and unleash his full vengeance upon the Tibetans who defeated him in times gone by. He has in his own words explained to Padmasambhava what will then happen. He will destroy the houses and the fields. The children of the Land of Snows will have to endure famine and will be driven insane. The fruit of the and will be destroyed by hail and swarms of insects. The strong will be carried off and only the weak shall survive. Wars shall devastate the roof of the world. Pehar himself will interrupt the meditations of the lamas, rob their spells of their magic power, and force them to commit suicide. Brothers will rape their sisters. He will make the wisdom consorts (the mudras) of the tantra masters bad and heretical, yes, transform them into enemies of the teaching who emigrate to the lands of the unbelievers. But first he shall copulate with them. “I,” Pehar proclaims, “the lord of the temples, the stupas and scriptures, I shall possess the fair bodies of all virgins” (source: Sierksma, 1966, p. 165).
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Nechung can only be 'wrong' when his instructions are not fully carried out changing the course of karma or not fulfilling the course of the karma.
Karma can be changed by the infusion of merits or demerits. If after the advice is given and we continue the demerits then his prophecies cannot be fulfilled. Simple as that.
So it's not Nechung who gives wrong advice, but our lack of effort to follow instructions that allows Nechung's words to become unfulfilled. If you don't control your defilements you prove your guru and Dharma wrong-Full stop! If Nechung can be wrong, then you automatically point the finger at Guru Padmasambhava who subdued and charged Nechung to assist Tibet and the Holders of the White Lotus (HHDL). How can Guru Rinpoche be wrong. Impossible.
You claim Trijang Rinpoche cannot be wrong so that proves Dhogyal is good. By the same logic, Guru Rinpoche cannot be wrong about Nechung. Comprendi?
:)
If Nechung was not serving the Dharma wholeheartedly he would not have asked Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen to manifest as a Dharma protector as Dorje Shugden. Why would he be against a Dharma protector that he 'created'?
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Yes indeed... if Nechung cannot be wrong... Hence Dorje Shugden which was requested by Nechung to arise and protect the great teachings of the middle view, Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings, then, we could say Dorje Shugden is not wrong for sure!
So therefore Dorje Shugden a protector that was indirectly created by Nechung, definitely would be okay, isn't it when we based on logic? Can this part on Nechug be explained... one minute he is right, next he is wrong.
And how would we know who's who when Nechung takes trance through the oracle? There are basically 5 powerful spirits, Pehar being the leader of all 5, so how do you know if it is Nechung who enters the oracle it could also be something/someone else, who's to know really? After all he is a "spirit" and still unenlightened???!
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Firstly, Lobsang Sangay needs to really use his Harvard education to make a firm stand in his stance. He either believes and consults the Oracle or none at all. What nonsense to say I will consult but may not follow. What is he saying? Let's test our faith is it? Personally to me I would not have any confidence on any leader whose stance is so wishy-washy...
Now as for the predictions of Nechung, he has been right before when his predicament saved the population of Tibetan capital from being poisoned by members of Nepalese community. On the other hand, he also made some predictions which were wrong and saved by Dorje Shugden prediction. This being the case of HHDL escape from Tibet during invasion by the Chinese. If they had followed Nechung's advise there will be no HHDL today.
There are many arguments in favor and against. I like this link, please read and decide for yourself:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/tibets-freedom-is-near/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/tibets-freedom-is-near/)
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Firstly, Lobsang Sangay needs to really use his Harvard education to make a firm stand in his stance. He either believes and consults the Oracle or none at all. What nonsense to say I will consult but may not follow. What is he saying? Let's test our faith is it? Personally to me I would not have any confidence on any leader whose stance is so wishy-washy...
Now as for the predictions of Nechung, he has been right before when his predicament saved the population of Tibetan capital from being poisoned by members of Nepalese community. On the other hand, he also made some predictions which were wrong and saved by Dorje Shugden prediction. This being the case of HHDL escape from Tibet during invasion by the Chinese. If they had followed Nechung's advise there will be no HHDL today.
There are many arguments in favor and against. I like this link, please read and decide for yourself:
[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/tibets-freedom-is-near/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/tibets-freedom-is-near/[/url])
Lobsang Sanggay should take a stand. It's either that he presents himself as a well educated harvard graduate or he sticks by the traditional rules and traditions. He cant be in between and choose to follow the traditions. If he chooses to follow the traditional methods, he would disappoint many a Tibetan who would hope that he would be different from the others. But it has been more than a year now and he also has not done much to reform the CTA and also improve the conditions in Dharamsala. The very least he could do would be to lift the Dorje Shugden ban. But even that he is unable to do at all.
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Firstly, Lobsang Sangay needs to really use his Harvard education to make a firm stand in his stance. He either believes and consults the Oracle or none at all. What nonsense to say I will consult but may not follow. What is he saying? Let's test our faith is it? Personally to me I would not have any confidence on any leader whose stance is so wishy-washy...
Now as for the predictions of Nechung, he has been right before when his predicament saved the population of Tibetan capital from being poisoned by members of Nepalese community. On the other hand, he also made some predictions which were wrong and saved by Dorje Shugden prediction. This being the case of HHDL escape from Tibet during invasion by the Chinese. If they had followed Nechung's advise there will be no HHDL today.
There are many arguments in favor and against. I like this link, please read and decide for yourself:
[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/tibets-freedom-is-near/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/tibets-freedom-is-near/[/url])
I just realized something here.......That a person of "callibre" such as the sikyong's attitude towards the divine is just for reference here. Given that Guru Rinpoche has entrusted his orders and oath on Nechung to help the Dalai Lama and of course the Tibetan Government, it is the Guru's orders that binds Nechung to give accurate prophecies which is suppose to help the cause of Tibet. Yet at this juncture, we see that these pronouncements are just taken with pails of salt by the very people whom they are entrusted to!
No wonder so many high Lamas of the Gelug order do not propitiate or consult Nechung. The risk is too high for spiritual matters to go through him. It is only fair and just that a protector of the lineage such as Dorje Shugden be consulted And when consulted, the answers works wonders for the devotee as they come from none other than Manjushri himself!
As such these answers are taken to heart and the result will show with time and devotion. This sends out the message that followers of Dorje Shugden are actually upholding this tradition of having oracles which are effective in bringing out the best in both our spiritual and secular undertakings.
We should not take Dorje Shugden just as reference but should take them dearly to heart. It could only mean that he wants the best for us like a father for his only child.
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Dear All,
I have a question... We know of many mistakes, or inaccuracies, with the predicaments by Nechung who was subdued by the powerful enlightened Guru Rinpoche. Based on this I would like to believe that Nechung is powerful. I have also read that other spirits can also enter the Nechung oracle giving very detrimental results. How is this possible? Is the oracle contaminated? If so, then is it the fault of Nechung or the corrupted oracle that many predictions have gone wrong?
What are your views?
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Dear All,
I have a question... We know of many mistakes, or inaccuracies, with the predicaments by Nechung who was subdued by the powerful enlightened Guru Rinpoche. Based on this I would like to believe that Nechung is powerful. I have also read that other spirits can also enter the Nechung oracle giving very detrimental results. How is this possible? Is the oracle contaminated? If so, then is it the fault of Nechung or the corrupted oracle that many predictions have gone wrong?
What are your views?
Hi Diamond Girl,
there has been a story that has been going around that it is not Nechung himself but the spirit of a high lama who wants to harm the Dalai Lama impersonating Nechung:
Nechung’s Follies, Nyagtru’s Revenge
Omitted so far from this essay is Bell’s account of a scapegoat for the Nechung oracle’s mistaken actions and advice. First, it is necessary to understand a rather unfortunate political intrigue earlier in the life of the 13th Dalai Lama that has been recounted in various books; the account also has been active orally with older monks and lamas. Although it could be dismissed as superstition, any Tibetan history book of that era would be incomplete without it. Melvin Goldstein’s History of Modern Tibet, 1913-1951 (pages 42-43) summarizes this incident, this account being more sympathetic to Demo Rimpoche’s motivation than others:
No sooner had the 13th Dalai Lama become the ruler of Tibet than Demo Rimpoche, the regent of the 13th Dalai Lama’s minority, attempted to regain power by killing him through Buddhist black magic. It appears that after Demo Rimpoche relinquished power to the 13th Dalai Lama, his enemies began to exact revenge on him by harming his supporters and friends. Helpless to protect them, the ex-regent and his brother and manager, Norbu Tsering, became increasingly frustrated and bitter. Norbu Tsering enlisted the help of a lama known as Nyagtru, from Nyarong in Eastern Tibet, who used the deity Shinje Tsheda in his black magic rites and ultimately prepared a particularly powerful mantra which consisted of the figure of a man with outstretched arms and legs. Surrounding this figure were various written mantras, and inside its body the words Thubten Gyatso and chiwa were written: Thubten Gyatso was the personal name of the 13th Dalai Lama, and chiwa was his birth year. This black mantra was put inside the sole of a beautiful pair of new boots which Demo Rinpoche sent as a gift to Sogya, another Khamba lama who had achieved a high level of spiritual development through the diety Shinje Tsheda and whose own spiritual development, it was believed would synergistically increase the power of the black magic and end the Dalai Lama’s life.
But this plot was perhaps successfully foiled by the Nechung Oracle, per Goldstein:
The official version of the incident reports that the state oracle, Nechung, prophesied that the Dalai Lama’s life was in danger and that the boots recently given to a Sogya Lama should be investigated. Sogya was summoned and he confirmed that he had received the boots; he added that the boots were strange, for when he put them on his nose started to bleed. The boots were immediately sent for and taken apart in front of everybody, and the mantra was found in the inner sole. It appears more likely, however, that Sogya Lama discovered the plot and informed the Dalai Lama or his officials and that Nechung then opened the soles and found the black magic mantra.
Goldstein’s account states that as a result Demo Rimpoche, Norbu Tsering, Nyagtru and others were arrested. Demo Rimpoche died while under house arrest, while Nyagtru and Norbu Tsering died later or were perhaps killed. Sir Charles Bell relates the same previous story in brief, but continues where the previous account ends. In particular, he writes that Nyagtru’s death was indeed violent (page 437):
The tulku was arrested, put in prison, and given many severe floggings with the usual leather thongs on his bare skin, so that his flesh hung in strips after each flogging. But he was a Lama of great learning and ability, and he used to meditate on ‘the void.’ So it was noticed that during each flogging, severe though it was, he uttered no exclamation of pain, not even the smallest sound. And what was still more remarkable, by the next day his flesh had entirely healed.
And, per Bell’s account, the monk escapes this situation through suicide. Yet another source states that he died after vivisection at the hands of his captors:
At length, however, angry in this treatment, the Nyarong tulku asked the warder in charge of him for a small knife to cut a lump out of his boot. The warder gave it. When the lama went to pay a call of nature, he used the opportunity to cut his throat. The warder rushed up to seize him, so the lama jumped out of the window of his cell, which was two floors above the ground. The fall killed him.
Although Nyagtru dies here, the import of the story is only beginning. Bell continues:
Passing from this life thus, in anger at the treatment he had received, he reincarnated as a devil, and being of great learning and ability, as a powerful devil. So a high lama of eastern Tibet was engaged to catch the tulku’s mind, put it in the ground, and build a choten over it. This was done; the choten was strongly built, and the necessary articles - religious books and the like were placed inside of it. But a day or two afterwards a great vertical crack was seen in the choten. There had been no earthquake or thunderstorm, and it was clear that the devil was one of great power, and so the mind was able to crack the choten and escape through it.
And this “devil,” according to Bell’s account was responsible for interfering with the Nechung Oracle:
This and other evil counsels were not the true utterances of the Oracle, but were put into the mind of the prophet by this evil. And it was this devil who instigated the prophet to give this deadly medicine.
I first heard of Nyagtru’s tale from an old Shugden lama. Given its superstitious nature, I was naturally skeptical about it. Yet upon seeing this in Bell’s account, written not long after Dalai Lama’s death, it legitimized its historical provenance, whether it is actually true or not. Finally, regarding the so-called devil Nyagtru, Bell states, “This is the only instance which I heard that a tulku had been reborn as a devil.” The implications of this statement are great, namely that if the 13th Dalai Lama considered Dorje Shugden as a demon or devil—as the 14th Dalai Lama suggests he did—then certainly the 13th would have recounted to Bell the allegation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen also having been reborn as a devil.
source: http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/did-the-13th-dalai-lama-ban-dorje-shugden.html (http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/did-the-13th-dalai-lama-ban-dorje-shugden.html)
It sounds odd that someone who has realized emptiness would want to commit misdeeds....but