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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: hope rainbow on March 17, 2012, 11:24:55 AM
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In my Western world, I often face a situation in which I am expected to "proof" that the law of karma does exist.
I often say then that I can't do that, I can't prove karma.
But everyone can prove it to themselves by logic, inference and experience. It is up to everyone to look at what the Buddha thought on karma, with an open mind, and find out for themselves. In that process I can share with others what I have learned from the teachings on karma, it is about all I can do.
I also say this: in other cultures, the opposite question would be asked to anyone going there and telling people around that the law of karma "does not" exist... They would be very skeptical and ask the opposite question: "can you prove that the law of karma does not exist?".
Now that is a real challenge, for there are many approaches to reach at least a founded opinion on the law of karma as being, at least, the most logical possibility, but there is absolutely no logic, nor inference, nor experience that can back up or prove that the law of karma does not exist.
So, this can become another debate in Western culture environment: "I can't prove to you that the law of karma is real, but can you prove to me that it does NOT exist?"
Then, we take every single fact of life and align them with the teachings of the Buddha and we see if they can be explained by the law of karma and we find that every single one can be explained.
We do the same and try to align experience and facts with the posit that karma does not exist, and we find that nothing can prove such thought.
Then we have the usual answer: randomness.
I have been born random in this body, my parents are random, my school is random, my wife is random, my jod, my education, or my lack of it, my disability, my car accident was random, my broken leg, my illnesses are random....
It is usually the same scientific minds that are trying to disprove karma that come up with so many irrational, un-scientific conclusions that randomness is the rule.
Let's say it then, even the big-bang was random...
Randomness is the only answer to find after we have been on the look-out for causes and as we get closer to find out directly the reality of the law of karma and yet refuse to face it.
So I'll debate here:
Question 1: "CAN YOU PROVE THAT KARMA DOES NOT EXIST?"
Question 2: "WHY IS IT SO SCARY TO ALLOW OURSELVES TO SHIFT AND RECOGNIZE THE REALITY OF KARMA, WHAT IS MAKING US HIT THE 'PANIC BUTTON' WHEN WE GET CLOSER TO THAT REALIZATION? WHY?"
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The law of karma can be proven to not exist if we continue to live in denial, that we are happy, that there's a great big grandaddy that we all cannot see that will grant us our every wish as long as we pray to him. Deny that suffering exists and that it can be avoided, that life is about happiness, rainbows and joy. That happiness is measured by how much material things a person has rather than how happy the person actually feels.
Unfortunately many people prefer to believe that happiness is how much friends you have, how much material gains you have and how happy you show people you are. The reason is simple: because they are unable to face the fact that to have real happiness, they have to address the issues that is bothering them deep in their hearts. So they choose the easier path of covering it up with material happiness.
Sometimes, it is not an issue of getting them to believe in karma but to get them to look past their self denial and self deception. We all have things and facts about ourselves that we do not wish to face even though it will make us a better person because it is just too painful for most people to face. Many people would rather sacrifice their friends and energy and even sell their souls just to escape from that fact.
If your friends can't accept karma, chances are they are in deep denial about something that is painful in their life which they refuse to accept. Asking them to accept would probably trigger off their emotional sore spots and put them in a defensive mode, so better to let them just be. If they keep insisting, make the face their own issues and if they can they will accept karma naturally.
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In my Western world, I often face a situation in which I am expected to "proof" that the law of karma does exist.
I often say then that I can't do that, I can't prove karma.
But everyone can prove it to themselves by logic, inference and experience. It is up to everyone to look at what the Buddha thought on karma, with an open mind, and find out for themselves. In that process I can share with others what I have learned from the teachings on karma, it is about all I can do.
I also say this: in other cultures, the opposite question would be asked to anyone going there and telling people around that the law of karma "does not" exist... They would be very skeptical and ask the opposite question: "can you prove that the law of karma does not exist?".
Now that is a real challenge, for there are many approaches to reach at least a founded opinion on the law of karma as being, at least, the most logical possibility, but there is absolutely no logic, nor inference, nor experience that can back up or prove that the law of karma does not exist.
So, this can become another debate in Western culture environment: "I can't prove to you that the law of karma is real, but can you prove to me that it does NOT exist?"
Then, we take every single fact of life and align them with the teachings of the Buddha and we see if they can be explained by the law of karma and we find that every single one can be explained.
We do the same and try to align experience and facts with the posit that karma does not exist, and we find that nothing can prove such thought.
Then we have the usual answer: randomness.
I have been born random in this body, my parents are random, my school is random, my wife is random, my jod, my education, or my lack of it, my disability, my car accident was random, my broken leg, my illnesses are random....
It is usually the same scientific minds that are trying to disprove karma that come up with so many irrational, un-scientific conclusions that randomness is the rule.
Let's say it then, even the big-bang was random...
Randomness is the only answer to find after we have been on the look-out for causes and as we get closer to find out directly the reality of the law of karma and yet refuse to face it.
So I'll debate here:
Question 1: "CAN YOU PROVE THAT KARMA DOES NOT EXIST?"
Question 2: "WHY IS IT SO SCARY TO ALLOW OURSELVES TO SHIFT AND RECOGNIZE THE REALITY OF KARMA, WHAT IS MAKING US HIT THE 'PANIC BUTTON' WHEN WE GET CLOSER TO THAT REALIZATION? WHY?"
Question 1 :
I cant prove karma does not exist. Even though I try to....but not all things can be explained by luck, fate or destiny.....I believe karma DOES exist as many a times, I am just dump founded with things that happen to my life, even though I think I do not deserve them. But they happen........so am I always being unlucky??? am I always the black sheep? Am I always the one to suffer?..........
Quesion 2:
I am not scary of karma, I just learn to accept it with grace, the least I can do, and to continue practise the 8 versus of mind transformation, becasue whether one believes in karma or not, pratising the 8 versus of mind transformation will only make one a better person. And I believe everyone DO want to become a better person.
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I do frequently get those questions too!
People often misunderstood the meaning of karma. The term is very commonly used without knowing the true meaning. They think it's this unforeseen power that will get back at you when you do something wrong. or they use karma to explain bad things that have happened to them.
Karma is cause and effect. Action causes reaction. So how is it possible karma not exist? Let's not even talk past this lifetime. Karma happens daily even with mundane activity. When you eat (action), you feel full (result).
When someone experiences pain and misery will they start to believe karma do exist. Otherwise, life and god is unfair. People choose to blame rather than accept responsibilities for their own fate. It is less scary to know that we have the power to change our fate rather than a mere puppet to some unforeseen power we have no control of. Living life that way is wayyy scarier.
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I can't prove that Karma does not exist but how many people that believe about it? or people who do believe do something about it? In my country when talking about karma, most of people refer it as bad karma, and less people whom understand that there is good and bad karma. Therefore when they face with difficulties or something bad happen with them, they will claim that it come from their karma (mean bad karma) and do nothing about it. Sad isn't it.
In my opinions even things that can be proved but its doesn't mean that people will believe it eg smoke cigarette will cause lung cancer but how many people still smoke even they know that every time that they smoke, they create a cause to have a lung cancer and how many people stop smoke because of scare of it?
So there are many facts that people do believe but not follow so therefore i feel that most of people are accept and acknowledge about Karma do exist but they just do nothing about it as everything in their life still go well, they will realize about it only when something bad happen continuously and they are unable to solve it and it beyond their thought and that how spiritual take part for them which i will say its come from faith.
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This topic reminds me of an article I read on a conversation between Einstein and his teacher. Einstein proved to his teacher that darkness does not exist, but merely a term used by man to describe when there is no light present. So, although darkness theoritically does not exist, however we can experience the state of being in darkness. That's like karma.
There's many factors that causes a person to fear the truth about karma. I suppose it feels scary because people/we do not totally understand to true nature of karma, fearing the unknown. It could also be due to denial, the fear of what's coming back to us but at the same time refuses to do anything about it. It is this very attitude that gets us into trouble in the first place, avoidance.
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Karma to a non believer does not exist to him/her but that does not mean karma does not exist. It is only the perception or delusion of the non believer that it does not exist.
An atheist vehemently does not believe in the existence of deities or any form of superior divine/spiritual being but does it mean these being do not exist? Sure the atheist in his/her mind truly believes they do not exist and is confident they don't (maybe) but how can they be sure?
Perhaps your question provokes such similar thoughts with regards to karma and the fact that we cannot disprove the existence of karma, that in itself could be because it really does exist but we just choose to believe our own delusions and wrong perceptions?
It is so easy to turn a blind eye when we tell ourselves or make ourselves believe something does not exist to suit our selfish needs and wants. If there was no karma for one day or one hour even, I know there would be mayhem! But then again, perhaps the world we are living in is mayhem because of such degenerate thoughts already! Hmmm thoughts to ponder on huh!
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I was laughing to myself when I read the title of this post...not because it is funny.
I like how the question was asked. There are so many proofs out there that karma do exist...so how can anyone prove that it doesn't exist? Those who do not believe in karma are in denial!
But truth to be told, not many of us truly believe in karma though we acknowledge its existence. If we do believe 100%, we will all be enlightened by now right? But look where we are!
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I like to think that Karma is in some aspects a science. If you do something, it will happen to you. If you do good, you receive good. If you do bad, you receive bad. In a sense its like maths as well. If you add one or take away one, then you must subtract or add again in order to reach equilibrium. We can use the analogy of a rubber band as well to describe it. It only makes sense, you cannot disprove it. There is no outright evidence that it doesn't exist. And if we examine our daily lives sometimes we can receive instant karma. As soon as you do something bad, something bad happens to you.
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I guess when people demand "proof" of the existence of karma, their idea of credible "proof" is that obtained from scientific experiments and results.
I don't think karma can be "proven" via the scientific methods we have today, as our idea of science is too narrow and limited for something like karma, which was something taught to us by the highest evolved human being... the Buddha.
Moreover, science is for physical /tangible things which we can perceive with our 5 senses (which we know are unreliable) and so many assumptions. Karma is beyond the physical form, and has no assumptions. Science can't even prove or measure the human consciousness yet!
So, if science can't prove karma, is it the fault of science or the subject matter?
Let's not forget that gravity never "existed" until that apple fell on Newton's head. It is just a matter of time that science catches up with what the Buddha taught 2,500 years ago.
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For me it would be easier to prove karma exists , why ? From a very young age, my mother told me - If you don't work hard, don't study; next time you'll end up as a street sweeper !!! This is knowledge on karma in the form of "Mom knows best" - and it worked.
I dare not for a moment wish to prove what mother said could be wrong :-\
Other instances where I can see karma exists :
1) patience = others attracted to you
2) generosity = feeling of wealth
3) miserliness = feeling of poverty
4) taking care of others/ focusing on others = feeling of well being & health
5) laziness = no result
Perhaps others can share how karma exists in a relational way ?
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I was laughing to myself when I read the title of this post...not because it is funny.
I like how the question was asked. There are so many proofs out there that karma do exist...so how can anyone prove that it doesn't exist? Those who do not believe in karma are in denial!
But truth to be told, not many of us truly believe in karma though we acknowledge its existence. If we do believe 100%, we will all be enlightened by now right? But look where we are!
Yes it is funny but not in a joking way.... We do acknowledge its existence as there is no doubt if one looks at the facts. But our karma to making the wrong (easy) choice is so strong that we keep letting samsara "win"...
We have been so programmed by eons of past life habits that we find it hard to "change". For those of us who are fortunate enough to have a teacher... follow and trust in him/her as they can show us the way. Should Biblical i know but I wonder where that story came from.... ;)
To recap again... karma exist whether we choose to believe in it or not, so what do we have to actually bite the bullet and go with the fact that it does exist and do what is right, if not for others yet, at least for ourselves! :)
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I wonder sometimes if we do not all believe in karma, with more acute understanding or less, but prefer the denial existence. If we chose denial, then we just need to align with all the others, more intelligent than us, that have developed all argumentation to re-assure us in our state of denial.
Denial is not without short-term advantages, and I think we should really contemplate on them before we engage in "thinking again" and with intelligence this time.
The advantage of a denial existence:
I can stay longer at the buffet of the Titanic and eat more of that delicious gratin and canapes, have more of that champagne before ending stuck and drawn.
Wow, I am blown away by the advantage if I remain in a mindset that thinks in the short term. And the short term is not the next hour, or the next day, or the next month; no, the shorty term is: this life.
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Karma is what comes around goes around.
Karma does exists. I cant prove that karma does not exist
The people have to pay for their deeds either good or bad. So from our side we should always prefer doing things which do not harms others.
To me, Karma is not what people have done to you, it's what you have done. I think I need some more good karma in my life. Do something good and good things will happen. Do not take revenge is the key !
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It is amusing when atheists say they believe in "what goes around comes around" or "you get what you give" and in the same breath they say "i don't believe in karma". and they get pissy when you tell them that karma applies to everyone regardless of whether they believe in it or not. It is basically the same thing just a different name...
Question 2: "WHY IS IT SO SCARY TO ALLOW OURSELVES TO SHIFT AND RECOGNIZE THE REALITY OF KARMA, WHAT IS MAKING US HIT THE 'PANIC BUTTON' WHEN WE GET CLOSER TO THAT REALIZATION? WHY?"
I'm not really sure what this means but i'm guessing its about why we still do not want to realise what karma really means and act according to the laws of karma? If that is the case, then my thoughts would be: we still think samsara is awesome. Our lives are great as it is. We do not see that we are suffering.
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Karma is the result of our action, what we did and what we received. Karma is not something visible that everyone can see. But not able to see it doesn’t mean it does not exist.
People who does not believe the existence of Karma, is just like they don’t believe the existence of electricity, why? Because electricity is also not something we can see, even though Televisions, computers, washing machines, fridges, etc, etc is already the prove of electricity, this is the fact, and it is a undeniable fact, but if there are people that still insisted that electricity does not exist, what can we do?
When someone that is so insist on denying something, there is only one explanation, fear. It is because of their fear on something, they are afraid of facing it, so they deny, they refuse to face it even though it is already right in front of them. So, if they accept what karma is, they have to step out of their current ‘comfort’ zone. They are afraid of change.
With such action, it is just a pure proof of ignorance and selfishness.
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The more I believe in past & future life, the more I cannot prove that karma does not exist. A lot of time if we only look into one life time, we will question on why we cannot see the effect of a particular cause and start to doubt on Karma. For example, why someone who has been stealing and cheating but still lives in a very rich and comfortable life? Why a person who does not commit any harmful sin but still so poor? Why a child who is innocent but is born retarded? why? why? why?
However, if we know there is past and future life, we would be able to link all these are due to Karma, the law of cause and effect. Karma : Actions + Conditions/potentialities = Effects
The effect may not ripen in this life time, but in future life.
From Lamrim, by developing believing faith in the law of cause and effect, it’s the root of all health and happiness. This is so true! The law of karma is not negative! It is positive as it gives us hope and shows us the way to do something to get to our desirable future! I am thankful for having this chance to learn Buddhism which is full of wisdom!
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When someone that is so insist on denying something, there is only one explanation, fear.
It is because of their fear on something, they are afraid of facing it, so they deny, they refuse to face it even though it is already right in front of them.
So, if they accept what karma is, they have to step out of their current ‘comfort’ zone.
They are afraid of change.
Thanks for your post Carpenter, I just had to repeat it.
I agree with you, when we realize karma, we fear, we fear greatly, and one of the reactions in front of fear is denial, we build up a little imaginary world and we put our mind into it.
And we nurture those people around us that tell us: "there is no karma."
This little imaginary world may also be shared by a very large group of people giving us the impression that this world is the reality on the basis of the fact that many of have our mind in it.
Karma does bring about fear.
In fact, karma must bring about fear.
A healthy fear.
What is the antidote to that fear?
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If we know there is past and future life, we would be able to link all these are due to Karma, the law of cause and effect. Karma : Actions + Conditions/potentialities = Effects
The effect may not ripen in this life time, but in future life.
From Lamrim, by developing believing faith in the law of cause and effect, it’s the root of all health and happiness. This is so true! The law of karma is not negative! It is positive as it gives us hope and shows us the way to do something to get to our desirable future!
The law of karma exist whether or not we believe in it... is entry level of Buddhism, even if we do not understand with great clarity the more complex teachings on karma we must understand that our actions will bear effect and that our current experiences are effects from previous actions.
This pre-requisite is a preliminary to even taking refuge.
Why would one take refuge without an entry level of understanding of karma?
Why would one stop killing and lying?
Why would one renounce ignorance and aim for wisdom?
The realization of karma makes the problems VERY clear to us.
And the solution to karma (the antidote to fear that HR is asking the nature of) is the 3 jewels.
Fear of karma.
Faith in the 3 jewels.
That is the basis for the Buddhist refuge.
So if fear remains, it must be that we have not developed faith in the solution enough.
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To extend further on what Positive Change has just mentioned.
I agree on the solution to overcome fear is having faith, but in order for us to have faith, we need to have dharma first, when our dharma knowledge gain, our faith in Dharma will also increase. Learning Dharma and practicing it is the only way to the exit.
So if fear still remain that cause the denial again, it shows that Dharma did not really go in.
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Karma does bring about fear. In fact, karma must bring about fear. A healthy fear.
What is the antidote to that fear?
I agree with Carpenter, that the antidote to fear is faith and knowledge. We may fear to believe in karma because we assume that only negative things will arise from having such belief. But if we know what are the benefits to believe and act according to the law of karma, we will find that it is a very positive and powerful piece of knowledge to have. Once we truly understand the workings of karma, we can control our rebirths!
I think when people don't want to believe in karma because they think it is "scary", it is because they don't want to change their habits. Actually we should view karma as a roadmap out of samsara. Believing in karma is the basis for believing that if you do good, you will go to heaven; if you do bad, you go to hell.
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You can't prove something does not exist but we can certainly prove that it does.
I quote an logical answer to this from the web:
Yes, you can prove an elephant isn't in your closet, but that's because it's that particular place.
How can you PROVE that striped elephants don't exist?
You'd have to be able to check every place in the world, and every possible elephant.
Even then, it wouldn't be proof, because you may have missed it.
And, of course, we don't know whether striped elephants have ever existed in the past.
Proving that elephants DO exist simply requires finding 1.
You CAN prove that things exist; but you can't PROVE that they don't.
You can have reason to doubt, say, a purple elephant -- since that's just not a color critters like that come in; but it's not proof.
You can prove you have a pen.
Can you prove the pen doesn't think or feel?
Well, no.
But there's no reason to think it does, and much reason to think it doesn't; thus, the reasonable person would reject the belief without some evidence.
I will come back with more later!