dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Namdrol on March 07, 2012, 02:20:04 AM
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This picture shows the wall paiting of a Nyingma center with Dorje Drolo stepping on a monk, the monk is supposed to be Dorje Shugden! Isn't monk a universal symbol of holiness? Even if they think Shugden is evil, shouldn't they just draw Shugden not in a monk's clothes? How twisted it is to depict a monk being stepped on, no matter how noble the reasoning is!!!
Quote of a famous incident: in the 70s or 80s the 16th Karmapa went to an opening of a Nyingma monastery in Nepal. There, they had a statue of Dorje Drolo which had been modified and shown to be stepping on Dorje Shugden. Karmapa was very angry when he saw this. He said, “Who made this? Where did this lineage come from? Show me the monk who did this.” He left the monastery very unhappy.
More than that, the Karmapa predicted then to the Nyingmas at the monastery, “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him" referring of course to Dorje Shugden.
This incident has been written and recorded down by Dagom Rinpoche himself, see the sungbum in the attached pic.
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This picture shows the wall paiting of a Nyingma center with Dorje Drolo stepping on a monk, the monk is supposed to be Dorje Shugden! Isn't monk a universal symbol of holiness? Even if they think Shugden is evil, shouldn't they just draw Shugden not in a monk's clothes? How twisted it is to depict a monk being stepped on, no matter how noble the reasoning is!!!
It is indeed twisted and wrong in all aspects. We as Buddhist should not use such defamatory iconography to put down the holy sangha. It is really downright disrespectful!
If creating a Buddha image/statue purifies body karma and is most meritorious... what happens in situations like this when the depiction is "wrong" or putting down the sangha. Surely the opposite karma is created as it promotes wrong views.
Why do people resort to defamation in order to make a point. Perhaps there is no point to make and thus they just want to have that "shock value". Whatever the case is, there are certainly repercussions to such actions. The Karmapa's prediction is most interesting too! :P
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I have seen a statue stepping on Dorje Shugden while in Nepal. I had missed it until someone highlighted it to me. We were on a sightseeing trip and our itinerary for that day was to visit various centres as the tour guide had convinced us of the beautiful paintings that we would be able to view.
We were shocked, to say the very least! What a bad impression that gave us. If they are against the practice of Dorje Shugden then they should just make sure that they are not depictions of Him anywhere in their own centre.
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I think the picture is pretty hilarious. It's like Manjushri stepping on Manjushri. Or an image of Guru Rinpoche and Tsongkhapa having a tantric battle. It is outright ridiculous and makes no logical sense at all. How can they paint the same being stepping down on another for whatever reason? If not for sectarian reasons, why would they want to put down the only Dharma protector that has promised to protect Gelugpa specifically? Perhaps to show their sectarianism openly?
I find it very interesting that the 16th Karmapa said those things, that he was angry that someone put down Dorje Shugden. This contradicts with the Dalai Lama's account of how Trijang Rinpoche hurriedly cleared his room when the Karmapa came for a visit while he was doing a Dorje Shugden puja. The Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche swapped places before within their incarnation line and are thus extremely close. It is my guess that if a real verification is needed between the 2 Karmapas, it is Trijang Rinpoche that will be able to tell who is the real one.
As we know, Nyigma and Kagyu are very close lineages. They have interchangeable lineage masters as well as transmissions. It would be quite inauspicious that Nyigma drags Kagyu down due to this issue and create inauspicious things for themselves. Many high lamas of the Nyigma tradition has been passing away in rapid succession compared to other lineages, and the latest causality is here (http://tibetanaltar.blogspot.com/2012/03/death-at-byalakuppe.html). I hope that they would just stop and leave Dorje Shugden alone for their own sakes.
But what I like about the prediction was that they will have no choice but to practice Dorje Shugden in the future. If The Karmapa predicted that and he is not even Gelug, that means that Dorje Shugden would be huge in the near future. Very huge…so all of these people who are playing crusader now will regret their actions.
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It is sad to see this Nyingmapa Monastery promoting sectarianism. If you look at the hundreds of old thangkas/statues of Dorje Drolod, he has never been stepping on a monk with a round domed hat. This type of Monastery with their non-authentic illustrations hurt the sentiments of many Gelugs especially Shugden practitioners. People should have the right to pray to what they like.
Should the Baptists paint figures of Jesus stepping on St Assisi? Baptists do not believe in Catholic Saints. But by painting such an image it hurts the sentiments of those who trust St Assisi.
Should Hindus paint images of Krishna stepping on Jesus or a mosque?? Of course not. You don't believe and that is fine. Do not become sectarian and hurt sentiments. Respect.
Mana
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Yes it is bad, but with the ban in place, this is very hard to avoid. People always like to think they are doing the right thing, and are following the Dalai Lama 100%. The Dalai Lama, never told them to do this so we can whine about it, yet we can also see the positives.
Without the ban images such as these wouldn't have existed. Now even more people, especially people against Shugden can be blessed by him, and it can plant imprints in their mind. Even though it is not in the manner we like to see our King, at least in some twisted way his image is out there. Now people who see he is being stepped on will learn about him. They will learn why he is bad, and hopefully someway along the way they will learn the truth, and realize he is a fully enlightened protector. In the best case scenario they will start to practice. In the worst case scenario imprints will be planted in their midstream so they can meet him in a future life. Win, win.
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As Buddhist we should promote tolerance and acceptance of individual beliefs and faith. Why should this Nyingma monastery hang up a wall painting like this? If they are against the practice so be it but don't defamed and ridiculed an enlightened being . It is so disrespectful. This Nyingma monastery should be ashamed of their actions. It reflects on how illogical and senseless they are.
They have collected such heavy negative karma by their actions that in future they will need Dorje Shugden to help them as predicted by the Karmapa.
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I have goolged some more pictures of Dorje Drolo, none of them were depicted as stepping on a monk. See pictures below.
Dorje Drolo is one of the eight manifestations of Guru Rinpoche/Padmasambhava. The deity Dorje Drolo embodies the forces of insight and compassion beyond logic and convention. Invoking in the practitioner the fearlessness and spontaneity of the awakened state, Dorje Drolo transforms hesitancy and clinging into enlightened activity. He rides a pregnant tigress, which signifies the latent power of our intrinsic Buddha Nature. Drolo's energy overcomes distinctions of life and death, representing instead a continual process of giving birth to new circumstances and possibilities. Padmasambhava manifested as Dorje Drolo at numerous pilgrimage places in order to subvert indigenous Tibetan beliefs in demons and malevolent gods, redirecting their powerful energies toward the path of wisdom and compassion.
As we can see, the description of the iconography of Dorje Drolo did not mention the stepping of a monk. So whoever gave the order to paint Dorje Drolo in this Nyingma Monastery in Nepal must be an anti-Shugden practitioner.
They can paint whatever they want, step on Dorje Shugden, Dorje Shugden cannot be suppressed simply by this as Dorje Shugden is Manjushri. Dorje Shugden will surely forgive those behind this, but unfortunately their karma of the ill-intention of being sectarian will catch up on them one day.
(http://www.dharmaware.com/thangka_gallery/new_thangka/dorjedrolo-big.jpg)
(http://www.beezone.com/DorjeDrolo/DorjeDrolo.GIF)
(http://www.exoticindiaart.com/buddha/guru_padmasambhava_as_dorje_drolo_tj86.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-W8DnqzzkDh4/TY_oKzMY2nI/AAAAAAAAAi0/78orpWuwESw/s1600/dorje_drolo_hhgk1-1.jpg)
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How unfortunate that a monastery should go so far as to depict not only a member of the Sangha but a great and enlightened Protector being treated this way. But it really goes to show how much rot the mind can experience when not trained on the right views.
One of the first things that came to my mind is how I don't see practitioners of Dorje Shugden putting down the very people who oppress them. Imagine a painting of Dorje Shugden trampling the oppressors of the practice. Imagine thangkas of Dorje Shugden stepping on Monks and High Lamas who initiate; supported and/or executed the ban. I am so glad that you don't see that. It says a lot about the mind-stream of those who practice Dorje Shugden.
Elsewhere Dorje Shugden is depicted in ancient thangkas together with Guru Rinpoche, Setrap, Vajrayogini and other Buddhas and deities.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54.0;attach=43;image (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54.0;attach=43;image)
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54.0;attach=53;image (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54.0;attach=53;image)
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I have been to the monastery of which Namdrol was talking about where the statue of Dorje Drolo is stepping of a monk with a round dome hat (which should be Dorje Shugden). It is sad to see that this is happening especially in the sangha community which is suppose to be living in harmony and promote buddhist dharma. THey are in fact create schism among themselves. What would the world think when they see that Buddhist are against Buddhist? This is such bad image.
Also this depiction is not real and is created. Just like what Triesa has found out with more pictures of Dorje Drolo where there are no pictures of any monk being stepped on. For someone who is not well versed with Tibetan Buddhism, they will be confused and will think that it is true. Is the Buddhist centre creating confusion?
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It is so sad to know that they modified the statue and created disharmony. As monks, they are putting down the practices of Sanghas of different lineages which contradicts the vows that they hold everyday. Shouldnt it be based on facts that Lord Dorje Shugden IS Manjushri rather than hearsay?
The 16th Karmapa was right to be mad. I would be mad too. We must always respect the faith other people have and never create disharmony. Even in this forum, we do not talk bad against the DL and other lineages.
Stop confusing people with your disharmony. Everyone has their rights... :D
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How ignorant, insensitive and inconsiderate the painter of this thangka that depicts Dorje Drolo stepping on Dorje Shugden. It is downright derogatory and disrespectful to Buddha Dorje Shugden. The Nyingma Monastery that put up the thangka in their temple wall or built a similar representation is not any better. It is an insult to all the Dorje Shugden practitioners!
If the 16th Karmapa had found the depiction inappropriate, should the Nyingma Monastery not remove the thangka quickly? This depiction creates unnecessary wrong views, misunderstanding and disharmony between the Gelug and Nyingma traditions. It does not benefit the general public either. This thangka should be removed or destroyed because it is not educational or serve any purpose.
Who gave the painter the mandate to paint such a thangka? Will this help the Nyingma Tradition to flourish by disrespecting Dorje Shugden? Dorje Shugden is Buddha Manjushri! What heavy negative karma the painter and those who supported the creation of this thangka are creating! How would the Nyingmapas feel if someone else is to paint a thangka depicting Dorje Shugden stepping over Dorje Drolo? If someone does not like Dorje Shugden, it is fine. He can propitiate Dorje Drolo or other protectors. It is bad already if you despise someone. Here the painter is despising the Buddha! The painter is so ignorant! May Dorje Shugden bless your ignorant mind.
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It is definitely sad to see these people insecurities and the need to WIN?
I think the haven't heard of the 8 verses. Definitely not a very Buddhist thing to do... and a self created fake thangka to comfort their insecure minds that Dorje Shugden is subdued by Dorje Drolo. How can 2 Buddha's fight?
Also from what I've learnt, Guru Rinpoche/Padmasambhava is the same mind stream as Atisha and Lama Tsongkhapa... hence... in reality the are all ONE and of the same source manifesting in different times and aspects to suit the different needs of the people at that time... so... if Guru Rinpoche = Tsongkhapa... hence wouldn't that mean Dorje Shugden is the protector for both or rather one since it is the same mind stream. So what is the need to argue and be sectarian for?
Sure sounds more like a power game then spiritual practice.
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People will be people. Everyone is still in samsara, so people will always try to put others down in order to make themselves feel better. Our only salvation is to follow the Dharma and be true to its essence always - which is not to harm others. It is sad that people who are supposed to be in Dharma – and Sangha themselves – often fall into samsara’s trap and even use Dharma as a reason to harm others. Schism is one of the heinous sins and the more people perpetrate it, the more negative karma they will receive themselves. Let us not criticise them because their karma will come back. What we can do is simply provide accurate information about our practice and let people judge for themselves.
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I have goolged some more pictures of Dorje Drolo, none of them were depicted as stepping on a monk. See pictures below.
Yes! Furthermore in Buddha paintings, how they stand, what they hold, what they hold in their hands etc all symbolizes something.
Just like how Vajrayogini’s left toes presses upon Bhairava’s head, bending it backwards to the level of his heart symbolizes that she subdues the ignorance and anger of this mundane or worldly god, as his forehead is the seat of ignorance and his heart the seat of anger.
What does stepping on a monk mean? What does stepping on robes means? What does stepping on a practitioner of the Buddha Dharma mean?
Tsk tsk...
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More paintings of Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden, these need to be exposed because I am sure many practitioners of these Dharma centers that have these offensive paintings are not even aware of it, they have to be informed how sacrilegious it is to have their protector stepping on Manjushri:
Pic 1: Thekchhog Kunzang Chhodon Nunnery - Bhutan, supported by Singapore Dudjom Dharma House: http://singaporedudjomdharmahouse.blogspot.com/2010/05/wall-thangkas.html (http://singaporedudjomdharmahouse.blogspot.com/2010/05/wall-thangkas.html)
Pic 2: This one even has the monk's guts torn out, very disgusting: http://fineartamerica.com/featured/1-dudjoms-dorje-drollo-sergey-noskov.html (http://fineartamerica.com/featured/1-dudjoms-dorje-drollo-sergey-noskov.html)
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Just because a picture is made of Dorje Drollo stepping on Dorje Shugden it does not make it so. Dorje Shugden is an enlightened dharma protector, I am not so sure about Dorje Drollo. I do not know what benefit it is or Dudjom Rinpoche to create pictures of Dorje Drollo stepping on Dorje Shugden, how can can stepping on a monk be spiritual oh my. Dorje Drollo stepping on Dorje Shugden is definitely a new development, Dorje Shugden did not manifest till 350 years ago. Guru Rinpoche and Lama Tsongkhapa is the same mindstream, how can they fight? How can Nyingma go against Gelug and vice versa.
Dudjom Rinpoche created anti shugden chakra and Dorje Drollo stepping on Dorje Shugden
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1195.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1195.0)
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I am very sad and shocked seeing the images of monk be stepped on. In Buddhism, it is about taking refuge in the 3 jewels, and one of them is the Sangha, and now they are stepping on him. :(
I know there are people who do not believe in Dorje Shugden, but that doesn't mean you can and should put him down. Just for example, I don't believe in Jesus, it doesn't mean I should put him down and draw something to step on him. How would Christian feel if they ever see images like that?
Likewise, other religions may not agree on, say, Kuan Yin. Does it mean they should draw images to step on Kuan Yin? How would you feel if you believe in Kuan Yin.
It just make me feel sad, but my belief in Dorje Shugden is never moved...
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How do we know that the monk-figure in these paintings is actually DS and not merely some artistic presentation of a "monk-in-general"? It is not evident to me.
(If a Nyingmapa Protector, in a picture, tramples on a naked body and a monk, it merely reflects the teaching that points between hedonism and puritanism. And that by the way is not any nyingma heresy, but a teaching that can be found in classical sources too.)
Was there a specific mention in those pictures that the monk is DS, or was the image of a "hatted monk" merely used as a paradigm of a monk, or was the artist thinking of just a "monk"? How was it? I do hope we do not start to blame the Nyingmapas for our own lack of art-education.
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When I travelled in Nepal where this art originates from (Dudjom Temple in Bodhanath), they were heavily selling this picture of Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden. Being a foreigner and not Tibetan, they were not suspicious with my questions. But I saw the statue in Dudjom Monastery with my own eyes. It was around three feet in height and clearly stepping on Dorje Shugden with his domed hat. It was created by Dudjom Rinpoche. They also sell pictures of this again stressing Dudjom Rinpoche created this. They had picture taken from original thangkas of Shugden being stepped on as you see on this thread. They proudly declared exactly who was being stepped on. No mistakes here! I have travelled to Nepal over 6 times already and visited this Monastery twice along with other Nyingma Monsteries with Dorje Shugden stepped on by Dorje Drolod. The monks tell me Dorje Drolod (wrathful Guru Rinpoche) is very effective to repel Shugden's evil harm. I obtained a chakra also.
Also Dudjom Rinpoche created anti-Dorje Shugden talism (chakras) to be worn by those afraid of harm from Shugden. Again these chakras were beings old all over Bodha near the stupa, from Dudjom Monastery and a few other Nyingmapa Monasteries. Even a few Tibetan owned stores sold this chakra and proudly told us it is to ward off the harm by Shugden. Many monks were wearing this chakra, when we asked, again they said this is a chakra to ward off harm from Shugden. I was taken aback at the same time amused.
No Tibetan Deity ever steps on a monk. Monks are not represented by being stepped on as it is highly inauspicious. You do not step on sangha in Tibetan iconography as it is highly improper. Name another deity that steps on a monk? Only Dorje Drolod as created by Dudjom Rinpoche and no one else. Google older thangkas of Dorje Drolod or read his original text in Tibetan describing his body, mounts, color and description. It is clear he did not step on Shugden or did not have any monk described as being trampled upon.
It is not that any of us are lacking in art-education, but I am witness with my own eyes to Dudjom Monastery depicting Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden. Their own monks mention this clearly when visiting the monastery.
Gangchen Rinpoche household monks in Nepal also clearly explained Dudjom Monastery created a statue of Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden. And in the Bodha area, pictures of Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden as well as chakras are being sold. Many are buying them and snatching them up.
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As for somebody producing a stupid work, and others repeating it (because of faith in the Lama) I admit it is a possibility.
I nevertheless maintain, that the different Nyingma-schools are largely non-monastic, and for them, a monk can be used as a mere symbol. In that sort of setting, the saffron-robes are not an icon of veneration, but more likely a symbol of "renunciate non-tantric ways" - hence, an extreme to be avoided, and thereby trampled by the Protector in question. Here, monks exist as mere symbols, you see.
But of all the many "alarming" pics here, was the monk really DS or not? (I say not.)
Stop seeing shadows.
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As for somebody producing a stupid work, and others repeating it (because of faith in the Lama) I admit it is a possibility.
I nevertheless maintain, that the different Nyingma-schools are largely non-monastic, and for them, a monk can be used as a mere symbol. In that sort of setting, the saffron-robes are not an icon of veneration, but more likely a symbol of "renunciate non-tantric ways" - hence, an extreme to be avoided, and thereby trampled by the Protector in question. Here, monks exist as mere symbols, you see.
But of all the many "alarming" pics here, was the monk really DS or not? (I say not.)
Stop seeing shadows.
Nyingmas all see Shakyamuni as a monk. They see Shantideva as a monk. They accept the great masters such as Candragomin, Aryadeva, Nagarjuna as pure saffron monks. Penor Rinpoche and Tulshik Rinpoche were very senior lamas of the Nyingma sect and they were pure monks till the end. Google them. They also ordained monks and gave monk vows. To say the Nyingmas see monks as mere symbols is wrong assertion. Nyingmas have both monastics and lay practitioners. They have both special traditons. Nyingmas respect monks and understand monk vows very well. In Penor Rinpoche's monastery in South India, they engage in monk confessions (sojong) monthly just as they do in Sera, Gaden and Drepung.
These pictures are of Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden as this comes from the Dudjom new lineage texts as propagated in Nepal by Dudjom Monastery. This is what they say not what I say.
Before you assert I am seeing shadows, go visit Dudjom Monastery and talk to them yourself as I did. Walk around and ask the stores around Bodha for a picture of Drolod stepping on Shugden or easily purchase a anti-shugden chakra.
No one is seeing shadows.
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It is because of ego and the resulting fear that such depiction is accepted, believed to be effective and sold. Because of beings ignorance and misunderstanding that it is even acceptable for some. This overrides the respect that should be accorded to monks, much more if the being being stepped on is highly propitiated by others. How degenerate are these times!
Lamas that do this are just mirroring what we are. If we have the sense not to do that and show respect then it shows we are slightly better off. If they do not respect us, they best thing to do is for us to respect them and show them we are good human beings. It doesn't hurt us as we have faith and we are not affected. We thrive on adversity become an even better person.
Om Benza Wiki Bitana Soha!
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Nyigmapas originally did not have a monastic system. They were based entirely on ngakpas or lay practitioners. This is the reason why Atisha started the Kadampa tradition which reinstated the monastic tradition in Tibet. So I guess, it is not unusual for them to disrespect the sangha. The current monastic tradition that they have is adopted from the Kadams and not from Guru Rinpoche's time.
At the same time, this imagery is a very clear indication of the degeneration of their lineage. Is it necessary to be so fearful of a "spirit", so insecure that you would have to make so much protection against it? Isn't relying on Guru Rinpoche enough to keep "him" away since Guru Rinpoche is the one who subdued all of the really powerful spirits of ancient Tibet? Are they losing faith in their own lineage that they have to show such blatant insecurity?
But all the same, what thaimonk said makes sense. It is very inauspicious to put down the robes of a monk. Even in other Buddhist traditions, the devotees are taught to respect anyone who dons the robes of the monk, not to the person but out of respect to the robes, which is symbolic of renunciation. Robes of an ordained person are also known as the banner of the arahats. So to desecrate the robes this way is another message that they send out to people: don't respect the sangha.
They think, that they are destroying Dorje Shugden when they are in fact digging their own grave because ordinary lay people would automatically associate robes with monks and to see that imagery is to send them the message to not support the sangha as Dorje Drollo is more powerful than them. So those are in reality chakras that cause them to disrespect the sangha.
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I just arrived in Kathmandu last week. My second visit here. Was a long ride from Delhi though. Was busy travelling and settling in to Kathmandu. Gotta return to Dharamsala next week though as teachings by the Geshe at Tibetan Library starting next week. Can't miss that.
While I am here though, I will visit the Dudjom Monastery in Bodhanath near the huge stupa and see for myself about this statue of Drolod stepping on Shugden. If it still exists, that is good. To have a statue of wrathful Guru Rinpoche (drolod) stepping on Shugden would make everyone feel safer and protected. As Guru Rinpoche is famed for subjugating so many powerful spirits and supernatural forces, he would be the perfect being to tame Shugden and perhaps make Shugden take a oath of no harm.
Perhaps if Dorje Drolod forced Shugden into an oath of not harming, then it would be safe to engage in Shugden practice like Nechung. Once long ago when Nechung swoar an oath, he became cool. He became helpul. He became the right hand man of HHDL.
Shugden should take an oath. Nyingmas are really ahead of the game as I see it.
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I just arrived in Kathmandu last week. My second visit here. Was a long ride from Delhi though. Was busy travelling and settling in to Kathmandu. Gotta return to Dharamsala next week though as teachings by the Geshe at Tibetan Library starting next week. Can't miss that.
While I am here though, I will visit the Dudjom Monastery in Bodhanath near the huge stupa and see for myself about this statue of Drolod stepping on Shugden. If it still exists, that is good. To have a statue of wrathful Guru Rinpoche (drolod) stepping on Shugden would make everyone feel safer and protected. As Guru Rinpoche is famed for subjugating so many powerful spirits and supernatural forces, he would be the perfect being to tame Shugden and perhaps make Shugden take a oath of no harm.
Perhaps if Dorje Drolod forced Shugden into an oath of not harming, then it would be safe to engage in Shugden practice like Nechung. Once long ago when Nechung swoar an oath, he became cool. He became helpul. He became the right hand man of HHDL.
Shugden should take an oath. Nyingmas are really ahead of the game as I see it.
Tenzin ? How many Puja's have already been done to try and subdue Dorje Shugden they didn't work when the great Nyingma masters during the 5th Dalai lama's time tried and greatly renowned masters have been trying since. Do you know of any spirits who can resist Tantric binding or destruction rituals at the hands of accomplished masters is it written in Kangyur or Tengyur that there is a class of spirit who can resist enlightened activity ?
Now if Dorje Shugden was really dangerous and vengeful as some repeat then being able to resist enlightened activity he'd come and crush those who toy with him. But having seen him through the oracles he seems pretty gracious and content to not do such.
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This is hilarious and doesn't make sense at all... Why is DorjeShugden so "special" that people would create a chakra just to destroy him?why would people create a statue just to prove DS is evil or a demon that can besubdued by Dorje Drolo? What does DS symbolize in this thangka or statue? The mostpowerful demon in the world? Or that this "demon" is that so strong that it can’t be “killed” by anyone but Dorje Drolo?
I wouldn't promote to the public if I’m able control a 2-year-old baby, because everybody can easily do that. But if I’m able to subduethe most powerful person of the world, I would make sure the whole world knowsabout it. Hence, does it means Dorje Shugden is the most powerful deity of all lineage?By “subduing” DS or placing him under Dorje Drolo’s feet - would that make Dorje Drolothe most excellent?
If this image of Dorje Drolo is authentic, then Dromo GesheRinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche are wrong. We all know that we need to visualiseourselves as one with the meditation deity when we doing practise ormeditation.
One of Dromo Geshe Rinpoche main practice is Guru Rinpocheand it started since the time of the previous Dromo Geshe Rinpoche. Dromo Rinpoche is alsoone of the world's most well known DS practitioners. Does it mean that when Dromo Rinpochedoes his Guru Rinpoche practise, he needs to visualize himself being steppeddown by himself?
If the gurus of HHDL are wrong too, who has the confidence tosay they are 100% authentic? Unless this person is much more attained than the tutorof HHDL!
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I just arrived in Kathmandu last week. My second visit here. Was a long ride from Delhi though. Was busy travelling and settling in to Kathmandu. Gotta return to Dharamsala next week though as teachings by the Geshe at Tibetan Library starting next week. Can't miss that.
While I am here though, I will visit the Dudjom Monastery in Bodhanath near the huge stupa and see for myself about this statue of Drolod stepping on Shugden. If it still exists, that is good. To have a statue of wrathful Guru Rinpoche (drolod) stepping on Shugden would make everyone feel safer and protected. As Guru Rinpoche is famed for subjugating so many powerful spirits and supernatural forces, he would be the perfect being to tame Shugden and perhaps make Shugden take a oath of no harm.
Perhaps if Dorje Drolod forced Shugden into an oath of not harming, then it would be safe to engage in Shugden practice like Nechung. Once long ago when Nechung swoar an oath, he became cool. He became helpul. He became the right hand man of HHDL.
Shugden should take an oath. Nyingmas are really ahead of the game as I see it.
Hahaha thats a really funny one. If Dorje Drollo could put Dorje Shugden in an oath, don't you think it would have happened 350 years ago? Why do you think he left Dorje Shugden alone for the last 300 years? Wouldn't he be able to bound him with an oath by now? Can enlightened beings bind another enlightened being or suppress another Buddha? I don't think so.
Do we see Yamantaka squashing Manjushri in one of his hands to show his superiority over Buddhas? Does Vajrayogini step on Tara and Avalokitesvara to show her superiority? No. Because Buddhas do not need to control or subjugate another Buddha. So the Dorje Drollo iconography is just plain funny. At the feet of Yamantaka, Chakrasamvara and Vajrayogini, They are not stepping on the beings but those beings offer themselves as cushions to their feet, to depict Dorje Drollo as suppressing or stepping on a hated enemy is not even Buddhist to start with.
Ultimately, the imagery shows that the nyigmas are fearful of the Gelugpas to the point where they need to have such imagery. Its just to appeal to weak minds and to make them feel secure that their lineage is not under threat from the Gelugpas. If they were really confident of their own lineage, do they need to resort to such imagery? It is just a blatant expression of fear.
The nyigmas are not ahead of the game at all if they have to resort to such means for self assurance. Rather, they know they are weak and instead of strengthening themselves, they make their biggest rival look small. Its a rather pointless strategy because its just an illusion rather than something real. Why not prove their superiority by having an equally powerful Dharma protector rather than getting jealous?
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Totally understand the meaning behind of having statue of Dorje Drolo stepping on a monk which supposed to represent Dorje Shugden Himself. Dorje Drolo is a wrathful manifestation of Guru Rinpoche who is famous for His ability to subjugate demons and spirits in order to direct them into the path of Buddhism eg. Nechung.
Whomever in Nyingma Monastery in Nepal order to do this very much for sure he is an Anti Shugden practitioner. Of course they can do so much in order to promote Anti Shugden Campaign or being sectarian but Dorje Shugden will never be suppressed by them by just creating those "Thangkas" & "Statues". If Dorje Shugden really a "demon", why the master of subjugating demons (Lama Mindrolling) during 5th Dalai Lama period failed to do so?
Dorje Shugden will never harm those behind this, but unfortunately it'll generate a negative karma for them because of this behaviour.
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I just arrived in Kathmandu last week. My second visit here. Was a long ride from Delhi though. Was busy travelling and settling in to Kathmandu. Gotta return to Dharamsala next week though as teachings by the Geshe at Tibetan Library starting next week. Can't miss that.
While I am here though, I will visit the Dudjom Monastery in Bodhanath near the huge stupa and see for myself about this statue of Drolod stepping on Shugden. If it still exists, that is good. To have a statue of wrathful Guru Rinpoche (drolod) stepping on Shugden would make everyone feel safer and protected. As Guru Rinpoche is famed for subjugating so many powerful spirits and supernatural forces, he would be the perfect being to tame Shugden and perhaps make Shugden take a oath of no harm.
Perhaps if Dorje Drolod forced Shugden into an oath of not harming, then it would be safe to engage in Shugden practice like Nechung. Once long ago when Nechung swoar an oath, he became cool. He became helpul. He became the right hand man of HHDL.
Shugden should take an oath. Nyingmas are really ahead of the game as I see it.
It is confirmed:
1. Dudjom Monastery which is right outside of Bodhanath stupa's gate on the main street still exists.
2. Dudjom Monastery has a public prayer hall. Within it's hall on view for the public is a statue of Dorje Drolod made of clay and fully painted. Around 3-3.5feet in height.
3. Dorje Drolod is stepping on Dorje Shugden. The monks say that Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche created this statue and built it before his death. It is not a fluke or misinterpretation of Tibetan art. It is definitely made on purpose to have Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden. It is confirmed.
4. Those who worship Drolod in this form will be protected from the harms of Shugden and his negative influence. As a result many go there to worship. I offered a khata also.
5. Right outside the monastery across the street there is a large photo shop. They sell pictures of Dudjom Rinpoche, HHDL, Sakya Trizin and pictures of any size of Drolod stepping on Shugden. Again, it is clearly being sold for those who wish protection from Shugden. Various photo shops and thangka sellers have Drolod stepping on Shugden available. Quite easy to obtain as are the chakras to protect you from Shugden. I purchased a picture.
6. Ex Shugden practitioners are compassionately given the opportunity to purchase this picture and worship to protect from the ill effects of Shugden the spirit.
7. The monks also told me in Parping or Pharphing is another Nyingmapa Monastery next to Tara Chapel and nearby Guru Rinpoche's cave that houses a larger statue of Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden also. It is around 1 or 2 hours by taxi from Bodhanath here in Kathmandu. I haven't visited. But I will visit, if I get the time as I gotta get back to Dharamsala soon. When and if I get to this monastery, I'll do a post here.
This thread is absolutely correct that within the new Nyingmapa tradition headed by Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche, Dorje Drolod the wrathful aspect of Guru Rinpoche is stepping on the evil spirit Dorje Shugden.
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So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?
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It is confirmed:
1. Dudjom Monastery which is right outside of Bodhanath stupa's gate on the main street still exists.
2. Dudjom Monastery has a public prayer hall. Within it's hall on view for the public is a statue of Dorje Drolod made of clay and fully painted. Around 3-3.5feet in height.
3. Dorje Drolod is stepping on Dorje Shugden. The monks say that Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche created this statue and built it before his death. It is not a fluke or misinterpretation of Tibetan art. It is definitely made on purpose to have Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden. It is confirmed.
4. Those who worship Drolod in this form will be protected from the harms of Shugden and his negative influence. As a result many go there to worship. I offered a khata also.
5. Right outside the monastery across the street there is a large photo shop. They sell pictures of Dudjom Rinpoche, HHDL, Sakya Trizin and pictures of any size of Drolod stepping on Shugden. Again, it is clearly being sold for those who wish protection from Shugden. Various photo shops and thangka sellers have Drolod stepping on Shugden available. Quite easy to obtain as are the chakras to protect you from Shugden. I purchased a picture.
6. Ex Shugden practitioners are compassionately given the opportunity to purchase this picture and worship to protect from the ill effects of Shugden the spirit.
7. The monks also told me in Parping or Pharphing is another Nyingmapa Monastery next to Tara Chapel and nearby Guru Rinpoche's cave that houses a larger statue of Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden also. It is around 1 or 2 hours by taxi from Bodhanath here in Kathmandu. I haven't visited. But I will visit, if I get the time as I gotta get back to Dharamsala soon. When and if I get to this monastery, I'll do a post here.
This thread is absolutely correct that within the new Nyingmapa tradition headed by Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche, Dorje Drolod the wrathful aspect of Guru Rinpoche is stepping on the evil spirit Dorje Shugden.
Just because the majority does it out of trend or some religious fervor, does it automatically mean it is right? I don't think so. To me, they can make whatever imagery they want, it is up to them but for them to reap the negative repercussions of such actions would be interesting to see. Also, the fact that they are not harmed by Dorje Shugden shows that Dorje Shugden is not harmful.
It is very laughable that the Nyigmas need protection against Dorje Shugden because you won't be connected to him directly unless you are Gelug, unless the Nyigmas had done something bad towards the Gelug like teaching incorrect teachings that challenges or puts down the Gelug teachings. Even from the yellow book, it is very clear that Dorje Shugden only affects Gelugpas so what has it got to do with Nyigma? What is a Dharma center doing cashing on and promoting people's irrational fears?
Good for you to purchase a symbol of Nyigma's insecurity in their own practice, in their own teachings and in their lineage that they have to resort to finding fault with another lineage to make themselves feel better. I have seen the image in Pharping where Dorje Drollo is stepping on Dorje Shugden but the statue is very cartoonish and is a mockery of Dorje Drollo.
If I am not mistaken, the 16th Karmapa went to that temple and frowned upon that particular statue and said to them that they will need to depend on Dorje Shugden sooner or later. Time will tell if Dudjom Rinpoche will have to take down the statue personally when the time comes.
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Funny looks like the Nyingmas are now sectarian :D
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When I read this post, I felt sad but I also found it contradictory. I felt sad because it depicted Dorje Shugden being stepped on and this shows how intolerant some people can be. When I say that this picture was contradictory was because it showed a holy being stepping on another holy being. In the end, an enlightened mind is an enlightened mind, regardless of who is stepping on who. I humbly request for this image of Dorje Drolo to be escorted out of the place where it is now and be placed in a place where no one can see and feel angry or sad when looking at it. If they feel angry when looking at it, they will create bad karma as they are being angry at a holy being. This image also encourages schism as it is one school of Buddhism stepping on the enlightened Dharma Protector of another.
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Dear All
I found this picture from Facebook most graphic of them all. Not only they depict the monk being stepped on by the tiger but also the claws of the tiger ripping the intestines and other inner organs of the monks out.
I know we've discussed about not harming monks who are symbols of peace and happiness but the minute I looked at this one I just puked literally from my stomach. I really do not understand the basis of having this image in any single way!
change perspective and have ur own monks or your own people being stepped on and your internal organs clawed out, the only feeling is destruction and pain in itself!
such is the day and time of degeneration, monks being killed by Buddhist deities.....
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This is a very informative thread, I've learnt a lot from the "debaters" here. Thank you!
Whilst I am very appalled by what is depicted in the thangka (even if i didn't know about Dorje Shugden, it would've been very disturbing to me to see a monk being stepped on) I see a silver lighting from this incident:
Karmapa was very angry when he saw this. He said, “Who made this? Where did this lineage come from? Show me the monk who did this.” He left the monastery very unhappy.
More than that, the Karmapa predicted then to the Nyingmas at the monastery, “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him" referring of course to Dorje Shugden.
Because of the thangka, the Karmapa pointed out the "malpractice" of the Nyingmas in terms of maintaining the authenticity of their thangkas, as well as predicting the future re the practice of Dorje Shugden. I take this as a strong confirmation that it is just a matter of time that all schools of Buddhism will acknowledge and accept the power of Dorje Shugden and adopt his practice.
However, huge shame on whoever that is still reproducing the thangka even after Karmapa's comments.
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oh my ... i wonder how many more paintings are there out there depicting such disrespectful image of a deity stepping on a monk. Whether the monk in the painting is meant to represent Dorje Shugden or not, the real issue to me is that not everyone will be aware that of its true intention. This was probably a secret joke which was intended to sent out specific messages to specific group of people. To the public's eye with no knowledge whatsoever, this paintings in any monasteries creates a bad image for themselves. A monastery which is full of monks need to be subdued by a Buddhist deity. Isn't that the impression it gives to people? Puzzling that this was not put into consideration.
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So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?
Dudjom Rinpoche has been speaking out against Shugden since the early seventies. It's just what he said didn't take off on it's own.
He is known to dislike Shugden by everyone.
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So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?
Dudjom Rinpoche has been speaking out against Shugden since the early seventies. It's just what he said didn't take off on it's own.
He is known to dislike Shugden by everyone.
True, problem is however if he has directly authorized the making of these images he must have received it must be some sort of terma or it wouldn't be a qualified image. Now from our POV what does this say about Dudjom Himself disrespecting enlightened beings in such a way ?
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I have seen old thangkas of Dorje Drolod, but not stepping on a monk. Here are images of some old thangkas from the olden times. I suspect the monk is a recent addition.
I wonder why the alteration and what blows my mind is still the anti-Shugden chakras. If the great masters and His Holiness himself can't get rid of Dorje Shugden, how can a small chakra work? But again, I am not surprise with the mentality of the community, the same whom today supports the ban blindly and created demand for such a chakra.
1. From Eastern Tibet
Period: 1800 - 1899
Collection of Rubin Museum of Art
2. From Tibet
Period: 1800 - 1899
Collection of Tibet House Museum, New Delhi
3. From Central Tibet
Period: 1700 - 1799
Nyingma and Buddhist Lineages
Collection of Rubin Museum of Art
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So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?
Dudjom Rinpoche has been speaking out against Shugden since the early seventies. It's just what he said didn't take off on it's own.
He is known to dislike Shugden by everyone.
True, problem is however if he has directly authorized the making of these images he must have received it must be some sort of terma or it wouldn't be a qualified image. Now from our POV what does this say about Dudjom Himself disrespecting enlightened beings in such a way ?
It says that Dudjom Rinpoche himself is acting on his own will and creating misunderstanding amongst practitioners. There were no evidence that before this with images depicting Dorje Shugden being stepped on. All pictures shown in this forum thread does not show it too. Must be something created and blindly followed by others.
Why would the 16th Karmapa feel very angry and left the Pharping monastery he is suppose to officiate when he saw Dorje shugden being stepped on. Even the Karmapa does not endorse it! I have been to the monastery in Pharping and the statue is in a glass cabinet, but the lower part of the glass cabinet is covered with a curtain.So, Dorje Shugden being stepped on is not visible unless you go near and looked above the curtain into the feet of the statue. Therefore, for someone who goes to the monastery, without any knowledge of this phenomena, will not notice it. Maybe this is a way they are trying to make amends.
This is an clasic example of creating schiism in the Buddhist community. :(
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So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?
Dudjom Rinpoche has been speaking out against Shugden since the early seventies. It's just what he said didn't take off on it's own.
He is known to dislike Shugden by everyone.
True, problem is however if he has directly authorized the making of these images he must have received it must be some sort of terma or it wouldn't be a qualified image. Now from our POV what does this say about Dudjom Himself disrespecting enlightened beings in such a way ?
It says that Dudjom Rinpoche himself is acting on his own will and creating misunderstanding amongst practitioners. There were no evidence that before this with images depicting Dorje Shugden being stepped on. All pictures shown in this forum thread does not show it too. Must be something created and blindly followed by others.
Why would the 16th Karmapa feel very angry and left the Pharping monastery he is suppose to officiate when he saw Dorje shugden being stepped on. Even the Karmapa does not endorse it! I have been to the monastery in Pharping and the statue is in a glass cabinet, but the lower part of the glass cabinet is covered with a curtain.So, Dorje Shugden being stepped on is not visible unless you go near and looked above the curtain into the feet of the statue. Therefore, for someone who goes to the monastery, without any knowledge of this phenomena, will not notice it. Maybe this is a way they are trying to make amends.
This is an clasic example of creating schiism in the Buddhist community. :(
So its apparent that Dudjom is twisting Dharma and turning a God into a demon so to speak. :'(
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If it's personal preference or like/dislike of a protector, perhaps it is not such a big deal, but this is not the case.
I remember the admin posted this before, so I would like to repost here for everyone's reference:
While the Sixteenth Karmapa (the previous Karmapa) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal he stopped at Urgyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time the Nepalese king and queen were there and came out to greet him with a scarf. When he went into the monastery there was a statue of Guru Dragpo with Dharmapala Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet. The Karmapa stood in the presence of the statue for awhile, then pointed his finger at it and asked “who is the person that said to build this statue? This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t say to build it, this is not one of the deities you can’t rely on.
Although the time is a little early in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” Out of all the abbots and masters present not one came forward to answer. The Karmapa said “remove this now.” Immediately a person with an axe and shovel came and had to remove it. Many lamas present at that time definitely remember, a seventy five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witnessed this event. - from Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche's sungbum
The first four pictures below are some pictures of the opening in 1976. Now, the founder of the monastery above is Kagyu, and the monastery was built under the direction of the 16th Karmapa, following the 'new treasures of Chokgyur Lingpa'. Hence, the Karmapa has a "say" during the opening. What does a Kagyu monastery have against a protector of another lineage? It seems rather odd.
The Nyingma monastery in Pharping, as far as I know, it only started building around 10 years ago and follows the Ripa lineage. I am not sure whether the Dorje Drolo is still stepping on a monk, but I have seen the initial drawings of the statues. I have included 2 drawings with the recent pictures below. If the Karmapa disapproved of the particular form, why is it still being made then (10 years back) and now?
I could be wrong, but perhaps this is just plain politics, especially in Nepal where all schools of Buddhism and monasteries are out there to compete for survival, earning tourist bucks and the support of local community is more important than real Buddhadharma? However, this does not justify the derogatory portrayal of another lineage's protector, definitely un-Buddhist? :-[ I hope the time that Karmapa's prophecised will come soon.
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I think this does not bode well for the Nyingma tradition. How can one of their head Lamas think so negatively about such a powerful emanation? I have seen a statue of Dorje Drolo in Nepal as well and it is definitely Dorje Shugden because the statue I saw had a bloody snow lion along with the monk with the round hat.
This desecration may seemed extremely negative for practitioners of Dorje Shugden now but it will turn around and be the cause for Dorje Shugden to be practiced even by the Nyingmas as prophesied by the Karmapa. I am excited for that to happen as this might be a good way for Dorje Shugden to heal the rift between Nyingmas and Gelugs in the future especially when Dorje Shugden is no longer under the ban. I am excited because they will stop calling Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche a heretic and would finally clear the misconception about Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche sectarian views.
May these statues of Dorje Drolo be the cause for Dorje Shugden to spread among the Nyingmas and heal the sectarian rift between Gelugs and Nyingmas. May it bring mutual understanding and respect while each focus on their own tradition to strive towards enlightenment.
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This is just nonsensical. Just like someone else has said on this thread, how can Dorje Drolo subdue Dorje Shugden when the greatest lamas of today cannot do so? Why doesnt Dudjom Rinpoche himself subdue Dorje Shugden? As a leader of the Nyingma tradition, surely he is powerful enough to subdue a supposed demon from another sect? Why didnt Mindrolling lama back in the time of the 5th Dalai Lama successfully subdue Dorje Shugden when he was supposed to be the best in rituals at that time? Is Guru Rinpoche fighting with Tsongkapa?
This is just complete and utter nonsense. Dudjom Rinpoche of course knows that such anti-shugden chakras and protectors stepping on monks do not work. As to why he is doing it, I do not know, but I hope he has a good reason to do so, as there is no logical basis for it.
Oh by the way, I have in my possession a Dorje Shugden Chakra. What would happen if I put it next to one of these anti-shugden chakras I wonder?
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This picture shows the wall paiting of a Nyingma center with Dorje Drolo stepping on a monk, the monk is supposed to be Dorje Shugden! Isn't monk a universal symbol of holiness? Even if they think Shugden is evil, shouldn't they just draw Shugden not in a monk's clothes? How twisted it is to depict a monk being stepped on, no matter how noble the reasoning is!!!
It is indeed twisted and wrong in all aspects. We as Buddhist should not use such defamatory iconography to put down the holy sangha. It is really downright disrespectful!
If creating a Buddha image/statue purifies body karma and is most meritorious... what happens in situations like this when the depiction is "wrong" or putting down the sangha. Surely the opposite karma is created as it promotes wrong views.
Why do people resort to defamation in order to make a point. Perhaps there is no point to make and thus they just want to have that "shock value". Whatever the case is, there are certainly repercussions to such actions. The Karmapa's prediction is most interesting too! :P
This comes as a shocker to me. I have never seen a thangkha or any sort of painting that actually puts down on a holy Sangha, I have doubts in the truth/genuine in this thangka painting. Tibetan Buddhism especially, has a lot of symbolic meaning behind paintings but i have never come across such iconography of stepping onto a holy Sangha image let alone as holy as Dorje Shugden. This is more like an effort to smear the name of Dorje Shugden in order to make their protector better placed/grander/more powerful in the eyes of their worshipers. Even if Dorje Shugden is considered as a demon/spirits (who I totally believe is a Buddha), a thangkha should not be painted at all as other sects of Tibetan Buddhism practitioners are worshiping Him. This is a sign of disrespect and no wonder 16th Karmapa was so furious when He saw the painting.
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[color=blue]
I think the picture is pretty hilarious. It's like Manjushri stepping on Manjushri. Or an image of Guru Rinpoche and Tsongkhapa having a tantric battle.[/color]
Hi Ensapa, I also think that too, especially when someone tries to use a Guru Rinpoche mantra on us for doing Dorje Shugden practice. I think okay? So Guru Rinpoche likes Buddha Manjushri you guys....
from Ensapa:
"I find it very interesting that the 16th Karmapa said those things, that he was angry that someone put down Dorje Shugden. This contradicts with the Dalai Lama's account of how Trijang Rinpoche hurriedly cleared his room when the Karmapa came for a visit while he was doing a Dorje Shugden puja. The Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche swapped places before within their incarnation line and are thus extremely close. It is my guess that if a real verification is needed between the 2 Karmapas, it is Trijang Rinpoche that will be able to tell who is the real one."
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While I am sure that Trijang Rinpoche does know who the Karmapa is, or whether both are Karmapas, as well as the ultimate nature of mind, it really was supposed to be Shamar Rinpoche's job to find the Karmapa. At any rate, since Karmapas historically announce themselves, we can notice that Thaye Dorje was announcing his Karmapaness from an early age (18 months?) to various high Rinpoches. We could also just go check on them for ourselves. Again, I totally trust Trijang Rinpoche to be a Buddha but I sometimes don't know if Buddhas from the Gelugpa school are supposed to mention who are the Buddhas from the Kagyu school, not because they wouldn't happen to know, but maybe to avoid historical precedent.
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Quoting Ensapa:
"But what I like about the prediction was that they will have no choice but to practice Dorje Shugden in the future. If The Karmapa predicted that and he is not even Gelug, that means that Dorje Shugden would be huge in the near future. Very huge…so all of these people who are playing crusader now will regret their actions."
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That would be tremendously wonderful for all living beings if we could all rely on Dorje Shugden. I am starting to think we are at the beginning of the time when we start to have Dorje Shugden as one of the major Dharma Protectors for various lineages.
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As a religious person, we should not defame iconography in order to put down another Sangha. It is disrespectful and promoting wrong views among practitioners. One should not degrade others belief in such a way. If they do not believe in Dorje Shugden, then be it, they should not even have a painting of him even to begin with. Come to think of it, it is weird and illogical, a Buddha stepping on another Buddha...
I am not surprised at the reaction by the 16th Karmapa upon seeing the painting and no wonder He walked away. It is also very interesting to know of Karmapa's prediction that in future they will all be worshiping Dorje Shugden. I sincerely hope they will repent on this and start cultivating real Buddhism which is not another holy Sangha.
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So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?
Dudjom Rinpoche has been speaking out against Shugden since the early seventies. It's just what he said didn't take off on it's own.
He is known to dislike Shugden by everyone.
True, problem is however if he has directly authorized the making of these images he must have received it must be some sort of terma or it wouldn't be a qualified image. Now from our POV what does this say about Dudjom Himself disrespecting enlightened beings in such a way ?
It says that Dudjom Rinpoche himself is acting on his own will and creating misunderstanding amongst practitioners. There were no evidence that before this with images depicting Dorje Shugden being stepped on. All pictures shown in this forum thread does not show it too. Must be something created and blindly followed by others.
Why would the 16th Karmapa feel very angry and left the Pharping monastery he is suppose to officiate when he saw Dorje shugden being stepped on. Even the Karmapa does not endorse it! I have been to the monastery in Pharping and the statue is in a glass cabinet, but the lower part of the glass cabinet is covered with a curtain.So, Dorje Shugden being stepped on is not visible unless you go near and looked above the curtain into the feet of the statue. Therefore, for someone who goes to the monastery, without any knowledge of this phenomena, will not notice it. Maybe this is a way they are trying to make amends.
This is an clasic example of creating schiism in the Buddhist community. :(
So its apparent that Dudjom is twisting Dharma and turning a God into a demon so to speak. :'(
What happens to all this weird, not so good Rinpoche's?? How come they can get a way with such nonsense and no one says anything??? Why is this even allowed? Has Tibetan Lamas degenerated so badly to this level?
I was wondering... if they are Rinpoches, recognized to be someone holy and pure, then how come they can cause one of the 5 heinous crimes and it's okay?
"The five heinous crimes (mtshams-med lnga) are (a) killing our fathers, (b) mothers, or (c) an arhat (a liberated being), (d) with bad intentions drawing blood from a Buddha, or (e) causing a split in the monastic community. The latter heinous crime refers to repudiating the Buddha's teachings and monastic institution, drawing monastics away from them, and enlisting them in one's own newly founded religion and monastic tradition. It does not refer to leaving a Dharma center or organization – especially because of corruption in the organization or its spiritual teachers – and founding another center that still follows Buddha's teachings. Moreover, the term sangha in this heinous crime refers specifically to the monastic community. It does not refer to "sangha" in the nontraditional usage of the term coined by Western Buddhists as an equivalent of the congregation of a Dharma center or organization."
It's either A) POLITICS (what's new) which is really bad and basically brings the sangha down and this is why in today's modern society, people stop believing in monks and nuns. Hence lesser and lesser people like religion or anything to do with religious community. Too many bad experiences and a scams.
OR
B) A manifestation of enlightened beings to create some kind of dramatic cause for some kind of dramatic result and change to happened?
So all I guess we can say is let's see what His Holiness the 16th Karmapa do when the Dalai Lama retires. Let's not forget this 16th Karmapa that His Holiness recognizes is also the same one that China recognizes and accepts ;)
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So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?
Dudjom Rinpoche has been speaking out against Shugden since the early seventies. It's just what he said didn't take off on it's own.
He is known to dislike Shugden by everyone.
True, problem is however if he has directly authorized the making of these images he must have received it must be some sort of terma or it wouldn't be a qualified image. Now from our POV what does this say about Dudjom Himself disrespecting enlightened beings in such a way ?
It says that Dudjom Rinpoche himself is acting on his own will and creating misunderstanding amongst practitioners. There were no evidence that before this with images depicting Dorje Shugden being stepped on. All pictures shown in this forum thread does not show it too. Must be something created and blindly followed by others.
Why would the 16th Karmapa feel very angry and left the Pharping monastery he is suppose to officiate when he saw Dorje shugden being stepped on. Even the Karmapa does not endorse it! I have been to the monastery in Pharping and the statue is in a glass cabinet, but the lower part of the glass cabinet is covered with a curtain.So, Dorje Shugden being stepped on is not visible unless you go near and looked above the curtain into the feet of the statue. Therefore, for someone who goes to the monastery, without any knowledge of this phenomena, will not notice it. Maybe this is a way they are trying to make amends.
This is an clasic example of creating schiism in the Buddhist community. :(
So its apparent that Dudjom is twisting Dharma and turning a God into a demon so to speak. :'(
What happens to all this weird, not so good Rinpoche's?? How come they can get a way with such nonsense and no one says anything??? Why is this even allowed? Has Tibetan Lamas degenerated so badly to this level?
I was wondering... if they are Rinpoches, recognized to be someone holy and pure, then how come they can cause one of the 5 heinous crimes and it's okay?
"The five heinous crimes (mtshams-med lnga) are (a) killing our fathers, (b) mothers, or (c) an arhat (a liberated being), (d) with bad intentions drawing blood from a Buddha, or (e) causing a split in the monastic community. The latter heinous crime refers to repudiating the Buddha's teachings and monastic institution, drawing monastics away from them, and enlisting them in one's own newly founded religion and monastic tradition. It does not refer to leaving a Dharma center or organization – especially because of corruption in the organization or its spiritual teachers – and founding another center that still follows Buddha's teachings. Moreover, the term sangha in this heinous crime refers specifically to the monastic community. It does not refer to "sangha" in the nontraditional usage of the term coined by Western Buddhists as an equivalent of the congregation of a Dharma center or organization."
It's either A) POLITICS (what's new) which is really bad and basically brings the sangha down and this is why in today's modern society, people stop believing in monks and nuns. Hence lesser and lesser people like religion or anything to do with religious community. Too many bad experiences and a scams.
OR
B) A manifestation of enlightened beings to create some kind of dramatic cause for some kind of dramatic result and change to happened?
So all I guess we can say is let's see what His Holiness the 16th Karmapa do when the Dalai Lama retires. Let's not forget this 16th Karmapa that His Holiness recognizes is also the same one that China recognizes and accepts ;)
Okay, I can see what you are saying, but I guess I assume Dujom Rinpoche to be an emanation of Padmasambava; while in reality Padmasambava and Dorje Shugden are inseparable, as they are both Buddhas, on the other hand, Padmasambava is well known to subdue demons and all kinds of difficult stuff; so in the end, if he can't subdue Shugden, despite a high Nyingma Rinpoche having made amulets etc., then perhaps that would be a sort of proof to the more superstitious people that Dorje Shugden is really a Buddha?
While I do really think that is a logical possibilty, I also think it is one of those times when it is okay to request of enlightened beings that they could remove the statue, so as to give us the meritorious karma of trying to repair a schism.