General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: WisdomBeing on March 05, 2012, 06:19:25 AM

Title: Tibetan lamas compete for recognition
Post by: WisdomBeing on March 05, 2012, 06:19:25 AM
I thought it was interesting that even the Pakistan Financial news covers the Karmapa controversy??

Title: Re: Tibetan lamas compete for recognition
Post by: WisdomBeing on March 05, 2012, 06:21:04 AM
oops.. sorry.. the post went before i could paste in the article:

Tibetan lamas compete for recognition (

MONDAY, 05 MARCH 2012 10:35
NEW DELHI: Thaye Dorje was only 18 months old when, according to his biographers, he began telling people he was the reincarnation of one of Tibetan Buddhism's most influential leaders, the Karmapa Lama.

Now 28, and embarking on a global religious teaching tour, he is one of two young men at the centre of a murky, divisive and seemingly intractable dispute over the Karmapa title.

Other major players in the long-running row include Tibet's spiritual leader the Dalai Lama, China's communist government, India's Supreme Court and a remote monastery that holds relics and treasures valued at up to $1.5 billion.

Among those relics is the "Black Crown" of the Karmapas said to be made from the hair of female deities and a symbol of the Karmapa's status as head of the Karma Kagyu lineage, one of the four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism.

Copyright AFP (Agence France-Presse), 2012
Title: Re: Tibetan lamas compete for recognition
Post by: yontenjamyang on March 09, 2012, 04:32:52 AM
In a divisive world, we need two each of the good ones. Why can't we have 2 Karmapas. They are not competing but we are because we are self cherishing and wants to be "right". Mine is real, yours' not! The same with all that we are doing.
This is the same with the current ongoing ban of Dorje Shugden. Dalai Lama is right, you are wrong. Vice versa.

Just shut up if we don't understand. I am sorry! Do good for others and we have a chance. Ultimately, follow your Guru's advice!

Om Mani Pema Hum!
Title: Re: Tibetan lamas compete for recognition
Post by: sonamdhargey on March 11, 2012, 11:37:05 AM
I Believe both Karmapa are not really bothered with who is the correct one. But their followers want make it a point that thier Karmapa is the real one. I mean who can judge? Being followers of thier Guru, one should practice Guru devotion and why even bother about which is which? That is why people suffer because of what they perceived is right or wrong. Why not just live in peace and be happy.
Title: Re: Tibetan lamas compete for recognition
Post by: DSFriend on March 11, 2012, 01:22:38 PM
Isn't this similar to the times during the Great 5th and Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen where both are said to be of the same calibre but one is more popular than the other which caused jealousy to the point of killing?

For me, the more attained lamas there are in the world, the better for us. Wouldn't this be the case for all of us unless there are other agendas besides obtaining enlightenment?
Title: Re: Tibetan lamas compete for recognition
Post by: triesa on March 11, 2012, 04:23:04 PM
Enlightened beings can manifest in many different forms simultaneously, may be both karmapas are real!

The only problem is that their respective followers are trying to say the one they are following is the correct one, because we always want to be right and look good.

If both karmapas are doing a great job in spreading the dharma, all the better. Perhaps it is time as students of great lamas, to learn to really practice the "dharma" rather than fighting for recognition as then it would another ego trip there.
Title: Re: Tibetan lamas compete for recognition
Post by: vajraD on March 11, 2012, 05:50:25 PM

Well if both the Karmapas are doing great jobs why bother who is the right one. More over if they are enlighten they can manifest in many different forms and different places. I think the reason for the arguments arises because follower don’t want to be seen or said they follow the wrong one.
Title: Re: Tibetan lamas compete for recognition
Post by: brian on March 12, 2012, 11:25:01 AM
I don't think there's any competition really. Well i think as long as they are benefitting people and sentient beings. As far as I am concerned, I believe there can be a few reincarnations from a tulku or high lama. But as I mentioned earlier if they are benefitting sentient beings, I am ok with it and should in fact rejoice for having two high beings benefitting sentient beings out there rather than one not mentioning to all the existing high lamas and tulkus out there already. So to think that they are competitng among themselves, I think not.
Title: Re: Tibetan lamas compete for recognition
Post by: pgdharma on March 12, 2012, 04:11:01 PM
I don't think  they are competing for recognition. Enlightened beings like the Karmapas or tulkus or any highly attained lamas can manifest in many forms and in different places. So here we have two Karmapas doing a great job in spreading the dharma to benefit sentient beings .Are they bothered by what we think? I dont think so.  I agree with some of the comments here that the reason for the arguments of who is the correct Karmapa arises from followers who don't want to be seen or said that they are following the wrong one.
Title: Re: Tibetan lamas compete for recognition
Post by: vajratruth on March 13, 2012, 04:23:20 AM
Here is another example of how political interest contaminates spiritual affairs. It appears that HHDL has recognized Ogyen Trinley over Thaye Dorje, as the Karmapa. In so doing, HHDL has added to the controversy. As to why HHDL has done that could be politically motivated as Ogyen Trinley is also accepted by the Chinese Government as the Karmapa. Was HHDL trying to align himself with the Chinese by recognizing Ogyen Trinley?

It is not known whether Ogyen Trinley practices Dorje Shugden (although being officially accepted by the Chinese, it is unlikely that he will go against the practice which is fast growing in China) but the other enthroned Karmapa, Thaye Dorje has openly spoken against the ban of Dorje Shugden, stating that HHDL has "over-stepped" his authority.

What I personally appreciate is how the 2 Karmapas have not personally bought into the controversy but appears to have gone about their spiritual duties quietly. From the perspective of Dorje Shugden, whichever candidate eventually becomes the single and universally recognized Karmapa, it looks like the practice will continue and grow amongst the Kagyus.
Title: Re: Tibetan lamas compete for recognition
Post by: Dolce Vita on March 14, 2012, 05:30:50 AM
I have not read any materials with regards to the competition of recognition by the lamas themselves. It was their students and lay people who were competing for it, saying mine is real and yours is fake. This shows how narrow minded we are. Most lamas do not really want any title, they have always say their job is to teach dharma, to spread dharma, they are just simple monks like how HHDL always says. It is us who like the idea of recognitions, fame, etc. We tend to forget the real purpose of learning dharma.

Besides, Buddha can manifest into different forms at any one time. For instance, according to the life of Buddha as in this website ( : "Eventually some of these biographies were included in The Three Basket-like Collections. The most famous is Deeds of the Buddha (Sangs-rgyas-kyi spyod-pa zhes-bya-ba’i snyan-ngag chen-po, Skt. Buddhacarita) by the poet Ashvaghosha (rTa-dbyangs), written in the first century CE. Other versions appeared even later in the tantras, such as in the Chakrasamvara (‘ Khor-lo bde-mchog) literature. There, we find the account that, while appearing as Shakyamuni teaching the Sutras on Far-reaching Discriminating Awareness (Sher-phyin mdo, Prajnaparamita Sutras, Perfection of Wisdom Sutras), Buddha simultaneously emanated as Vajradhara and taught the tantras."
It is not unusual that a Buddha can emanate simultaneously.
Title: Re: Tibetan lamas compete for recognition
Post by: Klein on March 15, 2012, 05:02:28 PM
Whether the Karmapa is competing for recognition or not, it's not up to us to judge. If the Karmapa is an Enlightened or highly attained being, whatever he does will bring positive results. So even if Karmapa looks like he's competing for recognition, it's for a higher good.

We just have to be patient and not judge. The truth will prevail by the results later on. Similarly, HH the Dalai Lama is banning the practise of Dorje Shugden after pracitising it for a few life times. This may look contradictory. But if we believe HH to be the emanation of Avalokiteshvara, then the controversy he is creating must be of a higher reason. The end result is always good.