dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mana on February 11, 2012, 09:09:04 PM
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The Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world owe quite alot to Ven Geshe Kelsang. He with a good motivation spent so much to have organized international protests to let the Dalai Lama know the ban is not correct. Geshe-la and his people were very organized, committed and worked tremendously hard to help the world realize the rights of religious practice were removed from Shugden practitioners. Geshe-la recieved so much flack, bad press, accusations and bad reputation for the sake of Shugden practitioners which he did not care being a true Kadampa Geshe like Langri Thangpa. We were all inspired by Geshe-la's guru devotion and genuine hard work to propagate the sacred Buddhadharma all over the world.
We at this website www.dorjeshugden.com (http://www.dorjeshugden.com) sincerely rejoice in Geshe Kelsang's deeds and we offer our prayers for his long life, continued good works and his wishes may be fulfilled. We have always had profound respect for Geshe Kelsang.
Mana
What we are expressing here is short and no way justify the amount of praise Geshe Kelsang deserves. But it is our true feelings and sincere appreciaton for the incomparable master Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
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Yes, Ven Geshe Kelsang really did maintained his loyalty to his guru and continued to spread Dorje Shugden in the west, especially in Europe where his centre is. He did not care of the ban, the discrimination and the accusations because he stayed true to his teachings.
He and all his sangha members have tirelessly promort DS around the world through his books and the yearly Spring Festival in UK does attract heaps and throngs of practitioners and students.
We, DS practitioners, does owe Geshe a lot and we should do more to support his movement so that the ban would be lifted earlier.
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His books are really amazing stuff very contemporary and also presented whereby it is easy reading for the modern people. Hope Geshe-la will live long to spread the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
The many centers all over the world is definitely a thorn in CTA's side, I mean NKT's centers are all over the world, whereas how many countries can CTA set up a diplomatic mission all over the world. Hope NKT does more and more to make CTA more and more uncomfortable!
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Thank you Mana for reminding us to practice gratitude!
Thank you Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for having the compassion to be one of the leading pioneer members heading the movement to lift the ban on Dorje Shugden!
If we ever thought that the work we are doing for Lord Dorje Shugden today is hard, we ought to think again. The commitment, effort, perseverance etc. that Geshe-la and his students had to put into CREATING the awareness, understanding and practice is so much more. It is through their effort that we have the chance to “join in the band wagon” and contribute to the cause of ending the ban against Dorje Shugden.
I agree with Galen that we should be more effective and efficient in adding to the momentum that was created by Geshe-la as an expression of our gratitude. We have very good examples to look up to including the team of www.dorjeshugden.com (http://www.dorjeshugden.com) who skillfully developed and nurtured a resourceful and active website and forum community. Through this internet space, so much information and news about Dorje Shugden is made available to the entire world: complimenting and enhancing the work started by Geshe-la! With accurate information to curb ignorance about Dorje Shugden, our Protector is given the springboard to catapult into many more mind streams. So, we can play our role to leverage the benefit of this platform by posting actively and getting more people engaged with www.dorjeshugden.com (http://www.dorjeshugden.com)
As we are speaking of Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, I would humbly add that there are 2 of Geshe-la's books that are great reads: Heart Jewel (all about our beloved Dorje Shugden!) and Eight Verses of Mind Transformation. These are such well written materials that are thoughtfully structured to ease understanding and the flow of the teachings is precisely expressed making it suitable for beginners. So, do look out for these books when you next drop by a book store!
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I really salute Geshela for his bravery and courage in being one of the very few Lama's who really gave his life in spreading the Dharma and who dares to openly practise what his Guru gave him - Dorje Shugden :)))
I salute also to Geshela's students also and their devotion. The teacher may be great but it is the great devoted students who are like the 1000 arms of the Buddha who helps tirelessly in making the Guru's work spread in to all directions. Well done guys. You are an inspiration to many.
May Geshela's work continues to spread and may the voices of suppression be heard, may the unethical ban on Dorje Shugden be lifted and may there be real peace, harmony and unity in everyone Tibetans and non...for true FREEDOM IS FREEDOM OF CHOICE. And we choose to practise Dorje Shugden :)
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Geshe Kelsang's books/learning programmes are great resources for modern practitioners as they are modern, clear, simple to follow.
Many great masters have written forewards for his books, including Kyabje Ling Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, and the Dalai Lama himself! Kyabje Ling Rinpoche refers to Geshe Kelsang as ‘this most precious Spiritual Guide’ while Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche refers to him as ‘The excellent expounder, the great Spiritual Master Kelsang Gyatso …’. We are fortunate that Geshe Kelsang's passion in promoting the lineage and practice caused the rise of so many Kadampa centres.
I believe Geshe Kelsang's stand in the Dorje Shugden matter is the same as this website, which was clearly written in his letter to the Editor in Chief of The WAshington Times in 2002:
"We are not against the Dalai Lama personally and never have been but we previously simply requested him to stop his ban of Dorje Shugden worship; this was a request for the basic human right of religious freedom. At the same time we also publicly clarified what is the true nature and function of this popular Buddhist deity. However in October 1998 we decided to completely stop being involved in this Shugden issue because we realized that in reality this is a Tibetan political problem and not the problem of Buddhism in general or the NKT."
I do hope his students continue to uphold this stand so that NKT will not suffer more bad press about being against the Dalai Lama.
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While I do respect Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso very much, there are a couple of issues which I wish he would reconsider.
Firstly, I do wish that he would embrace the Tulku system. I just don’t understand how he can reject the tulku system when that means that the NKT would be rejecting the incarnation of his own root Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche. Also, it means that NKT does not recognise the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen which is illogical when NKT’s core is Dorje Shugden. How can they ignore these two critical incarnations? I can understand that he thinks Westerners may not be receptive to incarnations but I’m fine with it and a lot of my friends are. In fact, we’re quite intrigued by the incarnations.
Secondly, I wish the NKT would also recognise the oracular system as it is an amazing opportunity to communicate directly with Dorje Shugden. I don’t understand why Geshe Kelsang Gyatso chose to ignore the role of oracles especially when his own uncle was one. I know they fell out but surely Geshe Kelsang Gyatso can rise above it all.
I remember reading that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso discourages oracles and tulkus because it can be subject to abuse for worldly reasons, especially after Geshela passes on. However, if the tulku and oracle systems have survived over so many centuries, I think they will surely survive the 21st century too.
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While I do respect Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso very much, there are a couple of issues which I wish he would reconsider.
Firstly, I do wish that he would embrace the Tulku system. I just don’t understand how he can reject the tulku system when that means that the NKT would be rejecting the incarnation of his own root Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche. Also, it means that NKT does not recognise the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen which is illogical when NKT’s core is Dorje Shugden. How can they ignore these two critical incarnations? I can understand that he thinks Westerners may not be receptive to incarnations but I’m fine with it and a lot of my friends are. In fact, we’re quite intrigued by the incarnations.
Secondly, I wish the NKT would also recognise the oracular system as it is an amazing opportunity to communicate directly with Dorje Shugden. I don’t understand why Geshe Kelsang Gyatso chose to ignore the role of oracles especially when his own uncle was one. I know they fell out but surely Geshe Kelsang Gyatso can rise above it all.
I remember reading that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso discourages oracles and tulkus because it can be subject to abuse for worldly reasons, especially after Geshela passes on. However, if the tulku and oracle systems have survived over so many centuries, I think they will surely survive the 21st century too.
Geshe-la wants to focus on the essence of Dharma rather then cultral additions like Tulkus and oracles, Just because the NKT doesnt recognise Tulkus within its own it doesnt mean that they disavow the authenticity of recognised Incarnations. Dorje Shugden personally composed Geshe-la's longlife prayer so the relationship is very close but again oracles are not used because of various reasons it doesnt invalidate them, Geshe-la has said he will be reborn among his disciples and practice the very training programes he has set out in his next life will he have a fancy title and make a song and dance about it, I very much doubt it the greatness of a teacher doesnt depend on their title or status but in their ability to convey the message and demonstrate the example. We do things differently because we are not Tibetan Buddhists.
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You can download Geshe Kelsang's latest book, Modern Buddhism, the path of compassion and wisdom free from this link:
http://emodernbuddhism.com/download-free-modern-buddhism-ebooks.html (http://emodernbuddhism.com/download-free-modern-buddhism-ebooks.html)
Enjoy!
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Geshe-la wants to focus on the essence of Dharma rather then cultral additions like Tulkus and oracles, Just because the NKT doesnt recognise Tulkus within its own it doesnt mean that they disavow the authenticity of recognised Incarnations. Dorje Shugden personally composed Geshe-la's longlife prayer so the relationship is very close but again oracles are not used because of various reasons it doesnt invalidate them, Geshe-la has said he will be reborn among his disciples and practice the very training programes he has set out in his next life will he have a fancy title and make a song and dance about it, I very much doubt it the greatness of a teacher doesnt depend on their title or status but in their ability to convey the message and demonstrate the example. We do things differently because we are not Tibetan Buddhists.
1. I like the part which says "Just because NKT doesn't recognize Tulkus within it's own doesn't mean that they disavow the authenticity of recognized incarnations."
This is very good. Just because NKT doesn't recognize in no way makes Tulkus not authentic or not useful. NKT has their way to approach things and it works for them and it does not mean other ways are wrong. So if others wish to recognize, authenticate, trust, believe and follow the tulku system is fine. That is very good because this line of thought recognizes different approaches are necessary for different circumstances. All is fine then.
2. "Dorje Shugden personally composed Geshe-la's long life prayer so the relationship is very close but again oracles are not used because of various reasons it doesnt invalidate them, Geshe-la has said he will be reborn among his disciples and practice the very training programes he has set out in his next life."
Again oracles are not used so it does not invalidate them. That is good. In the past NKT did use oracles otherwise how did they get the long life prayer for Geshe La composed by Shugden. Of course they used oracles. The fact the long life prayer all NKT students recites for Geshe-la's holy long life is something from an oracle in trance of Shugden. If oracles were not valid, NKT would have discarded this long life prayer for Geshe-la. So oracles were useful for NKT at one time. And even now having this wonderful long life prayer used by all NKT for Geshe-la shows the blessings bestowed by having this oracle tradition. NKT may not use oracles now to contact Shugden, but it does not mean others like Shar Gaden and Serpom who rely on oracles are wrong. It is according to circumstances whether we wish to use them or not. Both using and not using is fine.
I like the part that Geshe-la already prepared for his future life saying he will be born among his students. It shows he has gained tantric control of his future incarnations. Rejoice. I think it will be beautiful for him to reincarnate among his own in his own centre again. Then again, if the incarnation returns and it leaks out so and so is Geshe-la's supreme mind incarnation (tulku) inevitable a big fanfare will happen. And this boy will be treated special because it is NKT's holy teacher returning. Everyone will show respect. When Geshe-la returns, he will not resemble other children at all. He will stand out automatically prompting belief so and so is Geshe-la and Geshe Kelsang Tulku is back. When Geshe-la returns as a young child to NKT, then automatically he is a Tulku and will be revered.
Either way, 'officially' recognized or not, this young Geshe-la tulku will not resemble other children. Even without 'official' recognition, when everyone believes this child to be Geshe-la, he will automatically be a tulku (Maybe even an oracle might be consulted to confirm..of course time will tell :) ;)). He will be special and he will stand out. He must. Extraordinary beings have a natural affinity for dharma, dharma learning and understanding faster than others hence they are tulkus. Beings who have powerful seeds from previous lives opening and manifesting to benefit others.
Well let's not talk about Geshe-la's incarnation now so much as it is not auspicious. He is here, alive and well and may he live another 1,000 years turning the wheel for so many. For sure he is an attained being.
Mana
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The western world and the world is very fortunate to have Geshe Kelsang Gyatso to present the Holy Dharma to them in ways that are appropriate and efficient.
In fact, the NKT grew to be more than a Dharma organisation for the Westerners, it went global.
I understand better now the reasons also for which Geshe Kelsang Gyatso does not authorize oracles and tulku systems within NKT.
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While I do respect Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso very much, there are a couple of issues which I wish he would reconsider.
Firstly, I do wish that he would embrace the Tulku system. I just don’t understand how he can reject the tulku system when that means that the NKT would be rejecting the incarnation of his own root Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche. Also, it means that NKT does not recognise the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen which is illogical when NKT’s core is Dorje Shugden. How can they ignore these two critical incarnations? I can understand that he thinks Westerners may not be receptive to incarnations but I’m fine with it and a lot of my friends are. In fact, we’re quite intrigued by the incarnations.
Secondly, I wish the NKT would also recognise the oracular system as it is an amazing opportunity to communicate directly with Dorje Shugden. I don’t understand why Geshe Kelsang Gyatso chose to ignore the role of oracles especially when his own uncle was one. I know they fell out but surely Geshe Kelsang Gyatso can rise above it all.
I remember reading that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso discourages oracles and tulkus because it can be subject to abuse for worldly reasons, especially after Geshela passes on. However, if the tulku and oracle systems have survived over so many centuries, I think they will surely survive the 21st century too.
Geshe-la wants to focus on the essence of Dharma rather then cultral additions like Tulkus and oracles, Just because the NKT doesnt recognise Tulkus within its own it doesnt mean that they disavow the authenticity of recognised Incarnations. Dorje Shugden personally composed Geshe-la's longlife prayer so the relationship is very close but again oracles are not used because of various reasons it doesnt invalidate them, Geshe-la has said he will be reborn among his disciples and practice the very training programes he has set out in his next life will he have a fancy title and make a song and dance about it, I very much doubt it the greatness of a teacher doesnt depend on their title or status but in their ability to convey the message and demonstrate the example. We do things differently because we are not Tibetan Buddhists.
Thank you Zach for the explanation. Yes, Just because NKT does not recognise the Tulku system, it does not mean that it does not exist. And NKT does not discriminate anyone who believe in the Tulku system. I think this should be the Buddhist way of living in harmony with all Buddhists and the world. Difference in thinking does not make one centre better than the other or vice versa.
Thank you Geshe-la for spearheading the movement for the removal of the ban. Let's all support each other!
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Lamas with their skillful means and methods is all I can think of, when the question of why Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso does not propagate Tulkus and oracles, but the fact remains that this skillful Lama teaches a large part of the world of the Pure Dharma of Dorje Shugden.
His books are sold every way and his centres are all over the world. I thank Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for bringing Dorje Shugden to the mind stream of so many and benefitting them with the compassion and protection of the Protector Buddha of our time.
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I think its already been mentioned about Geshe-las preference to focus on the essence of Buddhadharma, but also if you really understand Dharma then you will realise that the tulku system is possible (without Geshe-la having to teach that it is possible).
What I mean is this: reincarnation is an accepted tenet of Buddhism across all the schools. It's also accepted that ordinary people like us cannot control our rebirths. We cannot control our reincarnations because we cannot control the creation of our karma. And we also have not purified our karma. We cannot purify our karma, or control its creation because we cannot control our body, speech and mind.
Now on the other hand, attained beings CAN control their body, speech and mind. Therefore they can purify their karma, and prevent more negative karma from being created. Inferential logic tells you that since attained beings can control their karma, they can therefore control their rebirths. If they can control their rebirths, it means that tulkus can can exist and the tulku system is possible.
Therefore even without Geshe-la having to utter approval of the tulku system, when he teaches about karma and reincarnation, he already recognises its possibility.
And as Zach W said, "Just because the NKT doesnt recognise Tulkus within its own it doesnt mean that they disavow the authenticity of recognised Incarnations."
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We owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for this tireless effort to spread Dorje Shugden in the West and all over the world. Because of his strong devotion to his Guru, he has defied all odds and practiced openly. So many NKT centers sprout out is due to the efforts of Geshe-la.
I wish Geshe-la to have a strong, healthy body and for his works to continue and spread to benefit all sentient beings.
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When i was in my teens, i overheard some people in our dharma community commenting that a Geshela has been ex-communicated by his monastery. That sparked an interest in me and seeked to find out more about him. I was saddened to hear such a news; which monastery would ask a geshela to leave??? I followed geshela's teaching wherever i could stumble upon and through the years bought more and more of his books. The contents are so structured and precise. Afew years ago, i saved enough to travel to UK to visit geshela's centre and was amazed at the organisation he has established in a foreign land...and it dawned on me that geshela never left sera; he brought sera to a foreign land . A classic example that if you have the merits, wherever you go, you bring the merits with you and you can continue with your spiritual journey.
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There's so much controversies and criticisms towards Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. Honestly, tell me how many illustrious masters have been free of controversies and criticisms?
As far as I'm concern, this old Geshe has accomplished so much in his lifetime that it'll take MANY lifetimes for me to even accomplish a fraction of what he has done. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not my Guru but I respect him very much. His books has been tremendous help as they are structured and presented well.
His great devotion to the path and compassion for all is clearly shown through this courage to break through cultural and language barriers! May Geshe-la live long and his students continue to uphold and spread his teachings far and wide.
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i like Geshe kelsang Gyatso books and respect him very much. Some of my friends are students of Geshe-la, sometime they will fly to join the teaching or retreat, and they never miss the teaching when Geshe-la come to give a teaching in their country.
I believe that the high lamas are play in different roles and parts and Geshe-la is in the part of DS practitional who has lot of students follow..
May Geshe-la have a long life and good health, turn the wheel of Dharma until the ban lifted.
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i like Geshe kelsang Gyatso books and respect him very much. Some of my friends are students of Geshe-la, sometime they will fly to join the teaching or retreat, and they never miss the teaching when Geshe-la come to give a teaching in their country.
I believe that the high lamas are play in different roles and parts and Geshe-la is in the part of DS practitional who has lot of students follow..
May Geshe-la have a long life and good health, turn the wheel of Dharma until the ban lifted.
Same here Ratanasutra, I like Geshe-la's books very much especially Joyful Path of Good Fortune. I find that Geshe-la has a very structured way of explaining Dharma to people in the West and those in countries where there is no mass Dharma knowledge. This is the unique skill of Geshe-la.
And yes, Geshe-la played a very large part in promoting DS practice openly and gather followers of Tibetan lineage outside of Tibet and Tibetan community. A very great deed by a master of Dharma indeed.
I pay my highest respect to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and ALL the high lamas of DS practice.
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Ven Gehse Kelsang Gyatso receive the teaching from his root Guru, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Geshe-la believes that the practice of Lord Shugden should continue and to be practice by anyone who wish to do so.
It is an independent Western Buddhist organization, the Dalai Lama has no authority in terms of how the NKT is organized and what practice are taught.
Geshe-la said at an NKT Festival in 1995 that the Gelug tradition is in a state of “serious degeneration.” In explaining this, Geshe Kelsang said that if the Dalai Lama succeeds in destroying the practice of Dorje Shugden, the entire Gelug tradition itself will be destroyed.
If the practice of Lord Shugden is harmful then it follows that Je Pabongkha was not an authentic BUddhist master and if he was not then there is no doubt that his heart decibels, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche (the Senior and Junior Tutor of HH the14th Dalai Lama) were also not authentic. These 3 high Lamas are the most important Gelupa Lamas of the recent times. If these three are not pure teachers then there is no doubt that the entire practice of Gelug Tradition is invalid. This is the main issue that need to clarification.
Geshe-La continue the lineage that pass on from his Guru and protected it well.
Gesha-La hard work inspired many and we pray for his many many long life to continue his great work not until the ban lifted but more people take up this great holy practice for Lord Shugden.
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Geshe-la said at an NKT Festival in 1995 that the Gelug tradition is in a state of “serious degeneration.” In explaining this, Geshe Kelsang said that if the Dalai Lama succeeds in destroying the practice of Dorje Shugden, the entire Gelug tradition itself will be destroyed.
1. The Gelug Teachings started 600 years ago. Dhogyal began his appearance 350 years ago. It doesn't tally. The timing is off. When Tsongkapa was around, there was not Dhogyal.
2. How can a entire sect be based on the existence of one protector or rather Shugden. Does that not make Gelug sect very flimsy. After all Nalanda, Tsurphu, Tashi lunpo, Ganden, Sera, Depung are all not defined what dharma protector they practice. And the removal of a dharma protector cannot be the end of a lineage. So within the Gelug it's whether you practice Shugden or not that makes or breaks a whole lineage? C'mon, that does not sound right at all. The basis of Gelug is Shugden? The basis of what makes you a real Gelug is Shugden? What about all the high lamas and Gaden Tripas who were existent BEFORE Shugden? Are they not true Gelugs because Shugden didn't exist and they didn't practice what did not exist??? How can such a vast and profound lineage such as Gelug founded by Manjunatha Tsongkapa be dependent on ONE SINGLE DEITY? Aren't we overemphasizing this so called protector Shugden?
3. Study the 17 volumes of Tsongkapa's teachings, realizing the Middle View, Graduated Path of Tantra, Tsongkapa's exposition on Words of Eloquence, Yamanteka, Chakrasmvara and Guhyasamaja's practices should define you as a truly Gelugpa. Not the worship or existence of Dhogyal (Shugden). Dhogyal didn't even exist during the time of Tsongkapa.
4. Tsongkapa assigned the practice of the dharma not focussed on a dharma protector. Although Kalarupa was assigned by Tsongkapa as the main protector of the lineage, he did not write extensively about Kalarupa showing us it is not important to focus on protectors especially if they are not enlightened.
5. This statement by Geshe Kelsang is too sweeping and too extreme. Too illogical. The degeneration within Gelug is because of worshipping a worldly spirit called Dhogyal. Exactly what HHDL is kindly telling us.
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1. The Gelug Teachings started 600 years ago. Dhogyal began his appearance 350 years ago. It doesn't tally. The timing is off. When Tsongkapa was around, there was not Dhogyal.
Sorry, TG but I don't see your point with this comment.
2. How can a entire sect be based on the existence of one protector or rather Shugden. Does that not make Gelug sect very flimsy. After all Nalanda, Tsurphu, Tashi lunpo, Ganden, Sera, Depung are all not defined what dharma protector they practice. And the removal of a dharma protector cannot be the end of a lineage. So within the Gelug it's whether you practice Shugden or not that makes or breaks a whole lineage? C'mon, that does not sound right at all. The basis of Gelug is Shugden? The basis of what makes you a real Gelug is Shugden? What about all the high lamas and Gaden Tripas who were existent BEFORE Shugden? Are they not true Gelugs because Shugden didn't exist and they didn't practice what did not exist??? How can such a vast and profound lineage such as Gelug founded by Manjunatha Tsongkapa be dependent on ONE SINGLE DEITY? Aren't we overemphasizing this so called protector Shugden?
The degenerescence of the Gelug sect does not depend upon an Enlightened Protector, you are right, it depends upon the practitionners, they are the one who will create causes for the lineage to continue and the Gelug school to grow or to degenerate.
They will create the merits or the demerits...
For the practitioners, it is therefore essential to follow the Guru's instructions, have faith in the Guru, take refuge in the 3 jewels, practice the Lojong, the 50 stanzas, the lamrim, abide by their vows and practice the other teachings received from the Guru. For some Gelug it means: to continue the practice and the reliance upon Dorje Shugden. For others it may mean something else, but what is important is to practice and have faith in the Guru(s), this is what will make or break the Gelug school (or any school for that matter, even worldly sets of teachings). Without a clean samaya, faith and pure and sincere practice, no Protector can help because the karma/merit is not in place and the mindset of the practitioner is not aligned with BODHICITTA!
3. Study the 17 volumes of Tsongkapa's teachings, realizing the Middle View, Graduated Path of Tantra, Tsongkapa's exposition on Words of Eloquence, Yamanteka, Chakrasmvara and Guhyasamaja's practices should define you as a truly Gelugpa. Not the worship or existence of Dhogyal (Shugden). Dhogyal didn't even exist during the time of Tsongkapa.
I agree with what you say, but I'll add this: what does Dorje Shugden protects and propitiate? This:
"the 17 volumes of Tsongkapa's teachings, realizing the Middle View, Graduated Path of Tantra, Tsongkapa's exposition on Words of Eloquence, Yamanteka, Chakrasmvara and Guhyasamaja's practices"
4. Tsongkapa assigned the practice of the dharma not focussed on a dharma protector. Although Kalarupa was assigned by Tsongkapa as the main protector of the lineage, he did not write extensively about Kalarupa showing us it is not important to focus on protectors especially if they are not enlightened.
Times have changed, and unfortunately human beings of this day and time do not have the same karma as those of the time of Lama Tsongkhapa (if they did they would have been "there"). Different approaches are needed suitable to today's practitionner's karma and minds. Simple.
Again, a Protector cannot be a Protector if there is nothing to protect. What is to be protected: the practice of the Dharma, so the focus REMAINS as in the times of lama Tsongkhapa, the focus HAS NOT SHIFTED!
Dorje Shugden being a Buddha, He is a valid object of refuge in its own right too, as is ANY Buddha. The difference between other Buddhas and Dorje Shugden is our affinity, our contemporaries have AFFINITY with the Buddha Dorje Shugden, or else they would not be out contemporaries. Simple again...
5. This statement by Geshe Kelsang is too sweeping and too extreme. Too illogical. The degeneration within Gelug is because of worshipping a worldly spirit called Dhogyal. Exactly what HHDL is kindly telling us.
ditto comment (2)
Thanks and cheers TG :)
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Geshe-la said at an NKT Festival in 1995 that the Gelug tradition is in a state of “serious degeneration.” In explaining this, Geshe Kelsang said that if the Dalai Lama succeeds in destroying the practice of Dorje Shugden, the entire Gelug tradition itself will be destroyed.
1. The Gelug Teachings started 600 years ago. Dhogyal began his appearance 350 years ago. It doesn't tally. The timing is off. When Tsongkapa was around, there was not Dhogyal.
2. How can a entire sect be based on the existence of one protector or rather Shugden. Does that not make Gelug sect very flimsy. After all Nalanda, Tsurphu, Tashi lunpo, Ganden, Sera, Depung are all not defined what dharma protector they practice. And the removal of a dharma protector cannot be the end of a lineage. So within the Gelug it's whether you practice Shugden or not that makes or breaks a whole lineage? C'mon, that does not sound right at all. The basis of Gelug is Shugden? The basis of what makes you a real Gelug is Shugden? What about all the high lamas and Gaden Tripas who were existent BEFORE Shugden? Are they not true Gelugs because Shugden didn't exist and they didn't practice what did not exist??? How can such a vast and profound lineage such as Gelug founded by Manjunatha Tsongkapa be dependent on ONE SINGLE DEITY? Aren't we overemphasizing this so called protector Shugden?
3. Study the 17 volumes of Tsongkapa's teachings, realizing the Middle View, Graduated Path of Tantra, Tsongkapa's exposition on Words of Eloquence, Yamanteka, Chakrasmvara and Guhyasamaja's practices should define you as a truly Gelugpa. Not the worship or existence of Dhogyal (Shugden). Dhogyal didn't even exist during the time of Tsongkapa.
4. Tsongkapa assigned the practice of the dharma not focussed on a dharma protector. Although Kalarupa was assigned by Tsongkapa as the main protector of the lineage, he did not write extensively about Kalarupa showing us it is not important to focus on protectors especially if they are not enlightened.
5. This statement by Geshe Kelsang is too sweeping and too extreme. Too illogical. The degeneration within Gelug is because of worshipping a worldly spirit called Dhogyal. Exactly what HHDL is kindly telling us.
I like how you completely ignored the actual issue.
"If the practice of Lord Shugden is harmful then it follows that Je Pabongkha was not an authentic BUddhist master and if he was not then there is no doubt that his heart decibels, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche (the Senior and Junior Tutor of HH the14th Dalai Lama) were also not authentic. These 3 high Lamas are the most important Gelupa Lamas of the recent times. If these three are not pure teachers then there is no doubt that the entire practice of Gelug Tradition is invalid. This is the main issue that need to clarification."
You cannot receive blessings of Je Tsongkhapas lineage if the lineage masters haven't even kept the refuge vows (not to worship spirits) as the Refuge vows are the foundation of all other vows and vows are the foundation of all accomplishment. You make requests via the lineage masters each day as Tantric practitioners to receive blessings which help us accomplish the stages of the path now if Ling Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabonkha Rinpoche and all the other Gelugpa's who practiced Shugden are on the Tantric suplication prayers then to subscribe to the Dalai lama's mountain of absurd consequences is tantamount to contradicting all Dharma reasoning.
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Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is one of the greatest lama that has persevered in serving and spreading DS practice in the world when the ban was so intense.
Without His effort together with the other DS warriors, most of us would not have been able to be blessed by DS, and to them I'm truly grateful.
This shows that DS is definitely not an evil spirit. If DS is, DS practice would not have grown to where He is today and majority of us wouldn't have the great honour in knowing and be blessed Him. Giving us a chance and helping hand in this wide sea of samsara!