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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: Vajraprotector on January 17, 2012, 11:31:26 PM
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I have heard a comment from a friend who studied zen that the 6 realms are not to be taken in its literal context but should be interpreted in a figurative manner.
Baizhang Huaihai, a Chinese Zen master said during the Tang Dynasty:
Q: Does hell exist or not?
A: One can say that there really is a hell, and one can also say that there really is no hell.
Q: What reason is there to say that hell both exists and does not exist?
A: All evil karma is created by the mind, and, thus, hell may be held to exist. However, if the mind is without defilement and void of self-nature, then hell may be held not to exist.
What do you think? Do you think it is easier for modern people to believe that there are the 6 realms, or easier for them to relate that to a mental state?
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Yes, i have heard that theory before - not Buddhist though - that there really is no heaven or hell.. and it's all metaphorical. I'm pretty much in two minds about it. If there is no hell, why do the Masters say they have visited hell and even describe all the awful things that happen to us there. The Lamrim is very descriptive! Is it just a threat so that we behave ourselves? Or is it truth? What is truth anyway. I guess we won't know until we gain enlightenment and then we can really know what is truth and reality. If we can get enlightened, we don't have to worry about hell anyway, except saving others from it. In the meantime, i am trying not to get into a boiling pot of oil in my next life.. sheesh.
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The zen master is correct, showing his mastery of Nagarjuna's middle way philosophy which basically asserts that things neither exist nor non exist. What this means is that we can't say that something is real absolutely. Neither can we say they are not real absolutely. It all depends on our karma and hence ultimately our mind.
If someone is trapped in a house on fire and cannot get out, wouldn't that be like the burning hell described in the lamrim for the person?
Prisoners subjected to torture when rescued will swear they went through hell and back.
For these people, hell is real and can be experienced within those environment or situation.
The basis for having such experiences is of course due to their negative karma ripening. Hence if we have purified them, we will not have such experiences just like poison which gives us nausea n pain is a delightful eating experience to a peacock.
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That is to say it exist because of our mind, our karma.
In the Lamrim it say this hell is this number of yojanas (5 to 8 miles) below this place and that hell is these number of yojanas below that place. Take it that way it means it literally exists. It will be interesting if someone dig 100 miles into the earth at the right place and see if hell exist.
The easiest way to prove hell exist is by conjecture and that is since the 6 realms include humans and animals realms and since these realms exist then the other realms must exist.
It is clear that all the 6 realms itself also exist in the human realms in sort of a sub realms. We have "gods" - royalty, the rich and powerful, demi gods - those above average who are jealous of the "gods", humans - who have the 3 poisons, , animals - human who have strong lust for food and sex, hungry ghost - humans who have great attachment and are never satisfied, and hell being - humans who have strong anger. Then mix this all up and we can have all 6 realms in a single person.
So to me it does not matter if hell exist physically. Most important is that it exist in our mind. And upon our death, if our mind have anger, then we remain in that "hell" for a very long time.
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The 6 realms do exist and it exists based upon our own actions and motivations. Each moment we are angry, we create another cause towards the realisation of taking rebirth in hellish places or hell itself. However, hell is not a place that exist to punish us for our misdeeds or anger. It is the repercussions of our actions that make hell exist. In other words, hell or any of the other states exists based upon whether we choose to let the specific delusion run our lives or not. It is all in our hands.
According to the Buddhist tradition, the ideal realm to take rebirth is not in the powerful realm of the demi-gods or gods but the human realm because gross pleasure and sufferings are in fairly equal measure that would make it ideal for spiritual awakening. There is more to it than just taking rebirth as a human of course. Hence, we collect merit to always have the state of mind that is sensitive to the truth of Dharma and to have all the physical conditions necessary to practice.
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I have heard a comment from a friend who studied zen that the 6 realms are not to be taken in its literal context but should be interpreted in a figurative manner.
Baizhang Huaihai, a Chinese Zen master said during the Tang Dynasty:
Q: Does hell exist or not?
A: One can say that there really is a hell, and one can also say that there really is no hell.
Q: What reason is there to say that hell both exists and does not exist?
A: All evil karma is created by the mind, and, thus, hell may be held to exist. However, if the mind is without defilement and void of self-nature, then hell may be held not to exist.
What do you think? Do you think it is easier for modern people to believe that there are the 6 realms, or easier for them to relate that to a mental state?
I do like the reply from Khedrup Gyatso very much, it is clear and I stand by it.
I would like to add this:
"6" REALMS?
I say there are more than 6 realms, there are as many realms as there are sentient beings.
These realms can be categorized conceptually within the 6 realms and their subdivisions.
VISA TO A REALM "PLACE"
Realms are not "places" that we go to like we travel from one country to another, and there is a part of simplification in their description. Not to say that the description is not accurate, not at all, but it is made to make a very complex reality understandable.
Yet it would be foolish to start a bias thinking validating the thought: "oh, hell does not exist, it is only in our mind".
If it is a projection of our mind, well... it does exist!
But as it is a projection of my mind, it may cease to exist when I get rid of the causes for me to project such a horrible experience.
Example: We can be in the same place and have categorically opposed experiences. Such as: I experience chili as something relevant to pain, and someone else as something relevant to pleasure; or, I experience stilettos as something relevant to pain, and someone else as something relevant to pleasure. (see image below)
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Q: What reason is there to say that hell both exists and does not exist?
A: All evil karma is created by the mind, and, thus, hell may be held to exist. However, if the mind is without defilement and void of self-nature, then hell may be held not to exist.
Does this mean that, whether hell exists or not is relative to the person and his karma. E.g. if the person does not have the karma to experience hell, then does hell exist to the person?
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If we think of samsara as an illusion or a dream, it's easier to visualise the existence of the six realms. When we dream, it is so real. But when we wake up, we realise it's just a dream. As long as we do not wake up from samsara (i.e. become enlightened), we will go on "dreaming". To those of us in samsara, our experiences are very real unless we have the dharma which teach us the truth.
I have read of people called "Delog" whose consciousness can journey to other realms of experience. One such person was Dawa Drolma, a woman renowned as a Delog, who journeyed with White Tara to the pure realms of Padmasambhava, Avalokiteshvara and Tara as well as the six impure realms of Being and later described the contrast between existence in these realms. In the hell realms she saw beings she knew in the past. She recounted scenes in the hell realm of bodhisattvas, lamas and nuns who actually came to take their followers out. For example, in one scene, a lama named Yengmed Dorje from Nyagrong, came bearing a prayer wheel and a mala with a group of five of his students. He intoned a prayer and chanted "Om mani padme hung hri" and led about a thousand beings out of the eighteen states of hell along a pathway of white light. These were beings who had a positive or negative connection to him.
Another story I heard recently was about the Master Hsuan Hua who travelled to the hell realm to rescue two students who accidentally got trapped there while meditating.
So, are the six realms real or imagined? Samsara and Nirvana are like the two sides of a coin. Physically, you may be in Samsara, but your mind can be in Nirvana.
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Q: What reason is there to say that hell both exists and does not exist?
A: All evil karma is created by the mind, and, thus, hell may be held to exist. However, if the mind is without defilement and void of self-nature, then hell may be held not to exist.
Does this mean that, whether hell exists or not is relative to the person and his karma. E.g. if the person does not have the karma to experience hell, then does hell exist to the person?
You and I can eat the same cake.
You enjoy it and it lifts your mind up for a while.
But I am allergic to peanuts, and as there was peanuts in the cake I die there painfully.
We ate the same thing, yet our experiences were opposite.
If my karma was much worse, I might not even be near you and end up in a place where suffering is constant, without relief, excruciating, feeling like it'd never end!
This would be hell, and it comes from me, not AT me, because it comes from my karma.
Therefore it is not a place that "I" end up "into", it is a place I create alone or with the collective karma of others and that I am part of.
If I have no karma to experience hell, then I won't experience it and it won't exist for me, yet it does exist for others.
Now, food for thoughts:
"Hell" can also be a rebirth in a powerful, healthy, handsome, spoiling and wealthy family too.
So do realize the practitioners of the medium scope.
Maybe "hell" is not a place, maybe it is samsara all-together!
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All sentient beings have accumulated countless positive and negative karma. When the right causes and conditions gather, these karmas will ripen into the experience that sentient beings encounter moment to moment in samsara. The realm of existence that sentient beings are born into is part of this experience that had manifested. These realms of existence are mental states not an actual physical place. Due to the obscuration of their minds, sentient beings are deceived into believing that their realm of existence is real and permanent! In actual fact, samsara is like an illusion or a dream like what Midakpa had said. When sentient beings have completely purified their karmas and free their minds of delusions, they become fully enlightened. And then these 6 realms of existence will cease to exist. The 6 realms cease to exist because the causes and conditions that had gathered previously for their existence had ceased to exist.
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These realms of existence are mental states not an actual physical place.
Realms are actual physical spaces also (except the formless realm), even if they depend upon the projections from the energies of our karmas.
They are real physical places that are inseparable with those experiencing them.
If I have any doubt that my realm is an actual physical space, I just need to prick my finger with a needle to experience the physical reality of my realm... Ayooohhh :'(
So a realm experienced by a sentient being is both a "projection" and a "reality".
It is both, and neither one nor two (ONE as opposed to TWO -the place and the "experiencer" seen as separated).
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This is indeed very interesting read. I agree with all points shared here and I believe it is not a question of who is right or who is wrong. I believe both train of thoughts are correct. In that, "hell" could be perceived as that within someone's life who runs almost paralleled with another. In that scenario, hell exist for one but not the other. Who is to say either is wrong?
It depends largely or wholly I should say, on someone's karma. Everything derives from a person's karma anyways, so why not the existence of such "intangible" states for some and "tangible" for others.
Hence to end, Hell DOES exist and Hell also DOES NOT exist. It is whether we choose to make it exist or not! :)
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"What do you think? Do you think it is easier for modern people to believe that there are the 6 realms, or easier for them to relate that to a mental state?"
I believe that either way of thinking is fine as long as it motivates them to practise the dharma or in other words, transform their mind towards compassion. For example, some people don't believe that spirits exist because they have never seen them or experienced them. Some people believe that spirits exist and the knowledge doesn't help them become better people in anyway.
Because of our self deluded minds, we don't do much with our knowledge unless we see the importance or need to do something with it. Otherwise, it just becomes a matter of intellectual discussion.
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I agree with Klein that, whether we see the six realms as really existing or as just states of mind, what matters is how it motivates us to practice the Dharma and transform. I, for one, find the Hell Realm and the Hungry Ghost Realm, as are presented in the Lamrim, so very powerful in making me immediately fear these realms with such a deadlyf ear as to prompt me to want to do something about myself immediately! Yes, I believe meditating on the sufferings of the lower realms as they are presented in the Lamrim is the best way of motivating one towards serious Dharma practice.
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It is translated as the"six states of samsara"The six realms are God realm,Demi God realm,human realm,animal realm,hungry ghost realm and hell.
The six realms are an allegrorical description of conditional existence or samsara,into which beings are reborn.
The nature of one'sexistence is determined by karma.Certainly some realms seems more desirable than others.Heaven sounds preferable to hell,but all are dukkha meaning they are temporary and imperfect.
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As a Buddhist whether there's a existence of 6 Realms or not it really doesn't matter or does it? Why would people worry about after life whereby we can actually make good use of our life towards dharma? Why do we worry if we were to burn over and over again if we are practicing dharma? Why do we have to concern if we have to walk through a field of broken glass if we are practicing dharma?
And what is wrong with being nice, compassion, generous, helpful, joyful, thoughtful and kind towards another person. I think one should inject such qualities in our life and it really does not matter if there's 6 Realms or not.
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In "Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand", Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche is so precise about the location of the hot hells: "The Hell of Continual Resurrection is thirty-two thousand yojanas under Bodhgaya in India. The other hot hells are below this hell, with four thousand yojanas between each of them. All the ground and all the mountains in these hells are composed entirely of red-hot, intense burning iron; the ground, like that in the human realms, is not at all flat, not at all like the palm of your hand." (Day 11, p. 325) (N.B. 1 yojana is about 15 miles long)
Can Pabongka Rinpoche be wrong?
Theravada Buddhists believe that there are 31 planes of existence and they can describe the exact location of each of these planes. According to Egerton C. Baptist, "There are people, even among Buddhists, who do not believe in the existence of the non-human unhappy "Lower Worlds" .... They seem to think that these unhappy 'states' are actually experienced on the human plane itself because they see much misery, in varying degrees, among human beings ...Heavens too, to them, are on the human plane itself, because they see wealthy, well-nourished, happy, human beings in their midst.... Nevertheless, ... Buddhism teaches that ... there is much misery on the non-human planes, as also much happiness in (other) non-human realms." (1981: )
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This is an interesting topic! I believe in Buddhism and buddhism says there is heaven n there is hell. Whether the reality hell or we are in a "hell" situation. I believe in such as as we know there are form and formless beings out there in this world and other worlds (again these different realms do exist).
I have witnessed the existence of spirits and this has made me believe of such realms for spirits do exist, so hell realm should exist as well since we have heaven realms for gods and himan realms. Animal realms also came into pitcure. So hell realm should exist and it is depicted clearly in Lamrim also.
Pabongka Rinpoche can't be making all these up rite? I mean there's no reason why High Lamas lie about a certain existence in order for us to believe. Simple enough is that if we believe in Buddhism, then we should believe in the existence of such realms and beings out there
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As a Buddhist whether there's a existence of 6 Realms or not it really doesn't matter or does it? Why would people worry about after life whereby we can actually make good use of our life towards dharma? Why do we worry if we were to burn over and over again if we are practicing dharma? Why do we have to concern if we have to walk through a field of broken glass if we are practicing dharma?
I think it is very important to appreciate the significance of the 6 realms.. I believe it is one of the basic fundamentals of Buddhism that one has to believe in in order to practice Buddhism well. If we disregarded the 6 realms, then it is the same as not believing in future lives and the workings of karma. If we think it doesn't matter whether the lower realms existed or not, how can we effectively develop the "fear" to be reborn in the lower realms and therefore have the sincere wish to be free from the lower realms which in turn leads to taking refuge with the 3 jewels to embark on the beginner's scope (at least)?
Moreover, if we think "it doesn't matter whether the 6 realms existed or not", this is the same as being selective in learning Dharma. How can we think "everything else we learn in Dharma is important but just not the stuff about the 6 realms" ? Why would Pabongka Rinpoche talk about the 6 realms in the Lamrim if it didn't really matter? It matters very much! How can we appreciate our precious human life if we don't know the downfall of being reborn in the other realms and the tremendous difficulty to be reborn back as a human?
Until we attain Buddhahood, we cannot be lax and think we have nothing to worry about being reborn in the other realms because we are "practicing Dharma" in this life. To assume that we will be ok just because we are "Dharma practitioners" now is very risky and a self-laid vicious trap. How sure are we that we are REALLY practicing Dharma purely?
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Hell exists and at the sametime it doesn't. Very interesting.
I was pretty exposed to Christianity when I was younger, so hell, to me is very very real.
However, recently I had a friendly discussion with some Dharma friends regarding the hell realm, and it pretty much came up as what was posted here in this thread.
When I asked the question about "who are all these hell beings? why do they exist in hell to torture? Are they beings that are there due to their bad karma as well? do they too get a chance for liberation?"
With these questions, someone very wise told me... hell beings are the projections of our mind. They exist and yet they don't exist.
For that reason, hell exist only through the projection of the mind. Which is why, when dying, it is very important to not let our minds disturbed, or else we may bring it to the next existance.
To answer the question... I think it will be easier for modern people especially beginners in spirituality to develop believe and understand the 6 realms. Without knowledge and wisdom to understand the nature of the mind, to directly tell them that hell exists through your mind projections... I believe will be very very detrimental for the individual.
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This is really an interesting question. Is it important for us to know Hell exist or not? If it does not exist, will it encourage us to making all the negative actions that leads to negative karma? Or if it does not exist, will we still be so frighten to create negative actions so as not to be rebirth in the lower realms?
I choose to believe that it is real as it is mentioned in the Lamrim. However, I find that it is more important that when I believe that it is real, that it leads me to not committing the negative action so that I would not be rebirth in the lower realms and also to treasure the current human rebirth more and make full use of this rebirth to practice Dharma.
By believing that it is real and do good, it also helps to prevent me from suffering the hell stage of mind in this current life and future life. :)
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Whether or not the 6 realms exists or not... it doesn't really matter because we are all in the state of potentially experiencing the realm of hell.
Even if hell is really a projection of the mind... and it does appear to be so, as long as that mind remains, there is nothing we can do to change it except learning the Dharma to eradicate that mind. The state of mind is very important... which is why even people living in the human realm, if their mind is not trained... can view that living in the human realm itself as living in hell.
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Whether or not the 6 realms exists or not... it doesn't really matter because we are all in the state of potentially experiencing the realm of hell.
Even if hell is really a projection of the mind... and it does appear to be so, as long as that mind remains, there is nothing we can do to change it except learning the Dharma to eradicate that mind. The state of mind is very important... which is why even people living in the human realm, if their mind is not trained... can view that living in the human realm itself as living in hell.
This is so absolutely TRUE. Heaven could be a place on earth or hell! But one thing's for sure we will all leave this place sooner or later and what matters most at the time of passing is how we've led our lives and where will our transfer to... animal, hell, spirit, godly realm?? So our karma will be following us, good and bad.
If we have come across the Dharma and found a Dharma teacher, we should cherish it for it is like finding a gold mine and we are so very fortunate for only a Lama our teacher can guide us at the time of death. Come to think of it Buddhist teachings and practices all revolves and involves in preparing one for that crucial critical moment - death.
It's like we live in this life is like a dream... it is only temporary and in time we will need to wake up from this dream in to another reality... or is it another dream? Hmmm....
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i do believe that the 6 realms do exist either the state of mind or the place.. for the place i see human and animal, i see people who since born till grow up have a very easy life and every thing are ready for them like they are the god who stay in haven as the same time i also see people who born in such a very bad condition and face with various difficulties and suffer continuously like they stay in hell.
And i have experience with the spirit so i believe there is a hungry ghost realms, i sometime had very bad experience and suffer a lot like stay in the hell, and sometime i feel very happy and lucky that can get things i want easily like i'm a god and of course some time i have jealousy of other people. And i do believe most of us have these experience before, just the matter of how we realize and do something about it?
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The first sets of CDs and books about Buddhism which I have listened/read is from Ajahn Brahm www.ajahnbrahm.org (http://www.ajahnbrahm.org)
At that time I don't know about the technicality such as the six realms, and when heard about the hell and such, I don't believe it all. However, when Ajahn Brahm talked about the hell, he is very skillful and I think what He said is similar to what the Zen master was saying.
For me, because I have not seen hell before, so it was very difficult for me to believe that there is such thing as cold hell, hot hell, hell of uninterrupted pain, etc. But when Ajahn Brahm explained that we can view hell as just suffering, it made it easier for me to accept. He went on to explain that hell can happen within human also. For example, when family members fighting for inheritance with each other, that itself is suffering.
As such, I felt it is the Dharma teachers' skillful means to teach the doctrine to different audiences.
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Hell will exist if we create the causes for it to exist. On that same token, hell will not exist should we not create the causes for it to exist. I believe we can go by this logic as regardless of whether the physical aspect of hell exists for all, if we do not create the causes for us to “go there” it would not be a reality and hence it does not exist per se.
It may well exist for someone who has created the causes for it to exist, hence it does exist in that persons perception. Whichever reality one chooses to believe, the fact it, Hell CAN exist and WILL manifest should we create the causes for it and the reverse will also apply.
This also applies to the other realms of existence I believe so best is to “aim” for the perfect opportune condition which is our very human existence we have now! But alas, we are here now so why not just do what we have to NOW? Why hope to return to practice in our next life. We may not be so lucky… in fact I know we may not be so lucky if we don't practice now!
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As the Buddha himself said,the truth is there for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.If you look at the world and your state of mind,it is not so difficult to understand the six realms.The god realm represent pride,the jealous god realm envy.The human realm doubt.The animal realm,hatred and anger.Have you experienced any of these states?We all do.If you look at the six realms from the viewpoint of your own mind,they make a lot of sense.
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I believe the 6 realms. For others whether there believe is really depend on how the perceive. For one who believes it should be due to understanding of cause and effect. I even see the 6 realm exist in the human realm which the suffering somehow look the same.
For example a person who suffered from bad diseases which make him experiences physical pain all the time.
Everything is depend on our karma and if we are able to purify and change our negative mind this will make situation better.