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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zach on November 08, 2011, 10:41:36 PM
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As the title says...?
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From what I know I would think no, Namka Barzin is not enlightened. That Namka Barzin is similar to Nechung, on the way towards enlightenment. Namka Barzin is part of the entourage like the many types of beings present in the entourage of a dharma protectors like Setrab he has many beings, ghosts and spirit within his entourage, under Setrab's command.
If these beings carry on benefitting beings serving an enlightened protector like Dorje Shugden they are creating a lot of merits in their 'service'. And we know merits does propel us towards enlightenment! What do you think ZW?
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No, Namkha Barzin is not fully enlightened. He is the spirit of a Geshe, and is among the "youngest" members of DS's entourage, having joined only about 60 years ago.
There has been a thread about this previously about the nature of Namkha Barzin and other protectors.
A further explanation here:
Domo Geshe Rinpoche tamed even more intractable beings. In the 1920s a Mongolian Geshe returned from pilgrimage in India and stopped at Dungkar Gonpa on his way to Lhasa. Rinpoche was away at the time and Umdze Sherab, who later became the famous abbot of Dungkar Gonpa, asked the Geshe to stay, as he had a high fever and was too sick to travel.
But the Geshe did not accept the invitation. He wanted to be in Lhasa for the Great Prayer Festival (Mönlam Chenmo). On the steep road to Phari, he reached the end of his life. He sat down next to the road and the death process started. The Geshe did his practice, which was not completed when several Bönpos arrived. Well intentioned, they performed the transference of consciousness, since the dying man had stopped breathing.
This interrupted the Geshe's practice on the most subtle level of consciousness and he turned into a raging spirit who killed many Bönpos in Tromo. Several Buddhist practitioners tried unsuccessfully to appease the fury of this being. When Domo Geshe Rinpoche returned, he tamed the ferocious spirit, put him under oath, and called him Namkha Bardzin. He became a special protector for the area of Tromo.
Source: Biography sketch of Domo Geshe Rinpoche which was written by Ursula Bernis in 1995, initially for inclusion in a compendium of biographies of great Gelugpa masters, http://www.nyackbuddhism.org/rinpoche.html (http://www.nyackbuddhism.org/rinpoche.html)
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The original thread can be read here:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=695.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=695.0)
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Well I was reading the supplication to Namkha Barzin and this but got me wondering.
Great Mongolian Geshe who was diligent and caught in storm returning,
Taunted and made fun of were the causes for you to manifest
‘compassionate’ anger to take on a form of a supreme Dharmapala,
I invoke your swift presence to this place now by the power of my refuge.
You who take on the form of a fully ordained monk holding sword which
Cuts the bonds of our temporal sufferings and difficulties,
Who holds a white skull cup representing that you have mastered tantra,
And who rides on a mystical gyaling as a mount, showing your tantric masteries.
Who rides amid psychic wind, fire and smoke with great speed,
And who has three eyes on the lookout for those in need of protection.
Since the great Mahasiddha of Phari, Dromo Geshe places confidence in you,
So I one with faith but little merit do also.
Mastered Tantra ? A Master of the Tantra's would be a fully accomplished being.
A 3rd eye is representative of Omnisicent wisdom as well...
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thanks for sharing this wonderful background of Namkha Narzin. But would like to share another story that was told by a friend.
Namkha Barzin was an Mongolian who had urge to be ordain as a monk, he traveled all the way to Dungkar monastery to fulfill his dream. He was bad treated and chased away after he reached in the monastery based on he look like an old and poor beggar, the monk in charge decline his request and threw him out, he was hurt badly.
He seeking help from another four monks that he met when he was on his way out from the monastery, but the only thing that he received was insult and beaten. He cursed all 5 monks that they would all be dead within one year. Much later, Namkar Barzin was found dead and the people nearby thrown his body into a river which later got stuck between stones. People nearby start throwing stone on his dead corpse and making fun of it.
A weird disease happened around the area where Namkar Barzin passed away not long later after his passed, and one of the monk who had mistreat Namkar Barzin died from the same disease, and another monk that mistreat Namkar Barzin started making a lot weird noises in seem like he's taking trance by some of the angry spirit. Domo Geshe Rinpoche of Dungkar Monastery later subdued Namkar Barzin and made him to take oath to protect Dharma teaching.
Since then, Namkar Barzin started taking trance to gave advise to people regarding monastery's important issues, he was also became the second main minister of Dorje Shugden.
Attached is a picture of Namkar Barzin who is red in color, one face, 2 hands, three eyes, and in wrathful expression.
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Namka Barzin is not fully enlightened but that does not mean he is not a Bodhisattva of perhaps 8th, 9th, or 10th stage bhumi which would allow him to manifest a third eye representing seeing into the future, a master of tantra, and other qualities that far surpass ordinary sentient beings. The path of seeing is 3rd stage bhumi. Although not enlightened Bodhisattvas or arhats can perform the deeds of protectors or assist beings in many ways toward enlightenment such as teaching or protection.
Having said that, as a unenlightened protector, whatever positive deeds he performs to serve Shugden can collect waves of merit than can bring him to enlightenment. Perhaps he started as an unenlightened protector who can become or has become enlightened along the way.
The 8 monks, 9 mothers, and 10 wrathful/youthful assistants, they in turn have assistants, and again they in turn have entourages and so on. These entourages are may not be enlightened also but still indirect entourages of Shugden.
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Thank you Mana. My earlier assumption of Namka Barzin was that if he was a Bodhisattva it would not be in the 8th, 9th and 10th level. I thought he would be rather more worldly. But what you explained fits with what had been explained about Nechung , that he is on the path to enlightenment and that in the service of the Dalai Lama he has collected and is collecting vast amounts of merits and will eventually be enlightened. But we never hear about that on Dorje Shugden as he is already enlightened.
So the many levels of entourages through their service through the 8 monks, 9 mothers, and 10 wrathful/youthful assistants, have a chance to become enlightened also nice!
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We can look at it as how unfortunate for a a geshe, to turned into a spirit.
Or another way of looking at it is how fortunate this Mongolian Geshe, though turned into a spirit yet, has the good merits to be tamed by Domo Geshe Rinpoche to join the entourage of Dorje Shugden to gain more merits to reach his final goal of enlightenment.
We are never sure of what lurks around the next corner for us due to our accumulated karma from countless lives.. but holding on to samaya with our lama, yidam and protector as one is the best thing for us to do.
best wishes always
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Yes very high lamas can invite spirits to join the Dorje Shugden entourage. How fortunate for such beings to happen to meet a high lama of that calibre and be part of the entourage. But having said that I would not want to be spirit so I can be incorporated into the Dorje Shugden mandala.
It is excellent for the spirits as they are already in a negative rebirth, so getting a chance to serve an Enlightened Dharma protector creates waves of merit for that spirit.
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here's another interesting account of Namkha Barzin, extracted from Lama Zopa's biography, the Lawdo Lama:
The story of Namkha Banin is as fowows. In the late 1910s or early 1930s, a Mongolian
man came to Dungkar Monastery seeking ordination as a monk. He was
old and poor, and the monk in charge told him that beggars were nor admitted
in the monastery and threw him out. The Mongolian Namkha Banin was very
hurt but begged to be allowed to stay because he had nowhere to go. He had come
all the way from Mongolia enduring much hardship in order to become a monk,
but instead he was abused and thrown out. At the gate of the monastery he met
four monks and again asked for help, but they beat him and chased him out. Then
Namkha Barzin cursed the five monks and told them that within one year they
would all be dead. Sometime later Namkha Barzin was found dead on top of the
pass near Perna Choling (padma chos gling). The nomads threw his body into the
river, where it got stuck for a few days among the rocks, and the herders nearby
amused themselves by throwing stones at the corpse. Finally, the body was carried
away by the water and disappeared.
A few months later, the herders and their yaks died one by one of a terrible disease
and looked as if they had been attacked by demons. The monk who had first
mistreated Namkha Banin caught the same disease and died. Then a monk fell
into a trance and began to make weird noises, while holding his hand with four
fingers outstretched. Dromo Geshe thought that it was the spirit of a dead person
trying to communicate. Sometime later another monk died in a similar way, and
Dromo Geshe inquired whether they had been connected with any crime against
anyone who had died recencly. Somebody then remembered Namkha Barzin and
his curse. Dromo Gehe was able to turn Namkha Barzin into a protecting spirit
(dam can, lirerally "one having taken oath") under the command of the spirit
Dorje Shugden. His oracle was established at Dungkar Monastery in the hope
that be would be pacified and spare the other three monks, but they also died
shortly thereafter. After that, Narnkha Barzin gave advice through the medium,
and he was consulted for any important matters concerning the monastery. Later,
a shrine was built on the pass where he had died, and everyone would stop to do
a short prayer at that place. Those who did not would invariably meet with an accident. Cf. Pemba (1957).
Namkha Barzin is said to be a wild tsen (btum) spitir. He is depicted as standing
on top of a decaying corpse, red in color, with one face, two hands, three eyes,
and a ferocious expression. Cf. Nebesky-Wojkowirz (1996, pp. 143-44},
What is interesting is they referred to Dorje Shugden as a spirit. How can a spirit be bounded to another spirit by oath? they can only be bounded to another Buddha by oath. The last part makes me wonder if it was even true at all: if they didnt do a prayer at that shrine, they would meet an accident? really? after being bounded by Dorje Shugden? I guess it is pretty clear the author is against Dorje Shugden, but it is an interesting perspective to the story.
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here's another interesting account of Namkha Barzin, extracted from Lama Zopa's biography, the Lawdo Lama:
The story of Namkha Banin is as fowows. In the late 1910s or early 1930s, a Mongolian
man came to Dungkar Monastery seeking ordination as a monk. He was
old and poor, and the monk in charge told him that beggars were nor admitted
in the monastery and threw him out. The Mongolian Namkha Banin was very
hurt but begged to be allowed to stay because he had nowhere to go. He had come
all the way from Mongolia enduring much hardship in order to become a monk,
but instead he was abused and thrown out. At the gate of the monastery he met
four monks and again asked for help, but they beat him and chased him out. Then
Namkha Barzin cursed the five monks and told them that within one year they
would all be dead. Sometime later Namkha Barzin was found dead on top of the
pass near Perna Choling (padma chos gling). The nomads threw his body into the
river, where it got stuck for a few days among the rocks, and the herders nearby
amused themselves by throwing stones at the corpse. Finally, the body was carried
away by the water and disappeared.
A few months later, the herders and their yaks died one by one of a terrible disease
and looked as if they had been attacked by demons. The monk who had first
mistreated Namkha Banin caught the same disease and died. Then a monk fell
into a trance and began to make weird noises, while holding his hand with four
fingers outstretched. Dromo Geshe thought that it was the spirit of a dead person
trying to communicate. Sometime later another monk died in a similar way, and
Dromo Geshe inquired whether they had been connected with any crime against
anyone who had died recencly. Somebody then remembered Namkha Barzin and
his curse. Dromo Gehe was able to turn Namkha Barzin into a protecting spirit
(dam can, lirerally "one having taken oath") under the command of the spirit
Dorje Shugden. His oracle was established at Dungkar Monastery in the hope
that be would be pacified and spare the other three monks, but they also died
shortly thereafter. After that, Narnkha Barzin gave advice through the medium,
and he was consulted for any important matters concerning the monastery. Later,
a shrine was built on the pass where he had died, and everyone would stop to do
a short prayer at that place. Those who did not would invariably meet with an accident. Cf. Pemba (1957).
Namkha Barzin is said to be a wild tsen (btum) spitir. He is depicted as standing
on top of a decaying corpse, red in color, with one face, two hands, three eyes,
and a ferocious expression. Cf. Nebesky-Wojkowirz (1996, pp. 143-44},
What is interesting is they referred to Dorje Shugden as a spirit. How can a spirit be bounded to another spirit by oath? they can only be bounded to another Buddha by oath. The last part makes me wonder if it was even true at all: if they didnt do a prayer at that shrine, they would meet an accident? really? after being bounded by Dorje Shugden? I guess it is pretty clear the author is against Dorje Shugden, but it is an interesting perspective to the story.
IMO It doesn't mean the author is against Dorje Shugden as the common appearance of Dorje Shugden according to those unknowing is that he manifests in the form of a Gyalpo spirit, However as you have already read in Music delighting we know Buddha's can choose to manifest in any form they wish and hence an enlightened being manifesting as a Spirit cannot actually be a Spirit because they do not have negative throwing karma.
Its maybe the most handy form to emanate in for a protector as Spirits are very close to the Human realm and many people have encounters with them and unenlightened spirits generally possess means of limited clairvoyance and other abilities so think of how swift one can receive help from an enlightened being posing as a spirit compared to an unenlightened spirit looking to cause harm I have often heard stories of ordinary people who have dangerous encounters with spirits.
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IMO It doesn't mean the author is against Dorje Shugden as the common appearance of Dorje Shugden according to those unknowing is that he manifests in the form of a Gyalpo spirit, However as you have already read in Music delighting we know Buddha's can choose to manifest in any form they wish and hence an enlightened being manifesting as a Spirit cannot actually be a Spirit because they do not have negative throwing karma.
Although in that sense the author is right, but only one camp of people would refer to Dorje Shugden as a spirit: the camp that is with the Dalai Lama. In essence, Dorje Shugden, Namkha Barzin and Setrap are tsen which is not the same as those from the preta realm, but are closest to our realm so they can benefit us. The manifestation is just an illusion to make themselves closer to us.
Its maybe the most handy form to emanate in for a protector as Spirits are very close to the Human realm and many people have encounters with them and unenlightened spirits generally possess means of limited clairvoyance and other abilities so think of how swift one can receive help from an enlightened being posing as a spirit compared to an unenlightened spirit looking to cause harm I have often heard stories of ordinary people who have dangerous encounters with spirits.
The difference between an unenlightened spirit and an enlightened being appearing as a spirit is vast: unenlightened spirits are out of control when they take trance and often become unpredictable and the oracle starts smoking and drinking. When enlightened beings taking the form of spirits take trance, the oracle remains calm, steady and dispenses advice.
Even though there is a 'reason' to refer to Dorje Shugden as a spirit, I still find it pretty rude to refer to him as a spirit and also the part of Namkha Barzin causing accidents to people who dont pay respect to his shrine. On his biography though, I dont feel sorry for the people whom he killed as what they did was nasty and very unbecoming. The least they could do was to give him a simple burial....
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Personally i really do not know if Namkha Barzin is fully enlightened or not..There are ppl who thinks he is not enlightened and assistance to DS under training. Anyway, does anyone knows what is his jobscope by the way?
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We can look at it as how unfortunate for a a geshe, to turned into a spirit.
Or another way of looking at it is how fortunate this Mongolian Geshe, though turned into a spirit yet, has the good merits to be tamed by Domo Geshe Rinpoche to join the entourage of Dorje Shugden to gain more merits to reach his final goal of enlightenment.
We are never sure of what lurks around the next corner for us due to our accumulated karma from countless lives.. but holding on to samaya with our lama, yidam and protector as one is the best thing for us to do.
best wishes always
Let't not speculate about whether Namka Badzin is enlightened or not; or if he is a spirit. I would take it tahat since he is in the Dorje Shugden entourage and a second minister no less, he is a bodhisattva at least. Like Mana said, 8th bhumi boddhisattva at least. Like Nechung, by serving the Lama who is one with the protector, he generates the last merits needed to gain enlightenment. We never knows what is in store for us. But one sure thing is by serving the Guru, we have definitely have protection from the lower realms and our chance is the highest. So always have pure Guru Devotion.
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Personally i really do not know if Namkha Barzin is fully enlightened or not..There are ppl who thinks he is not enlightened and assistance to DS under training. Anyway, does anyone knows what is his jobscope by the way?
His enlightened state is already mentioned earlier in the thread and I believe some were thinking that he is quite an advance practitioner on the path already. I believe Namkar Barzin's role in Dorje Shugden's mandala is to protect buildings and great institutions. I believe that he would do more to assist and would be carrying out the instructions of Dorje Shugden's.
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We can look at it as how unfortunate for a a geshe, to turned into a spirit.
Namkha Barzin is not a Geshe but a sincere Mongolian man who only wanted to be a monk but instead of ordination he was made fun of and scorned by the monks(!) and the localities. Whatever retribution they received from that is something I find very fitting for what they have done. Namkha Barzin is not enlightened but he works under Dorje Shugden and has been training under him since.
Or another way of looking at it is how fortunate this Mongolian Geshe, though turned into a spirit yet, has the good merits to be tamed by Domo Geshe Rinpoche to join the entourage of Dorje Shugden to gain more merits to reach his final goal of enlightenment.
Namkha Barzin may not have gotten ordination during his life, but he got something more during his death: direct and personal training from Dorje Shugden himself. He may not be enlightened yet, but it would be soon as Dorje Shugden is constantly training and teaching him with ways of the Dharma.
We are never sure of what lurks around the next corner for us due to our accumulated karma from countless lives.. but holding on to samaya with our lama, yidam and protector as one is the best thing for us to do.
Without samaya, nothing much can be done by the Guru, Yidam or Protector, therefore holding it is important.
best wishes always
I like your points but I do want to get things straight for a bit because an enlightened protector and an unenlightened one has a huge difference :)
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Most of us who are lay people practitioners belong to Sangha communities are not enlightened ourselves. In the 3 refuges the Sangha is object of refuge. Any sentient being who take refuge automatically becomes a Sangha member regardless of ethnic, gender, age, or form (all 6 realms) or formless. As long as one listen to Buddha teachings, put Dharma into practice, hold commitments and vows, one can definitely benefit other sentient beings with one's capacity. Thus one is object of refuge as a member of Sangha. The Sangha community doesn't specific only human race can take refuge and become an object of refuge as a member of Sangha. Also in the sutras when Buddha gave a teaching there are many times mentioned human, and many beings from other realms gather to listen. Some achieve realization, some took refuge after listening to the sermon.
We can look at it as how unfortunate for a a geshe, to turned into a spirit.
Or another way of looking at it is how fortunate this Mongolian Geshe, though turned into a spirit yet, has the good merits to be tamed by Domo Geshe Rinpoche to join the entourage of Dorje Shugden to gain more merits to reach his final goal of enlightenment.
We are never sure of what lurks around the next corner for us due to our accumulated karma from countless lives.. but holding on to samaya with our lama, yidam and protector as one is the best thing for us to do.
best wishes always
Let't not speculate about whether Namka Badzin is enlightened or not; or if he is a spirit. I would take it tahat since he is in the Dorje Shugden entourage and a second minister no less, he is a bodhisattva at least. Like Mana said, 8th bhumi boddhisattva at least. Like Nechung, by serving the Lama who is one with the protector, he generates the last merits needed to gain enlightenment. We never knows what is in store for us. But one sure thing is by serving the Guru, we have definitely have protection from the lower realms and our chance is the highest. So always have pure Guru Devotion.
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Anyone who has the motivation to become a monk has some form of seed of renunciation in his mind. As a practitioner if one discourage the other person from becoming a monk, the negative karma is heavy. Inflicting physical harm to someone who has the motivation of renunciation multiples the negative karma many folds because many sentient beings will not be benefited from this person becoming a monk. As a practitioner who holds vows, practicing the opposite of virtue, the karma is so heavy it ripens within one year in their life.
I beg to differ on karma as fitting for the monks. Instead with the motivation to help all sentient beings we make prayers and dedicate our merits to them in order for them to take good rebirth in an opportunity to learn and practice Dharma again. They became monks in their past lives and accumulate much merits but due to unforeseen negative karma ripening they have broken the vows and past away in lower realms because of their action. They have the opportunity to accept the Mongolian man and accumulates tremendous amount of merits for themselves and others but missed the opportunity.
We can look at it as how unfortunate for a a geshe, to turned into a spirit.
Namkha Barzin is not a Geshe but a sincere Mongolian man who only wanted to be a monk but instead of ordination he was made fun of and scorned by the monks(!) and the localities. Whatever retribution they received from that is something I find very fitting for what they have done. Namkha Barzin is not enlightened but he works under Dorje Shugden and has been training under him since.
Or another way of looking at it is how fortunate this Mongolian Geshe, though turned into a spirit yet, has the good merits to be tamed by Domo Geshe Rinpoche to join the entourage of Dorje Shugden to gain more merits to reach his final goal of enlightenment.
Namkha Barzin may not have gotten ordination during his life, but he got something more during his death: direct and personal training from Dorje Shugden himself. He may not be enlightened yet, but it would be soon as Dorje Shugden is constantly training and teaching him with ways of the Dharma.
We are never sure of what lurks around the next corner for us due to our accumulated karma from countless lives.. but holding on to samaya with our lama, yidam and protector as one is the best thing for us to do.
Without samaya, nothing much can be done by the Guru, Yidam or Protector, therefore holding it is important.
best wishes always
I like your points but I do want to get things straight for a bit because an enlightened protector and an unenlightened one has a huge difference :)
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Personally i really do not know if Namkha Barzin is fully enlightened or not..There are ppl who thinks he is not enlightened and assistance to DS under training. Anyway, does anyone knows what is his jobscope by the way?
What I heard of is that by propitiating to Namkha Barzin our home, office and property will be protected from thieves and burglars. Having an image on top of the main door (I'm unsure of the back door) deflects would-be perpetrators.
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Reading through this thread, I realised that the debate on whether Namkar Barzin is enlightened or not isnt fully settled yet. Mana says he is not, while Big Uncle says he is.
I found this article on http://www.dorjeshugden.com/introduction/mandala/great-ministers-of-dorje-shugden/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/introduction/mandala/great-ministers-of-dorje-shugden/) which seems to clarify the issue. I dont doubt the accuracy of this information as it was on this site itself.
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NAMKAR BARZIN
This Protector is of fairly recent origin and is an unenlightened, oath-bound minister of Dorje Shugden. Namka Bardzin is a tsen spirit with three eyes. He is shown with his teeth gnawing his lower lip, brandishing a sword in his right hand and holding a skull cup filled with the enemies’ blood in his left. He wears the robes of an ordained monk and rides a mythical unicorn-like creature called a gyaling.
He came into being during the 1920?s when he was still alive as a Mongolian Geshe. This Geshe had just returned from a pilgrimage through India and stopped by Dungkar Monastery on his way back. During his stay, he developed a high fever but insisted on leaving because he wanted to return to Lhasa for the Monlam festivities.
At that time, the legendary Domo Geshe Rinpoche was away from the monastery. In his place, the lead chanter, Umze Sherab, requested the Geshe to stay so he could recover from his illness first. However, he politely refused and left the monastery in haste. During the arduous journey, his health degenerated further and his life finally came to an end along a steep road to Phari. While he lay down dying, he engaged in meditative death practices.
Several Bönpos (practitioners of the indigenous Tibetan faith) came across his body and found that he had passed away. With good intention, they performed funerary rites that were similar to the Buddhist transference of consciousness. However, their ritual and handling of his remains had an adverse effect on the dying Geshe’s subtle meditations. As a result, he became a fearsome, raging spirit and when his dead corpse was made fun of by the local herders, strange things began to happen to them.
The herders and livestock slowly died, one by one, of a terrible disease. Their expressions at death looked like they had been disturbed by the unseen. The Bönpos too succumbed and died under similar circumstances. One of them even fell into a trance and uttered strange noises while holding out his hand with four outstretched fingers. It seemed the unseen had revealed the number of victims he wished to attack.
Many tried various means to appease this ferocious spirit but to no avail. Finally, these tragedies came to the attention of Domo Geshe Rinpoche as many people were very afraid of who would be attacked next by this spirit. Domo Geshe Rinpoche was told of the deaths so he quickly quelled the spirit in a powerful ritual and placed him under the care of Dorje Shugden. Then, he installed him also as the Protector of Tromo Monastery and Dungkar Monastery. A shrine to this Protector was built and soon, the monastery oracle could take trance of him and offer advice concerning the monastery. He is thus also a Dharma Protector in his own right.
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I have some questions about Namkha Barzin. It is said that if there is disharmony in a temple, and if the inhabitants of the temple pray or invoke Namkha Barzin, he will help promote harmony in the temple and things will become smooth for them. Is this true? i am sure I have read this somewhere before. And if it is true, can we invoke them if the situation requires it?
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Namkha Barzin is one of the youngest member of Dorje Shugden's entourage. He was a Mongolian Geshe who died on his way from Dungkar Monastery to Lhasa.
On death he became an angry spirit and was subdued by Domo Rinpoche to become a member of DS's entourage under oath to protect the Dharma.
Namkha Barzin is not enlightened but in his capacity as a member of DS's entourage, he is on his way to be enlightened.
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Thank you all for all your thoughts and input on this topic. It is so good to know that spirits can be subdued by high lamas and be bound to work for the benefit of others. This way, the spirit are able to collect merits which will in turn help them on their way to liberate themselves.
Much thanks to Thor also for clarifying this issue and pointing us to the site where this fact was stated. Dorjeshugden.com is definitely the right place to go for a clear and accurate answer to our queries.