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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: WoselTenzin on September 29, 2011, 03:39:20 PM
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I have read somewhere that says the true measure of progress in our spiritual practice is when we do not react negatively towards others no matter how badly they treat us or how they have wronged us. Instead, in spite of everything we should feel compassion for them. We accept defeat and offer the victory to others always.
When we are able to do that our "enemy" and our "problems" from our point of view disappears. We become peaceful and happy. And this is a proven method to happiness and great masters of the past are testimony to the success of this practice. Since this is the case, why is it that everyone wants happiness but finds it so difficult to practice accept defeat and offering the victory to others? Why is it we lack faith in such practice? Very often, we don't seem to believe it works. Why?
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Dear Wosel Tenzin, let me give you my thoughts on this subject:
It appears to be so much more comfortable to be right, or should I be more explicit to be seen as right from others (for "to be" right is an extreme statement).
And when the others see their actions as wrong on top of seeing our actions as right, this is BANCO!
We are virtually in control of others, that is at least how a bias mind understands the situation.
1. I AM RIGHT, THE OTHERS ARE WRONG.
2. THE OTHERS RECOGNIZE THAT I AM RIGHT.
3. THE OTHERS RECOGNIZE THAT THEY ARE WRONG.
That is a process that feeds our ego with poisonous self-righteousness.
Because we are so self-indulged, we can only like it when steps 1,2 and 3 above occur; and then the step 4. is very simple: we abuse the situation without even knowing it, because we are right! Right?
I speak for myself for I know when I encounter the above 3 steps, I feel at ease.
A wise person would know better than that and would understand the dangers for us to have our ego inflated: we get blind to others.
And indeed, we create a world in which everyone that agrees with us comes in and those that don't: OUT!
Not realistic, not wise, for there is NOTHING nor NOBODY that is not part of our existence.
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Defeat is something no one accepts. Victory is something everyone wants. This is a fact. So, when you hear a teaching to "Accept defeat and offer the Victory to Others" - this sends our mental state and social standards and belief system UPSIDE DOWN!!! The ego goes into overdrive fighting this teaching!
Yes, the need to be right dominates how we behave so very much.
When I understood the meaning of this teaching, there was relief in me. Being "Right" is tiring. Having to always "fight" to make yourself heard and right. Standing up and resisting to others because in wanting to be "Right" one does not listen. When we do not listen we do not engage and build good relationships.
Accepting defeat does not mean you lose... Giving victory to others does not mean we lose.
By accepting defeat we can learn from our mistakes and open up room for improvement. This can gain respect and earn us humility. When you give the victory to others, we break the resistance and the stance to defend to be Right. Plus we empower people because when people are not wronged for expressing something contradictory to us, it opens up space for communication, learning, engagement and so much more can be created.
This is what I understand and have been learning daily to accept defeat and offer the victory to others... I have learnt and grown to be a better person practicing this.
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It would appear that when we accept defeat, we are letting the other person win.
However, when we think about it, the victory is ours. We have actually defeated our ego(which always insists on us winning over others). Our ego is our worst enemy and we have vanquished it when we give the victory to others.
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Letting others win does not necessarily mean we are wrong but it's more of not letting our ego get the better of us to always want to be right and in the process create suffering for others and ourselves.
If we always want to be right, we may offend others and create enemies. We will also be stucked with our old ways of doing things which may not have worked for us in the first place. Letting others win creates peace and open up a whole new possibility of other ways of thinking or doing things which may be better for us in the long run. After all we can also be wrong.
Whether one is right or wrong, what others say or insist will not change the facts. There is really no need to impose our views on others. Wrong or right after all is a matter of perception. Furthermore, different perception could have arisen from different basis. When we are able to look at situations objectively, many conflicts can be avoided and harmony can prevail.
If we analyze with logic why we should accept defeat and offer the victory to others, faith in this practice will arise and we will be inspired to put it into practice. Easier said than done but the sages of the past cannot be wrong. So no harm putting it into practice and see the results for ourselves.
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To offer victory wholeheartedly, we need to have a reversal of our fundamental views about what matters in our life. If we still hang on to worldly ideas of gain such as in material possessions, name, status etc then it will be very difficult to practice this wisdom. We will not be able to dissociate ourselves from the feeling of loss. However, if we understand that giving up these worldly concerns for externals lead to a gain in true permanent happiness and freedom from suffering it will make us more determined to practice.
The difficult part is our habituation. Most of our actions are impulsive or instinctive. Sometimes we do have some control of our negative emotions and able to prevent negativities from being acted out. But this happens usually when the issues are not big ones.
Our main experience of happiness is the temporary kind so far . To change our views and thoughts to practice something we are unfamiliar with requires lots of faith, effort and perseverance before it can produce results which are clearly superior to those achieved via old ways.
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After reading this thread, I was wondering how many times in a day we are trying to be right or proof a point that we are better and smarter than others during our interactions.
It seems that these incidences happen all the time either on a subtle level as well as on a more obvious level.
I guess "accepting defeat and offering the victory to others" does not mean that we always have to be quiet or act indifferently. I believe it is more of how we present our views, and we should always remember that "OUR" views are based on "OUR" experience and "OUR" perceptions of matters whereas others will always have "THEIR" views based on "THEIR" experience and "THEIR" perceptions on matters. Sometimes "OURS" and "THEIRS" are the same, and sometimes, these may different.
I believe if we have this basis in everything we do in life, even differences can be viewed as interesting and mind opening, and a learning process as well.
Just my 2 cents of opinion.
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From the day we were born till now, we have been conditioned to have a winning attitude where I win and others lose. It has been embedded in our minds so much that offering victory to others seems so difficult. We must win all the time. That is why people find it hard to accept defeat as it makes them lose face or their ego is hurt.
For me, it is a practice. Offering victory to others does not mean that we lose. It could be a winning situation for both parties. And it takes a "big" person to be able to let the other party win. By doing this, we are practicing compassion or at least a small step towards a compassionate mind. I would not say that it is easy but it a start to transform our mind.
By letting others win also may make it easier for them to accept our views in the future as they may see it that we respect their views and therefore will respect ours.
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I have read somewhere that says the true measure of progress in our spiritual practice is when we do not react negatively towards others no matter how badly they treat us or how they have wronged us. Instead, in spite of everything we should feel compassion for them. We accept defeat and offer the victory to others always.
When we are able to do that our "enemy" and our "problems" from our point of view disappears. We become peaceful and happy. And this is a proven method to happiness and great masters of the past are testimony to the success of this practice. Since this is the case, why is it that everyone wants happiness but finds it so difficult to practice accept defeat and offering the victory to others? Why is it we lack faith in such practice? Very often, we don't seem to believe it works. Why?
Does this mean that we should let people who commit crimes get away with their crimes? If so, wouldn't that send the wrong message that it's ok to commit crimes?
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This is not an easy thing that I can do. Not to say that I want the victory but just don't like to be the defeated one or the wrong one.
Our EGO will always come up when any argument arises and sometimes it's not our mind controlling our speech but our EGO that talk.
Accepting defeat doesn't really mean that we accept the wrong on our self but it is to lowered down our self EGO for not causing any or further damages to others. We would not want to win but to see others suffer, this is not Buddhist practice.
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I have read somewhere that says the true measure of progress in our spiritual practice is when we do not react negatively towards others no matter how badly they treat us or how they have wronged us. Instead, in spite of everything we should feel compassion for them. We accept defeat and offer the victory to others always.
When we are able to do that our "enemy" and our "problems" from our point of view disappears. We become peaceful and happy. And this is a proven method to happiness and great masters of the past are testimony to the success of this practice. Since this is the case, why is it that everyone wants happiness but finds it so difficult to practice accept defeat and offering the victory to others? Why is it we lack faith in such practice? Very often, we don't seem to believe it works. Why?
Does this mean that we should let people who commit crimes get away with their crimes? If so, wouldn't that send the wrong message that it's ok to commit crimes?
The person might get away from it now, but his karma will catch up one day. Karma is very fair and non stop creating, ripening...
Giving victory to other does not mean that we let them continue to hurt others. I think it is also us to let go. We should still report the person if the create any crime but with a calmer and peaceful mind, knowing that this will help them in the future, stopping them from creating more negative karma and hurting others.
Besides, if we can offer the victory, we ourselves are sending a good message that we can be more compassionate than what we think.
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" Accepting Defeat and Offering the Victory to Others" - we know that is the right thing to do but it is so difficult to put into practice. Why is it so? Because our EGO is so big that we refused to accept defeat even though we know we are wrong and we go into a denial state. Always fighting and proving that we are right even though we are wrong is tiring, time consuming and non productive. Besides that we are also collecting negative karma. However, if the other person is wrong and that person thinks he/she is right and even after explaining or arguing with him/her bears no result, just let the other person win. Karma will catch up.
For me it is to put this mind transformation into my daily practice and eventually learn to cut down my ego and be a better person.
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This is a very hard practice but if we can do it, the victory is ours. We will conquer our delusions and lay the foundation for the Bodhisattva path. We will purify our negative karma and generate a lot of merits. By offering the victory to others, we are actually developing compassion. We must not be attached to external results and react negatively when others treat us out of delusions. When they treat us badly, this is the time to practise Dharma as our guru has taught us.
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When we are able to do that our "enemy" and our "problems" from our point of view disappears. We become peaceful and happy. And this is a proven method to happiness and great masters of the past are testimony to the success of this practice. Since this is the case, why is it that everyone wants happiness but finds it so difficult to practice accept defeat and offering the victory to others? Why is it we lack faith in such practice? Very often, we don't seem to believe it works. Why?
I think some of the reasons why we don't really believe "offering the victory to others" works and why it is difficult for us to practice offering the victory and accepting defeat are:
- We have been conditioned since young that there is absolute right and absolute wrong, and being right = rewarded while being wrong = punished.
We mistake that verse to mean "I think I am right but I let you win", hence the real happiness that comes with practising it properly cannot be experienced, and therefore it does not really "work" for us.
We cannot equate "losing" in the worldly sense with "gaining" spiritually.
We think our happiness is more important than the other person's (whom we should offer the victory to) happiness.
Personally, I try to put this verse into practice when I argue with someone. I noticed that the longer I hold on to the view that "I am right! How can they do this to me? They should apologise to me because they are wrong to hurt me like this!" the longer I feel angry and upset. Then I remember about this verse, I feel humbled and "deflated" and my heart opens (literally can feel this) up to consider the other person's perspective... and remember that I am the cause for the anger that arises within me, not the other person... then I would apologize to the person. When this happens all the negative emotions slips away like sand through my fingers.
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Ever since I got the chance to understand Dharma, I realized it is easy said than done but that does not mean that we can't change how we react. I've learned to slowly let go my ego as I realized there can never be enough of who's right or wrong. Imagine...Never ending arguments. I've tried accepting defeat and offering victory and I found that I feel great in the end. I will try hard to be better at it!
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When we are able to do that our "enemy" and our "problems" from our point of view disappears. We become peaceful and happy. And this is a proven method to happiness and great masters of the past are testimony to the success of this practice. Since this is the case, why is it that everyone wants happiness but finds it so difficult to practice accept defeat and offering the victory to others? Why is it we lack faith in such practice? Very often, we don't seem to believe it works. Why?
It is always not an easy trait one can accomplish in just a moment. It has to be conditioned over time by checking our mind constantly should situation arises warrant us to justify and defend oneself. All this boils down to our big fat ego thinking that we are always right. No matter where we are or what we do and having expectations one will experience arguments, justifications, defensive, always want to be right...all these will never end if one does not let go. Both parties will be ended up hurt or unhappy. Is that what we want?
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Offering Victory to others does not mean we are defeated. In fact we win. We win because we are not controlled by our emotional and unstable mind that arises from our ego. We always want to win and what is left is the after effects of the devastation created because we cannot put our ego down. All lose. Why create something that have negative consequences when we can choose otherwise? Just to feed our ego? We offer victory to others there will be less stress, less arguments, no war. Be happy! ;D
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In the beginning it is very hard to accept defeat and let others win but with time it will become easier. However I find in some cases it is necessary to not let others win. For example:
If letting someone win, will cause the person to repeat that action again, and the action brings them more negative karma, then it is necessary to stop them. Such is the case that we should not accept defeat.
Having said that, letting others win is a great way to practice humility and humbleness, so we definitely should let others win, unless we see that letting them win will bring them greater suffering in the future.
This is just what I think, it may not necessarily be right, but please someone let me know what you think.
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This topic reminds me of 8 verses of thought transformation. Accepting defeat doesn't mean blaming yourself for things that aren't your responsibility,losing your self dignity or making youself a doormat.It means letting go of having to be right,of having to have the last word.We don't have to prove our case.We don't have to make sure that everybody understands that we are right and the other person is wrong.It means letting go of our ego's need to prove itself and be the conqueror.Instead of sowing bitterness,you sow forgiveness.
Through this practise one will be a happier person.
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According to Pabongka Rinpoche, this verse from Langri Tangpa's Eight Verses of Mind Transformation is the ultimate instruction on training the mind and will enable one to achieve Buddhahood.
In "Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand", Pabongka Rinpoche related the story about how Geshe Chaekawa came across this verse and decided to look for Langri Tangpa. But Langri Tangpa had died, so he requested his successor Sharawa to give him instruction on mind training. Through Sharawa's teaching, Chaekawa developed bodhicitta and gave this instruction to many lepers who were cured by meditating on this instruction. The teaching came to be called "Lepers' Dharma".
Before this time, the teaching was kept a secret. But Chaekawa thought it a great pity to keep it a secret and decided to teach it in public. His teaching is called the "Essence of Nectar Instruction", containing the "Seven-Point Mind Training".
This teaching helps us to abandon self-cherishing and achieve bodhicitta. (See "Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand", p. 537)
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Since beginingless time, we are only familiar with ourselves - our ego. Our survival instinct will without fail guide us to protect this ego come what may! Anything concerning others is generally out of our scope of interest. There is only the win-lose situations. No win-win or lose-win situations for us.
"Accepting defeat and offering the victory to others" consist of two parts. The first part is to accept defeat. With our egoistic mind since beginningless time, this is almost impossible to do. The second part is to offer victory. Already defeated and yet willing to let others win is like adding salt to the wound! Hence accepting defeat and offering victory – a very high level and advanced mind training or Lojong practice – is beyond many practitioners’ reach. On the other hand, this profound practice is very beneficial. It gives us vast amount of merits, it purifies our negative karma when we take on the suffering of others and finally it helps to destroy our self-cherishing mind. This Lojong practice is the basis to our achievement of the mind of bodhichitta.
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How often can we accept defeat and offer the victory to others? We have been told to treat our greatest enemy is our practice for it is he who will be the object to lead us on the path to change us.
Since it is very difficult to accept being on the losing end, letting the other party wins becomes the focus of our practice. Our ego may be dented; we feel we lost out but this is not the issue. What is important is that whatever the situation, the issue must be settled between the parties to come to an amicable solution.
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Very interesting topic we have here, Nice to read again all the replies.
Offering the victory to others reminds me of the solution that Mahatma Gandhi came up with prior to the separation of India between a Muslim state and a Hindu state.
The will for a separation was stronger in the Muslim party than it was in the Hindu party, mostly because they were in a minority, a large minority, but a minority.
When some of the Muslim Indians came demanding their own separate country (which will later take reality as Pakistan and Bangladesh), Gandhi was extremely distraught, as he taught India should stay united and he could see no reason why Hindus and Muslims could not live together harmoniously as they had done for centuries already.
To Gandhi, the separation between 2 countries was more a cause for conflicts than a solution to conflicts.
And Gandhi was seriously concerned about this.
So Gandhi very seriously suggested that India be led by the Muslim party and remain ONE.
He suggested this as the solution to the problem. Gandhi knew that this would be a solution, that it would silence the reasoning and argumentation of the separatists. He knew that this was a cause for respect, for tolerance, for understanding, for harmony.
Accept defeat and give them the victory and the cause for conflict ceases to exist.
Accept defeat and give them the victory and the struggle to "win" ends there, creating ample room for real dialogue, harmony and peace.
Accept defeat and give them the victory and the victory will be ours all.
I really think that history would have proven him right.
History certainly did not prove that the separation was a cause for peace, for there would be peace by now, and all there is is fear and "status-quo" with a very strong and scary potential for conflict at any time.
I pray and dedicate the merit from participating to this forum today directly to peace on the Indian continent.
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This is a very interesting thread. Personally I also do not know how it works exactly. It is okay when people get difficult and insist they are right, I would be okay and let them win even though it goes against my thought of how it should be. You'll feel compassionate about them and hoping they will sometimes see the way you see things because you learn the dharma. But if you keep offering the victory to them, wouldn't it all allow us to become more ignorant and not doing anything about it? I suppose it has a lot to do with wisdom, how to apply skillful means to go about the situation. A lot of us just talk and talk and do not do the walk. How many are doing the walk. So i guess it is the consistency of compassion and determination to stick around that very person to help and make sure whatever they win, is true victory of dharma. To me that is true dharma practice. To offer the very victory to them is not just momentarily.
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Accepting defeat and Offering to Victory the others saves us a lot of time trying to justify and can avoid very unnecessary circumstances. If we keep on trying to win there will be no end and the results are often bad. History has showed us that wars and conflicts arises from indifferences created by two parties or more and the results are always negative when both or more parties does not want to stand down and let each other win or have a compromise. Wanting to win all the time only makes us miserable. Anyway the only thing that gets hurt if we lose is our ego.
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Very interesting topic we have here, Nice to read again all the replies.
Offering the victory to others reminds me of the solution that Mahatma Gandhi came up with prior to the separation of India between a Muslim state and a Hindu state.
The will for a separation was stronger in the Muslim party than it was in the Hindu party, mostly because they were in a minority, a large minority, but a minority.
When some of the Muslim Indians came demanding their own separate country (which will later take reality as Pakistan and Bangladesh), Gandhi was extremely distraught, as he taught India should stay united and he could see no reason why Hindus and Muslims could not live together harmoniously as they had done for centuries already.
To Gandhi, the separation between 2 countries was more a cause for conflicts than a solution to conflicts.
And Gandhi was seriously concerned about this.
So Gandhi very seriously suggested that India be led by the Muslim party and remain ONE.
He suggested this as the solution to the problem. Gandhi knew that this would be a solution, that it would silence the reasoning and argumentation of the separatists. He knew that this was a cause for respect, for tolerance, for understanding, for harmony.
Accept defeat and give them the victory and the cause for conflict ceases to exist.
Accept defeat and give them the victory and the struggle to "win" ends there, creating ample room for real dialogue, harmony and peace.
Accept defeat and give them the victory and the victory will be ours all.
I really think that history would have proven him right.
History certainly did not prove that the separation was a cause for peace, for there would be peace by now, and all there is is fear and "status-quo" with a very strong and scary potential for conflict at any time.
I pray and dedicate the merit from participating to this forum today directly to peace on the Indian continent.
Interesting example you gave here HR.
So offering the victory to others does not equate with giving up... In fact, I believe it is harder to offer the victory and let go of our instinctual urge to WIN, our urge to BE RIGHT than it is to give in SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS and hold on to the grudge.
So offering the victory to others is a definite sign of great strength and great skills, I think we should contemplate on that.
IT IS NOT ABOUT WINNING, IT IS ABOUT BEING OF BENEFIT TO OTHERS AND OUR SELF.
When we offer victory to others, we actually have won a battle with our ego.
When we offer the victory to others we have de-fused the WMD.
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IT IS NOT ABOUT WINNING, IT IS ABOUT BEING OF BENEFIT TO OTHERS AND OUR SELF.
When we offer victory to others, we actually have won a battle with our ego.
When we offer the victory to others we have de-fused the WMD.
WMD?
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I have been pondering about this for sometime and it has always been a tricky issue to me.
I guess the first step is to accept that we may not be right all the time. Even if we are, we should give in to others to stop more negative karma from arising. There must be a reason why we experience certain situations anyways. It's our previous karma to be accused, blamed, misunderstood, yelled at, abused, etc.
What if the person is really wrong? Then we have to question our motivation. Do I just keep quiet and let the person win because it's easier to deal with but deep inside we do not let go and just boils up? Is it beneficial for this person if I give in? Am I trying to tell this person off because of my ego or is it truly to benefit them?
I guess the best is not to react. To me this is what it means by accepting defeat and offering victory to others. By not reacting, we will be able to think clearly and get our motivation right. By not acting in anger, giving view point can also improve and feed backs will be more clear, accurate and effective.
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As humans it is only natural for us to defend ourselves as respond to pain. We only need to understand how the pain started and be open minded about the other end's ideal of it's situation, then our anger would immediately dissolve. We wouldn't have to say that we are surrendering the victory to others when there is a reason for everything. Once you understand the whole scenario on this unlikely situation you would learn that you could be the wrong one. Even if you are right, there is no reason on why you have to make sure that others know your victory when it may lead to an unnecessary fight. It's call being ethical and mature. You don't need a scientist to tell you that.
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When others out of jealousy treat me badly with abuse, slander and the like, may I suffer the defeat and offer the victory to others. This is one of the Eight Verses of Training the Mind by Geshe Langri Tangpa. When I heard it for the first time, it blew my mind away. And not exactly in a very positive way! I thought to myself, "no way I am gona let everyone step all over me and graciously accept it. How stupid is that!"
Years later, i come across a text on this teachings. When Geshe Chekawa (a great Kadampa Buddhist meditation master) met Geshe Sharawa (one of the main disciples of Geshe Langri Tangpa), he asked him "How important is the practice of accepting defeat and offering the victory to others?"
Geshe Sharawa replied, "If you want to attain enlightenment, this practice is essential." Geshe Chekhawa then requested full instructions on this practice and Geshe Sharawa said "If you stay with me for several years I will teach you." Geshe Chekhawa stayed with Geshe Sharawa for 12 years until he mastered the practice of training the mind. He had to face many different kinds of ordeals: all sorts of difficulties, criticism, hardships, and abuse. And the teaching was so effective, and his perseverance in its practice so intense, that he completely eradicated any self-grasping and self-cherishing.
Till today, this is still one of my hardest practices due my habituation to always want to be right, but each time when this thought arises, at least I catch myself and apply this teaching the the fullest extend that I am capable of for now.
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Till today, this is still one of my hardest practices due my habituation to always want to be right, but each time when this thought arises, at least I catch myself and apply this teaching the the fullest extend that I am capable of for now.
Ain't it hard!
Ain't it hard indeed!
From where I am at in my practice, and when facing conflicting situations, I have improved in the sense that I do not engage in actions that make me win in the eye of my "opponent". I don't do that anymore.
But INSIDE, INSIDE, I can say it is a real mess of anger and frustration fueled further by my "non-retaliation action".
What I am saying is that from the outside it must be that I look different now than how I looked a few years ago because a few people told me that they know few people that have the patience that I have, they told me I became much calmer, but they don't see inside my mind the huge monster that I keep in chains and muted, trying to tame it.
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so simply because we are not catch up with our mind, that why we let delusions to bring us up and down ie when we happy and attached about it or when we feel sad and we stuck on it.
If we are always know our mind, know what we are doing and what we are feeling at every moment then it will be easy for us to let go and not attach with the good and bad feeling that happen and not cling on it or response to it without think about it clearly.
That why awareness is one of a very powerful way of practice that can help to tame our mind and control our body, speech and mind which lead to develope bodhicitta to arising in our mind.
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"Accepting Defeat and Offering the Victory to Others" strike a weird nerve in our entire being and turn on the fear of either winning or losing. The universal system is built on this standard of gauging results. There is no middle.
Our egos lap up this wonderful standard of excellence and gauge of success.
To contemplate more on this phrase, does it really mean winning and losing? Or is it our perception that make any event winning and losing issues.
It is therefore my humble opinion that if we look at everything from the view of others, then there is no winning or losing but the opportunity to do things differently to achieve something more or even to do something less for others to achieve their goals.
Let our egos down and let others have the last words and we will have more inner peace, A whole new world of Harmony and peace.
But let us not go into the "don't care mode" for that will kill our soul and we become living dead.