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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: WoselTenzin on July 04, 2011, 04:27:45 AM

Title: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: WoselTenzin on July 04, 2011, 04:27:45 AM
An excerpt from Advice on Guru Devotion by Kyabje Lama Zopa (Source : http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=340)

Sentient beings in reality are empty, but they are not aware of it. They believe 100 per cent that they exist from their own side, because this appears to their hallucinating mind. They suffer so much due to this ignorance. It is like taking drugs, their minds are completely hallucinating, possessed by ignorance, and all their views become hallucinations. Whatever object appears is a hallucination, which in reality does not exist.

This is the basic suffering, believing in a total hallucination, believing that it is true. Then, on the basis of this, anger, attachment, pride, the six root delusions, the 37 secondary delusions, and all other delusions arise. This is the fundamental suffering. Out of that beings create negative karma and problems. Their lives are trapped in many big piles of hallucinations.


Being aware that we are empty does not happen overnight.  In fact it is not going to happen easily as understanding emptiness requires major purification of negative karma and a huge stock of merits and blessings. Once we have realised emptiness, we will release ourselves from the multitude sufferings of samsara.  We can still take rebirth in samsara and be in samsara but samsara will not be in us.  That will be the permanent end to all our sufferings.

Since everyone wants happiness and to be free from suffering, understanding emptiness should be a very appealing goal. In any case, realising the correct view of emptiness is one of the prerequisite to achieve full enlightenment which should be our goal anyways if we are serious Dharma practitioners.

So are we doing anything to achieve this goal or have we even started? 
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: triesa on July 04, 2011, 05:21:33 AM
An excerpt from Advice on Guru Devotion by Kyabje Lama Zopa (Source : [url]http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=340[/url])

Sentient beings in reality are empty, but they are not aware of it. They believe 100 per cent that they exist from their own side, because this appears to their hallucinating mind. They suffer so much due to this ignorance. It is like taking drugs, their minds are completely hallucinating, possessed by ignorance, and all their views become hallucinations. Whatever object appears is a hallucination, which in reality does not exist.

 






It looks like we are living in "Alice in Wonderland", samsara is all but a big dream, or better put in this way, a nightmare to many.



Once we have realised emptiness, we will release ourselves from the multitude sufferings of samsara.  We can still take rebirth in samsara and be in samsara but samsara will not be in us.  That will be the permanent end to all our sufferings.
 



Wonder what it is really like of being in samsara but samsara not in us......are we like dead zombies without emotions and desires? Or are we not attached to any of these?
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: samayakeeper on July 06, 2011, 05:26:10 AM
To read and understand emptiness isn't hard but to realize it is the ultimate goal. I am working to purify my uncountable negative karma so as to gain some merit to support my spiritual practice. I do my best not to create more heavy karma. I guess I can't stop creating karma for now. Even when I breathe, sleep and even being alive create negative karma.

For now, at my level, that's the best I can do. Follow what my Lama's words of wisdom and put them into practice. When I have obstacles, I make tea offering to Lord Shugden. It really, really helps.
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: Big Uncle on July 14, 2011, 12:23:03 AM
I agree with Kyabje Lama Zopa Rinpoche. Our whole existence is dependent upon causes and conditions that are illusory. However, it would take tremendous amounts of merits to realize that and I think many of us don't have that so we are stuck. Some of us intellectually know that but they can't put that intellectual understanding into practice. Purification practices is one the most potent way to help this, and if it is done towards a Buddha, merits would be accrued and we have both. Hence, Lama Tsongkhapa did tremendous amounts of purification practices to amassed merits in order for his realisation of Madhyamika (right view of Emptiness).
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: WoselTenzin on July 14, 2011, 05:36:58 AM
It is amazing that even a superficial understanding of emptiness can give one tremendous peace of mind.  Suddenly all the anger, unhappiness and dissatisfaction can melt away because we understand that we are actually holding on to something that does not exist in the way we see it, that is ourselves and everything around as fixed and unchanging entities.

It may be a split second preview into this realization that does not last, but a glimpse into it can give us a taste of what it means to be free of suffering. 
 
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: KhedrubGyatso on November 16, 2011, 02:58:43 AM
Thank you WT, for reproducing article on Emptiness here.
We must be careful not to think of samsara as separate from us. Samsara is us . What we label ourselves as ' I ' is a composition of physical body, feelings, perception, mental factors, consciousness. Because these aggregates are contaminated , we have to suffer. The contaminants are due to the 3 root delusions of ignorance , greed and hatred, the first being the basis of the other two. Due to ignorance we mistake objects to have substantiality  when in fact they do not ( empty of inherent existence ). From this wrong view we develop attachment and anger.If we can see everything is like our dreams , we would not chase after them. Our self cherishing mind arises from thinking we are our ego entity and therefore more important than others. From this selfish mind, all other delusions are triggered and bringing the result of suffering from negative actions which follow.
I hope this way of understanding emptiness is helpful.
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: hope rainbow on November 16, 2011, 07:12:45 AM
Thank you WT, for reproducing article on Emptiness here.

We must be careful not to think of samsara as separate from us.
Samsara is us .
What we label ourselves as ' I ' is a composition of physical body, feelings, perception, mental factors, consciousness.
Because these aggregates are contaminated , we have to suffer.
The contaminants are due to the 3 root delusions of ignorance , greed and hatred, the first being the basis of the other two.
Due to ignorance we mistake objects to have substantiality  when in fact they do not ( empty of inherent existence ). From this wrong view we develop attachment and anger.

If we can see everything is like our dreams , we would not chase after them.
Our self cherishing mind arises from thinking we are our ego entity and therefore more important than others.
From this selfish mind, all other delusions are triggered and bringing the result of suffering from negative actions which follow.

I hope this way of understanding emptiness is helpful.

Thank you Khedrub Gyatso.
I find your post logical, concise and clear.

From reading it:
"samsara = me" means that that samsara is not a "world" in which I am trapped and that I am fighting with, it is a view of my mind that I need to correct.
Right?
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: dondrup on November 17, 2011, 07:21:06 PM

From reading it:
"samsara = me" means that that samsara is not a "world" in which I am trapped and that I am fighting with, it is a view of my mind that I need to correct.
Right?

Khedrub Gyatso had explained samsara as our contaminated aggregates as the hell beings, hungry spirits, animals, human beings, demi-gods, and gods. These arise due to the karma that cause rebirth in those realms of existence. These realms of existence are the “world” that we live in.

Samsara is also known as the cyclic existence or uninterrupted rebirth without freedom or control.

Samsara is characterized by suffering and dissatisfaction.

Due to our ignorance of the nature of phenomena, we grasp at our existence ‘I’ and the phenomena around us as inherently existing.  We perceive samsara as inherently existing too!  We need to eradicate the incorrect view that all phenomena exist inherently.

A complete realisation of emptiness will liberate us from samsara and lead us to full enlightenment. Initially if we had an intellectual understanding of emptiness, it can lessen some of our suffering and dissatisfaction. However emptiness is a profound subject that is not easy to understand or realise.  We should purify as much as we possibly can our negative karma, accumulate vast amount of merit, and meditate on emptiness constantly in order to gain understanding and eventual realisation of emptiness.
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: hope rainbow on November 20, 2011, 02:30:17 PM

From reading it:
"samsara = me" means that that samsara is not a "world" in which I am trapped and that I am fighting with, it is a view of my mind that I need to correct.
Right?

Khedrub Gyatso had explained samsara as our contaminated aggregates as the hell beings, hungry spirits, animals, human beings, demi-gods, and gods. These arise due to the karma that cause rebirth in those realms of existence. These realms of existence are the “world” that we live in.

Samsara is also known as the cyclic existence or uninterrupted rebirth without freedom or control.

Samsara is characterized by suffering and dissatisfaction.

Due to our ignorance of the nature of phenomena, we grasp at our existence ‘I’ and the phenomena around us as inherently existing.  We perceive samsara as inherently existing too!  We need to eradicate the incorrect view that all phenomena exist inherently.

A complete realisation of emptiness will liberate us from samsara and lead us to full enlightenment. Initially if we had an intellectual understanding of emptiness, it can lessen some of our suffering and dissatisfaction. However emptiness is a profound subject that is not easy to understand or realise.  We should purify as much as we possibly can our negative karma, accumulate vast amount of merit, and meditate on emptiness constantly in order to gain understanding and eventual realisation of emptiness.

Thank you Dondrup.
I have a question: if I get out of samsara, does samsara still exist?
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: vajrastorm on November 21, 2011, 12:59:51 AM
HR had asked, if samsara still exists if I get out of it. Yes , samsara will continue to exist as long as sentient beings continue to be entangled in the web of deceptive pleasures of samsara and not recognize that contaminated happiness is essentially suffering. What we enjoy as a pleasure , for instance, taking a holiday, has the seeds of unhappiness. For one thing it is fleeting and for another, if we have a surfeit of a pleasurable thing, it becomes boring and discontent  and unhappiness sets in again.

However, we continue to be deceived by even the momentary  'pleasures' of samsara and see it as happiness. When we become discontented with one type of pleasure , we go chasing after another and so on endlessly. Hence how can we then break out of samsara unless we see through the deception and recognize true suffering and its origin? Hence , though now and again a being recognizes that what they experience in samsara is nothing but suffering and then develops a yearning to be free of samsara, most of the time beings prefer to stay in samsara and continue to enjoy its deceptive pleasures. So samsara will always be there until all beings accept, realize and practice Lord Buddha's Four Noble Truths and overcome the three poisons of ignorance, attachment and aversion.
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: hope rainbow on November 22, 2011, 01:08:47 PM
HR had asked, if samsara still exists if I get out of it. Yes , samsara will continue to exist as long as sentient beings continue to be entangled in the web of deceptive pleasures of samsara and not recognize that contaminated happiness is essentially suffering. What we enjoy as a pleasure , for instance, taking a holiday, has the seeds of unhappiness. For one thing it is fleeting and for another, if we have a surfeit of a pleasurable thing, it becomes boring and discontent  and unhappiness sets in again.

However, we continue to be deceived by even the momentary  'pleasures' of samsara and see it as happiness. When we become discontented with one type of pleasure , we go chasing after another and so on endlessly. Hence how can we then break out of samsara unless we see through the deception and recognize true suffering and its origin? Hence , though now and again a being recognizes that what they experience in samsara is nothing but suffering and then develops a yearning to be free of samsara, most of the time beings prefer to stay in samsara and continue to enjoy its deceptive pleasures. So samsara will always be there until all beings accept, realize and practice Lord Buddha's Four Noble Truths and overcome the three poisons of ignorance, attachment and aversion.

Thank you VS.

So when I get out of samsara, samsara may not exist in my realm of experience for myself, but it still exists as a particular realm of experience (of suffering) for every sentient being. Right?
Thus, it still exist for every sentient being.

So, let's imagine that samsara has ceased for me, and I see other beings entangled into samsara by the power of their karma and delusions.

But then... I heard before that when one becomes enlightened one sees everyone as a Buddha?
Is this correct?

Would that mean that enlightened beings see everyone, not as Buddhas, but at least as potential Buddhas?
And therefore pull these beings into their true nature?

Thanks for this debate.
HR
 
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: hope rainbow on November 22, 2011, 03:29:41 PM
An excerpt from Advice on Guru Devotion by Kyabje Lama Zopa (Source : [url]http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=340[/url] ([url]http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=340[/url]))

Being aware that we are empty does not happen overnight. 
In fact it is not going to happen easily as understanding emptiness requires major purification of negative karma and a huge stock of merits and blessings.
Once we have realised emptiness, we will release ourselves from the multitude sufferings of samsara. 
We can still take rebirth in samsara and be in samsara but samsara will not be in us. 



I recently heard this allegory which I found interesting:

Let's imagine one magician showing a rock to an audience, then let's imagine this is really magic right, so the magician uses some magic dust that he blows in the air and that falls on everyone's head making them see a duck where there is only a rock.
The magician has also received dust on his head and thus also sees a duck, and no more a rock.
Now, let's imagine somebody new arrives that did not get any magic dust on his head, what does he see? A rock of course.
What does the audience see? A duck.
What does the magician see? A duck also, but the difference is this: he knows that it is not a duck, he knows it is an illusion.
The magician sees the duck but he knows it is not real, he has not forgotten of its illusory nature.

This is like an allegory for an enlightened being that can see samsara yet does not fall for it, being in samsara though samsara is not in him.
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: dondrup on November 22, 2011, 08:51:19 PM

Thank you Dondrup.
I have a question: if I get out of samsara, does samsara still exist?

Samsara continues if the causes and conditions for its existence remain. Samsara ceases when the causes and conditions that support its existence are no longer applicable.  If you are out of samsara, samsara does not exist anymore for you because you had exhausted or purified all the karma to be in samsara. You will not experience samsara.
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: dondrup on November 22, 2011, 08:59:52 PM

But then... I heard before that when one becomes enlightened one sees everyone as a Buddha?
Is this correct?


In the Highest Yoga Tantra for example, practitioners visualise every beings around them as pure beings e.g. the Buddhas. In Lamrim, it says that if we view our spiritual guide as a Buddha, we receive the blessing of a Buddha. 

Buddhas have completely pure view of all sentient beings and hence Buddhas need not perceive everyone as a Buddha. 

Buddhas perceive directly other Buddhas.  Buddhas view all sentient beings as having the potential – Buddha Nature – to become fully enlightened. 
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: Tenzin K on November 26, 2011, 10:53:43 AM
Thanks for all of your sharing above.
It's really beneficially for me.

Everything in Samsara is our own perception.
Our negative quality , react negatively towards our perception making us even more belief in our perception and eventually lead us to more suffering.

Sounds like we are actually living in a world of delusion, which called Samsara.
Indeed we are if we think we will be happy for all the attachment we chase.

To realize this is not easy as this is how most of the people perceive.
We really need a lot of purification to understand and realize it.

We are lucky because we have a Guru that always help us in anyway to purify our negative karma and tirelessly teach us the right method to realize emptiness.

Through the Guru kindness giving us one of the greatest protector practice, Lord Shugden to further help us to clear our obstacle, to further help us to get closer to realize truth of life.

Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: diamond girl on November 27, 2011, 02:32:23 PM
It is amazing that even a superficial understanding of emptiness can give one tremendous peace of mind.  Suddenly all the anger, unhappiness and dissatisfaction can melt away because we understand that we are actually holding on to something that does not exist in the way we see it, that is ourselves and everything around as fixed and unchanging entities.

It may be a split second preview into this realization that does not last, but a glimpse into it can give us a taste of what it means to be free of suffering.

This thread on emptiness impacts me more than other times when I read about emptiness. I believe one of the biggest delusions we have is on the subject matter of relationships. Of course wealth too ranks pretty high but when it comes to wealth and the greed for it, the results can be measured. One million, two, etc. but with relationships all the negative emotions associated with it brings so much suffering - pain and tears, and it cannot be measured, it just feels horrible. I find that it is in relationships where negative emotions and thoughts are generated in abundance and causes bad actions and speech. Thus, opens the floodgates for negative karma!

So what is said in WT above that just understanding emptiness and how it will relieve us of suffering is peaceful. Whenever I find myself experiencing the emotions of anger, jealousy and hurt I repeat to myself like a mantra - I will let go, then I push myself more and affirm to myself "I Let Go". It sounds like a play of words but it affirms to me the moment of now, and not a future tense of "will" but NOW I Let Go. I guess this is my samsaric way of creating the moment of emptiness with hopes that if I repeat it enough I let go of the attachments to the very samsara nature of relationships.

I understand that relationships will happen and exist but to be happy in one, I need to let go of the attachments and delusions I have cultivated through the years about what relationships should be. I may not be at the state of emptiness bliss but I know for sure that by practising it moment to moment creates the momentary relieve of suffering which in time will be a complete practice and transformation.
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: dsdisciple on December 12, 2011, 09:51:27 AM
I recently came across this quote from The Adornment of the Middle Way Shantarakshita's commentary of Madhyamalankara with commentary by Jamgon Mipham.

"The great lama of Sakya, Drakpa Gyaltsen, received a pith instruction from Manjushri known as Separating from the Four Clingings. This contains the statement: "If their is clinging their is no view."
Sakya Pandita, the mighty scholar of the Land of Snow, has said: "If you ask me what is acceptable as a definition of the two truths, the easiest way for anyone to understand it is to see the appearance aspect as relative, the emptiness aspect as ultimate, and their union as their nondifferentiation."

Establish view...Unifying means and wisdom...meditate on them and bring them into experience...this constitutes the path.

xox
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: hope rainbow on December 12, 2011, 04:55:11 PM
I recently came across this quote from The Adornment of the Middle Way Shantarakshita's commentary of Madhyamalankara with commentary by Jamgon Mipham.

"The great lama of Sakya, Drakpa Gyaltsen, received a pith instruction from Manjushri known as Separating from the Four Clingings. This contains the statement: "If their is clinging their is no view."
Sakya Pandita, the mighty scholar of the Land of Snow, has said:

"If you ask me what is acceptable as a definition of the two truths, the easiest way for anyone to understand it is to see
-the appearance aspect as relative,
-the emptiness aspect as ultimate,
-and their union as their nondifferentiation." (1)

Establish view...Unifying means and wisdom...meditate on them and bring them into experience...this constitutes the path.

xox

(1)
Neither one, nor two.
Someone told me this a while ago.
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: KhedrubGyatso on December 13, 2011, 03:45:22 AM
Dear HR,

All realized masters have their own way of expressing their realizations.
'The union of  appearance and emptiness  is their non differentiation ' by Sakya Pandita I believe is another way to describe the 4 profundities as described  in the more familiar way in Heart Sutra.

Form is Empty
Emptiness is Form
Form is not apart from Emptiness
Emptiness is not apart from Form.
( Form here has same meaning  as appearance )
Non differentiation means non dual.
You are right it means neither one nor two ( both ). But what is it alluding to?
Two in one !!  This is true understanding of Nagarjuna's middle way philosophy which establishes the correct view of emptiness.
Frankly, it is more beneficial for us to focus on accumulating merit, and purifying our negativities than trying to figure out the above although it is stated in Lamrim that even if we hear the word emptiness without real understanding it will still have power to shake samsara.
Title: Re: Understanding Emptiness - The Method to End All Our Sufferings
Post by: dsdisciple on December 13, 2011, 12:09:34 PM
Dear HR and KG,

Thank you for both your input...your are both correct in your points of view but would like to point out that for some persons...we should not discount any dharma realizations presented in the guise and formats of ANY realized masters.

However they are interpreted from one person to the next may be differ due to the result of karma and merit opening. Do we discount one practice to have precedence over another?

For example if one person is attracted to dharma presented in poetry/ prose format to have more impact in their mindstream (to hook them into going further in their dharma practice) as opposed to a traditional Lamrim recitation approach, both approaches are valid and can benefit.

Or alternatively? a Thangkha can have as much meaning in a visual format than reading a book...or our very own modern example of  DS in comic form explaining the story of an enlightened protector.

I am not saying that one method is better than the other or that one should only practice one way? I think that this is our dualistic mind accepting or not accepting...Their are very few masters that can achieve this practice...but their are exceptions.

One very holy monk from Gaden Shartse Gen Nyima Rinpoche spent his entire life focusing on emptiness and yidam practice. HHDL actually requested him to spend the remainder of his life in the monastery as an example to the monks of Gaden to show the validity of his practice.

I guess if you ask the question why some prayers have real power (to shake samsara) and benefit and protect and others do not? Gen Nyima was an example of this, people would come far and wide to receive his blessings and prayers. He was constantly moving his retreat place due to the constant requests of lay people.

Lastly, I would like to add that I am new to the forum? and trying to respectfully contribute and learn as much as I can without offending anyone (HR)?

KG I love your thinking...Nagajuna's view of emptiness...nice.  My intention was to show that for some of us representations in this form can have a alot of meaning / right or wrong is not the issue maybe just maybe this is someone's guru and reading what he said or seeing a picture(eg.holy masters presented on this site)  is the catalyst for this person finding the dharma finding out more about this holy master Sakya Pandita..Drakpa Gyaltsen.

Please I humbly request that if we want more and more qualified persons to participate on this forum (that does not mean myself) we should show respect to all dharma in all its forms and with equanimity to all. I would never knowingly disrespect any holy master or method they present from their lineage, even HHDL even though at present we fall in different camps. I have received and learnt a great deal of many things from him in the past and this has benefited me personally.

Is the representation of all Dharma from holy masters a synthesis of the 3 jewels? practice and realization? the result of many purification practices and aspirational prayers, study and guidance from their guru's to understand the dharma and gift this knowledge to others...presenting in their own unique way to reach people who would not otherwise find/engage in dharma practice.

xox