dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zach on March 19, 2011, 03:11:29 PM
-
Dear friends I was wondering if anyone could tell me the difference between southern Lamrim and the other version ? what are the specifics of the difference :)
-
You can read the following student's notes on a lamrim teaching of Geshe Jinpa Sonam that has as a subject:
Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand: A Concise Discourse on the Path to Enlightenment
by Pabongka Rinpoche
http://www.indianabuddhist.org/Liberation_StudentsNotes7.htm
http://www.indianabuddhist.org/Liberation_StudentsNotes8.html
-
:-\ Oops, the first link should be:
http://www.indianabuddhist.org/Liberation_StudentsNotes7.html
-
If you understand French, you will find here a "Southern Lamrim" book:
http://anecdotesbouddhistes.blogspot.com/2008/03/le-lamrim-de-la-ligne-du-sud.html
-
This French "Southern Lamrim" book was translated by a student of Dagpo Rinpoche.
Dagpo Rinpoche is living in France since a long time, I think he came there in the 1960's
if not even earlier.
The Dagpo lineage is of major importance; you can read more about it and the Southern Lineage here:
http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/among-shugden-texts-1800a.html
-
Dagpo Rinpoche was recognized as the reincarnation of Dagpo Jampel Lhundrub who was one of Pabongkha Rinpoche’s gurus...
-
Thanks heartspoon that was very helpful my friend ! :)
-
Since Dagpo Jamphel Lhundrup Rinpoche was the one who taught the Lamrim to Pabongka Rinpoche, the Dagpo lineage is very important indeed.
Re the southern lamrim tradition, I especially liked the story of how HH the 13th Dalai Lama tried to question the source of the southern Lamrim and put Pabongka Rinpoche down. However, Pabongka Rinpoche explained everything via a letter to the 13th Dalai Lama, and made references backed up by scriptural sources, which finally convinced the 13th Dalai Lama of the validity of the southern lamrim tradition.
-
Yes I remember reading that from HH Pabongkha Rinpoche's biography online here, let me copy it here so that everyone can have a read about the incident. Thank you Wisdombeing for a great reminder about the incomparable HH Pabongkha Rinpoche :).
I personally think it was the 13th Dalai Lama's way to show the greatness of Pabongkha Rinpoche to others by "challenging" Pabongkha Rinpoche in that way. You should read the one about HH the 13th Dalai Lama asking Pabongkha Rinpoche to make rain. I said this because the 13th Dalai Lama requested Kyabje Pabongka to give the yearly Lamrim teachings in 1925 (usually it's the Gaden Tripa who teaches and the teachings is for 7 days), and that year, it went on for 11 days ;D!
From His Holiness Pabongka Rinpoche’s Biography on dorjeshugden.com
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3965 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3965)
There was one incident in which Pabongka was summoned by His Holiness to prove that his Southern Lamrim Tradition called, Shargyu, was genuine. Somehow this tradition was not popular in Tibet at that time, and very little was known about it. Therefore, one could not find much proof of its source. It was not written anywhere in the regular texts studied in the monasteries. There were even talks amongst learned scholars of Pabongka introducing a strange system of a Southern tradition that he learnt from an old monk in some village in a corner of Tibet. Hence, people were trying to refute the authenticity of this Southern style Lamrim. In this respect, His Holiness had to do something to intervene and asked Pabongka to provide solid evidence.
The Southern Lamrim tradition was what Pabongka has studied under Dagpo Rinpoche. Being fiercely devoted to his Root Guru, Pabongka would not tolerate anyone disparaging his Guru’s name or even remotely implying that his Guru was wrong in any way. So, Pabongka had to send a letter in reply to the Thirteenth Dalai Lama’s questions.
At first, Pabongka did not think it was so serious. However, upon hearing that without concrete proof, he would have to declare that his newly introduced Southern Lamrim tradition to be a fraud and no one would be allowed to practice it, he was unwilling to risk any injury to his Guru’s name. So, Pabongka thought for a while and then said to the Manager of his labrang, “Under these circumstances, I shall reply. I shall dictate and you go ahead and take notes”.
Then Pabongka quoted, “The Buddha said in this sutra and that sutra and in the collected works of the Buddha in volume such and such this is written and right at this moment Your Holiness is sitting in your room and if you look at your back in the third shelf, open that book and read on page 146 at the back side the 6th line, there it says this, this and then, if you look at your left side, on the second shelf, the second volume number, this and this, pull that book out and there it says this, this, this….”
Pabongka continued, “This is the proof from the Kanjur and if you read this book by Asanga which is available in Your Holiness’s room on such and such a shelf in the outer volume whose colour is this, and the inner book is this, and then, if you look at line this, line that, page number this and this, you will find it. And from the Tibetan tradition, look in the works of your late Master, Purchog Jampa Rinpoche, in volume number four of his collected works, which is in Your Holiness’s bedroom on such and such a shelf and the colour of the cloth is this and the page number is that.”
Pabongka Rinpoche was so precise and confident in pointing out the details for His Holiness to find every piece of evidence to support his Southern Lamrim tradition. This letter was then given to His Holiness’s Chamberlain to be delivered into the hands of His Holiness.
When the Thirteenth Dalai Lama read it, he asked his Chamberlain to take out the exact books and volumes as described by Pabongka in the letter. Everything was proved right. Then His Holiness asked his Chamberlain, “Did you know and tell him I would be in this room?” The Chamberlain answered, “No.” His Holiness did not comment any further.
-
Vajraprotector,
You really give it your all when you post. Some people post information only. Some just questons only and some just very focussed on certain subjects. But you really go out of your way to post dharma information for the benefit of all of us here. Much appreciations.
-
I agree with Thaimonk. Those who are able to give it their all are benefitting many with this type of Dharma information.
Unfortunately, due to lack of time, I am one of those who can only post every so often.
Thanks everyone for youe efforts. Many people I know appreciate the updates, even if they are not able to post in this forum.
-
The Southern Lamrim tradition as passed through Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche is based on combining The Swift Path and two lineages of Manjushri's Own Words. The Swift Path is a commentary composed by Panchen Lama Lobsang Yeshe based on the root text- The Easy Path, which was composed by Panchen Lama Lobsang Chokyi Gyeltsen. Manjushri's Own Words is also a Lamrim text composed by the Great Fifth Dalai Lama. This information is extracted from Liberation in The Palm of Your Hands, The Preliminaries Chapter: Day One, Page 40-41.
-
The Southern Lamrim tradition as passed through Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche is based on combining The Swift Path and two lineages of Manjushri's Own Words. The Swift Path is a commentary composed by Panchen Lama Lobsang Yeshe based on the root text- The Easy Path, which was composed by Panchen Lama Lobsang Chokyi Gyeltsen. Manjushri's Own Words is also a Lamrim text composed by the Great Fifth Dalai Lama. This information is extracted from Liberation in The Palm of Your Hands, The Preliminaries Chapter: Day One, Page 40-41.
-
The Southern Lamrim tradition as passed through Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche is based on combining The Swift Path and two lineages of Manjushri's Own Words. The Swift Path is a commentary composed by Panchen Lama Lobsang Yeshe based on the root text- The Easy Path, which was composed by Panchen Lama Lobsang Chokyi Gyeltsen. Manjushri's Own Words is also a Lamrim text composed by the Great Fifth Dalai Lama. This information is extracted from Liberation in The Palm of Your Hands, The Preliminaries Chapter: Day One, Page 40-41.
No. It isn't like that...
-
Dear Heartspoon, If it is not like that as you have written. Then what it is like? Care to elaborate for the rest of us here so that we can learn too?
Thank you in advance.
-
Dear Heartspoon, If it is not like that as you have written. Then what it is like? Care to elaborate for the rest of us here so that we can learn too?
Thank you in advance.
"Thus Tsongkhapa's Three Lamrim works - the Great Stages of the Path, the Shorter Stages of the Path and his Hymn of Spiritual Experience - the four explicit instructions just mentionned and Dakpo Ngawang Drakpa's Quintessence of Excellent Speech collectively make up the "eight great Lamrim instructions".
Since none of these works is a direct commentary of any other, it is necessary to receive the lineage teachings for each one separately. In particular, there are two distinct bodies of instruction associated with Manjugosha's Oral Instruction: the more extensive teachings of the Central Lineage and the somewhat abbreviated ones from of the Southern Lineage. Named for the region from which the holders of the respective lineages first originated, these instructions mus also be received separately."
Liberation in Our Hands - part one - p. 24
"Here the teachings will be presented in the form of a practical instruction. To accomodate those who must travel elsewhere and thus are not fortunate enough to receive teachings more than once or twice, they will consist of a combined explanation of these texts: the Quick Path; Manjugosha's Oral Instruction, with both its extensive and abbreviated lineages: and, later on, during the topic of the equality and exchange of oneself and others, the Seven-Point Instruction on Mind Training."
Liberation in Our Hands - part one - p. 25
-
Pabongka Rinpoche speaking of the Southern Lineage:
"It has its own body of oral instruction- including visualizations for for refuge object, merit field, bathhouse and so forth - which is different from that of the Central Lineage."
-
Thus, it is wrong to write the following assertion:
"The Southern Lamrim tradition as passed through Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche is based on combining The Swift Path and two lineages of Manjushri's Own Words."
-
Pabongka Rinpoche speaking of the Southern Lineage:
"It has its own body of oral instruction- including visualizations for for refuge object, merit field, bathhouse and so forth - which is different from that of the Central Lineage."
Dear Heartspoon,
Thank you for pointing that out but what does your statement mean?
That Southern Lamrim lineage is not based on the Quick Path and Manjushri's Own Words as I had stated or its instructions on visualization and so forth as you had mentioned is different? Or Southern Lamrim tradition is based on an oral instructions not found in the Liberation in the Palm of Your Hands?
I am a little confused because I thought Liberation in the Palm of Your Hands is the culmination of the Southern Lamrim tradition.
Do elaborate on this and thank you ahead of time.
-
"Liberation In Our Hands" is a transcript of oral teachings on the Lamrim by Pabongka Rinpoche.
As it is a practical instruction, Pabongka Rinpoche bases the instruction on this own personal experience,
presenting to his students what they can best apply to their own mental development.
The instructions themselves relate to three separate Lamrim works.
The way you wrote about it I thought you meant that:
"Liberation In Our Hands" is a transcript of oral teachings on the Southern Lamrim by Pabongka Rinpoche.
The instructions themselves relate to the Southern Lamrim as passed through Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche which is based on combining The Swift Path and two lineages of Manjushri's Own Words.
And this would be a wrong understanding, I think.
-
Vajraprotector,
You really give it your all when you post. Some people post information only. Some just questons only and some just very focussed on certain subjects. But you really go out of your way to post dharma information for the benefit of all of us here. Much appreciations.
Dear Thaimonk and forum friends,
Thank you for your compliments :-[. I am here in this forum because I have learnt a lot, and still learning from the postings, especially sharing from TK, Big Uncle and many more and I do wish to do the same for others I hope. I'm just a bookworm 8). I also love Tenzin Sungrab’s update straight from the monastery – very inspiring to get news about the precious DS sangha.
Anyway back to the topic, I've read the links by Heartspoon and those who are interested about the lineage and how it was passed can read more from page 53 onwards in Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand.
Pg 53: "Here is a little on how the Southern Lineage of Manjushri's Own Words was passed on...."
On page 57 onwards it talks about the Swift Path lineage.
Having read about the lineage, I think Zach’s question is still not answered - What is the difference between southern Lamrim and the other version and what are the specifics of the difference ?
-
The Southern Lamrim is written in the form of a meditation on the whole path.
It does not have a didactic vocation and never details things.
It is conceived to serve as a support to the one who is meditating.
This one must dig and deepen by drawing upon his own knowledge,
as well as his own personal experience.
-
The Southern Lamrim is written in the form of a meditation on the whole path.
Does that mean, it is written down as a text?
So, all Lamrim texts and lineages will have the complete meditational topics as the original one from Atisha but the presentation of these topics would be different according to emphasis and to the meditational experience of the Lamas passing it down. I think that would be the difference - the presentation of the Lamrim meditational topics. Is that what you were saying, Heartspoon?
-
The Southern Lamrim is written in the form of a meditation on the whole path.
Does that mean, it is written down as a text?
There are instructions related to bodhicitta, shunyata and vipassana which are traditionally
not found in a written form. As the disciple must hear them directly from the master, they are
kept hidden separately.
-
Ok, so in the lineage of the Southern Lamrim, Dagpo Kelsang Khedrub received this lineage from Kelsang Tenzin, and Dagpo Kelsang Khedrub later passed it on to Dagpo Jampel Lhundrub, who in turn passed it on to Pabongkha Rinpoche.
I'm sure many of you are familiar with the famous story about Pabongkha Rinpoche, mentioned by Ribur Rinpoche: Dagpo Jampel Lhundrub taught Pabongkha Rinpoche a Lam-rim topic and then Pabongka Rinpoche would go away and meditate on it Later he would return to explain what he’d understood. If he had gained some realization, Dagpo Lama Rinpoche would teach him some more and Pabongka Rinpoche would go back and meditate on that. It went on like this for ten years. (Rilbur Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche: A Memoir quoted in Liberation in the palm of your hand: A concise discourse on the path to enlightenment (2006). Boston: Wisdom Publications, p. xiii)
So does that mean that Pabongkha Rinpoche was focusing on the meditation/practise according to the Southern Lamrim tradition during the years of the meditation?
-
Each day He trained in order to attain an union of His breathings whith the 84'000 teachings of Buddha.
Dharma, Guru, Buddha, Sangha...