dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zach on January 28, 2011, 09:28:34 PM
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Title says it all. Any news at all ? I heard about The filming for Lama micheals documentary lineage has production already started...what exactly is going on I can wait to watch it ! :)
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Zach the last I know is the video
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6717
Lama Michael visiting Shar gaden and Serpom for the shooting. The trailer for the documentary is so cool.
Can't wait to watch it too.
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I have been told that the Dorje Shugden movie, not related to the documentary by Lama Michael has been shelved temporarily. I know a couple people involved, and from what I gather the movie never got beyond the initial planing stage.
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Is there more sources that this movie has been shelved? What are the sources please? Any more information?
In the past we have received emails asking us why the group involved in the movie do not respond to emails and also offers of sponsorship. We were not able to answer.
Mana
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My only sources are 2 of the people that came here to Shar Gaden to work on the project. They told me that the project was shelved after consulting the oracle in Lumbini about the project. The oracle apparently told them to wait until the time was more favorable.
The project has not been abandoned, only shelved temporarily. I will see if I can get more information.
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My only sources are 2 of the people that came here to Shar Gaden to work on the project. They told me that the project was shelved after consulting the oracle in Lumbini about the project. The oracle apparently told them to wait until the time was more favorable.
The project has not been abandoned, only shelved temporarily. I will see if I can get more information.
Thank you for the information.
The oracles of Dorje Shugden are very accurate and beyond question.
Mana
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My only sources are 2 of the people that came here to Shar Gaden to work on the project. They told me that the project was shelved after consulting the oracle in Lumbini about the project. The oracle apparently told them to wait until the time was more favorable.
The project has not been abandoned, only shelved temporarily. I will see if I can get more information.
Hmmm okay Duke could you perhapes seek futher info ? As to anything the oracle specifically said regarding such ? :)
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how disappointing that the movie is delayed but i trust the oracle so i guess if the time isn't right, it isn't right.
The last i heard was that it was also very dangerous for the people involved in the movie - so they were keeping the group tight and small. I also asked them if they needed funding and they didn't respond. I saw that as a good thing though, in that they weren't greedy for money. My friend thought it was a bit weird that they didn't want donations though because every project needs finance. Oh well.
Duke - yes - do keep us posted....
cheers.
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I'm glad the WSS didn't have to consult an oracle before taking action against the Dalai Lama, otherwise perhaps the poor monks in India would be suffering more than they already are.
It's better to rely on wisdom than oracular pronouncements.
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Well the Dalai Lama went 'against' Trijang Rinpoche who practiced and encouraged Dorje Shugden.
Some of you criticize the oracle which Trijang Rinpoche created, consulted and encouraged.
Some of you and the Dalai Lama both criticize Trijang Rinpoches activities.
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Btw, it was Dorje Shugden through the oracle who advised and encouraged the formation of a seperate institution which have become Serpom and Shar Gaden. If it wasn't for the oracular pronouncements, the monks would be wandering the streets and the sufferings would be beyond what our comfort zones can imagine.
The oracle of Gaden was predicted and blessed by Zong Rinpoche. He is a student of Zong Ladrang and his name is Tenzin Choepel. He resides at Gaden Tensu Ling the centre of H.E. Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche in the USA.
The oracle in Taiwan was created, blessed and instituted by Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang (previous). The Oracle monk was a member of Bompra house now Serpom Monastery. His father was the official oracle of Sera Mey in Tibet.
The deities that takes trance of both Gaden and Sera oracle monks are KING DORJE SHUGDEN HIMSELF and Kache Marpo.
The wisdom of Dorje Shugden and Kache Marpo is beyond any of our wisdoms. If we do not have an opportunity to consult them, we do the best we can. If we can consult them, why not?
I would consult them anytime I can when my wisdom on an issue does not suffice. If you do not like the oracles created by Zong and Trijang Rinpoche, then don't say anything against them. They are the enlightened products of our lineage lamas.
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Dear Thaimonk,
i guess some people don't believe in the oracles just like they don't believe in the tulkus such as HH Trijang Rinpoche and HH Zong Rinpoche. I am trying to wrap my head around the concept that I believe my own wisdom is higher than anyone else's. It's not a case of lack of self-confidence or self-esteem, but i definitely know that i cannot trust my own judgment on spiritual matters.
Of course we make the best decisions we can with the information we have when we don't have access to someone with clairvoyance. However, should we have privileged access to an oracle who is not just anyone but who has been trained by a high Lama and proven over time to be accurate, and taking trance of none other than the Great King himself, then we should really be grateful rather than critical. I wish i had the karma to meet such a holy being! Can you imagine what it'd be like to be in Dorje Shugden's presence! Wow!
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I'm glad the WSS didn't have to consult an oracle before taking action against the Dalai Lama, otherwise perhaps the poor monks in India would be suffering more than they already are.
It's better to rely on wisdom than oracular pronouncements.
Why would friends attack my belief system that is upheld by our lineage lamas. Wss and NKT have radically different views about oracles (and tulkus) and you criticize it constantly instead of leaving it alone. I and they (WSS and NKT) are very different and I do not share their views. If they are trying to help our lineage, then why do you, a supporter of them, attack what is well establised in our lineage. If you do not agree, then your lineage and mine are different. I prescribe to Trijang Rinpoche's lineage which accept oracles and not criticize them with projected false results if we follow oracles. Shar Gaden is doing very well and they are following an oracle.
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I apologise if I caused offence, my post was somewhat harsh and uncalled for.
Both you and I have different views when it comes to oracles. I'm just aware that the Nechung oracle, for example has been part of the problem regarding Dorje Shugden. The Dalai Lama relies heavily on oracles, it seems, and this seems to have exacerbated his loss of faith in Dorje Shugden. I'm also aware that Buddha Shakyamuni and Buddha Vajradhara never taught reliance on oracles, but many people argue they never taught Dorje Shugden either so who am I to say whether this is a valid practice or not.
We are both Dorje Shugden practitioners and we follow different traditions, it's not right for me find fault with your beliefs, so once again please accept my apologies, I won't mention oracles again. Peace.
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I apologise if I caused offence, my post was somewhat harsh and uncalled for.
Both you and I have different views when it comes to oracles. I'm just aware that the Nechung oracle, for example has been part of the problem regarding Dorje Shugden. The Dalai Lama relies heavily on oracles, it seems, and this seems to have exacerbated his loss of faith in Dorje Shugden. I'm also aware that Buddha Shakyamuni and Buddha Vajradhara never taught reliance on oracles, but many people argue they never taught Dorje Shugden either so who am I to say whether this is a valid practice or not.
We are both Dorje Shugden practitioners and we follow different traditions, it's not right for me find fault with your beliefs, so once again please accept my apologies, I won't mention oracles again. Peace.
Dear Lineageholder,
Kyabje Zong Rinpoche mentioned many times that the Nechung oracle is unreliable. But he mentioned many times under his examination that the Dorje Shugden oracle of Gaden is very accurate. Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche both relied on the Dorje Shugden oracles completely. You can read up on Trijang Rinpoche's bio. Shar Gaden and the great lamas such as Dagom Rinpoche, Geshe Tendar, Gonsar Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Serpom Monastery, Zemey Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, Domo Geshe all trusted the Dorje Shugden oracles. One of the most famous and well known oracles of Dorje Shugden was in Domo Geshe Rinpoche's own Monastery in Tibet then India.
Just because Nechung is unreliable, does not mean it extends to Dorje Shugden oracles. Remember, Nechung was an unenlightened evil spirit tamed and still is mischievous. Dorje Shugden is a direct emanation of Manjushri. The beings taking trance in the oracle monks MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE. One is an evil spirit bound by oath and forced to 'help'. While Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being who takes trance of oracles from his immeasurable compassion.
I agree with you Nechung's pronouncements has greatly added to the ban and the strife millions of us experience because of the ban. I would never consult or trust Nechung Oracle. Never. But I would 100% trust the Dorje Shugden oracles because my lineage lamas trusts them.
I am so glad you are coming to terms that we have different belief systems. I appreciate this tremendously. I am so glad that you mention we belong to the same protector because you are right. You will have your tradition/lama and I will have mine. They are both not wrong, just a different approach. Your tradition do not accept oracles, tulkus, etc, mine does. Who is right? After all, we both pretty much believe what we believe because of our teachers. Both our teachers cannot be wrong although their methods differ tremendously. That is ok. We are the products of our lamas/traditions. So if you criticize what I believe, what would you like me to do? Say what my lama taught me is wrong? It would be the same for you.
What you have written here today has Geshe Kelsang's blessings coming through your mindstream. You are showing me how great his teachings are by your words and open attitude expressed here. You are writing with acceptance of our different beliefs and you are becoming ok with it. I commend you and thank you.
As spiritual 'children' of Dorje Shugden sharing the same lineage lamas, we have more in common and more to share than not. I will continue to post, write, ask re oracles, Dalai Lama, Tulkus, NKT/Geshe Kelsang, Dharamsala, etc, BUT IT IS NOT MEANT TO HURT YOU. Please do not take it as so.
I appreciate what you have wrote and I thank you.
Thaimonk
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I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful :)
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I work with software and programming and in programing you have either 0 or 1. there is no 0.5.
What I am driving at is if we trust our linage lamas of which so many are highly advanced with many incarnations, we belief them, their words their teachings etc, why don't we also trust the oracles they have set up for example the great Dromo Geshe Rinpoche who set up the Dungkar Oracle. Go all the way with it not to be selective based on our wisdom.
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I work with software and programming and in programing you have either 0 or 1. there is no 0.5.
What I am driving at is if we trust our linage lamas of which so many are highly advanced with many incarnations, we belief them, their words their teachings etc, why don't we also trust the oracles they have set up for example the great Dromo Geshe Rinpoche who set up the Dungkar Oracle. Go all the way with it not to be selective based on our wisdom.
What a good way of putting it: 0 or 1, no way or all the way!
It's true what you've written though. I read somewhere that there are many high lamas out there who have been recognized and have gotten the seal of approval (on the authenticity of their recognized reincarnation) from different protectors e.g. Dorje Shugden, through oracles. Is this true?
Here is a good (but very short) article on Choyang Kuten Lama being recognized as an oracle (http://www.kolumbus.fi/hemming.paroll/KutenLama02.html) - question, besides having one oracle recognizing another potential oracle, is there any other way that the oracle can be recognized? Can one choose to be one?
Btw, I heard that apparently when Nechung is taking trance in an oracle -- the oracles breath smells like alcohol!! This is despite the oracle not ever touching any spirits...odd.
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Based on the arguments presented here, i have come to have greater faith in the authentic oracles of Dorje Shugden. I think if it was good enough for Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, it must also be alright for me. Hence, it wouldn't be wise to put this sacred tradition down in any way even if we ourselves don't have faith in this tradition or we can't perceive its benefits.
I believe the oracle the makers of this film have consulted is an authentic oracle of Dorje Shugden and so Dorje Shugden must have seen that it would indeed be beneficial but now is not the time yet. How humble and skillful! If it was any other haughty deity, he would want the film that promotes the deity be made quickly so he gets more worshippers and offerings and temples built. It must have been the advice of Dorje Shugden himself.
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I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful :)
Hi Zach
It's interesting that you say that oracles are alien to the west because in London, consulting mediums and tarot card readers is really quite common. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wants to distinguish between the medium/tarot card consulting public and genuine Dharma seekers.
I'm glad you agree that there is nothing wrong with seeking advice from the Great King himself. I hear that his advice is very accurate and sometimes appear surprising and illogical, but if you follow his advice with faith, the logic will surface later.
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I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful :)
Hi Zach
It's interesting that you say that oracles are alien to the west because in London, consulting mediums and tarot card readers is really quite common. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wants to distinguish between the medium/tarot card consulting public and genuine Dharma seekers.
I'm glad you agree that there is nothing wrong with seeking advice from the Great King himself. I hear that his advice is very accurate and sometimes appear surprising and illogical, but if you follow his advice with faith, the logic will surface later.
Having you palms read by the local Gypsy is one thing seeing the Dorje shugden oracle go through the ritual and then go into trance is another ;D
Do remember friend that in the western culture while there may be mediums and so on these are not really accepted as the norm and are generally considered to be spirits and so on, If people come to a Dharma centre for instance knowing little and they witness the Great king go into trance via his oracle they may well develop harmful misunderstandings of what Dharma is about mistaking it for backward ritualism and spirit worship. Now there is certainly nothing wrong with Dharma oracles they bring enlightened beings a bit closer to us for advise and I throughly rejoice in those that wish to keep this tradition going as its very helpful but for the NKT it is not the presentation Geshe-la wishes to give people but something a bit more simple and relatable to. Because we do not practise this oracle tradition it doesnt mean we should disrespect it or disparge those whom rely upon it as it is completely valid but as I said its not the presentation that the NKT is seeking to present.
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Having you palms read by the local Gypsy is one thing seeing the Dorje shugden oracle go through the ritual and then go into trance is another ;D
Do remember friend that in the western culture while there may be mediums and so on these are not really accepted as the norm and are generally considered to be spirits and so on, If people come to a Dharma centre for instance knowing little and they witness the Great king go into trance via his oracle they may well develop harmful misunderstandings of what Dharma is about mistaking it for backward ritualism and spirit worship. Now there is certainly nothing wrong with Dharma oracles they bring enlightened beings a bit closer to us for advise and I throughly rejoice in those that wish to keep this tradition going as its very helpful but for the NKT it is not the presentation Geshe-la wishes to give people but something a bit more simple and relatable to. Because we do not practise this oracle tradition it doesnt mean we should disrespect it or disparge those whom rely upon it as it is completely valid but as I said its not the presentation that the NKT is seeking to present.
Hi Zach,
I get what you're saying - re Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wishing to give people something simple and easy to relate to. I have no issue with that. Likewise with the Tulku issue, I am sure he makes his stand so that there is no need to debate which incarnation is real etc. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is a very wise monk and I am sure he will do everything he can to bring Dharma to others and his students should follow everything he says.
I must say that I like the way the forum is going these days - there is respect for different points of views... such a welcome respite and i think that any new person coming here would have a more positive view of Dorje Shugden practitioners.
Cheers!
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I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful :)
Hi Zach
It's interesting that you say that oracles are alien to the west because in London, consulting mediums and tarot card readers is really quite common. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wants to distinguish between the medium/tarot card consulting public and genuine Dharma seekers.
I'm glad you agree that there is nothing wrong with seeking advice from the Great King himself. I hear that his advice is very accurate and sometimes appear surprising and illogical, but if you follow his advice with faith, the logic will surface later.
Having you palms read by the local Gypsy is one thing seeing the Dorje shugden oracle go through the ritual and then go into trance is another ;D
Do remember friend that in the western culture while there may be mediums and so on these are not really accepted as the norm and are generally considered to be spirits and so on, If people come to a Dharma centre for instance knowing little and they witness the Great king go into trance via his oracle they may well develop harmful misunderstandings of what Dharma is about mistaking it for backward ritualism and spirit worship. Now there is certainly nothing wrong with Dharma oracles they bring enlightened beings a bit closer to us for advise and I throughly rejoice in those that wish to keep this tradition going as its very helpful but for the NKT it is not the presentation Geshe-la wishes to give people but something a bit more simple and relatable to. Because we do not practise this oracle tradition it doesnt mean we should disrespect it or disparge those whom rely upon it as it is completely valid but as I said its not the presentation that the NKT is seeking to present.
Dear zach, please don't be so Western-centric. Not everything revolves around our Westerners and what we think. On the other side of the coin, NKT could be losing out on a tradition as practiced by our lineage lamas.
In the east, this tradition is alive, valuable and very much respected. Remember there are more people in the east than the West. In many of the Dorje Shugden Tibetan Buddhist centres around the world both East and West get assistance from the oracles. And have been greatly benefitted by them in fact.
You are right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with consulting the Dorje Shugden oracles. It is an incredible event when King Dorje Shugden takes trance and speaks. A decade or more ago, Dorje Shugden took trance in Choyang Dulzin Kuten in Manjushri Centre of NKT and gave the Avalokitesvara initiation. Dorje Shugden himself conferred the initiation through the oracle in NKT. That was very valid. Many senior NKT ppl are still engaged in the practice of Chenresig from that occasion.
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I apologise if I caused offence, my post was somewhat harsh and uncalled for.
Both you and I have different views when it comes to oracles. I'm just aware that the Nechung oracle, for example has been part of the problem regarding Dorje Shugden. The Dalai Lama relies heavily on oracles, it seems, and this seems to have exacerbated his loss of faith in Dorje Shugden. I'm also aware that Buddha Shakyamuni and Buddha Vajradhara never taught reliance on oracles, but many people argue they never taught Dorje Shugden either so who am I to say whether this is a valid practice or not.
We are both Dorje Shugden practitioners and we follow different traditions, it's not right for me find fault with your beliefs, so once again please accept my apologies, I won't mention oracles again. Peace.
I am so glad you are coming to terms that we have different belief systems. I appreciate this tremendously. I am so glad that you mention we belong to the same protector because you are right. You will have your tradition/lama and I will have mine. They are both not wrong, just a different approach. Your tradition do not accept oracles, tulkus, etc, mine does. Who is right? After all, we both pretty much believe what we believe because of our teachers. Both our teachers cannot be wrong although their methods differ tremendously. That is ok. We are the products of our lamas/traditions. So if you criticize what I believe, what would you like me to do? Say what my lama taught me is wrong? It would be the same for you.
Dear Thaimonk
I appreciate these thoughts and advice very much... Though it's a response to Lineageholder but it applies to every practitioner. It is not easy to have a grasp of what guru devotion is with a "proprietary", "mine is better" mind set.
It doesn't have to mean that when we see differing actions from different lamas, that there is something drastically WRONG.
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I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful :)
Hi Zach
It's interesting that you say that oracles are alien to the west because in London, consulting mediums and tarot card readers is really quite common. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wants to distinguish between the medium/tarot card consulting public and genuine Dharma seekers.
I'm glad you agree that there is nothing wrong with seeking advice from the Great King himself. I hear that his advice is very accurate and sometimes appear surprising and illogical, but if you follow his advice with faith, the logic will surface later.
Having you palms read by the local Gypsy is one thing seeing the Dorje shugden oracle go through the ritual and then go into trance is another ;D
Do remember friend that in the western culture while there may be mediums and so on these are not really accepted as the norm and are generally considered to be spirits and so on, If people come to a Dharma centre for instance knowing little and they witness the Great king go into trance via his oracle they may well develop harmful misunderstandings of what Dharma is about mistaking it for backward ritualism and spirit worship. Now there is certainly nothing wrong with Dharma oracles they bring enlightened beings a bit closer to us for advise and I throughly rejoice in those that wish to keep this tradition going as its very helpful but for the NKT it is not the presentation Geshe-la wishes to give people but something a bit more simple and relatable to. Because we do not practise this oracle tradition it doesnt mean we should disrespect it or disparge those whom rely upon it as it is completely valid but as I said its not the presentation that the NKT is seeking to present.
Dear zach, please don't be so Western-centric. Not everything revolves around our Westerners and what we think. On the other side of the coin, NKT could be losing out on a tradition as practiced by our lineage lamas.
In the east, this tradition is alive, valuable and very much respected. Remember there are more people in the east than the West. In many of the Dorje Shugden Tibetan Buddhist centres around the world both East and West get assistance from the oracles. And have been greatly benefitted by them in fact.
You are right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with consulting the Dorje Shugden oracles. It is an incredible event when King Dorje Shugden takes trance and speaks. A decade or more ago, Dorje Shugden took trance in Choyang Dulzin Kuten in Manjushri Centre of NKT and gave the Avalokitesvara initiation. Dorje Shugden himself conferred the initiation through the oracle in NKT. That was very valid. Many senior NKT ppl are still engaged in the practice of Chenresig from that occasion.
I dont know Thaimonk, All I know is Geshe-la is as my spiritual guide and if he see's fit not to include oracles on into the NKT at this time thats perfectly fine. I realize some people think being western centric is a bad thing but this isnt Tibet or India we live in where people are more karmically attunded to stuff like that. :)
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I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful :)
Hi Zach
It's interesting that you say that oracles are alien to the west because in London, consulting mediums and tarot card readers is really quite common. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wants to distinguish between the medium/tarot card consulting public and genuine Dharma seekers.
I'm glad you agree that there is nothing wrong with seeking advice from the Great King himself. I hear that his advice is very accurate and sometimes appear surprising and illogical, but if you follow his advice with faith, the logic will surface later.
Having you palms read by the local Gypsy is one thing seeing the Dorje shugden oracle go through the ritual and then go into trance is another ;D
Do remember friend that in the western culture while there may be mediums and so on these are not really accepted as the norm and are generally considered to be spirits and so on, If people come to a Dharma centre for instance knowing little and they witness the Great king go into trance via his oracle they may well develop harmful misunderstandings of what Dharma is about mistaking it for backward ritualism and spirit worship. Now there is certainly nothing wrong with Dharma oracles they bring enlightened beings a bit closer to us for advise and I throughly rejoice in those that wish to keep this tradition going as its very helpful but for the NKT it is not the presentation Geshe-la wishes to give people but something a bit more simple and relatable to. Because we do not practise this oracle tradition it doesnt mean we should disrespect it or disparge those whom rely upon it as it is completely valid but as I said its not the presentation that the NKT is seeking to present.
Dear zach, please don't be so Western-centric. Not everything revolves around our Westerners and what we think. On the other side of the coin, NKT could be losing out on a tradition as practiced by our lineage lamas.
In the east, this tradition is alive, valuable and very much respected. Remember there are more people in the east than the West. In many of the Dorje Shugden Tibetan Buddhist centres around the world both East and West get assistance from the oracles. And have been greatly benefitted by them in fact.
You are right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with consulting the Dorje Shugden oracles. It is an incredible event when King Dorje Shugden takes trance and speaks. A decade or more ago, Dorje Shugden took trance in Choyang Dulzin Kuten in Manjushri Centre of NKT and gave the Avalokitesvara initiation. Dorje Shugden himself conferred the initiation through the oracle in NKT. That was very valid. Many senior NKT ppl are still engaged in the practice of Chenresig from that occasion.
I dont know Thaimonk, All I know is Geshe-la is as my spiritual guide and if he see's fit not to include oracles on into the NKT at this time thats perfectly fine. I realize some people think being western centric is a bad thing but this isnt Tibet or India we live in where people are more karmically attunded to stuff like that. :)
Geshe la is your spiritual guide and he sees fit not to include oracles for you. That is fine. My spiritual teacher does include oracles for his students. My teacher's view is different than your Geshe-la. So when one who does not include oracles criticize those who do include it, you should know that is not right.
So make it simple. I have never criticized those who do not include oracles, but many of you have criticized me for including oracles as part of my tradition. My spiritual teacher resides in America and all his students reside there mostly also. And they all love the benefits they have received from consulting oracles. And so do I. So it has nothing to do with being in India or Tibet, but respecting other tradtions with no criticisms.
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I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful :)
Hi Zach
It's interesting that you say that oracles are alien to the west because in London, consulting mediums and tarot card readers is really quite common. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wants to distinguish between the medium/tarot card consulting public and genuine Dharma seekers.
I'm glad you agree that there is nothing wrong with seeking advice from the Great King himself. I hear that his advice is very accurate and sometimes appear surprising and illogical, but if you follow his advice with faith, the logic will surface later.
Having you palms read by the local Gypsy is one thing seeing the Dorje shugden oracle go through the ritual and then go into trance is another ;D
Do remember friend that in the western culture while there may be mediums and so on these are not really accepted as the norm and are generally considered to be spirits and so on, If people come to a Dharma centre for instance knowing little and they witness the Great king go into trance via his oracle they may well develop harmful misunderstandings of what Dharma is about mistaking it for backward ritualism and spirit worship. Now there is certainly nothing wrong with Dharma oracles they bring enlightened beings a bit closer to us for advise and I throughly rejoice in those that wish to keep this tradition going as its very helpful but for the NKT it is not the presentation Geshe-la wishes to give people but something a bit more simple and relatable to. Because we do not practise this oracle tradition it doesnt mean we should disrespect it or disparge those whom rely upon it as it is completely valid but as I said its not the presentation that the NKT is seeking to present.
Dear zach, please don't be so Western-centric. Not everything revolves around our Westerners and what we think. On the other side of the coin, NKT could be losing out on a tradition as practiced by our lineage lamas.
In the east, this tradition is alive, valuable and very much respected. Remember there are more people in the east than the West. In many of the Dorje Shugden Tibetan Buddhist centres around the world both East and West get assistance from the oracles. And have been greatly benefitted by them in fact.
You are right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with consulting the Dorje Shugden oracles. It is an incredible event when King Dorje Shugden takes trance and speaks. A decade or more ago, Dorje Shugden took trance in Choyang Dulzin Kuten in Manjushri Centre of NKT and gave the Avalokitesvara initiation. Dorje Shugden himself conferred the initiation through the oracle in NKT. That was very valid. Many senior NKT ppl are still engaged in the practice of Chenresig from that occasion.
I dont know Thaimonk, All I know is Geshe-la is as my spiritual guide and if he see's fit not to include oracles on into the NKT at this time thats perfectly fine. I realize some people think being western centric is a bad thing but this isnt Tibet or India we live in where people are more karmically attunded to stuff like that. :)
Geshe la is your spiritual guide and he sees fit not to include oracles for you. That is fine. My spiritual teacher does include oracles for his students. My teacher's view is different than your Geshe-la. So when one who does not include oracles criticize those who do include it, you should know that is not right.
So make it simple. I have never criticized those who do not include oracles, but many of you have criticized me for including oracles as part of my tradition. My spiritual teacher resides in America and all his students reside there mostly also. And they all love the benefits they have received from consulting oracles. And so do I. So it has nothing to do with being in India or Tibet, but respecting other tradtions with no criticisms.
Im sorry If I have critised the oracle institution please accept my apologise it has never been my intention, My only intention is to point out that what peoples spiritual guides feel is appropriate for them is what they should be doing not critising other spiritual guides choices on what to or not include as they take the traditions west wards. :)
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I am still in close contact with the people who are producing the Dorje Shugden movie and was just told today that they were advised to approach the Oracle again to see if the time to begin production is near. Things could start to move rather quickly once the blessings of Dorje Shugden are given.
Many Lamas have already given their approval for the project and have also pledged support.
I was invited to help with some of the details of the project and hope to assist the crew in whatever way I am able.
If there are specific questions regarding the production of the movie, send me a message and I will see what I can do to get answers for you.
These days I am very busy at the monastery and regrettably do not have much time to post here on the forum. I do check in from time to time and am glad to see so many new topics being discussed.
Much love from Shar Gaden,
T.S.
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I apologise if I caused offence, my post was somewhat harsh and uncalled for.
Both you and I have different views when it comes to oracles. I'm just aware that the Nechung oracle, for example has been part of the problem regarding Dorje Shugden. The Dalai Lama relies heavily on oracles, it seems, and this seems to have exacerbated his loss of faith in Dorje Shugden. I'm also aware that Buddha Shakyamuni and Buddha Vajradhara never taught reliance on oracles, but many people argue they never taught Dorje Shugden either so who am I to say whether this is a valid practice or not.
We are both Dorje Shugden practitioners and we follow different traditions, it's not right for me find fault with your beliefs, so once again please accept my apologies, I won't mention oracles again. Peace.
Dear Lineageholder,
What you worte is so beautiful, accepting differences without criticising one and other can create so much harmony and peace. The basis for all humanity.
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I am still in close contact with the people who are producing the Dorje Shugden movie and was just told today that they were advised to approach the Oracle again to see if the time to begin production is near. Things could start to move rather quickly once the blessings of Dorje Shugden are given.
Many Lamas have already given their approval for the project and have also pledged support.
I was invited to help with some of the details of the project and hope to assist the crew in whatever way I am able.
If there are specific questions regarding the production of the movie, send me a message and I will see what I can do to get answers for you.
These days I am very busy at the monastery and regrettably do not have much time to post here on the forum. I do check in from time to time and am glad to see so many new topics being discussed.
Much love from Shar Gaden,
T.S.
Hi Tenzin Sungrab
Great that you are close to the producers of the movie. I know you said message you but i think that it'd be best to post in the forum so that more people can rejoice in movie that will hopefully bring awareness of our Protector to many people.
You mentioned that many Lamas support this project - are you at liberty to disclose any of them?
thanks!
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I am still in close contact with the people who are producing the Dorje Shugden movie and was just told today that they were advised to approach the Oracle again to see if the time to begin production is near. Things could start to move rather quickly once the blessings of Dorje Shugden are given.
Many Lamas have already given their approval for the project and have also pledged support.
I was invited to help with some of the details of the project and hope to assist the crew in whatever way I am able.
If there are specific questions regarding the production of the movie, send me a message and I will see what I can do to get answers for you.
These days I am very busy at the monastery and regrettably do not have much time to post here on the forum. I do check in from time to time and am glad to see so many new topics being discussed.
Much love from Shar Gaden,
T.S.
Really? Wow! I do hope so! i will pray that the time has come. I can't wait for the movie! Hehe! Sorry, don't mind me showing a little too much glee. It is indeed going to be an exciting film, to learn about Dorje Shugden, his history, lineage and Lamas on film is going to be such an experience. Already the website cartoon here has brought a lot of clarity to Dorje Shugden's origin and lineage. Thank you Tenzin Sungrab and do keep us posted. I am sure there are many easy beavers waiting for the good news.
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Hi Tenzin Sungrab
Great that you are close to the producers of the movie. I know you said message you but i think that it'd be best to post in the forum so that more people can rejoice in movie that will hopefully bring awareness of our Protector to many people.
You mentioned that many Lamas support this project - are you at liberty to disclose any of them?
thanks!
I am pretty sure the Lamas would prefer to remain behind the scenes, but I will ask. I will say though that 3 of the Lamas are names we all know.
We should know within the next week or two if the project is given a green light again by Dorje Shugden via the Oracle.
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Hi Tenzin Sungrab
Great that you are close to the producers of the movie. I know you said message you but i think that it'd be best to post in the forum so that more people can rejoice in movie that will hopefully bring awareness of our Protector to many people.
You mentioned that many Lamas support this project - are you at liberty to disclose any of them?
thanks!
I am pretty sure the Lamas would prefer to remain behind the scenes, but I will ask. I will say though that 3 of the Lamas are names we all know.
We should know within the next week or two if the project is given a green light again by Dorje Shugden via the Oracle.
Dear Tenzin Sungrab,
thank you for your reply. I'm just curious - if these Lamas are 'public' Shugden practitioners, why would they want to be anonymous?
Do you know which oracle they will consult for this issue?
Cheers x
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This movie will be so beneficial to many throughout the the world. I am glad to hear that the people involved has not abandoned the project but sounds like they were waiting for the right time and with blessings of the lama.
I look forward to hearing more news :)
Thanks TS
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That's wonderful news, TS. Please do keep all of us updated.
Wishing and praying all the best for the movie project!
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I'm just curious - if these Lamas are 'public' Shugden practitioners, why would they want to be anonymous?
Do you know which oracle they will consult for this issue?
Actually it is not so much that they choose to remain anonymous as it is that I have no direct confirmation about these teacher's involvement. These teachers have not publicly endorsed the movie, therefore it is not my place to say.
The Oracle that they said they have consulted is the Dorje Shugden oracle in America.
I base all of my information on what I am told by the person who initiated the movie.
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I'm just curious - if these Lamas are 'public' Shugden practitioners, why would they want to be anonymous?
Do you know which oracle they will consult for this issue?
Actually it is not so much that they choose to remain anonymous as it is that I have no direct confirmation about these teacher's involvement. These teachers have not publicly endorsed the movie, therefore it is not my place to say.
The Oracle that they said they have consulted is the Dorje Shugden oracle in America.
I base all of my information on what I am told by the person who initiated the movie.
Hi Tenzin Sungrab
Thanks for sharing that - i understand better now. Hope the Lamas who support this project can openly support it in the near future - especially to give the project more credibility and substance. I look forward to hearing the updates - and what the oracle in America says!
Cheers x
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Thanks for all the sharing.
May good news come through sonner. The movie will bring tremendous clarity and benefit to the world!
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The fact that the Dalai Lama is still with us today is the results of oracular pronouncement by Dorje Shugden . The preparations for the escape were made in absolute secrecy and strictly followed instructions received from Dorje Shugden, according to Dalai Lama’s Chamberlain, Kungo Phala who was a guest in Helmut Gassner's home and revealed this information. (www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/HelmutGassner01.pdf (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/HelmutGassner01.pdf))
Also, it was Nechung who in 1996 prophesied for the Dalai Lama that his life and hence the fate of Tibet were endangered by Shugden practitioners. At the same time, the Shugden oracle announced that the Kundun (Dalai Lama) has been falsely advised by Pehar/Nechung for years. So, you make the choice of "who" to believe ;D
I am very happy that the project is still on, and perhaps the movie will make a bigger impact when the time is right. Please keep us updated Tenzin Sungrab !
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Great to hear about the Dorje Shugden movie potentially gaining momentum again.
On the topic of NKT views of oracles - I am a disciple of Geshe Kelsang, and I believe he wants his Western disciples to rely on developing their wisdom through listening to, contemplating, and meditating on profound Dharma. He has phased out the practice of oracle reliance in the West but never condemns the practice.
I rejoice in those whose oracle reliance brings great spiritual meaning - and I rejoice in my guru's instructions. :)
Now on with the show!!
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Hi Pureprajna,
Welcome to the website and Forum!
Thank you so much for your sharing.
I love what you wrote below - it reflects your great Guru's teachings in the way you carry yourself here.
"On the topic of NKT views of oracles - I am a disciple of Geshe Kelsang, and I believe he wants his Western disciples to rely on developing their wisdom through listening to, contemplating, and meditating on profound Dharma. He has phased out the practice of oracle reliance in the West but never condemns the practice.
I rejoice in those whose oracle reliance brings great spiritual meaning - and I rejoice in my guru's instructions."
ON WITH THE SHOW, INDEED!