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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zach on January 19, 2011, 03:34:37 PM
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Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 5.88 (The Buddha Gave Us This Warning For The Future)
It is possible that a world-renowned monk of very senior status, with a huge following of lay & monastic disciples & who is highly learned in scriptures, can have wrong views.
Now I wonder whom that could be...
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I've read similar proclamation in the christian bible too...but of course not who people think it is from the buddhist circle.
I am not a teacher or learned in anyway, but as an aspiring practitioner, i take this advice to heart of how important it is to be free of wrong views...
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i agree with DSFriend... this is indeed good advice for every one of us to be careful NOT to have wrong views, especially as Buddha has pointed out that it is possible for even a senior monk can have such wrong views, let alone an ant like me.
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Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 5.88 (The Buddha Gave Us This Warning For The Future)
It is possible that a world-renowned monk of very senior status, with a huge following of lay & monastic disciples & who is highly learned in scriptures, can have wrong views.
Now I wonder whom that could be...
Thanks Zach for sharing this. Wrong or right views are very subjective, your"s wrong view may be my right view, and your's right may be my wrong.
To be completely free of wrong views is still a long way to go for me, and in my layman terms and practice, I keep reminding myself not to be judgemental too easily. Many of us tends to pass an opinion to a situation or to a person based on some circumstances, with that a preconceived notion is formed which tends to affect all our future perception of things.
I think it is just good to see things as they are...........at least for my level now.............
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This is a valid prophecy since it was spoken by the Buddha but he didn't say who it was and it would be very foolish to jump onto conclusions based on our limited wisdom and observation. I wouldn't be so quick to surmise that this prophecy would apply to a particular famous Lama since very attained and clairvoyant Lamas would have recognised this Lama. They wouldn't recognize, install or teach someone who would eventually create massive problems like those prophesied by the Buddha.
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This is a valid prophecy since it was spoken by the Buddha but he didn't say who it was and it would be very foolish to jump onto conclusions based on our limited wisdom and observation. I wouldn't be so quick to surmise that this prophecy would apply to a particular famous Lama since very attained and clairvoyant Lamas would have recognised this Lama. They wouldn't recognize, install or teach someone who would eventually create massive problems like those prophesied by the Buddha.
Prime Minister Samdhong is Encouraging Violence Against Shugden Practitioners
“Now, without fear and hesitation, we, Tibetans, must fight and destroy Shugden followers”
Samdhong Rinpoche
And this lama was recognized, installed or taught by the same attained and clairvoyant lamas.
Therefore, he is truly acting in an enlightened way, for sure...
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Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 5.88 (The Buddha Gave Us This Warning For The Future)
It is possible that a world-renowned monk of very senior status, with a huge following of lay & monastic disciples & who is highly learned in scriptures, can have wrong views.
Now I wonder whom that could be...
"The Dalai Lama continued:
“Those who worship Dholgyal are taken care of by the Chinese government. It would be best if they returned to where they are cared for. There is no reason for them to live here. Do you understand?”
Now I also wonder whom that could be...
Not this one, for sure: attained, clairvoyant and compassionate...
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Please, tell me again, I don't remember: where is it written
or taught that we should follow blindly a monk if he happens
to be of very senior status, with a huge following of lay and
monastic disciples, and highly learned in scriptures ?
If such a monk visits me and asks me to ban my mother
from my home due to her beliefs, I will unceremoniously
and compassionately show him the door.
And I would think that it would be great if his followers somehow
showed him the door as well...
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When a Buddha acts in ways that we do not expect a Buddha to act:
Option 1: our faith is weak and we stop seeing a Buddha, what we see is a being defined by the challenging action that this being is doing or has done. Result: we either move backwards or we remain stationary (which equates to moving backwards).
Option 2: our faith plays its true role (it remains and keeps our minds virtuous when expectations of actions and results have been disappointed and when hopes have dissipated), what we see is a Buddha in action taking a student (me) through testing grounds, or blessing a student (me) with a teaching, or making a student (me) purify black karma, or making a student (me) unknowingly participate to the growth of Dharma through a student's (my) delusions (let's talk about skillful means!).
What makes a guru?
A guru can only be a guru in the eyes of his students that have invested faith in the guru having the qualities of a guru. The guru will challenge his students' faith, it's his job. As the guru tests his students, some student's faith will show to be strong and will grow stronger and some students' faith will be weak and will weaken further if an antidote is not applied quickly.
The moment a student stops investing his guru with the qualities of a Buddha, his guru cannot help him much any more, and as a result the faith weakens even further, this is a very saddening process.
I take an example to illustrate the above: the 6th Dalai Lama.
Some very powerful people then lost faith in His Holiness, they stopped seeing a Buddha and only saw someone who seemed to be principally interested in courting ladies. Because of the faith being lost, they engaged in actions that created obstacles for them to benefit from His Holiness.
Would their faith had remain, the modern history of Tibet would have been very different indeed.
We only need to look in the past to see how loosing faith in His Holiness had proven to be unwise, and in the light of that, re-consider what is happening today with a broader point of view.
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When a Buddha acts in ways that we do not expect a Buddha to act:
Option 1: our faith is weak and we stop seeing a Buddha, what we see is a being defined by the challenging action that this being is doing or has done. Result: we either move backwards or we remain stationary (which equates to moving backwards).
Option 2: our faith plays its true role (it remains and keeps our minds virtuous when expectations of actions and results have been disappointed and when hopes have dissipated), what we see is a Buddha in action taking a student (me) through testing grounds, or blessing a student (me) with a teaching, or making a student (me) purify black karma, or making a student (me) unknowingly participate to the growth of Dharma through a student's (my) delusions (let's talk about skillful means!).
What makes a guru?
A guru can only be a guru in the eyes of his students that have invested faith in the guru having the qualities of a guru. The guru will challenge his students' faith, it's his job. As the guru tests his students, some student's faith will show to be strong and will grow stronger and some students' faith will be weak and will weaken further if an antidote is not applied quickly.
The moment a student stops investing his guru with the qualities of a Buddha, his guru cannot help him much any more, and as a result the faith weakens even further, this is a very saddening process.
I take an example to illustrate the above: the 6th Dalai Lama.
Some very powerful people then lost faith in His Holiness, they stopped seeing a Buddha and only saw someone who seemed to be principally interested in courting ladies. Because of the faith being lost, they engaged in actions that created obstacles for them to benefit from His Holiness.
Would their faith had remain, the modern history of Tibet would have been very different indeed.
We only need to look in the past to see how loosing faith in His Holiness had proven to be unwise, and in the light of that, re-consider what is happening today with a broader point of view.
It's exactly as you said !
One should also remember that our guru will not be exactly delighted if we agree to do something that is in contradiction with the teachings of Buddha simply because it was our guru who asked us to do it...
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This is a valid prophecy since it was spoken by the Buddha but he didn't say who it was and it would be very foolish to jump onto conclusions based on our limited wisdom and observation. I wouldn't be so quick to surmise that this prophecy would apply to a particular famous Lama since very attained and clairvoyant Lamas would have recognised this Lama. They wouldn't recognize, install or teach someone who would eventually create massive problems like those prophesied by the Buddha.
But then that would make Buddhas prophecy false wouldnt it because such would not come into fruition ?
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There is a good reason why spiritual guides are ment to keep perfect Vinaya discipline.
With Regards to choosing a spiritual guide one should examine them carefully to make sure they do already have unwavering discipline otherwise if not then if your lama misbehaves you basis of faith will be shaken.
The 6th Dalai lama wouldnt have been on my list of choosing for a spiritual guide regardless of how high the title if one cannot show correct conventional discipline so that people may develop faith then many people will not enter the path.
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who ever the Buddha had meant in his prophecy could apply to so many senior monks that there is really no point speculating. The Dalai Lama could easily use that prophecy to say that Pabongka Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche was wrong, so i believe that this debate is a completely illusory one.
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from Zach W
There is a good reason why spiritual guides are ment to keep perfect Vinaya discipline.
With Regards to choosing a spiritual guide one should examine them carefully to make sure they do already have unwavering discipline otherwise if not then if your lama misbehaves you basis of faith will be shaken.
The 6th Dalai lama wouldnt have been on my list of choosing for a spiritual guide regardless of how high the title if one cannot show correct conventional discipline so that people may develop faith then many people will not enter the path.
I think it is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (in Joyful Path) who has this definition of faith (this is from memory, I hope I get it right)): "faith is the natural virtuous mind that remains when one sees faults in the observed object of faith".
Seeing faults in the 6th Dalai Lama's actions denotes of the same process as seeing faults in the 14th Dalai Lama's actions. My reference to the 6th is historical, with the distance we can now acknowledge that the 6th's actions were motivated NOT by attachment to ladies, but had for aim to strengthen the political seat of Tibet by making it a kingdom would he have been left to have a son. With a politically stronger Tibet, there was also a stronger worldly platform for the growth of Dharma. With the 6th we have the time distance giving us more perspective to appreciate His Holiness' actions, we do not have the same time distance to appreciate the actions of the 14th Dalai Lama, but we have... FAITH!
Or we don't.
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from Zach W
There is a good reason why spiritual guides are ment to keep perfect Vinaya discipline.
With Regards to choosing a spiritual guide one should examine them carefully to make sure they do already have unwavering discipline otherwise if not then if your lama misbehaves you basis of faith will be shaken.
The 6th Dalai lama wouldnt have been on my list of choosing for a spiritual guide regardless of how high the title if one cannot show correct conventional discipline so that people may develop faith then many people will not enter the path.
I think it is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (in Joyful Path) who has this definition of faith (this is from memory, I hope I get it right)): "faith is the natural virtuous mind that remains when one sees faults in the observed object of faith".
Seeing faults in the 6th Dalai Lama's actions denotes of the same process as seeing faults in the 14th Dalai Lama's actions. My reference to the 6th is historical, with the distance we can now acknowledge that the 6th's actions were motivated NOT by attachment to ladies, but had for aim to strengthen the political seat of Tibet by making it a kingdom would he have been left to have a son. With a politically stronger Tibet, there was also a stronger worldly platform for the growth of Dharma. With the 6th we have the time distance giving us more perspective to appreciate His Holiness' actions, we do not have the same time distance to appreciate the actions of the 14th Dalai Lama, but we have... FAITH!
Or we don't.
HopeRainbow, I like so much that you used the 6th Dalai Lama as an example for us to relate to the current 14th Dalai Lama. Only "time" and "distance" will give us more persepctive on the whole scenerio. So lets give ourselves Time and Distance now and don't lose "FAITH"!!!!!
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Seeing faults in the 6th Dalai Lama's actions denotes of the same process as seeing faults in the 14th Dalai Lama's actions. My reference to the 6th is historical, with the distance we can now acknowledge that the 6th's actions were motivated NOT by attachment to ladies, but had for aim to strengthen the political seat of Tibet by making it a kingdom would he have been left to have a son. With a politically stronger Tibet, there was also a stronger worldly platform for the growth of Dharma.
Wow, where do you get that from?
I'm just curious.
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Seeing faults in the 6th Dalai Lama's actions denotes of the same process as seeing faults in the 14th Dalai Lama's actions. My reference to the 6th is historical, with the distance we can now acknowledge that the 6th's actions were motivated NOT by attachment to ladies, but had for aim to strengthen the political seat of Tibet by making it a kingdom would he have been left to have a son. With a politically stronger Tibet, there was also a stronger worldly platform for the growth of Dharma.
Wow, where do you get that from?
I'm just curious.
It is described in details in Glenn Mullin's "The Fourteen Dalai Lamas: A Sacred Legacy of Reincarnation".
(2001) Clear Light Publishers, Santa Fe, New Mexico. ISBN 1-57416-092-3
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Seeing faults in the 6th Dalai Lama's actions denotes of the same process as seeing faults in the 14th Dalai Lama's actions. My reference to the 6th is historical, with the distance we can now acknowledge that the 6th's actions were motivated NOT by attachment to ladies, but had for aim to strengthen the political seat of Tibet by making it a kingdom would he have been left to have a son. With a politically stronger Tibet, there was also a stronger worldly platform for the growth of Dharma.
With respect, there's no way you can say that the Dalai Lama's actions were not motivated by attachment to ladies. How can anyone say that unless they know the 6th Dalai Lama's mind? He was, apparently, amorous. There is further evidence to reach this conclusion from his poetry, for example:
’I incline myself
To the teachings of my lama
But my heart secretly escapes
To the thoughts of my sweetheart’
’Even if meditated upon,
The face of my lama comes not to me,
But again and again comes to me
The smiling face of my beloved’
http://www.tibetwrites.org/?Some-poems-of-the-Sixth-Dalai-Lama
It sounds like another case of apologism on behalf of the (apparently) faulty moral discipline of the Dalai Lama.
I suppose the 13th Dalai Lama signing orders to torture and execute others was his way of getting them to practise patience.........sigh. What a kindness! ;D
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Morale Discipline is essential.
Dont forget Holy beings manifest with the intention of helping us and personally I beleive the most effective way is doing as the Buddha has shown by showing pure virtue by acting as a holder of morale discipline.
This is suitable spiritual guide material and is sound advise on behalf of the accomplished. A lack of morale discipline is not effective for one to be of guidence toward others especially in Dharma, if what they preach isnt mirrored in action then this stands as hypocracy.
I prefer those who can do without the politics and present themselves in accordence with the Dharma. That is Noble.
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who ever the Buddha had meant in his prophecy could apply to so many senior monks that there is really no point speculating. The Dalai Lama could easily use that prophecy to say that Pabongka Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche was wrong, so i believe that this debate is a completely illusory one.
I love what you wrote here, WB.
Every Enlightened Being works in his or her own mysterious ways to bring about the most benefit.
That is the most amazing part.
Let's not get caught up and carried away with the illusory plays but play a concrete beneficial role in every situation that reflects our Guru's teachings well.
Those are the real results that last through time and future lives.
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Morale Discipline is essential.
Dont forget Holy beings manifest with the intention of helping us and personally I beleive the most effective way is doing as the Buddha has shown by showing pure virtue by acting as a holder of morale discipline.
This is suitable spiritual guide material and is sound advise on behalf of the accomplished. A lack of morale discipline is not effective for one to be of guidence toward others especially in Dharma, if what they preach isnt mirrored in action then this stands as hypocracy.
I prefer those who can do without the politics and present themselves in accordence with the Dharma. That is Noble.
Hi Zach,
I also prefer those who can do without the politics.
And I really did not engage into a spiritual path to get into this mess of politics, on the contrary, I wanted peace of mind, not controversy and cie. Debating about controversy and politics is clearly not what I expected my spiritual path would be.
Yet, it is my karma that I must go through what looks like a mess, like political manipulation, what looks like "schismic" activity from the very people I expected otherwise, and even what looks like "immoral" activity also (6th and 13th -dixit).
So, it is up to me to resolve the problem in my mind, I really think it is.
Eventually, it is very simple, either The Dalai Lama is legitimate, or he isn't.
By study of the history of the Dalai Lamas, and the history of Tibet, by the observation of the behavior of the high lamas acting around the Dalai Lama (the reading of Trijang Rinpoche's biography for instance), I find more reasons for me to believe that His Holines is Chenrezig acting skilfully than otherwise. I am not qualified to know "for sure", but I must have enough merit to have faith and rely on those I find trutworthy, faith in the 6th Dalai Lama, faith in the 5th Dalai Lama, in the 3rd, in the 13th and in the 14th Dalai Lama (list is not exhaustive).
Thousands, hundreds, millions should rejoyce in his actions, for it is through His Holiness that mahayana and vajrayana buddhisme has spread across the globe in the 20th century, His Holiness works tirelessly for the sake of all sentient beings, it is my conclusion. His Holiness is the most famous buddhist monk in the world after Buddha Shakyamuni himself, he is known and respected by athesists, christians, muslims, hindous - what else is there to say?
I do not claim to understand everything that His Hoiliness does, I am not qualified, but my faith in him is based on logic, that is all I have for me now. And it does not mean that I support the ban, not at all, neither does it mean that I can agree with torture in the time of the 13th Dalai Lama, not at all.
Would I have in my hand a signed order from my guru to torture someone, I would not do it because I have faith in my guru for being a Buddha and I believe this would displease him greatly.
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Thanks for your reply Hope Rainbow.
To some extent I agree friend. His Holiness in General has done a good job of promoting the Buddhadharma to a world wide auidence and I certainly rejoice in positive deeds such as this. However while i maintain respect for these actions i cannot applaud or accept certain other actions of his incarnation lineage and his current life.
Wether They are acting skillfully or not I dont know, But I can say with all my Heart that to accept someone as a Guru teacher they have to practise morale conduct as according to tradition and by virtue of very wholesome actions in general I would steer clear of political Lamas.
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Thank you for your reply Zach,
I like this conversation, it is mature and understanding, we don't need to have the same opinions, and it is fine like this, we try to inform each other because we care and we learn along the way.
I like this about this forum that hot topics can be discussed without the fire of anger burning.
I guess it is your privilege to be able to stay clear of political lamas. And probably, for most of us, it would be a more suitable choice to make (it would at least appear so). Some of us don't have the luxury of thatchoice though. In this case, I don't think the Dalai Lama had a choice, he had to be a political lama, regardless of how he has handled it. Some how politics was a platform to promote buddhism, we are still in samsara after all...
I disagree with the ban, which means I disagree with the Dalai Lama? Yes, it looks like it on the surface, but in any case, it does not mean he is no more Chenrezig. That is my conclusion.
The Dalai Lama has shown his skills in turning situations around so as to promote buddhism, so my stand is: how can we turn the ban around so as to help Dorje Shugden practice to grow. I think this is a more beneficial focus than exerting effort to demonstrate faults in the Dalai Lama (that could be damaging for his followers faith and I wouldn't want to conbtemplate the effect of that karma).
When you say this:
"But I can say with all my Heart that to accept someone as a Guru teacher they have to practise morale conduct as according to tradition and by virtue of very wholesome actions in general I would steer clear of political Lamas"
I actually agree with you, unless of course it means that I am missing in action for activities that are spreading Dharma and benefitting many. And for as long as moral conduct is untainted, politics is an aspect of samsara that some may have to use with proper motivation (bodhichitta). This is probably more difficult than retracting from the world and engage in "retreats", but if it shows to be the way for our world today, my personal preferences would have to give way. Good motivation is essential though, and refuge, and renunciation!
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who ever the Buddha had meant in his prophecy could apply to so many senior monks that there is really no point speculating. The Dalai Lama could easily use that prophecy to say that Pabongka Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche was wrong, so i believe that this debate is a completely illusory one.
This is an excellent point. Instead of trying to guess who this supposedly wrong lama is, perhaps it would be better to consider how we would react to such a situation instead. Assuming a lama appears to be wrong: do you add more trouble or negativity to the situation or find more ways to help the beings involved?
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who ever the Buddha had meant in his prophecy could apply to so many senior monks that there is really no point speculating. The Dalai Lama could easily use that prophecy to say that Pabongka Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche was wrong, so i believe that this debate is a completely illusory one.
This is an excellent point. Instead of trying to guess who this supposedly wrong lama is, perhaps it would be better to consider how we would react to such a situation instead. Assuming a lama appears to be wrong: do you add more trouble or negativity to the situation or find more ways to help the beings involved?
Thank you Beggar, I totally agree with your post.
I think we miss the point and waste our time and energy when we spend it to find faults in lamas, instead of spending time helping others.