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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: WisdomBeing on December 04, 2010, 01:34:46 AM
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I was reading an article about cloned animals (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1335516/Cloned-meat-gets-ahead-Minister-rejects-ban-despite-health-animal-welfare-fears.html) and i was wondering - do cloned animals have their own mindstream different from the original they were cloned from?
Also, in test tube babies - how does the mind get attracted to go into the union between sperm and egg? cos i read before that the mind is attracted to the female organ or the male organ while they are joined and that's how the mind stream enters the new life.
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Interesting question, WB.
I never thought about it, I must admit.
Hope someone can also help us with some answers.
I would really like to know as well.
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This is surely an interesting question.
All religions have questions about cloning.
I remember there was a movie about that, the movie was about people's clones being weird human creatures without a "soul"... Not sure what that means!
As far as I can apply common sense on the issue, here is how I would debate:
1. beings are of two types: a) sentient beings, b) enlightened beings
2. clones are either one or the other, since there is no other category (and they are not vegetal neither)
3. thus they experience pain and operate with five aggregates if they are sentient beings
4. and they are buddhas' emanations or buddhas if they are enlightened
5. therefore, to me, I do not see a reason why a clone is any different from another being in this sense: I do not see any reason why we sould consider clones with a different mind set than other beings.
And if I am wrong, maybe we should adjust our prayers like this:
"
may it be that all sentient beings AND CLONES have happiness and its causes,
may it be that all sentient beings AND CLONES become free from suffering and its causes,
etc..."
That does not make much sense, does it?
I'd like to read what others think of this topic
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That is an intriguing question and I believe that what WisdomBeing have mentioned is a normal method from which a being can take rebirth by the force of karma. Cloning have perhaps created a new method for beings to take rebirth. The attraction to the male and female organs is just a method but the real cause behind that is karma. So I think cloning have created new circumstances for beings to take rebirth under the same controlling factor, which is karma. Well, that is how I would see it.
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That is an intriguing question and I believe that what WisdomBeing have mentioned is a normal method from which a being can take rebirth by the force of karma. Cloning have perhaps created a new method for beings to take rebirth. The attraction to the male and female organs is just a method but the real cause behind that is karma. So I think cloning have created new circumstances for beings to take rebirth under the same controlling factor, which is karma. Well, that is how I would see it.
Interesting, BigU.. i guess methods do evolve over time but you're right - the basis for everything is karma. Perhaps those who are 'born' as a result of cloning have the karma to be 'born' like that. Clones may prove the existence of different mindstreams because technically if someone is a clone of another, they should be identical to the other person/animal. However, if they are different in character despite exactly the same DNA make up and environment they are brought up in, then it shows that they have different mindstreams.
And HopeR - yes i believe all clones are still sentient beings, so they must be the continuation of a mindstream from somewhere.
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A sentient being is a psycho-physical composite. Before the advance of science into cloning technology, the body of a human is thought to be unique.
While physical properties of a living being can now be replicated, a person's mind remain unique and individualistic. As mentioned by many , this is due to the differences in experiences and past associations which an individual's mindstream had been conditioned.
When a being comes into existence, via any mode of birth (from egg , womb, moisture etc )these imprints in a beings mental continuum will manifest as a unique personality with its own tendencies, likes and dislikes.Even enlightened beings have different dispositions although they all have purified their karma to suffer.
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so does that mean beings can take on the human form without going through the "route" as mentioned by wb?
and i wonder what's the karmic cause for beings to be reborn in human form via the various ways..
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Dear DS Friend,
Things arise when the right causes and conditions are assembled. Before the advent of cloning technology & genetic engineering ,there was test tube technology producing babies.In future scientific research may yield other technology to perform the same function.
The main factor for coming into existence is still a being's karmic energy. Only difference is now there are more modes of rebirth to choose from depending upon one's karmic inclination.
Apparently, cloning etc have very high failure rates. So it looks like for now, the more natural union of parents is still the preferred conditions to take on a physical human form.
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So what about cryonics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics)? Possible or not?
Or do we create zombies?
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So what about cryonics ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics[/url])? Possible or not?
Or do we create zombies?
Dharma Defender,
Interesting question (oh i love this forum)! Hmmm if people are frozen but legally dead (what is the definition of legally dead anyway) - have their minds moved onto another rebirth, so their bodies, while preserved perfectly, have no life force after all, and would theoretically not be possible to resuscitate?
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So what about cryonics ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics[/url])? Possible or not?
Or do we create zombies?
Dharma Defender,
Interesting question (oh i love this forum)! Hmmm if people are frozen but legally dead (what is the definition of legally dead anyway) - have their minds moved onto another rebirth, so their bodies, while preserved perfectly, have no life force after all, and would theoretically not be possible to resuscitate?
I think legally dead is brain dead...but in cryonics, your body's technically in a suspended state of existence, so the brain technically isn't dead...or something like that.
That would be weird, old body but a young mind reentering...
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That is an intriguing question and I believe that what WisdomBeing have mentioned is a normal method from which a being can take rebirth by the force of karma. Cloning have perhaps created a new method for beings to take rebirth. The attraction to the male and female organs is just a method but the real cause behind that is karma. So I think cloning have created new circumstances for beings to take rebirth under the same controlling factor, which is karma. Well, that is how I would see it.
Logically speaking, clones should also have different mindstreams. The union of the female and male should not always be required. After all, there are beings born from heat, and also those born in the formless realms. In these cases, there should not be any union occuring...
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I believe cloned animals are just like all sentient beings. If the animal is occupied by an Enlightened mind, then most likely the Enlightened mind can manifest in many other bodies. If the animal is occupied by an unenlightened mind, then this unenlightened mind can only exist in one body at a time.
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Interesting topic of the mind of a clone.
Is the main reason behind cloning of animals is because we want more meat without guilt? Because it is cloned it doesn't matter the pain and suffering as it is not real, the producer can sell more meat without guilt?
In my view it doesn't matter how the animals or sentient beings come into being, as long as it has all the aggregates, can perceive, and respond, feel pains and happiness, then there is a mind residing in the physical form whether being in animals form or human form. Are we to say if we can successfully clone a human, in the future, then we can eat human eat?
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There are a few types of cloning. This includes:
Embryonic Cloning
Scientists use two techniques for Embryonic Cloning. Artificial Embryo Twinning was the first form of biological cloning developed. This scientific procedure mimics the natural process of creating twins. Using a Petri dish, an early stage embryo is manually divided into two embryos. Both embryos are identical and have the same DNA. When these embryos are placed into a host mother, genetically identical twins are born.
Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer is the advanced approach to cloning. In this process, DNA is removed from a host and placed into a specially prepared egg cell for reproduction. To prepare the egg cell for cloning, scientists insert a needle into the cell and remove its DNA from the nuclei. This "empty" nuclei is then "filled" with the DNA taken from the host. The egg cell is then implanted for reproduction. When the fetus is born, it will be an identical copy of the host.
Artificial Embryo Twinning - sounds like there'd be different mind streams for each twin.
Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer - how would the clone share the same mind stream as the host, if it was born at a different time...? Moreover the the DNA used to create the clone is the result of the union that resulted in the host... an why would the mind of the host follow the DNA which is inserted into the new eggcell? The mind doesn't "reside" in DNA...
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So what about cryonics ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics[/url]))? Possible or not?
Or do we create zombies?
Dharma Defender,
Interesting question (oh i love this forum)! Hmmm if people are frozen but legally dead (what is the definition of legally dead anyway) - have their minds moved onto another rebirth, so their bodies, while preserved perfectly, have no life force after all, and would theoretically not be possible to resuscitate?
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To be pronounced legally dead your organs (heart and lungs) must have irreversibly ceased to function. If the entire brain is not functioning, so that breathing and heartbeat are maintained only by artificial means, that patient meets the whole-brain standard of death.
I made a search and came across this : [http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/cryogenic/] Cryonics is the study of the cryopreservation of the human body.
So, if it is a preservation then there is the chance that you can be revived and all your organs should return to functioning mode. If that is the case, then does that also mean that the mind did not leave ?
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That is an intriguing question and I believe that what WisdomBeing have mentioned is a normal method from which a being can take rebirth by the force of karma. Cloning have perhaps created a new method for beings to take rebirth. The attraction to the male and female organs is just a method but the real cause behind that is karma. So I think cloning have created new circumstances for beings to take rebirth under the same controlling factor, which is karma. Well, that is how I would see it.
Logically speaking, clones should also have different mindstreams. The union of the female and male should not always be required. After all, there are beings born from heat, and also those born in the formless realms. In these cases, there should not be any union occuring...
I agree with Thor as I too believe there are different ways of taking rebirth. The one we speak of with regards to the union of male and female is but one method of "creation" and as such, one method of rebirth. As mentioned again by Thor there are those beings born from heat, those born in the formless realms whereby no conventional union (as we perceive) is needed.
So with that logic, cloning could result in a similar fruition... in that a mindstream could be attracted to the conditions whereby it could attach itself to a host much like born of conventional union. I do not believe for one moment our mind streams would say "hey, it is not from conventional union, I will not go there!".
If it is a fully functional animal so why not. After all, if we did take rebirth as an animal, clone or otherwise it is the our very karma that decides that. I do not think there is a distinction hence my answer would mimic that of Thor in that cloned animals would have different mindstreams.
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I would say YES becuase cloning is just a creation of another vessel/shell still. Even though you a duplicating the cells and DNA but you are not duplicating the mind stream as that is not possible. Unless you are a Buddha and can manifest yourself in to different forms or be in a few forms all at the same time.
So in this case the entity that is in the cloned body is definitely of a different mind stream. I agree that it does not require the union of the female and male organ and the being that enters this cloned vessel/body is still a being that has taken rebirth under the same controlling factors of karma.
The body may be a cloned one but not the mind.
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Cloned animals are still sentient beings. Cloning is just a new way for a mind to enter a body (rebirth). Thus, their mindstream is different from the original. They may have similar traits. This is similar to how twins work. They may look the same, they may act the same yet they are not the same. They still have different mindstreams. I always thought that the mind is formed between the sperm and the ovum not at the male and female organs.
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Cloned animals are still sentient beings. Cloning is just a new way for a mind to enter a body (rebirth). Thus, their mindstream is different from the original. They may have similar traits. This is similar to how twins work. They may look the same, they may act the same yet they are not the same. They still have different mindstreams. I always thought that the mind is formed between the sperm and the ovum not at the male and female organs.
I believe it is said that the moment the primordial blood of the female touches the sperm of the male, that is when the consciousness can and will enter. That is at the exact point of conception it is said!
A friend who was reading "Transform your life: A blissful journey" by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, said to me that at one point in the book he states that his mother died and three days later he found her reincarnation in a new born baby, to make the long story short. Of course there were other signs and prayers that it was her, and signs afterward that helped confirm.
If this is true, wouldn't his mother had to have died nine months before that baby was born to be reincarnated into that baby? Or am I missing something? Or perhaps it was merely a translation problem as it is often the case.
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positivechange : i learnt that our mindstream enter to body since the sperm has reaction with egg. Therefore when people did abortion, its consider killing as the fetus already exist and has the mind. i not so sure about the story you sharing, perhaps it can be the mistake from the translation or there is an exception about how the mindstream work.
well.. in my opinion cloned animals have different mindstream base on normal beings that have one mindstream in one body, it just a new body in another mind stream even though it same look of body but it consider new one.
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I believe clones would have a mindstream. After all they do take birth, hence there should be a mindstream. Clones are just different method of birth just unnaturally like we perceived it should be. However A clone sheep the name of Dolly, survived 6 years, some scientist claimed that cloned animals have short life. How true it is is still lack scientific research to determined if cloning animals will have any detrimental effects on that animals in the future.
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I was reading an article about cloned animals ([url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1335516/Cloned-meat-gets-ahead-Minister-rejects-ban-despite-health-animal-welfare-fears.html[/url] ([url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1335516/Cloned-meat-gets-ahead-Minister-rejects-ban-despite-health-animal-welfare-fears.html[/url])) and i was wondering - do cloned animals have their own mindstream different from the original they were cloned from?
Also, in test tube babies - how does the mind get attracted to go into the union between sperm and egg? cos i read before that the mind is attracted to the female organ or the male organ while they are joined and that's how the mind stream enters the new life.
For test tube babies.... It was said that the mind or our consciousness enters us upon the union of the sperm and egg. It doesn't have to be conceived in the traditional manner... if you know what I mean...
As for cloned animals... There would be a different mindstream from the original clone. Why? Because even in nature, there are some animals that continue to exist through cloning themselves as reproduction process (mainly insects and lizards...). So if these beings that naturally clone themselves are able to have separate mindstreams from the parent... then it would be the same for laboratory created clones.