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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmaDefender on November 03, 2010, 08:25:48 AM
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Victorious over the four types of being who, though they are proud to be counted among Buddhists, have fallen into the crevasse of inferior views
Of course this comes from Dorje Shugden's prayer. What I find incredible is that the prayer was written so long ago but the basic premise has remained the same all these years - even those who call themselves Buddhist, are not necessarily Dharmic.
I wish I could tell every anti-DS person to look at the verses a little deeper, and see that they aren't about blood, skin and thigh bones, and harming others but a request from us, for us to lead a Dharma life. The prayers recognise that even when you're Buddhist and practising Dharma, obstacles can still exist because unless you're enlightened, your views can shift back and forth (from inferior to superior and back again). And these obstacles come from your own mind.
Question - what are the four types of being?
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Victorious over the four types of being who, though they are proud to be counted among Buddhists, have fallen into the crevasse of inferior views
Of course this comes from Dorje Shugden's prayer. What I find incredible is that the prayer was written so long ago but the basic premise has remained the same all these years - even those who call themselves Buddhist, are not necessarily Dharmic.
I wish I could tell every anti-DS person to look at the verses a little deeper, and see that they aren't about blood, skin and thigh bones, and harming others but a request from us, for us to lead a Dharma life. The prayers recognise that even when you're Buddhist and practising Dharma, obstacles can still exist because unless you're enlightened, your views can shift back and forth (from inferior to superior and back again). And these obstacles come from your own mind.
Question - what are the four types of being?
Interesting question DharmaDefender. I have no idea but am hazarding a guess - could it be the four schools of Buddhism, i.e. Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug? I am not really convinced because not all from these schools "have fallen into the crevasse of inferior views" though some practitioners from each of these schools may qualify! Anyway, look forward to others' views on this.
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Victorious over the four types of being who, though they are proud to be counted among Buddhists, have fallen into the crevasse of inferior views
Question - what are the four types of being?
If I'm not mistaken, they are :
Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, arhats and sentient beings
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Victorious over the four types of being who, though they are proud to be counted among Buddhists, have fallen into the crevasse of inferior views
Question - what are the four types of being?
If I'm not mistaken, they are :
Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, arhats and sentient beings
Hmmm.. i don't think it can be Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, Arhats because they would definitely not "have fallen into the crevasse of inferior views" either.
Thanks for responding though. I'm now quite curious about what is the real answer.
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I am not sure either, but here is one way to divide beings-
1-Ordinary being ie.-Non-Arya: a being who has not perceived emptiness directly
2-Arya: a being who has perceived emptiness directly but who has not yet eliminated all of their mental afflictions.
3-Arhat: a being who has perceived emptiness directly and has also eliminated all mental afflictions. This being has destroyed all affliction obstacles (nyon-drip), but not all obstacles to knowledge (she-drip) This being can be said to have achieved Nirvana.
4-Completely Enlightened being: a being who has perceived emptiness directly and removed all mental affliction obstacles as well as all obstacles to knowledge. This being has escaped samsara and can be said to have achieved the omniscient mind of perfect Enlightenment.
This is not the 4 that you are refering to, because these have not " fallen into the crevasse of inferior views", but this is one way to classify beings that I have read in the scriptures.
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In the Suttas (or Sutras), the Buddha typically calls the totality of his followers as being a fourfold Sangha, a fourfold congregation: Bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, upaasakas, and upaasikaas, that is, those men who have gone forth, those women who have gone forth, male householders, and female householders. All Buddhist humans belong to one of these groups of the Fourfold Sangha. If one is a follower of the Buddha, one is counted as belonging to one of these groups.
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Thank you Zhalmed Pawo for your clarification. I think your answer is the most appropriate one so far :)
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Thanks Zhalmed Pawo, I am not sure also but your answers could be the right one.
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I believe that 'the four types of beings who have fallen into the cravasse of wrong views' refer to the four types of proponents of Buddhist tenets which are:
Vaibashikas
Sautantrikas
Chittamatrins
Madhyamika Svatantrikas
Dorje Shugden bestows the wisdom of Buddha's ultimate view, the Madhyamika Prasangika view, on his faithful disciples. Compared to this view, the views of the lower schools are wrong views as they do not actually lead to liberation. More information see 'A Brief Summary of Buddhist Tenets' by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso which can be found in his book Ocean of Nectar.
SB
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I believe that 'the four types of beings who have fallen into the cravasse of wrong views' refer to the four types of proponents of Buddhist tenets which are:
Vaibashikas
Sautantrikas
Chittamatrins
Madhyamika Svatantrikas
Dorje Shugden bestows the wisdom of Buddha's ultimate view, the Madhyamika Prasangika view, on his faithful disciples. Compared to this view, the views of the lower schools are wrong views as they do not actually lead to liberation. More information see 'A Brief Summary of Buddhist Tenets' by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso which can be found in his book Ocean of Nectar.
SB
i think that Zhalmed Pawo's reply seems most appropriate too. However, i wanted to ask SB - which are the lower schools you mention above?
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Hi WB,
The so-called lower schools are the four mentioned ones: Vaibashikas, Sautantrikas, Chittamatrins and
Madhyamika Svatantrikas. They are called 'lower schools' because the view of emptiness taught in these school is inferior to Buddha's final view of the Madhyamika Prasangika school. We cannot attain liberation or Enlightenment without realising this correct view of emptiness of the Prasangikas. Hence it is Dorje Shugden's main job to bestow this wisdom upon us. Hope this is helpful.
Best wishes,
SB
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Hi WB,
The so-called lower schools are the four mentioned ones: Vaibashikas, Sautantrikas, Chittamatrins and
Madhyamika Svatantrikas. They are called 'lower schools' because the view of emptiness taught in these school is inferior to Buddha's final view of the Madhyamika Prasangika school. We cannot attain liberation or Enlightenment without realising this correct view of emptiness of the Prasangikas. Hence it is Dorje Shugden's main job to bestow this wisdom upon us. Hope this is helpful.
Best wishes,
SB
Excellent. Simple straightforward and accurate. Thanks
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Hi WB,
The so-called lower schools are the four mentioned ones: Vaibashikas, Sautantrikas, Chittamatrins and
Madhyamika Svatantrikas. They are called 'lower schools' because the view of emptiness taught in these school is inferior to Buddha's final view of the Madhyamika Prasangika school. We cannot attain liberation or Enlightenment without realising this correct view of emptiness of the Prasangikas. Hence it is Dorje Shugden's main job to bestow this wisdom upon us. Hope this is helpful.
Best wishes,
SB
Thanks SB for the clear explanation and link to Dorje Shugden too! :)
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I believe what DS friend meant is the motivation of the 4 types of beings.
Ordinary beings who are concerned with :
1. happiness of present life.
2. happiness of future lives.
3. happiness of self liberation
4. happiness of enlightenment.
While we may hold such aspirations, we may not be practicing correctly to have commensurate results. If our purification is not effective , or our merits are exhausted, we can still fall into lower realms.
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I believe what DS friend meant is the motivation of the 4 types of beings.
Ordinary beings who are concerned with :
1. happiness of present life.
2. happiness of future lives.
3. happiness of self liberation
4. happiness of enlightenment.
While we may hold such aspirations, we may not be practicing correctly to have commensurate results. If our purification is not effective , or our merits are exhausted, we can still fall into lower realms.
Yes, it is in terms of the motivation of beings being referred to.
Besides classifying beings based on motivation, beings can also be classified based on:
A) 4 Modes of birth:
Born via the womb, born via the form of an egg, born via moisture, born via spontaneously (ghosts and heavenly beings)
B) 4 suffering states (as a result of committing negative actions):
animals, demons, hungry ghosts, hell beings
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Victorious over the four types of being who, though they are proud to be counted among Buddhists, have fallen into the crevasse of inferior views
In Guide to the Middle Way Chandrakirti states that those who do not hold the Prasangika view will fall into the two extremes of existence and non-existence. They will perform impure actions which in the end lead them to the sufferings of countless future lives. Compared to the supreme view of the Prasangika, other views held by the four types of proponents of Buddhist tenets are regarded as inferior, and those who hold them have fallen into the 'crevasse' of either of the two extremes. This way of understanding makes perfect sense to me in the context of the Kangso sadhana.
SB
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Thank you for the very learned sharing on this thread.
The posting by SM about Vaibashikas, Sautantrikas, Chittamatrins and Madhyamika Svatantrikas is very interesting. It is explained by SB that these are the 4 lower schools. However, I would like to clarify: How does that link to Hinayana? Does it link at all?
Thank you in advance for your patience towards this "anti-climax" question.
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The posting by SM about Vaibashikas, Sautantrikas, Chittamatrins and Madhyamika Svatantrikas is very interesting. It is explained by SB that these are the 4 lower schools. However, I would like to clarify: How does that link to Hinayana? Does it link at all?
Hi shugdenprotect,
It is said that the first two of the four schools - Vaibashika and Sautantrika - are so-called Hinayana schools whereas the latter two - Chittamatra and Madhyamika - are considered to be Mahayana schools. From my understanding they are divided in this way because Buddha mainly taught the first two during his first turning the Wheel of Dharma when he expounded teachings that principally form the basis for the Hinayana. During his second and third turning the Wheel of Dharma he mainly taught the latter two, when expounding teachings that principally form the basis for the Mahayana.
Best wishes,
SB
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The posting by SM about Vaibashikas, Sautantrikas, Chittamatrins and Madhyamika Svatantrikas is very interesting. It is explained by SB that these are the 4 lower schools. However, I would like to clarify: How does that link to Hinayana? Does it link at all?
Hi shugdenprotect,
It is said that the first two of the four schools - Vaibashika and Sautantrika - are so-called Hinayana schools whereas the latter two - Chittamatra and Madhyamika - are considered to be Mahayana schools. From my understanding they are divided in this way because Buddha mainly taught the first two during his first turning the Wheel of Dharma when he expounded teachings that principally form the basis for the Hinayana. During his second and third turning the Wheel of Dharma he mainly taught the latter two, when expounding teachings that principally form the basis for the Mahayana.
Best wishes,
SB
Thank you everyone for patiently answering my question
SB: does that mean enlightenment is not possible without tantra?
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Hi DD,
I believe that Enlightenment is completely impossible without realising the Prasangika view of emptiness - at the deepest level of mind. To realise this deepest level of mind which is the mind of clear light, I believe we must rely upon the methods of Tantra, definitely.
It is for this reason that Duldzin Dorje Shugden appears the way he does, with a sword in his right hand and a heart in his left. The sword is telling us that he helps us cut the root of ignorance - grasping at inherent existence - and the heart is telling us that he helps us generate a mind of great compassion and clear light of bliss. In other words he is showing us that we need both wings of method and wisdom, in order to fly to the enlightened world.
SB
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Hi DD,
I believe that Enlightenment is completely impossible without realising the Prasangika view of emptiness - at the deepest level of mind. To realise this deepest level of mind which is the mind of clear light, I believe we must rely upon the methods of Tantra, definitely.
It is for this reason that Duldzin Dorje Shugden appears the way he does, with a sword in his right hand and a heart in his left. The sword is telling us that he helps us cut the root of ignorance - grasping at inherent existence - and the heart is telling us that he helps us generate a mind of great compassion and clear light of bliss. In other words he is showing us that we need both wings of method and wisdom, in order to fly to the enlightened world.
SB
Beautiful! Thanks for your words of wisdom. :)
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Yes it is wonderful SB can share dharma with us like a dharma student and not just bash and berade lamas.
This is what I welcome on this forum.
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Thank you Small Being for your indepth answers and Dharma Defender for posting the question. I do the prayers everyday without realising there are so much that I don't know.
I really enjoy learning in this way.
Thank you again to everyone for making this a great DS hub filled with knowledge.
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Dear SB, thank you so very much for the precise explanation. Your explanation in addition to your respond to DD makes me feel and realize again how fortunate many of us are to have "access" to the Prasangika view and the protection of The Great King - Dultzin Dorje Shugden!
I pray that we will all practice well so that we will not waste this "access". Afterall, whether we succeed in our journey towards liberation is completely within our control based on our choices and actions.
Thank you again!!!
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Hi DD,
I believe that Enlightenment is completely impossible without realising the Prasangika view of emptiness - at the deepest level of mind. To realise this deepest level of mind which is the mind of clear light, I believe we must rely upon the methods of Tantra, definitely.
It is for this reason that Duldzin Dorje Shugden appears the way he does, with a sword in his right hand and a heart in his left. The sword is telling us that he helps us cut the root of ignorance - grasping at inherent existence - and the heart is telling us that he helps us generate a mind of great compassion and clear light of bliss. In other words he is showing us that we need both wings of method and wisdom, in order to fly to the enlightened world.
SB
Thank you Small Being for your sharing of this explanation. I have followed this forum for sometime and am glad that I can learn so much here. We are so lucky to have Dorje Shugden who cuts the root of our ignorance and helps us generate a mind of great compassion and clear light of bliss. With the right method and wisdom, we can reach enlightenment. How fortunate we are and how kind of Dorje Shugden!!!
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Hi DD,
I believe that Enlightenment is completely impossible without realising the Prasangika view of emptiness - at the deepest level of mind. To realise this deepest level of mind which is the mind of clear light, I believe we must rely upon the methods of Tantra, definitely.
It is for this reason that Duldzin Dorje Shugden appears the way he does, with a sword in his right hand and a heart in his left. The sword is telling us that he helps us cut the root of ignorance - grasping at inherent existence - and the heart is telling us that he helps us generate a mind of great compassion and clear light of bliss. In other words he is showing us that we need both wings of method and wisdom, in order to fly to the enlightened world.
SB
Thank you for response SB, and for the additional explanation of Dorje Shugden's body which I have always been taught is the lamrim in visual form. Having said that, I've also been taught the heart is the heart of our real enemy, which is ignorance.
So with the Hinayana and Mahayana views, only a certain level of attainment is possible, for example up to a certain level of bodhisattva? I don't mean to sound sarky and I do find your explanation logical, but what is the basis / source for your belief that enlightenment is not possible without tantra? You know, just in case I have to quote it for someone's benefit...
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Hi DD,
Thanks for your post. What is DS heart? Uprooting ignorance sounds like a very nice explanation to me. Regarding Mahayana views: Tantra is part of the Mahayana. The whole point in practicing Tantra is to realize the Prasangika view at the deepest level of mind. Only then we can truly overcome self-grasping and its imprints. If you ask why? Because it's been taught so. Joking! It also makes sense as there is no mention of deeper levels of mind in Sutra, and no mention on how to overcome ignorance at deeper levels of mind. So we need Tantra. If you ask for scriptural reference, then - if you like a fresh presentation, I would like to refer you to books such as Mahamudra Tantra by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. If you like it more traditional, then probably Je Tsongkhapa's Stages of the Path of Secret Mantra would be a good read.
Best wishes,
SB
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I don't quite fully agree that Enlightenment is only possible with Tantra. Why? Buddha Shakyamuni achieved enlightenment without Tantra. He only taught Tantra as a method which he found to be suitable to a select group of students. Not all Buddhas are going to teach Tantra by the way... The next Buddha, Maitreya is only going to teach Sutra. Enlightenment is definitely possible using Sutric methods but the time required to achieve the same goal is far longer. So, the practice of Tantra is a matter of speed, effort and affinity as well.
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Hi Big Uncle,
I agree with you when you say that Tantra is 'a matter of speed, effort and affinity' but would like to contradict when you state that Enlightenment is possible by Sutra methods alone. Would like to quote from 'Tantric Grounds and Paths' by Geshe Kelsang which illuminates the point I am trying to make:
A direct realization of emptiness with a gross mind does not have the power to overcome the subtle dualistic appearances associated with the minds of white appearance, red increase and black near-attainment. The only way to abandon these subtle dualistic appearances is to realize emptiness directly with a very subtle mind of clear light. Since the methods for manifesting and using the very subtle mind of clear light are explained only in Tantra, anyone who wishes to attain Buddhahood definitely needs to enter this path.
'Anyone' also refers Sutra Bodhisattvas on the 10th ground.
Best wishes,
SB