dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmaDefender on September 20, 2010, 07:42:31 AM
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I've just been reading A saint in Seattle: the life of the Tibetan mystic Dezhung Rinpoche and came across this quote:
After this, he reconsecrated the chapel to the deity Beg tse. He defied Shugs ldan to take revenge. When nothing happened, the frightened monks lost their faith in Shugs ldan and accepted the new protective deity.
It's the kind of thing anti-Shugden practitioners will quote to show Dorje Shugden is a vengeful spirit. But really, the cycle of misinformation and misunderstanding continues because surely:
(1) that Dorje Shugden didn't take revenge shows he hasn't got the ego of being slighted
(2) the fact the monks were frightened he would take revenge, and then lost their faith demonstrates they did not know why they were propitiating Dorje Shugden to begin with. Without a good understanding of a practice, and without having set your motivation, of course your commitment to it is going to waver like that.
It saddens me to read all this negative information about Dorje Shugden (just type in 'rDo rje shugs ldan' and see what I mean), especially when it is used next to the term 'cult' when it is clearly not.
(1) a cult is characterised by the embracement of something new, or a scripture or teaching that has been completely lost or forgotten...but Dorje Shugden is not something new, or something that has been completely lost or forgotten. It is a practice that has been around for 350 years which, granted, is relatively new compared to other practices like say, the Heart Sutra but new isn't negative. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's any less effective or beneficial. It could mean we didn't have the merit for the practice to be revealed to us much earlier; it wasn't the time for the practice to grow.
(2) a cult is more likely to be led by a charismatic leader (of the Rev Jim Jones variety)...but Pabongka is nothing like that. Yes, he is charismatic but we don't worship Pabongka Rinpoche; we aren't slaves hanging on to his every word. We practise guru devotion towards him, much like other students all over the world practise guru devotion to their teachers.
(3) a cult often integrates elements of existing religious theologies. They are also more likely to combine many sources to form more esoteric theologies...but Dorje Shugden's practice is not synthesised from many sources. It comes from one source, under Lama Tsongkhapa's throne. Even if you want to argue that it comes from more than one source (Tagphu Pemavajra, Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche etc), what distinguishes this lineage from the lineage of other practices? Nothing, it's still from teacher to student, like other practices. Likewise, the sources are verifiable and authentic, and the level of esotericism in Dorje Shugden's practice is no more than any other practice.
Some people need to pick up a dictionary!
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i would say from the lack of replies you've hit the nail on the head.
DS = not a cult
DS = not a spirit
DS = not for people who don't investigate for themselves fact from fiction
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I guess with the ban / controversy we will all get to see who are the true practitioners and believers in Dorje Shugden and who are really into superstition and cult following.
Perhaps this is a time when we get to seive through the chaff from the real deal - so-to-speak.
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Dear Dharma Defender,
I was quite shocked to read what you posted from Saint in Seattle - it is so illogical that if Dorje Shugden didn't take revenge, the monks lost faith. I really hope that this did not really happen. I would think that monks would have more knowledge than that. Sad.
Thanks for your sharing re cult. Your points clearly explain why Dorje Shugden practice is not a cult. i think that many people don't even know what defines a cult so your post will clarify matters.
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(1) a cult is characterised by the embracement of something new, or a scripture or teaching that has been completely lost or forgotten...but Dorje Shugden is not something new, or something that has been completely lost or forgotten. It is a practice that has been around for 350 years which, granted, is relatively new compared to other practices like say, the Heart Sutra but new isn't negative. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's any less effective or beneficial. It could mean we didn't have the merit for the practice to be revealed to us much earlier; it wasn't the time for the practice to grow.
This is why lineage is so very key and important to ensuring that our lineage and the teachings we receive are authentic. This is a key point in Buddhist teachings. Just as you have said, cults are often characterised by teachings of something new (i.e. unfounded, with no authentic lineage - what? did someone just make this up?!) or on something that has been lost (i.e. there is no longer any lineage, and is therefore subject to being misinterpreted or again "made up".)
The very fact that all Dorje Shugden practitioners also practice the Lamrim (in fact, this is a prerequisite of a successful DS practice) proves that it is NOT a cult - the lamrim is based entirely on logic and a very traceable, authentic lineage... unless you doubt Lama Tsongkhapa, Atisha, and all the indian masters before him!
I believe another characteristic of cults is the way they deny followers from questioning since it is (like you also pointed out) based entirely upon a charismatic leader. Again, DS practitioners in monasteries (and in lay dharma centres everywhere else) are always encouraged in the practices of debate and learning and study. The very foundation of this practice is in questioning, debate, logic. How can this be cultish in any way?
I would like to understand more about HOW people come to consider DS a cult - what is the reasoning behind their claims? (I'd like to know their reasons so we can counter them). So far, all I hear is that "It is a cult" but the arguments stops there and there is no explanation why they make that claim. All very illogical and rhetorical.
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I would like to understand more about HOW people come to consider DS a cult - what is the reasoning behind their claims? (I'd like to know their reasons so we can counter them). So far, all I hear is that "It is a cult" but the arguments stops there and there is no explanation why they make that claim. All very illogical and rhetorical.
Dear beggar
Basically they have no rightful claims.
1) I think one of the reasons why people is claiming DS as a cult is that they are riding on the assumption that DS is a spirit and so he must be evil. So it is based on WRONG ASSUMPTION WITHOUT CORRECT FINDINGS of how DS arose as a Dharma protector.
2) The other reason I could think of is that it is so easy to call DS a cult as a "defamation" for further people to follow and do DS practice. This is to create doubt in people's mind. Their motive may be due to POLITICAL REASON.
And thank you Dharma defendar for clarifying "CULT". And I also wonder what kind of monks are those who gave up DS as a deity and the practice so easily just because DS would not take revenge? Truely sad and I don't know what kind of Buddhadharma they are taking refuge in??
Triesa
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It is rather sad to see this being mentioned but remember, Dezhung Rinpoche is an incarnate Lama of the Sakya order and if you look at the tradition's checkered history in relations to Dorje Shugden practice. The Sakyas were the first to embrace Dorje Shugden as a Dharma protector. Much scriptural evidence reveals that they regarded Dorje Shugden as an Enlightened Dharma Protector and not just a mere worldly protector. However, things changed over the last hundred years saw to degeneration of this practice as many Sakya Lamas and patriarchs seemed to have abandoned it. Dezhung Rinpoche is not unique of this trend within the Sakya school as even the patriarch Sakya Trizin have officially denounced this deity and practice.
Then HH the 16th Karmapa said: "There will come a time in the future that we will have to pray to this Protector" This is as written in H.E. Dagom Rinpoche's text. Many other lamas of other sects have also supported or even practised Dorje Shugden in the past such as the great Sakyapa master, Kunkhyen Ngawang Kunga Lodroe.? (Sachen Kunga Lodro is the forefather of the current Sakya Trizin!!!) --> http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-hh-the-th-karmapa-hwayue-[deGLdfwjH00].cfm
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I have been thinking about this subject of "cults" because it has become such a sensitive subject. A few bad apples had made any religious group subject to scrutiny and skepticism.
When we talk about the "cult" of Dorje Shugden, I think it will inevitably become mixed up with the subject of perceived cult-like behaviour within Buddhism as a whole, particular in the area of Guru devotion which is very misunderstood and often put through a lot of criticism. For example, I have read many damaging accounts of how even Geshe Kelsang Gyatso' organisation has been accused of being a cult.
So why is it that people think that way? I think that the biggest contributor to this perception are the students themselves - how we carry ourselves, speak about our teachers (or any practices), and how our practice is reflected. If we are nasty, rude people but we are so involved with our centre, people won't help but think, "what is this centre and guru teaching them?" Do we complain about our centre? Do we give the impression that our gurus are tyrants that make us do things we don't want to do / against our will? How do we reflect the teacher and the centre?
This is applicable for both the subject of guru devotion and also for this topic in this thread about the "cult" of dorje shugden. See, we don't look upon Trijang Rinpoche and think, "oh he must be in a cult" simply because his actions have brought so much benefit and reflect so much compassion that it will never cross our mind that he is doing anything at all negative. Can we do the same?
contemplatively yours, beggar
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I was reading this article, http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3880, which might shed some light over who is calling Dorje Shugden a 'cult'.
http://www.newsweek.com/1997/05/04/murder-in-a-monastery.html is the actual article from Newsweek (5 May 1997) - and it reports: "In the past year, the Dalai Lama, who met last week with Jewish leaders and Bill Clinton in Washington, has denounced the Shugden sect as a hostile faction and a crass, commercial cult"
It is quite ironic that this article quotes the Dalai Lama as saying that Shugden practitioners are stopping religious freedom!
"That cult is actually destroying the freedom of religious thought,"
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It's really illogical that when DS didn't take revenge, the monks abandoned the practice.
Wisdom Being, I share your feeling that it's sad that these "monks" are so easily shaken from their faith.
When these people brand the DS practice as "cult" without doing thorough investigation, it only shows :
1) they are lazy to check out, hence they just follow the crowd mentality . In this case since DL is a world renown Buddhist leader , it'd be easier to just follow whatever DL says.
2) they lack the intelligence to discriminate right from wrong. Therefore safer to follow DL.
Well, to each his own. People have the right to choose their own practice, I only wish they don't brand and condemn DS practitioners so mindlessly.
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The high lamas, regent, Dalai Lama, Abbots, Panchen Lama, Sakya Trizin, Karmapa all prayed, did extensive rituals and pujas to Protectors Pelden Hlamo, Kalarupa, Mahakala, Chamsing-Begtse, Dorje Drolod, Nechung, Tenma and the likes in 1950-1959 for expelling the Red Army from Tibet..it didnt work and it still hasn't worked. Should we abandon all these deities also?
TK
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It's really illogical that when DS didn't take revenge, the monks abandoned the practice.
Wisdom Being, I share your feeling that it's sad that these "monks" are so easily shaken from their faith.
When these people brand the DS practice as "cult" without doing thorough investigation, it only shows :
1) they are lazy to check out, hence they just follow the crowd mentality . In this case since DL is a world renown Buddhist leader , it'd be easier to just follow whatever DL says.
2) they lack the intelligence to discriminate right from wrong. Therefore safer to follow DL.
Well, to each his own. People have the right to choose their own practice, I only wish they don't brand and condemn DS practitioners so mindlessly.
I like what you say about "don't brand and condemn DS practitioners". However, it's going to take quite a bit to change the views of others. Thus, being a sincere practitioner will reflect who our Protector is...that this is not a cultish practice.
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Sometimes, what works and not work depends on how we view at life and things.
No Buddhas can undo our karma. Let alone the karma of a whole nation.
Some things might take a lot of purification processes. While other things may require the right conditions to bear fruit.
In samsara, it seems to be very natural to develop delusions or deluded views. Because something did not happen according to how we may like or have prayed hard for, and so, we would deem it as bad or useless. we may even abandon the whole practice due to such deluded thoughts.
I remember reading a passage from Liberation In the Palm of Your Hand - "You lose both what you possess and have yet to acquire, and you gain great suffering."
Who is to say that the great number of prayers have not bore fruit? It might just be that the result is really for the best interest of the greater whole, even if it does not resemble it at that moment.
Who is to say that there could have been a fate much worse if the high lamas, the Regent, Dalai Lama did not pray at all?
If we should start to doubt the Three Jewels, then nothing the Buddha has said and taught is correct.
For how can the Three Jewels be right about some things and wrong about another. Perhaps we need to check deeper into our own minds.
Another of my favourite lines from the Lamrim -
Save me from doubt, that terrible ghost,
That cruel one who flies in a sky of utter blindness,
Who harms my yearning for conviction,
Who murders my liberation.
I shall quote from another beautiful paragraph from the Lamrim -
Our Tibet, the Land of Snows, has features not generally found in other countries; and the only root of our immediate and longterm happiness is Buddha's teachings. Whether or not these teachings still flourish is not due to our houses, population, or our colourful offerings; it depends on the ethics of the pratimoksha vows - the root of the teachings. If we do not have these ethics purely, it shows that our ethics have died out in our own mindstreams and our own share of the teachings have died out, even though externally the teachings may be widespread as the rocks and ground itself.
Whenever I read these lines, I am reminded to look at the bigger picture of life and people - beyond what I like or want to see.
And when I think further, I can't help but think that all the High Lamas' prayers worked - they did keep the Chinese Red Army out. Because Buddhism is not destroyed. In fact, it has flourished and gone out to the rest of the world.
Here, I see that Tibet is Buddhism and Buddhism is Tibet. As long as Buddhism lives on, Tibet lives on. Where there is Buddhism, there is Tibet.
In this respect, to me, Tibet is everywhere - not confined by the Himalayans, the great rivers and the skies or clouds. It is really free.
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The temporal situation in Tibet is a perfect example of impermanence. Every single country has evolved over time - there have been changes of geographical borders, changes of rulers, state religions and balances of power throughout history.
Tibet is no different.
The only way that Tibetan Buddhism will live on is not due to the geographical country but because of the sincerity of the lineage Masters and its practitioners. While we are living in degenerate times, Buddhism is on the decline and as prophesied, the teachings of Shakyamuni will come to an end, so let's not wait til Maitreya comes but let's go to Tushita heaven and seek Tsongkhapa, his disciples and Dorje Shugden before it's too late.
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Each and everyone of us have our own views and opinions due to our karma, imprints and perceptions. However, it is very sad to note that some people view Dorje Shugden as a 'cult' practice. How can praying to an enlightened being is considered a 'cult' practice?
Dorje Shugden would not take revenge showed us that He is an enlightened being. Yet the monks lost faith. It showed us how unstable their minds were and that their faith is not strong. And surprisingly, they have no knowledge whatsoever. They or all those non-practitioners who viewed Dorje Shugden as a 'cult' practice should check out and find out more and get their info right before they condemn the real and sincere practitioners mindlessly.
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Dorje Shugden School of buddhism may become a school of its own. Look at Shar Gaden now, the loyal monks who are DS practitioners broke out from Ganden Monastery, many high Lamas join in the new camp including the ex 101th Ganden Tripa, they held regular DS pujas there, I feel that the school of DS may flourish into something very unique, like another brand of buddhism, but not cultish though........
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You are right, triesa. Another school of Buddhism is arising. As we can very well see, Shar Gaden is one of them. Dorje Shugden will be the new age Buddha for new age practitioners. I feel that since Dorje Shugden is very swift in clearing our worldly obstacles, he protects us and grants our wishes so this practice will be more effective for people our time.
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Yes, look at Shar Gaden, even though the monks there cannot attend the tantric college of Gyuto and Gyume,
but they are studying tantra with their individual teachers at Shar Gaden, and many of the texts that are iememorized are tantric in nature, which is quite different from the other Gelug monasteries.
They also study tantra based on a text written by Panchen Sonam Drakpa on the 13 diety Yamantaka system, as well as a text by the 101st Gaden Tripa, Lungri Namgyal Rinpoche, based on the solitary hero Yamantaka system, as what I read form the thread "News from Shar Gaden"
Therefore, Shar Gaden has no choice but in time would develop their own systems of study because they cannot access to the tantric colleges.
Different circumstances calls for different methods, though without comprising the pure and traditional teachings.
So we are about to see a new brand of buddhism arising here through Dorije Shugden.
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As painful and challenging adversities are - they truly push us to a higher level. Because we are so comfortable in our own idea of security and convenience, we can become too stuck in that comfort zone. But once things are thrown up side down, inside out - then it leaves us no choice but to start thinking beyond our previously held ordinary levels of "performance".
Here, 'performance' is generalised into everything that we do, say and think.
They do say that in times of great uncertainty and challenges, ordinary things have the greatest chance of becoming so much more - if people actually see it that way and allow it to take place.
Unfortunately, because many are governed by fear, insecurity, sadness, etc - they become paralysed by these negativities. And instead of moving on and forging ahead, they just dwell on the negativities.
This is why I love the Dharma and the life story of Dorje Shugden. Our magnificent King Protector has never allowed challenges and adversity to define him.
In fact, Dorje Shugden re-defines everything else around him and can even make an oasis out of the desert.
To me, Dorje Shugden is the ultimate story of Hope. Living Hope. Hope in Action.
No matter what Dorje Shugden has been put through, he still rises like the sun - ever so bright, like a beacon cutting through the confusion and darkness.
If this is a 'cult', then may it be a cult that infects the rest of the world. Because people can't live without hope. Everyone needs hope to live on and to continue to dream.
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I was told by my Teacher that the protection and guidance we receive from holy beings and protectors does not necessarily take the form we anticipate or expect, but it is still protection for it is meant to protect the Dharma and those that walk by the Dharma and act to propitiate it.
I have wondered for a long time why Tibet was lost to "non-Dharmic forces", how could "evil" win, how could this "bad scenario" unfold otherwise?
Was it that the collective bad karma of the tibetans was too strong?
Or was it that the situation in Tibet offered a platform for the Dharma to grow global, for the Vajrayana teachings to operate from a tibetan diaspora of Perfect Teachers, teaching from the USA, from Europe, from India, Australia, etcetera...
What would it be of these teachings today without this diaspora and the world's attention that Tibetan cause and The Dalai Lama got for decades now?
Everyone in the develloped countries knows of The Dalai Lama, knows of tibetan buddhism, before they would even know the name of their own prime minister... I find this totally extra-ordinary, knowing that The Dalai Lama is actually Chenrezig.
And of course, now the situation also allows for Dorje Shugden to become world famous too.
This is also a remarquable example of how to turn problems into opportunities.
Evn us now here debating about Dorje Shugden, some call it a cult or what, participate to this effort to bring sentient beins to the LAMRIM.
This is skillful means in action. NEAT!
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I was told by my Teacher that the protection and guidance we receive from holy beings and protectors does not necessarily take the form we anticipate or expect, but it is still protection for it is meant to protect the Dharma and those that walk by the Dharma and act to propitiate it.
I have wondered for a long time why Tibet was lost to "non-Dharmic forces", how could "evil" win, how could this "bad scenario" unfold otherwise?
Was it that the collective bad karma of the tibetans was too strong?
Or was it that the situation in Tibet offered a platform for the Dharma to grow global, for the Vajrayana teachings to operate from a tibetan diaspora of Perfect Teachers, teaching from the USA, from Europe, from India, Australia, etcetera...
What would it be of these teachings today without this diaspora and the world's attention that Tibetan cause and The Dalai Lama got for decades now?
I agree with you hope rainbow. Due to our own ignorance, we cannot really judge whether certain incident/ event/ happening is good or bad, and choose to only see something through our own perception/ judgement. I remember being told that whether it is good or bad karma, it is not the condition of the situation, but rather the results of it.
There are wiser beings out there who have the ability to judge better, if we do not believe in clairvoyance, at least we can believe that they have a better grasp of the law of cause & effect and the reality of things due to their studies. How can so many great masters of the Gelug lineage who has returned again and again be wrong?
Also, it s characteristic of a cult to unquestioningly follow a charismatic leader and to have no freedom as to what to practice. If I choose to believe Dalai Lama's words without examining it, then I am in the Dalai Lama's "cult". Dalai Lama has been inconsistent with his reasons to ban Shugden and did not want to discuss the real reason behind it despite appearls and protests.
On the other hand, many great masters continue to practice, upholding their promise to their Guru and propogating the lineage. Dorje Shugden is not a cult, because there are many great masters who expound the benefitsof the practice - and it is not the ONLY practice of the "cult", it is a side practice that supports the main practice of Lamrim studies, and other practices of the Gelugpa lineage.
So now, do I choose to be in the Dalai Lama's "cult" and say that Shugden practitioners are in a cult?
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I have wondered for a long time why Tibet was lost to "non-Dharmic forces", how could "evil" win, how could this "bad scenario" unfold otherwise?
Or was it that the situation in Tibet offered a platform for the Dharma to grow global, for the Vajrayana teachings to operate from a tibetan diaspora of Perfect Teachers, teaching from the USA, from Europe, from India, Australia, etcetera...
The loss of Tibet to China has indirectly opened up Tibetan Buddhism to the whole world. The esscense of Vajrayana has since penetrated into the lives of many followers and benefitted many practitioners, thanks to the invasion of the Chinese Red Army into the once barbaric land of Tibet. So the loss of Tibet is actually a very good cause to spread buddhism, to reach out to a bigger and wider audience.
Like what Hope Rainbow said, problems became opportunities.
Dorje Shugden is not a "Cult" simply becasue the propitiation of this great protector leads one to the study of Lamrim, which is the essence of all buddha's teachings. The practice od Dorje Shugden only helps to clear the wordly obstacles that may hinder our spiritual path. So like what Vajraprotector said, would you :) :) like to stay in the Dalai Lama's "cult" or the Dorje Shugden's "cult"?
My answer is ..... I would stay in the Dorje Shugden's "Cult". :)
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I am in no cult in the sense that I am not taking refuge in an "outside power", in a "charismatic leader" or a "god".
I am taking refuge in the Buddhas, Dharma and Sangha,
I am taking refuge in my Guru devotion,
I a taking refuge in the Lamrim -gateway to the teachings that can free my mind from selfishness.
This is no cult; this leads one to liberation, not to endoctrination or enslavement, this is the opposite of a cult, it is light as opposed to darkness, it is wisdom as opposed to ignorance, it is compassion as opposed to selfishness.
The devotion to my guru is the opposite of a cult, for it has the aim for me to find my inner guru and not depend on my guru anymore.
And as a practitioner of Dorje Shugden, I rely upon the protection and guidance of a Buddha with whom I have strong affinities for quick progress on my journey to full enlightenment.
We are here talking about the dynamics of compassion at play, not of the dynamic of a "cult".
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Yeah to the 'cult' of compassion!
Yeah to the 'cult' of wisdom!
wisdom so that compassion is not limited.
compassion so that wisdom is beneficial to others.
wisdom so that we don't fool ourselves.
compassion so that we can expand our mind to encompass all space and all beings.
both so that we can get rid of sellfishness.
Dorje Shugen can show us the way.
Where is the "cult to Dorje Shugden" in this? I don't see it...
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We are the Kadampa's old and new, Gelugpa's, pure ones through and through.
Untainted by political Degeneracy.
Inspired by this and our outcasting practise purely and use these circustances to accomplish the most profound goals. :)
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Yeah to the 'cult' of compassion!
Yeah to the 'cult' of wisdom!
wisdom so that compassion is not limited.
compassion so that wisdom is beneficial to others.
wisdom so that we don't fool ourselves.
compassion so that we can expand our mind to encompass all space and all beings.
both so that we can get rid of sellfishness.
Dorje Shugen can show us the way.
Dear HR,
I truly love what you wrote here.
What an uplifting post to read before the weekend, and after a long spell of non-stop hectic working week.
If there is really a cult of Dorje Shugden that exists - it is truly a cult that cuts self-cherishing of all manners and sins.
And if this selflessness is to be labelled as cultish or a cult - then it is certainly a cult that we all do need very badly.
Thank you for your beautiful words.
Have a wonderful weekend, everyone.
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It is interesting to consider the many definitions of cult in the first place. And quite strange how people get very paranoid about this concept of "kowtowing" to another being / deity.
Actually, the whole world is already in a cult: the cult of ME. Everyone already has some kind of devotion TO THEMSELVES and to all those things that keep us chained to ourselves. The whole world of advertising, media, glossy magazines, television is a big, giant cult that everyone is a part of. People are slaves to fashion - they even admit it! People are 100% dependent on their self-help manuals (but this is okay because it is marketed as something trendy).
People are totally fanatical about movie stars and pop stars who don't really give them anything of real value. People literally worship these idols - if this movie star decides to wear this brand of clothes, then his/her entire following will also start to wear that brand of clothes. If that isn't cultish and following something blindly, then I don't know what is.
Sometimes, it's not even a person or animate object that people are cultish towards - sometimes, people are in cults of objects - cars, property, jewellery, clothes.. THINGS in general. We give our lives over entirely to inanimate objects - they can make our day or break our day.
People are "cultish" in their behaviour for something so much less. And for something as great as wisdom, compassion, enlightenment, people get very worried and paranoid about being in a "cult" and having to following the advice and direction of another person. How silly and limited we are!
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I've just been reading A saint in Seattle: the life of the Tibetan mystic Dezhung Rinpoche and came across this quote:
After this, he reconsecrated the chapel to the deity Beg tse. He defied Shugs ldan to take revenge. When nothing happened, the frightened monks lost their faith in Shugs ldan and accepted the new protective deity.
It's the kind of thing anti-Shugden practitioners will quote to show Dorje Shugden is a vengeful spirit. But really, the cycle of misinformation and misunderstanding continues because surely:
(1) that Dorje Shugden didn't take revenge shows he hasn't got the ego of being slighted
(2) the fact the monks were frightened he would take revenge, and then lost their faith demonstrates they did not know why they were propitiating Dorje Shugden to begin with. Without a good understanding of a practice, and without having set your motivation, of course your commitment to it is going to waver like that.
It saddens me to read all this negative information about Dorje Shugden (just type in 'rDo rje shugs ldan' and see what I mean), especially when it is used next to the term 'cult' when it is clearly not.
(1) a cult is characterised by the embracement of something new, or a scripture or teaching that has been completely lost or forgotten...but Dorje Shugden is not something new, or something that has been completely lost or forgotten. It is a practice that has been around for 350 years which, granted, is relatively new compared to other practices like say, the Heart Sutra but new isn't negative. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's any less effective or beneficial. It could mean we didn't have the merit for the practice to be revealed to us much earlier; it wasn't the time for the practice to grow.
(2) a cult is more likely to be led by a charismatic leader (of the Rev Jim Jones variety)...but Pabongka is nothing like that. Yes, he is charismatic but we don't worship Pabongka Rinpoche; we aren't slaves hanging on to his every word. We practise guru devotion towards him, much like other students all over the world practise guru devotion to their teachers.
(3) a cult often integrates elements of existing religious theologies. They are also more likely to combine many sources to form more esoteric theologies...but Dorje Shugden's practice is not synthesised from many sources. It comes from one source, under Lama Tsongkhapa's throne. Even if you want to argue that it comes from more than one source (Tagphu Pemavajra, Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche etc), what distinguishes this lineage from the lineage of other practices? Nothing, it's still from teacher to student, like other practices. Likewise, the sources are verifiable and authentic, and the level of esotericism in Dorje Shugden's practice is no more than any other practice.
Some people need to pick up a dictionary!
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Seems like the forum decided to eat my comments. Sigh.
I've just been reading A saint in Seattle: the life of the Tibetan mystic Dezhung Rinpoche and came across this quote:
After this, he reconsecrated the chapel to the deity Beg tse. He defied Shugs ldan to take revenge. When nothing happened, the frightened monks lost their faith in Shugs ldan and accepted the new protective deity.
My question is, what is a sakya lama doing in trying to oust a Gelug Dharma protector? And if the monks were stable in their Dharma practice, why would they be afraid of anything in the first place? Why is there a need to oust Dorje Shugden from wherever he is "residing" in? Perhaps this Lama was just trying to show off his attainments?
It's the kind of thing anti-Shugden practitioners will quote to show Dorje Shugden is a vengeful spirit. But really, the cycle of misinformation and misunderstanding continues because surely:
(1) that Dorje Shugden didn't take revenge shows he hasn't got the ego of being slighted
I'm still surprised that nobody saw this.
(2) the fact the monks were frightened he would take revenge, and then lost their faith demonstrates they did not know why they were propitiating Dorje Shugden to begin with. Without a good understanding of a practice, and without having set your motivation, of course your commitment to it is going to waver like that.
If they gave up Dorje Shugden so easily, it shows that they have no Guru devotion. If they have no Guru devotion, then whatever protector practice that they did would be ineffective. Who else would give them the protector practice but their Gurus? Since that is the case, it is perhaps good riddance that they stopped the protector practice and become a bad example for many.
It saddens me to read all this negative information about Dorje Shugden (just type in 'rDo rje shugs ldan' and see what I mean), especially when it is used next to the term 'cult' when it is clearly not.
The word cult can come to mean any organized religion at all.
cult
? ?[kuhlt] Show IPA
noun
1.
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3.
the object of such devotion.
4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.
Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
So, lets not get overly attached to words even if this one has a negative connotation.
(1) a cult is characterised by the embracement of something new, or a scripture or teaching that has been completely lost or forgotten...but Dorje Shugden is not something new, or something that has been completely lost or forgotten. It is a practice that has been around for 350 years which, granted, is relatively new compared to other practices like say, the Heart Sutra but new isn't negative. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's any less effective or beneficial. It could mean we didn't have the merit for the practice to be revealed to us much earlier; it wasn't the time for the practice to grow.
Dorje Shugden practice is neither old nor new, but a cult basically implies that the specific practice or religious branch is harmful. But is that the case with Dorje Shugden? Of course not. Then how can it be a cult?
(2) a cult is more likely to be led by a charismatic leader (of the Rev Jim Jones variety)...but Pabongka is nothing like that. Yes, he is charismatic but we don't worship Pabongka Rinpoche; we aren't slaves hanging on to his every word. We practise guru devotion towards him, much like other students all over the world practise guru devotion to their teachers.
I dont think we worship Pabongkha Rinpoche in that way. Pabongkha Rinpoche is the forefather of the current generation of Gelug masters and we respect him and his attainments as such. Worshipping Pabongkha is studying the Lamrim and putting it into practice. We are not "worshipping" Pabongkha per se. So how can it be a cult?
(3) a cult often integrates elements of existing religious theologies. They are also more likely to combine many sources to form more esoteric theologies...but Dorje Shugden's practice is not synthesised from many sources. It comes from one source, under Lama Tsongkhapa's throne. Even if you want to argue that it comes from more than one source (Tagphu Pemavajra, Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche etc), what distinguishes this lineage from the lineage of other practices? Nothing, it's still from teacher to student, like other practices. Likewise, the sources are verifiable and authentic, and the level of esotericism in Dorje Shugden's practice is no more than any other practice.
Dorje Shugden is Gelug and Gelug is famous for logic and reasoning. Therefore, all of Gelug's teachings including Dorje Shugden can be debated and proven upon. Again, how can that be a cult?
Some people need to pick up a dictionary!
It's really just words and how it is phrased...
Sometimes, I feel that those from the other lineages should not criticize Dorje Shugden. Why? because they are not Gelug, they do not understand the practice and more importantly, they will never get his practice so it is none of their business. So why get involved, unless you are insecure of your own tradition and attainments, that a Gelug only protector can harm you? Hmmmmm
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Dear beggar, you are so wise to point out that we are all in one big cult and yet not realize it. Then some get very paranoid when someone mentioned to them they are practicing a religion which someone else label a cult. It's about time we open our eyes and mind to see and decide for ourselves what is being told to us. It is also very important to listen to one's Guru, for we know a Guru's sole intention is to guide us to enlightenment. I am so thankful to this website for all the news and information to help me decide if want to continue with my DS practice or not. I am going with DS all the way.
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On my personal thoughts on a cult or not, every religious movement can basically be labelled as a cult, depending on motivation and context. Since the definition of a cult is a religious movement that focuses of a certain doctrine or philosophy, or a deity figure, no religion is excluded from the identification as a cult. In layman's terms, the word cult is used to describe a religious movement that is perceived as harmful, or has done harm to others in any way, shape or form which is why that word is never used to describe religions. As Dorje Shugden practitioners, we should have seen this coming, we have chosen to accept the discriminations and nasty things that come from detractors of Dorje Shugden, the day we chose to have a Lama that practices Dorje Shugden, so why should we be sensitive about it or even care? It is just part and parcel of being a Dorje Shugden practitioner, it does not mean that the discriminations should happen in the first place, it just means that we have to be prepared for such comments directed at us. Nobody is free from criticism, including the Dalai Lama and the Buddha, so what about us and Dorje Shugden?
Over the years, I have read so many articles about Dorje Shugden, both for and against and I have come to one conclusion: people's opinions on Dorje Shugden does not matter at all, because it is results that matters at the end of the day and secondly, our faith and who we chose to believe in is a very personal matter and if they cannot respect that, too bad for them. All of the articles against Dorje Shugden are based on nothing but opinions and inferences, while the pro Dorje Shugden articles are based on traceable historical accounts and facts. Nothing can shake my faith in Dorje Shugden except for my Guru, because my faith in my Guru is higher than anyone else, and since Dorje Shugden's connection with me was only possible via my Guru, it only makes sense that the only reason for me to give him up (although it would be difficult) would be for him to tell me to give up the practice. I doubt my Guru will ever do that.
What I'm saying is, dont let the detractors get to you, because they're not responsible for your spiritual salvation, you are.
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If Dorje Shugden practice was a cult then we might as well classify the whole entire Buddhist pantheon a "cult" as well! Heck we might as well say that the entire world's religion a cult as well. What about Scientology which is even newer and does not even have any lineage to begin with.
This seems to be common comment of those anti-shugden groups that are narrow in view and doesn't have much basis to support their argument except for a few gossip words that describes the ignorance of those through how they "felt" but not through logic.
After this, he reconsecrated the chapel to the deity Beg tse. He defied Shugs ldan to take revenge. When nothing happened, the frightened monks lost their faith in Shugs ldan and accepted the new protective deity.
I do not get this at all... Dorje Shugden is a Boddhisattva so how can a Boddisattva ever take any revenge... if Dorje Shugden did take revenge then we really got something to question and worry about... obviously that is not the case. And why would monks who has taken on so many vows be afraid of a so-caled "spirit". Doesn't that show that they have not even taken refuge... then what is the point in becoming a monk let alone a Buddhist?
So I will not even bother to entertain such a comment because it is simply baseless and childish. I really think these people really need to chant Om Ara Padsa Nadhi before they make such pointless comments.
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The monks may have lost faith in Dorje Shugden partly because the person who had dared to turn the Shugden chapel into the chapel of another deity, was someone they highly revered: the mystic Dezhung Rinpoche. They were just simple minded enough to think that Dezhung Rinpoche was proven correct in his seemingly unholy action when they weren't punished for it.
Beyond the reasons already given in this thread why the practice of Dorje Shugden is not a cult, I would like to add that this practice by the Gelugpas has a lineage(passed from teacher to student) starting with Tagphu Pemavajra who passed it to Pabongka Rinpoche. Pabongka Rinpoche passed it to Trijang Rinpoche who in turn passed it on to his heart sons like Zong Rinpoche, and so on. All of these illustrious Masters have seen their incarnations coming back and many of these incarnations have defied the ban to continue to practice Dorje Shugden. Among them are the current incarnations of Trijang Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche and Zemey Rinpoche. All these great masters and many more continue to compassionately spread the practice of Shugden to benefit the beings of this degenerate age. For undoubtedly, the supramundane Protector Shugden is THE Protector of this age, sworn to protect Je Tsongkapa's teachings which are so necessary for these times.
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The monks may have lost faith in Dorje Shugden partly because the person who had dared to turn the Shugden chapel into the chapel of another deity, was someone they highly revered: the mystic Dezhung Rinpoche. They were just simple minded enough to think that Dezhung Rinpoche was proven correct in his seemingly unholy action when they weren't punished for it.
If people have little or no faith to the protector, why would they even worship him in the first place? Clearly, some people are easily taken in by big names and big lamas, and not anything at all to Dharma and their practices. It goes to prove that these practitioners are of the lower quality variety.
Beyond the reasons already given in this thread why the practice of Dorje Shugden is not a cult, I would like to add that this practice by the Gelugpas has a lineage(passed from teacher to student) starting with Tagphu Pemavajra who passed it to Pabongka Rinpoche. Pabongka Rinpoche passed it to Trijang Rinpoche who in turn passed it on to his heart sons like Zong Rinpoche, and so on. All of these illustrious Masters have seen their incarnations coming back and many of these incarnations have defied the ban to continue to practice Dorje Shugden. Among them are the current incarnations of Trijang Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche and Zemey Rinpoche. All these great masters and many more continue to compassionately spread the practice of Shugden to benefit the beings of this degenerate age. For undoubtedly, the supramundane Protector Shugden is THE Protector of this age, sworn to protect Je Tsongkapa's teachings which are so necessary for these times.
To me, you dont need to see far to know that Dorje Shugden is good. It is very simple: How many people had their prayers answered and how many Lamas who practice him all soar high in their spiritual practice? How many Dorje Shugden Lamas have "fallen" or degenerated? This does not count tulkus whose previous students have broken their samaya in glee for the sake of being politically correct. From that alone, is it too hard to believe that Dorje Shugden is bad if you are Gelugpa? If you're not Gelugpa, why are you even commenting on a Gelug protector? This is what I feel, anyway.
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If you google the true meaning of cult actually it does not mean anything. A cult basically is a group of people gather together in believing the same thing. If Dorje Shugden is a cult, then Buddhsim as whole is a cult, if Buddhism is a cult; then the rest of the religious is a cult too! It is just us use the word too lightly and associate with something negative. After all, they are just labels.
My point is that, they have been using negative wordings to describe the practice of Dorje Shugden but come out with evidence so does it mean that Dorje Shugden only have positive evidence? If not then why only label and say things badly? What about other useful good information. I don't believe that this website don't grow for nothing, i am sure there are more than just Dorje Shugden practitioners read this website to gather more information. Since they are acquiring more information, then why deny these valid evidence?
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Just to add to this discussion - the world is practising the cult of the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama declares Dorje Shugden as a spirit and bans his practice without a shred of logical explanation or reasoning. And the whole world follows. Nobody questions why the Dalai Lama has declared this except the die-hard Dorje Shugden practitioners like Kundeling RInpoche. The majority of the monasteries kow towed to the Dalai Lama - perhaps due to lack of choice. The ones that stood steadfast by their practice started the new Shugden monasteries of Serpom and Shar Gaden. They also give excellent reasons why they kept their practice.
If you want to talk about cult as something that is a devotion to a belief which is illogical, then the devotion to the ban of Dorje Shugden is more of a cult than Dorje Shugden itself!
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You are absolutely right. The ban of Shugden by the Dalai Lama displays a cult-ish act.
Below are some common characteristics to identify a group or organisation as a cult. Many of these points highlights what is currently happening with the ban.
Cults have a charismatic and controlling leader, who purportedly knows what God wants and demands.
Cults brainwash and indoctrinate their members.
Many of the pro Dalai Lama fans are brainwashed into thinking negatively of Dorje Shugden and turning against those who continues to practice Shugden.- Many of the pro Dalai Lama fans are brainwashed into thinking negatively of Dorje Shugden and turning against those who continues to practice Shugden.
Cults control members by making them dependent on the cult and instilling in them a sense of shame, guilt, and fear.
Practitioners gaved up Shugden practice for the fear of being ostracised and ex-communicated.
Cults do not allow questioning of their beliefs or practices.
No valid reasons are given and no freedom of choice in religious freedom
Cults claim to be the only true way to live and path to salvation.
If you practice Shugden, you will collect a lot of negative karma.
Cults have apocalyptic beliefs about the imminent end of the world.
If you practice Shugden, you will shorten HHDL's life. You are the cause of the downfall of Tibet.
Cults severely limit or completely cut off members’ access to and interaction with the outside world.
Children of Shugden practitioners are not allowed to attend schools, buy groceries, attend HHDL's teachings.
Cults retaliate against people who leave the group by punishing them with excommunication and/or ostracizing, physically harming, or taking legal action against them.
Monks are expelled from their monasteries, death threats to high lamas who continues to practice Shugden.
Cults engage in criminal behavior, such as rape or statutory rape, suicide, murder, abduction, and weapons stockpiling.
Cults exploit members financially.
These are just few examples. Feel free to add on.
So who is the real cult now?
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You are absolutely right. The ban of Shugden by the Dalai Lama displays a cult-ish act.
Below are some common characteristics to identify a group or organisation as a cult. Many of these points highlights what is currently happening with the ban.
Cults have a charismatic and controlling leader, who purportedly knows what God wants and demands.
Cults brainwash and indoctrinate their members.
Many of the pro Dalai Lama fans are brainwashed into thinking negatively of Dorje Shugden and turning against those who continues to practice Shugden.- Many of the pro Dalai Lama fans are brainwashed into thinking negatively of Dorje Shugden and turning against those who continues to practice Shugden.
Cults control members by making them dependent on the cult and instilling in them a sense of shame, guilt, and fear.
Practitioners gaved up Shugden practice for the fear of being ostracised and ex-communicated.
Cults do not allow questioning of their beliefs or practices.
No valid reasons are given and no freedom of choice in religious freedom
Cults claim to be the only true way to live and path to salvation.
If you practice Shugden, you will collect a lot of negative karma.
Cults have apocalyptic beliefs about the imminent end of the world.
If you practice Shugden, you will shorten HHDL's life. You are the cause of the downfall of Tibet.
Cults severely limit or completely cut off members’ access to and interaction with the outside world.
Children of Shugden practitioners are not allowed to attend schools, buy groceries, attend HHDL's teachings.
Cults retaliate against people who leave the group by punishing them with excommunication and/or ostracizing, physically harming, or taking legal action against them.
Monks are expelled from their monasteries, death threats to high lamas who continues to practice Shugden.
Cults engage in criminal behavior, such as rape or statutory rape, suicide, murder, abduction, and weapons stockpiling.
Cults exploit members financially.
These are just few examples. Feel free to add on.
So who is the real cult now?
No matter how you wanna see it, it does sound that the Dalai Lama's side of the story is more cultish as they seem to bind their followers to certain beliefs and mislead them based on misunderstandings and the like. That to me appears to be more cultlike. Also, has anyone noticed that it seems that nobody can question the Dalai Lama if you're at his side of the camp and if you do you're somehow evil or something? As much as the Dalai Lama have always welcomed people to question him, I have yet to see one of his followers doing so.
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Most of the people just go with the majority and never really think why. I must agree with the fact that Lord Dorje Shugden's practise is not suitable for those who don't investigate and think for themselves AND hurt the practitioners by calling their beliefs, their religion a cult.