dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Big Uncle on April 09, 2010, 05:01:45 PM
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Extracted from Wikipedia when I was searching for the meaning of "Gyalpo Spirits":-
In the Sakya branch of Tibetan Buddhism, the Gyalpo Sum (Wylie: rgyal-po gsum, "three king-spirits") are three spirits which were traditionally said to protect the main Sakya Monastery. These three are Tsiu Marpo, Dorje Setrap, and Gyalpo Shugden. In view of the modern controversy about Dorje Shudgen within the Gelug school, HH Sakya Trizin the head of Sakyas issued a letter in 1996 stating that some Sakyas worshipped Shugden as a lower deity but Shugden was never a part of the Sakya institutions.
ps: Tsiu Marpo is related or probably an older manifestation of Khache Marpo!
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Thank you for the information regarding the Gyalpo Sum. I'm not surprised that these three are worshipped together. Khache Marpo is Dorje Shugden's chief attendant and Lord Setrap's relationship with Dorje Shugden is like that of a brother. They are inseparable. Sometimes I wonder whether those who propitiate Setrap but reject Dorje Shugden have thought about this close relationship between the two great Dharmapalas.
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Tsiu Marpo is related or probably an older manifestation of Khache Marpo!
I cannot give a citation from any scripture but I am certain that Kache Marpo is a deity of recent origin. Most probably a former great mughal warlord.
Isn't he Kashmirian, by name at least?
I remember reading somewhere that the ten wrathful attendants of Shugden's mandala would have dresses of various tribes surrounding Tibet. Does anyone have info on them? (One of them seems to have a Pathan hat, being therefore from Afganistan in appearance.)
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I thought Kache is the name given by tibetans for tibetan muslims who came from kashmir and ladakh, Marpo means red?
I think the ten youthful and wrathful attendents are listed in the charts at the back of the heart jewel book.
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I thought Kache is the name given by tibetans for tibetan muslims who came from kashmir and ladakh, Marpo means red?
Ah yes, that was the Kashmir Connection. Thanks.
I think the ten youthful and wrathful attendents are listed in the charts at the back of the heart jewel book.
Yes, but sadly, there is no iconographic explanation there. (At least in the edition I have.)
It would be great if this web-site could have an iconography page, or article, explaining in detail all the gestures, implements and attributes of the monks, goddesses and attendants.
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Yes it would be nice to have a comprehensive resource about His retinue. Does anyone know of any more Tsen type attendants within Dorje's retinue in addition to Namkha and Kache?
It says in the blurb about 'Music delighting...' on this web site that within the tibetan text there are pujas and prayers to Kache Marpo and Namkha Barzin, has anyone read/translated these?
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Praises by the 5th Dalai Lama to Khache Marpo (Dorje Shugden’s minister)
“Praise to Yaksha Khache Marpo, the doctrine’s watchman”
Sources:
•ODT: Nebesky-Wojkowitz, Rene de. (1956). Oracles and demons of Tibet: the cult and iconography of the Tibetan protective deities. Mouton.
•WCD: Dung dkar blo bzang ‘phrin las. (2002). Dung dkar tshig mdzod chen mo (White Conch Dictionary). Beijing: Krung go’i bod kyi shes rig dpe skrun khang.
•5DL: Ngag-dbang-blo-bzang-rgya-mtsho. (1995). The collected works (gsung ‘bum) of Vth Dalai Lama Ngag-dbang-blo-bzang-rgya-mtsho. Gangtok: Sikkim Research Institute of Tibetology.
Praises to Khache Marpo (kha che dmar po) by the Fifth Dalai Lama:
Riding on a saddled precious horse
Having the power of the wind,
Traversing the universe in an instant,
Praise to Yaksha Khache Marpo, the doctrine’s watchman.
Furious mighty being biting the lower lip,
Three eyes blazing the sun and moon watching enemies,
Emanating messengers taking the life of false guides,
Praise to the liberator of the ten enemies.
Wearing leather armor, banners, colored garb and
Leather helmet with a victory banner, treasury of 9 good signs,
Tying enemies with a lasso, piercing their hearts with a lance,
Praise to you and your retinue.
These praises are taken from a ritual to Khache Marpo written by the Fifth Dalai Lama (5DL, Volume Da folios 147r-148r). According to the colophon Khache Marpo requested the Fifth Dalai Lama to write this ritual. Khache Marpo is most commonly known as Dorje Shugden’s minister (ODT, 143).
Trode Khangsar is Dorje Shugden’s Ashokan Pillar, according to the White Conch Dictionary it was established by the Fifth Dalai Lama himself. Management of Trode Khangsar was entrusted to Riwo Choling monastery, a Gelug monastery in Lhoka. On the same lot of Trode Khangsar was a small shrine called Monkyi Khangsar (smon skyid khang gsar) where Khache Marpo was invoked via oracle (WCD, 1312).
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=913
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Invocation to Lord Namkar Barzin
An Invocation to Lord Namkar Barzin
With great faith I take refuge in Lord Shakyamuni Buddha
Who with great self sacrifice perseverance achieved fully,
The peerless Enlightenment under the Bodhi tree in Bodh Gaya,
And with profound compassion turned the wheel of Dharma.
With great reverence I pay heartfelt homage to Lord Tsongkhapa,
Who as an emanation of the Lord of Speech Manjushri,
Took rebirth during the times that Shakyamuni’s teachings
Were on the decline and enacted the deeds of enlightened activities.
I bow to the Great Geshe of Dromo of Phari, who in dependence upon
Hearing, contemplation and meditation relied on the preliminaries
Of Tsongkapa retreat and the secret Mother Queen Vajra Yogini,
Achieved great siddhis and was a tremendous benefit to others.
Great Mongolian Geshe who was diligent and caught in storm returning,
Taunted and made fun of were the causes for you to manifest
‘compassionate’ anger to take on a form of a supreme Dharmapala,
I invoke your swift presence to this place now by the power of my refuge.
You who take on the form of a fully ordained monk holding sword which
Cuts the bonds of our temporal sufferings and difficulties,
Who holds a white skull cup representing that you have mastered tantra,
And who rides on a mystical gyaling as a mount, showing your tantric masteries.
Who rides amid psychic wind, fire and smoke with great speed,
And who has three eyes on the lookout for those in need of protection.
Since the great Mahasiddha of Phari, Dromo Geshe places confidence in you,
So I one with faith but little merit do also.
Please calm down the disturbances, fighting, violence, crime, in this
Region in which you are invoked. Many here are suffering unnecessarily.
Please calm the violence and hostilities here. Protect those without
Help and assistance. Let disturbing violence in this area stop.
Let the population have peace, harmony, prosperity and growth.
I invoke you and request you to be the protector of this region and
Keep a close eye on those who may be the object of crime and thievery.
Please calm the local guardians for they can come under your subjugation.
Have pity and great compassion to the one who is invoking you through
This prayer of request. Although our spiritual attainments are none, we have
Great faith in Lord Buddha and the holy Dharma, so with respect I remind you of the
Oath you have taken with the great Mahasiddha of Phari, Dromo Geshe Rinpoche.
I offer you milk, teas, cakes, biscuits, yoghurts, incense, lights, and various other
Offerings as to make a link with you. Please out of your great compassion, accept
And make this whole area at peace, prosperous and calm. Use your quick powerful
Actions and show immediate protection that is ongoing.
OM BIYADA-PAR DHAMA-DHARA SOHA
(recite as many times as possible)
Please manifest signs to all that are clear and evident of your much needed presence,
Show clear and swift results in helping the suffering of this area.
I invoke you and request you from my heart. You, great Mongol Geshe Namka Barzin,
Protect, protect and show your swift actions for all to witness.
Great Mongol Geshe whose mystical powers have been proven,
Who is known to be swift as wind and extremely fierce, gnawing your lower lip,
Whose reputation to guard the property and wealth of those who place faith in you is famed,
Show special favour to me that I may gain inner and outer accomplishments.
On a personal basis, be my guardian, friend and protector.
Grant me my needs and necessities and may they come easily.
May I gain wealth, prosperity and freedom from obstructers, human and non-human.
Make the situations arise that I may practice the Dharma in-depth.
Remain as my Dharma protector and calm interferences. May I be blessed by the
Faultless Shakyamuni, Tsongkhapa and Dromo Geshe in this life and all future lives.
Where there is unhappiness and sufferings, may it quell and be calmed. May I be of
Tremendous benefit to others and a fully enlightened being.
Composed by a Tulku of the Duldzin lineage
[The other powerful acolyte and entourage of Dorje Shugden is the
Mongolian Namkar Barzin who rides on the mythical animal gyaling.
He was included onto the entourage of Dorje Shugden by the 20th century Mahasiddha
Dromo Geshe Rinpoche who was well-known to be the emanation of Tsongkhapa himself
as told by the 13th Dalai Lama. Namkar Barzin also is a dharma protector in his own right
but serves Dorje Shugden as Kache Marpo does.]
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=2168
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i've posted two beautiful prayers from the 'Prayers' section of this website for your easy reference. There are several other prayers there and many articles and videos on this site which i highly recommend anyone to take a look... I personally find it a great resource and it would be good if all of us who are loyal followers of Dorje Shugden to consolidate info here so we can be a one-stop website for anyone who is interested in Dorje Shugden's amazing practice.
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There was a previous thread about Khache Marpo here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=42.0, with the title "Who is Khache Marpo?"
I read on Dorje Shugden History (link: http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/trode-khangsar-4.html) that
" ... for the tsen spirit Khache Marpo, was related to Tsiu Marpo. Khache Marpo is one of the “seven brothers” ('bar ba spun bdun) of Tsiu Marpo’s retinue (TSH, 55), and also assumed the role as Dorje Shugden’s attendant (bka' sdod) when Dorje Shugden came into existence in the 17th century."
TSH is: Byam pa thub bstan dge legs rgya mtsho. (2007). Rab rgyal lcags mo sbrul lor gtsang bkra shis lhun por gnang ba'i bstan srung snying gi nor bu rdo rje shugs ldan rtsal gyi rtogs brjod dang 'brel ba'i bka' slob thun mong ma yin pa bzhugs so. In Shugs ldan chos 'byung dri ma med pa'i lung dang rigs pa'i lam nas drangs pa'i 'jam dpal dgyes pa'i gtam zhes bya ba bzhugs so. pp 15-66. Chab mdo: Chab mdo sa khul pa don tshad yod kung si.
Perhaps Trinleykalsang can enlighten us what the source is?
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I have heard that Kache Marpo was an very old Dharma Protector in his own right, which makes DS entourage a very special one... DS's chief minister was a protector himself! Does anyone have any information on Kache Marpo being propitiated as a Dharma protector in himself, before DS arose? Are there any records or histories about Kache Marpo's practice, or any information on practitioners that may still propitiate / pray to him individually?
Also, this would mean therefore, that three Dharma protectors exist within / "share" the same mandala - Setrap, Dorje Shugden, Kache Marpo. Is this correct? In this way, propitiating one automatically invokes the other two also?
Interesting therefore, that monasteries such as Gaden Shartse are "permitted" to continue their practice of Setrap but not DS, when really they're within the same "family"? And would anyone have any information on how Dalai Lama's side may have countered or explained away this little loophole?
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Chris Bell wrote his master's thesis on ""Tsiu Marpo, The Career of a Tibetan Protector Deity":
http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/Tsiu%20Marpo%20The%20Career%20of%20a%20Tibetan%20Protector%20Deity.pdf (http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/Tsiu%20Marpo%20The%20Career%20of%20a%20Tibetan%20Protector%20Deity.pdf)
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I came across the info below lately and thought I'd like to share with all of you re Namkha Barzin. Interesting how both are related to Lama Zopa.
1. From: Lama Zopa Rinpoche's Online Advice Book, http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=274
There is a place in Tibet between Phagri and Domo, with a monastery called Pema Choeling; it is a branch of Domo Geshe's monastery. It is a very beautiful monastery, which has many animals and nomads. It has plenty of cheese, butter, and dry meat in the shrine room. Usually, in a Tibetan monastery, above the gompa in front there is a big row of statues, but in this one there are shelves filled with big circles of butter. In the outside area, in the kitchen, on table tops, and outside the door there are clay pots filled up with curd. In the middle there is very nice green yard and water. On the other side of that there is a main road going to Domo, Sikkim, and India. In this place is a protector called Namka Barzin. In his past life he was a Mongolian geshe who died with anger. Then he was born as a spirit, and that spirit is situated on that hill. There is a stone house for the spirit, as a place to stay.
In the past, when I was in Tibet, anybody who came by that place on a horse had to get off, otherwise the horse became disturbed and the person might be injured or blood might come out of his or her mouth. In the beginning, this even happened with the Chinese. Because it often happened, some people knew they had to get off their horse because the spirit disturbs the horse and then the person falls down and vomits blood. People who know the story don't ride their horses there, they get down and walk for a minute, and then after that it is OK. That is also due to people’s negative karma—it ripens. It can also influence a pilot’s mind in an airplane; it can make them fly in the wrong direction and then have an accident.
2. The Lawudo Lama: stories of reincarnation from the Mount Everest region by Jamyang Wangmo
(a) The story of Namkha Barzin is as follows. IN the ate 1920s or early 1930s, a Mongoliam man came to Dungkar Monastery seeking ordination as a monk. He was old and poor, and the monk in charge told him that beggars were not admitted in the moanstery and threw him out. The Mongolian Namkha Barzin was very hurt but begged to be allowed to stay because he had nowhere to go. He had come all the way from Mongolia enduring much haradship in order to become a monk, but instead he was abused and thrown out. At the gate of the moanstery he met four monks and again asked for help, but they beat him and chased him out. Then Namkha Barzin cursed the five monks and told them that within one year they would all be dead.
Sometime later Namkha Barzin was found dead on top of the pass near Pema Choling (padma chos gling). The nomads threw his body into the river, where it got stuck for a few days among the rocks, and the herders nearby amused themselves by throwing stones at the corpse. Finally, the body was carried away by the water and disappeared.
A few months later, the herders and their yaks died one by one of a terrible disease and looked as if they had been attacked by demons. The monk who had first mistreated Namkha Barzin caught the same disease and died. Then a monk fell into a trance and began to make weird noises, while holding his hand with four fingers outstretched. Dromo Geshe thought that it was the spirit of a dead person trying to communicate. Someitme later another monk died in a similar way, and Dromo Geshe inquired whether they had been connected with any crime against anyone who had died recently. Somebody then remembered Namkha Barzin and his curse. Dromo Geshe was able to turn Namkha Barzin into a protecting spirit (dam can, literally "one having taken oath") under the command of the spirit Dorje Shugden. His oracle was established at Dungkar Monastery in the hope that he would be pacified and spare the other three monks, but they also died shortly thereafter. After that, Namkha Barzin gave advice through the medium, and he was consulted for any important matters concerning the monastery. Later a shrine was built on the pass where he had died, and everyone would stop to do a short prayer at that place. Those who did not would invariably meet with an accident.
Cf.Pemba (1957)
(b) Namkha Barzin is said to be a wild tsen (btsan) spirit. He is depicted as standing on top of a decaying corpse, red in color, with one face, two hands, three eyes and a ferocious expression.
Cf. Nebesky-Wojkowitz (1996, pp143-44)
I don't really like the 'story' of the old man that was thrown out, that sounded very cruel.
Does anyone know if there are rules that state beggars cannot be ordained? Just wondering...
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One more about Namkha Barzin:
Domo Geshe Rinpoche tamed even more intractable beings. In the 1920s a Mongolian Geshe returned from pilgrimage in India and stopped at Dungkar Gonpa on his way to Lhasa. Rinpoche was away at the time and Umdze Sherab, who later became the famous abbot of Dungkar Gonpa, asked the Geshe to stay, as he had a high fever and was too sick to travel.
But the Geshe did not accept the invitation. He wanted to be in Lhasa for the Great Prayer Festival (Mönlam Chenmo). On the steep road to Phari, he reached the end of his life. He sat down next to the road and the death process started. The Geshe did his practice, which was not completed when several Bönpos arrived. Well intentioned, they performed the transference of consciousness, since the dying man had stopped breathing.
This interrupted the Geshe's practice on the most subtle level of consciousness and he turned into a raging spirit who killed many Bönpos in Tromo. Several Buddhist practitioners tried unsuccessfully to appease the fury of this being. When Domo Geshe Rinpoche returned, he tamed the ferocious spirit, put him under oath, and called him Namkha Bardzin. He became a special protector for the area of Tromo.
Source: Biography sketch of Domo Geshe Rinpoche which was written by Ursula Bernis in 1995, initially for inclusion in a compendium of biographies of great Gelugpa masters, http://www.nyackbuddhism.org/rinpoche.html
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Dorje Shugden's main attendant had always been Kharche Marpo while Namkhar Bardzin was a relative new comer as he was bound to Dorje Shugden relatively recently. One big difference between these two attendants is that Kharche Marpo is enlightened and has been recognised to be an emanation of Hayagriva just like Dorje Setrap while Namkhar Bardzin is a oath-bound Protector like Nechung. Hence, Kharche Marpo can actually be propitiated as a Dharma Protector in his own right while we don't do the same with Namkhar Bardzin.
I think with regards to the spread of Dorje Shugden, sometimes it would be wise to seek assistance from Kharche Marpo as that would be his job. No Buddha like Dorje Shugden is really interested in self-promotion so we look to Kharche Marpo. On the other hand, I heard that Namkhar Bardzin is really good to protect property and institutions.
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Thank you Big Uncle for explanation. But my question is, if we cannot propitiate unenlightened/ oath-bound protector in their own right (I might not get this right), so why is the TGIE propitiating Nechung? There's also a monastery of Nechung.
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Dear Vajraprotector,
I think you can propitiate unenlightened but not in the same regard as a Enlightened Protector. Hence, we can make offerings like how we would do to powerful and very important people for favours. Hence, I think Nechung is only requested for advice and assistance. We do not propitiate him like in the same way we propitiate Dorje Shugden. Remember, even just because he is unenlightened, doesn't mean he doesn't have attainments. He has served the Dalai Lama for many generations now. He must have some sort of attainments by now.
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This thread caught my attention as there are many parties out there, of other traditions, who use this information based on the view on their own tradition to put down Dorje Shugden and Dorje Setrap. How shall we answer this? But then again, why are they, of another lineage, criticizing ours? Why are they comparing our tradition against theirs? But It would be good to provide more definitive facts to stop them from creating more unfortunate conditions to themselves.
Karche Marpo is one of Tsui Marpo's retinue originally, one of the 7 emanations.
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This thread caught my attention as there are many parties out there, of other traditions, who use this information based on the view on their own tradition to put down Dorje Shugden and Dorje Setrap. How shall we answer this? But then again, why are they, of another lineage, criticizing ours? Why are they comparing our tradition against theirs? But It would be good to provide more definitive facts to stop them from creating more unfortunate conditions to themselves.
Karche Marpo is one of Tsui Marpo's retinue originally, one of the 7 emanations.
What are you talking about? I don't get your post at all. Anyone else get it?
Who's putting down Dhogyal? Just the facts are stated which is Dhogyal is a negative being and you have to stop worshipping him.
Kache Marpo or whatever defecting from Tsui Marpo to Shugden's camp doesn't say much for this entourage does it. I mean where is the loyalty?
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This thread caught my attention as there are many parties out there, of other traditions, who use this information based on the view on their own tradition to put down Dorje Shugden and Dorje Setrap. How shall we answer this? But then again, why are they, of another lineage, criticizing ours? Why are they comparing our tradition against theirs? But It would be good to provide more definitive facts to stop them from creating more unfortunate conditions to themselves.
Karche Marpo is one of Tsui Marpo's retinue originally, one of the 7 emanations.
What are you talking about? I don't get your post at all. Anyone else get it?
Who's putting down Dhogyal? Just the facts are stated which is Dhogyal is a negative being and you have to stop worshipping him.
Kache Marpo or whatever defecting from Tsui Marpo to Shugden's camp doesn't say much for this entourage does it. I mean where is the loyalty?
If you dont get it, then i suggest you read more and do more research.
Please provide proof and quote the source where you found that Dorje Shugden is a negative being. If you cannot find any quotes to support your views, it is best not to post them. Simply saying that he is without proof is tantamount to slander. Please be respectful and remember where are you posting in.
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This thread caught my attention as there are many parties out there, of other traditions, who use this information based on the view on their own tradition to put down Dorje Shugden and Dorje Setrap. How shall we answer this? But then again, why are they, of another lineage, criticizing ours? Why are they comparing our tradition against theirs? But It would be good to provide more definitive facts to stop them from creating more unfortunate conditions to themselves.
Karche Marpo is one of Tsui Marpo's retinue originally, one of the 7 emanations.
What are you talking about? I don't get your post at all. Anyone else get it?
Who's putting down Dhogyal? Just the facts are stated which is Dhogyal is a negative being and you have to stop worshipping him.
Kache Marpo or whatever defecting from Tsui Marpo to Shugden's camp doesn't say much for this entourage does it. I mean where is the loyalty?
If you dont get it, then i suggest you read more and do more research.
Please provide proof and quote the source where you found that Dorje Shugden is a negative being. If you cannot find any quotes to support your views, it is best not to post them. Simply saying that he is without proof is tantamount to slander. Please be respectful and remember where are you posting in.
If I don't believe in Shugden and express it, it is not slander. Don't label it as that. You have your sources that say Shugden is good. Well my source is His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the supreme pontiff of Tibet who is warning us it is bad. That is pretty powerful stuff already.
Now if you want more proof, I suggest you research all the lamas that say Dhogyal is dangerous. You have not researched thoroughly the writings of Trichen Ngawang Chokden. The 13th Dalai Lama banning this protector. Loseling Kensur Pema Gyaltsen speaking out strongly against this protector and explaining to his many students over 25 years back.
There are much proof and you have to research because you persist in the practice. I've done my research and I am on HHDL's side on this one. Before you practice you have to research both sides as you would before confirming a root teacher. You don't just believe and not research the good and bad before adopting the practice. You have to be careful since it is your 'soul' we are talking about.
Make everyone's life simple, just get another protector. It's like a protector buffet to choose from.
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Dorje Shugden's main attendant had always been Kharche Marpo while Namkhar Bardzin was a relative new comer as he was bound to Dorje Shugden relatively recently. One big difference between these two attendants is that Kharche Marpo is enlightened and has been recognised to be an emanation of Hayagriva just like Dorje Setrap while Namkhar Bardzin is a oath-bound Protector like Nechung. Hence, Kharche Marpo can actually be propitiated as a Dharma Protector in his own right while we don't do the same with Namkhar Bardzin.
I think with regards to the spread of Dorje Shugden, sometimes it would be wise to seek assistance from Kharche Marpo as that would be his job. No Buddha like Dorje Shugden is really interested in self-promotion so we look to Kharche Marpo. On the other hand, I heard that Namkhar Bardzin is really good to protect property and institutions.
I echo what Big Uncle has to say. I've always been familiar with the relationship of both Kache Marpo and Dorje Shugden working closely together to benefit sentient beings and of course the Dharma. It is without doubt that Namkar Barzin in part of Dorje Shugden's mandala but I think we should work closely with discretion and blessings of our Lama. This would be most appropriate.
It is not surprising to know that Tsiu Marpo, Setrab and Dorje Shugden were protectors of the Sakyas. Dharma is Dharma. Hence, protectors are here to protect. What difference does it make? As it is my stand always. Dorje Shugden protects the teachings of Manjunatha Tsongkhapa which is a synthesis of the entire scope of Dharma from all lineages of Tibet and in entirety, protects the Dharma, lineages and gurus of all lineages.
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If I don't believe in Shugden and express it, it is not slander. Don't label it as that. You have your sources that say Shugden is good. Well my source is His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the supreme pontiff of Tibet who is warning us it is bad. That is pretty powerful stuff already.
Now if you want more proof, I suggest you research all the lamas that say Dhogyal is dangerous. You have not researched thoroughly the writings of Trichen Ngawang Chokden. The 13th Dalai Lama banning this protector. Loseling Kensur Pema Gyaltsen speaking out strongly against this protector and explaining to his many students over 25 years back.
There are much proof and you have to research because you persist in the practice. I've done my research and I am on HHDL's side on this one. Before you practice you have to research both sides as you would before confirming a root teacher. You don't just believe and not research the good and bad before adopting the practice. You have to be careful since it is your 'soul' we are talking about.
Make everyone's life simple, just get another protector. It's like a protector buffet to choose from.
I've done my research on both sides and have my sources - HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, HH Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche, HE Gangchen Rinpoche, HH 101st Gaden Trisur and many more great masters (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=37 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=37)). Through the kindness of this website (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=46 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=46)), I do think HH the Dalai Lama is not really against Dorje Shugden. I have looked at the Protector buffet as you call it and I have chosen Dorje Shugden as my protector, as did HH the Dalai Lama for many years.
HH the Dalai Lama who is Chenrezig and thus clairvoyant wrote a praise to Dorje Shugden. Was he wrong when he did so? HH the Dalai Lama who is the icon of Tibetan Buddhism and who would know the importance of keeping good samaya said his teachers were wrong.
You may decide that Dorje Shugden is not the right protector for you, which is fine. People follow different Protectors, different schools of Buddhism, different religions all round the world. It's not about following different Protectors or religions but about respecting each other's choices. Even HH the Dalai Lama has said that if you want to follow Dorje Shugden, go ahead, but don't come to my teachings. I haven't been to HH the Dalai Lama's teachings nor do i intend to. HH will play his role and i will follow my own. Can we peacefully coexist with acrimony? If you are Buddhist, then please be a good representation of one.
Wishing you all benefit and bliss :)
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HHDL banned Dhogyal for the welfare of the greater many. After much observation, investigation, consulting various teachers/monks/laity decided it would be less harmful for individual practice and the greater whole of Tibetan Buddhism to stop the practice of this one Dhogyal. He spoke for the greater good. What other motivation can he possibly have? What other benefits is there for him?
If you are truly Gelug, then you may adopt the practice of Kalarupa. If Kalarupa is dead or ineffective, then you may search for other protectors. Otherwise if you have Kalarupa, why is there a need to rely on Dhogyal? None of the great seats of learning such as in Sakya or Gelug (Ganden, Sera, Depung) have installed Dhogyal as their principal protector, so why start now. This itself says so much.
Since Tsongkapa relied on Kalarupa as his protector and Kalarupa suited Tsongkapa, then we would be wise to follow suit.
Since followers of Tsongkapa follow the same philosophical tenants as he did, same yidams (Guyasamaja, Cakrasambara, Yamentaka and Kakachakra), same vinaya code, then why not also follow Tsongkapa's protector which is Kalarupa. Why do followers of Gelug follow everything as Tsongkapa did to reach his enlightenment and understanding EXCEPT his protector?
If you are a Tsongkapa follower then follow Tsongkapa's practice completely. Be a clean and thorough Gelug.
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Why do followers of Gelug follow everything as Tsongkapa did to reach his enlightenment and understanding EXCEPT his protector?
If you are a Tsongkapa follower then follow Tsongkapa's practice completely. Be a clean and thorough Gelug.
Come on. Please read history of DS, it appeared after Tsongkapa...It is quite a pain to read that kind of comment, if one who made such comment received teachings coming from Pabongka Rinpoche and Trijiang Rinpoche...
Anyway I would like to throw one challenge back to you:
As of today, 23+ made self-immolation. Please tell me why yet HHDL do not make open request to Tibetan not to do that kind of in-vain self-immolation, as 17th Karmapa already did?
I remember once HHDL be asked about these self-immolation while he was in Japan, and he didn't make comment, by reason of he be out of politics already. Ok, just about religion and human lives, why HHDL not demand them(those teenage, not even read about history) not make further self-immolation....? Because it is about POLITICS, so we can let them go?
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HHDL banned Dhogyal for the welfare of the greater many. After much observation, investigation, consulting various teachers/monks/laity decided it would be less harmful for individual practice and the greater whole of Tibetan Buddhism to stop the practice of this one Dhogyal. He spoke for the greater good. What other motivation can he possibly have? What other benefits is there for him?
If you are truly Gelug, then you may adopt the practice of Kalarupa. If Kalarupa is dead or ineffective, then you may search for other protectors. Otherwise if you have Kalarupa, why is there a need to rely on Dhogyal? None of the great seats of learning such as in Sakya or Gelug (Ganden, Sera, Depung) have installed Dhogyal as their principal protector, so why start now. This itself says so much.
Since Tsongkapa relied on Kalarupa as his protector and Kalarupa suited Tsongkapa, then we would be wise to follow suit.
Since followers of Tsongkapa follow the same philosophical tenants as he did, same yidams (Guyasamaja, Cakrasambara, Yamentaka and Kakachakra), same vinaya code, then why not also follow Tsongkapa's protector which is Kalarupa. Why do followers of Gelug follow everything as Tsongkapa did to reach his enlightenment and understanding EXCEPT his protector?
If you are a Tsongkapa follower then follow Tsongkapa's practice completely. Be a clean and thorough Gelug.
Dorje Shugden existed after Tsongkhapa's time. So your arguments do not make sense. It is not easy for laypeople to make a connection to an enlightened Dharmapala as we have much obscuration.
the 11th Dalai Lama installed Dorje Shugden as the principal protector of the Gelugs, so I am wondering if you have do through research before you said those things. And there was a huge Dorje Shugden statue in Ganden monastery prior to the ban. This means that Dorje Shugden was well established in Ganden, Sera and Drepung prior to the ban and again, your points do not hold.
Just because the other traditions do not practice or are not fond of Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama banned it, it does not mean that Gelugs who choose to follow their Lamas are wrong.
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HHDL banned Dhogyal for the welfare of the greater many. After much observation, investigation, consulting various teachers/monks/laity decided it would be less harmful for individual practice and the greater whole of Tibetan Buddhism to stop the practice of this one Dhogyal. He spoke for the greater good. What other motivation can he possibly have? What other benefits is there for him?
If you are truly Gelug, then you may adopt the practice of Kalarupa. If Kalarupa is dead or ineffective, then you may search for other protectors. Otherwise if you have Kalarupa, why is there a need to rely on Dhogyal? None of the great seats of learning such as in Sakya or Gelug (Ganden, Sera, Depung) have installed Dhogyal as their principal protector, so why start now. This itself says so much.
Since Tsongkapa relied on Kalarupa as his protector and Kalarupa suited Tsongkapa, then we would be wise to follow suit.
Since followers of Tsongkapa follow the same philosophical tenants as he did, same yidams (Guyasamaja, Cakrasambara, Yamentaka and Kakachakra), same vinaya code, then why not also follow Tsongkapa's protector which is Kalarupa. Why do followers of Gelug follow everything as Tsongkapa did to reach his enlightenment and understanding EXCEPT his protector?
If you are a Tsongkapa follower then follow Tsongkapa's practice completely. Be a clean and thorough Gelug.
Dorje Shugden existed after Tsongkhapa's time. So your arguments do not make sense. It is not easy for laypeople to make a connection to an enlightened Dharmapala as we have much obscuration.
the 11th Dalai Lama installed Dorje Shugden as the principal protector of the Gelugs, so I am wondering if you have do through research before you said those things. And there was a huge Dorje Shugden statue in Ganden monastery prior to the ban. This means that Dorje Shugden was well established in Ganden, Sera and Drepung prior to the ban and again, your points do not hold.
Just because the other traditions do not practice or are not fond of Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama banned it, it does not mean that Gelugs who choose to follow their Lamas are wrong.
That is EXACTLY my point. Dhogyal came AFTER TSONGKAPA. Tsongkapa never checked Dhogyal out. Dhoygal does not have Tsongkapa's seal of approval. But Tsongkapa checked out Kalarupa and appointed him the supreme protector of the Gelug School of Buddhism. Tsongkapa among all the protecotrs picked Kalarupa as the one who can preserve his teachings and lineage. Kalarupa's lineage extends to the masters/monasteries of India. He is authentic. Dhogyal is a dead monk's spirit. Kalarupa is Yamantaka who is Manjugosha. No one else has the authority to override the instructions of Tsongkapa himself. For Gelugs, whatever Tsongkapa instituted should be the final word.
Even here in Dharamsala, when you go to the private Monastery of HHDL (Namgayl Monastery), the protector chapel's main image is a large mask of Kalarupa. Kalarupa pujas are done daily by the Namgyal monks. People of all sects of Tibetan Buddhism makes offerings and ask them to pour tea to Kalarupa daily.
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Actually the practice of Dorje Shugden came directly from Tsongkhapa in Tushita. So Tsongkhapa certainly approves.
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Actually the practice of Dorje Shugden came directly from Tsongkhapa in Tushita. So Tsongkhapa certainly approves.
If that is the case, great. It might be approved by Tsongkapa that Dhogyal is so and so, but not as the principal protector of Gelug as Kalarupa is. Please prove that Tsongkapa approved. Show us the texts and sources please. Thank you.
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Actually the practice of Dorje Shugden came directly from Tsongkhapa in Tushita. So Tsongkhapa certainly approves.
If that is the case, great. It might be approved by Tsongkapa that Dhogyal is so and so, but not as the principal protector of Gelug as Kalarupa is. Please prove that Tsongkapa approved. Show us the texts and sources please. Thank you.
Please show us that Je Tsongkhapa disapproves. Je Pabongkhapa and Trijang Rinpoche are regarded as emanations of Je Tsongkhapa, so I think we can say that Tsongkhapa approves of Dorje Shugden as the principal protector of the Gedan tradition. Times change and just because Kalarupa was the protector who was most suitable to protect Je Tsongkhapa's tradition at that time doesn't mean that he is now. The karma of living beings in this age is such that a different protector who is still an emanation of the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri is required because the Gedan Tradition is a living, breathing tradition and it is evolving. Those who do not evolve along with it will not be pure Gelugpas, I'm afraid, especially when they fail to trust the Lineage holders.
Kalarupa and Dorje Shugden have the same nature and function but Dorje Shugden is more able to help now.
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Make everyone's life simple, just get another protector. It's like a protector buffet to choose from. [/color]
So we should change our spiritual practices like people change their wallpaper and soft furnishings?
Whatever the Guru has prescribed is good medicine if the Guru is qualified. We have a wonderful lineage of very qualified Teachers. The Dalai Lama is not Gelugpa, therefore he has no right to interfere and tell Gelugpas what they can and cannot practice.
The Nyingmapas have their own Protector, Dorje Drollo. No one is suggesting that they should abandon this protector and find another. This is also the same with Dorje Shugden - he's the personal protector of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition and we will not abandon him.
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Make everyone's life simple, just get another protector. It's like a protector buffet to choose from. [/color]
So we should change our spiritual practices like people change their wallpaper and soft furnishings?
Whatever the Guru has prescribed is good medicine if the Guru is qualified. We have a wonderful lineage of very qualified Teachers. The Dalai Lama is not Gelugpa, therefore he has no right to interfere and tell Gelugpas what they can and cannot practice.
The Nyingmapas have their own Protector, Dorje Drollo. No one is suggesting that they should abandon this protector and find another. This is also the same with Dorje Shugden - he's the personal protector of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition and we will not abandon him.
Who's to say which guru is qualified or not. For every guru there are people who feel is qualifed and he is not. That is very subjective.
You are right, we don't change our practices like wallpaper.
You are also right that medicine from the guru is very good. For the millions around the world who take HHDL as their guru, he advised them to change their protector and they did. They changed their medicine to a better one.
I never practiced dhogyal and never will. I have never changed.
As for the HHDL being Gelug or not is irrelevant, the Gelug major monasteries do take him as their head. Secondly we can check the 18 volumes of Tsongkapa's teachings, there is no Shugden mentioned. When Tsongkapa was in retreat for 6 years in Olka, he relied on Kalarupa and he recommended the same for others who follow him. Don't listen to HHDL, but listen to Tsongkapa.
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As for the HHDL being Gelug or not is irrelevant, the Gelug major monasteries do take him as their head. Secondly we can check the 18 volumes of Tsongkapa's teachings, there is no Shugden mentioned. When Tsongkapa was in retreat for 6 years in Olka, he relied on Kalarupa and he recommended the same for others who follow him. Don't listen to HHDL, but listen to Tsongkapa.[/color]
How could Shugden be mentioned in Lama Tsongkhapa writings when Dorje Shugden had not arose yet?
The matter at hand here is very simple: Is Dorje Shugden a spirit or is he a Buddha, thus suitable object of refuge?
So far, there are still not a single evidence that DS is a spirit, and yet many evidences that he is a Buddha and was already a Buddha before he arose as a Dharma protector.
I'll go further, to declare that Dorje Shugden is a spirit is the same as saying that Manjushri is a spirit.
It is just as absurd...
Si when an emanation of Chenrezig declares a ban on an emanation Manjushri, it can only be a play in motion.
Please, and with respect, contemplate on that Tenzin Gyatso.
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Who's to say which guru is qualified or not. For every guru there are people who feel is qualifed and he is not. That is very subjective.
You are right, we don't change our practices like wallpaper.
You are also right that medicine from the guru is very good. For the millions around the world who take HHDL as their guru, he advised them to change their protector and they did. They changed their medicine to a better one.
I never practiced dhogyal and never will. I have never changed.
As for the HHDL being Gelug or not is irrelevant, the Gelug major monasteries do take him as their head. Secondly we can check the 18 volumes of Tsongkapa's teachings, there is no Shugden mentioned. When Tsongkapa was in retreat for 6 years in Olka, he relied on Kalarupa and he recommended the same for others who follow him. Don't listen to HHDL, but listen to Tsongkapa.
- If you dont feel that your own Guru is qualified, why should you take him or her as your Guru? If you dont feel someone else's Guru is qualified, what gives you the right to say if that Lama is qualified or not? Isnt there a line in Buddhist texts that say criticizing a teaching and authentic Buddhist teacher is the same as killing 1000 Buddhas...what happens if the Lama you think is not qualified happens to be qualified? then its not gonna be pretty..
- I have no problems with other people wanting to take HHDL as their Guru, as long as they dont enroach into my right to take a qualified lama that may not be politically aligned with HHDL as my Guru. Do we go into their forums and urge people to practice Dorje Shugden?
- Again, Dorje Shugden appeared AFTER Tsongkhapa. Tsongkhapa is not a big fan of showing his clairvoyance and abilities. Why would Tsongkhapa ask his disciples to practice a protector that has not shown up yet? Why are you using the same argument that I have debased earlier?