dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vajraprotector on March 04, 2010, 10:12:29 PM
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In order to sabotage the Dalai Lama, China has been heavily promoting their own Tibetan Buddhism spiritual leader - Panchen Lama and also wish to create their own "Tibetan Buddhism" that is independent of the Dalai Lama or any current Tibetan monastic institutions. On the side, it is also likely that they will do things that go against the Dalai Lama- eg promoting Shugden practice.
China has invested quite a lot (albeit for political reason) on building a spiritual leader & their own “Tibetan Buddhism” for China. They even invested $11.7 million to set up the first-ever academy of Tibetan Buddhism in the Tibet autonomous region in south western China. Construction on the $11.7 million project began in Oct 2008. The project located near Lhasa is being fully funded by the Central government in Beijing. The academy is being set up in Nyetang Town, Quxu County near the Tibetan capital of Lhasa in an area of 17.4 hectares.
(read: China to train cadre of Tibetan monks to counter Dalai- Saibal Dasgupta, TNN, Oct 18, 2008, http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3613215,flstry-1.cms (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3613215,flstry-1.cms))
Dalai Lama being the “public enemy” and also world-renowned Buddhist icon/celebrity has also spur the interests of different group of Chinese:
- those who are politically motivated / patriotic
- those who are oblivious to Buddhism in the past, and
- those who might be interested in Tibetan Buddhism because the world embraces Dalai Lama.
These are some issues that might be interesting to look at:
1. PANCHEN LAMA TAKING THE LEAD
The Chinese government has appointed the 11th Panchen Lama to the country’s top legislative advisory body. Also, the 11th Panchen Lama delivered a speech at the opening ceremony of the Second World Buddhist Forum in Wuxi City of eastern Jiangsu Province, winning applause and appreciation in March 2009.
We can foresee that the Panchen Lama will not only be the head of Tibetan Buddhism in China, he will also play a leading role in Chinese Buddhism in China & worldwide with his current elected position as Vice President of the Buddhist Association of China. The world will listen to China & follow what China says.
In the long run, I think China doesn’t really care which “brand” of Tibetan Buddhism or Buddhism, or what practice grow, as long as it is all under control & follow the rules.
2. CHINA’S TIBETAN BUDDHISM GROWTH
While statistics are hard to come by, monks, followers and experts say that growing numbers of middle-class Chinese are turning to Tibetan Buddhism, driven by the perception of a spiritual vacuum in society and aided by the voluminous information available on the Internet. Communist Party officials and celebrities alike have embraced Tibetan Buddhism, despite having to worship at home, meet their lamas at night and run the risk of attending officially unauthorized events, such as the fish release and "fire sacrifice" at Huangsongyu Reservoir.
(From: In China, A Different Brand of Buddhism- Ethnic Han Turning To Tibetan Doctrine For Guidance; By Maureen Fan; Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, February 19, 2009
Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2009/02/18/ST2009021803418.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2009/02/18/ST2009021803418.html))
3. BUDDHISM IS PART OF IMPERIAL CHINESE’s ROOT/ HISTORY – A RENAISSANCE?
Buddhism is rooted in China, only that it suffered during the Cultural Revolution, hence it could be revived. Also, Chinese Buddhism is not surpressed in China.
Tibetan Buddhism has been practised by the Chinese emperors themselves, e.g the Emperor Qian Long, whose tutor was Changkya Rolpay Dorje.
The “success” of the Second World Buddhist Forum in the eastern Chinese city of Wuxi (more than 1,700 Buddhist monks and scholars from about 50 countries attended) shows the potential of a Buddhism renaissance if the Chinese decides to put the political “borders” at bay. The event was jointly organized by the Buddhist Association of China, the Buddha's Light International Association, the Hong Kong Buddhist Association, and the China Religious Culture Communication Association.
Hong Kong & Taiwan’s Tibetan Buddhism “culture” could influence mainland China once all these political matters are made less important.
This last point might be just a speculation, but it is my personal wish/dream that it happens so that the “haters” of Shugden Lamas could shut up ;D
4. SHUGDEN LAMAS/ ORGANISATIONS IN CHINA
Who was criticised by the TGIE for paying respect to the Panchen Lama? Hint hint: A Shugden lama!
It is possible that Dharma & DS practice will grow in China, bigger than ever, and perhaps the force behind this could be the Shugden Lamas.
For example, Gangchen Rinpoche as he has good relations with China and he’s a great supporter of DS.
Even if it’s not Gangchen Rinpoche, it is possible that any Shugden lama who establishes themselves well in China can make Dharma & Shugden big. It could be NKT penetrating China as they already establish a Kadampa Meditation Center in Hong Kong.
The closer ties between Taiwan & mainland China could make it easier for Taiwan to “export” their Tibetan Buddhism culture to mainland China – same language medium & cultural background. Their six-decade standoff between the two governments has improved since Ma Ying-jeou stepped in office. And yes, we do have Shugden Lamas in Taiwan that are establishing themselves and building DS temples, e.g. Tritul Rinpoche.
It is quite unlikely for mainstream Tibetan lamas to establish themselves in China, because that would upset the TGIE & the Tibetan community at large or being called "Chinese spies". Also, their sponsors who are Pro-Tibetans might pull out. On the other hand, Shugden lamas are already listed as "enemies" and might have more appeal to China than lamas who are pro-Tibet.
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I don't think it has to be so negative, and issues to do with China should not be so immediately brushed off as something negative or insulting.
Yes, it WAS a very difficult and painful situation for the tibetans and Gelugpa institutions and practitioners to be in - I don't even purport to understand a fraction of the suffering that they may have gone through. But this doesn't also doesn't mean that we should just automatically "switch off" when it comes to anything Chinese or China-related.
China wrecked havoc in Tibet, yes, but we mustn't forget that there are 1billion people living in China alone - they can't all be evil, Tibet-hating one-eyed monsters. I like VajraProtector's point that Buddhism used to be very strong in China and so much of the Buddhist practised in China finds its origins in Tibet. Could it be (gasp) that there may be many, many Chinese out there who still very much respect and sincerely wish to practise the religion and explore the practices of Buddhism more deeply?
I do not for a minute doubt that there probably ARE many insincere people in China who are riding on this ban to play their political cards and "get back" at the Dalai Lama etc ad nauseum. I wouldn't be surprised about that at all... but a bi-product of that is undoubtedly that religious institutions and practices are finding more room to grow and more people will be able to connect to the practices again.
It is not about promoting Dorje Shugden as a pop idol. No, it is not. But if we take a more positive thought, even if the "spread" of DS practice in China starts off as being somewhat politically motivated and insincere, it may and can still touch many who ARE sincere and will begin to practice. Remember that merely 1% of the Chinese population = 10 million Chinese people! Let's not talk about China/ Chinese / evil politics and all the rest of it. Let's just talk about the fact that THAT many more people and sentient beings can be exposed to the practices and teachings. It could be a doorway that opens to much bigger practice in the future, connecting the Chinese back to their incredibly rich spiritual and religious history before the cultural revolution.
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Dearest Honeydakini, Vajraprotector and others concerned,
Trinley Kelsang is not talking about the Chinese government actions, he is talking about what he considers a lack of sensitivity and respect among those who started addressing the matter of the ban as if it were a device of the show biz.
I repeat what I already said: some people do not know what happened, do not even start to understand the consequences of what happened, insist in seeing personal hurt in what is a Dharma tragedy.
I think I understand the very good intentions behind your posts and other people´s posts and somehow I´ve come to terms with them.
But you have to understand that there is an involontary tone of frivolity, of superficiality, due to the lack of true knowledge about the matter, that is not easy to accept for those who do know. Again, do not write about personal sufferings on the part of those who know. Personal feelings are unimportant. Just remember that we are telling you: you do not fathom what happened, what was lost. So please have some consideration for people like the one being contradicted here, that does not talk much, does a lot, and is asking for respect of the matter of the ban itself.
What would you think of a person who comes to the house of bereaved parents that have lost their children and they come in all cheerful and enthousiastic and tell them: "yuhoo, rejoice, now you have space in your house to fill it with still more children"... Please think about this example.
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Dear all,
I agree with a friend that some people do not know what happened, do not even start to understand the consequences of what happened. I admit I do not know how much pain, confusion, and the emotional turmoil that some people here might have experienced due to the ban and I apologise if I sounded like I try to downplay the ban either due to the lack of true knowledge about the matter or the tone of expressing my speculation of a more positive outcome out of this dark time.
In my attempt to learn more, I wish to explore other views and not just focus on criticising the Dalai Lama for his actions because I feel that will not elevate anybody or relieve the pain of people who have suffered. It will only promote anger and increase angst or disgust. I assure you that is my real motivation.
I respect the seniors here who have done a lot and I am sure have gone through much challenging time. In fact, I have learnt quite a lot by just joining this forum. I hope you’ll view my posts as intense interest to learn more and to see “the light at the end of the tunnel” instead of trying to undermine the ban. I too wish this horrible ban can be lifted and that many practitioners, especially the monks, and those whose families are being attacked & ostracised can feel freedom once again and not feel betrayed.
I wish to learn more about this holy protector Dorje Shugden whom I have the great fortune to have connect with and I sincerely believe that DS will prevail in the near future. I look forward to learn more from all of you, who have stuck with DS practice with tenacity, especially during this time of much difficulties.
And to Trinleykalsang, I wish to thank you for sharing your view, which is very valid and informative. And I like your posts and your effort in sharing resources, e.g the one about the 16th Karmapa, and many others, that has shed light and increase my faith in this protector that I barely knew much about. I hope you'll not feel insulted and do continue to share more posts and resources because they will benefit many people, especially new people like me.
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Dear all,
Everyone discussing on this thread has very good and valid reasons for how they feel and view things through experience. However we cannot always dwell on past experiences but to learn and rise above it. This is samsara, and will always be people disappointing us so long as we have a projection/expectation on them. That is my little knowledge I learnt from Dharma.
I like honeydakini's point of view for it gives a more positive light to the situation at hand and perhaps more "hope" for Dharma to grow and to benefit more people who will desperately need them as materialism grow and depression sets in. However, I also a agree that it should not be taken as some kind of justification and right for what the Dalai Lama and TGIE has done. That's not a good excuse but the comfort in which I can take in is that Dorje Shugden practice being promoted in China will lead to more freedom for everyone to practice openly and without fear, hence Lama Tsongkhapa's pure teachings to spread - this is something to look forward to, to rejoice.
I've always been told by my Guru that Dorje Shugden's practice is only effective if done with the right motivation for He is an enlightened protector. So if it is spread in China and they practice Dorje Shugden well, I do not doubt that the Chinese's people will be able to infuse some spirituality into their materialistic minds and they become better people. Perhaps this may be a naive thing for me to think ... but if not then why do we become spiritual at all? So I think that is a genuine cause for anyone to practice - to better humans first - to be more kind, honest, patient, generous etc in our daily lives first before we can even jump to say gain enlightenment which is of course the eventual ultimate reason. And I guess this is very much required in China as they are one of the superpower nations that is shaping our future each day. I believe the more they start to learn and practice Dharma, the better the chance for them to be better people. Dharma can change their lives.
Honestly I don't particularly like China Chinese and I don't trust them. But never the less Buddha gave teachings for everyone not just to the "goodies" but even to the maras and those being in Hell. In fact I think they need it more then any of us.
I've heard a story of a Lama who when visiting China was stalked by some Chinese mafias. Their job was killing people - that was what they practice and that's what they were good at. But after following this monk for a few days, stalking him and listening to his Dharma teachings, their whole mind set changed. Instead of stalking the Lama, they decided to become the Lama's bodyguards while he was in China. They took refuge with this Lama on the last day and have even taken the vow of NOT KILLING! This is inspiring, and this is what I mean Dharma can change lives, can help people be better human beings.
So I'll leave politics aside for awhile and try to look on the brighter side in the light of Dharma. May there be more peace, more harmony, more happiness, more prosperity (inner and outer) in everybody's lives! ...before it all disappear one day.
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I hope you’ll view my posts as intense interest to learn more and to see “the light at the end of the tunnel” instead of trying to undermine the ban.
I don't think it helps to develop a 'rosy' view of the ban because this simply helps the Dalai Lama's case and gets him off the hook. It also implies that no-one has to do anything to undermine the ban because it's all part of the plan and Dorje Shugden's got it all under control. I think such optimism is naive, given the tremendously destructive nature of the ban as Trinley Kalsang has said.
Why wouldn't someone want to undermine the ban? I can't see the logic in this at all. I don't believe for one minute that the Dalai Lama is about to say "oh, sorry, silly me, of course I was wrong - let's undo all the damage" - again, this is naive optimism. The Dalai Lama won't undo the ban unless he's shamed into it by the world seeing what's going on and how the Dalai Lama's actions are contradictory to the present view of him as a purveyor of peace, which is what the WSS is trying to do.
I believe that without action, there is no "light at the end of the tunnel". I know you don't accept this, but I believe this action to undermine the ban is meaningful and helpful.
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I also think we need to be able to discriminate between 'views that make us feel good' & 'positive views'. Of course a positive view will always make us feel good where our wisdom is clear, but sometimes we hold onto unwise views because they alow us to avoid facing truths our attachment does not want to face. The temporary release from suffering they then provide 'feels good' & so we think it is wise. I see this a lot in regards to people's aversions to activities opposing the ban. It feels good to find reasons to not have to actively oppose it, or to find ways of opposing it that don't go against our attachment to external peace & quiet. Maybe people here don't have this problem, but I do think it's something each of us has to check thoroughly in our own mind.
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To what extent is this another high lama getting involved in politics? That preceding post is unclear about what exactly he'll be doing in his role. Though some of the things he addressed in his speech at The World Buddhist Furum remind me of the sort of things the DL likes to spend his time addressing.
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I think we need to see Panchen Lama's role in China as sort of an advisory and supportive role in that nation. His Holiness' disposition in this life time is really different from his previous as he hasn't got the upper hand of things(yet).
Once he wins the nation's faith and admiration, things will change. I can tell one thing for sure is that Tibetan Buddhism is winning many many of the Chinese nation's heart due to the fact that not only it is intellectually challenging for them but it also fills in the gaps which are missing in their lives.
China is growing to be more of a nation loved country and with its millions of people, there will sure be a demand for spirituality, especially Tibetan Buddhism.
I pray for the revival of Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine in the hearts of these people who are in need for your Dharma of the unmistaken path to Enlightenment my Lord. Please grant all these people their wish.
sarva mangalam
HN
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Dear Vajraprotector, TrinleyKalsang and others who posted.
Firstly, I wish to express my gratitude for the learning gained through reading the constructive debate and sharing of points of view on this forum. It is also very inspiring to experience the deep care and sincere desire displayed by everyone in their posts. THANK YOU!!!
I would like to contribute the little I know about individuals in China who have sincere desire to learn PURE Dharma and practice it in their daily lives. The Chinese are so deprived of spirituality and the recent boom in their material progress has developed this vacuum in their souls that they are beginning to discover. This leads to their adventure into learning about Buddhism and, for some, specific interest in Tibetan Buddhism due to 1) its rapid and successful growth worldwide and 2) the history of Tibetan Buddhism in China.
Like the Japanese and Germans who still experience the shame of the cruelty their previous leaders created in the 1930s to 1940s, some Chinese individuals (although not all) feel a similar shame. They recognize that their government has done things that are against human rights, not only to other nations but also to their own (as we know, many Chinese nationals suffered under the Red Guards). However, they are not able to openly express this. Therefore, in my experience, the Chinese are starting to develop an understanding about Tibetan Buddhism by, as a start, viewing the religion to be separate from politics (to avoid any internal conflict of patriotism and truth). These individuals encounter obstacles in their effort to develop full understanding about Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism because the information they are given are filtered and controlled by the authorities. Example: facebook, youtube, many websites (including this one) are inaccessible to them.
I am not justifying that what happened in Tibet is OK and it is not my intention to slight the injustice and suffering experienced by the Tibetans (I apologize in advance if I have offended anyone). My motive to share the above is to ask for a moment of consideration for the common Chinese individual: they deserve a chance to liberation and enlightenment too.
Besides the above reason, having Tibetan Buddhism and Dharma grow in China will bring great benefits to the Buddhadharma, the world and sentient beings in the near future. Currently, China has great influence (power) over the world economically and politically. At this moment, they may be using this power for the benefit of a very limited group of people. However, if Dharma is to touch more Chinese people of influence: open up their Dharma seed and have the seed grow, imagine the good this affect can have on the world. If America can give Tibetan Buddhism such fantastic growth in the last 4 decades, I would imagine the impact China can have will only be more for the next 4 decades. Maybe, with pure Dharma at heart, not only will Tibet and its people gain freedom from suffering one day, other nations that are at war today will have the same good fortune. This will not happen overnight, but as people of Dharma, let’s take the first step.
Buddha asks us to practice Dharma for the benefit of all sentient beings of the 6 realms. This is a great opportunity for us to do so.
Again, with this being a sensitive matter, I want to thank you for reading and ask for your patience with my expression if any offense was made.
May Dharma grow in places where there is no Dharma and increase in place where the seeds have open. Most importantly, in the case of China, may all misunderstandings of pure Dharma be corrected with sincere efforts of Dharma upholders.
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Dear All,
Reading all that everyone has posted here has been very constructive. The exchange of views and points has been factual, passionate and compelling. My knowledge is still growing and I am grateful to have read all that is said here. Thank you to ALL of you.
I agree with Lee Dhi on her points about the Chinese. The speed and size which they have grown as a nation will definitely leave millions lost in the soul. Chasing materialistic needs and economical advancements leaves no time for spiritual growth. All fast-paced nations have this similar problem which is why they will resort to religion/spirituality at some point when there is decay in human kindness. So, like the Western world which developed earlier, the essence of spirituality is seeked and grows as part of the balance of living. On this note, with China, they will one day want to fill the spiritual vacuum, we as Dharma practitioners should pave the way for them now and not when they think they need it, it may be too late and too much sadness resulted. As all things have progressed, the practice of Dharma too should be progressive and pro-active and be available to all beings. We can make it happen.
We should not void nor underplay the pains and sufferings of many with the DS ban. And, we should not overplay a "rosy-feel-good picture" of the future for this practice. Understanding the past is important and having hope for the future is equally necessary. I do see great possibility for the spread of DS in China as one practice for their spiritual growth. Not all but only 1% of China's population adopting this practice is millions of lives benefitting. In no way to offend anyone, but perhaps the politics in this case of China can actually be a cause of this practice to grow. Please do not misunderstand my statement here, I am not saying that politics and religion should mix.
At the end of it, all said and done, we all want the practice of Dorje Shugden to spread across all boundaries, nations and all sentient beings!
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1. Watch this video extracted from http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=81
Monastery with Dorje Shugden in Chamdo, Tibet This monastery in Tibet is HUGE!
Jampa Ling in located in Chamdo, Tibet. It was built by Lord Tsongkhapa’s disciple in 1444. It has 12 dratsangs (schools) and there used to be 5000 monks during its prime. It is surrounded by many small chapels, and is especially famous for its annual “Lama Dance”.
2. Watch this excellent video on Dorje Shugden produced by Denma Gonsa Rinpoche’s Monastery (dual language – Tibetan and Mandarin)
In Tibetan language: extracted from http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=490
Since Tibet is part of China now... I guess many Chinese will definitely be exposed one way or another to Dorje Shugden practices.
May Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings continues to flourish to bring us out of the darkness of samsara!
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The Bodichitta generates swirls of whirling Love is Fantastic!
From My Heart to Yours!
We'll just keep passing it around,
Until all the Love contained Inside,
Explodes As a Love Bomb!
Too Cool!
We are on a Roll!
I see the End coming soon,
I can feel it in my bones.
Lighter and Brighter
After Decades of Despair
After Centuries of Repression
Dorje Shugden is Ringing the Bell
His Vajra Is Kicking Us to Incredible Heights
Dorje Shugden & His Complete Retinue
Remember to come back!
Come back,
Continue to bring the dharma
Continue to Help All the Sentient Beings
To Rise And Shine!
thankyou tk!
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Dear Thom,
This is a great post. Thank you so much. I have started another thread on it because more ppl should see this.
You always have great posts and educational too.
Much appreciated,
TK
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Dear Lhakpa Gyaltshen,
I too look forward to the day where
"Dorje Shugden is Ringing the Bell
His Vajra Is Kicking Us to Incredible Heights"
and "Dorje Shugden & His Complete Retinue
Remember to come back!
Come back,
Continue to bring the dharma
Continue to Help All the Sentient Beings
To Rise And Shine!"
Perhaps all that we have discussed "the bigger picture", the WSS' role - whether they are contributor or have made the conflict worse, whether Dalai Lama is the angel or demon, it really doesn't matter when the ban is lifted.
Thank you for reminding us to look forward to this day.
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Thank you, VajraProtector, for your positive thoughts. The situation in China is changing. Everything is impermanent. It is through the transformation of the minds of the ordinary Chinese that we can make progress. I'd like to quote from an article written by Ben Blanchard (Reuters) on 27.2.2010:
"Tibet's troubled politics may have grabbed headlines for decades, but the relationship between Tibetans and the dominant Han Chinese is far more complex and multifaceted than the bitter public arguments suggest.
The two peoples share a long historical attachment to Buddhism, which years of communist rule has never managed to kill...
The deeply religious Tibetans revere their exiled spiritual leader the Dalai Lama as a living Buddha. Yet so do some Han, despite Beijing's frequent lambasting of him as a separatist who espouses violence, charges he strongly denies.
These Han do not see that as a contradiction, especially those who visit Tongren, a heavily Tibetan region in the arid, mountainous northwestern province of Qinghai, where the Dalai Lama was born in 1935.
"He is the holiest of them all," said Xiao Li, a Han from the wealthy eastern province of Jiangsu and a fervent Buddhist. "My heart jumps a beat whenever I see his picture. He is the most important of all the living Buddhas."...
Buddhism is an ancient faith in China, dating back more than 1,000 years. The religion was introduced to both China and Tibet from India.
Though there are no hard and fast figures, some Chinese surveys put the number of practising Buddhists in the country today at around 100 million, including Tibetans, Han Chinese, Mongolians and a few other ethnic minorities such as the Dai. ...
During the chaos of the Cultural Revolution, fanatical Red Guards smashed up temples, churches and mosques.
Those policies have mellowed considerably in recent years, with the Communist Party seeing religion as an important force for social stability, even if it continues to exercise control over the appointment of senior religious figures.
One monk, who has faced repeated police questioning for illegally travelling to India to study at a religious college run under the auspices of the Dalai Lama, said he counted many Han Chinese among his students of Buddhism.
"They are looking for meaning in their lives and find that we as Tibetan Buddhists can give it to them," said the monk, .... We help them understand the scriptures," he added, waving a book of the Dalai Lama's teachings printed in the Sanskrit-based Tibetan script.
At lunar new year celebrations last week, monks at one monastery freely carried out a complex ceremony complete with ornate, embroidered silk costumes that culminated in the unfurling of a giant image of the Buddha on a nearby hillside.
It attracted a small, though fascinated, crowd of Han Chinese tourists, who marvelled at the religious devotion shown in a country run by a staunchly atheist Communist Party.
"They have far more complex emotions than we do," said Fan Liqing from the southern province of Guangdong, watching a procession of vermillion-clad monks.
"I think we can learn a lot from our Tibetan compatriots. They must be doing something right," she said.
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Midakpa and Leedhi,
thank you for your postings - it is certainly very heartening to hear of how Buddhism is having a positive impact on people in China and reconnecting them to Dharma.
I have travelled to China and visited several historical Buddhist sites, such as Wu Tai Shan in the north, which have seen enormous and deep influence from Tibetan Buddhism, especially from Gelugpa teachings. How incredibly connected China already is to Dorje Shugden! Now, as Dorje Shugden arises in the world, it perfectly complements their religious history, which many millions still have great reverence and respect for. There were HUNDREDS of Chinese people visiting from all parts of the country in Wu Tai Shan - every temple was packed, and this was almost winter time, which wasn't even peak tourist season. All is so much in place for them to revive and practice anew Tsongkhapa's holy lineage, complimented by the protection of our great Dharmapala.
I am in no way suggesting that this positivity that we are seeing in China replaces, overrides or overshadows the immense suffering, hurt and pain that millions of DS practitioners have experienced from this ban. I cannot even begin to understand the extent of suffering they may have had to go through. But I do also think we cannot sit forever lamenting this pain - is what our Dharmapala would want us to do? In the same way, many great masters had to suffer tremendous amounts of damage and difficulty during the cultural revolution when EVERYTHING was taken away from them. they felt incredible pain, no doubt, but they turn it into light and we can see now how extraordinarily kind they have been to absorb and bear this suffering for the sake of dharma spreading far out into the world. I have met monks who went to political prison and told us of the 20+ years he had to suffer physical and emotional abuse. But it has never stopped him from practising and by that, he has brought so much more inspiration to others to practice. Something similar (though not exactly the same) can be seen in this situation perhaps?? Perhaps the first little step in healing and finding some peace would be to rejoice sincerely in the many millions that have since been connected to Dorje Shugden and Je Tsongkhapa's lineage.
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Honeydakini and all the ... former Noobs.
You don´t imagine how much I share in your wishes of a huge expansion of the practice among everybody, including of course the largest population in the world, our Chinese brothers and sisters.
I think that, since it´s so important to have good wishes, you might try to perfect them, separating them from two political issues: the Dalai Lama issue and the arising of China as a superpower.
Just wish for the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa to grow in the world. This is amply enough. A complete Ganden Mountain practice will include the practice of our Protector because he is the specific Dharmaprotector for these teachings.
Try not to mix with those two issues, because beyond many things that have already been mentioned in this website, there is one that you seem to ignore or to forget: that anything, I repeat, anything based on politics has the powerful potential of being destroyed at any moment because even a slight change in the roll of bureaucrats, imagine a change of system ... Let´s imagine that all of a sudden a powerful democratic movement ends the power of the Chinese Communist Party. It seems unlikely, but it seemed unlikely in the Soviet Union and see what happened there. Then, if that were to happen, you could find yourself with a bunch of new political characters that --because the Communist Party had this decades long problem with the Dalai Lama-- will restore the Tibetan leader in the Potala, at least in a religious capacity. And what will happen then to the practice of the Protector? The persecution of our people would become incredibly powerful.
And see how that veneer of holiness that comes from politics and fame works already, you yourselves mention the Chinese citizen that talks of the DL as "the most important of all the living Buddhas" ... as if living Buddhas had in their repertoire the "feats" that we know and we don´t want to go on repeating, do we?
So you see, it´s never good to rejoice in anything political, politics is always a treacherous path to walk.
Please let´s pray that, for the benefit of all sentient beings, Lord Tsongkhapa´s teaching will be practiced in a pure way and disseminated in a pure way. Only this could properly expand and increase a meaningful Protector´s practice.
Is it possible that we stop putting our hopes in politics?
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Dear A Friend,
Thank you for your comments. I understand the suffering of those who have been affected by the ban.
H.H. the Dalai Lama is working very hard to make dharma grow and to spread Buddhism worldwide. He is popular in China and most ordinary Chinese inside and outside China respect His Holiness and refer to him (and other High Lamas) as "living Buddhas". It is something they instinctively understand and accept. After all, their ancestors have been practising Buddhism for centuries. Traditionally, the Chinese believe in reincarnation and that Buddhas emanate for the benefit of mankind.
This has nothing to do with politics. Ultimately, it has to do with the individual's quest for liberation from samsara and we look to the "living Buddhas" for help. They are here for this purpose anyway. And we all know that these enlightened beings have developed skillful means as a result of aeons of practising virtue.
Unfortunately, somehow, politics do get in the way due to our collective karma. I think that whether there's a change of system or not in China also depends on our collective karma. Personally, I don't think the restoration of the Dalai Lama in the Potala will lead to the eradication of the practice of the Protector.
We are ordinary beings, lacking in clairvoyance. How do we know that if the Dalai Lama were to be reinstalled in the Potala, "the persecution of our people would become incredibly powerful"? This is only a hypothesis. We all hold views, some are right views, some wrong. I can't agree with you more that "Lord Tsongkhapa's teaching should be practised in a pure way and disseminated in a pure way". I have no doubt that the Gelug lamas in China are doing just that.
As practitioners, we should LIVE the Lamrim, as taught by Lama Tsongkhapa, Pabongka Rinpoche, our lineage gurus and our own spiritual guide. It is said in the "Summary of Precious Qualities" (in Pabongka Rinpoche, Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, 1991, 2006:84):
Thus, the wise who strongly wish to seek
Holy enlightenment should completely subjugate their pride.
Just as patients in order to be cured depend on doctors,
So should the seeker depend steadfastly on a spiritual guide.
Our spiritual guide, if he/she is a real one, would never teach us to be disrespectful to our lineage masters. Because of our delusions, we see holy beings as ordinary beings with all the faults of ordinary beings, such as attachment to power and fame. Therefore, because of our delusions, we also cannot see what enlightened beings (living Buddhas) see. If we cannot see Buddhas directly, whose fault is it? If we cannot see Dorje Shugden directly, whose fault is it? Do you think the holy ones will reveal their powers and demonstrate their "feats"? If so, then they are no different than you and me.
Is it possible that high lamas, like the Dalai Lama, can actually see and talk to Buddhas, and therefore, Dorje Shugden, too? If we can realise this, all our previous negative views vis-a-vis the Dalai Lama will disappear.
With my deepest respect,
Midakpa
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Hi a friend, thanks for your reminder about not having high hopes in politics. You are very right about that. Politics is dangerous in pure politics itself (i.e. governmental), commercial politics, social politics and off course religious politics. However, as Midakpa points out, politics do get in the way of too many things. Therefore, I believe that we need to make a clear distinction between havings hopes in politics for spiritual prosperity and "using" politics as the vehicle to have Dharma get where we want it to go faster while keeping boths eyes open so that Dharma remains the motivation and focus.
There is conversation that the spiritual growth in China is “controlled” and interpreted by the government. There is probably a lot of validity in such claims. However, the introduction by the government is simply a “seed” for Dharma to grow. The boundless and kind power of our Great King with the sincere efforts of Dorje Shugden & Dharma practitioners will be the nurturing ingredients required to have pure Dharma understanding, practice and growth flourish.
Nevertheless, it is simply wonderful to see worship of Dorje Shugden flourish in one of our world’s most influential nation – China! As a nation that had its culture, tradition and spiritual practice taken away for so many decades, the Chinese people are very thirsty for the revival of these aspects in their lives. I pray that Dorje Shugden will swiftly quench this thirst and enrich the Chinese people minds with compassion, wisdom and sense of being in contribution to others.
In a Dharma teaching on Genzey, I learnt that Genzey (the increasing form of Dorje Shugden’s 4 immediate emanations) is “based” in China’s Wu Tai Shan, one of China’s primary pilgrimage lands. This means that Genzey has very close link to China and her people. The Chinese who worship him with sincere motivation will experience swift result because of this natural strong affinity.
• Genzey rides on a golden horse, which represents swiftness and speed.
• Genzey is gold as he represents wealth (internal and external), increase in merits, health Dharma
attainments.
• It is stated that the sincere practice of Genzhe will bless our minds against negative elements (ability to resist negatives actions) and draw us the positive. This is very important as it can reduce the impact of negative karma and enable accumulation of positive karma, which will support spiritual development.
• VIP!!! As Genzey will bestow us with a lot of blessings (internal and external), it is necessary that we develop a stable and strong mind so that we will continuously and consistently use these blessings for the benefit of others.
• The name “Genzey” can be literally translated into i) growth (Gen) and ii) all aspect that we require growth in (zhe).
Buddhism and Buddha are established for the whole world…for all sentient beings. Those who have been so fortunate to be touched by our kindest Guru(s) and the Dharma must return this kindness by having the open heart and mind to share all that we have learnt with everyone!
With this sharing, I pray that our Chinese friends will have the merits to have Genzey in their lives and may Genzey open theirs minds to being of benefit to all sentient beings!
Ps: With the kind advise from Dharma friends, I visited the Chinese Dorje Shugden website: http://blog.sina.com.cn/dorjeshugden
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Lee Dhi
Nice sharing about Gyenze. Thank you.
I've had the good fortune to visit Wu Tai Shan, Manjushri's abode and home, historically, to hundreds of Gelugpa monasteries - there are still many temples there with very beautiful prominent images of Manjushri and Tsongkhapa. And what is most remarkable are the many, many people you see there - from around China and around the world - who make the long journey there to pay their respects and make prayers.
What LeeDhi said is true in that the Chinese do have a very strong and beautiful connection with Buddhism. I don't mean this to be about anything political, but about the very simple fact that many people are (re)connecting to Dharma, practice and the blessings of the Buddha.
I agree with you A Friend that the best wish is for the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa to grow in the world. And there seems to be a beautiful sort of rennaissance of Buddhism - if slowly, and perhaps discreetly? - in China.
Apart from the obvious fact that it is a large country with a large population, it is also a place that really does need Dharma more than ever now, what with their huge, rapid external development and large spiritual vacuum of previous decades. I'm happy that even if it may seem contrived, or politically motivated at first, more and more people (within China or elsewhere), are being connected to the blessings of Tsongkhapa and his great protector Dorje Shugden, and all the great Lamas.
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Hi Honeydakini, I agree with you on the very fact that the Chinese people are “reconnecting” with Buddhadharma is worth rejoicing for this moment.
Because the ignition is political and there is still substantial governmental control and filtration of the Dharma content taught, I dare state that many spiritual seekers in China do not have good fortune to receive complete and clear explanations of the very logical and profound teachings of Lord Buddha.
However, the good news is, as learnt from my kind Guru, the simple act of looking at Buddha images, reading Dharma texts, saying mantras as well as making offerings will open up good karma and generate the cause to have pure Dharma seeds grow. Therefore, although Dharma practice is done superficially and lack pure motivation (for the benefit of all sentient beings) at this point in time, it is a powerful start.
As an influential nation, China is imposing its pressure economically, politically as well as socially on other nations. It is unfortunate to admit that the influence used currently has a negative connotation (i.e. bullying). However, as Dharma with the “right” motivation develops in China, I believe this influence will become beneficial and inspire the rest of the world to open their minds and hearts to Dharma. May this happen swiftly during these degenerate times!
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Is it possible that high lamas, like the Dalai Lama, can actually see and talk to Buddhas, and therefore, Dorje Shugden, too? If we can realise this, all our previous negative views vis-a-vis the Dalai Lama will disappear.
Dear friend, this is a matter of imputation. As I said a thousand times, it´s not correct to impute as a Buddha somebody that presents himself as such and does not act as such.
It is not correct because even though a Buddha can manifest deeds against Dharma he/she will never do it when appearing as Buddha; he/she will appear as a crazy person etc.
Buddhas have as main and foremost enlightened action the teaching of what it is that we sentient beings have to adopt and what we have to abandon. That is why their conduct is pure both in their purpose and their appearance. Look at Lord Shakyamuni´s actions, look at Lord Atisha´s actions, look at Lord Tsongkhapa´s actions. Theirs is the behaviour of a Buddha. One can follow their words and imitate their behaviour. It is correct to impute them as Buddhas.
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Dear A Friend,
Thank you for your comments. I understand the suffering of those who have been affected by the ban.
H.H. the Dalai Lama is working very hard to make dharma grow and to spread Buddhism worldwide. He is popular in China and most ordinary Chinese inside and outside China respect His Holiness and refer to him (and other High Lamas) as "living Buddhas". It is something they instinctively understand and accept. After all, their ancestors have been practising Buddhism for centuries. Traditionally, the Chinese believe in reincarnation and that Buddhas emanate for the benefit of mankind.
This has nothing to do with politics. Ultimately, it has to do with the individual's quest for liberation from samsara and we look to the "living Buddhas" for help. They are here for this purpose anyway. And we all know that these enlightened beings have developed skillful means as a result of aeons of practising virtue.
Unfortunately, somehow, politics do get in the way due to our collective karma. I think that whether there's a change of system or not in China also depends on our collective karma. Personally, I don't think the restoration of the Dalai Lama in the Potala will lead to the eradication of the practice of the Protector.
We are ordinary beings, lacking in clairvoyance. How do we know that if the Dalai Lama were to be reinstalled in the Potala, "the persecution of our people would become incredibly powerful"? This is only a hypothesis. We all hold views, some are right views, some wrong. I can't agree with you more that "Lord Tsongkhapa's teaching should be practised in a pure way and disseminated in a pure way". I have no doubt that the Gelug lamas in China are doing just that.
As practitioners, we should LIVE the Lamrim, as taught by Lama Tsongkhapa, Pabongka Rinpoche, our lineage gurus and our own spiritual guide. It is said in the "Summary of Precious Qualities" (in Pabongka Rinpoche, Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, 1991, 2006:84):
Thus, the wise who strongly wish to seek
Holy enlightenment should completely subjugate their pride.
Just as patients in order to be cured depend on doctors,
So should the seeker depend steadfastly on a spiritual guide.
Our spiritual guide, if he/she is a real one, would never teach us to be disrespectful to our lineage masters. Because of our delusions, we see holy beings as ordinary beings with all the faults of ordinary beings, such as attachment to power and fame. Therefore, because of our delusions, we also cannot see what enlightened beings (living Buddhas) see. If we cannot see Buddhas directly, whose fault is it? If we cannot see Dorje Shugden directly, whose fault is it? Do you think the holy ones will reveal their powers and demonstrate their "feats"? If so, then they are no different than you and me.
Is it possible that high lamas, like the Dalai Lama, can actually see and talk to Buddhas, and therefore, Dorje Shugden, too? If we can realise this, all our previous negative views vis-a-vis the Dalai Lama will disappear.
With my deepest respect,
Midakpa
Dear Midakpa,
I really liked what you've said because it makes a lot of sense, gives faith and hope. As my spiritual guide also advice us the same over and over again - "never be disrespectful to our lineage masters". Like it or not, the Dalai Lama is a part of the lineage Lamas. And yes due to our own delusions, we see holy beings as ordinary beings with all the faults of ordinary beings.
If we start criticizing one Lama, the seed for seeing fault will start to grow and manifest more. Soon it will be difficult to stop if we continue with this view and slowly we could start judging and seeing fault in many more Lamas, even our own when what they do, DO NOT FIT our PROJECTIONS we impute on them.
Lamas, or high Lamas definitely did not become a Lama overnight. The Dalai Lama himself has been incarnated for 14th lifetimes, so if he was really a Fraud, then why would he still be able to incarnate back in to this world to spread the Dharma? He would be in the 3 lower realms already according to Dharma. So as silly and naive as I may sound, I still do think the Dalai Lama is no ordinary being, and has achieved far more then you and me put together in this lifetime, not counting the past. There is no point in saying He is not an attained being, because proven track record shows clearly He is.
I understand that it is now a very difficult time for many of us, and What we see now is someone lying, persecuting innocent people etc etc. We are unfortunately unable to see what is really the True reasons for shunning Dorje Shugden but we also cannot start defaming for what IF what is being DONE has a greater purpose that we just cannot see yet but would change the course of future? Possible? Anything is possible. Otherwise the existence of Buddhas would not be possible, the believe that we are all potential Buddhas too are not possible. If we become too cynical then why do we even pray for blassings from the Buddhas & lineage masters and have Guru Devotion? Our Guru is a "living Buddha" and so will be other Gurus to other students. Just cause we don't view another person's Guru as "living Buddha" does not mean He is not and we don't expect everyone to view our Guru as a "living Buddha". I surely did not view see my Guru as a "living Buddha" at first sight.
So I do think with all the many reasons debated here on this forum, and like what you mentioned, we cannot judge now. If we see something we don't like, yes it is fine to SAY IT, ASK IT, but I would not try to impute what I project a Dalai Lama, Lama, monk or nun should be like, Sorry.
Thank you again Midakpa.
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Hi a friend, thanks for your reminder about not having high hopes in politics. You are very right about that. Politics is dangerous in pure politics itself (i.e. governmental), commercial politics, social politics and off course religious politics. However, as Midakpa points out, politics do get in the way of too many things. Therefore, I believe that we need to make a clear distinction between havings hopes in politics for spiritual prosperity and "using" politics as the vehicle to have Dharma get where we want it to go faster while keeping boths eyes open so that Dharma remains the motivation and focus.
There is conversation that the spiritual growth in China is “controlled” and interpreted by the government. There is probably a lot of validity in such claims. However, the introduction by the government is simply a “seed” for Dharma to grow. The boundless and kind power of our Great King with the sincere efforts of Dorje Shugden & Dharma practitioners will be the nurturing ingredients required to have pure Dharma understanding, practice and growth flourish.
Nevertheless, it is simply wonderful to see worship of Dorje Shugden flourish in one of our world’s most influential nation – China! As a nation that had its culture, tradition and spiritual practice taken away for so many decades, the Chinese people are very thirsty for the revival of these aspects in their lives. I pray that Dorje Shugden will swiftly quench this thirst and enrich the Chinese people minds with compassion, wisdom and sense of being in contribution to others.
In a Dharma teaching on Genzey, I learnt that Genzey (the increasing form of Dorje Shugden’s 4 immediate emanations) is “based” in China’s Wu Tai Shan, one of China’s primary pilgrimage lands. This means that Genzey has very close link to China and her people. The Chinese who worship him with sincere motivation will experience swift result because of this natural strong affinity.
• Genzey rides on a golden horse, which represents swiftness and speed.
• Genzey is gold as he represents wealth (internal and external), increase in merits, health Dharma
attainments.
• It is stated that the sincere practice of Genzhe will bless our minds against negative elements (ability to resist negatives actions) and draw us the positive. This is very important as it can reduce the impact of negative karma and enable accumulation of positive karma, which will support spiritual development.
• VIP!!! As Genzey will bestow us with a lot of blessings (internal and external), it is necessary that we develop a stable and strong mind so that we will continuously and consistently use these blessings for the benefit of others.
• The name “Genzey” can be literally translated into i) growth (Gen) and ii) all aspect that we require growth in (zhe).
Buddhism and Buddha are established for the whole world…for all sentient beings. Those who have been so fortunate to be touched by our kindest Guru(s) and the Dharma must return this kindness by having the open heart and mind to share all that we have learnt with everyone!
With this sharing, I pray that our Chinese friends will have the merits to have Genzey in their lives and may Genzey open theirs minds to being of benefit to all sentient beings!
Ps: With the kind advise from Dharma friends, I visited the Chinese Dorje Shugden website: [url]http://blog.sina.com.cn/dorjeshugden[/url]
Thank you Lee Dhi on the explanation on Gyenze. Yes I do agree that China does need the Dharma. China was once steep in spirituality and wisdom. Buddhism was a major religion and it was from China that Buddhism spread to south east Asia. Now the reconnection to their spiritual roots is starting again. Thanks for showing us the blog site of a Chinese Dorje Shugden site ... amazing! Imagine 5 years from now, what will it be like? Not Dorje Shugden blogs but WEBSITES and more ...
Isn't it funny how after the Dalai Lama opened his mouth to firmly Ban Dorje Shugden, everything about Dorje Shugden seems to be growing even faster and getting to mainstream media, and making head waves in to different channels that reaches out to the masses!!!
All the TGIE's hard work seems to be creating an opposite result to what they want. One thing's for sure with HH Gaden Trisur going to Shar Gaden to teach soon, Oh my, I think they would best just shut up about the Evil Dorje Shugden already. hehe
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It does take FAITH that there is a bigger picture in what Dalai Lama because of what we can observe and experience ie., ban, persecution, monasteries separating etc ... So what if Dalai Lama is doing a holy tango with Dorje Shugden while the chinese government plays the music?!
Perhaps considering this view that Dalai Lama, despite his OUTER actions are contributing towards Buddhism & Dorje Shugden's growth will help some to reconcile and accept these actions because of faith and trust for a higher reason. What if this view is correct and our perception is limited to our delusions? (armor in place for flying bullets)
On the other side of the coin, there is no logical justification for this view and may only serve to anger and frustrate many. Especially, how there were no issues to start with in practicing Dorje Shugden except that the controversies seems to be surrounding the Dalai Lama, starting with the Great 5th!
And I do take to heart what A Friend, Trinley Kelsang, TK, Lhakpa Gyeltsen and other seniors have shared. Somehow, this thread took me back to reading TK's post "Only Dorje Shugden CAN HANDLE SUCH A BURDEN! Why Shugden has to be the bad guy!" (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1425)
Can we find another way of phrasing our well intentioned view of Dalai Lama which takes into consideration the practical and sensitive issues?
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Dear Snowlion and DSFriend,
Thank you for your comments. They are also my thoughts. I believe in what Tk said that "Only Dorje Shugden can handle such a burden!" If we can look beyond politics and believe in the holy lamas, believe in Dorje Shugden, I'm sure the outcome will be positive. The actions of holy beings, however controversial, must be seen as pure. Only then will we receive their blessings.
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On the other side of the coin, there is no logical justification for this view and may only serve to anger and frustrate many. Especially, how there were no issues to start with in practicing Dorje Shugden except that the controversies seems to be surrounding the Dalai Lama, starting with the Great 5th!
And I do take to heart what A Friend, Trinley Kelsang, TK, Lhakpa Gyeltsen and other seniors have shared. Somehow, this thread took me back to reading TK's post "Only Dorje Shugden CAN HANDLE SUCH A BURDEN! Why Shugden has to be the bad guy!" ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1425[/url])
Can we find another way of phrasing our well intentioned view of Dalai Lama which takes into consideration the practical and sensitive issues?
Dear DSh friend,
Very interesting that you try to armonize your view with the senior´s. It´s touching. Nevertheless quite an impossible enterprise. It´s not the phrasing, it´s the concept. It´s a view so harmful --as far as it is a public one-- that I don´t imagine any way of ever being able to agree with it no matter the way it is phrased. It´s a view that destroys the actions of the Buddhas in the eye of the public. It´s a view that destroys Dharma for others. Very sad that such well intentioned people can be so blind to the harm they can inflict with their niceties.
A couple of days ago a protestant Christian that had had some dealings with Buddhism started talking about the bad things that Buddhists do and about their bad pride for not being able to recognize them publicly. And he mentioned the books burned because of the Dalai Lama ... (just a fraction of what the persecution that he started against our people produced btw...). Happily he was quite talkative so I didn´t have to answer. But imagine to tell him: "the DL is a Buddha, he did that for a good reason that only he knows"! Imagine the damage for his mind, how many life times he would have with a bad opinion about Dharma and the Buddha, with the thought: "I will never follow the teachings of people who behave wrongly and justify what they do based on their status".
It´s bad enough what the DL did. We don´t need to make things still more harmful by covering them with sugar.