dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: vajralight on February 14, 2010, 09:29:37 PM
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Whatever the flood of Noobs and those who want to see the DL as a Buddha may say, the DL is a liar and has created a lot of suffering for many people.
Only the actions of the WSS have diminished the persecution by the TGIE (under the instructions of the DL).
Only the WSS stands up to this dictator, politician in robes. What have the others done????
Nothing........... at least nothing that had any effect. Only the WSS people are not afraid to lose reputation etc. and speak out in order to save Je Tsongkhapas tradition.
If no one speaks up any more, there will be no karma for the lineage to survive. It is a dependent related phenomenon. We create the causes for the lineage to survive, by practicing purely and speaking out against the lies, we do not create causes to have Je Tsongkhapas lineage in this world by remaining silent when others are trying to destroy it.
May the world wake up to the deceit and lies of this imposter Dalai Lama.
Vajra
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Well, again happy Losar to all.
We seem to have hit a rock right now. The two sides, with just a few nuances, have exposed their reasons, and have hit a rock indeed, since both sides invoke an ultimate authority backing their position: their own Gurus.
I have to say that some newbies --sorry, Noobs-- have become somehow more flexible, they seem to accept that there might be some function for the WSS´s position, even though they can´t share it.
Most arguments have been stated and the discussion even though still heated has to run out of gas, unless we accept to go on forever repeating the same reasons that the other side cannot take.
And now what? Shall we continue saying the same things again and again?
I have the hope that we might be able to go on talking, as is TK´s fervent wish.
If we could all of us start thinking on our own, looking for some middle way, some common ground, it might be useful. Otherwise we are going to end up with an actual schism among the Protector´s people.
Ok.
What I´m going to say doesn't sound very soothing, but I remembered something that might put the accusations against the WSS under a different light. The WSS is being accused of expressing hatred and having bad manners against the Dalai Lama. Well, beyond their intentions that are obviously good, do you know that they might have an excellent precedent for ther "rude manners"? Yes. Our forefathers from India, the old Buddhist sages of the holy Vikramashila monastery, when they didn´t approve the speech of one of their teachers, they tied up his writings to the tail of a dog, and released the dog in the city, for everybody to shout at those writings. When Lord Atisha sent "Lamp of the Path", for those sages to examine it, he was running that risk, he knew it and he didn´t condemn the procedure, he submitted himself to it. Happily for all of us his work was applauded, not attached to the tail of a dog.
So compared to this the WSS' manners become all of a sudden almost a Victorian lady´s manners ... this might help to put things in some different perspective ... or so I hope.
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I agree that Dalai Lama is a liar – because he’s not saying what the REAL intention of his ban was, but merely disguising. But I will oversee the lies for my bigger picture which I believe will happen.
Many people are suffering, but perhaps that will benefit tremendous amount of people in the future – we cannot just see in one lifetime, else Dorje Shugden through oracles and his entourage would have told us to protest against the Dalai Lama! So far I haven’t heard of any advise like that through my monk friends.
WSS are not afraid of losing the reputation because what they will lose is NOTHING compared to the Dalai Lama who is the No. 1 icon of Buddhism who have brought so many people to the Dharma. I am sorry but WSS couldn’t bring as many people to the Dharma as Dalai Lama, especially now that their reputation is that of accusing the Dalai Lama to be false and so on (please read The Great Deception for more info).
As for no one speaking up and that there will be no karma for the lineage to survive. I have to disagree. A lineage survive due to sincere practitioners who uphold the lineage through adversities. For example, Tibetan Buddhism was not wiped out although the Tibetans were exiled. The old lineage masters and Geshes escaped Tibet and took with them their knowledge (through years of studies and memorizing texts) and promote it to the world despite the fall of Tibet.
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I agree that Dalai Lama is a liar – because he’s not saying what the REAL intention of his ban was, but merely disguising. But I will oversee the lies for my bigger picture which I believe will happen.
Not only this, he's a liar because he denied there even was a ban. I could post footage from demonstrations in the USA where his representative Tashi Wangdi said "there is no ban".
He has said what the real intention of his ban is - to destroy the practice of Dorje Shugden. As he said in Caux in Switzerland in 1999:
“Until now you have done a very good job on this issue. Hereafter also, continue this policy in a clever way. We should do it in such a way to ensure that in future generations not even the name of Dholgyal (Dorje Shugden) is remembered.”
Please don't delude yourself! There is no 'great plan' to make Dorje Shugden more popular.
Many people are suffering, but perhaps that will benefit tremendous amount of people in the future – we cannot just see in one lifetime, else Dorje Shugden through oracles and his entourage would have told us to protest against the Dalai Lama! So far I haven’t heard of any advise like that through my monk friends.
Oracles can't be trusted. I do believe that Kuten Lama, Geshe Kelsang's Uncle was a genuine oracle of Dorje Shugden but as for the others, I doubt it. It's not wise to invest in oracles because you have no way of knowing if what they are saying is true or not. Rely on the holy Dharma of scripture and insight instead, especially wisdom!
How do you know you're not being called to protest? Monks in India have protested in the past and they were battered by the lay people under the thrall of the Dalai Lama's ban message.
WSS are not afraid of losing the reputation because what they will lose is NOTHING compared to the Dalai Lama who is the No. 1 icon of Buddhism who have brought so many people to the Dharma. I am sorry but WSS couldn’t bring as many people to the Dharma as Dalai Lama, especially now that their reputation is that of accusing the Dalai Lama to be false and so on (please read The Great Deception for more info).
It is not the WSS' job to bring people to the Dharma. The Dalai Lama has stolen the teachings of his root Guru and uses them to increase his own fame and reputation. The only thing that has improved in the Tibetan situation in the past sixty years is the growth of the Dalai Lama's reputation and his popularity amongst A-list movie stars and musicians. Nothing has changed for the exiled community: he has achieved nothing for them.
When people learn that the Dalai Lama is a politician who is using the Dharma to increase his own power they are going to feel bitterly disappointed and let down, and their faith in Dharma will be shattered. No matter how many people the Dalai Lama has 'brought to the Dharma' this will happen because he's not genuine or sincere.
s for no one speaking up and that there will be no karma for the lineage to survive. I have to disagree. A lineage survive due to sincere practitioners who uphold the lineage through adversities. For example, Tibetan Buddhism was not wiped out although the Tibetans were exiled. The old lineage masters and Geshes escaped Tibet and took with them their knowledge (through years of studies and memorizing texts) and promote it to the world despite the fall of Tibet.
No one has ACTIVELY PERSECUTED Tibetan Buddhists in the West, that's why it flourished. The Dalai Lama is actively persecuting Dorje Shugden practitioners and people who meet the Gelugpa tradition through him and the Teachers who propagate his view, either through blind faith or fear, will meet a tradition with its heart torn out. The Gelugpa tradition is dead if people are not practising Dorje Shugden. Our only hope is that Tibetan Teachers, similar to the 101st Ganden Trisur, are practising in secret waiting for the Dalai Lama to pass away so that they can openly practice again, otherwise the Gelugpa tradition is dead in Tibetan society. It will not continue.
Only WSS has the courage to speak out against the Dalai Lama and to put forth a view that, although it is the truth (the Dalai Lama is a fraud), is nevertheless unpalatable to those who wish to have a 'Shangri-la' view of Tibet and its history. Through telling the truth, the Dalai Lama's power will be reduced or obliterated, in which case the lineage will survive and continue. Anti-Shugden people laugh at the WSS figure of 4 million practitioners being affected by the ban, but in 1959 and before the Dalai Lama's ban this was probably an accurate figure if you take into account how many Tibetans are Gelugpas and how popular Dorje Shugden was. You may think that the Dalai Lama's ban has made Dorje Shugden more popular, but this population is now decimated. I've seen people leave our tradition over this issue - lots - so don't tell me this is part of a great plan to improve the popularity of Dorje Shugden. The Dalai Lama's plan is eradication, pure and simple. Only WSS stands against him openly to challenge this so please don't denigrate their contribution to the freedom of a practice you claim to love.
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The Dalai Lama's plan is eradication, pure and simple.
yup. what s/he said.
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Please don't delude yourself! There is no 'great plan' to make Dorje Shugden more popular.
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How do you know? Perhaps at your side of the world Dorje Shugden is not becoming more popular, but what about other places? and other times (in the future)?
Oracles can't be trusted. I do believe that Kuten Lama, Geshe Kelsang's Uncle was a genuine oracle of Dorje Shugden but as for the others, I doubt it. It's not wise to invest in oracles because you have no way of knowing if what they are saying is true or not. Rely on the holy Dharma of scripture and insight instead, especially wisdom!
I belief in oracles and I am sure the monks in Shar Ganden, and Gangchen Rinpoche believe in oracles. Just because you don't believe or doubt them doesn't mean they cannot be trusted. I have heard many stories from my monk friends re many things that the protector has advised them and lead them to success. I also read that Gangchen Rinpoche consulted Dorje Shugden who has advised H.E. to make his healing activities big to benefit many.
Also, Dalai Lama himself benefitted from the Shugden oracle who advised him the route and to leave Tibet.
How do you know you're not being called to protest? Monks in India have protested in the past and they were battered by the lay people under the thrall of the Dalai Lama's ban message.
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I look at Gangchen Rinpoche, Ganden Trisur Rinpoche and other Shugden lamas who continued their work and put their focus on promoting Dharma to others, more than asserting their rights to practice. I am not saying there shouldn’t be protest, but protest that involved monks screaming that Dalai Lama is a liar is a bit too much for me.
It is not the WSS' job to bring people to the Dharma. The Dalai Lama has stolen the teachings of his root Guru and uses them to increase his own fame and reputation. The only thing that has improved in the Tibetan situation in the past sixty years is the growth of the Dalai Lama's reputation and his popularity amongst A-list movie stars and musicians. Nothing has changed for the exiled community: he has achieved nothing for them.
True. It’s not WSS’ job to bring people to Dharma, but it has brought negative image to Buddhism due to the protest – monks and nuns on the streets screaming away at Dalai Lama in their ROBES. I think WSS can do a better job promoting Shugden with the resources and manpower that they have than doing protests. They can publish books, can organise people, have a great informative websites – if they shift their focus, perhaps more people can learn about Dorje Shugden and be interested in Je Tsongkhapa’s holy teachings, eg the Lamrim.
And A-list movie stars and musicians – the world listens and pay attention to them. They are the STARS, we have to face the fact although we do not necessarily like them. And to sum that “the only thing that has improved in the Tibetan situation” is merely Dalai Lama’s reputation, I beg to disagree. There are many who have come into contact with Buddhism through His Holiness, e.g. his best selling books, for example, The Art of Happiness, and many of those books translated into many languages. Dalai Lama also has made Buddhism well known through his meeting with many world leaders, spiritual leaders, conferences with scientists and so on. Dalai Lama has brought Buddhism to great heights.
I am so sorry to say that I care more about Buddhadharma than the “Tibetan” situation. I am not Tibetan, my concern is Dharma and not politics. I look at Dalai Lama’s achievements in terms of his contribution to promote Buddhism, and not his political role. We all know that Tibet has a small chance to ‘fight’ against China, especially with the deteriorating TGIE.
No one has ACTIVELY PERSECUTED Tibetan Buddhists in the West, that's why it flourished. The Dalai Lama is actively persecuting Dorje Shugden practitioners and people who meet the Gelugpa tradition through him and the Teachers who propagate his view, either through blind faith or fear, will meet a tradition with its heart torn out. The Gelugpa tradition is dead if people are not practising Dorje Shugden. Our only hope is that Tibetan Teachers, similar to the 101st Ganden Trisur, are practising in secret waiting for the Dalai Lama to pass away so that they can openly practice again, otherwise the Gelugpa tradition is dead in Tibetan society. It will not continue.
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I don’t think that if people are not practising Dorje Shugden, the Gelugpa tradition will die. Dorje Shugden is a protector practice, it is not the main practice. The main practice is the teachings of JE Tsongkhapa.
Also, Ganden Trisur is not practising in secret. He has joined Shar Ganden. The opening of Serpom and Shar Ganden have brought new hope that a new and great generation of Shugden masters and lineageholders will flourish in the world.
Also, NKT and other centres by Shugden Lamas are flourishing. Nobody can stop them from practising.
I am so sorry to hear about the plight of Tibetans who cannot practise in their communities but the fact is in the world out there, those who are NOT living in Tibetan communities can practise and can make the practise big. NKT is already making it BIG.
You may think that the Dalai Lama's ban has made Dorje Shugden more popular, but this population is now decimated. I've seen people leave our tradition over this issue - lots - so don't tell me this is part of a great plan to improve the popularity of Dorje Shugden. The Dalai Lama's plan is eradication, pure and simple. Only WSS stands against him openly to challenge this so please don't denigrate their contribution to the freedom of a practice you claim to love.
The population is NOW decimated, but it’s not forever. I have faith that Dorje Shugden’s practise will only become stronger, in line with the prophecies that DS will take over Nechung.
I applause WSS to make their voice heard and to make known to the world that Dalai Lama is not listening to their appeal. I feel they have contributed a lot , I don’t deny that, but I am just saying the methods are not that Dharmic, that’s all. I like the facts/ researches they have gathered, and the fact that they have made a stand made a statement to the world that DS practice is something that they hold sacred and they will stand up and speak up.
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vajraprotector -
there is nothing holy about the Dalai Lama - nothing except his holy Gurus, who he has utterly abandoned.
there is nothing unholy about wrathful actions, even when performed by monks and nuns in their robes.
i appreciate your good heart, but you are completely naive and confused. why have you got a picture of this poor, deluded being - this liar, this samaya-breaker - as your avatar (next to our holy Protector whose lineage and practice he is trying to destroy!)?
the Dalai Lama IS a liar. i'm sorry that he has deceived you, i truly am. but deceived you he has - you and millions of others. he's a liar - i have heard him lie directly myself.
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The Dalai Lama's plan is eradication, pure and simple.
I wonder if your Guru is on this list (from 1997):
Now, think. I first started placing restrictions on Dholgyal about seventeen or eighteen years ago. If, to begin with, I had been firmer, it is possible that by this time there would not be much problem. To be frank, Kalsang Gyatso was not well established in England at that time. Twenty years ago too, Sera Med’s Gangchen Lama, was not well established either. Now, I am being quite clear about it. Similarly, twenty years ago, Gonsar Rinpoche was yet to put down any roots. Likewise, Yongkyab Rinpoche of Sera Med and Serkong Tritul from Ganden Jangtse. It is they who are presently spearheading (the opposition). So, if we had imposed strict restrictions twenty years ago and implemented them effectively, we would not have these problems now... My own stand is that these people are now proving to be the real living perfidious spirits. It’s just such a shame.
[url]http://web.archive.org/web/20071018121559/http://dalailama.com/page.156.htm[/url]
On the previous page of the Dalai Lama's talk, perfidious spirit is used to translate darn sri, "the spirit of one who has deliberately breached his oath or commitment to his lama out of resentment and dissension."
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Now, think. I first started placing restrictions on Dholgyal about seventeen or eighteen years ago. If, to begin with, I had been firmer, it is possible that by this time there would not be much problem. To be frank, Kalsang Gyatso was not well established in England at that time. Twenty years ago too, Sera Med’s Gangchen Lama, was not well established either. Now, I am being quite clear about it. Similarly, twenty years ago, Gonsar Rinpoche was yet to put down any roots. Likewise, Yongkyab Rinpoche of Sera Med and Serkong Tritul from Ganden Jangtse. It is they who are presently spearheading (the opposition). So, if we had imposed strict restrictions twenty years ago and implemented them effectively, we would not have these problems now... My own stand is that these people are now proving to be the real living perfidious spirits. It’s just such a shame.
[url]http://web.archive.org/web/20071018121559/http://dalailama.com/page.156.htm[/url]
It's very interesting. If you compare this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20071018121559/http://dalailama.com/page.156.htm
with the latest version on the Dalai Lama's website:
http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness/dharamsala-teaching
You'll see that all this controversial stuff about other lamas has been edited out. The TGIE are always trying to make the Dalai Lama look as if he is sweetness and light itself. They try to hide the Dalai Lama's sectarian excesses and hatred. I think it's called public relations ;)
Under the 'Messages' section, here are the topics:
Buddhism
Compassion
Environment
Religious Harmony
World Peace
Middle Way Approach
Tibet
Acceptance Speeches
Dolgyal (Shugden)
Considering the Dalai Lama's stance towards our glorious Protector and his persecution of his followers, completely contrary to compassion, religious harmony and world peace, the words 'compassion', 'religious harmony' and 'world peace' as headings make strange bed fellows in this list. He might has well have written:
Buddhism
Compassion
Environment
Religious Harmony
World Peace
Middle Way Approach
Tibet
Acceptance Speeches
Religious intolerance and sectarian persecution
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no, no - it's all true. Gurus? wrong, yes, wrong. practitioners? nobody harming on them. ban? there is no ban - only advice.
everything is lovely. i'm Father Christmas. sign here and shut up.
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I'm sure the people behind WSS have a good motivation at heart and it has increased the awareness of the Shugden issue to a global level. As Thomas Canada says in his post, we would never have been able to achieve this without the controversy existing in the first place.
But if defaming the Dalai Lama is the correct way to go, why is it that barely any of the highest Shugden lamas are speaking out against him? These lamas stand up for their practice and their loyalty to Shugden but speak not a word against the Dalai Lama.
Dalai Lama does his thing, they do their thing. Follow their example.
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I'm sure the people behind WSS have a good motivation at heart and it has increased the awareness of the Shugden issue to a global level. As Thomas Canada says in his post, we would never have been able to achieve this without the controversy existing in the first place.
But if defaming the Dalai Lama is the correct way to go, why is it that barely any of the highest Shugden lamas are speaking out against him? These lamas stand up for their practice and their loyalty to Shugden but speak not a word against the Dalai Lama.
Dalai Lama does his thing, they do their thing. Follow their example.
Why are you concerned enough to admonish us? They are speaking out. It's very possible that the book 'A Great Deception' reflects their true views because we don't know who collaborated on it. They can't speak openly because they will be persecuted. In the past, those who have opposed the Dalai Lama openly have received death threats and some have been murdered.
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You'll see that all this controversial stuff about other lamas has been edited out.
All of the Shugden articles in the newly redesigned website are cut off at some point, mid-sentence. I don't think the 'editing' was deliberate, just an oversight on their part. I'm sure they'd be happy to put it back, if they knew about it.
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I'm sure the people behind WSS have a good motivation at heart and it has increased the awareness of the Shugden issue to a global level. As Thomas Canada says in his post, we would never have been able to achieve this without the controversy existing in the first place.
But if defaming the Dalai Lama is the correct way to go, why is it that barely any of the highest Shugden lamas are speaking out against him? These lamas stand up for their practice and their loyalty to Shugden but speak not a word against the Dalai Lama.
Dalai Lama does his thing, they do their thing. Follow their example.
Why are you concerned enough to admonish us? They are speaking out. It's very possible that the book 'A Great Deception' reflects their true views because we don't know who collaborated on it. They can't speak openly because they will be persecuted. In the past, those who have opposed the Dalai Lama openly have received death threats and some have been murdered.
The lamas who are practising Dorje Shugden openly ARE already opposing the Dalai Lama. They are 'affecting' the Dalai Lama's long life and the cause of Tibet. That is how many uneducated Tibetans see it. In their minds, that alone is enough to justify death threats because they don't know any better.
The current Trijang Rinpoche has had many death threats. Hence he is now living elsewhere for his safety. The past Zong Rinpoche has even had actual physical attempts to take his life. And all this is just because they practised Dorje Shugden. So to say that they don't openly support WSS because they fear death threats doesnt sound right to me.
The Great Deception, which is mainly circulated in the West will have very little effect on the Tibetan community. It is meant for a different audience altogether. And as you say, it may be possible that there are some high Shugden lamas behind the great deception. But no one has actually come forward to say so. Instead they practise quietly, hold their commitments, propagate the lineage and let Dalai Lama do what he is doing. FOR NOW.
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duldzin -
i stood next to tibetan disciples of several of these same high Lamas and protested outside the Dalai Lama's public "teachings". they were representing their Lamas' views as their Lamas still felt unable to publicly speak out. to practise openly but in private, or to have your disciples speak out, is very different from standing up and personally, publicly speaking out - that is very dangerous for most tibetans. those i stood with knew this, and were prepared to accept the consequences, even if it meant their own death. but the high Lamas, with so many dependents, cannot do this for the most part; i believe the majority of them would if they had no dependents to worry about.
why do you think the last Ganden Tripa had to wait til he had finished his term of office and secured the Trisur title before publicly defecting? it wasn't cowardice!
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Whatever the flood of Noobs and those who want to see the DL as a Buddha may say, the DL is a liar and has created a lot of suffering for many people.
Only the actions of the WSS have diminished the persecution by the TGIE (under the instructions of the DL).
Only the WSS stands up to this dictator, politician in robes. What have the others done????
Nothing........... at least nothing that had any effect. Only the WSS people are not afraid to lose reputation etc. and speak out in order to save Je Tsongkhapas tradition.
If no one speaks up any more, there will be no karma for the lineage to survive. It is a dependent related phenomenon. We create the causes for the lineage to survive, by practicing purely and speaking out against the lies, we do not create causes to have Je Tsongkhapas lineage in this world by remaining silent when others are trying to destroy it.
May the world wake up to the deceit and lies of this imposter Dalai Lama.
Vajra
I'm all for speaking out and I do think WSS has taken a courageous stand on this issue. We all can see that Dalai Lama has said many contradictory statements and issued bans based on illogical claims. He has been branded as the imposter. However, I do feel (from the short period of time having joint this forum) that we all have the same goal and are "friends of Dharmapala." What is WSS's views on singing a different tune instead, something along the lines of "Dalai Lama, lift the ban", "Dorje Shugden's time has come" etc.. instead of just calling out the negative traits.
I do wish very much for the day we can all practice openly, knowing that NONE of our Dharma brothers and sisters all over the world are being persecuted.
sincerely
dsFriend
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duldzin -
i stood next to tibetan disciples of several of these same high Lamas and protested outside the Dalai Lama's public "teachings". they were representing their Lamas' views as their Lamas still felt unable to publicly speak out. to practise openly but in private, or to have your disciples speak out, is very different from standing up and personally, publicly speaking out - that is very dangerous for most tibetans. those i stood with knew this, and were prepared to accept the consequences, even if it meant their own death. but the high Lamas, with so many dependents, cannot do this for the most part; i believe the majority of them would if they had no dependents to worry about.
why do you think the last Ganden Tripa had to wait til he had finished his term of office and secured the Trisur title before publicly defecting? it wasn't cowardice!
By not defecting during his term of office, Gaden Trisur protected sanctity of the Gaden Tripa's office. He was protecting the lineage of the Gelugs (and indirectly the Dalai Lama). Imagine the consequences if he has defected whilst still holding the position of Gaden Tripa? It would have created even greater hype for the Dorje Shugden faction but the shockwaves would have been more damaging overall.
So someone like Gaden Trisur chooses the bigger picture rather than fulfilling his own wishes. He doesnt speak negatively about Dalai Lama but makes his stance abundantly clear.
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duldzin -
precisely. he, like so many others, felt that he couldn't speak out. i know that many of these high Lamas have privately expressed their deepest thanks and full support to WSS and to Geshe Kelsang personally, and said that they regret not being in a position to offer more overt support.
DSfriend -
we did exactly this back in the 90s. we sang "Dalai Lama: please give religious freedom" and held placards saying "Dorje Shugden loves all traditions", etc., etc. he didn't listen. we gave him opportunity after opportunity to discuss and debate his reasons. he ignored them. we have TRIED to be polite, to be gentle. it hasn't worked. now - sadly - is the time for wrathful actions.
he has left us no choice if we cherish our lineage and wish it to survive for future generations. we must take away his power, break his spell; we must show the world the truth behind his lies.
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duldzin -
we must take away his power, break his spell; we must show the world the truth behind his lies.
I totally agree. We tried dialogue, he wouldn't listen.
Now is the time for Dorje Shugden to show his power and grind the Dalai Lama's deceptive ways to dust through the WSS' actions.
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So someone like Gaden Trisur chooses the bigger picture rather than fulfilling his own wishes. He doesnt speak negatively about Dalai Lama but makes his stance abundantly clear.
What is this so called Big Picture? (I say there isn't any, but if you know one, then please enlighten me. Please start a new thread on that issue, if you feel inclined to reply.)
The fact that the Ganden Tripa had to publicly lie, not by words perhaps but lie nevertheless by silence, tells it all: (1) He was afraid; (2) There was something he was afraid of. While I applaud the actions of the Trisur, I despise the inactions of the Tripa. I of course do not hold this as any uncommon personal defect of the Tripa/Trisur, since the same socio-psychological phenomenon can be seen in Western Universities: The Professors are very modest, even dumbingly low-minded, and especially politically correct while In-House, but when retiring, they publish the best and most interesting works. They tell the truth of their thoughts only then. For when retiring, you cannot be kicked out of an office for saying the "wrong words". The only time these old croacks tell the truth is when they are too old to be a nuisance for the Powers-that-Be. So the idea of fulfilling one's own wishes is just there in the silence; namely, being silent while holding the Title and Power. Really neat. It is called politics, by the way.
When you say: "By not defecting during his term of office, Gaden Trisur protected sanctity of the Gaden Tripa's office", the Real World says that he merely diminished the Office. He made it irrelevant. He made it subservient to the Boss.
And so the World falls... into Kali-Yuga. The good men do nothing. They just keep silence, and retire funnily.
All the Tripa had to do was to say that "DS practice is an integral part of the Gelukpa-tradition, and whoever says otherwise, is ignorant about the tradition in question. I know this, since I'm the Ganden Tripa!" But no. He never said this. He bowed to the Boss. It was a safe move, and he was able to fulfill his tenure. He was a good doggy, and the Master gave him a bone. "Here doggy, here, bite this. Wag your tail!" Now he is kicked to his retirement, and he has no voice any more. The Tripa could have barked, even bite, but the Trisur is just an old shaggy doggie, growling in his shed. Nobody cares what he says. DO NOTE: I am not putting His Holiness the Ganden Tripa/Trisur down, I'm just describing in a colourful way how the situation unfolds and how it looks to a person who does not believe in some hypothetical Big Bicture. The so-called High Lamas, the Heroes, the Bodhisattvas, the Mahasattvas, the Mahasiddhas with all their siddhis, are just mere puppies of a guy called Dalai. That is all there is, nowadays. Mere politics. Nothing else.
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Well, again happy Losar to all.
We seem to have hit a rock right now. The two sides, with just a few nuances, have exposed their reasons, and have hit a rock indeed, since both sides invoke an ultimate authority backing their position: their own Gurus.
Yes, I was just thinking the same thoughts. Where do we go from here! One commonality we share (either sides) is that we have Guru Devotion, which is one of the criteria as Dorje Shugden practitioner.
I have to say that some newbies --sorry, Noobs-- have become somehow more flexible, they seem to accept that there might be some function for the WSS´s position, even though they can´t share it.
I don't like to be called a Noob but hey, I am a "new kid" on the block and I've found this forum very enriching. So, call me what you like, I'm sticking around! A TIME WILL COME when I'm no longer a NOOB :)
Ok.
What I´m going to say doesn't sound very soothing, but I remembered something that might put the accusations against the WSS under a different light. The WSS is being accused of expressing hatred and having bad manners against the Dalai Lama. Well, beyond their intentions that are obviously good, do you know that they might have an excellent precedent for ther "rude manners"? Yes. Our forefathers from India, the old Buddhist sages of the holy Vikramashila monastery, when they didn´t approve the speech of one of their teachers, they tied up his writings to the tail of a dog, and released the dog in the city, for everybody to shout at those writings. When Lord Atisha sent "Lamp of the Path", for those sages to examine it, he was running that risk, he knew it and he didn´t condemn the procedure, he submitted himself to it. Happily for all of us his work was applauded, not attached to the tail of a dog.
So compared to this the WSS' manners become all of a sudden almost a Victorian lady´s manners ... this might help to put things in some different perspective ... or so I hope.
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Thanks A Friend for sharing this view. It does shed some light to how perhaps WSS "justifies" for their methods. There's so much contradictions from Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden as pointed out clearly by TK. I do not have clairvoyance and is impossible to see into DL or DS's mind. Thus, striving for equanimity is my only option and holding steadfast to my practice is something I will and can do.
I've posted somewhere in this forum about how in one of Shakyamunu's previous life, he killed to save many people. If we were to use this story to justify our conduct, then Buddhism will certainly have a totally different face and message for the world today. Thank Buddha this is not the case and no groups have gone all out to use this as a a precedent for their cause.
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dsFriend -
wake up, please. ask disciples of Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche, a prominent Dorje Shugden Lama, why he was murdered.
you cannot have your cake and eat it. EITHER you stop practising Dorje Shugden OR you act against the express wishes of the Dalai Lama. EITHER Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit OR the Dalai Lama is completely wrong about him and wrong to suppress his practice. EITHER the Dalai Lama is completely deluded and trying to destroy the holy Dharma OR he's enlightened and correct, and Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit. you decide.
and also - you talk of "sides". there are no sides here - please don't start using such terms: it's potentially divisive. we are ALL Dorje Shugden practitioners here - its just that some among us have a different, (and in my view frankly a bizarre and logically flawed) idea about the Dalai Lama and how to protect our lineage. but we are all on the same side. the only "sides" are Dorje Shugden practitioners defending their lineage against those who follow the Dalai Lama and are therefore hostile towards this lineage. you (despite your crazy ideas! ;D) are on our side.
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The lamas who are practising Dorje Shugden openly ARE already opposing the Dalai Lama. They are 'affecting' the Dalai Lama's long life and the cause of Tibet. That is how many uneducated Tibetans see it. In their minds, that alone is enough to justify death threats because they don't know any better.
The Dalai Lama alone will be responsible if any Shugden practitioner is harmed because he has circulated the wrong and irresponsible view that Shugden practice harms his health.
This is yet another reason why he's a liar.
Shugden Lamas don't have any choice but to act 'behind the scenes' but you shouldn't take their lack of vocal support for the actions of the WSS to mean that they don't support them or that they aren't involved in 'A Great Deception'. I do agree that the book is intended for a Western audience, but surely this is where his power really is? If he hadn't courted Westerners, he wouldn't have had two movies made about his life story or be regarded as a virtual saint throughout the world.
I hope that this is about to come crashing down. The truth needs to be told.
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But if defaming the Dalai Lama is the correct way to go, why is it that barely any of the highest Shugden lamas are speaking out against him? These lamas stand up for their practice and their loyalty to Shugden but speak not a word against the Dalai Lama.
Dalai Lama does his thing, they do their thing. Follow their example.
I agree with you on that question duldzin. It is very logical. We can look at their example for they are not just Lamas but high Lamas with their vows intact. If the Dalai Lama will destroy Tsongkhapa's teaching like what Vahraholder mentioned, I'm sure they would have said something. But obviously not. They may have thank you privately, so why the need to do it privately?
I am a big fan of Gangchen Rinpoche, and he is on the wanted hit list of the Tibetan Govt site but I've never once heard him said or encourage defaming the Dalai Lama. I don't see Trijang Rinpoche saying we should defame the Dalai Lama and I don't think the Dalai Lama can destroy our lineage. Why because Dorje Shugden is a "Dharma Protector". And just because we are not shouting to defame the Dalai Lama doesn't mean we are allowing or agreeing with the ban.
I just think a different approach could be used instead. People who are not Buddhist will basically look at both parties equally confused, not really care much about the benefits of the practice but instead they will see the shouting and name calling actions as either "Buddhist not acting very Buddhist".
In my opinion he is playing a political game with his own people who wants a Free Tibet. Most of them feels that this is an even bigger issue then the Dorje Shugden ban. The would put Dharma 2nd priority and Tibet 1st. Eventually the cat will jump out of the bag as sorry to say but how long more does the Dalai Lama have? Already the Tibetan youths are taking matters into their own hands as the grow impatient with Dalai Lama's methods.
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but instead they will see the shouting and name calling actions as either "Buddhist not acting very Buddhist".
This has been repeated a lot in the last days and I don´t think it´s correct. I've been observing public reactions at the time of the demos, in 2008, and in general people were very interested in them and rather sympathetic. Actually people kind of like to see Buddhist monks involved in politics, they applaud when they protest against their government like they did in Myanmar, or against political events, like at the time of the unfortunate wars in Eastern Asia when the monks committed suicide by fire. Similarly they mostly seemed to approve the demos against DL, and both the public and the journalists that wrote about those demonstrations were in general appreciative of the fact that those shouting in the streets were defending a persecuted minority. To do this is something that is generally approved in our world. I got the feeling that the only criticism came from intellectuals working for the DL´s side already, or from those journalists desirous to be in agreement with the showbiz people, with the fashionable people. Or from those too angry with themselves for having showered so much adoration on the Tibetan leader in the past. After all, nobody likes to acknowledge errors of judgment.
I think it would be fair if you at least tried to understand some benefits from the WSS demonstrations:
1-They were the main outer factor for Shar Ganden and Serpom to arise without the monks being thrown out of the monasteries' land or out of India altogether, as was the intention of DL.
2-Forever they are going to be our shield against a very serious dammaging accusation that we might've suffered were it not for those demonstrations and other actions of the WSS: that we Buddhists cover up infamous actions like the segregation and oppression of a religious minority.
3-Forever they are going to be a shield against the accusation that Tibetan Buddhism constitutes a cult where the leader is protected no matter his actions. This accusations might've arisen at any moment presently or in the future, were it not for the actions of WSS.
I don´t think WSS is demanding from every Buddhist to join them. But I understand that they don´t like it that their justified actions be tainted by unfair accusations from those who should be helping them at least with prayers and prudent silence.
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This has been repeated a lot in the last days and I don´t think it´s correct. I've been observing public reactions at the time of the demos, in 2008, and in general people were very interested in them and rather sympathetic.
Actually people kind of like to see Buddhist monks involved in politics, they applaud when they protest against their government like they did in Myanmar, or against political events, like at the time of the unfortunate wars in Eastern Asia when the monks committed suicide by fire. Similarly they mostly seemed to approve the demos against DL, and both the public and the journalists that wrote about those demonstrations were in general appreciative of the fact that those shouting in the streets were defending a persecuted minority. To do this is something that is generally approved in our world. I got the feeling that the only criticism came from intellectuals working for the DL´s side already, or from those journalists desirous to be in agreement with the showbiz people, with the fashionable people. Or from those too angry with themselves for having showered so much adoration on the Tibetan leader in the past. After all, nobody likes to acknowledge errors of judgment.
I think people like to see PEOPLE STAND UP FOR THEIR OWN RIGHTS, not necessarily “like to see Buddhist monks involved in politics”.
1) WSS dislike Dalai Lama mixing politics with religion, so are you saying people like to see Buddhist monks involved in politics? Then perhaps Dalai Lama should not be criticised for mixing politics with religion?
2) There are many types of “people” out there. There are who like to see Buddhist monks involved in politics, there are people who like to see other people being harmed, there are people who like to harm other people, all sorts.
But in the view point of Dharma practitioners, I think it hurts them to see “Buddhists against Buddhists” , especially for those who love the Dalai Lama and their protector equally. They are then forced to make a choice – either they choose the protector and give up Dalai Lama, or they chose Dalai Lama – either way is no win (that’s what I think).
I think it would be fair if you at least tried to understand some benefits from the WSS demonstrations:
1-They were the main outer factor for Shar Ganden and Serpom to arise without the monks being thrown out of the monasteries' land or out of India altogether, as was the intention of DL.
2-Forever they are going to be our shield against a very serious dammaging accusation that we might've suffered were it not for those demonstrations and other actions of the WSS: that we Buddhists cover up infamous actions like the segregation and oppression of a religious minority.
3-Forever they are going to be a shield against the accusation that Tibetan Buddhism constitutes a cult where the leader is protected no matter his actions. This accusations might've arisen at any moment presently or in the future, were it not for the actions of WSS.
I don´t think WSS is demanding from every Buddhist to join them. But I understand that they don´t like it that their justified actions be tainted by unfair accusations from those who should be helping them at least with prayers and prudent silence.
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I am sorry but I have to disagree with no. 1 that WSS was the main outer factor for Shar Ganden and Serpom to arise.
And I’m sorry to say that “Forever they are going to be a shield” may not necessarily apply, I have heard much bad press about the WSS as well, but just as I do not criticise the Dalai Lama, I do not wish to speak ill about the WSS as well as they did contributed to create awareness of DS. Also, as WSS is a “political” movement, it could be disbanded. Any political movement, we cannot be sure of their other motives or behind the scenes’ “objectives” that they want to achieve.
Just as WSS has highlighted that Dalai Lama is a political person and his wish to gain power BEYOND anything, Dalai Lama is now persecuting DS practitioners to gain power. Hence, WSS to might have their own hidden agenda.
Also, His Holiness always emphasized that people can practice Dorje Shugden privately and at their own places and there has never been a restriction for Shugden followers to set up their own monasteries. So what is sold as a success now by WSS is rather a natural outcome of what has been emphasized by H.H. the Dalai Lama and the TGIE ever since.
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Also, His Holiness always emphasized that people can practice Dorje Shugden privately and at their own places and there has never been a restriction for Shugden followers to set up their own monasteries. So what is sold as a success now by WSS is rather a natural outcome of what has been emphasized by H.H. the Dalai Lama and the TGIE ever since.
This is just plain not true.
Could you please study the facts? Do not act here as a loud speaker of other people's non truths. Please.
Ever since! I just can't believe that you said that.
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Vajraprotector,
I'm finding it hard to believe you're not some kind of plant from the Dalai Lama's followers. Your views are so harmful and undermine the very purpose that practitioners of Dorje Shugden are working for. You spread dangerous heresies such as WSS is a political organization and cannot be trusted. What are you doing practically to oppose the BAN (yes, there is a ban - no private practice allowed or else the Dalai Lama's 'heavies' will turn up on your doorstep and stop you.) The Dalai Lama himself said, menacingly, that it would not be good if they (those who oppose the practice of Dorje Shugden) had to knock on people doors. That's exactly what they've done in some cases.
People are suffering because of this ban. The only people who are taking action is the WSS and you've got the audacity to question the motives of the WSS even though it's only ever helped Dorje Shugden practitioners by highlighting the Dalai Lama's draconian actions and protecting them from the worst excesses of the TGIE and its followers.
You're doing nothing but harm and causing division with your views, rather like the Dalai Lama himself.
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"Vajraprotector" -
before you or any of you others start complaining about us being all angry and un-Buddhist i want to tell you that you have no idea of the personal betrayal that Lhakpa Gyaltsen has been through directly at the hands of the Dalai Lama. we have all suffered as a result of this man's persecution and many here feel that betrayal. you too, definitely, have been betrayed - can't you see that? you call him "His Holiness" - this is laughable. there is nothing holy about the Dalai Lama except his Gurus, who he also betrayed. your trust in him, your faith - he has utterly betrayed.
the WSS has to stand up to him. this issue will not just go away of it's own accord. do you think Dorje Shugden will magically appear from the sky and sort it all out? Dorje Shugden, like all Buddhas, works in this world through emanations and by blessing the minds of sentient beings. what do you think those emanations, and those sentient beings whose minds he has blessed, are doing: sitting quietly and hoping it'll all just go away?
of course everyone must choose between the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden! but whose fault is that? Dorje Shugden's? the WSS'? no - it is solely the fault of the Dalai Lama. he has created this schism. he has broken the hearts of millions of Tibetans. he has betrayed thousands of starry-eyed western followers (yes, and Malaysians too!)
and all this "Trijang Rinpoche never criticises him; Dorje Shugden himself through oracle said not to criticise him" nonsense: you cannot trust what most Tibetans say publicly about the Dalai Lama - but that isn't their fault. it's because of the danger they and their dependents face from the Dalai Lama! the only Tibetans whose public statements on this issue you can trust are those who have cut all ties with the Dalai Lama and the TGIE and are hence no longer under their thrall, and there are very few of those. check out what Geshe Kelsang has said, for an example. then, if you want to know what many of them think privately, read A Great Deception. where do you think all that info. came from? why do you think there are no authors' names given?
you cannot trust what oracles say on this issue, either. oracles are human beings and can be bought and threatened too. if you were an oracle and you knew exactly what the TGIE would do to you if Dorje Shugden, through you, were to tell everyone that the Dalai Lama is a lying maniac - what would you do?
so for goodness' sake: wise up. stop with this nonsense. learn to distinguish fact from wishful thinking. and try to distinguish wrath - a powerful and fierce compassion - from anger - the wish to harm another sentient being. none of us wishes to harm you. none of us wishes to harm the Dalai Lama. we just want to knock some sense into him and stop him harming himself and so many others. including you.
he has betrayed you.
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As long as we don't resist the actions of Mr. Dalai, we are supporting him.
It is time to spit out all the lies that we have been forced to swallow