dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: TARA on July 06, 2015, 12:48:06 AM
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Tsem Rinpoche adopts a middle way approach to the ban and asks for dialogue with the Dalai Lama to resolve the conflict. This is a peaceful way without hurting anyone and is in accord to what the Dalai Lama is advocating around the globe.
We all know Mahatma Gandhi as the man who led his country to freedom peacefully without blood shed and Nelson Mandela the anti-apartheid revolutionary leader who gained racial reconciliation through peaceful method. This is also the way to go for Shugden conflict. Hence, I hope to see Tsem Rinpoche leading the way for Shugden reconciliation with the Dalai Lama and ending the Shugden ban.
The ban certainly has to end now. The reputation of Buddhism as a peaceful religion must be preserved and the oppressed Shugden community who have suffered greatly for 19 years now must once again unite with the Dalai Lama.
Here is the link to all Tsem Rinpoche's pleas and appeals to the Dalai Lama:
http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/dorje-shugden/my-pleas-to-his-holiness-dalai-lama.html (http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/dorje-shugden/my-pleas-to-his-holiness-dalai-lama.html)
http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/inspiration-worthy-words/appeal-to-h-h-the-dalai-lama.html (http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/inspiration-worthy-words/appeal-to-h-h-the-dalai-lama.html)
(http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Placard-0)45.jpg
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(http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Placard-045.jpg)
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(http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Placard-008.jpg)
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This new signage campaign is great. However, even if the DL sees these pleas, he has shown over and over for many many years that regardless of the form a communication may take, he simply doesn't give a shit, because dialogue or changing his stance does not serve the political agenda that is now very deeply entrenched. If the "Buddha of Compassion" can see horrendous actions being taken against his own people, then sit laughing while he says it is coming directly from him and he does nothing to stop it but rather praises people for carrying out his agenda, you think a little sign speaking sweetly is gonna change his mind and agenda?
Not likely. If compassion was actually his agenda, he wouldn't have started the persecution to begin with. But, I applaud the effort to appeal to his Buddhaseed. Its the karma of protecting the Three Jewels that is the essence irregardless of a change in the actual ban, so I applaud Tsem Rinpoche's contribution to the protest.
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Thank you Tsem Rinpoche for the appeals to His Holiness, I fully agree with what Tara said buddhism is a peaceful religion but with the ban it has create a lot of havoc to practitioner and all these protest that happen in the world is a very negative impact to the world so is time to stop all these protest and violence against the DS practitioner.
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I applaud HE Tsem Rinpoche for His pleas and appeals to the Dalai Lama to lift the Ban on Dorje Shugden. Would the Dalai Lama be moved to compassion? What is important is the sincerity of HE Tsem Rinpoche and the clear manner He has expressed His point of view.
No efforts should be spared to support all these great Lamas in their efforts to benefit others with clear and truthful explanations of the propitiation of the Great Dharmapala.
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Thank you Tsem Rinpoche for your courage to announce to the public that you practice DS and also the new signage campaign to appeals to the Dalai Lama. Dalai Lama, please do not ignore the pleas and appeals. The world is watching and Shugdenpas are waiting. The ban has to be lifted to end the suffering of innocent people.
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I think it is good to reinvent new ways to bring out the message of the ban to the world. We have to keep trying various methods to let more and more of the people in the world to know about the Dorje Shugden ban.
We will never know what can happen. What I know is that, if we keep the pressure we may have a better chance at hacking away at this ban. And Tsem Rinpoche's way is the middle way, not to hurl abuses or call the Dalai Lama names but lets get together and resolve this long running issue.
Please the talks by Tsem Rinpoche and students, tell us we there is another approach to the Dorje Shudgen issue with logic and reasoning.
@Chokyi Dorje The Dalai Lama is no fool, he has done things that is in contradiction to the ban, like allowing Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden
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Plus the talks by Tsem Rinpoche and students, tell us we there is another approach to the Dorje Shudgen issue with logic and reasoning.
Sorry Typo.
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At this moment in time. whether this new middle way approach will work or not remains to be seen. But, at least it is a fresh new approach. Anyone else have anymore ideas? Even if the Dalai Lama does not respond, it may have set some of his followers thinking on the true nature of the Dharma.
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Tsem Rinpoche has consistently employed the Middle Way approach to the ban. He has chosen rightly to abide by the instructions of his root guru in keeping with his practice of Shugden, given to him by his Root Guru, Zong Rinpoche. Following the instructions of one’s Guru is a hallmark of devotion to one’s spiritual Guide, a basic tenet of Tibetan Buddhism. In this way, he ensures that he has not broken his commitments to his Guru and his samaya with his Guru is clean. At the same time he has shown nothing but respect towards the Dalai Lama and non-Shugden Lamas and practitioners.
Consistent with this middle way approach is this appeal and strong plea by him to H H Dalai Lama that he allows peaceful dialogue between the 2 parties , to end the conflict. His is the firm voice that speaks out on behalf of Shugden practitioners who have been persecuted and discriminated against, and often violently abused for 19 years since the day the ban was imposed. Please go to this link and find out more
http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/buddhas-dharma/who-is-dorje-shugden-to-me.html (http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/buddhas-dharma/who-is-dorje-shugden-to-me.html)
Peace, the middle way, is the only way forward that makes sense.
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At this moment in time. whether this new middle way approach will work or not remains to be seen. But, at least it is a fresh new approach. Anyone else have anymore ideas? Even if the Dalai Lama does not respond, it may have set some of his followers thinking on the true nature of the Dharma.
I agree insofar as anew approach is needed and this videos by Tsem Rinpoche will send people thinking. I on the other hand think the middle way is the only way as I do not support being negative about the Dalai Lama for the simple reason that He is also respected by many. In that, Tsem Rinpoche has hit the perfect note. We must respect All.
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I knew that the first time I read about Tsem Rinpoche on here I knew he would and could be a big player in the lifting of this ban because by the looks of it, he has his priorities right and he looks at Buddhism the right way as he seeks the middle path like how Lord Buddha found when he gained enlightenment. This is the peaceful way and the right way to approach things when you have a disagreement in Buddhism and in life too. You just say why you do not like or agree with something and don't practice that way. There is no need to insult, hurt or cause trouble to the other side especially to a lama or other Rinpoche. That is not a Buddhist way. Things should be civilized and peaceful like how Martin Luthor King Jr had his silent protest that was civilized and mature. That is the right way. Peaceful. Tsem Rinpoche has the right way and we should all listen and help him to help them in Tibet and stop this harm total madness of no tolerance of different belief which is in our rights by the way. So let it stop soon. Lift the ban!
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It is really wnderful to know that H.E Tsem Tulku Rinpoche has chosen to neither side with Pro Dalai Lama people or Pro Dorje Shugden people.
It is good to know that H.E Tsem Tulku Rinpoche has chosen to take the middle way and to respect both the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden.
It sure isn't easy to choose the middle way as there aren't that many people who want to support both the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden at the same time other than his students and followers.
H.E Tsem Tulku Rinpoche is a very creative Lama with creative ideas and looking at the link attached, the idea of getting his students to hold plague cards and to pose for photos to peacefully appeal to the Dalai Lama for a peaceful situation.
A peaceful appeal like this is indeed a better way to appeal to the Dalai Lama rather than violently protests.
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It sure isn't easy to choose the middle way as there aren't that many people who want to support both the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden at the same time other than his students and followers. - Shugdener
Yes, Shugdener, it is not easy. It is easier to take sides and shout profanity at the other side. Taking the middle way requires patience and an understanding of the real dharma. It also draws out the ugly side of people who like to take sides, so you get both sides calling you names. Tsem Rinpoche walks the talk and is the real McCoy, drawing gunfire to him and trying to resolve the issue and get the ban lifted. Lucky are his followers and students.
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Tsem Rinpoche's pleas are very humble and and respectful to HH Dalai Lama. He is making a point to request HH Dalai Lama to release the Dorje Shugden ban, but He is not rude to HH Dalai Lama at all. At this point in time, it is important to focus on the issue (i.e. the Ban). I believe there are many people including Tibetans who would make decisions based on logic sense. I believe there are many Tibetans who would not want to discriminate nor segregate people just because of one spiritual difference.
I pray there are more Lamas around the world would be more verbal about this ban, and yet respectful to everyone.
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I applaud the approach Tsem Rinpoche took on the Dorje Shugden ban. Many great leaders of the world like Gandhi, Mandela, has shown examples that is it possible to not use violent methods and focus on the cause instead of the person.
I like Dorje Shugden and I also has the deepest respect for HH The Dalai Lama. How is that possible? Is that hypocrisy? For goodness sake, we do it all the time. Parents do it to their children all the time and vice versa. We do it to our friends too. Have you not ever told a friend I don't condone what you do but still remain friends with them. Do we agreed with everything our friends, parent, children do? Do we go against them sometimes? But we don't cut them off because of it.
It is totally possible to pick a side, to stand up and fight for a cause and not become enemies and still be respectful of each other.
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I love Dorje Shugden and I love the Dalai Lama.
A Buddhist should love every single being without an exception, including evil beings such as the evil dalie. Therefore, nothing new here.
Why force me to choose between my mother and my father?
If the crazed father obsessively attacks the mother, there is no need to choose between them; it's enough to stop the crazed father, and intern him in a psychiatric hospital.
If one's beloved, but crazed pit bull dog attacks a child, there is no need to choose between them; it's enough to stop the beloved, but crazed pit bull dog, and put him in a safe cage.
In the same way, if one's beloved, but crazed evil dalie criminally harms other people, there is no need to choose between him and the victims; it's enough to stop and bind the dangerous criminal -- which is not possible without recognizing him as such.
Therefore, the proposed question is a false one, merely aimed at justifying one's own unwillingness to counter the aggressor, while hypocritically (and newly) claiming to support the victim.
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May I respectfully request you [the evil dalie] to send your representatives to solve the Dorje Shugden ban issue.
Sometimes terrorists or ordinary criminals taking hostages are requested and allowed to send their minions to negotiate the release of such hostages, which is done in order to protect the safety of the hostages. But afterwards the terrorist or ordinary criminal will be trialed and imprisoned according to the law.
Except for such an extreme situation, and for the sake of the victims' safety, allowing a terrorist or an ordinary criminal to “send representatives” in order to “solve the issue” is a most ridiculous proposal, which would only pass through the mind of some covert accomplice of such a terrorist or ordinary criminal.
Therefore, the mere idea of allowing, let alone “respectfully requesting”, the evil dalie to send his minions in order to negotiate whatever, while he is at large openly perpetrating his obnoxious crimes against humanity, beyond merely ridiculous, is a show of undisguised accomplicity with the criminal together with his crimes.
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Dorje Shugden practice is just a small part of me.
What a repulsive statement. No Dharma practice given by one's guru should ever be seen as “small” and therefore negligible.
The very name “Kadampa” refers to those who do not discard even a single letter of the Conqueror’s word, and recognize it all as instruction.
My main practice is the Buddha's teachings.
Which shows that, according to the speaker, the practice of Dorje Shugden is not Buddha's teachings. This is precisely the view held by the evil vow-breaker dalie lame.
Both quotations above were obviously uttered with the political intent of appeasing and showing subservience to the evil vow-breaker dalie, at the expense of the respect owed one's own pure gurus and their teachings, and therefore to the holy Dharma of the Buddha.
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Have you not ever told a friend I don't condone what you do but still remain friends with them.
If you do not denounce your criminal “friend” so that he can be stopped, you are not his friend, but his accomplice.
Besides, the true friend will denounce the criminal so that he can be stopped, and thus commits less crimes.
This means that, while posing as a “friend” of your acomplice, the evil dalie, you are actually his enemy. A true friend of the evil dalie will denounce him, so that he can be stopped.
But we don't cut them off because of it.
There is no need to cut the evil dalie off, or anyone else to that effect. It's enough to denounce him and his crimes, so that he can be stopped, and so that you do not become his accomplice.
Accomplices like you are never true friends.
It is totally possible to pick a side, to stand up and fight for a cause and not become enemies and still be respectful of each other.
People like you are the worst enemies of the evil dalie, because they never denounce him, and therefore create the conditions so that he keeps perpetrating his crimes, as opposed to the true friends denouncing his criminal behavior.
Actually, you are not a friend even of your own self, because, as an accomplice, you become equally responsible for his crimes. And, since you are not even your own friend, how could you claim the be a friend of your accomplice, the evil dalie?
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Matibadhra,
Tsem Tulku made a 4-hour video on this subject. Are you going to comment line by line as you have done here, for the entire 4-hour video? Or are you just gonna cherry-pick parts that you can pounce on and twist to say something you think is clever and gives you that holier-than-thou impression?
I am not even going to debate you on the substance of what you wrote as there isn't much except conjecture. I have noticed this about you over time - that you criticise anything that is not perfectly in line with your own opinion. If you can have opinions, why not anyone else? What makes your opinion right and everyone else wrong? What is truly repulsive is our own self-serving ego and we should all work on that first and foremost instead of critiquing the works of others, especially when that critique is full of personal repugnance towards another.
This site's objective is to fight a religious ban borne out of intolerance. Intolerance has no place here especially when it is directed at a monk who has done no harm to you or anyone.
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I have listened to the 4 hour talk by Tsem Rinpoche and I must say it is the most comprehensive talk from all angles. I am indeed amazed that anybody who calls himself/herself a practitioner can actually criticize Rinpoche without first putting himself in his shoes and understanding his predicament. In order for one to be compassionate, empathy is a very important quality one must have to do this.
Some here on this thread keeps 'cherry-picking' as Vajratruth calls it simply because they don't like his stance on the Dalai Lama. This is pretty obvious and its so easy to call this lama names simply because our eyes are colored with hate. This does not reflect very well on Shugden practitioners as a whole. This is just too bad.
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I strongly support middle way, no violent and harsh words. We as a Buddhist practitioners and we should act like one. I rejoice for a Lama like Tsem Rinpoche who fight for the ban in a peaceful way. We are here not to physically fight for the right, we will not want to use any harsh word to put anyone down but what we want is a peaceful way just like Tsem Rinpoche requested, a peaceful dialogue to resolve the issue. We have our Guru to follow and devoted to, so to the Dalai Lama which he as many students following him. I personally feel we wouldn’t want to say anything bad to anyone’s Guru as we should encourage respect and harmony. The bottom line of the issue here is the ban of Shugden practice and we straight to the point and deal with peace.
I really hope to see more Shugden Lama combine energy and HH Dalai Lama accept the audience to meet up to resolve the ban for the benefit of many many people. This ban has causes so many suffering and it need to stop.
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Tsem Tulku made a 4-hour video on this subject. Are you going to comment line by line as you have done here, for the entire 4-hour video? Or are you just gonna cherry-pick parts that you can pounce on
If I comment line by line the 4 hours you complain; if I cherry pick parts that I can pounce on you complain. Is there an alternative so that you don't complain?
and twist
Just like anyone else, I may unintentionally misunderstand, and therefore misrepresent a statement. In this case, I would be happy to be corrected.
However, this is not what you said. You said that I have “twisted” a statement. “To twist” means to contort, to distort, to falsify, and to do so intentionally, in bad faith. This is a pretty serious accusation.
Since you chose to offer this serious accusation, you might care to prove it, or else to recognize that you have perpetrated an act of verbal violence, a slander, which is both a lie and a case of harsh speech.
to say something you think is clever
Thank you for your attempt to read what I “think”; however you did not succeed. Indeed, what I think is that what I had to say is sad, extremely sad - that Buddhist practitioners see their Dharma practice as a “small part” of themselves.
and gives you that holier-than-thou impression?
As you say, this is just your own impression, your subjective belief, your mental representation. Therefore you might ponder what makes you project such subjective impression of yours on others, failing to realize that they exist only in your own mind.
I am not even going to debate you on the substance of what you wrote .
If so, you should not have offered such a serious accusation, because an accusation without proof is known as a slander, a verbal violence, which is both a lie and a case of harsh speech.
as there isn't much except conjecture
What I said is that it is “repulsive” to see Buddhist practitioners stating that their Dharma practice is just a “small part” of themselves. Please show were is the “conjecture”.
But it is possible that your “conjecture” theory just aims at evading your responsibility to prove your accusation, that I “twisted” a statement. If so, your trick shows lack of honesty in debate.
I have noticed this about you over time -
As a Buddhist, I try to notice things about myself, rather than about others. Still, I'm always happy when others, in a non-Buddhist way, notice things about myself.
that you criticise anything that is not perfectly in line with your own opinion.
If I understand you well, I should therefore criticize only what is perfectly in line with my opinion, is it?
If you can have opinions, why not anyone else?
I believe that everyone is entitled to have and express their opinions without being slandered, without being accused without proof of “twisting” a statement, which is precisely what you have done.
What makes your opinion right and everyone else wrong?
An opinion is right or wrong if it is proved. I offered my proof. If you think that my proof is not good, then it's your turn to disprove me. But you explicitly refused “to debate the substance of what I wrote”, you chose to evade, using the false pretext that what I wrote was only “conjecture”.
If it was “conjecture”, you had to prove it; just to state is not enough.
In other words, your actual belief is that I am wrong without the need of being proved wrong, and that you are right without the of proving yourself right. This is not an honest attitude.
What is truly repulsive is our own self-serving ego and we should all work on that first and foremost instead of critiquing the works of others,
I didn't say anything about the “works” of anyone. I criticized a statement, and the idea behind this statement, that the Dharma practice received from one's guru is just “a small part” of oneself. If you agree with this statement, and want to prove it correct, do it by all means, but do not twist my own statement, suggesting that I am criticizing the “works” of others.
especially when that critique is full of personal repugnance towards another.
My repugnance was very clearly stated to be against a statement. If you care to check, I said “What a repulsive statement”. It's only your false projection which sees “personal repugnance towards another”.
This site's objective is to fight a religious ban borne out of intolerance. Intolerance has no place here
Then why do you engage in intolerance yourself, slandering others, and trying to impose your own views without any proof?
especially when it is directed at a monk who has done no harm to you or anyone.
Then according to you a statement is “a monk”. I think your projections went way too far.
May I add that this response comes more than two months after your post, not because of neglect or lack of consideration from my side, but because I've been banned from this posting to this website since November 22, 2015 and until January 21, 2016.
When we Shugdenpas talk about “bans” and “intolerance”, we should beware, I believe, not to fall into the same patterns we are supposed to fight.
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I am indeed amazed that anybody who calls himself/herself a practitioner can actually criticize Rinpoche
You might care to specify who has engaged in such a personal criticism. Just in case, like Vajratruth, you think it is me, you might review my post dated November 21, 2015, 06:50:24 PM, where I clearly criticize a statement, not anyone personally.
And this, by the way, is what makes of me a Dharma practitioner, a follower of Buddha Shakyamuni, the teacher who said that we should not accept anything just because the teacher said, but rather, because it has bee seen by oneself to be skilful, beneficial, and so forth.
If you see by yourself that it is skillful and beneficial to see a Dharma practice just a “small part” of yourself, congratulations; you are entitled to hold this view, as others are entitled to hold the opposite view, and still there is no personal criticism to be seen anywhere apart from your own imagination.
without first putting himself in his shoes and understanding his predicament.
This is an extraneous topic here. I talk about a statement; you talk about a person. I'm not interested on talking about anyone, and if you are not interested on talking about the mentioned statement; we have reached a stalemate, and it makes no sense to pursue this conversation.
Some here on this thread keeps 'cherry-picking' as Vajratruth calls it simply because they don't like his stance on the Dalai Lama.
Just in case you wanted to refer to me, you have wildly missed the target. I don't know and I don't care about anyone's “stance” on the evil dalie or anyone else. The only stance I care about is my own stance about Dharma, and that Dharma does not become for any reason a “small part of me”.
This is pretty obvious and its so easy to call this lama names
Has someone here called any lama “names”? Or are you, just like Vajratruth, engaging in slandering as well?
simply because our eyes are colored with hate.
You are seeing too much “hate“. Maybe such “hate” is only in your own eyes.
This does not reflect very well on Shugden practitioners as a whole. This is just too bad.
What does not reflect well on Shugden practitioners is to support statements that Dharma “is just a small part of me”, and then resort to personal attacks against whoever criticizes this statement.
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I personally think that as Buddhist practitioners, we should always take the middle way as we do not need to create harm in order to gain. As mentioned, Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandala managed to lead their country, righting the wrongs that they had stood for. H.E. Tsem Tulku Rinpoche clearly respect the Dalai Lama very much and yet at the same time wish to point out the injustice of religious freedom violation to help those practitioners that had suffered much without a voice. I think that the Anti-Shugdens should take a leaf out of his example instead of creating so much negative karma by being abusive and threatening. Kudos to Tsem Rinpoche for showing us the middle way to create awareness to the issue of asking the Dalai Lama for lifting the ban on Dorje Shugden.
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I applaud the great effort by H.E. Tsem Rinpoche. H.E.Tsem has very strong samaya with his root Guru, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and he did not stop Dorje Shugden practice yet he highly respects the Dalai Lama and now using peaceful approach to appeal to the Dalai Lama to lift the ban. Buddhism is a peaceful religion, but because of the ban it has created havoc and sufferings for practitioners. If the Dalai Lama can give an exception to Trijang Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden, why not give exception to all Shugdenpas?
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Much appreciation and thanks to Tsem Rinpoche for showing us the many ways to appeal to His Holiness the Dalai Lama to end the ban on Shugden practice. The manner and tone of all the appeals contained in the two links are peaceful and polite. Certainly did reinforced in me that Buddhism promotes harmony and the respect Tsem Rinpoche have for the Dalai Lama is truly remarkable.
It is a good lesson learned for me that harsh words and violence would not resolve any issues. I pray that Tsem Rinpoche and many other Lamas to live long and continue to guide us. May the ban be lifted soon which will end the sufferings of many Shugden believers.