dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: thaimonk on January 04, 2015, 02:04:42 AM
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How come the Dalai Lama is only worried about everyone's samaya with him? How come Dalai Lama is not worried about the samayas between student of other lamas with their own teachers. Other teachers do not matter? If the students took teachings from other teachers that practice Shugden, why does Dalai Lama criticize Shugden and or these other lamas. Does that not make their students confused or lose faith? Does that not damage the samaya for these students to their lamas? Aren't the samayas to these other lamas by their students just as important? Why does samaya with Dalai lama be absolute, exclusive and the most important overriding all other lamas? Dalai Lama is not fair when he is only concerned with samaya to himself. Why is the samaya with him the most important? No other lamas are important? There was no lamas before him and there are going to be no lamas after him? How come his opinions about Shugden override every other lamas views of the past four hundred years?
Why is it ok for him to disparage other lamas and their practices and spoil the samayas between other lamas and their students? But it's not ok for others to criticize Dalai Lama? Is it because he is a leader? Which leader both spiritual and secular in the world is beyond mistakes and criticisms? How come the Dalai Lama can never be wrong. How come he can spoil the teachings, practices and beliefs of other lamas and it's ok and no karmic repercussions? But with him, there is karma if you go against Dalai Lama's beliefs? How come the Dalai Lama is smarter than every other teacher and only his investigations into Shugden are correct?
How come the Dalai Lama's views on Shugden is the final absolute opinion? Is he smarter than every other lama in Tibet?
So if others practice Shugden, they break samaya with Dalai Lama right? But if Dalai Lama criticize Shugden, doesn't he break samaya with his teacher of 30 years Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche who practiced Shugden? So if Dalai Lama breaks samaya, where does he go and what happens to him? Doesn't that create negative karma?
Why is the Dalai Lama more important than every other lama? Because he is the most famous? Does fame make someone automatically correct in every decision? Fame overrides everything? Why does the feelings of Dalai Lama matter more than every other lama?
Why doesn't the other many hundreds of high lamas' faith, investigation, trust, practice of Shugden for the last four hundred years matter too? Why is the Dalai Lama making himself be the only one correct? This would never be accepted in any other country's secular or religious leader.
The Dalai Lama is the only one who knows everything? Why?
(Photo: Panchen Lama and his close friend Gangchen Rinpoche. Both are great practitioners of Shugden)
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This is such a good question to those people follow Dalai Lama's instruction and abandon their practice given by guru. I think those people must be struggling when they first asked to give up the practice. My point of view is this fall back to guru devotion. I believe the student will not give up the practice if the student have the strong faith in guru, clean samaya always the priority to the student.
So much confusion created by Dalai Lama on his own samaya with guru. It looks like Dalai Lama is the most supreme that he can override his guru and all the great masters in Tibet. Guru devotion is the exceptional to Dalai Lama but applicable to his students. However also exceptional to the rest that asked to give up the Shugden practice given by guru. No guru devotion, no lineage blessings, no attainment gain by the student. We really need to contemplate this as a real practitioner to make the wise choice instead of simply follow Dalai Lama's instruction.
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This is really a good question to contemplate for those who follow HH Dalai Lama and those who confused or in dilemma when come to respect HHDL and want to be loyal to their guru and lineage at the same time.
Samaya with one's guru will be equally importance or if really want to measure in quantity, the "value" would be no difference, whether your guru is with big name or not.
Validity of an investigation, opinion and view on certain practice such as Dorje Shugden is "legal", or whether He is an enlightened being or not, is not depend on who is the person speaking, but should be how strong the evidence and proof the person has presented, to make you believe in.
The issue of Dorje Shugden - including He is a spirit or enlightened being/His practice will threaten HHDL's life and the stability of Tibet and etc - not only brought out the issue of religious freedom, but for me, it is a test for a practitioner's wisdom on following blindly or with wisdom well...Did we criticize one's practice/a guru by blindly follow an instruction by a person on high throne & with big name, without enough investigation from our side?
Did we listen or read enough to understand both sides' stories before making a stand or worst verbally or physically attack another person's belief? Or we just follow the mainstream opinion to be safe? Did we want to be safe, not being left out or avoid being attacked by the majority, so just follow whatever majority are doing - even the action is violence, violating basic human rights, harmful and hurting another group of people?
This question apply to practitioners and anyone. And it applies not only on the issue of Dorje Shugden, but can be extended to issue of everyday life - including political, economic and etc.
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You have asked many great questions thaimonk, many people these days blindly follow mainstream news and not bother to go through investigation and research of their own, this allows the media to bend the truth behind many facts. Especially with the CTA power over all of Tibet's publications and media, many have been led to believe lies. Still though a practicing buddhist should understand that the level of Guru devotion is very important. Like Joo Won said, irregardless your Guru has a big name or not, you still should be following what your guru has taught you. In this case if HHDL has preached that guru devotion and samaya with your guru is important how come he does not follow what his teachers have taught him.
How can many great Lamas who practice Dorje Shugden after many lifes times of reincarnation come back to continue practicing Dorje Shugden be bad? How can anti-shugden practitioners say Dorje Shugden practitioners are evil when many DS practitioners have lost their lives to anti-ds practitioners. This is madness!
I really like what Joo Won has said:
"Samaya with one's guru will be equally importance or if really want to measure in quantity, the "value" would be no difference, whether your guru is with big name or not."
We do not force other religions to not practice their beliefs, what gives the right for HHDL to ban Dorje Shugden practitioners from practicing their beliefs?
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These are great questions that will certainly make many people ponder over the decision of the Dalai Lama enforcing the ban on the Shugden practice. When one has contemplated and examined these questions deeply, the answer is obviously wrong for the Dalai Lama to insist on the ban and caused many people to break their samaya with their lamas. To begin with the Dalai Lama has broken samaya with his guru, Khabje Trijang Rinpoche when he discontinues the practice. We certainly know the retribution of such action upon himself and on the mass of people whom he had forcefully made to break samaya with their lamas. Is the Dalai Lama not afraid of churning of the Wheel of Sharp Weapon?
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It is important that someone point out that the Dalai Lama is not above criticism. He is not this infallible holy spiritual leader that the media and press would have us think. It's not like everyone is utterly impressed by him enforcing the Shugden ban that we think it's wrong to point out his faults. Dalai Lama followers don't like it when we need to point it out so to set everyone in the comtemplative mode, but anyway they need to stay out of Shugden Buddhism.
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The questions asked here revolves around the breaking of samaya with one's Guru. It would appear that the Dalai Lama is telling all students that they can break their samaya with their own Gurus, but they cannot break their samaya with him. Why is he only concerned about people breaking their samaya with him?
At the heart of practice, especially Vajrayana practice, is Guru Devotion. Every student has to keep their samaya with their root guru clean. This is the foundation of practice. Without this, no practitioner will gain any realization or move forward in his practice. When a practice like Shugden, which has a 400-year lineage, has been given to a student, he practices it with faith because the practice has helped past lamas of the lineage to gain realizations and has helped them attain enlightenment.Hence he practices it with equal faith and confidence, and in the same manner, as he knows this has been done repeatedly by past lineage holders of the practice . He will remember to show his loyalty and devotion to his guru for teaching him the dharma and guiding him carefully, and for his countless advice and instructions. He will repay his kindness with devotion. He will properly rely on his Guru, as the one to take them all the way to Enlightenment.
How then can he turn against his guru and break samaya with him(which will plunge him into Avici for many lifetimes) and hurt his guru's and other students' relationship with him. Hurt the lineage, which is so important for the transmission of the teachings. How can he do all that just because the Dalai Lama demands it. Just because one is more famous than the other?. What is fame but a worldly dharma , which we have all been reminded against time and again, as it can only lead us to lower realms?
Finally, what about the Dalai Lama's samaya with his guru of 30 years, the dire consequences of broken samaya being surely the same for every practitioner?
Wthe kindness of his own lama
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I have read a book that said the guru and student relationship is spiritual relationship. Guru help the student to achieve enlightenment and the student help the guru to do dharma work to benefit ourself and others. This is such an important relationship that we cannot afford to break.
To ban the practice of Dorje Shugden is similar to breaking the samaya of a person with his Guru. Without the kindness of our Guru to guide and train us in generating the good qualities, we will not be able to achieve enlightenment. We cannot just leave our guru because Dalai Lama ban it and we switch to follow Dalai Lama?Dalai Lama is not my guru. I think is wrong and bad to ban someone's practice and at the same time caused samaya with guru broken.
Sharing an article by Dalai Lama on "Questioning the Advice of the Guru" by Dalai Lama.
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Article on questioning the advice of Guru by Dalai Lama
http://info-buddhism.com/Questioning_Advice_of_Guru_Dalai_Lama.html (http://info-buddhism.com/Questioning_Advice_of_Guru_Dalai_Lama.html)
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Good Samaya is a recurring theme especially like the stories of Naropa and Milarepa.
Without good samaya, these great masters would not be able to reach such heights in their spiritual endeavours. What more is there to say? Even chenrezig and manjushri carry their gurus on their crowns, despite them having reached the pinnacle of our existence.
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having good samaya with the Guru is important for our spirituality, in my opinion, by having good samaya with our Guru will propel us forward in our practice. As a student, we only take advice and also follow wholeheartedly one Guru, what more if we have taken refuge with our Guru, this is a very special Dharmic connection with our Guru, and we must not be swayed by detractors if what we practice does not conform to their believes. Not even another Lama, especially Dalai Lama.
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Thanks Thai Monk for this write-up. It trigger lots of deeper thought on this issues.
It is very true when come to think of the samaya matter.
Dalai Lama is meant to be more compassionate, tolerance and wisdom. The issues of ban that imposed on Dorje Shugden is not only the reasons behind the ban are illogical and harmful, now I have come to understand more whereby this ban have cause deeper harm and is influencing the core value of Vajrayana - The Teacher Student relationship. It causes confusion to the Buddhist's world.
Who shall we followed? Our Root Guru or Dalai Lama? Just because H.H is the "face" of Buddhist it doesn't mean that H.H have the ultimate power to determine what Buddha the person have to follow, or, which protector is right to the person.
Further, on the ban of Dorje Shugden. Dalai Lama have not even given a single chances for the Ds's practitioner to have conversation with him. When he promote compassion, peace and tolerance, the value he is trying to bring have contradict on the action, where he impose the ban so strongly.
It causes chaos and confusion to the Buddhist's world. It causes people who are not Buddhist look down upon us whereby we are not unite and our actions are violence. People who pro Dalai Lama, is attacking not only the practitioner but also the Sangha members. This conflict and ban, have causes other lineage to look upon this crisis as attacking the 3 Jewels. How serious is this matter!
I hopes this illogical and ridiculous ban end soon. And the peace that Buddhist's promote for long can be restore fast.
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As it says in the 50 Stanzas on Guru Devotion, there are great negative consequences in breaking one's samaya with the Guru and especially for those who start to disparage their own Guru. Also from the 50 Stanzas, having evaluating the suitability of the Lama before entering into a Guru-disciple relationship, regarding this Guru as the root Guru, a promise has been made until enlightenment that the Guru-disciple relation be maintained purely and with integrity.
Again, this means that one MUST keep the promise of the practices given by the Guru.
Hence, if one's root Guru is not the Dalai Lama; and when the Dalai Lama criticize and even ban the practice given by your Guru, one needs to ask the Dalai Lama for the reasons that is supported by the scriptures and logic. If he fail to do that, then, we can politely ask him to be proof his claim again and again because it affects many others practitioners and is of utmost importance.
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When two enlighten beings manifested “conflict” which side of view do we choose?
Many had put forth excellent valid reasons on this thread, In line with the moto of DS.com: “Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama – Spreading Dharma Together”
There must be a way to treads the middle way without being drawn into unnecessary conflict by investigating the instructions base on valid logic and reasoning expound by the Buddha himself.
I would like to draw attention to Angelica’s shared link on His Holiness teaching.
In His Holiness teaching on taking on a guru’s instructions and if one is new and tread on the common path, a student should investigate and politely question if one is confuse or unclear of the instruction. This is the process of gaining faith from the result of the instruction and knowledge in the Dharma from questioning.
Only from unmistaken faith, a healthy guru-disciple relationship can be established.
In Foundation of All Good Qualities,
"When, trained in the common path, I am a suitable vessel,
I request inspiration to enter with ease the great gateway of the fortunate ones, the Vajrayana, the supreme of all vehicles.
The basis of achieving the two powerful attainments is the pure vows and commitments that I have pledged. Having found true understanding of this, I request inspiration to keep them even at the cost of my life."
When one had the fortunate qualities to enter tantra based on the training received in the common path, then the student’s devotion toward his spiritual guide will be unmovable like a mountain regardless of any external factor.
In the case of conflicting view HH manifested now was to urge us to investigate into the Dharma and not taking on side based on our perceptions and convenient. When we had make our choice, we should follow it through to completion at the same time be mindful of our actions and speech and show’s respect to opposition by not disparaging their teachers or teaching.
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Why does samaya with Dalai Lama override all other lamas?
There is no such thing as “samaya” with the evil dalai. The stooge lacks any lineage, and without lineage there is no samaya.
Still, because of theocratic subservience, some Tibetans and Westerners feel bound to the evil dalai, in the same way that mafiosi feel bound to their capo, or that some Muslims feel bound to terrorists such as bin Laden, al-Zarqawi, or al-Baghdadi, but such subservience to evil is not what we Buddhists call “samaya”.
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Many HH Dalai Lama supporters only cares about their own samaya with HH Dalai Lama, but they never put themselves in our shoes and think about our samaya with our guru.
So, it is OK for me to break my samaya just because your guru is more famous? Why are you so selfish? If your guru can criticise my guru, does it give the rights for my guru to criticise your guru too? If my guru criticise your guru's practice and ask you to break your samaya, would you do the same?
Let's just have respect for each other and do our practice well. That's the best for all of us.
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I don't actually think that samaya with HH the Dalai Lama should override all other Lamas. We don't all receive teachings from HH, and what really matters is the guru or Lamas ( sometimes it can be more than one ) who has kindly given us the Dharma and practises, so if we only hold our samaya with HH, then what happens to the teachers who have been spending time talking to us, giving us advice, and have been very caring for us???
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It is good that Thaimonk pointed out all this for us to contemplate. I find it completely wrong for Dalai Lama to ban this practice and causing so many people to break their samaya with their Guru. I wonder what retribution Dalai Lama will face or is he an exception as he he has broken his samaya with his Guru, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.
Dalai Lama is so persistent and concern that we should not break samaya with him but it’s alright if we break our samaya with our own Guru. Why is he different or special than the rest of the highly attained Lamas? No one has the right to dictate our faith and practice. I think it is very wrong and very bad karma to prevent and ban someone’s practice and faith and also it is against human rights as everyone has the rights to religious freedom.
I am glad Dalai Lama is not my Guru as he has caused so much confusion and suffering for many. I will follow my Guru and hold tight to my samaya with my Guru.
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I am glad Dalai Lama is not my Guru
Not yours, not anyone's. The evil puppet is no Buddhist guru, just a CIA-abetted capo mafioso.
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"Many HH Dalai Lama supporters only cares about their own samaya with HH Dalai Lama, but they never put themselves in our shoes and think about our samaya with our guru."
In answering all the questions posted by Thaimonk the above statement by Kris stands out for me the most.
As such I am very joyful that I have never been to a teaching by the Dalai Lama and as such whatever He publicly announces do not bother me as I am one of the lucky ones who have only ONE Guru and he is not the Dalai Lama.
Status and fame has no meaning unless the famous and highly regarded make peace on earth. Not confusion and segregation.