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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Heartspoon on May 31, 2008, 12:42:25 PM

Title: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: Heartspoon on May 31, 2008, 12:42:25 PM
Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang


At the time when Buddha was living his life as Prince Siddhartha in the palace of his father he made a request to tour his kingdom. On three occasions the king arranged visits for his son to various destinations in Magada, carefully preparing in advance every detail to make sure that his son would not encounter any unpleasant sights. Nevertheless on these three occasions Prince Siddhartha was confronted with sickness, old age and death. He asked his friend and charioteer, Channa, about the meaning of these unexpected sights and each time Channa replied with the appropriate answer, leading the Prince to a complete realisation of suffering. Filled with renunciation, the Prince secretly fled from the palace, leaving all his attendants and friends behind, with the exception of Channa and his horse who were the only ones allowed to accompany him.

After Buddha's enlightenment Channa became his disciple and attained the state of an Arhat. This closest friend of Buddha Shakyamuni continued to serve the Buddha's teachings in innumerable incarnations, repeatedly appearing as a key master for the pure continuation of the teachings.

In India he emanated as the Arhat Madhughosha, as Master Vimala Shri, as Chandrakirti, as Shanta Rakshita, who founded Buddhism in Tibet and as Master Atisha, whose appearance in the year 1100 caused the faultless teachings of the Buddha to again be installed in Tibet.

Channa appeared in Tibet as the Kadampa Master Langri Tangpa and as the Sakya Master Jampel Dorje. As Je Tsongkhapa, known as the "Jewel Ornament of the Sages of the Land of Snow", he was the founder of the Gelug tradition. The Eighth Karmapa Mikyö Dorje is known as one of his incarnations as well as the Nyingma Master Sur Chöying Rangdröl. As the sixty-fourth successor of Je Tsongkhapa's throne he was known as Tri Jangchub Choephel, whose name in short form is Trijang and has remained with the line of the Trijang Rinpoches until this day.

At the turn of this century he took birth as Tri Losang Yeshe, known as Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, the junior tutor of His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama. As it is well known, His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang was the foremost Tibetan Buddhist master of our time. Passing away in 1981 at the age of eighty-one, he followed in age as well as activities the exact example of the Enlightened Buddha. With his extraordinary method and capacity of teaching he fulfilled the purpose of countless beings through the teachings of the Buddha, particularly the tradition of Je Tsongkhapa. All the great masters and followers of this tradition were brought up under his compassionate spiritual guidance.
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: Heartspoon on May 31, 2008, 12:43:33 PM
"The demonstration of the dharma by the Buddhas"

Conceptualization functions within projecting an aspect of itself in the form of something out there, taking what is not that to be that. Since it is, in and of itself, ignorance it is impossible that all obscuration of what is really there has been destroyed. hence through the power of the perfection of wisdom knowledge of the Lord Buddhas who are ever in equipoise there comes forth for the fortunates, in accord with their belief, the appearance of an unalloyed demonstration that is the particular state (pratyaya) of their own knowledge. Thus we posit the Lord's demonstration (of doctrine) in line with their particular state of mind.

Light for the Abhisamayalamkara

And:

Therefore the demonstration, in its nature the trainee's knowledge appearing as words, is, yet, connected with the person who hears it. Just as, having taken it to be the demonstration (of Dharma) by the Buddhas, it "should be worshipped", "because it has come forth from" under the governance of "the perfection of wisdom" knowledge, similarly, because the "demonstration by the dharma-preachers" of this present time has come down through the power of the tradition reaching back to the Lord, it "should be worshipped" because it has come forth" from "under the governance of the "perfection of wisdom" knowledge.

Light for the Abhisamayalamkara

And

Sacred word. You have to posit appearances as the Teacher, and appearances as the two Form Bodies and their demonstration of, for example, the twelve divisions of the sacred word as the mere appearance to others to be trained. So too with the sacred word of the Buddha in its entirety: dependent on the Buddha's illusion-like knowledge acting as an empowering condition, and the mind-stream of trainees as causal condition, it is that trainee's consciousness itself appearing in the form of those speeches, names, and syllables. Hence you have to connect it with the mind-stream of the listener, and not connect it with the mind-stream of the Buddhas, or else Buddhas will have interior consciousness, ignorance settling on external sounds, and they will not have eliminated all obscuration.

Golden Garland of Eloquence


And you posit those listeners' representations, furthermore, as created by a Buddha's power because they have originated from it, just as you say of what is in fact a representation - mantras and so forth found in a dream through the power of a god - that they were divinely created, even though they are your own consciousness.

Golden Garland of Eloquence

Appearances as words in prose and meter are the collection of the listener's representations operating in tandem with asserted meanings.

The Mahayana Compendium Exegesis

Similarly Vinita-deva's Subcommentary on Vasubandhu's Twenty Verses and the Commentary on Dharmakirti's Proof of Other Minds also say that scripture is just consciousness appearing as verse and prose, or in the form of an essay, or in the form of speech, names and syllables.

Golden Garland of Eloquence
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: Heartspoon on May 31, 2008, 12:44:55 PM
The great holy beings, such as Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang, appear in the form of the "dharma-preachers" of this present time. Their demonstration of the Dharma has come down through the power of the tradition reaching back to the Lord.

The "demonstration by the dharma-preachers" of this present time having come down through the power of the tradition reaching back to the Lord, it "should be worshipped" because it has come forth" from "under the governance of the "perfection of wisdom" knowledge.
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: Heartspoon on May 31, 2008, 12:47:19 PM
Perfection of Wisdom sutras were amongst the first Buddhist texts translated in Tibet. Before emanating as Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang, Channa emanated as Atisha.

"Atisha and Rinchen Zangpo collaborated on the translation of Serlingpa's Illumination and together revised the extant translations of the sutras, Arya's Commentary and the Light.
Atisha taught Drom Tönpa Sherap Jungnay the Perfection of Wisdom who in turn passed his knowledge to Drom Tongten and so on. Atisha also taught Khu Chenpo Lhatingpa, starting a tradition associated with his name and Chapa Dartön also studied with Atisha and began the Khams tradition."


Gareth Sparham
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: Heartspoon on May 31, 2008, 01:02:26 PM
Having said that such a great holy being as Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang appears in the form of a "dharma-preacher" someone objected in the following way:

HH the Great Thirteenth Dalai Lama wrote, "With regard to your reference to making endeavour in the practice of taking refuge, first of all you are propitiating Shugden as a protector. Since they received Lamrim teaching from you at the Drepung Monastic Religious Centre last year and so made a connection with you, propitiation of Shugden among students there has greatly increased. The Great Nechung Choegyal who from the very beginning was commanded and entrusted to protect and guard this monastery, expressed his displeasure to the Drepung Lachi several times, saying that (due to propitiating Shugden) the degeneration of the Buddha dharma had been speeded up. This is the source of his displeasure. I feel that your seeking the support of a wrathful worldly spirit (to secure benefits in) this life specifically contradicts the precepts of taking refuge. Therefore, your statement, 'I want to say from the depths of my heart that it is only due to my being confused by ignorance and not that I have knowingly entered an unwholesome path and led others onto the same path.' is contradictory."

Phabongkha replies, "You have therefore instructed me to give you an answer. I have propitiated Shugden until now because my old mother told me that Shugden is the deity of my maternal lineage. I wish to inform you that henceforth, with intense regret (for what is past) and (with the intention of) restraining my faults (in the future), I will never again propitiate (Shugden) or make daily offerings and supporting prayers and that I will wholeheartedly keep this commitment in the core of my heart. Whatever mistakes I have committed until now, such as having become a cause for the mental displeasure of the Great Nechung Choegyal, contradicting the precepts of taking refuge and so forth, I request you, the supreme protector, who is especially compassionate to the lowly, to regard me with love and great compassion and patiently to forgive me. With great respect I here offer one silk scarf as a medium of request and five silver coins (to contribute to the) mandala offering."

"The Meaningful and Melodious Song of Brahma"

Objection:

Since it was the explicit wish and promise of this "dharma-preacher" NOT to practice Shugden anymore, shouldn't Trijang Rinpoche's students take heed and follow suit?

Unless you came to to the determination that Trijang's "demonstration" was uttered by a dharma-preacher while his Guru's "demonstration" was not.

I answered in the following way:

"You have therefore instructed me to give you an answer"

For which reason does Phabongkha Rinpoche write ? Because he was instructed to.
By whom was he instructed ? By the King.

"I have propitiated Shugden until now"

Statement of the fact that prompted the King's instruction to give an answer.

"because my old mother told me that Shugden is the deity of my maternal lineage"

Now, it becomes very interesting   

For which reason the King is displeased ?

"The Great Nechung Choegyal who from the very beginning was commanded and entrusted to protect and guard this monastery, expressed his displeasure to the Drepung Lachi several times, saying that (due to propitiating Shugden) the degeneration of the Buddha dharma had been speeded up. This is the source of his displeasure. I feel that your seeking the support of a wrathful worldly spirit (to secure benefits in) this life specifically contradicts the precepts of taking refuge."

Thus the King clearly states that "propitiating a worldly spirit to secure benefits in this life" is the source of the displeasure.

Does Phabongkha Rinpoche "propitiate a worldly spirit to secure benefits in this life" ? No
Did someone speak to Phabongkha Rinpoche in a way that was less than enlightened ? Yes, his mother
When did she speak in this way to Phabongkha Rinpoche ? When he was a child

"I wish to inform you that henceforth"

Remembering the way he connected to Dorje Shugden when he was a child, Phabongkha Rinpoche wishes to inform the King

"with intense regret (for what is past) and (with the intention of) restraining my faults (in the future)"

He regrets what happened when he was a child and has the intention not to repeat this fault in the future.
It means that from then on he makes the vow to propitiate Dorje Shugden forever as an enlightened being.

"I will never again propitiate (Shugden) or make daily offerings and supporting prayers"

He will never again propitiate Dorje Shugden without at the same time remembering that he is a supreme protector

"and that I will wholeheartedly keep this commitment in the core of my heart."

Promise to keep his commitment to always propitiate the Mighty Dorje Shugden

"Whatever mistakes I have committed until now"

Recognizing again what happened when he was a child

"Such as having become a cause for the mental displeasure of the Great Nechung Choegyal"

Why is it necessary to admit this fault now ? Because it caused displeasure to the Great Nechung Choegyal.
Why did it cause displeasure to the Great Nechung Choegyal ?
Because Dorje Dragden is the one who asked Mighty Dorje Shugden to protect the Geden teachings:

"Manjushri of Blissful Intelligence has insisted that I should principally protect the Geden Teachings, but since I have already sworn to Padmasambhava that I would protect all of Buddha's Teachings in general, there is no way that I can principally protect only the Geden Teachings. Now Panchen, you yourself, among holders of the Geden Teachings, these days, have the highest qualities of learning and realization. Not only that, you must arise as a wrathful protector of the Geden teachings to fulfill the commitment you have previously made !"

Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors

"contradicting the precepts of taking refuge"

Not understanding the enlightened qualities of Mighty Dorje Shugden when he was a child

"and so forth"

He confesses all the other consequences of what happened regarding his practice when he was a child

"I request you the supreme protector who is especially compassionate to the lowly to regard me with love and great compassion and patiently to forgive me"
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: emptymountains on May 31, 2008, 01:44:33 PM
Quote
He regrets what happened when he was a child and has the intention not to repeat this fault in the future.
It means that from then on he makes the vow to propitiate Dorje Shugden forever as an enlightened being.

Interesting to read between the lines like that...

What I got out of it is that propitiating Dorje Shugden when seen as a worldly protector (which Phabongkha learned from his mother) degenerates Buddhadharma, but propitiating Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Protector (which is how he will practice 'henceforth') does not degenerate the Buddhadharma. Is that right?

How did Phabongkha's Spiritual Guide, Kyabje Dagpo, regard Dorje Shugden--as a wordly protector or as an enlightened Protector?
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: Heartspoon on May 31, 2008, 01:51:20 PM
Kyabje Dagpo Rinpoche, Phabongkha Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, all supremely enlightened masters, had realized the nature of Mighty Dorje Shugden.

The key words of the answer given by Phabongkha Rinpoche are "because my old mother told me". Thus, we know that he refers to a form of practice that originates before his initiation in the Dorje Shugden practice by the enlightened masters  :D
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: emptymountains on May 31, 2008, 02:01:58 PM
Quote
Thus, we know that he refers to a form of practice that originates before his initiation in the Dorje Shugden practice by the enlightened masters.


It seems to always come back to these "two different ways of perceiving [Dorje Shugden]" (http://www.dharmaprotector.org/othertraditions.html (http://www.dharmaprotector.org/othertraditions.html)).

Isn't true that in the past, due to pressure from the Tibetan government, only the former view (i.e., Dorje Shugden as a wordly protector) was allowed to be promoted publically? Then, when there was more freedom (i.e., when the 13th Dalai Lama passed away), the latter view surfaced again?
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: Heartspoon on May 31, 2008, 02:17:17 PM
Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche explains very thoroughly how the dharma protectors are classified in his work "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors",
beginning on page 5.

"In regard to mundane protectors, some are actually transcendent wisdom supra-mundane protectors just exhibiting the form of a wordly deity."
Among them:

 Six Armed Swift Wisdom Mahakala, who is of a nature of Arya Avalokiteshvara
 Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, who is of a nature of Manjushri Yamantaka
 Tent Mahakala who is of a nature of Hevajra

Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: Dharmapal on May 31, 2008, 06:46:31 PM
Can someone kindly look at this page: http://www.fpmt.org/teachers/lineage_lamas.asp and let me know which of these Lamas practiced Dorje Shugden (I know some of them of course, but not all).

Also, were there any of them who were known to be against the practice of Dorje Shugden? (apart from the one at the top, of course, who is placed higher than all his own great lineage Lamas!  Sort of sums it up.)

Thank you.
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: steve on May 31, 2008, 06:52:33 PM
Nice one heart spoon that was really well read./
Got any opinions of your own?
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: theloneranger on May 31, 2008, 11:16:01 PM
i find it so funny when i look at the fpmt lineage lama's and realise that most of them are dorje shugden followers. this is a really good point to put the media that most of his dalai lama's lineage guru's are so called spirit worshippers! So whats left of a pure lineage.  in swiss documentary dalai lama clearlys states that his own spiritual guide and lineage masters were wrong regarding shugden practice.  but isn't he teaching rime now? so what need for any lineage lama's page? whats the point when dalai lama is promoting rime non-lineage dharma! 

Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: GreatWheel on June 01, 2008, 12:34:54 AM
Curious,is the current incarnation of Trijang Dorjechang still practicing Dorje Shugden or has he stopped?
I noticed his Tutor;Geshe Sopa at the demos..that's a good sign.
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: Dharmapal on June 01, 2008, 01:49:19 AM
I spoke with Geshe Sopa at the demonstration and Trijang Choktrul is indeed still practicing Dorje Shugden. He decided to live as a private citizen so that the Dalai Lama has no control over him.

I know most of them are, but if anyone can give me the names of those FPMT lineage Gurus who are/are not Dorje Shugden practitioners, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: Graham on June 01, 2008, 01:59:44 AM
take a look at the page, from what i know, it goes like this:

                                yes
                         yes yes yes no
                         no  no  yes yes
                         ?    no  yes yes
                         ?     ?    ?   yes
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: stibo on June 04, 2008, 08:57:59 PM
Hi All,

Regarding the Pabongka Rinpoche letter to the 13th Dalai Lama, I read this letter 4 or 5 weeks ago and I have been surprised at first. Then, after I have some thought about it, I came to the conclusion that this letter fit too well in the frame up that the TGIE is creating.

Does the reading that Heartspoon is doing can explain the letter? I have to be convinced, because Pabongka Rinpoche would have been more explicit. I'm totally convinced that he wouldn't have contradict his own point of view on the status of Dordje Shugden without giving well formulated and clear arguments as he did in the introduction of the "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors".

I suspect that the explanation should be look at in the direction were TrinleyKalsang point to:

"From what I've heard this letter from the 13th is made up later and inserted into his works.  There was friction between the 13th and Phabonkha, such as over the validity of the Southern Tradition of Manjushri's Own Words.  The 13th ordered him to give him proof over validity of the lineage in 5 minutes or he would be arrested, Phabongkha said "my guru can't be wrong, if you look in the Potala collection in this book page # etc. you will see this line..."  So Phabongkha spontaneously, with his clairvoyance provided all of the sutra page numbers and where they were in the Potala, and the 13th just had to accept it.".

I'm not sure I completely understand the relation between the Pabongka Rinpoche letter and the Southern Tradition of Manjushri's Own Words, but I think that people who have access to many editions of HH the 13th Dalai Lama should find in which edition and when this letter suddently appear. Rewriting the history, creating and deleting events and documents is a well known method used throughout the history.
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: a friend on June 04, 2008, 09:19:25 PM
Now, this is exactly the type of document we would like to have in our possession to examine ... But don't forget that many documents got lost during exile and the pertinent ones, if they exist, are not going to be handed to us.

They say that for many parts of the world and many historic cycles the Vatican Libraries hold the type of secrets you are referring to.

Unhappily we don't even have such a slight hope as knowing that the documents are in a specific place and that we might be able to locate them some day...

Imagine, friend, that things that happened if front of journalists, that are filmed and stored, are later on denied. And nobody cares. How are we going to find documents to disprove fake documents?

For example, the Colgate University demonstration happened, as it were, hours ago. Everybody can see the video, can see the amount of people in attendance, can see the Dalai Lama's spokesperson talking to them.
The other day, this same spokesperson for the Dalai Lama was asked a question about this demonstration in a radio in Asia. Do you know what he said? Oh, yes, yes, there were some people there, like 4 Tibetans and 20 Westerners.

...

So, if what we know about the behaviour of a person contradicts documents about the same person ... well, we have the power of inference on our side.
My suggestion is:

Let's tell the world the truth, that everything indicates that this letter is a falsity introduced in a true document, that nothing in the behaviour of Pabongkapa shows the possibility of it being true.
    Let's also tell the world that the Thirteen Dalai Lama was a follower of Dorje Shugden's advice for such huge matters as renovating stupas and the Potala itself in order to create a protection for Tibet. Which allows us to infer with excellent reason that the Thirteenth Dalai Lama's inimical mind against the Protector might be another lie or exageration or twisting the meaning of long ago occurrences.
Title: Re: Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang - Dharma Preacher
Post by: stibo on June 05, 2008, 08:32:56 AM
I made a mistake, instead of "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors" I was thinking of the Kangsto ("The drum..."), I have the text in french and I forgot the title in english.