dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: psylotripitaka on February 08, 2013, 08:16:46 AM
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In various threads, forum members have expressed that they regard the ban as the skillful means of the Dalai Lama (Chenrezig). I posted the following response in the 'messages from Alexis' thread, but because it is such an important topic of contemplation, I thought it would be good to have its own thread for for subject-specific dialogue. In light of all the Guru devotion discussions, this will probably come as a taboo topic, but it is an important topic to consider. If it has already come up elsewhere please forgive my unknowing but one can only spend so much time on here.
"Curious Vajratruth, so are you saying that if it serves the greater good, it is acceptable to do the following:
1) lie
2) trash talk our lineage Gurus including our own root Guru
3) force people to break their samaya through coercion, signature campaigns, economic withholding and so forth
4) encourage others to destroy peoples homes and shrines
5) cause international schism within the Buddhist community
6) bring the Buddhadharma into disrepute
7) encourage others to stop peaceful protesters by whatever means
8)put lineage Gurus on 10 most hated enemies of the state and issue death threats to them
9) cause extensive ostracism within an already exiled community
10) and so forth and so on?
Jetsun Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche said once that for the last sentient being the Guru would emanate an entire world system and its contents so that they can generate universal compassion and thereby attain enlightenment. There is also the section in Dorje Shugden Kangso saying that to tame disciples he displays skillful means beyond ordinary understanding by appearing in guises such as deluded and insane beings. However....
We are then left with a contemplation of how to have pure view yet interact with the conventions of a situation in a practical way. We may view everything as emanated by the Guru, yet we must avoid what is called 'wrong compassion' (compassion for Holy beings that are not suffering), so in order to generate compassion for the person that appears to be suffering and making mistakes, we have to withdraw our view that they are an emanation and relate to the suffering being that appears, and deal with the situation accordingly.
I can see the various benefits that are appearing as a response to the ban, however, certainly we must understand that the blessings of the Gelug lineage and Dorje Shugden practice would have spread just fine without the need for a ban, and in fact, it was already. Of course, now many people have an acute awareness about Dorje Shugden, however, we must acknowledge it is at such a very heavy cost indeed!! If we look at all the inappropriate bullshit that has happened, how much suffering there has been, how many people have broken their samaya, how many people have lost their faith and abandoned Dharma and so on, how can we think of such things as being the Dalai Lama's skillful means?
We may consider the two views I mentioned earlier, and indeed, it seems you hold these types of pure view of the Dalai Lama, however, from a practical point of view, regardless of whatever benefits we think have come, the actions of the Dalai Lama and his ban-supporters have been totally hypocritical, inappropriate for Buddhists, and completely contradict basic human rights, religious rights, lineage customs, the Dharma, and last but not least, common sense.
Inwardly, we may see the Dalai Lama as Chenrezig, but the aspect and actions of his emanation are conventionally wrong. This emanation has shown the aspect of abandoning the root Guru, so how does a person who's abandoned their root Guru have a blessed lineage to transmit if their very connection to the lineage has been severed?
I mean no disrespect to the Holy beings by sharing my contemplation, but though emanations of my Guru abound, different aspects are demanding the most appropriate response from me, and in this situation, compassion for a sentient being creating huge negative karma and ordering others to do the same is more appropriate than regarding the person as a Holy being.
If my Guru contradicted the Dharma like this, I would tell him his actions are wrong and to stop and heal the situation. The aspect the Guru is showing is an ordinary human being that makes mistakes. In the lamrim we are encouraged to focus exclusively on the good qualities of the Guru and maintain inattentiveness to apparent faults. However, if according to the normal conventions of society the mistakes are way beyond small things that we can easily overlook, it is our duty to confront these mistaken actions.
I have never had a connection to the Dalai Lama, but I have respected the beneficial Dharma actions that he has done. I understand that this situation is particularly challenging for those that regard him as one of their Teachers, but as I have said, if the wrong actions are by convention having a greater negative impact, it is our duty to confront our Teacher and tell them to stop. We may have pure view of the inner aspect, but the outer aspect is an ordinary human being doing wrong actions, and such a being is an object of compassion."
That said, I do not believe the ban has served the greater good. I urge you to think carefully about what the situation would look like today if the ban had never occurred. Here's a little help to get you started - First: think in great detail about all the destructive things that have happened since the ban went public. Second: imagine none of that ever happened.
Your dialogue is most welcome.
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I concur with just about everything you said. Thank you for sharing. :)
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In the light, I would still view the Dalai Lama as Chenrezig and that he is in a divine play with Dorje Shugden, Nechung and the rest of the High Lamas in order to tame living beings of this time and age. If you think about it, how many Lamas out there give initiations to plant the seeds for the future as opposed to actually training their students to be fit vessels of tantra, then giving initiations and empowerments for them to practice and reach enlightenment? From retrospect, the Dalai Lama's actions of denying his root Gurus indirectly seems to have generated a generation of Buddhists who hops around as if it was a spiritual buffet that they can choose from. Perhaps it is the nature of the beings in this worldsystem of this time and the only way the Dalai Lama can hook them is by manifesting the ban and denying his root lamas and promoting a twisted version of the rime. How kind is he to manifest this way.
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I totally concur with your analysis, I cannot see how we can regard as good all the things that the Dalai Lama has done to instigate and continue this ban and regardless of how someone views the Dalai Lama, these damaging actions do have to be confronted and challenged. What can be more damaging than to force Buddhist practitioners to break their vows and commitments to their Gurus, using Palden Lhamo for political purposes and causing a schism in the Buddhist community?
There is a real contradiction on this forum. On the one hand, many people subscribe to the 'big picture' that the Dalai Lama has banned the practice in order to make Dorje Shugden practice more popular and cause it to flourish more widely, but then on the other hand they are hoping, as evidenced by recent threads, that the Dalai Lama stop criticising Dorje Shugden and lift the ban. If it is the case that the ban has made Dorje Shugden practice more popular, everyone should be hoping that the Dalai Lama will criticise Dorje Shugden even more and never lift the ban! So which is it?
I understand that everyone who reveres the Dalai Lama is having difficulty in accepting what he has done to his own tradition and are struggling to make sense of it and from this point of view, the 'big picture' is one explanation - albeit a somewhat illogical one, I would say.
To my mind, the DL has brought the Gelugpa tradition into disrepute, as the consequences of his reasoning are that the Gelugpas have no pure practice and are spirit worshippers! This is obviously ridiculous. How can bringing your own Gurus and tradition into disrepute ever be a good thing? At the very least, someone who does this, even if they were well intentioned for some reason, would be doing an incredibly foolish thing. I believe that if Dorje Shugden practice has grown in the years since the ban, this shows the power of Great King Duldzin to flourish this tradition even in the most unfavourable conditions. It is more a testament to the power of our Protector than the skill of the DL, in my view. We cannot know the Dalai Lama's motivation in doing these things but to all intents and purposes, he seems to have had a really good go at destroying the Gelugpa tradition and has gone too far in trying to accommodate the wishes of the other traditions who seem to be jealous of the Gelugpas. In reality, all Buddhist traditions are equally precious and should be respected and protected equally. The domination of the Gelugpa tradition and the persecution of the other traditions of Tibetan Buddhism is due to the political actions of the Fifth Dalai Lama really, and that has caused bitterness amongst the other traditions. All the blame is being placed on Je Pabongkhapa and Dorje Shugden, sadly. It's just the manifestation of jealousy and sectarian hatred - but ironically it's Dorje Shugden is accused of being a sectarian spirit!
It's hard to see if these wounds will ever be healed, no matter what the Dalai Lama does about the ban. But then this is samsara, so what can we expect? ;)
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Truth is subjective and dependent on research, study, and analysis. Obviously HHDL has researched the Shugden issue and find it not beneficial. I subscribe to that truth. You may not.
As to contradictions on this forum, CONTRADICTIONS is the wrong word. ??? It is a forum with different people and opinions after all. I know many of my Tibetan friends here in Dharamsala as well as Americans visit the forum regularly although they don't participate yet and do not agree, but they find the threads interesting all the same. When everyone has a different opinion expressed politely albeit passionately at times, this is not a contradictions but an expression of pluralistic thinking. Why should everyone on the forum sing the same tune or agree to everything? Makes it very boring and doesn't challenge our thinking. There should be differences in opinion on every forum so there will be polite sharing and discussions to learn. Why should everyone fall in line with just one type of thinking or theory. I respect everyone here although I don't believe Shugden is beneficial. ::)
You believe Shugden is good. You don't subscribe to the big picture. Another individual believe Shugden is good and does subscribe to the big picture (whatever that might be). And I don't believe in either. So what is wrong with that? This is a forum and let's express and challenge eachother to think. :)
This forum as far as I can tell does not belong to a group or organization but simply operates openly for all to read and enjoy. Why am I here? I am intrigued with why Shugden is such a big deal when there is so much more teachings out there to explore, namely 84,000. ;)
I totally concur with your analysis, I cannot see how we can regard as good all the things that the Dalai Lama has done to instigate and continue this ban and regardless of how someone views the Dalai Lama, these damaging actions do have to be confronted and challenged. What can be more damaging than to force Buddhist practitioners to break their vows and commitments to their Gurus, using Palden Lhamo for political purposes and causing a schism in the Buddhist community?
There is a real contradiction on this forum. On the one hand, many people subscribe to the 'big picture' that the Dalai Lama has banned the practice in order to make Dorje Shugden practice more popular and cause it to flourish more widely, but then on the other hand they are hoping, as evidenced by recent threads, that the Dalai Lama stop criticising Dorje Shugden and lift the ban. If it is the case that the ban has made Dorje Shugden practice more popular, everyone should be hoping that the Dalai Lama will criticise Dorje Shugden even more and never lift the ban! So which is it?
I understand that everyone who reveres the Dalai Lama is having difficulty in accepting what he has done to his own tradition and are struggling to make sense of it and from this point of view, the 'big picture' is one explanation - albeit a somewhat illogical one, I would say.
To my mind, the DL has brought the Gelugpa tradition into disrepute, as the consequences of his reasoning are that the Gelugpas have no pure practice and are spirit worshippers! This is obviously ridiculous. How can bringing your own Gurus and tradition into disrepute ever be a good thing? At the very least, someone who does this, even if they were well intentioned for some reason, would be doing an incredibly foolish thing. I believe that if Dorje Shugden practice has grown in the years since the ban, this shows the power of Great King Duldzin to flourish this tradition even in the most unfavourable conditions. It is more a testament to the power of our Protector than the skill of the DL, in my view. We cannot know the Dalai Lama's motivation in doing these things but to all intents and purposes, he seems to have had a really good go at destroying the Gelugpa tradition and has gone too far in trying to accommodate the wishes of the other traditions who seem to be jealous of the Gelugpas. In reality, all Buddhist traditions are equally precious and should be respected and protected equally. The domination of the Gelugpa tradition and the persecution of the other traditions of Tibetan Buddhism is due to the political actions of the Fifth Dalai Lama really, and that has caused bitterness amongst the other traditions. All the blame is being placed on Je Pabongkhapa and Dorje Shugden, sadly. It's just the manifestation of jealousy and sectarian hatred - but ironically it's Dorje Shugden is accused of being a sectarian spirit!
It's hard to see if these wounds will ever be healed, no matter what the Dalai Lama does about the ban. But then this is samsara, so what can we expect? ;)
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I totally concur with your analysis, I cannot see how we can regard as good all the things that the Dalai Lama has done to instigate and continue this ban and regardless of how someone views the Dalai Lama, these damaging actions do have to be confronted and challenged. What can be more damaging than to force Buddhist practitioners to break their vows and commitments to their Gurus, using Palden Lhamo for political purposes and causing a schism in the Buddhist community?
There is a real contradiction on this forum. On the one hand, many people subscribe to the 'big picture' that the Dalai Lama has banned the practice in order to make Dorje Shugden practice more popular and cause it to flourish more widely, but then on the other hand they are hoping, as evidenced by recent threads, that the Dalai Lama stop criticising Dorje Shugden and lift the ban. If it is the case that the ban has made Dorje Shugden practice more popular, everyone should be hoping that the Dalai Lama will criticise Dorje Shugden even more and never lift the ban! So which is it?
I understand that everyone who reveres the Dalai Lama is having difficulty in accepting what he has done to his own tradition and are struggling to make sense of it and from this point of view, the 'big picture' is one explanation - albeit a somewhat illogical one, I would say.
To my mind, the DL has brought the Gelugpa tradition into disrepute, as the consequences of his reasoning are that the Gelugpas have no pure practice and are spirit worshippers! This is obviously ridiculous. How can bringing your own Gurus and tradition into disrepute ever be a good thing? At the very least, someone who does this, even if they were well intentioned for some reason, would be doing an incredibly foolish thing. I believe that if Dorje Shugden practice has grown in the years since the ban, this shows the power of Great King Duldzin to flourish this tradition even in the most unfavourable conditions. It is more a testament to the power of our Protector than the skill of the DL, in my view. We cannot know the Dalai Lama's motivation in doing these things but to all intents and purposes, he seems to have had a really good go at destroying the Gelugpa tradition and has gone too far in trying to accommodate the wishes of the other traditions who seem to be jealous of the Gelugpas. In reality, all Buddhist traditions are equally precious and should be respected and protected equally. The domination of the Gelugpa tradition and the persecution of the other traditions of Tibetan Buddhism is due to the political actions of the Fifth Dalai Lama really, and that has caused bitterness amongst the other traditions. All the blame is being placed on Je Pabongkhapa and Dorje Shugden, sadly. It's just the manifestation of jealousy and sectarian hatred - but ironically it's Dorje Shugden is accused of being a sectarian spirit!
It's hard to see if these wounds will ever be healed, no matter what the Dalai Lama does about the ban. But then this is samsara, so what can we expect? ;)
If the "damage" on Buddhism by the Dalai Lama is real, dont you think Dorje Shugden, Nechung or even Mahakala would have stopped him and ended his life? Dalai Lama would have more and more inauspicious things happening to him such as diseases etc? His words would lose their power due to no blessings and people will stop listening to him? If he has truly betrayed Gelugpa, would the Dharma Protectors let him go? If they did, do the Dharma protectors still exist at this time? If you dont believe that they exist, then you might as well dont believe that Dorje Shugden dont exist. If you believe that the Dalai Lama has done so much damage on purpose and that is his intent, then why is it that he has not gotten the retributions yet? If there are no retributions for his 'bad deeds', it can only be 2 scenarios: the Dharma texts that speak of the repercussions of denying the lineage and denying the Guru is lying to us, the 50 verses are a lie, or that the Dalai Lama is just putting up an act for a higher purpose. Choose. If you believe that HHDL is evil, but no Dharma protector has stopped him so far then you're saying that Dharma protectors dont exist, and if he is evil as you say, why no repercussions? Why can he get away with so much 'evil' deeds? Did Aryadeva lie in his text about Guru devotion? think.
As much as this forum subscribes to the whole bigger picture view, we also hope that the ban be lifted soon to usher a time where we can all practice the Dharmapala openly, and that there is less collateral damage in between. Do remember that just because you hate the Dalai Lama for the ban, it does not represent the sentiment of every Gelug that is also caught in the ban. The rest of the high lamas such as Gangchen Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche even said we should respect HHDL, and the monks of Serpom and Shar Ganden respect HHDL too.
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Ensapa, I see what you mean, so you believe that if the human aspect of the Guru kills someone for example, that this action is ok because it is for a higher purpose; that if they command us to kill others we should do it without question because they have a higher purpose?
We can still confront sentient beings about their wrong actions without losing respect for them, indeed it is because we love and respect them that we try to correct them. Also, just practically speaking, the members of Dorje Shugden society have done a good job speaking up without being rude, although there are a couple exceptions where it was necessary for them to be more direct.
Of course Ashvagosha's compilation of what is said in the Tantras isn't a lie, but we need to reflect on the Gurus actions by holding them up to the mirror of Dharma. If their actions are revealing the path of abandonment, it is not inappropriate to engage them in dialogue about their actions. The particular actions related to the ban are especially very damaging from the pov of Dharma and the pov of the society the Gurus human aspect is operating in. Also, the Gurus teach that some aspects of the 50 verses are cultural and we can adjust according to context. The Gelong vows are similarly flexible.
As for the advisement to respect the Dalai Lama, consider that there are different meanings of 'respect'. Respecting the Dharma activities of a teacher. Being respectful when communicating with others. Respecting the Holy inner and secret aspect of the Guru. Respecting the Buddhanature of living beings. Respecting sentient beings ' freedom and happiness. Be respectful in communicating your views so the world will see a peaceful example that accords with the Dharma. Be respectful because otherwise you will lose your status, funding, and other kinds if support. Be respectful or your human rights will be abused.
Just think of what would have happened to the FPMT if Lama Zopa decided they would be loyal to the lineage Gurus and keep relying on the Protector. Respect has many meanings depending on context.
As for Gurus beating students to help them purify, in today's society, such things are best kept private between Guru and disciple. And if such actions are going to have the opposite effect, it is not appropriate to do it. That is why Marpa Lotsawa told Jetsun Milarepa not to treat his own students as he had done to Milarepa.
Regardless of the view we take, it is outrageous how damaging the ban has been. When we act in contradiction to the Dharma, we are taught to be ashamed of our actions and to take immediate corrective actions. If the Gurus act in accordance with the Dharma, especially in such a broad reaching way as this ban, what is that telling students and the world about the efficacy of the teachings. If I were a teacher that perpetuated the abuses, I would either lift the ban and apologize, or out of respect for the 3 Jewels and world society, I would step down as a teacher rather than perpetuate negativity.
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In the last paragraph, I meant to say 'if the Gurus DO NOT act in accordance with the Dharma'...
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Psylotripitaka,I see your point and the reality is, no one knows the mind of an enlightened being whom the Dalai Lama is. For me, I asked myself whether I am a political analyst or a Dorje Shugden practitioner. If I regard myself as the former, then perhaps questioning the motive behind the Dalai Lama’s ban is in order but what good would that do? What good would it do the practitioner, the practice and the Dharma to trace the origins of the ban? The origins of certain things is not what the Buddha focused on just as the Awakened One did not see benefit in answering questions pertaining to the origins of the earth and the universe.
If one were to say that the Dalai Lama had malicious intentions instead of good ones for the ban where does that place our state of mind vis-à-vis the living emanation of Chenrezig? It is not skillful for us the practitioner to think badly of one whom Trijang Rinpoche has instructed us to keep supporting. So the key question is not whether the Dalai Lama had good or bad intentions for the Shugden ban, but whether we trust the holy Trijang Rinpoche or not? That is the more important question to answer.
So if we are Dorje Shugden practitioners we are also by definition Dharma practitioners and the more beneficial question for us is to ask how we should respond to the ban? For me the proper response is to make my practice even stronger, to have total faith in my Guru and trust in his advice and to do what I can to bring the ban down instead of attempting to bring the Dalai Lama down.
I do not condone the ban nor do I agree with it but that said, I cannot reverse what has been done and so I take my clues from the masters who practice Dorje Shugden today…and they clearly just focus on the practice. I agree that the cost is high. The “cost” is always higher when we want to accomplish something great but we can lessen the cost by making the corresponding result great.
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Vajratruth, for sure!
I want to be clear my intention is that the ban be taken down, not the Dalai Lama. I was merely pointing out the effects of hypocrisy and stating what I would do as a corrective action. Certainly we may not know the mind of others, or whether or not they are actually enlightened for that matter, but it does not dismiss the appropriateness of standing up and saying enough is enough.
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You know, we have discussed this issue extensively and i think it will be one of those "can we please respectfully agree to disagree"... for once I agree with Tenzin Gyatso (shock horror) that we don't all have to agree! A hypothesis was presented - some agree, some don't.
Personally i prefer to believe in the "bigger picture" hypothesis because it makes sense to me, though i was told just the other day, don't believe everything you read on the internet!!
Why i believe it is based really on the words of HH Trijang Rinpoche in "Music Delighting an Ocean of Protectors", where he essentially said don't lose faith in either HH Dalai Lama nor Dorje Shugden. I also heard from a facebook friend who told me that HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche respects HH Dalai Lama. Of course i have no way to validate that but i choose to believe it.
As psylotripitaka says there are different interpretations of 'respect' but i take the general view of respecting him as how the previous incarnation of HH Trijang Rinpoche meant it.
Just to side-track to what psylotripitaka said:
As for Gurus beating students to help them purify, in today's society, such things are best kept private between Guru and disciple. And if such actions are going to have the opposite effect, it is not appropriate to do it. That is why Marpa Lotsawa told Jetsun Milarepa not to treat his own students as he had done to Milarepa.
While i'm not one for spiritual sadomasochism, i did read somewhere that the teacher would gamble on whether the action would have a positive or an opposite effect because in the end, the teacher cannot control the response of the student. The teacher can only know that if he or she does not apply a wrathful action, that particular student may end up in hell for thousands of years, so it is worth doing a particular action, however incomprehensible it may seem. It could wake the student up and change the course of his life and future lives or it could turn the student away - so the teacher does have a huge risk but he or she would weigh it up and decide whether to follow the particular course of action. Thus that would be the teacher acting purely out of compassion and the student should have pure view of the teacher in order to benefit to the max! That's my understanding anyway.
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Firstly, I'd like to say that I don't hate the Dalai Lama. I don't respect him as a spiritual authority, but I do respect him as someone who needs our help and as my Mother. Actually, he's performed a great kindness as through his actions I have had the opportunity to engage in spiritual actions to protect my tradition. I wish it wasn't necessary, though.
With the Yellow Book in circulation, even if the Dalai Lama was destroying Buddhism, how could the Dharma Protectors cause something to happen to him? It would simply prove what was being said all along and the other tradition's criticisms would be valid. Dorje Shugden is more skilful than that - so far, he has prevented the Dalai Lama from creating the worst damage. The Dalai Lama has been singularly unsuccessful in everything he has done, apart from to become a spiritual icon for others. Even though he is widely revered as a Buddhist Teacher he does not encourage people to follow Buddha's teachings and creates confusing ideas such as moving 'beyond religion' - if anything, he is promoting secularism! However, this does not seem to have affected the practice of Buddha's teachings. He has not succeeded in regaining Tibet and no matter what he does, he cannot get the Chinese to have a positive view of him, even though he is a Marxist. He is now regarded as unimportant politically, and many leaders will even refuse to meet with him and even if they do, he is not treated with respect - remember how he was made to leave through the back entrance to the White House, and humiliating pictures were taken of his exit.
For all intents and purposes, the Dalai Lama has totally failed. Fortunately, those who do revere him have developed a positive view of Buddhism, which is a good thing. For better or for worse, the Dorje Shugden issue is largely unknown outside of Buddhism, and even though many efforts have been made to get the world's press involved and to highlight the human rights abuses, there has been no wide scale coverage of the issue. Perhaps this is damage limitation by the Dharma Protectors as well.
Regarding wrathful actions, I don't think these actions can be effective except if they are enacted by a Spiritual Guide who has clairvoyance and great compassion. How can a Spiritual Guide take the risk of turning people away from the path? - only someone with clairvoyance and who knows the outcome of the action for sure will be able to do it. Thus there are very few people who are qualified to perform these actions.
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Dear Lineageholder,
Just a quick one re the wrathful actions, yes i do agree that only a very qualified spiritual guide who i think would be enlightened, would be able to achieve this effectively. Without clairvoyance, wisdom and compassion, it can be very destructive. Saying that, i think that even with clairvoyance, the effect of the spiritual guide's actions is not 100% guaranteed because it is the student who has to decide how to react. The spiritual guide may think that 99%, the student will transform for the better, but there is that 1% which cannot be controlled. If the student is not able to respond well because of his or her own issues - nothing to do with the perfect quality of the guide, then the student may leave. However, due to the compassion of the guide, he is willing to risk that because the benefit would be so much greater.
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This is an extremely interesting discussion and thank you Psylotripitaka for bringing it up. We've had many discussions about this "bigger picture" before LOL! quite a number of years ago, with various points of view.
First, I think it's very important to understand that nobody on this forum wants to bring down the Dalai Lama or cause any harm to him. I think it's also important to understand that whatever we say with regards to the Dalai Lama, or TO the Dalai Lama, we must realise that it is not just about the Dalai Lama but the millions of people who regard him as their teacher. This applies to how we talk of any teacher of course, even our own. Questioning and debate is good, but it's important to do this well so that we don't inadvertently cause more doubt and confusion in other students' minds, which could make them unsteady in their practices or in some cases, turn them away from the teacher and teachings. I have seen this happen sometimes within my own center and with other people with other teachers, so I think we need to be careful how we talk about someone as prominent as the Dalai Lama because it could potentially affect the practice of just as many students who follow him and take teachings from him.
Secondly, I have found the 'bigger picture' a helpful way to think about the situation. This isn't to say that we just sit back and let it happen. So I think what Lineageholder said about it being contradictory isn't really that contradictory. Please let me explain. As the ban is happening, there is a lot of talk about the subject and about Dorje Shugden and that's how the word gets out, as it were. A lot of people who might never otherwise hear about the practice are now hearing about it because it's being mentioned on platforms that would never otherwise talk about it - national and international media, for example!
But we don't just leave it at that, brush our hands clean and say that it's all well and good that DS is growing big in the world now, so let's just wait to see what happens. In the meantime, as it's happening, we do still need to stand up and talk and show WHY the ban is not logical. There are different ways to do this too. We can be respectful about it, call attention to the various contradictions in a Dharmic sense, use the Dharma teachings to back up whatever we have to say, show different elements of why the ban has been unfair, hurtful, and how people are literally suffering because of the ban. BUT we must do all this without putting down the Lamas or speaking in any way harshly or in a damaging or derogatory way (we do this, remembering that they are still teachers to others, and we don't wish to affect these other students and practitioners).
I didn't really like hearing people stand on a street and calling the Dalai Lama a liar and things like that. I thought the peaceful protests were an excellent show of solidarity and effort and called attention to the unfairness of the ban, but there were so many other words that could have been used. To say something as strongly as "Dalai Lama, stop lying" - it will also hurt other practitioners of the Dalai Lama, and that's not what we want to do either.
Also, I think that another way to speak up for the ban doesn't just have to be about putting down the perpetrators of the ban but also about highlighting the good qualities of the practice - of which there are many. Then, we create two strands of action: first, to logically and gently point out the unfairness of the ban and how it is causing suffering to others and secondly, to promote the goodness, truth and positivity of the practice.
Eventually, there isn't really a contradiction. The ban brings the issue up to a point that it gets international attention and attention that is broader than it ever would have been without the controversy. While that's happening, we help those who are suffering as much as we can by supporting them in any way (I think, for example, this website sponsors Shar Gaden and other DS monasteries) and bring hope to the situation by sharing education, presenting different views of why the ban is not correct and highlighting the truth behind the enlightened nature of our protector. There are many things happening at once, and I think that the discussions about Dorje Shugden globally really are at their apex at the moment, in a way that perhaps wouldn't have been possible without the ban.
I'm not saying I agree with the ban and that I am glad it happened, or anything like that. I am just trying to look at it for what it has been and trying, in the midst of all the darkness it has created, to find a little glimmer of light and goodness in it all. And all the while, to maintain faith in all the teachings, the teachers and especially in that rather prophetic line that Trijang Rinpoche wrote in his text about both our protector and the Dalai Lama (which WisdomBeing Kate has highlighted above).
I hope this helps to give you a different perspective somehow... I'm enjoying the discussions! Please do add on!
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I really appreciate all the contributions here.
Buddha made predictions about how long his teachings would survive (in the heart of practitioners), and I believe it was Ngulchu Dharmabhadra later who said that due to the karma of living beings, the amount of time previously predicted had been cut in half. Buddha also predicted that it would come apart from the inside. When we look around at what is happening in this Kali Yuga produced by our own contaminated aggregates, we see people in high positions contradicting the teachings or falling off the boat completely, and this shakes us up inside, like, if these people who have practiced for many years cannot bring about complete transformation, who am I to think I can do it. And indeed many people fall off the boat entirely. There are plenty of examples of the Dharma being destroyed from the inside and we are trying to come to terms with this rapid decline in Holy objects.
But alas, we know that through continually trying we gain both temporary and ultimate benefits so it is worthy of our continued efforts. I know that I repeat this alot, but according to the Lojong in particular, everything we experience is an opportunity to generate, increase, and stabilize realizations, which is the whole reason Buddha taught, and the real meaning of being human. THAT is the real essence of the controversy - it is an opportunity to accomplish realizations.
Not sure who I think I am to be coming on this sight talking like I do, like I even know what the hell I'm talking about, but I am moved to try sharing things that help me, to inspire others mainly in this - My real intention for starting this thread was to again remind us of this most essential of points. There are these many different perspectives on how to work with the ban and the degeneration of our world in general, but as Geshe Chekawa said 'Apply meditation to whatever circumstances you meet'.
Renunciation (aka the Mind of Definite Emergence) is the resultant experience of becoming aware of both the predicament we've put ourself in, and the solution. If our main intention each day is to train the mind and we genuinely tried to give it a good go, that is the highest delight to the Gurus regardless of whatever particular strangeness is appearing in our outer world.
If the Dalai Lama's actions increase one persons faith and another person's compassion due to being mindful of the teachings, when all is said and done, both people are pleasing the Holy beings! Though we may be confused and in a hard place having to decide between Gurus or how to make practical decisions, if we have a good heart and sincerely have tried to generate realization throughout the day and night, we should at the deepest level of our being feel confident that we are not missing the most essential point of being human and meeting the Dharma. This does not excuse inappropriate behavior, but working in some way on our mind is better than none at all, and will eventually bare its fruit.
So, at the end of the day, though we may focus on many different things, the most important point is that we take complete responsibility for what our mind is producing and use that very substance to support inner realizations and therefore the swift destruction of our contaminated aggregates, for the Kali Yuga is not separate from that. In Pure Dakini Land, there is no suffering; no ban; no broken samaya. From the point of view of both Sutra and Tantra, surely we see how our circumstances, when conjoined with mindfulness of wisdom, are the quick path to enlightenment; to that Pure Dakini Land!
Whoever you are, whoever your Guru is, whatever hard decisions we are faced with, please do not miss this essential point. Please seize this opportunity.
As Je Pabonkhapa said:
- "Right this moment is the time to steel your will!"
- "It's not only time - it's almost too late."
- "It's time to place real experience upon your midstream."
- "Who's the faster: Yama, the Lord of Death, or you in your practice of realizing the essence of your eternal dream - the welfare of both yourself and others - as much as you can each day? Unifying your three doors, put the whole of your effort into your practice."
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Truth is subjective and dependent on research, study, and analysis. Obviously HHDL has researched the Shugden issue and find it not beneficial. I subscribe to that truth. You may not.
As to contradictions on this forum, CONTRADICTIONS is the wrong word. ??? It is a forum with different people and opinions after all. I know many of my Tibetan friends here in Dharamsala as well as Americans visit the forum regularly although they don't participate yet and do not agree, but they find the threads interesting all the same. When everyone has a different opinion expressed politely albeit passionately at times, this is not a contradictions but an expression of pluralistic thinking. Why should everyone on the forum sing the same tune or agree to everything? Makes it very boring and doesn't challenge our thinking. There should be differences in opinion on every forum so there will be polite sharing and discussions to learn. Why should everyone fall in line with just one type of thinking or theory. I respect everyone here although I don't believe Shugden is beneficial. ::)
You believe Shugden is good. You don't subscribe to the big picture. Another individual believe Shugden is good and does subscribe to the big picture (whatever that might be). And I don't believe in either. So what is wrong with that? This is a forum and let's express and challenge eachother to think. :)
This forum as far as I can tell does not belong to a group or organization but simply operates openly for all to read and enjoy. Why am I here? I am intrigued with why Shugden is such a big deal when there is so much more teachings out there to explore, namely 84,000. ;)
I totally concur with your analysis, I cannot see how we can regard as good all the things that the Dalai Lama has done to instigate and continue this ban and regardless of how someone views the Dalai Lama, these damaging actions do have to be confronted and challenged. What can be more damaging than to force Buddhist practitioners to break their vows and commitments to their Gurus, using Palden Lhamo for political purposes and causing a schism in the Buddhist community?
There is a real contradiction on this forum. On the one hand, many people subscribe to the 'big picture' that the Dalai Lama has banned the practice in order to make Dorje Shugden practice more popular and cause it to flourish more widely, but then on the other hand they are hoping, as evidenced by recent threads, that the Dalai Lama stop criticising Dorje Shugden and lift the ban. If it is the case that the ban has made Dorje Shugden practice more popular, everyone should be hoping that the Dalai Lama will criticise Dorje Shugden even more and never lift the ban! So which is it?
I understand that everyone who reveres the Dalai Lama is having difficulty in accepting what he has done to his own tradition and are struggling to make sense of it and from this point of view, the 'big picture' is one explanation - albeit a somewhat illogical one, I would say.
To my mind, the DL has brought the Gelugpa tradition into disrepute, as the consequences of his reasoning are that the Gelugpas have no pure practice and are spirit worshippers! This is obviously ridiculous. How can bringing your own Gurus and tradition into disrepute ever be a good thing? At the very least, someone who does this, even if they were well intentioned for some reason, would be doing an incredibly foolish thing. I believe that if Dorje Shugden practice has grown in the years since the ban, this shows the power of Great King Duldzin to flourish this tradition even in the most unfavourable conditions. It is more a testament to the power of our Protector than the skill of the DL, in my view. We cannot know the Dalai Lama's motivation in doing these things but to all intents and purposes, he seems to have had a really good go at destroying the Gelugpa tradition and has gone too far in trying to accommodate the wishes of the other traditions who seem to be jealous of the Gelugpas. In reality, all Buddhist traditions are equally precious and should be respected and protected equally. The domination of the Gelugpa tradition and the persecution of the other traditions of Tibetan Buddhism is due to the political actions of the Fifth Dalai Lama really, and that has caused bitterness amongst the other traditions. All the blame is being placed on Je Pabongkhapa and Dorje Shugden, sadly. It's just the manifestation of jealousy and sectarian hatred - but ironically it's Dorje Shugden is accused of being a sectarian spirit!
It's hard to see if these wounds will ever be healed, no matter what the Dalai Lama does about the ban. But then this is samsara, so what can we expect? ;)
Tenzin, thank you for sharing your views in this particular thread, for you have answered at least one of my previous questions - why you are here? I would just like to address your answer.
Simply put, the reason Dorje Shugden is such a big deal is that many realized lineage Gurus of several different schools of Tibetan Buddhism have told us that he is wisdom Buddha Manjushri and that now is the time to rely upon him. They have given extensive logical support for who he is, what he is capable of, and the benefits of reliance, the most important being the development and protection of Dharma Wisdom within our own mind - we become our own Protector. He helps us realize the 84,000 teachings of Buddha and protects that realization in different ways. Not only are we told this, but many practitioners have direct experience of these benefits, and this cannot be denied, it is a fact. Whether you care to believe that or not, whether the Dalai Lama cares to believe that or not, this is the reality. And if you two who share the same name want to believe the Dharmapala is a spirit, it will not be the first spirit to have helped practitioners along the path to enlightenment, as we can clearly see in many stories, Jetsun Milarepa's 5 consorts being one such example.
Sure, we can see examples of people who rely upon this King of Protectors who fall off the path or who's realization degenerates, but this is not the fault of the Dharmapala, for all the Buddhas can only work within the frame of our particular Karma, and being the Kali Yuga, it is not a surprise that people fall. Nonetheless, he is very helpful to many people, so for them he is certainly a rock star just as the Dalai Lama is for you. So let us mutually respect each other, and I ask that in your support of the ban and the Dalai Lama, please do not go out of your way to harm others as so many other people like you have. Please act in accordance with Buddha Shakyamuni's teaching to take great care to help suffering mother beings. Life is hard enough, please don't make it harder for people. Love them as you love yourself, as you love His Holiness, for surely you will be taking the essence of your human life.
Thanks again for sharing your time and perspectives.
Much love,
psylotripitaka
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;D Here we go again... and I must say it is refreshing to see this subject of debate or dialogue is popping up again... and gosh all this arose from the "Ban"! Isn't it just sooo ironic... because of this silly horrible "ban" that is why we are even here so actively discussing it on this forum. How many Dorje Shugden websites have been created since the ban, how many DOrje SHugden Youtubes done since the ban, How many Dorje Shugden books, posters, brochures etc created since the ban and before there was not much or close to none. And the perfect "real time" example of how the ban created by this one single voice... HHDL is creating chatters on this FORUM! Do we even pause to realize this? I don't think we'd be this passionate to talk or think about Dorje Shugden if there was no "ban".
I do admit in the beginning when I first heard about the ban, I also had a few doubts and questions such as what Lineageholder have pointed out like how could someone who is Chenrezig cause so much pain, suffering and chaos but this is if we view this event through our limited lens of gross contaminated projections. Then I regained faith in His Holiness and even more faith in Dorje Shugden after visiting this website and reading through their stand, logic and reasoning without having to put anyone down especially His Holiness... Just read their mission statement here which is worthy of contemplations and correct motivation I personally feel http://www.dorjeshugden.com/mission-statement/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/mission-statement/)
I'm sorry I just cannot put down any sangha down, especially someone like the Dalai Lama... no matter how bad they may appear as this is one of our basic Buddhist vows taught by Buddha himself and it has heavy negative repercussions, so I am gonna play it safe here, sorry, and not be too cheeky and smart and break it. Simple all we need to do is look at ourselves and check what we have done, what's our result in being, look at Dalai Lama's... (remove your mind from the ban issue) you will be in no comparison! No matter what anyone says, you cannot ignore the fact that He has saved and helped tremendously in the preservation and growth of Vajrayana Buddhism globally!
But I do speak out, I condemn, I rebel, I reject all the negative actions created by the Tibetan govt/CTA and those who took the Dalai Lama's words literally and acted violently towards their own teachers, sangha and Dharma brothers and sisters! This is the part that is most unfortunate, most disheartening and the saddest of it all for there is huge repercussions... as we all know "karma will come back"... why on earth do you think Tibet lost their country in the first place... if we say it is not because of "karma", the Tibetan's past actions... then we might as well say we do not believe in Buddhas teachings. Then we might as well say we're not Buddhist, no?
So yes you can say because of HHDL, my faith in Buddhism, in my Gurus and in Dorje Shugden have increased tremendously at a very large speed. So I thank His Holiness for this although this does not mean I agree and support the negative actions, pain and suffering created and caused due to this ban! I am looking at the glass...and see it is half full not half empty :) And I'm sure I am not the only one, not only has many faiths strengthen, this ban has created a whole new wave of Dorje Shugden practiced being revived and perhaps you could say encouraged and supported by China. Anything the Dalai Lama says is bad... they will pick it up and use it... so to me this is so brilliantly skillful, how could someone like the Dalai Lama not foresee this. It's ridiculous to even think that. As someone has mentioned before by someone in the previous thread on this subject... (Tibetans in exile population, approx 140,000 ++ versus China's population 1,344,130,000 ++)..which do you think a Buddha would pick???? ;)
Thanks for all the sharing... it has been an interesting exchange!
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This is a interesting discussion. I have my doubts to on this controversy, while trying to spread DS to the whole world, many sacrificed. But there are a few points here stopping me from making any conclusion until the 'truth' is revealed.
My thoughts are:
1) could it be our collective karmas that DS has to appear this way? For a Guru (a buddha) to remain with the us or students, we have to create the karmas for this to happen. If we do no create the right cause, gurus will not remain. So, it might be our collective karmas that DS cannot appear to us in a peaceful situation but in a controversy like this. I remember when Naropa set off to look for his guru Tilopa, he was not able to meet or see him directly. Tilopa has to appear in other forms to give him teachings.
2) People who sacrificed because of the ban, they might have prayed in their previous lives that they would do anything to spread DS? Just like how Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen maniefest as DS, he has made a promise in his previous life that he would protect Tsongkhapa's teachings, even it meant to die in a horrible death.
3) Tilopa has instructed Naropa to bring him curry from a wedding, Tilopa knew very well that Naropa would have to steal in order to satistfy his ' craving ' for the curry but yet Tilopa still sent Naropa regardless. Can we conclude that Tilopa was not an attained master because he encouraged stealing?
To be able to see, to understand and to have realisation depends on our karmas. Therefore, I would say as of now, I do not have the Karma to understand what HH Dalai Lama is doing. I would not make any conclusion just yet. However, I do believe he is a highy attained master, a man with full of wisdom. I still respect him.
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I was waiting for someone to bring up the curry...isn't there also a story where Buddha tells his students to go steal some food or something, and all of them leave but one, who when asked by Buddha why he didn't go with everyone else he replied 'you are always teaching the faults of stealing and the benefits of moral discipline, so it would contradict your instruction to have gone with them' and Buddha replied 'you're the only one that got it'. Did I read that on here...such a poor memory.
I've read some stuff in other threads about our topic and see a middle way that people are working with, but wanted to share the other two perspectives as an alternative way to work with the controversy.
The middle way I see is quite simple - while maintaining our view that the human aspect of the Guru is an emanation of Buddha, upon observing actions that contradict the teachings, we can respectfully engage them in dialogue and confront them about it. If there is no openness to dialogue, we are left in a position of having to make some decisions, and I have seen a variety of decisions being made from both sides while people maintain pure view and this is a wonderful example.
This entire subject is very bound up with tantric view vs. ordinary conceptions, and it is very important that whatever view we choose at any particular moment, that it is increasing the vibration of our virtuous minds.
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I was waiting for someone to bring up the curry...isn't there also a story where Buddha tells his students to go steal some food or something, and all of them leave but one, who when asked by Buddha why he didn't go with everyone else he replied 'you are always teaching the faults of stealing and the benefits of moral discipline, so it would contradict your instruction to have gone with them' and Buddha replied 'you're the only one that got it'. Did I read that on here...such a poor memory.
I've read some stuff in other threads about our topic and see a middle way that people are working with, but wanted to share the other two perspectives as an alternative way to work with the controversy.
The middle way I see is quite simple - while maintaining our view that the human aspect of the Guru is an emanation of Buddha, upon observing actions that contradict the teachings, we can respectfully engage them in dialogue and confront them about it. If there is no openness to dialogue, we are left in a position of having to make some decisions, and I have seen a variety of decisions being made from both sides while people maintain pure view and this is a wonderful example.
This entire subject is very bound up with tantric view vs. ordinary conceptions, and it is very important that whatever view we choose at any particular moment, that it is increasing the vibration of our virtuous minds.
Dear psylotripitaka,
Interesting viewpoint about the Buddha's story. The story seems to be coming from the viewpoint of a Theravadin where the focus is more upon external morality. There is a similar story in Vajrayana of Naropa and his Guru Tilopa that is totally opposite of what you just said.
In this story, Tilopa the Guru loved the curry that Norapa brought back from one of his begging rounds at a wedding and he kept asking for more. After a few times, Naropa knew he would be rejected for asking for so much. In order not to disappoint his Guru, he let go of inhibition as a mendicant and stole the pot of curry and brought it back to his Guru. When the Guru received the curry, he knew of Naropa's letting go of his ego and thanked him and called him as his son for the first time in many years of service. He knew that it was time for him to receive initiation and bestowed initiation of Vajravarahi unto him.
It is believed that for those with higher motivations like the great masters, the reality of actions, whether they are negative or not cannot be determined solely by the action alone. It is the motivation and if we cannot determine that, it is the result of the action, we can see what was the motivation. Hence, such masters like Chogyam Trungpa, who was a great teacher but with a terrible reputation of being an alcoholic and a womaniser, manage to pull together Shambala. For someone like the Dalai Lama, who is immaculate for everything except his ban on Dorje Shugden, that has managed to get China to spread Dorje Shugden practice and in a strange way, spurt the growth of New Kadampa Tradition and other Dorje Shugden organisations the world over. Instead of stamping out Dorje Shugden, the results seem to point towards spreading it. That's how I see it from the facts that is presented here and on the news.
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...... it is very important that whatever view we choose at any particular moment, that it is increasing the vibration of our virtuous minds.
Psylotripitaka, I love what you have said here, especially what I put in bold. Ultimately, that's what any true teacher wishes for his students - that their minds transform and goodness increases.
I also like what you have said about being able to debate and be open to dialogue. Any true teacher would be more than happy to answer our questions if we ask sincerely, with the wish to understand what we are doing better, and therefore get much better results from it. I think, a variation of your story about the Buddha telling his disciples to steal, would be for any student to just ask him from the start what this is about and to request that he be excused from this instruction as it contradicts the former teachings. This would be his form of questioning the instruction but respectfully, and with the wish to understand why he should or shouldn't do something at a deeper level.
I have asked my teacher many times when I am unsure of something and he has patiently answered every of my questions, even if he had already answered them a hundred times before. I know there comes a point where you need to have some trust and understand that the teacher isn't going to do anything that hurts you but what i mean to say is that a true teacher will never not answer a student's question if it is asked sincerely and with the wish to understand and do things better.
However, it's also important to know when the questioning just becomes a form of resistance or when we ask only as a kind of delay tactic, or because we are just arguing for the sake of it. If the teacher has explained something very clearly and his instructions to us are logical and clear, but we still refuse to do it, then we need to ask ourselves why it is that we are even following this person as a teacher.
I was told once that a teacher doesn't need or want us to be dependent on him. Ultimately, he wants us to be free agents, independent and able to think for ourselves - we become our own teachers and moral compass. So it's about being careful not to develop this over-dependency on him either. Like you said, whatever we have chosen to do, we need to think about whether it's increasing our goodness or if it's just making the delusion in us grow even stronger.
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For someone like the Dalai Lama, who is immaculate for everything except his ban on Dorje Shugden, that has managed to get China to spread Dorje Shugden practice and in a strange way, spurt the growth of New Kadampa Tradition and other Dorje Shugden organisations the world over. Instead of stamping out Dorje Shugden, the results seem to point towards spreading it. That's how I see it from the facts that is presented here and on the news.
Sorry, I can't agree with this. I find that this is a strange view - it's almost like attributing the success of Atisha's activities of spreading Buddhadharma in Tibet to the destructive reign of King Langdarma previously! Are you saying that the growth of the New Kadampa Tradition is due to the ban on Dorje Shugden? You would not believe the ostracism and negativity we have had to endure from other Buddhist traditions as a result of the Dalai Lama's ban. We've had people from other Buddhist groups phoning venues where we hold classes and actively trying to get them stopped. NKT has also received much criticism for standing up against the Dalai Lama, and for the protests of 1996/7 and 2008.
The growth of NKT is due to the purity of Geshe Kelsang's intention and the power of Lama Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden, nothing else. The growth of Dorje Shugden organisations is due to the power of the Great King also, in spite of the Dalai Lama's attempts to stamp out the practice. I rejoice in all Buddhist traditions and practitioners but the Dalai Lama can take no credit for the growth of reliance on Dorje Shugden.
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We've had people from other Buddhist groups phoning venues where we hold classes and actively trying to get them stopped. NKT has also received much criticism for standing up against the Dalai Lama, and for the protests of 1996/7 and 2008.
Lineageholder,
This is quite interesting and not something widely reported. Can you please share with us a bit more on how other Buddhist groups tried to stop NKT activities? Was it a Shugden related issue and how was it resolved? Is there still trouble for Shugden practitioners and what do the local law enforcement people do about it?
I would like to hear accounts of how the ban has affected people outside Dharamsala.
Thank you.
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"Curious Vajratruth, so are you saying that if it serves the greater good, it is acceptable to do the following:
1) lie
2) trash talk our lineage Gurus including our own root Guru
3) force people to break their samaya through coercion, signature campaigns, economic withholding and so forth
4) encourage others to destroy peoples homes and shrines
5) cause international schism within the Buddhist community
6) bring the Buddhadharma into disrepute
7) encourage others to stop peaceful protesters by whatever means
8)put lineage Gurus on 10 most hated enemies of the state and issue death threats to them
9) cause extensive ostracism within an already exiled community
10) and so forth and so on?
In his reply to one of his students, Lama Zopa Rinpoche has this to say about Dorje Shugden practice below. Please refer the article Caught Between a Rock and Hard Place http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/caught-between-a-rock-and-hard-place/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/caught-between-a-rock-and-hard-place/)
Therefore, it becomes very important to support His Holiness and to fulfil His Holiness’ wishes. For that reason, Kopan Monastery stopped doing this practice. This was done for His Holiness. This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Zong Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil. For us ordinary people it is difficult to judge, because we cannot see these lamas’ minds.
Another side of the teaching is that it is mentioned that the protector is an Arya Bodhisattva, a manifestation of Manjushri. So, then, there is also the risk of our creating very heavy karma in that context. [for having bad thoughts about an enlightened being]
Similarly we are not in the position to say that HH Dalai Lama is wrong even though all of these “ordinary” actions appear to be wrong and totally contravene the very essence of what Buddhism taught – compassion, kindness, love, non-harming of others and so on. If HH Dalai Lama is truly an emanation of Buddha Chenrezig, He would have complete omniscience and clairvoyance of the consequences of initiating the ban. He would have known the suffering of each and every one affected by the ban. How could He not know? Even if HH Dalai Lama is not an emanation of Buddha Chenrezig, as a lineage holder of Buddha Shakyamuni, HH Dalai Lama would have the common sense to know the effect of the ban would have on many people! Similarly, HH Dalai Lama/emanation of Buddha Chenrezig will know who Dorje Shugden is from the very outset and not changed His mind later saying that Dorje Shugden is a spirit!
Another quote from Lama Zopa Rinpoche’ advice to his student below. Please refer the article Caught Between a Rock and Hard Place http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/caught-between-a-rock-and-hard-place/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/caught-between-a-rock-and-hard-place/)
Another way to look at this situation is that although in reality there is no mistake on the guru’s part, nevertheless we see mistakes according to our karma. The guru shows mistakes because we only have the karma to see this manifestation at this moment, and nothing else.
In this matter, that aspect becomes most precious and important for us, for our minds. As it is mentioned by Gyalwa Ensapa, “Until one becomes separated from evil karmic obscurations, even if all the Buddhas without exception directly descend in front of one, one will not have the fortune to see the supreme holy body, adorned with the holy signs and exemplifications, but rather only the present appearance (the ordinary view). ”
Until we have completely purified our obscuration to the mind, we continue to perceive HH Dalai Lama’s actions as ordinary. In other words, HH Dalai Lama is “wrong” with the ban.
Not everyone can have the pure view of HH Dalai Lama’s actions as beneficial and for the greater cause. Not everyone can accept that it is our mistaken view on the pure action of the enlightened being like HH Dalai Lama.
Great damage had been done and a huge one indeed! Everyone that is affected by this ban has the karma to experience this huge obstacle! If we can transform these adversities into the path, we can definitely purify our heavy negative karma! But again, not many will be able to transform these! Notwithstanding that, as Dorje Shugden practitioners, we have the personal responsibility to create the cause for the ban to be lifted. We have the responsibility as Buddhists to uphold the Dharma and right the wrong.
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I was waiting for someone to bring up the curry...isn't there also a story where Buddha tells his students to go steal some food or something, and all of them leave but one, who when asked by Buddha why he didn't go with everyone else he replied 'you are always teaching the faults of stealing and the benefits of moral discipline, so it would contradict your instruction to have gone with them' and Buddha replied 'you're the only one that got it'. Did I read that on here...such a poor memory.
I've read some stuff in other threads about our topic and see a middle way that people are working with, but wanted to share the other two perspectives as an alternative way to work with the controversy.
The middle way I see is quite simple - while maintaining our view that the human aspect of the Guru is an emanation of Buddha, upon observing actions that contradict the teachings, we can respectfully engage them in dialogue and confront them about it. If there is no openness to dialogue, we are left in a position of having to make some decisions, and I have seen a variety of decisions being made from both sides while people maintain pure view and this is a wonderful example.
This entire subject is very bound up with tantric view vs. ordinary conceptions, and it is very important that whatever view we choose at any particular moment, that it is increasing the vibration of our virtuous minds.
Dear psylotripitaka,
Interesting viewpoint about the Buddha's story. The story seems to be coming from the viewpoint of a Theravadin where the focus is more upon external morality. There is a similar story in Vajrayana of Naropa and his Guru Tilopa that is totally opposite of what you just said.
In this story, Tilopa the Guru loved the curry that Norapa brought back from one of his begging rounds at a wedding and he kept asking for more. After a few times, Naropa knew he would be rejected for asking for so much. In order not to disappoint his Guru, he let go of inhibition as a mendicant and stole the pot of curry and brought it back to his Guru. When the Guru received the curry, he knew of Naropa's letting go of his ego and thanked him and called him as his son for the first time in many years of service. He knew that it was time for him to receive initiation and bestowed initiation of Vajravarahi unto him.
It is believed that for those with higher motivations like the great masters, the reality of actions, whether they are negative or not cannot be determined solely by the action alone. It is the motivation and if we cannot determine that, it is the result of the action, we can see what was the motivation. Hence, such masters like Chogyam Trungpa, who was a great teacher but with a terrible reputation of being an alcoholic and a womaniser, manage to pull together Shambala. For someone like the Dalai Lama, who is immaculate for everything except his ban on Dorje Shugden, that has managed to get China to spread Dorje Shugden practice and in a strange way, spurt the growth of New Kadampa Tradition and other Dorje Shugden organisations the world over. Instead of stamping out Dorje Shugden, the results seem to point towards spreading it. That's how I see it from the facts that is presented here and on the news.
Hello Big Uncle & others, thank you for your input.
Firstly, I have to admit that after reading so many contradictory things from Lama Zopa, I don't pay much attention anymore to things I read about things he's said regarding the Protector, the Dalai Lama, or the ban, the introduction to a new anti-Shugden book being the final straw for me. I certainly don't mean disrespect, but there are too many contradictions to know what to believe so I just steer clear. His other Dharma teachings are wonderful!
Secondly, I do not agree with the view that Dorje Shugden practice is now spreading throughout the world due to the ban. Consider the following - There are a few new monasteries and we have all this great knowledge about his history, but if you compare the number of new monasteries to the number of monasteries and Centers that have lost the practice, there is simply no comparison. The reality is, if the ban never happened, there would be far more places practicing Dorje Shugden. As I said before, due to the power of the blessings of the Ganden lineage and Dorje Shugden, the Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa was doing just fine spreading and proliferating throughout the world. Therefore, I would say the ban has had the opposite effect as you say, for many people have abandoned the practice who also go out of their way to slander and obstruct the human rights and Dharma activities of those who continue the practice. Also, the Ganden lineage has been split and forcibly mixed with other instructions that have not been handed down in this lineage. And, the reputation of various Gelug organizations, Centers, and practitioners has become tarnished and complicated.
Thirdly, the meaning of why exactly Mahasiddha Tilopa was delighted by Pandit Naropa is uncertain, and anyhow, this was a very individual situation. Maybe after chilling our around the fire afterwards, Je Tilopa said 'ya know, it was really inappropriate to steal so try not to do that in the future even if I tell you.' It was difficult to record every little conversation back then. I get your point, but we are talking about human conventions being ignored on a massive scale over a very prolonged period of time. In that light, whether the Dalai Lama is a Buddha or a sentient being is nearly beside the point. You see, until we accomplish Outer Pure Dakini Land, we still perceive and conceive (mostly) ourselves to inhabit an ordinary human realm, and in that realm there are conventions that the majority of humans live by. Sure Dondrub, we need to purify the negative karma, good point, and the appearance of suffering and the ban is ordinary appearance and conception, but, as I said, until we accomplish deep stability in Generation Stage and Completion Stage of Highest Yoga Tantra, we still inhabit this human world and need to respect its boundaries and conventions to an extent. It seems to me that people are always coming up with ways to be ok with the Dalai Lama's actions, and I understand why some people would need to do this. Whether or not he is a Buddha, with respect to this ban and all the damage its caused, it is wrong.
Vajratruth, there are many problems with people from various traditions that support the Dalai Lama. Examples are slandering a teacher, Center, or tradition so that they will not be able to use a venue or retreat facility. Theft of fliers so that people will not find out about an event. Slander in the media to cause disruption to a Dharma event. Protesting outside Centers on the sidewalk to prevent people from going. Doing "Buddhist" rituals to cause disruption and even kill people. These things definitely happen, and I've been told things by many people from various traditions in confidence because they didn't know I am best friends with Dorje Shugden. As you can see from this last mention, the ban has made it very awkward to make harmonious connections with Buddhists in general because as soon as they find out you practice Dorje Shugden, their bodies and minds contort with non-virtue. Just think how much worse their reaction would be if they found out I actually am Dorje Shugden. Their face would bug out like "Large Marge" in Peewees Big Adventure! hahahaha.
The reason Heruka and Vajrayogini's blessings increase as times become more degenerate is due to how Ishvara and his retinue were subdued at the time of the Chakrasamvara Tantra's appearance. So, as the activities of Ishvara increase, the blessings of the Yidam's also increase because of their special relationship. That is one of the reasons why for some practitioners (those who actually train deeply and consistently) it is sometimes said we are experiencing a golden age. From the point of view of how far the teachings have spread it is also a Golden Age.
However, from the point of view of predictions, things do not look so hot for the not too distant future. We know Buddha's prediction about the length of life of his teachings and that it will be destroyed from the inside, and Ngulchu Dharmabhadra's prediction that the time has been cut in half. We know the prediction that Tantra will become very popular just before the teachings are extinguished. We also know that this is the Kali Yuga, so we can see many internal and external things rapidly degenerating in our world, and that it is increasingly difficult for people to gain deep realizations such as tranquil abiding, actual bodhichitta, mastery of generation and completion stage, permanent liberation etc. Compare how many have high realizations to how many had them in the past and how easy it was for them to do so. And, we know that the Mara's activities are very intertwined with this degeneration.
So, when we look at the circumstances surrounding this ban, the Karmapa controversy, and other things within the international Buddhist community that bring the 3 Jewels into disrepute and cause great degeneration of harmony and the ability to generate faith - the mother of all realizations, it is not unreasonable to consider how the Mara's are doing an excellent job bringing the Buddhadharma quickly to the finish line. In Harry Potter and the Half-blood Prince, Professor Dumbeldore begins a year at Hogwart's by speaking about dark forces attempting to penetrate the walls of Hogwart's, but that in the end "there greatest weapon is YOU". Through possession, through mixing with the delusions of living beings, through coordinating circumstances by various means, the mara's assist us in actions that break moral discipline and defame the teachings.
The storm has hit, and the only shelter is to practice hard. Pabonkha Rinpoche said - "Now is the time to steel your will". May the increase of Mara increase your realizations!
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Dear lineageholder and psylotripitaka,
You may not agree with what I believe. Its ok. No need to get all riled up for it. I understand the persecution people from NKT experience as I have often heard about it and that's why I chose not to be engage in any organisations. Part of why I believe the way I believe is because of what Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche had explained in his text as well.
Page 125 of Music Delighting The Ocean of Protectors
But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future.
You may or may not believe in Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice or you may interpret it differently. That's ok too. But you cannot deny that Dorje Shugden is growing despite all the persecution. I am very sure NKT is one of the biggest if not the biggest Buddhist Organisation in the world. It is definitely the blessings of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and students with samaya that makes it grow all over the world. However, I also think that the ban had a hand in making NKT stronger.
This is not to mention the growth of Dorje Shugden practice in China. Putting Trijang Rinpoche's advice and the very obvious growth of Dorje Shugden practice in the world makes me think that perhaps the Dalai Lama may have a different intention with the ban. It's not easy to accept and I understand that considering all the hurt and harm, which I cannot deny as well. So, at this point, I have to stick with Trijang Rinpoche's advice for now and rather not saying anything bad about the Dalai Lama and not supporting his ban either as a Dorje Shugden practitioner.
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Hi Big Uncle,
I don't feel riled up, was just responding with a different view. I agree with Trijang Dorjechang as well, and do not feel that I have been speaking badly about the Dalai Lama, I have been speaking frankly with good intention about the predicament and the Dalai Lama's influence in it. As you know, in terms of taking action to pacify the ban and its negatives side effects, we cannot ignore the stark contrast between clear and extensive logical reasoning, and the many contradictions of the anti-Shugden party in both word and action. This is not speaking badly, it is speaking candidly about the facts that are appearing to the people in this world. There are so many example, but let's take Lama Zopa's new introduction as an example. Besides the plain contradiction that he speaks extensively about Guru devotion and the Guru not making mistakes yet stating that Je Pabonkhapa & Trijang Rinpoche made mistakes, how can he say the Dalai doesn't make mistakes when the 5th Dalai Lama says in his own autobiography that he made a mistake. I must say that when Masters write things like this, from a practical point of view, you have to say 'huh'? Hence the recent thread on "...which is it?"
The ban has certainly been a contributing factor in certain developments, I agree. I was just making the point that the overall spread of Je Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden's lineage is mainly to do with their blessings and would have increased anyways without any sort of ban.
Probably the thing I feel the most saddened by is that many practitioners have lost their faith and abandoned Dharma altogether. I realize they didn't have to abandon it completely, but the fact is, the whole situation was too much for them to bear. Now, our friend Ensapa here thinks this is the skillful means of the Dalai Lama separating the wheat from the chaff, but I don't agree. Buddha taught according to the capacity, inclinations, and personal circumstances of the people, and it is very important that we strive to follow that example because everyone has different karma. It takes alot of consistent effort in correct meditation to get our realizations to go from a somewhat shaky belief to a strong enough force in the mind to oppose hindrances. This is one reason I felt like sharing various ways to look at this situation, because I have suffered and watched many others suffer and some of the things I've shared in this thread have grown out of my own experience of working with the situation. In this thread I was attempting to show how tricky it can be in the mind when we are relating to appearances, and to check very precisely what our view is at different times. Obviously there's alot at stake, as Trijang Rinpoche points out, but ultimately it does boil down to 'applying meditation to whatever circumstances we meet'. If our virtuous minds are not increasing through this dialogue, through being confronted by the ban and it's side-effects, we are definitely not going in the right direction.
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Actually, I don't think it's really all that possible to speculate how much more or less the practice of Dorje Shugden would have grown IF this hadn't happened or IF that had happened etc etc. At our level, without clairvoyance or any ability to see into the future, there is no way for us to tell what would occur if this or that course had been taken.
This isn't to say that we allow things to just happen without doing anything but like Psylo has been saying, it's important to remember at all times if our virtue is increasing or decreasing. There have been many ways of reacting to this ban, some of which we personally may not agree with. I think most important is to think if our actions in reaction to the ban creates more negativity or if it inadvertently disturbs more people's minds (for example, might it cause them to go further away from their teachers? have doubt in the Dharma? Think wrongly of Buddhism?).
There will always be obstacles to our practice, whatever that practice may be and whether on an inward or outer level. If it wasn't this ban, the collective karma of practitioners, or even our own individual collected karma of countless lifetimes would manifest in a different way to disturb us equally. Think about it - if we were already freed from samsara, we wouldn't have any obstacle at all; we just wouldn't have the karma for this. This is how so many of the high lamas maintain their practice of Dorje Shugden but stay peaceful about the situation. It is, at the end of the day, between us and our lamas; us and the Three Jewels; us and Dorje Shugden. If we can maintain that samaya at all times, then whatever we do will automatically yield that same virtuous result that Psylo has mentioned a few times; and it would cause the least damage to others in the long term.
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Ensapa, I see what you mean, so you believe that if the human aspect of the Guru kills someone for example, that this action is ok because it is for a higher purpose; that if they command us to kill others we should do it without question because they have a higher purpose?
Obviously it is within context. If you get a Guru that manifests cult like activity, then obviously, questioning is needed but even before that one should examine the Guru before taking the Guru as the Guru. If we get a Guru that asks us to do things that are beyond our cultural, moral and conventional context it is really our fault for not examining beforehand.
We can still confront sentient beings about their wrong actions without losing respect for them, indeed it is because we love and respect them that we try to correct them. Also, just practically speaking, the members of Dorje Shugden society have done a good job speaking up without being rude, although there are a couple exceptions where it was necessary for them to be more direct.
Ditto!
Of course Ashvagosha's compilation of what is said in the Tantras isn't a lie, but we need to reflect on the Gurus actions by holding them up to the mirror of Dharma. If their actions are revealing the path of abandonment, it is not inappropriate to engage them in dialogue about their actions. The particular actions related to the ban are especially very damaging from the pov of Dharma and the pov of the society the Gurus human aspect is operating in. Also, the Gurus teach that some aspects of the 50 verses are cultural and we can adjust according to context. The Gelong vows are similarly flexible.
The ban was meant to provoke questions but nobody questioned the Dalai Lama. So in that context, perhaps the Dalai Lama has tried to intensify the ban hoping that there would be questions, but there was none so now he does not want to condemn Dorje Shugden anymore
As for the advisement to respect the Dalai Lama, consider that there are different meanings of 'respect'. Respecting the Dharma activities of a teacher. Being respectful when communicating with others. Respecting the Holy inner and secret aspect of the Guru. Respecting the Buddhanature of living beings. Respecting sentient beings ' freedom and happiness. Be respectful in communicating your views so the world will see a peaceful example that accords with the Dharma. Be respectful because otherwise you will lose your status, funding, and other kinds if support. Be respectful or your human rights will be abused.
That is the deeper meaning of "respect" that we keep referring to. Again, thank you for your insight.
Just think of what would have happened to the FPMT if Lama Zopa decided they would be loyal to the lineage Gurus and keep relying on the Protector. Respect has many meanings depending on context.
Outwardly it would be disastrous for them, but inwardly i dont think they have given up at all.
As for Gurus beating students to help them purify, in today's society, such things are best kept private between Guru and disciple. And if such actions are going to have the opposite effect, it is not appropriate to do it. That is why Marpa Lotsawa told Jetsun Milarepa not to treat his own students as he had done to Milarepa.
This cannot be applied to today's society anymore..again its within context
Regardless of the view we take, it is outrageous how damaging the ban has been. When we act in contradiction to the Dharma, we are taught to be ashamed of our actions and to take immediate corrective actions. If the Gurus act in accordance with the Dharma, especially in such a broad reaching way as this ban, what is that telling students and the world about the efficacy of the teachings. If I were a teacher that perpetuated the abuses, I would either lift the ban and apologize, or out of respect for the 3 Jewels and world society, I would step down as a teacher rather than perpetuate negativity.
the ban is outrageous, and there has been much damage created by the ban and nobody can deny that, but one has to remember that the Dalai Lama is not an ordinary Lama.
Excellent points as always, psylotripitaka, it is always refreshing and nice to see your postings as it gives insight to so many things.
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Hi Ensapa, the comments about the ban being to provoke questions but nobody questioning the Dalai Lama, who wrote that?
Certainly the Dalai Lama has been questioned by many people regarding the ban, he just chose to ignore them.
As for your logic about examining the Guru beforehand, your thoughts are inconsistent here. I'm sure many people examined the Dalai Lama (I know some) beforehand, yet now look at the situation.
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Hi Ensapa, the comments about the ban being to provoke questions but nobody questioning the Dalai Lama, who wrote that?
Certainly the Dalai Lama has been questioned by many people regarding the ban, he just chose to ignore them.
As for your logic about examining the Guru beforehand, your thoughts are inconsistent here. I'm sure many people examined the Dalai Lama (I know some) beforehand, yet now look at the situation.
I was referring to his followers, actually, the hardcore ones, the CTA, the cabinets, his famous students, robert thurman etc. he has chosen to ignore many questions actually, there were many open letters to him by the Dorje Shugden charitable society, by Serkong Tritul's Dromtung Rinpoche and of course by Kundeling Rinpoche, but the point is nobody in his circle ever questioned him although he has repeatedly asked them to question even his advice.
I dont see that as inconsistent, because although to us the Dalai Lama has done a lot of damage, it could be that to those who have an affinity with the Dalai Lama his actions are right. Damage or not, it is relative according to one's perception. I do understand why we symphatize with other practitioners, but we have to not be biased at the same time.
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In short, although we may not understand His Holiness the Dalai Lama's intention, but I don't think that it means His Holiness is wrong. I am a Dorje Shugden practitioner but I still would like to look at His Holiness's good sides. The things stated by Chokyi Dorje are in fact still happening but if we were to look at it from a different perspective, this is how much karma that needs to be purified in order to lift the ban so that the next generations will not have issues or problems doing Dorje Shugden's practise. This is how compassionate His Holiness the Dalai Lama is, I am sorry that if you do not agree with me but this is what I think. After all, this is a public platform opened for discussion. :)