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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmaDefender on January 29, 2013, 02:28:59 PM

Title: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: DharmaDefender on January 29, 2013, 02:28:59 PM
Oh dear...

From: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/are-you-friends-with-a-shugden-practitioner/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/are-you-friends-with-a-shugden-practitioner/)

Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/LingTrisur-0.jpg)

This unusual, rare photo of H.E. Ling Rinpoche and H.H. 101ST Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal recently came into the hands of DorjeShugden.com. It has sparked our interest of course, as any images of high lamas do. This photo is a little more special though for it’s not just a picture about two lamas. Of greater interest is their close association in the picture and what it can signify for thousands of Dorje Shugden practitioners.

But first, a little background of these two lamas:


H.H. the 101st Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal Rinpoche

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Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal began his monastic education in Gaden Shartse Monastery, rising in his studies to become the ‘highest lama in the land’, the 101st Gaden Tripa, representing Lama Tsongkhapa here on earth. From the beginning, His Holiness proved his academic prowess when he attained first place in the Geshe Lharam examinations, whereupon he was conferred the highest Geshe qualification. He has also received extensive training in both fields of sutra and tantra.

His Holiness went on to serve as abbot of Gyuto Tantric College and Gaden Shartse Monastery, and was even personally selected by H.H. the Dalai Lama to represent Buddhism in international inter-faith meetings organised by other religious authorities, such as the Pope. His Holiness was then later bestowed the honorary rank of Sharpa Choeje (the second highest rank within the Gelugpa school, along with the Jangtse Choeje) in 1995, before finally being appointed as the 101st Gaden Tripa in 2003.

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His Holiness teaching at a packed auditorium in Taiwan

In January 2010, H.H. Gaden Trisur sent shock waves through Tibetan Buddhist community when, upon retiring from his term of service as Gaden Tripa, he left Gaden Monastery to join Shar Gaden (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=2991), a monastery formed specifically by monks who wished to continue their practice of Dorje Shugden but were being forced to stop by the Dalai Lama. To this day, Gaden Trisur continues to practice peacefully, maintain strong connections with other Shugden lamas around the world and is also starting to create friendships with the Chinese (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=8649), to bring Dharma back to the people within Tibet and China.

On top of this, Gaden Trisur has also brought Dharma to the West, having established a Dharma center on the outskirts of Paris, where he continues to teach. He also travels broadly, bringing the teachings to practitioners in France, Spain, Switzerland, Italy, America, China, and Singapore.

More information can be found below about His Holiness and especially his unwavering devotion to Dorje Shugden.


His Holiness the 7th Ling Rinpoche

This young 7th incarnation of Ling Rinpoche comes from an incredible and impressive incarnation lineage which can be traced back to ancient India and Tibet, including saints, kings of India, scholars, highly attained yogis and practitioners. Of the 6 previous incarnations of Ling Rinpoche, 5 were tutors to several incarnations of Dalai Lamas, maintaining a very close teacher-student disciple across many lifetimes.

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/LingTrisur-2.jpg)

The immediate previous incarnation, the 6th Ling Rinpoche, was also again appointed as Tsenshab (debate partner) and then, senior Yongzin (tutor) to His Holiness the current 14th Dalai Lama. He also served as Abbot to Gyuto Tantric College and Sharpa Choeje, the second highest rank within the Gelugpa lineage. Finally, in 1965, he ascended to the highest rank of the Gelugpas, as the 97th Gaden Tripa, the Gaden throne-holder representing Lama Tsongkhapa.

Born in 1985 in India, the current incarnation is a part of the next generation of great Tulkus who have emerged after the exodus from Tibet in the late 1950s. Once again, he has shown immense devotion and focus in his studies as well as begun to turn the wheel of Dharma to practitioners around the world in South Korea, France and India. He currently resides in Drepung Loseling Monastery where he is focusing entirely on studying and acquiring a mastery of the teachings, to emulate the great deeds and teachings of his many exalted predecessors.

More information can be found below about His Holiness Ling Rinpoche.


Friends / Enemies

In recent decades, following the Dalai Lama’s ban on the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden, the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) has constantly said that Dorje Shugden practitioners must be avoided and 100% segregated from mainstream Tibetan community. Since this time, Shugden practitioners have not been permitted to participate in any common events or activities, nor been permitted access to any of the basic welfare and rights accorded to other Tibetan citizens. Because of this, family members have been estranged from each other; Gurus and disciples have been separated; monks and high Lamas cannot associate with each other even if they have studied and practiced together all their lives; monasteries have had to split into two.

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/LingTrisur-3.jpg)
The Dalai Lama and H.H. the 10st Gaden Trisur Rinpoche had long enjoyed a good relationship… until the ban on Dorje Shugden was decreed

However, H.H. Gaden Trisur, the former supreme head of the Gelugpa school chose not to give up the practice of Dorje Shugden. Proudly, he announced his loyalty to the practice and left the ‘mainstream’ Gaden Monastery to join Shar Gaden Monastery, which was established precisely because 700 monks there wished to continue their Shugden practice. He made an extremely bold statement in doing this for it showed the world clearly that the patriarch of the yellow hat lineage, the lama who holds a position even higher than the Dalai Lama within the Gelugpa lineage, practices Dorje Shugden and has not given up.

However, this unique picture of Gaden Trisur Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche tells a different story: while H.H. the 101st Gaden Trisur Rinpoche is a known Dorje Shugden practitioner, Ling Rinpoche, is not. The latter, who still resides in Drepung Monastery, is a part of the ‘mainstream’ community which cannot associate with Shugden devotees. This photograph of him with Gaden Trisur Rinpoche is a very unusual one showing an association which would not be permitted in any way today.

We acknowledge that this photograph may have been taken before the ban on Dorje Shugden, but there are many questions that still arise from their close and affectionate friendship here. First of all, we can see here that the Gaden Tripa was still accorded much respect before he left to Shar Gaden and regarded as the ‘highest lama in the land’. For Ling Rinpoche to be pictured with him suggests that even the incarnation of the Dalai Lama’s senior tutor held him in very high regard. His stance, slightly bowed in reverence next to the then Gaden Tripa, reflects this clearly.

So we ask: why is it that the Gaden Tripa is regarded so highly and seen to be such a holy monk before, but is then so quickly disregarded when he declares his decision to continue his practice? Why is it that he is accorded such respect just a few years ago but has to be so obviously segregated from the community now? Are all his attainments, his knowledge, his service to the Dharma erased and denied now just because of one protector practice?

If we believe that Ling Rinpoche is the incarnation of a highly attained being and comes from such a realized incarnation lineage, then we must also believe that he will be able to know if someone is engaged in harmful, negative practices and not a good practitioner. Why is it that he would openly associate with Gaden Trisur in one instance but then suddenly have to boycott him in the next? Would an incarnation as high as Ling Rinpoche be so fickle and undecided over something as crucial as someone’s Dharma practice? It might be useful to note too that the previous 6th Ling Rinpoche had even written a prayer requesting the activity of enlightened protectors (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=24034), which included Dorje Shugden – a clear sign that he too had faith in this Dharmapala as an enlightened being. How is it possible that an enlightened being can have a certain view of a deity at one time and then change to have a completely opposite view at another? 

Finally, at the heart of the matter lies the fact that every Gaden Tripa is formally ‘endorsed’ by the Dalai Lama and supported by the abbots of all the Gelug monasteries (since this is the institution that each Gaden Tripa arises from). How is it possible that the Dalai Lama – who we believe to be Chenrezig – would approve of someone as the head of his own lineage if he was such a bad and harmful practitioner? Now that Gaden Trisur openly ‘admits’ that he is still praying to Dorje Shugden and stoically refuses to abide by the Dalai Lama’s directives, does it mean that the Dalai Lama, his government and all the abbots under him were wrong in their initial approval of him? Should they go back on their word?


If It’s Good Enough for Gaden Tri...

The position of the Gaden Tripa is not an easy one to come by. Every Gelug practitioner understands the vigorous process that one has to go through to even be considered for this supremely respected position. Every Gaden Tripa is not only academically astute in the Dharma teachings but would have also had a lifetime of experience in serving the Dharma. He is a known scholar, devoted yogi and prolific writer. He would have profound knowledge of the lineage’s many practices and teachings, and the ability to discern, through irrefutable logic, the validity of every practice.

(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/LingTrisur-4.jpg)
H.H. Gaden Trisur Rinpoche proudly maintains friendships other Dorje Shugden practitioners such as Lama Jampa Ngodup Rinpoche (left)

After so many decades of practice, teaching and service to the Sangha, it would be entirely safe for us to assume that His Holiness the 101st Gaden Trisur has a sound understanding of all the main practices of the Gelug lineage. So if this patriarch of the Gelug school chooses to practice Dorje Shugden and recognizes him as a fully enlightened Being, then what doubt should we have, as ordinary practitioners?

There is no way we are as learned or practiced as His Holiness right now; so if we wish to criticize the validity of a practice like Dorje Shugden, consider for a moment how much less qualified we are than a master like Gaden Trisur to question a practice he has chosen and maintained for a lifetime.


Further reading about the Gaden Tripas and H.H. 101st Gaden Trisur Rinpoche:

A History of the Gaden Tripas (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=2716)
A Tribute to His Holiness the 101st Gaden Tripa (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=12350)
Interview with His Holiness the 101st Gaden Tripa Lungrik Namgyal (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=12258)
A Biography of His Holiness the 101st Gaden Tripa (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=6832)
H.H. Gaden Trisur Rinpoche Defects to the Dorje Shugden Camp (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=2991)
H.H. Gaden Tripa’s Dedication to Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=241)


Further reading about H.H. Ling Rinpoche

A Tribute to His Holiness Ling Rinpoche (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=13361)
A Prayer to Dharma Protectors (including Dorje Shugden), composed by the previous 6th Ling Rinpoche (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=24034)
A Biography of the Ling Rinpoche Incarnation Lineage (from Drepung Loseling’s website) (http://www.loselingmonastery.org/index.php?id=52&type=p)
A Biography of the 6th Ling Rinpoche (from FPMT’s archives) (http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=author&subsect=bio&id=39)
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: DharmaDefender on January 30, 2013, 07:18:52 AM
Brilliant article! I put it up because Im sick and tired of the CTAs hypocrisy, and the hypocrisy of those monks who will do anything to get on HH Dalai Lamas good side.

I DO understand that living in India can be like a pressure cooker, and you havent really got a choice except to fall in line. Either you appear to give it up and continue to have a roof over your head, or you dont give it up and suffer physically and live in fear.

And I DO understand that people living abroad have it easier - Trijang Rinpoche, Gonsar Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, etc can afford to be more vocal because they dont live under the watchful eye and direct influence of the CTA.

But speak the truth even if your voice shakes. How can you sleep at night under a roof paid for by a Shugden practitioner, or go to a hospital to get treatment that was funded by a Shugden practitioner, and not have a conscience about it???

Its just something to think about. Do yall have a Shugden practitioner on your Facebook friends list? Is the bloke you buy your vegetables from secretly practising Dorje Shugden? How about the person who served you coffee at the shop? And if you find out your donor is a secret practitioner, what are you going to do? Reject his money? Give him back the things he previously gave to you? Plenty of thoughts to chew on...
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: honeydakini on January 30, 2013, 10:58:56 AM
oh I think this is brilliant. What a cheeky title! I'm sure the Tibetan government will like to hear this one!

Chuckles aside though, I find it extremely sad that so many friendships and guru-disciple relationships are now broken simply because of ban. The lack of logic astounds me: that someone could be a wonderfully attained and enlightened master before the ban, but suddenly be demonised and ostracised after the ban. How does someone suddenly become bad because of an external ban that is imposed? It doesn't make any sense. They are still the same people, still the same practitioner, still wanting to achieve the same spiritual goals as anyone else.

I have just heard from a friend about an old Geshe who was previously from Jangtse - Geshe Tsultrim (I'm sorry I wasn't able to catch his full name). He stood by the practice of Dorje Shugden firmly and because of that was asked to leave the monastery. This didn't just affect him. It is said that about 80% of Gaden Jangtse monks would have received teachings from him and consider him their Guru. He was famous for his constant teachings, to all levels and ages of monks in the monastery. But suddenly, he is forced to leave and his students might never get to see him again.

How does one's teacher suddenly become "bad" and you are not permitted to see him anymore? And how does one teacher decide how 'pure' and valid another teacher is? I don't mean this with any disrespect by why SHOULD I listen to the Dalai Lama, especially if he's not my teacher. Why SHOULD I have to cut off contact with my root guru just because the Dalai Lama said so, when I have absolutely no connection with him? Why should my friendships with practitioners (Shugdenpas or not) be determined by someone whose spiritual radar does not even include me?

So yes, I'd be proud to say that I AM friends with a Shugden practitioner. Many, in fact. And whether or not I am a shugden practitioner also is besides the point. I am a Buddhist practitioner and I have been taught kindness and logic. It is clearly not logical to un-friend someone just because of their religious choices.
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: Ensapa on January 31, 2013, 11:40:20 AM
This is such an amazing article, especially for us Gelugs to read and share with everyone. CTA's PR machine has painted a nice picture, showing the Dalai Lama as the overlord of the Gelugpas and the literal pope of Tibetan Buddhism. It helps shed light to the role of the Ganden Tripa, the representative of Lama Tsongkhapa on earth which the CTA has long shoved aside and hid in one corner and ironically, they consider themselves to be Gelugpas. Shoudnt they be more respectful towards someone of such high importance as well? this does not make sense at all as to why would the CTA want to deny or destroy their lineage. But then again, they have a history of banning tulkus, suppressing other schools that dont agree to them and banning Dorje Shugden in the most unbuddhistic way possible so well...whats new? CTA corrupting Buddhism isnt new news.
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: beggar on January 31, 2013, 12:52:34 PM
This is very good, and something that must be read by anyone who knows even remotely about the ban. It's important to understand some of the politics within this and the hierarchies within the schools of Buddhism. We need to understand, as Ensapa has pointed out that, the CTA 'PR machine' has painted a picture of the Dalai Lama as the pope of Tibetan Buddhism when this is not actually the case at all, and that the hierarchies within Tibetan Buddhist lineages are a lot more complex than this, involving many other important positions.

At the heart of this ban is this most urgent question: what does the Gaden Tripa have to say about Dorje Shugden? For really, he's the only one we need to listen to within the Gelug school, seeing as he is the head of our lineage!

I am surprised that this hasn't been more vocally expressed and brought to the attention of the Dalai Lama and his government. For the Dalai Lama to have issued the ban against Dorje Shugden was not just about overriding the Gaden Tripa (which was H.H. 101st Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal at the time) but also to completely reject this whole position. Why have a Gaden Tripa if his opinion and thought on a practice as central as this one isn't sought at any stage?

And further, after all this, after he is overridden and has no say at all in deciding upon this matter, he is also now ostracised by his own community and 'demonised' as engaging in a wrong, harmful practice. People cannot be friends with him or have any associations with him in any way - how does this make sense??

And what does this say for the next (current) Gaden Tripa and his authority within the Gelug school? Because his opinion is still not being sought on the issue of Dorje Shugden and he would surely still be expected to operate within these same parameters (i.e if he doesn't give up the practice, he too would be subject to the same discrimination, ostracism and asked to step down from the very position that he has been elected into to make decisions about such issues.

Does this make any sense to any of you? I don't think so!
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: Q on January 31, 2013, 01:51:34 PM
Does this mean being friends with a Shugden practitioner is no longer a stigma? lol

Yeah, there were times when being seen with a Shugden practitioner is such a big deal that you'd probably be stoned to death... such violence almost un-Buddhist. So it really is a big deal to see Ling Rinpoche so close to H.H. 101ST Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal. I do not believe such closeness will end just because HH has came out as a DS practitioner.

Even HHDL, cannot deny the closeness He has for Trijang Rinpoche, and the proof of that is when HHDL shed tears when HH speak of His Guru, Trijang Rinpoche... Doesn't that show a bond that is even closer than just being physically close? I'm sure all Tibetan Buddhists understand this feeling, not everyone is close physically to their Gurus, but close at heart. So if the CTA punishes those being close physically to Shugden practitioners, what about the ones that hold them close to their heart? Again this shows how incapable the CTA is that they can't even follow through with a single rule they come up with... what a joke.

HH Lungrik Namgyal is certainly an Enlightened master... and the fact that He told the whole world that He is a Shugden practitioner should be a clear indication that Dorje Shugden is a good practice. After all, if the Ex-Gaden Trisur, one that hold a higher position than HHDL himself tells us Dorje Shugden is good, what is there left to doubt about?
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: Positive Change on January 31, 2013, 03:45:27 PM
Brilliant article! I put it up because Im sick and tired of the CTAs hypocrisy, and the hypocrisy of those monks who will do anything to get on HH Dalai Lamas good side.

I DO understand that living in India can be like a pressure cooker, and you havent really got a choice except to fall in line. Either you appear to give it up and continue to have a roof over your head, or you dont give it up and suffer physically and live in fear.

And I DO understand that people living abroad have it easier - Trijang Rinpoche, Gonsar Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, etc can afford to be more vocal because they dont live under the watchful eye and direct influence of the CTA.

But speak the truth even if your voice shakes. How can you sleep at night under a roof paid for by a Shugden practitioner, or go to a hospital to get treatment that was funded by a Shugden practitioner, and not have a conscience about it???

Its just something to think about. Do yall have a Shugden practitioner on your Facebook friends list? Is the bloke you buy your vegetables from secretly practising Dorje Shugden? How about the person who served you coffee at the shop? And if you find out your donor is a secret practitioner, what are you going to do? Reject his money? Give him back the things he previously gave to you? Plenty of thoughts to chew on...


It's so true what you said here. It is much "easier" to live with the ban when abroad. It is not so in your face! However, that said, it is also not easy to see others suffer too and not being able to do much apart from behind the scenes so to speak.

The damaging tentacles of the ban has far reaching consequences too... in that some personal friendships, political relationships, guru-disciple relationship have all come undone because of this tight grip. The fact that the sangha is divided in itself is creating such negative publicity, not to mention karma... all because our rightful choice to practice has been taken away from us.

Is there a light at the end of this tunnel? These articles below gives us some hope, some positive outcome from this ban:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/trijang-rinpoche-conferred-dorje-shugden-initiation-in-mongolia-2011/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/trijang-rinpoche-conferred-dorje-shugden-initiation-in-mongolia-2011/)

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/the-first-lama-that-china-sent-abroad/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/the-first-lama-that-china-sent-abroad/)

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/how-five-powerful-lamas-are-changing-the-world/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/how-five-powerful-lamas-are-changing-the-world/)
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: dsiluvu on February 01, 2013, 07:53:57 PM
Quote
I DO understand that living in India can be like a pressure cooker, and you havent really got a choice except to fall in line. Either you appear to give it up and continue to have a roof over your head, or you dont give it up and suffer physically and live in fear.

And I DO understand that people living abroad have it easier - Trijang Rinpoche, Gonsar Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, etc can afford to be more vocal because they dont live under the watchful eye and direct influence of the CTA.


All the more reasons why we MUST get the BAN LIFTED!!!

To be really honest I did not join Buddhism to get involve with politics and I believe in Dorje Shugden not just because my Guru said it will benefit me but because I have experienced his true compassionate wisdom nature that unlike any other have shown me through my own personal experience and I cannot believe monks and abbots are being so are forced to swear not to just give up their practice but also give up their love ones and family. That is just way toooooo much!

It is not only cruel, unethical but against any democratic freedom and law. It is like biting the very hands that feeds you, it is like killing one's own mother that gave you life! How can all this be seen, be thought as good by the very people who preach peace, compassion, kindness and wanting freedom? And I wonder how can sagha members have no conscious about this? The Buddha himself protested against the caste system which is a huge discrimination during His time, how is this any different?   

How can I, we just sit around going our marry way pretending everything bright and shinny when my Dharma brothers and sisters are suffering from such a horrible discrimination. If we do not do anything about it, we are just as good as the ones inflicting this pain. Might as well give back the Bodhisattva vows!

No democratic country in this 21st century has ever persecuted people due to their religious differences except Tibet. What a shame what a shame! The destruction of Buddhism does not come from the outside but from within the source itself. The lineage will be lost and or perverted and it is happening due to this stupid ban. The only way for Buddhism and Je Tsongkhapa's teachings to flourish is that the Shugden Lamas go out there to spread it, which the are and I rejoice in that! This gives hope and encouragement like the article below...

The Opening of a New Dorje Shugden Monastery
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/the-opening-of-a-new-dorje-shugden-monastery/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/the-opening-of-a-new-dorje-shugden-monastery/)
   
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: Ensapa on February 02, 2013, 03:19:12 AM
In reality, the only person that can ban Dorje Shugden is Ganden Tripa. Why? because he is representative of Lama Tsongkhapa on earth. He is the one that has the final say on what the Gelugs can or cannot do, but why now it has shifted to the Dalai Lama? For quite a number of years, the Ganden Tripas have been suppressed or was hidden by the CTA, to the point that many Buddhists dont even know that it exists. Is that not a shame? I wonder what else would happen and how else the CTA will corrupt Buddhism just to fullfil their political agendas. After all, they have banned lamas and entire schools that did not agree with them or were more successful than them. Nothing is holy for them.
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: Karla on February 02, 2013, 04:31:37 PM
You make such a big deal out of nothing. This photo was taken so long ago that it's not even relevant anymore. You are making mountains out of molehills. The Dalai Lama has already stopped taking about Dorje Shugden - YOU SAID SO YOURSELF in your own recent articles. So if he has stopped talking about it, then why do you all keep going on about it? Why do you draw even more attention to this so-called ban when actually nobody really cares and nobody is talking about it anymore?

Look, you keep celebrating how great some lamas are and how much they are doing to make Dorje Shugden's practice grow. I agree that's good! I always rejoice to see news about new monasteries and lamas teachings and growing. So why do you have to keep talking about the politics, and drawing attention to what the Dalai Lama says all the time? At least those lamas just get on with it and do what they have to do to teach and preserve the lineage. Nobody is talking about the ban and the politics. Only you are.
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: vajratruth on February 02, 2013, 05:27:09 PM
You make such a big deal out of nothing. This photo was taken so long ago that it's not even relevant anymore. You are making mountains out of molehills. The Dalai Lama has already stopped taking about Dorje Shugden - YOU SAID SO YOURSELF in your own recent articles. So if he has stopped talking about it, then why do you all keep going on about it? Why do you draw even more attention to this so-called ban when actually nobody really cares and nobody is talking about it anymore?

Look, you keep celebrating how great some lamas are and how much they are doing to make Dorje Shugden's practice grow. I agree that's good! I always rejoice to see news about new monasteries and lamas teachings and growing. So why do you have to keep talking about the politics, and drawing attention to what the Dalai Lama says all the time? At least those lamas just get on with it and do what they have to do to teach and preserve the lineage. Nobody is talking about the ban and the politics. Only you are.

Karla,

That is because the effects of the ban is still being felt by those who cannot speak for themselves and so long as the ban is in place, those who care enough will keep talking about it. And why not? In fact, you should write to the CTA and ask why they have not officially removed the ban seeing that no one seems to be interested in it any more. Today, as before walls separate those who practice Dorje Shugden and those who do not. Shugden lamas are being watched and Shugden practitioners are still being thought of as traitors.

As to why no one is talking about the ban and the politics of the ban, it is because a site such as this exist to counter the negative propaganda and all the lies that have been told about a enlightened Buddhist deity. If anyone were to make a wrong claim as they used to, there is now dorjeshugde.com to refer to with facts supported by proof and evidence. Of course they are less likely to make disparaging remarks. Who wants to be caught out by the truth? Go to phayul.com and tibet.net the site of the CTA and see all the deluded statements that are being made there. The CTA is claiming to be a democracy and accusing China of religious persecutions. As you must be aware, the CTA themselves have undemocratically banned a religious practice. Should the truth not be told? Shouldn't you write to them and ask why they make such claims while upholding a serious breach against basic human rights?

As for pictures old or new, they are hardcore evidence of how damaging the bans has been. if Ling Rinpoche and the Gaden Trisur enjoyed good relationship, do you think it would augur well for Ling Rinpoche to be seen with the Gaden Trisur or Gangchen Rinpoche now? If not, why not? Why can't they be seen together? Because of the unholy and illegal ban of which the damage is still being done. Photos like the ones posted here show that but for the ban, there would have been great harmony within the sangha community instead of schism. Is that not important to highlight so that unity can be re-achieved?

I am glad you enjoyed the news about the achievements of Shuden lamas and I am glad you join in the celebration. Remember, you heard it first here on dorjeshugde.com. That is why people keep talking about it, so that no one forgets that a grave injustice was done and more and more people are waking up to it.

This site stays vigilant of all things Dharma and has become n important source of information for many around the world. The views are are factual and supported by evidence not hearsay and propaganda. To say that no one is talking about the ban anymore and therefore we should stop is like telling the mayor of the city that as soon as the crime rate drops to a certain level, the city should do away with law enforcement officers and the law. Crime is less because of strong law enforcement and critical information getting through. Similarly less nonsense is being said about Dorje Shugden because there is a ready authority on this subject now.

I hope you keep coming back and do continue to give us feedback.
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: dondrup on February 02, 2013, 05:31:26 PM
You make such a big deal out of nothing. This photo was taken so long ago that it's not even relevant anymore. You are making mountains out of molehills. The Dalai Lama has already stopped taking about Dorje Shugden - YOU SAID SO YOURSELF in your own recent articles. So if he has stopped talking about it, then why do you all keep going on about it? Why do you draw even more attention to this so-called ban when actually nobody really cares and nobody is talking about it anymore?

Look, you keep celebrating how great some lamas are and how much they are doing to make Dorje Shugden's practice grow. I agree that's good! I always rejoice to see news about new monasteries and lamas teachings and growing. So why do you have to keep talking about the politics, and drawing attention to what the Dalai Lama says all the time? At least those lamas just get on with it and do what they have to do to teach and preserve the lineage. Nobody is talking about the ban and the politics. Only you are.


Dear Karla,

It is not true that no one cares about the ban on Dorje Shugden!  I care.  The forum members who had contributed here care.  And www.dorjeshugden.com (http://www.dorjeshugden.com) cares.  Many high lamas care.  There are many other unseen practitioners care.  Do you care?

There is a need to draw even more of the World’s attention to the ban on Dorje Shugden.  Even after the ban on Dorje Shugden is finally lifted, we will still talk about the ban on Dorje Shugden.  It is a very significant event in the lineage of Dorje Shugden.  Why is that so?  The ban had caused so much sufferings and inconveniences including deaths!  The ban had divided the community of practitioners, caused great disharmonies and disrepute to the growth of Buddhism in the World.  The ban had created a lot of confusion among practitioners and non-practitioners!  The truth about Dorje Shugden and the ban thereon must be revealed and shared!

Until the ban is finally lifted, we will continue to talk about the ban on Dorje Shugden, CTA, His Holiness Dalai Lama.  Those who had abandoned Dorje Shugden practices ignorantly must be informed and educated continuously until they realized what they had done were wrong.  They must repair their heavily broken samayas and purify their negative karmas while they still can in this life. 

www.dorjeshugden.com (http://www.dorjeshugden.com) is a platform for practitioners to share their views on their minds.  What is shared, discussed and debated here on this forum is seen by many in the world.  These views and discussions provide the food for thought even if the topics of discussion may look silly, ridiculous or relevant to you.  You have a choice to accept or to reject the views presented here.  You don’t have to be affected by them.
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: WisdomBeing on February 02, 2013, 06:01:02 PM
i was just talking to a friend today and saying that if the Dalai Lama passes into clear light (of course we pray not for another 10000 years) and the ban is not lifted but fades, there will still be a lot of criticism from those who support the Dalai Lama and NOT read more into the reasons for the ban and the illogical bases behind it. I believe it will take at least one generation to pass before the ill-effects of the ban fades just a little.

The best outcome for Dorje Shugden practitioners is for the Dalai Lama to lift the ban - though in my limited view i really don't know how he will do it since he has condemned Dorje Shugden to hell and back. Even if he stops condemning Dorje Shugden NOW as he has said he would do (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=3076.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=3076.0)), people will still say that the Dalai Lama condemned it in the past.

So it is my deepest deepest wish that HH Dalai Lama lift the ban so that dignity and respect is restored to this amazing Dharma Protector and he will then be able to quickly step into his role to be the Dharma Protector of this time. If not, i do believe Dorje Shugden will assume that role but it will take a long, long time where millions of people will have not benefited from his practice.
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: Ensapa on February 03, 2013, 04:32:33 AM
I think it is pretty interesting that the Ganden Tripa has openly went to Shar Ganden after his tenure but kept quiet about the Dorje Shugden issue during his tenure and that he has met Panchen Lama, Ling Rinpoche and other Dorje Shugden Lamas because it shows us where his alliance is at how he can balance it while he was serving the Dalai Lama and what is more interesting is the Dalai Lama did not say anything about him. The Dalai Lama has not criticized him at all and he has kept quiet about the 101st Ganden Tripa. My guess is because the 101st Ganden Tripa is truly someone that is a master of sutra and tantra, so the Dalai Lama cannot say he is wrong or talk negatively of him.
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: vajratruth on February 03, 2013, 11:03:37 AM
i was just talking to a friend today and saying that if the Dalai Lama passes into clear light (of course we pray not for another 10000 years) and the ban is not lifted but fades, there will still be a lot of criticism from those who support the Dalai Lama and NOT read more into the reasons for the ban and the illogical bases behind it. I believe it will take at least one generation to pass before the ill-effects of the ban fades just a little.

The best outcome for Dorje Shugden practitioners is for the Dalai Lama to lift the ban - though in my limited view i really don't know how he will do it since he has condemned Dorje Shugden to hell and back. Even if he stops condemning Dorje Shugden NOW as he has said he would do ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=3076.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=3076.0[/url])), people will still say that the Dalai Lama condemned it in the past.

So it is my deepest deepest wish that HH Dalai Lama lift the ban so that dignity and respect is restored to this amazing Dharma Protector and he will then be able to quickly step into his role to be the Dharma Protector of this time. If not, i do believe Dorje Shugden will assume that role but it will take a long, long time where millions of people will have not benefited from his practice.


It would be best if the Dalai Lama himself removes the ban but I don't see how he can justify a sudden reversal of his position on Dorje Shugden without coming across as being flippant. I am also not sure if that will instill confidence in Buddhism if a deity can suddenly be demonized and then re-deified all in a matter of a few decades. Sadly, His Holiness may be committed to his stance and the true reasons for his ban may follow him into clear light.

However, it may not take long for the effects of the ban to fade away as more and more high lamas such as Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and other young reincarnations of great masters emerge to bridge the chasm between Shugden practioners and those who have opposed it. A friend of mine who recently returned for Gaden Shartse told me that there isn't much animosity between Shartse and Shar Ganden monks anymore regardless of what the official policies are. Even the 100th Gaden Tripa's throne is still there despite His Holiness having "defected" to Shar Ganden.

The Dalai Lama and the CTA originated the ban and without renewed push against the Protector practice I think the Tibetans will just get on with their lives. The Dalai Lama has already stated that he will no longer  speak against the Protector in public. As for the CTA, I feel that there are fast becoming irrelevant and might even be dissolved if China is clever enough to provide good enough conditions for the exiled Tibetans to be lured back to the homeland. As it is, living and social conditions in the Tibet Autonomous Region seems to be becoming more liberal as China opens up to the world.
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: Ensapa on February 04, 2013, 04:14:11 AM

It would be best if the Dalai Lama himself removes the ban but I don't see how he can justify a sudden reversal of his position on Dorje Shugden without coming across as being flippant. I am also not sure if that will instill confidence in Buddhism if a deity can suddenly be demonized and then re-deified all in a matter of a few decades. Sadly, His Holiness may be committed to his stance and the true reasons for his ban may follow him into clear light.

However, it may not take long for the effects of the ban to fade away as more and more high lamas such as Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and other young reincarnations of great masters emerge to bridge the chasm between Shugden practioners and those who have opposed it. A friend of mine who recently returned for Gaden Shartse told me that there isn't much animosity between Shartse and Shar Ganden monks anymore regardless of what the official policies are. Even the 100th Gaden Tripa's throne is still there despite His Holiness having "defected" to Shar Ganden.

The Dalai Lama and the CTA originated the ban and without renewed push against the Protector practice I think the Tibetans will just get on with their lives. The Dalai Lama has already stated that he will no longer  speak against the Protector in public. As for the CTA, I feel that there are fast becoming irrelevant and might even be dissolved if China is clever enough to provide good enough conditions for the exiled Tibetans to be lured back to the homeland. As it is, living and social conditions in the Tibet Autonomous Region seems to be becoming more liberal as China opens up to the world.

HHDL has softened his stance on the ban and also he has also told the abbots that he will stop condemning Dorje Shugden as there isnt a need to do so anymore. Perhaps this is the prelude to him lifting the ban. Give it another 2-3 years or so and the ban will be lifted by HHDL. I dont think so HHDL said that by accident. He is planning to lift the ban. Him softening his stance on Dorje Shugden after 30+ years isnt by accident or because he is just tired of talking about Dorje Shugden. It is probably him conditioning and preparing his students to accept Dorje Shugden as their Dharma protector. The time is near.
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: Gabby Potter on February 16, 2015, 07:42:30 PM
I really do not see if there's anything wrong with befriending a Dorje Shugden practitioner, just because they practise Dorje Shugden, that doesn't differ them from the others. In fact, we should even be close to these wonderful people because what they practise has a lineage and Dorje Shugden is very powerful.
Title: Re: Are You Friends with a Shugden Practitioner?
Post by: James Bond on February 17, 2015, 04:58:58 PM
I think this article is very good and well explained. Thank you for sharing all the information with us.

But in all seriousness, its sad what people have to go through because of the ban. Guru-disciple relationships have to be ruined, monasteries have to split up and even family members aren't allowed to see their own family members if those family members practice DS. I find this very sad.

Also, i find it extremely illogical that such a high lama, who is so wise and attained, can be so easily rejected by the Buddhist society who does not practice Dorje Shugden. Its like everything good that the high lamas have done in their lives mean nothing if they practice Dorje Shugden. How can that be? it doesn't make sense to me. People need to realise this, then the ban will be lifted.