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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Namdrol on January 14, 2013, 01:30:40 PM
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Dalai Lama mentioned about Dorje Shugden again in his recent teaching in Sarnath, India. (see bottom)
Again, the Dalai Lama is repeating the same thing, nothing new. It is about asking those practising Shugden do not attend his teaching/empowerment session.
The article mentioned Shugden as a perfidious spirit, but it has already long proven beyond an iota of doubt, by various indusputable sources that Shugden is not a spirit, but an emanation of Manjushri.
Dalai Lama also mentioned that "many of his friends had stopped doing the practice, as he himself has done, and met with no negative consequences". Well, Dalai Lama is right, THERE IS NO NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES PROVES THAT DORJE SHUGDEN IS NOT HARMFUL! If Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, as he always claimed, then by giving up the practice, Dorje Shugden will take revenge, like any other vicious spirit will do.
Therefore Dalai Lama has reaffirmed here, that because he and his friends met with no negative consequence by giving up Shugden, infers that Shugden is not a harmful spirit afterall, but a kind and compassionate Bodhisattva who will not become jealous even if you stop propitiating Him.
(the article)
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Because the empowerment and receiving of vows involves making a pure spiritual bond with the Lama, His Holiness cautioned those who propitiate Shugden or Dolgyal, described by the Fifth Dalai Lama as a perfidious spirit, and who intend to continue to do so, not to attend tomorrow’s session. His Holiness mentioned that many of his friends had stopped doing the practice, as he himself has done, and met with no negative consequences. He encouraged people to give it up, not just because the Dalai Lama asks them to, but for the various reasons he outlined today and elsewhere.
(http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/897-third-day-of-his-holiness-the-dalai-lamas-teachings-in-sarnath (http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/897-third-day-of-his-holiness-the-dalai-lamas-teachings-in-sarnath))
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Dalai Lama also mentioned that "many of his friends had stopped doing the practice, as he himself has done, and met with no negative consequences". Well, Dalai Lama is right, THERE IS NO NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES PROVES THAT DORJE SHUGDEN IS NOT HARMFUL! If Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, as he always claimed, then by giving up the practice, Dorje Shugden will take revenge, like any other vicious spirit will do.
Of course there is no negative consequences. How can an enlightened being harm anyone? Practitioners experience no negative effects while doing the Dorje Shugden practice, neither do people who stopped doing the practice suffer any consequences. None of the pujas to "exorcise" Dorje Shugden ever worked, the Dalai Lama is still very fit and healthy, Tibet has yet to regain it's independence despite the Shugden ban, and the Nechung oracle who claimed that Dorje Shugden is detrimental to the Tibetan cause has been proven to be wrong on so many occasions, including the time when Nechung prophesied that Tibet would regain its independence by the year 2000.
Virtually every single claim against Dorje Shugden has been proven to be blatantly wrong. What else is there to say about this Protector? What other proofs would anyone require? Namdrol's point is spot on, that is, if Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit why spare the people who are trying to stop his practice and worshippers who have abandoned the practice? Stopping the practice means that Shugden would no longer be propitiated and would also no longer receive offerings and have any influence on the practitioners. What kind of evil spirit would allow that?
What is baffling is that the Tibetan people have still not woken up to the fact that there is no down side in practicing Dorje Shugden, just like there is no down side in following Dharma. After all these years, it should already be obvious that lies have been told about a tremendously beneficial practice.
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such baffling contradictions?
The DL refers to Dorje Shugden as a "perfidious spirit" but then goes on to say in the very same breath that there have been on negative consequences in stopping his practice. This whole situation would be very confusing for people who have been following what the Dalai Lama has been saying about the practice, wouldn't it?
If the practice really was that of a "perfidious spirit", then why even mention the fact that it doesn't bring about any harmful effects? And if it really wasn't as harmful as we have been thinking it is, then why mention at all that DS is a spirit?
The contradictions are rife in the way the Dalai Lama has spoken about Shugden. First for example, he speaks so determinedly about how the practice is bad and his teachers were definitively "wrong" in their practice (here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-says-directly-his-guru-is-wrong/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-says-directly-his-guru-is-wrong/)). He has spoken pointedly about the need to expel monks from monasteries should they not adhere to his directive to stop the practice (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-encourages-expulsion-of-monks/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-encourages-expulsion-of-monks/))
And then later, he says that actually it's a choice - we choose whether to do the practice or not. He even begins to speak in more light hearted tones about it (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-dalai-lama-speaks-about-dorje-shugden-again-at-kalachakra-in-bodhgaya/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-dalai-lama-speaks-about-dorje-shugden-again-at-kalachakra-in-bodhgaya/))
Also, while he has said clearly that his teachers were "wrong" in practicing DS, he also makes a special exception for the incarnation of his root teacher Trijang Rinpoche to teacher (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/dalai-lama-says-trijang-rinpoche-can-practise-dorje-shugden/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/dalai-lama-says-trijang-rinpoche-can-practise-dorje-shugden/))
So which is it, Your Holiness? Is it okay to practice? Or not okay? And if we are to believe that you are an emanation of Chenrezig (which you are), and would therefore not make such mundane and silly mistakes, then which should we believe? The times you say that it's "okay" or the times when you say you must definitely not practice?
Isn't this bizarre? Or is there some kind of bigger plan in the madness? The Dalai Lama seems to be almost teasing us about this now - a deliberate provocation? Or perhaps just making us think things through more thoroughly?
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Well, if Dorje Shugden was so bad, why would Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche, Ven. Gangchen Rinpoche and many great Lamas would recommend Dorje Shugden? These are some of the most influential and most senior ranking High Lamas within the Gelug tradition.
Now, the 14th Dalai Lama had famously granted the permission to the young Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden. Why would the Dalai Lama do this? The Dalai Lama said that Trijang Rinpoche was sufficiently attained enough to control this spirit. If the spirit is so harmful, why would the Dalai Lama allow Trijang Rinpoche the exclusive right to practice? Is it because he is preparing him to spread it later?
Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWi1fJkTA9Q#)
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Dalai Lama mentioned about Dorje Shugden again in his recent teaching in Sarnath, India. (see bottom)
Again, the Dalai Lama is repeating the same thing, nothing new. It is about asking those practising Shugden do not attend his teaching/empowerment session.
The article mentioned Shugden as a perfidious spirit, but it has already long proven beyond an iota of doubt, by various indusputable sources that Shugden is not a spirit, but an emanation of Manjushri.
Dalai Lama also mentioned that "many of his friends had stopped doing the practice, as he himself has done, and met with no negative consequences". Well, Dalai Lama is right, THERE IS NO NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES PROVES THAT DORJE SHUGDEN IS NOT HARMFUL! If Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, as he always claimed, then by giving up the practice, Dorje Shugden will take revenge, like any other vicious spirit will do.
Therefore Dalai Lama has reaffirmed here, that because he and his friends met with no negative consequence by giving up Shugden, infers that Shugden is not a harmful spirit afterall, but a kind and compassionate Bodhisattva who will not become jealous even if you stop propitiating Him.
(the article)
.........................
Because the empowerment and receiving of vows involves making a pure spiritual bond with the Lama, His Holiness cautioned those who propitiate Shugden or Dolgyal, described by the Fifth Dalai Lama as a perfidious spirit, and who intend to continue to do so, not to attend tomorrow’s session. His Holiness mentioned that many of his friends had stopped doing the practice, as he himself has done, and met with no negative consequences. He encouraged people to give it up, not just because the Dalai Lama asks them to, but for the various reasons he outlined today and elsewhere.
([url]http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/897-third-day-of-his-holiness-the-dalai-lamas-teachings-in-sarnath[/url] ([url]http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/897-third-day-of-his-holiness-the-dalai-lamas-teachings-in-sarnath[/url]))
I think that the irony is immense.
First, we will go down to the Three Lower Realms. Then we WONT go down to the Three Lower Realms.
First, Dorje Shugden will harm us if we stop practising him because he wants torma cakes. Then he WONT harm us because hes not harmful.
No disrespect intended AT ALL to His Holiness, but I wish hed make up his mind about these things. It creates so much confusion in the ignoramuses that form the general Tibetan population who simply cant (or refuse) to see the contradictions.
Although, you COULD always say that the Dalai Lama manifests confusion to get them to think and debate the issues amongst themselves. You know, to provide a catalyst for tea shop talk and make Tibetans acquire independent thinking, without relying on the establishment to TELL them what they SHOULD think.
Has anyone heard of the Dalai Lama saying Tibetans need to learn to think more for themselves?
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Hmm... Namdrol has a good point.
The very fact that no one got hurt from the cessation of Dorje Shugden's practice clearly indicates that He is a manifestation of an enlightened mind.
I have heard of many cases where people who go to worldly Gods or spirits for advice, when they stopped, many misfortunes happened and even some of these spirits are so unhappy that they threaten these people through the channeler. The very fact that the people that have 'given up' DS practice and their Guru's advice to practice DS just because the DL said so, and not come to any harm indicates the compassion of DS.
Take for example in the case of Nechung, during the incident when the monks did not listen to his advice... on the next consultation with the Nechung Oracle, Nechung refused to give any advice. This is the quality of a worldly spirit, he takes to heart and am offended that his advice was not followed.
While on the other hand, when Lama Zopa, when he was ill, his close students actually went to DS monasteries quietly to do DS pujas for Lama Zopa's recovery. If DS was truly an ill spirit, Lama Zopa will be in a worst condition as FPMT is known to be very much against DS, but that's not the case... Lama Zopa healed and is well.
In a more recent teaching that the Dalai Lama gave, he no longer call DS as Dolgyal, but call Shugden. He also mentioned playfully that he believes that everyone has listened to his advice and thought for themselves that it is the right thing to give up DS practice.... only few in the audience laughed while the others remained quiet... so @DharmaDefender, what do you think? I think this answers your question regarding Tibetans thinking for themselves... the fact that they don't find it 'entertaining' at all just means the followed blindly...
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Hmm... Namdrol has a good point.
The very fact that no one got hurt from the cessation of Dorje Shugden's practice clearly indicates that He is a manifestation of an enlightened mind.
I have heard of many cases where people who go to worldly Gods or spirits for advice, when they stopped, many misfortunes happened and even some of these spirits are so unhappy that they threaten these people through the channeler. The very fact that the people that have 'given up' DS practice and their Guru's advice to practice DS just because the DL said so, and not come to any harm indicates the compassion of DS.
Take for example in the case of Nechung, during the incident when the monks did not listen to his advice... on the next consultation with the Nechung Oracle, Nechung refused to give any advice. This is the quality of a worldly spirit, he takes to heart and am offended that his advice was not followed.
While on the other hand, when Lama Zopa, when he was ill, his close students actually went to DS monasteries quietly to do DS pujas for Lama Zopa's recovery. If DS was truly an ill spirit, Lama Zopa will be in a worst condition as FPMT is known to be very much against DS, but that's not the case... Lama Zopa healed and is well.
In a more recent teaching that the Dalai Lama gave, he no longer call DS as Dolgyal, but call Shugden. He also mentioned playfully that he believes that everyone has listened to his advice and thought for themselves that it is the right thing to give up DS practice.... only few in the audience laughed while the others remained quiet... so @DharmaDefender, what do you think? I think this answers your question regarding Tibetans thinking for themselves... the fact that they don't find it 'entertaining' at all just means the followed blindly...
It is certainly an interesting point to be highlighted. Much of what HHDL says is not without a purpose. Most often than not, every word HHDL utters from his holy mouth is with precision of thought and clarity of mind. Let not our own misconceptions or lack of understanding of HHDL's pure mind be the spark of arrogance against HHDL.
There is certainly a change in tone in HHDL deliverance on issues such as Dorje Shugden. One can clearly see it here in this article. Read on: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/true-harmony-or-a-change-of-tune/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/true-harmony-or-a-change-of-tune/)
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Yes, in very recent times, HH Dalai Lama seemed to have toned down in language when he spoke against Dorje Shugden. His anti-Shugden stance is more muted. It is true he still alludes to the fact that the Fifth Dalai Lama had also imposed a ban on Shugden practice. Yet even in regard to this, the reasons he has given on two recent occasions - on 9 December 2012 in Drepung Loseling Monastery and on 9 January 2013 at Sarnath - are rather general and less vitriolic.
On the former occasion, he said that the Fifth Dalai Lama had banned the practice of Shugden because people were praying to Protectors like Shugden for mundane reasons and not spiritual ones. On the latter occasion, he said that the Fifth had seen Dorje Shugden as "a perfidious spirit"(not as bad as referring to Shugden as a malevolent being of the preta realm, as he had previously done).
Yes, HH Dalai Lama gives us hope indeed that perhaps he is moving towards the day when he will declare the ban lifted.
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Hey all there's a good article up on this talk also, which looks deeper into the way the Dalai Lama has been speaking about Dorje Shugden. There's a good comparison of the different ways in which he has talked about Shugden and the changing tones - is the Dalai Lama being contrary? Or is showing a definite change in heart about the ban?
Which do you think it is?
True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/true-harmony-or-a-change-of-tune/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/true-harmony-or-a-change-of-tune/)
His Holiness spoke on Religious Harmony and Dorje Shugden at Drepung Loseling Monastery in Mundgod, India, during a Lamrim teaching on December 9, 2012. Please refer especially to 21.00 minutes of the video onwards. A translated summary of what the Dalai Lama says can be found under the video.
His Holiness speaks on Religious Harmony & Dorje Shugden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d20T0uecnXo#)
or watch on our server:
http://video.dorjeshugden.com/videos/dalailamareligiousharmony.flv (http://video.dorjeshugden.com/videos/dalailamareligiousharmony.flv)
A translated summary of video above, from 21:00 minutes onwards:
“Within the Gelug, the Tsema Namdrol text has become the best. It used to be in Sakya but this has lessened. It would be good if others invited Geshes to teach it. We must have inter-sect harmony. That is why the practice of Gyalpo Shugden is not good. One reason is that Gelugpas have said not to study Nyingma texts. Saying this is not good. We need all lineages to unite and be harmonious.
“In Tibet and here (India), around 99% of you all have reasoned out my explanations of why we shouldn’t practice Gyalpo Shugden. There is no point to pray to a dead monk spirit (Drekpa).
“Since all of you are not practicing and I have talked about Shugden before, I do not need to talk about it again.
“In Tibet, they say that the Three Great Seats of learning (Gaden, Sera and Drepung Monasteries) have turned Nyingma because they have abandoned the practice of Gyalpo Shugden. What purpose is that? Are we now all Nyingmas here?
“They do not understand the situation but just overtly talk like that in Tibet. They don’t understand. If you practice Gyalpo Shugden and can gain enlightenment, I rejoice!
“Sometimes I tease you. In front of Shakyamuni, we don’t pray or wish for long life, or for no obstacles. Do we even know how to pray like that to Shakyamuni? But in the protector chapel we really ask and pray for no obstacles and long life; we pray, “May things go my way”. And at the end of our prayers, we even pray for an end to our enemies! In the temple, in front of Shakyamuni, we fold our hands. But it’s in the protector chapel that we really open up and lay our hopes.
“The 5th Dalai Lama observed this situation and thus banned Shugden, relegating Shugden practice to that of praying to a dead monk spirit which was clearly not advised.”
Throughout the ban on Dorje Shugden, His Holiness the Dalai Lama has maintained his stance against the practice. However, what has become notable are the changes in his tone of delivery and the way in which he speaks of the issue. What these apparent inconsistencies portray or if they have a much deeper connotation is of course up to one’s interpretation.
The video of the Dalai Lama’s speech above clearly illustrates this considerable tonal change in manner and speech as well as the ‘lyrical’ change in the way he refers to the subject.
First, there is a noticeable change in the way the Dalai Lama now refers to Dorje Shugden. Since the implementation of the ban, the Dalai Lama has always referred to this protector as “Dholgyal”, meaning “King Spirit of Dhol”. This is a derogatory term which suggests that he must have done something very wrong to reincarnate back as a “spirit king. Now, the Dalai Lama refers to him as Gyalpo Shugden – it is significant that he refers to him by his name Shugden now. Although the term “Gyalpo” is still not respectful, the inclusion of his name and acknowledgement of his identity marks a step up from the previous referrals.
Secondly, the Dalai Lama used to maintain a very hard stance against the practice of Dorje Shugden and even overtly encouraged the expulsion of monks (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-encourages-expulsion-of-monks/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-encourages-expulsion-of-monks/)), speaking in very strict tones. He has also been very firm about stating that his own Gurus were wrong for pursuing their practice of Dorje Shugden (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/videos/news-ban/the-dalai-lama-says-his-gurus-are-wrong/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/videos/news-ban/the-dalai-lama-says-his-gurus-are-wrong/))
Over the years, we have noticed considerable change in the way the Dalai Lama speaks about the practice. From saying that we should not practice at all, he has begun to say that it is up to the individual to decide if they wish to practice Shugden; that he is not telling us what to do but a choice we can make for ourselves. (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-speaks-about-dorje-shugden-at-kalachakra-washington-dc-july-11-2011/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-speaks-about-dorje-shugden-at-kalachakra-washington-dc-july-11-2011/))
The way he speaks about Shugden practice in the video above continues this train of thought and is expressed in a much more relaxed, even playful, way. He says, “If you practice Gyalpo Shugden and can gain enlightenment, I rejoice!” suggesting again that it is a choice and not an instruction that is so forcibly imposed on practitioners.
Further, the essence of this message seems to have evolved from merely emphasizing the harm of spirit worship. Instead here, the Dalai Lama engages in a broader discussion about how most practitioners relate to their Protector practices in a very mundane, base way, when in fact, true essence of enlightenment comes from a more serious propitiation to the Three Jewels.
This evolution of delivery, method and message seems to point to a more relaxed stance towards the ban, in an almost deliberate and conscious precursor to its eventual release in due time. We certainly hope that in time, the tone will relax completely to a point that the ban is released and the practice is freed.
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The way he speaks about Shugden practice in the video above continues this train of thought and is expressed in a much more relaxed, even playful, way. He says, “If you practice Gyalpo Shugden and can gain enlightenment, I rejoice!” suggesting again that it is a choice and not an instruction that is so forcibly imposed on practitioners.
I actually read this differently. I think the Dalai Lama is mocking Dorje Shugden practitioners. He's saying "if you can attain enlightenment by relying upon a worldly spirit, I rejoice". He knows full well that it's impossible to attain enlightenment by relying on a Gyalpo, so Shugden practitioners must be stupid for trying, and for not realising that they can't.
I don't see any tonal change at all. He's still bringing up in every public teaching and speaking out against the practice. Also, bear in mind that he's preaching to the converted as Shugden practitioners are not allowed to attend his teachings. No one is given any choice about that.
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@Namdro, yes, I agree with what you said... If Dorje Shugden is indeed an evil spirit, then if a person stop practicing it, the evil spirit will definitely hard the practitioners. However, such "bad" things didn't happen to the practitioners. From this logic alone, we can said that Dorje Shugde is NOT evil.
Thank your for such this simple yet important! information
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Agreed with your logic, Namdrol.
As HHDL and his friends who stop practicing Dorje Shugden that met with no negative consequence, it infers that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being. If it is a harmful spirit, it will still have anger and hatred and will harm others if stop practicing him.
Another point that is HHDL is compassion and emanation of Chenrezig. If one is compassionate, he would not have differentiation that do not allow his enemy or other people from attending his talk. It is just so contradictory to his teaching.
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Obviously Dorje Shugden cannot harm. He cannot harm the way how a mother will never harm her own child because he is a fully enlightened Buddha. The Dalai Lama saying this is to drop off more hints that Dorje Shugden is enlightened. It seems that during the recent years he seems to have soften up a lot on Dorje Shugden and perhaps he is easing up people into accepting Dorje Shugden as a positive entity in the minds of his followers? I believe very strongly that the Dalai Lama will be the one to lift the ban because of how he is talking about Dorje Shugden. Maybe the next time we'd find him saying that he has been mistaken about Dorje Shugden all along and that Dorje Shugden practitioners are allowed to come to his teachings?
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Also, bear in mind that he's preaching to the converted as Shugden practitioners are not allowed to attend his teachings. No one is given any choice about that.
That is an interesting point. If there are no Shugden practitioners in the audience, then why bother bringing it up? The possible conclusions are that there are people who privately still practice and the Dalai Lama knows this so he is reiterating the point. Secondly, the Dalai Lama wants to bring attention to this issue, whether there are practitioners in the audience or not. The bigger picture hypothesis requires Dorje Shugden to be constantly in the news, thus the Dalai Lama has to keep talking about Dorje Shugden in order to achieve the goal of ensuring that Dorje Shugden is the most well-known Dharma Protector at the present time.
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Well, if Dorje Shugden was so bad, why would Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche, Ven. Gangchen Rinpoche and many great Lamas would recommend Dorje Shugden? These are some of the most influential and most senior ranking High Lamas within the Gelug tradition.
Now, the 14th Dalai Lama had famously granted the permission to the young Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden. Why would the Dalai Lama do this? The Dalai Lama said that Trijang Rinpoche was sufficiently attained enough to control this spirit. If the spirit is so harmful, why would the Dalai Lama allow Trijang Rinpoche the exclusive right to practice? Is it because he is preparing him to spread it later?
Big Uncle, I likewhat you said, and to add to it, HHDL said that Trijang Rinpoche was sufficiently attained enough to control this spirit. So then he means that he himself is not attained enough to "control" this spirit? Any boddhisattva, and especially the emanation of Chenrezig as HH is, would subdue and "control" this "evil spirit" if Dorje Shugden was one, to prevent further harm being done to people. Like how Nechung was subdued. So, why doesn't HH subdue this "evil spirit" for the betterment of everyone, instead of just asking people to stop practising this "evil spirit"..unless Dorje Shugden isn't really an evil spirit as what has been proclaimed by HH.
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When he reached the end of Chapter Eight he announced that tomorrow he will give an Avalokiteshvara empowerment and along with it the generation of the awakening mind, the layperson’s precepts and the bodhisattva’s vow. He also intends to read Chapters Nine and Ten.
Because the empowerment and receiving of vows involves making a pure spiritual bond with the Lama, His Holiness cautioned those who propitiate Shugden or Dolgyal, described by the Fifth Dalai Lama as a perfidious spirit, and who intend to continue to do so, not to attend tomorrow’s session.
In the news report, Dalai Lama requested those people whom practicing Dorje Shugden not to attend to the next day teaching. Of cause! Those whom practicing Dorje Shugden are not encourage to attend to the empowerment that will be conduct on the next day, as it is an Avalokiteshvara empowerment , so those who are not into practicing Avalokiteshvara will not have to attend any more.
His Holiness mentioned that many of his friends had stopped doing the practice, as he himself has done, and met with no negative consequences. He encouraged people to give it up, not just because the Dalai Lama asks them to, but for the various reasons he outlined today and elsewhere.
Why did Dalai Lama purposely need to mention Dorje Shugden name to the public? And "purposely explained" further that stopping Dorje Shugden practice will not cause any harms? Even in the article using the words "encourage" not forbidden people to not practice. What he means various reasons to stop?
At the beginning of the news report “In order to overcome ignorance, which is the root of all suffering, we need to understand reality. Nagarjuna praises the Buddha for revealing the unmistaken view that enables us to do that.”
They mentioned about Nagarjuna praises the Buddha. If they praises the Nagarjuna, they should well understand that the rise of Dorje Shugden is to protect Nagarjuna's middle's view. If Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit, why did Dorje Shugden wanted to protect the views? Why should a harmful spirit, that wanted to harm human and by nature would harm the Dharma rise to protect Nagajurna's middle views? If Dorje Shugden is not Dharma Protector why did Dalai Lama allow Trijang Rinpoche to practice?
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I find that the contradictory is quite ridiculous, do you think the common people will be able to pick up the subtle hints that His Holiness is making? Most of the people will just take whatever His Holiness said take into account, word by word. This will continue to create doubt in the people. On the other hand, those people will want to find out more will do their homework, finding out more information about the issue. But I do not understand why His Holiness still continue to create doubt in people's mind knowing that they won't be able to get the subtle hints because of the lack of understanding. The worse of all is there is never a concrete basis from His Holiness about banning Dorje Shugden, all the statements are too much in the air. No facts and evidence to support. Yes I do understand His Holiness must have his reason and the reason for the ban. I am just concern about the common people who has limited understanding, what benefit do they get out of this really?
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The way he speaks about Shugden practice in the video above continues this train of thought and is expressed in a much more relaxed, even playful, way. He says, “If you practice Gyalpo Shugden and can gain enlightenment, I rejoice!” suggesting again that it is a choice and not an instruction that is so forcibly imposed on practitioners.
I actually read this differently. I think the Dalai Lama is mocking Dorje Shugden practitioners. He's saying "if you can attain enlightenment by relying upon a worldly spirit, I rejoice". He knows full well that it's impossible to attain enlightenment by relying on a Gyalpo, so Shugden practitioners must be stupid for trying, and for not realising that they can't.
I don't see any tonal change at all. He's still bringing up in every public teaching and speaking out against the practice. Also, bear in mind that he's preaching to the converted as Shugden practitioners are not allowed to attend his teachings. No one is given any choice about that.
It could be that he is using reverse psychology on that because people have been enlightened by relying on Dorje Shugden and chaining that logic to the one that you have pointed out -- that there are already no Dorje Shugden practitioners in the crowd, so what is the Dalai Lama really trying to tell those people? Certainly not to give up Dorje Shugden again right? To me, its more like he is trying to plant seeds and preparing the minds of those people to receive Dorje Shugden in as the Dharmapala of our times. It may take a while, but I do believe that good things will come to all who wait.
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I actually read this differently. I think the Dalai Lama is mocking Dorje Shugden practitioners. He's saying "if you can attain enlightenment by relying upon a worldly spirit, I rejoice". He knows full well that it's impossible to attain enlightenment by relying on a Gyalpo, so Shugden practitioners must be stupid for trying, and for not realising that they can't.
I don't see any tonal change at all. He's still bringing up in every public teaching and speaking out against the practice. Also, bear in mind that he's preaching to the converted as Shugden practitioners are not allowed to attend his teachings. No one is given any choice about that.
So exactly - if the people in his teachings are already the converted and not practicing, then why bring it up at all? Surely the Dalai Lama will know that his teachings are being broadcasted all over the world, and will be viewed by both Tibetan practitioners as well as practitioners everywhere else. This is most definitely a pointed comment that he knows will be heard by everyone - both for and against the practice.
It is not just a tonal change, but a change in the content too. Examine the way he addresses the issue through the years. There is definitely a marked difference. If he was maintaining such a hardline stance against it, then wouldn't he continue to maintain the same argument against the spirit - which began as being a definite stance NOT TO PRACTICE. It was uncompromising and no laughing, mocking matter.
Note this video that's also mentioned in the article: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-speaks-about-dorje-shugden-at-kalachakra-washington-dc-july-11-2011/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-speaks-about-dorje-shugden-at-kalachakra-washington-dc-july-11-2011/)
Here, he doesn't even just speak about the practice being a choice of the individual, but also overtly mentions how the practice seems to be strong in certain parts of the world. Why even mention something like this (and chuckle) if he's trying to completely discourage it?
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Big Uncle, I likewhat you said, and to add to it, HHDL said that Trijang Rinpoche was sufficiently attained enough to control this spirit. So then he means that he himself is not attained enough to "control" this spirit? Any boddhisattva, and especially the emanation of Chenrezig as HH is, would subdue and "control" this "evil spirit" if Dorje Shugden was one, to prevent further harm being done to people. Like how Nechung was subdued. So, why doesn't HH subdue this "evil spirit" for the betterment of everyone, instead of just asking people to stop practising this "evil spirit"..unless Dorje Shugden isn't really an evil spirit as what has been proclaimed by HH.
Exactly my thoughts.
Just like how Dorje Shugden could not be destroyed by the 5th Dalai Lama and all the great lamas of that time, similarly DS cannot be destroyed by the present Dalai Lama. The only thing that can be this indestructible is only if DS is a purely enlightened Buddha.
If Pehar, Nechung... which belongs to the Gyalpo class of spirit and also the most powerful spirit in the land; can be subdued by Padmasambhava, then how can DS if he is a mere spirit not be subdued by HHDL? Not logical. Unless... because the DL do not have the blessings of the lineage lamas to destroy DS, thus he is unable to do so?
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Note this video that's also mentioned in the article: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-speaks-about-dorje-shugden-at-kalachakra-washington-dc-july-11-2011/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/videos-controversy/dalai-lama-speaks-about-dorje-shugden-at-kalachakra-washington-dc-july-11-2011/[/url])
Here, he doesn't even just speak about the practice being a choice of the individual, but also overtly mentions how the practice seems to be strong in certain parts of the world. Why even mention something like this (and chuckle) if he's trying to completely discourage it?
Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen this. I really don't see any change. For a Western audience he says things like "it's your choice if you practice or not" but not for Tibetans, he's pretty hard line about it. Why does he mention it again? He mentions it in every public teaching I believe for two reasons - firstly, there are probably some people in the audience who are still practising but in secret and he's trying to get through to them, and secondly, he wants to reinforce the ban by keeping the issue alive. He has a very angry attitude about Dorje Shugden practice and he has shown this many times in the past. Since he feels so strongly, he will not let it go but will continue to mention it in every teaching. It's purely politics.
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I find that the contradictory is quite ridiculous, do you think the common people will be able to pick up the subtle hints that His Holiness is making? Most of the people will just take whatever His Holiness said take into account, word by word. This will continue to create doubt in the people. On the other hand, those people will want to find out more will do their homework, finding out more information about the issue. But I do not understand why His Holiness still continue to create doubt in people's mind knowing that they won't be able to get the subtle hints because of the lack of understanding. The worse of all is there is never a concrete basis from His Holiness about banning Dorje Shugden, all the statements are too much in the air. No facts and evidence to support. Yes I do understand His Holiness must have his reason and the reason for the ban. I am just concern about the common people who has limited understanding, what benefit do they get out of this really?
Ever wondered if may be His Holiness is actually filtering out those that actually practice real "GURU DEVOTION", LOYALTY, and WISDOM? I've been thinking about this ridiculous ban over and over and over.... I just cannot accept that Chenrezig created havoc for no good reasons. So here is my theory and observations... the more HHDL says NO to Dorje Shugden.... the more China says YES. If you do the math... how many people are Tibetans and will listen to Dalai Lama and how many people are there in China? If you combine all those holly smolly ppl who are HHDL followers, they still don't come close to how the billions in China and well it ain't gonna stop there, that is for sure.
Why I say it is filtering is because from such a chaos, during harsh time like this, you see people's true colours emerged, you see how people react, how people dump their Guru like a blink of an eye, people who don't think deeper, don't investigate, don't really practice Dharma and condemn and put others down... well they are not exactly very Buddhist when they become violent... this is when the show of characteristic comes out and well preserving and protecting the Nagarjuna's middle view. That is why once the ban is gone you will know who follow loyalty.
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To me, as I have observed again and again, the whole point of the ban seems to be focusing on separating people who are really interested in the Dharma and its practice from people who only like Buddhism from an intellectual level. Many people who get caught with the ban on Dorje Shugden tend to be people who act in such ways where they are actually worse than people who are not Buddhist and do not respect the basic tenets of Buddhism to begin with. There are so many examples of delusional people that you can actually find online whose actions do not match their words and they happen to be supporters of the Dalai Lama and they go against Dorje Shugden. So it seems to me that the Dalai Lama is using this ban to keep those people away from the true lineage of Ganden.
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What a assumption! What are you? A real practitioner? A intellectual or what? Which one are you? If you classify yourself as neither, then you are in trouble as the saying goes!
Ensapa, you are truly entertaining and yet living in a ultra left wing dimension beyond our reality's time and space.
;)
I like you though. Your ideas are interesting although they don't make real sense yet creative. Thanks for being here.To me, as I have observed again and again, the whole point of the ban seems to be focusing on separating people who are really interested in the Dharma and its practice from people who only like Buddhism from an intellectual level. Many people who get caught with the ban on Dorje Shugden tend to be people who act in such ways where they are actually worse than people who are not Buddhist and do not respect the basic tenets of Buddhism to begin with. There are so many examples of delusional people that you can actually find online whose actions do not match their words and they happen to be supporters of the Dalai Lama and they go against Dorje Shugden. So it seems to me that the Dalai Lama is using this ban to keep those people away from the true lineage of Ganden.
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Namdrol. I agree with your logic. It is faultless. If the protector is harmful it will certainly be taking revenge when one stop practicing. Like a vengeful spirit. On the other hand if nothing happens when one stop propitiating Him then his is compassionate or benign. Ironically, that being the case, then we should then be propitiating HIM since he is compassionate and is therefore enlightened.
On another angle, in a teaching at Drepung Loseling Monastery in Mundgod, India, http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/true-harmony-or-a-change-of-tune/, (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/true-harmony-or-a-change-of-tune/,) I quote:
They do not understand the situation but just overtly talk like that in Tibet. They don’t understand. If you practice Gyalpo Shugden and can gain enlightenment, I rejoice!
“Sometimes I tease you. In front of Shakyamuni, we don’t pray or wish for long life, or for no obstacles. Do we even know how to pray like that to Shakyamuni? But in the protector chapel we really ask and pray for no obstacles and long life; we pray, “May things go my way”. And at the end of our prayers, we even pray for an end to our enemies! In the temple, in front of Shakyamuni, we fold our hands. But it’s in the protector chapel that we really open up and lay our hopes.
In the above quote, HHDL is saying if one can gain enlightenment from propitiating Dorje Shugden, he rejoices. I read it that he is offering the possibility of that. Protector practice is a supportive practice and if not the main practice for gaining enlightenment. However, in this degenerate age the practice can help lead many from sufferings and to the proper path of practice. In this quote also, he is not objecting to the protector per se but to the practice of many in over relying on the protector for mundane worldly objectives and even to eliminate enemies. That is not the fault of any protector but the fault of humans. (Note that the protector will never grant any wishes that creates negative karma for the practitioner).
My point? Implicitly, he means that since the Protector Dorje Shugden is the most powerful and suitable protector of this age, in that he is the swiftest and grant many wishes, it is also dangerous from the point of view of the practitioner in their over reliance of the protector. Nonetheless, he acknowledges the Protector. I rejoice.
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What a assumption! What are you? A real practitioner? A intellectual or what? Which one are you? If you classify yourself as neither, then you are in trouble as the saying goes!
Ensapa, you are truly entertaining and yet living in a ultra left wing dimension beyond our reality's time and space.
;)
I like you though. Your ideas are interesting although they don't make real sense yet creative. Thanks for being here.
I would classify myself as an intellectual. Before I met Dorje Shugden or met my Guru who showed me other material that proved to me that Dorje Shugden was actually an enlightened being, I would have shunned him altogether. Like I have said, it is only my observation because so far the really hardcore anti Dorje Shugden followers of the Dalai Lama except for you had said that even mentioning his name brings bad luck, so it is best not to even say his name. That sounds more like something a superstitious person would say rather than a Buddhist.
I may not work according to your reality but i still hope that what i write would one day make a difference in someone's mind. there are so many people in this world and so many readers in this forum and so many different dispositions, if it is this way to you, it might mean something else to others :)
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Obviously there is a contradiction, do you think that His Holiness the Dalai Lama doesn't know about this? I doubt that, His Holiness is an enlightened Buddha, what do you think His Holiness is? His Holiness is very kind and compassionate to make Himself look bad and so that people would have the chance to "confront" Him. If this is not true compassion, then what is?
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Of course he is not harmful! Dorje Shugden is not a demon, spirit or a evil thing in any form. There are no negative consequences... Of course there is not! He is an emanation of Manjushri and everybody knows that. i hope this is a start, a stepping stone, to a lifted ban. So the monks and the people being discriminated can be freed from their suffering that they do not deserve and they are being ignored, called over-reacting or people even say that the discrimination isn't there and the worst part is that they didn't do anything wrong other than believe which is not against the law!
But we can boost the process of lifting the bad by showing the world that this discrimination is happening and teach them to look beyond one man and see a situation for themselves. People need to know, we need to shed light on the situation and so the other side of the world if not the whole worlds can know about this. We need to go to them with this news and show them the cruelty and get the whole world to lift the ban. So the poor people can be free.