dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Big Uncle on April 30, 2012, 11:12:29 AM
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According to Tk on another thread... http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1905.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1905.0)
Within five years some high lamas have mentioned, the Shugden issue will resolve positively in favor of the Shugden practitioners which number into the millions around the world.
This is fantastic news! I wonder what would eventually bring the ban down? Does Dr Lobsang Sangye pursue Tibetan and gives up the ban? That's what I think will happen but what about you?
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There's only one thing that will do it - the Dalai Lama says he was wrong and recants every negative thing he's said about Dorje Shugden.
I can't see it happening any other way, otherwise, even if people are 'allowed' to practise again, Dorje Shugden will always have the stigma of being a worldly spirit and those who practise will be seen as non-Buddhists.
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the ban cannot last forever as more and more people investigate and realize the benefits of Dorje Shugden. It will come to a point where the ban would look illogical and people can no longer accept the ban as well as other nasty things that are said about the ban. the needs of the many will overshadow the needs of a mere few and it is at this point that HHDL will lift the ban.
HHDL has expressed in a happy way, as if he was rejoicing, when he mentioned that there was an increase of DS practitioners during the recent Kalachakra initiation. This is a very clear sign that he will lift the ban when he receives news that there are more and more people practicing Dorje Shugden, he will lift the ban so that more people can benefit and practice it openly.
Lobsang Sangay has proven to us again and again that he is a weak and incapable leader. This is not a good or encouraging sign for a prime minister to act or to appear. He is still always trying to hide behind the Dalai Lama's shadow and not trying to be true to himself or to speak up whenever necessary. Although it is possible that he is just too afraid of doing something too radical that the Tibetan society cannot accept...
I'm still placing my bets on the rest of the Dorje Shugden practitioners who keep their samaya and who goes in accord with the protector's wishes. At the end of the day, no matter what people say about Dorje Shugden but if the practitioners show results of their Dharma practice, it would overshadow the ban and all the nasty but untrue things that are said about Dorje Shugden.
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Of course it is IDEAL if HH the Dalai Lama says that oops I was wrong and Dorje Shugden IS a Buddha. That could happen but honestly, I’m not holding my breath. What I think is more likely to happen is that when HH passes on, the ban will slowly fade away.
I believe that there are many great lamas who do not agree with HH’s stance on Dorje Shugden but have kept quiet from respect for HH and their own reasons which I have no way of guessing or judging since I do not know them. Some have decided to become lay persons and stay low profile, like HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche though i do believe he is living like a great lama that he is and simply biding his time. Also, since these lamas have attainments, I trust that they know what they are doing, and what they are doing is for the benefit of others. When HH is no longer around, I think these lamas will be able to continue their practice more publicly without fear or favour.
Buddha said “Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.” I strongly believe in this – that we should examine what is spoken, no matter who said it, and not just believe it because it has been rumoured by many people. We should examine the issue on its own merits and the many reasons for us to believe that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha have been well presented on this website. For those who are confused by the issue, please do read and contemplate on its merits, rather than rely on hearsay.
Here are a few links:
Contemplate this:
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=46 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=46)
Is Dorje Shugden a demon or a Buddha?
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11790 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11790)
Arguments for and against
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5525 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5525)
Why Dorje Shugden has to be the bad guy
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=599.msg4504;topicseen#msg4504 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=599.msg4504;topicseen#msg4504)
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A ban will not be lasting forever, no matter how strong a ban is or how serious a ban is, due to the law of impermanent, it will still be lifted, and it’s only the matter of time.
To cause the ban to go down, there can be many reasons.
1) Dalai Lama step out and declare the real reason why he ban at the first place, and not officially announce the ban is lifted.
2) Lobsang Sangye step out for his people and announce that CTA will not enforce the ban, all Tibetan will be allowed to practice what they want and still can get fare treat from the country.
3) When there are too many people practicing Dorje Shugden, the number of people practicing is so great that until the ban is already does not matter anymore and hence, the ban will be lifted automatically.
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I agree with mostly what are commented here.
The good work being done by those groups of dedicating people in promoting the practice via websites and social medias, free distribution of Dorje Shugden images and written materials, setting up shrines with Dorje Shugden images for the public to make offerings to, promoting and talking to friends, colleagues, etc help tremendously for more people to understand the positive benefits of practicing Dorje Shugden. I do not know who you are but I salute you!
As for me, I will make my voice heard via this beautifully well done website and related social medias.
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In human history, there are many things which are banned previously but it is now OK. For example, people are not allowed to talk back to the kings; women are not allowed to vote; etc. Look at these bans now, where are they?
And what contribute to the removal of the bans? It is the knowledge. When more and more people has knowledge of the subject, they will find out something are illogical, and they will start saying, "hmm.. I think there is something not quite right here."
For example, the "logic" put out by HH Dalai Lama about the banning of Dorje Shugden, to me, they are very illogical, but the thing is, not many people know about it.
Therefore, it is important that we practitioners work hard and spread the knowledge, and when enough people making a point, the ban will be lifted.
So, in short, work hard to spread the knowledge will cause the ban to go down :)
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I believe that the ban on Shugden practice will be lifted if the practice spreads so rapidly everywhere and in an unstoppable manner. So much so that the ban will be seen as most ineffective in curbing the practice, so why have the ban?
So how can this wildfire-like way of spreading the practice of Dorje Shugden come about? For one thing, we need vehicles for global reach like the social media. This website is the best example. It promotes Dorje Shugden as a compassionate Buddha, the Enlightened Protector for this degenerate age, and gives all the reasons and evidence.It shows us how practicing Shugden is a Dharma practice, especially for this degenerate age, that will help us swiftly attain Enlightenment (our ultimate goal)for the benefit of all beings. It gives a channel for people who have received the benefits of Shugden practice to tell their stories to the world. it tells us of the peace-loving great Lamas and Masters who were/are Shugden practitioners and who are spreading Dorje Shugden every where they go by their compassionate works of teaching the Dharma and building Shugden Chapels and Monasteries, and creating great Shugden statues.It explains and shows very clearly the nature and history of the Shugden ban and controversy without fear or favor. In fact, it tells us everything about Dorje Shugden that anyone and everyone would want to know.
We all can do our bit to spread Shugden by actively participating in this forum, and be informed and knowledgeable people who will help the spread of Shugden practice, armed with the truth and the correct information from this website. Let's not dawdle, let's get going!
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I dont think His Holiness The Dalai Lama will publicly announced that he had made a mistake and the ban will be lifted. I feel that as more people understand and have more knowledge of Dorje Shugden and find the ban illogical, the practice will spread like wildfire until the ban die off eventually.
We should support the dedicated people behind this website, those who distributed brochures, pendants, images by promoting Dorje Shugden through social media to help create awareness.
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In human history, there are many things which are banned previously but it is now OK. For example, people are not allowed to talk back to the kings; women are not allowed to vote; etc. Look at these bans now, where are they?
And what contribute to the removal of the bans? It is the knowledge. When more and more people has knowledge of the subject, they will find out something are illogical, and they will start saying, "hmm.. I think there is something not quite right here."
For example, the "logic" put out by HH Dalai Lama about the banning of Dorje Shugden, to me, they are very illogical, but the thing is, not many people know about it.
Therefore, it is important that we practitioners work hard and spread the knowledge, and when enough people making a point, the ban will be lifted.
So, in short, work hard to spread the knowledge will cause the ban to go down :)
Yes I agree with you Kris and also pgdharma. Knowledge is the key to dispel misunderstanding. When more and more people know the truth and the reasons why Dorje Shugden practice is banned, the more silly the Tibetan govt will feel to the point of embarassment. Also through the perserverance of Dorje Shugden practitioners in promoting the truth about him, alot of merits is generated for the ban to be lifted.
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The ban will go down if practitioners of Dorje Shugden do not give up hope and work hard towards the spread of Dorje Shugden's practice. Whether or not the ban will be lifted 5 years from now, if the number of practitioners increase tremendously and spreads to the entire world, do you think the ban will still have any effect?
With so many people on Dorje Shugden's side, no one else can say anything negative. The majority will prove that Dorje Shugden's practice is sacred and He is a Buddha. Hence many people practices Dorje Shugden.
All these will come true if and only if, the present practitioners work extremely hard to break the barriers in a peaceful manner. Do whatever we can to spread the practice. Tell your friends, use the power of social media, read more about Dorje Shugden to increase our knowledge so when we speak to others, we can speak confidently and that will attract them to the practice.
We can also support this forum and website which provides us with so much accurate information. Support by buying Dorje Shugden related items in the eshop. Statues, pendants, comic books, etc..suited as gifts as well! How amazing it is for us to offer a Dorje Shugden pendant to family and friends for any occasions be it birthdays, weddings, anniversaries, etc.
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In human history, there are many things which are banned previously but it is now OK. For example, people are not allowed to talk back to the kings; women are not allowed to vote; etc. Look at these bans now, where are they?
And what contribute to the removal of the bans? It is the knowledge. When more and more people has knowledge of the subject, they will find out something are illogical, and they will start saying, "hmm.. I think there is something not quite right here."
Yes this is definitely something I think so too! Most often we hear of bans being forgotten over time when there is no strong leadership and stability. This is apparent in the Tibetan community in exile now because what they have been creating is more disunity then anything else. Also think about they a government that is self proclaimed and in exile. They don't really have a country any more, sorry to say. So even if the Ban continues, there is no strong ground to it and definitely has nothing to with the world so to speak. So the only place that you cannot practice would be in Dharamsala, but the whole world can and has that FREEDOM.
And if China promotes it, who dares say it is not OK? China is the strongest and NO 1 super power nation of the world right now. If it is their heritage, they can and will certainly make it big and we know no one can shut them down. So whether of not HHDL says He has made a mistake becomes pointless really. And when he passes, sorry to say, it really does not matter and the CTA says will hardly matter to anyone any more. HHDL has and is still their spokesperson and many listen now is only because of HHDL. But when He is no longer around CTA will no longer have anyone who really can be influential to the world.
So it is an opportunity now to educate the world as much as possible about Dorje Shugden and what better way to do this then through the technology we have today that reaches out to billions for FREE i.e. this website and Dorje Shugden facebook http://www.facebook.com/GyelchenDorjeShugden. (http://www.facebook.com/GyelchenDorjeShugden.)
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Let’s look at the chronology of the events below:
1) HH Dalai Lama had been practising Dorje Shugden (DS) all this while
2) HH Dalai Lama suddenly said he is wrong about DS
3) HH Dalai Lama enforced the ban on the DS
4) In the future assuming HH Dalai Lama will lift the ban personally. HH Dalai Lama might say that he was wrong about the ban and DS
It would be the most ideal if HH Dalai Lama were to personally lift the ban. I can’t image how HH Dalai Lama is going to lift the ban. HH Dalai Lama is an ambassador for Buddhism and is synonymous with World Peace and Compassion. His Holiness’ decision to lift the ban will jeopardise his reputation and integrity. Will HH Dalai Lama do it? Perhaps CTA will have to do it themselves to protect HH Dalai Lama?
As the efforts overtly or covertly to educate the public and the World increased through dorjeshugden.com and other DS websites, supporters of DS practice, individuals, lamas, DS centres, etc., it is likely the ban on DS will wear out and loses its effect eventually. Hence the statements by the high lamas that the ban will be lifted in five years’ time are timely as this will create the momentum for the ban to lift quickly.
When more and more are benefitted from Dorje Shugden practice, Dorje Shugden will become the mainstream practice. All DS lovers had created and should continue to create the causes for DS to flourish and remain in this World for a very long time. By then who will be bothered about the ban which has no basis from the very beginning?
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Thanks for all the passionate sharing of points of view!
There may be many possibilities for “how” the ban will be lifted. However one thing for sure is the ban will be lifted because of the faith, commitment and pro-active dedication of practitioners like those who have vigorously kept this website and forum alive and vibrant with reliable information and sincere discussions.
I have witnessed several cases where friends got to know about Dorje Shugden, the website and this forum. Without any prompting, they come to their own conclusion that it is impossible that HH would impose such a ban on Dorje Shugden practice without a bigger purpose that will eventually bring great benefit to all sentient beings. Therefore, any logical individuals who look at the whole picture can rationally deduce that the ban is created for a superior purpose and that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit. In fact, after learning from the website and forum discussions, these friends develop deep faith in Dorje Shugden.
Thus, like suggested by many who have already posted, we must continue to share knowledge on dorjeshugden.net and this forum. We must also continue to prompt more traffic into these spaces to spread the knowledge and understanding to enable educated practice and spiritual progress. This is aligned to the basic formula of Buddhadharma: Virtuous intention –> virtuous action –> merits –> attainments and eventually enlightenment :)
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I personally think that the ban can be lifted if everyone plays a part. The spread of Dorje Shugden is what's dear to HHDL's heart regardless what it appears to be. I truly believe that because I have faith in the Dalai Lama and my protector. Therefore, the more people benefit from this practice, the more reasons for the ban to be lifted simply because the cause for the ban is for DS to spread. This makes perfect sense to me.
I also think that China will be the main country to be practicing Dorje Shugden in future. This is from analyzing a few facts. 1. It was prophesized by Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. 2. China's hatred in HHDL is indirectly encouraging more Chinese to practice DS. 3. China being the world's most-populous country with over 1.3 billion people with Buddhism being the dominant faith. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#Religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#Religion)). 4. Kangxi Emperor was one of the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. The Chinese will have faith in DS because Kangxi Emperor is considered one of China's greatest emperor.
If the practice of Dorje Shugden in China start to spread far and wide, the ban will naturally be lifted.
Logically, if spreading DS is the main key to lift the ban, everyone plays a part and are able to contribute towards the lift of the ban. How? I can't quite figure out. However, I think that we can distribute brochures, share our knowledge, articles and DS websites on social media and other forms of media (movies even), we can create a buzz. We should not underestimate the power of social media. If it's not effective, why would big brand names and advertisers use them? Let's do our part for this wonderful protector by helping lift this ban through social media.
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If HHDL were to come right out and say he was wrong and that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and can cause no harm,..how would that make HHDL look? Perhaps him saying this will affect many to lose faith in Tibetan Buddhism as a whole because HHDL has become the face to represent Tibetan Buddhism. Therefore, I doubt HHDL will take this route.
I do think that the rest of the world will make a difference in bringing the ban down... the rest of the world who are educated in the controversies and issues who can see clearly due to the availability of information over the internet space.
Great empires have risen and fallen...this ban has caused much heartaches but it can disintegrate with strong unity and a knowledgable community of practitioners.
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The ban will definitely be lifted in the matter of time. I doubt HH Dalai Lama will come outright and 'acknowledge' that He 'wrong' in imposing the ban.
As a matter of fact, the ban has been watered down recently as compared to when it was newly imposed where HH Dalai Lama was so very 'strict' with practitioners who refused to give up their practice and they were asked to leave their mother monastery that sworn in to give up the practice.
Even as recent as the Kalacakra initiation where HH Dalai Lama said that people are free to choose if they would like to do Dorje Shugden practice, His tone of voice was also very light and jovial.
With the Dorje Shugden warriors being ever active and diligent in promoting Dorje Shugden practice, they are creating the causes for the lifting of the ban soon.
For the rest of us, we should contribute towards the multi-media medium as this is the fastest growing medium and can reaches out to millions of people around the world. Lets put our efforts and hands together towards the lifting of the ban.
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His Holiness set the ban for a purpose I feel the Dalai Lama will leave this world still promoting then ban for a greater picture to manifest. Despite the ban more and more people are learning about the power of Dorje Shugden and how it can benefit them. I feel for the Dorje Shugden lamas to carry on teaching the Buddha Dharma, sharing about Dorje Shugden practice, and more people get enrolled to the dorje Shugden practice , and we keep up the letters to the all over the world, share more all over the world it will chip away more at this ban. The Dalai Lama protest stance on Dorje Shugden is getting weaker by the day.
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Bans to me are kinda like FADs.. It comes on and then goes, but how fast it comes and goes will be dependant on the force behind it - people. People dictate and play within our own rules and games. And I agree with what Kris said.. Alot of times something is imposed but then after a while, it'll die off if there is no strong foundation to why it was originally imposed.. The bans that were imposed a long time ago are now no longer in place.
What would cause the ban on DS to go down? Education. Educating people with knowlege, to see and understand the illogical reasonings behind the ban. Why? Because ultimately, it will be the people who will have the power to overturn the ban. So then how do we educate people, how far this education reaches people, and how many people it reaches would cause the ban to go down. Maybe a debate..between high lamas or even sangha and lay practitioners, who are for and against the ban that can be broadcasted live worldwide might work. As long as the media picks it up and this is spread throughout the world like wild fire, it would ultimately cause the ban to vanish, or better still, make Dorje Shugden known worldwide.
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What would really make the ban go down is if there is enough people knowing what is the true nature of Dorje Shugden and they stand by it. these days, we see a lot of people supporting causes that they really believe in. If they see the cause of having Dorje Shugden around and that he and his practitioners is the real 'victim' around, their perceptions will change. Some of the most powerful Buddhist writers at this moment now are for the ban, which is why the ban is still in place but imagine if they are replaced with those who are neutral or against the ban. The current writers will grow old and retire and all that will remain are their names, but the upcoming ones will be the ones that will make this ban seem trivial and unimportant.
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I believe knowledge with time will cause the Shugden ban to go down.
Therefore, this website is extremely important. Most information about Shugden is mainly from here. I dare to say this website has more articles and resources then CTA or any tibetan website.
People in general are very interested in controversial subjects. And as they gain more knowledge, it will create more practitioner. Once Shugden grows big in that way, NOTHING the CTA or HH say will matter at the end. Look at CHINA, previously, the other countries were criticizing how CHINA operated in the past. BUT now, everyone looks up to them as they are the strongest in terms of population, economy and etc. Even the ministers in UK is banned from meeting HH. Why? because the government does not want to upset China in any way.
I am very confident that the ban will go down. We are no longer just followers, we need facts and we know what is the truth. PLUS we have the NET
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I do like what shugdenpromoter has written about why the ban will go down.
It is important there are websites like dorjeshugden.com that keeps advocating the benefits of Dorje Shugden and never gives up in demonstrating to the world that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened dharma protector. On top of that many methods to bring Dorje Shugden to others is clearly shown by this website from brochures to having a online shop to sending out letters to educate others.
Education is so pivotal as, because education stops misinformation and wrong views in its tracks. If people were enlightened about Dorje Shugden there is no way people can be swayed or misled by those who seem to have the power over what we can or cannot propitiate.
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There's only one thing that will do it - the Dalai Lama says he was wrong and recants every negative thing he's said about Dorje Shugden.
I can't see it happening any other way, otherwise, even if people are 'allowed' to practise again, Dorje Shugden will always have the stigma of being a worldly spirit and those who practise will be seen as non-Buddhists.
I have no doubts whatsoever that the ban will go down eventually when:
(a) The Dalai Lama goes into clear light;
(b) The Dalai Lama reverses the ban, either admitting that he was wrong or providing a sound enough reason why he imposed the ban which he is then reversing;
(c) the CTA ignores the ban and publicly declares that persecution based on religion is unlawful and passes a strong resolution to prosecute those found guilty (seeing that they cannot pass a law to remove the ban since the ban was never passed as a legal act of parliament);
(d) China and the CTA comes to a compromise and Tibet is "returned" to the government of the CTA as an autonomous region within China. (when this happens China is unlikely to allow to the Dalai Lama's dictate to apply to Chinese citizens practicing Dorje Shugden). Whichever occurs first.
What would cause the ban to be removed faster would be faithful Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world pushing hard to create awareness of the unjust ban and bringing about situations where high profile people like powerful political figures, well respected scholars, media personalities with large followings, famous actors, human rights activist, and such like question the ban and call for the CTA to answer. Unfortunately, at the moment the ban has not caught sufficient attention on a global scale and is seen as an issue within the family of Tibetan Buddhist practitioners. Spreading the practice explosively is a precursor to getting the attention and support of influential people around the world.
When the ban does come down, I don't think Dorje Shugden will have a stigma at all. Not when the high lamas and well respected people within the tibetan Buddhist community come out openly to declare that they too are practitioners of Dorje Shugden. Moreover, we only need to look at the Yamantaka practice now, remembering that Yamantaka too was taught of as a demon when Ra Lotsawa first introduced it.
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I believe knowledge with time will cause the Shugden ban to go down.
Therefore, this website is extremely important. Most information about Shugden is mainly from here. I dare to say this website has more articles and resources then CTA or any tibetan website.
People in general are very interested in controversial subjects. And as they gain more knowledge, it will create more practitioner. Once Shugden grows big in that way, NOTHING the CTA or HH say will matter at the end. Look at CHINA, previously, the other countries were criticizing how CHINA operated in the past. BUT now, everyone looks up to them as they are the strongest in terms of population, economy and etc. Even the ministers in UK is banned from meeting HH. Why? because the government does not want to upset China in any way.
I am very confident that the ban will go down. We are no longer just followers, we need facts and we know what is the truth. PLUS we have the NET
The ban cannot last. Why? because it's based on lies and hearsay. Since when can something that is based on superstition last? Perhaps it only works on Tibetans, but not for the rest of the world. The rest of the world identifies superstitions at a very fast rate and drop them just as fast as they pick them up. You're right -- this website is very important for anyone who wants to know more about Dorje Shugden - it is the first website that will show up and it is imperative for people who want to know more about Dorje Shugden - the correct information about Dorje Shugden, not the biased kind.
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I think that one of the reasons that would cause Dorje Shugden ban to go down would be us continuing to protest peacefully and fairly. Let's not mind what are the anti Shugden people are doing because we all know that one day, karma will definitely go after them, it's inevitable. Besides that, we must do whatever we can do promote Lord Dorje Shugden on various social media platforms, social media is becoming a very strong information platform.